Comedian James McCann Destroys Triggernometry

You're all touchy about Grenfell Tower. You're a good Catholic boy, aren't you, Jim? Yes, masturbating. I'm trying to stop that. How's that going? Not great. You've got to take back America. I believe in you. Take back America? Yeah. I'm not an Enoch Powell supporter. He was gay. What do you mean Enoch Powell was gay? I mean he was a gay man who did gay things. He was married to a woman his entire life. Of course. no married man could participate in homosex i love gay people big fan obviously the gay stuff has to stop but as people some of the best so you're in austin that's not gonna work sounds like people hate freedom on this podcast starting a business can be overwhelming you're juggling multiple roles designer marketer logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.nl. That's Shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. James McCann, welcome to Trigonometry. It's an honour and a privilege to be here. You said that way too fast. Yeah, I was ready. Thank you for having me on. Yeah, it's great to have you on. Yeah, I'm not going to get arrested in the UK from being on this show. Are you planning to go to the UK? One day. Well, then you don't know. I went last year. It wasn't that bad. I thought you could get away with more things than I thought I could get away with. You're all touchy about Grenfell Tower. Yeah, a little bit. Like really, every strata of society doesn't want to talk about Grenfell Tower. Yeah. And did you try and make jokes about this? Yeah, I did. I did a good five on Grenfell Tower. How did that go? Like a tower on fire. No, it's really like a national... It's not clear from the UK media from abroad that that has stayed with the UK people. But boy, you will think about it a lot. No one wants to talk about it. You say that it's like the N-word. It really takes the air out of a room. Did you do that as well? Did you do that? No, I left that one out. The Grenfell Tower I wanted to talk about immensely. You know, what is comedy but finding where the crack is in someone's... You find where the difficult, you know, the points in the body politic that have to be unspooled, and that's yours, I think. Really? Talking about all the mosques, that was fine. A lot of mosques. Really? That's interesting. People were happy to talk about the mosques. Compared to Grenfell Tower? Wow. They wanted to talk about the towers on those mosques. Those beautiful mosques. I did keep calling them beautiful mosques. That might have helped. That might have eased it. And what did you think of London when you were there? You said it wasn't that bad. What were you expecting and what was the reality? I thought it would be like Peckham over the whole thing. But it was really just localised to Peckham. They were very nice. And Peckham, by the way, great. Love Peckham. Peckham Plex, beautiful. I did go to the convenience store where you can buy a knife next to a ski mask. What do you call them here? What do you call them in the UK? a face covering. Not that kind of face covering. Not a ski mask. Yeah. Yeah, balaclava. Balaclava is next to the knives behind the counter. It's a convenience store. It's too convenient. You should have to go to two shops if you're going to murder people. But it was, I mean, it's beautiful. Great chicken. You guys don't like KFC over there. You look down on it. You've got proper chicken places. I wouldn't say we've got proper chicken places. We just... Oh, you've got the finest, finest chicken. We've got PFC. We've got all the knockoffs. What does P stand for? Probably. Peckham Fried Chicken. That's it. It's a great brand. It might be Pakistani. But the important thing is it's a great country and you're on the way back. Yeah? Maybe. Not so sure. But you're here in the US. You're Aussie originally, right? How did that happen? It was kind of an accident. I got offered a job and I got fired. a year and a half ago. And I was in Steubenville, Ohio, which is just outside of West Virginia on the Ohio River, unemployed. And three months of rent and no money. And then Shane Gillis said, you can come and open for me. And I moved to Austin. And it's been great. But it was very strange. I got the full poor American experience. That's not good, is it? Yeah, I don't want to be poor in America. I always say America is probably the best place in the world to be rich Yes Okay place and a good place to be medium income But a horrific place to be poor Is that about right? You haven't been on the bus yet No Oh I've been on the bus Greyhound bus? No In a city bus I took, because when I was skinned in like 2002 The first time I came to America And I took the bus in LA Yeah And I was the only white person on the bus. And they looked at me almost as if to say, how has this Jew ruined his life? I believe it. How have you fallen so far? You had all these advantages. There's been a mistake. Yeah. Whereas in the UK, public transport is very normal. Yeah. Rich people do it. Yeah. And it's nice. Yeah. It's kind of nice. Not as nice as it used to be. But anyway. The buses are beautiful. I mean, you guys really picked graphic design on the buses. That red bus in London. Love it. You can walk everywhere. I love that. Do you miss that in the US? Yeah. Yes. We need a walkable. You need to be able to walk places. Yeah. No, to have a body politic, to have people congeal and love their neighbour. You've got to meet them sometimes. You can't just be in your car all the time. I completely agree with you. Yeah. I think it's so important. You want to think. You go for a walk. Yes. And it's so interesting. Like, you talk to the Aussies and the Europeans, and you go to them, and you always say it low because it's kind of taboo because Americans think you're weird. You're like, do you miss walking? And they go, yeah, I miss walking. I do it. I try and do it here. It never ends great. But I have gotten to see a lot more of Spanish-style Austin, which I would never see otherwise. I would just drive from my little white suburban neighborhood to the place I work. But if I go for a walk, I have a fajita breakfast. I have a little weird pineapple drink. No one speaks English. It's great. But you never encounter that. You don't know what's out there if you are always in the automobile. So come back to the poor thing. Okay, yeah. In America. Yeah. We're going to do it. There are more workarounds here for being poor than people think. like for medical care, there are little hokey. If you keep asking and keep trying, you can get care as a poor person, I discovered. Specialists will see you for little money if you call 10 of them. But you have to have a hustle. You know what I mean? You have to really push for it. But it's out there. This thing of like it's a nightmarish system. They can hit you with a bad bill, but it's not like a third world country for the poor. But boy, we could do something about that. Why can't they do public transport? Why don't they want to? Because everyone wants to have their own car. But even in like liberal California, they tried building a high-speed rail between San Francisco and LA, and you'd think that would be the easiest thing in the world. They can't do it. It's billions of dollars over budget and it hasn't been built. They cannot will themselves to have a train. Why do you think that is? I don't know. You've been here and you know, you've been in a country where they really have it. We can't build anything anymore either. No. No, we can't. Rishi Sunak got rid of that high-speed link between the North and Birmingham. Yeah. You're going to build that other train, right? To build anything, basically, in Britain is like five times more expensive than anywhere else, because if there's some rare bat that happens to live near where you want to put the train tracks, you have to do a multi-million pound consultation. We've got a badger love. I love badgers. Is that it? Yeah, we love badgers. We love all animals in the UK. We do. sentimentalized animals like no other nation. Oh, yeah, yeah. You can kill people and no one will give a shit. But if you displace a badger, you're in trouble. Maybe they should say that they're grooming gangs for animals. Then people will talk about it. No, people will cover it up. What's happening with the... When I was there years ago, everybody knew about the grooming gangs. Liberals, Guardian readers would go, oh, yeah, the grooming gangs. That's real. Everybody acknowledges that there were grooming gangs. Nothing has ever been done about it. Everyone's been very quiet about it. Why? Well, there's an inquiry that is happening now and all the victims and survivors, a lot of them have resigned from it because they say the government isn't taking it too seriously and the government isn't taking it seriously enough because of the racial component, let's say. Right. Pakistani people from a very particular part of Pakistan are way overrepresented in these crimes. If you start addressing that seriously, you then blow the central ideological component out, which is we're all the same. Yeah. And they just can't handle it. America can address those. America has no pretense to everybody being the same. they've got five racial categories and they're very open to they're all different they know whose fault it is and for different i mean really you know white people take blame for some things and but you guys just clump all the non-whites into one right yeah bame how do i say that yes we don't do bame anymore because people realize it was kind of retarded but you've got uh you've got Asian. And Asian... Means something different. Asian means Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, etc. And like there's the Asian community. East of the Urals, everybody's Asian. Which is kind of weird because they all kind of hate each other. Like the Indians and the Pakistanis are not best friends. Historically, there are problems there. Yeah. But when they come to Britain, they're Asian. Great. It just seems like a wide cudgel to... It is. To deal with... Yeah, you got to deal with the grooming gangs. I think you'll figure it out. Why? You've got to. No? Why do you think we'll work it out? Stiff upper lip. That's about it. Are you worried? You're not convincing me. I'm trying to convince myself. I would like Britain to be great, but I don't see, I mean, how, you don't have very much land. You don't have very much, your military is very small. what are we hoping for for britain what is the dream that brexit could achieve what is like what is best case when nigel farage says we're going to make this a great place again what does that mean where is the growth opportunity is it just repatriation there's got to be other stuff i think what farage is talking about when he says makes britain great again is particularly under of the EU, we had to live and abide by certain laws and legislations which weren't in British interest. So by becoming independent, we could be the masters of our own destiny. You can make your small cheeses. This is the example. But is there hope that a factory will be built somewhere at some point? Well, this is the thing, you coming back to public transport and cars, right? In Europe and in Britain, especially, we have this thing called net zero, Yeah. Which is even the craziest liberals in America all think, all want a big car and want to be able to drive around and have electricity in the house and for it to be cheap and free and gas to be, you know, priced at as low as possible and all of that. Yeah. In Britain, we don't have that. In Britain, we want to make energy very expensive to save the planet. People were annoyed by the low emission zone, I did find. They were happy to talk about the low emission zone when I was on stage there. Grenfell Tower, not at all. Low emission zone, that started to be something people were. Acknowledging was a problem. No? It's not popular. You've got these very niche talking points about Britain. I wonder where you got them. I just stumbled around for two weeks and spoke to some people. And they talked about the low emission zone. There was a lot of people wanting to complain about the Whale Mission Zone. I heard that, who's the current Prince of Wales? The current Prince of Wales is William. I heard he got pegged. I don't believe it. I don't believe it, but that's what people are saying. That's like a nasty rumour about him that I found out about. I love Kate. Why do you like Kate? Charisma, aura. What's their not, do you not love Kate? Oh, I'm a fan. Really? Yeah. I'm a huge Kate fan. I don't think that her husband was pegged. I don't think she would marry a man who did that. I don't think she would do that. No, no, do I. It almost makes you wonder why you brought it up. I heard about it. I'm just saying. These are the things I heard about when I was in the UK. This is all I know about the UK. Yeah. It's that and the New Statesman podcast. The future king gets pegged. Yeah. Not true. Nasty rumor. Yeah. No one should even talk about it. Yeah. Well, I'm glad we're established that. Yeah. And the New Statesman podcast. We can't forget about that, which you love. Who's this? There's this lady who writes for The Atlantic now who interviewed Jordan Peterson. Helen Lewis. Yes. Now, we would disagree about almost everything. She's very good. She is very good. Yeah. She's interviewed me. I respect her even though, like you say, I don't agree with things. But she had a very, her and Stephen Bush had a very charismatic, when they were in charge of the New Statesman podcast, that was a great podcast. Everyone was having fun. It seemed like the Labor Party might be cool and groovy and people would like them. It didn't turn out that way, I understand. But this is all I know about Britain. I'm just throwing every British fact I know. But James, let's go back to America. Okay. Because your stand-up deals with a lot of America, your love of America, in particular the quirky little idiosyncrasies of this beautiful nation. Yeah. So what do you think of it? Do you love it? Are you American now? Are you America? I don't really believe in immigration and being able to become someone you weren't born as. but I love America. You don't believe in trans-positioning for immigration? Yes. Trans-culturalism. I am a cultural determinist. Yes. Look, it's a great country and I like college football and I like travelling around and all the beautiful American people but there is this gulf between them that I, to become American, feels. What's the gulf? It's the gulf of America. It's, I don't know. I think maybe as a Commonwealth person, some kind of irony. I don't want to... That's sort of like a dig. People often, you know, from the countries of the monarchy, we dig on America and they don't understand irony. They don't have the bleakness and the darkness that we have in our soul. They don't, though. That's factually correct. They try to. They give it a go sometimes. The hipsters in Brooklyn. Yeah, and Jews in America, they've got that sense of humor. Jews everywhere. Right. Nothing but nice things to say about the Jews' capacity for cynicism. It's big. Historically well-informed cynicism. But yeah, in the greater America, there is a Puritanism here, and like a childishness makes it sound bad, but there's like optimism and hope. I find that... It's very uncomfortable, isn't it? Yes. I don't know what to do with it. But it's also true. I mean, they have that, and then they've built a beautiful, huge powerful con yeah it's great it is great and britain must have had that once i'm sorry to turn it back but you guys have i mean you when you were running an empire were you like that no so when did it kick in when did all the cynicism start with the brits world war one i think what is the trenches it was you thought you were going to be home yeah yeah but yeah you won't well you won yeah but empiric victory though You held onto the empire after that one? For a bit. Yeah. And then World War II is what's healed it, right? You guys didn't even want the empire anymore. You lost the moral legitimacy in owning other countries. Yeah. That's a problem. Yeah. Do you think we should go back out there and reestablish what is ours I think that would be an interesting start for the not for the other countries that might be really bad for them but for Britain feeling of a purpose and a place in the world Yes. The, you, I mean, having lost India. Is India better off? Yeah, this will be good. Is India better off for having lost the British hand? You gave them railroads and infrastructure and you kept the peace between the Muslim and the Hindu. Is that not something to, is that not nice? Do you stop people burning their wives? Do they burn their wives? Yeah. This is like my favorite British, you know, like they go to a wife, there's like some commander of the British army and the Indians start burning their wives and they go, you can't do that. And the Indians go, this is our culture. And the British go, it's our culture not to let people burn their wives. It was after the man had died, the woman would have to be burned to join him, I think. Like the Vikings. Yeah. Instead of a boat. Yeah. Say a lady. Most days for us are jam-packed. Meetings, shoots, research, script reviews, everything happening at once. 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That's, look, let's talk about the empire. You are one of our former colonies. That's right. Yeah. And do you feel a sense of gratitude to us? Every day. every day with my hot water bottle and my cup of tea and my father christmas instead of santa claus and yeah who wouldn't it's very not the british and when i go there boy it feels like home in the uk because i'm looking at you and you look a little irish to me james mccann it's in there but even then what is ireland if not i mean they're not as open to saying some nice things happened with the British. Yeah. Obviously Ireland for the Irish and up the Ra and all the good stuff. But we've got to acknowledge that there was given to me. Someone's been hanging out with Shane. Shane does not endorse sectarian violence. You do that all by yourself. Well, I would like it if kneecap were not addicted to cocaine so visibly. I've never met them, but everything I see from them, And they look very... I don't think that's the spirit of Irish independence, is it? Just to be gacked out of your mind all the time? The thing about Niqab that I find very troubling is their music is good. Yeah, it's great. So it doesn't matter the crazy shit that they say. Well, I'm not saying it doesn't matter. It matters. But also, their music is good. Well, that's true of all Irish revel... This is where Hamas have a big problem, long term. The music game. No good song. Yeah. ISIS, not one banger. Well, some explosions. But, yeah, the Irish have great. Sinead O'Connor. Yeah. Do you know Seamat? No. She's great. Beautiful Irish songbird. She's a big... Graham Norton has a sort of lyrical quality to his work. I'm not sure he's an up-the-rock-an-a-guy, but, yeah. I reckon if you get Graham Norton after a couple of drinks. Well, we could talk about sectarian violence with him. Wouldn't that be fun to go on the Graham Norton show and get... You know, they bring you alcohol. Yeah. That's my dream, is to have eight Guinnesses and by the end be going, wouldn't that be fun? I think that would be fun. I mean, it would be a fantastic way to end your career in this. I think they might edit it out. Yeah, yeah, and edit you out. Shame. Shame on the BBC. Why does it exist? You've got state media. Yeah. Get rid of it. Here's the thing about the BBC, which every single person in the UK will say, I love the BBC. I loved what it was. I loved the comedy. Let's be fair. The comedy the BBC produced and Channel 4, those sitcoms were the best. They did a very good job for a very long time. They did the best job. They're better than all American sitcoms. The Simpsons is... You've done nothing to compare with The Simpsons, but I will say you've done a very good job otherwise. What about Fawlty Towers? It's fine. What? What? Excuse me. It's fine. Don't come over here in my Airbnb. be with its beautiful design. I'm not a Fawlty Towers defender. I think it's fine. Okay. What about the other Monty Python stuff? Life of Brian. Great. Ah, you shut up now, haven't you? No, no, I mean, it's fine. I mean, obviously, deeply anti-Catholic, but otherwise, fine. Ah, sweet. What about the downsides, though? How do you speak that way about the emerging religion in your country? as the Church of England withers on the vine. It's over for them. Are you covering that? I know you asked that at the end about what's the one thing we should talk about. We will. I'll save it. You kind of already gave it away. Church of England is collapsing and no one's talking about it. All the Africans have just left. Well, the Church of England basically is like become uber woke. Sure, yeah. And emerald. Ladies. You're letting ladies perform the priestly rites? Damn. Shut that down. You're a good Catholic boy, aren't you, Jim? Yes. Well, I mean, obviously full of a lot of problems. Full of sin. I think dogmatically I'm on the page. I try to be. A lot of problems. Going on the road, going to hotels, being all alone, masturbating is trying to stop that. How's that going? Not great. I mean, they give you a Bible so you can read it afterwards and cleanse yourself. Or before. And the Book of Mormon in this country. Do they give the name? There's a Book of Mormon? There's often a Book of Mormon next to Gideon's Bible. Do you not know that? No, I've never seen a Book of Mormon. Someone's never been suicidal in an American hotel room. No, it's right there. It's amazing because there's so many Mormons in this country, but in England it's seen as this kind of weird... The only thing, if you say to a person in the UK about the Mormons and they say, name one thing, they'll say the musical, the Book of Mormon. Yeah. which is great. It's an American-centric religion. It's all about manifest destiny and how good America is. So I can understand if you guys are unhappy about that. You've got to take them back. You've got to take back America. I believe in you. Take back America. Yeah. Civil War number four. I'm guessing there was a third one in between. Maybe a second. It was yours. You had the right to it. They beat you. You can beat it. You try it again. You had that, what, 18-something war. You tried to take America back once and it didn't pan out. You think this is a good moment right now? They're looking for leadership. They're looking for leadership. They say no kings. They can have one. Keir Starmer. That's not who I'd put forward is the guy. Why do you all hate him? We don't. He's the least popular man though. But see, this is the thing. It's like no one actively hates Keir Starmer. Right. The country's just gone to shit, and he happens to be in charge, and he can't do anything to not make it work. Is it noticeably more shit than it was 10 years ago? Yeah. Caveat. Yes, it is. There are people who hate Keir Starmer, and they're all on the left. Okay. What I'm saying, though, is, like, I guess what I'm saying is it's not actually his fault. Right. He's just a boring guy. Who can't fix the problems of the country because they're very hard to fix. I mean, how would you fix any of the problems? all of the britain's grandeur is built you have a you had a huge empire before the empire you were what a a pirate state there was nothing going for in terms of world importance before the 1500s what did britain there was no great towers there were no great marble things there was no top hats and mary poppins type behavior it's all built on the wealth of empire and you give up the empire and you go why is it all falling apart it's because you're not extracting wealth from africa You think we should bring back colonialism? I think you have to choose between being a great country and accepting a mediocre place in the world. And sadly, that would require a lot of violence. But you're going to become the Singapore of Europe? Switzerland's already done that. You're not going to get all the banking. No. Switzerland has an independence to it that the Brits don't even want. You're so pleased to be. You have European continental ideology. So who should we colonize, do you think? It's a great question. I haven't decided yet. Certainly Normandy you have a historical right to. Yes. Absolutely. And Brittany. It's in the name. I mean, that's what I meant to say. They still play bagpipes there. What, in Brittany? Yeah. That's a reasonable excuse. Henry V takes that? Am I right? You're testing our history in the way. I am. They don't know about any of that here. I'm excited to get to speak to anyone who knows the name of more than one king. How about Henry VIII? Henry VIII, look. Terrible guy. Is that because you're Catholic and he set up the Church of England? Yes. He set up the Church in England. Elizabeth sets up the Church of England. Really? I believe I'm getting that right. I'm being scowled at by a producer. Check it out. Check it out. Because he's got a laptop. I think I'm right. I'm pretty sure that Henry established the Church of England. He was the first head of the Church of England. He maintains that they're still part of the Catholic Church, but that he happens to be the head of that church, specifically in England. He doesn't break with them on doctrinal points, and I think he acknowledges papal supremacy in the rest of the church. Possibly, I mean, do you know the Blake poem, the song Jerusalem. Yeah, of course. And did those feet in ancient time. This is the conspiracy that Christ in his youth goes to Britain and establishes the church there before he establishes it in Jerusalem and thereby run. And thus there is some sort of weird clandestine British supremacy that he can lay claim to. That does sound very like some of these American religions who believe that Jesus... You guys started it. Once again, they're just aping the British cultural trend. I think I'm getting all of that right. This isn't true, right? I think this is all true. No, no, not that bit. Go on, Billy. Thank you so much. Where are you reading that? Fact-checked. Where are you reading that? Get that on Wikipedia and do a little deeper dive. I'm not accepting your chat GPT take on this. Fact-checked failed. No, I'm right. No, you can't just say that. That is so American. This is the problem with the modern world, right here. I'll be vindicated by history. No, this is an American. You present them with facts about their crazy little conspiracy theory, and their rebuttal to you is... I've turned my phone off to be polite. I can't look it up. No, I'm right. No, I'm right. I think I'm right. This is the modern world. I know you clearly do. I think I'm right. It doesn't matter how many times you say it. The people will decide. But see... May history judge me. History. We are judging you right now. We are history. Yeah. We sit here in judgment. I think I'm right. There's four people in this room that don't agree with you. Well, you're all British. You're all invested in this Church of England. No one is not invested in the Church of England. I don't think anyone... Your monarch is the head of the religion. Surely it's still you can be executed for not being... I don't think there's anything you can do in Britain to get executed. I don't want to talk about it too much. I want to leave that to the end. But boy, do you not think the Church of England collapsing is the big problem ultimately facing your country? You were run on a state religion. You had a real thing going for yourselves. Do you know what? Genuinely, that is a major part. The fact that we don't have a religion which leaves a vacuum at the heart of culture. Yeah. Which therefore means that there's nothing that we all agree on. Whereas here, they do have the Constitution, and there is like a weird love of the Constitution here that I've never encountered anywhere else. Like the Founding Fathers are sort of saints. You don't go against the Founding Fathers. The Constitution is a beautiful document and must be respected and can't just be removed. I mean, you guys don't even have it. No, we have an unwritten Constitution. You have an unwritten Constitution. Which is not a Constitution. And we've got one, but it's very boring. It's just, you know, how much does the Governor-General will get paid per year. There's not a lot of rights enclosed in the Australian Constitution, except by like the penumbra of, well, they have a freedom of religion, so freedom of speech is implied. Do you want a freedom of speech in the UK? Yeah. Do you want that enshrined by law, or do you want that as a norm? Everything is always better as a norm. Yes. because they would disagree here yeah the problem is though that um i think as an having things as a norm is much better sure but the question is is that sustainable because norms are subject to change and laws aren't right but it's much better like my view is it's much better to have a society when no one kills each other than having a law against murder Do you know what I mean? Yes. And to the extent that you can achieve that, that's better. But you've lost the norm of free speech in the UK. Correct. Yes. So what is the, I mean, how would you get that back? Don't know. I think the only way is via the law. I think the only way is to enshrine it in law and then to have it tested in the court of law. Or maybe we could stop teaching three-year-olds that if someone said something that hurt their feelings, that's a violation of the, you know. Losing the schools is big. Right. Yeah. That's where all of this shit comes from. And there have been attempts to sort of wrestle that. But like Toby Young spent the last 15 or whatever years trying to take over. He was trying to start up charter schools. Is this great? How do you know so much about the UK? It's weird. It's on the internet. I spoke to a lot of people when I was there trying to figure out. Also, I like the Toby Young book. He used to have the funniest articles in The Spectator every time. So I looked into what he was doing. and then it seems like, I mean, the right was not really interested in holding on to the institutions anywhere for the last 100 years. We just let the universities go. We let the schools go. We let the church go. Maybe that's pivoting back now, but I don't, I mean, in America, boy, the right is trying to march through the institutions in a big way. But is that? Is it working? I don't know. Certainly, it's making a lot of people very unhappy. and there's big protests and the new york times is going delivered but that's what that's what that whole project 2025 thing is is let's stack they call the deep state you just have the civil service there's a much nicer cheerier name for it but there's is there any sense that i mean this all right this is weird because reform is probably going to win this next election we spoke about this briefly if nothing if the election's held today and they don't change you know if they don't get preferential voting instead of first past the post and all these things all right then you have three, 400 reform guys in Parliament. The whole civil service is still whatever that Oxbridge BBC Guardian Reading whatever that thing is The blob The blob You call it the blob Yeah I like the blob But how do you is there any how would you change the blob That's the real fight, isn't it? That is the real fight because it needs what is called root and branch reform. Yeah. Because you can't implement policies because what the minister does is the minister, let's say, of health presents it to the civil servants. but if the civil servants don't want to enact the policy, then the strategies they use is they don't refuse to do it. They just make it really difficult, make it slow, tedious, arduous. So by the time it gets through, instead of taking weeks or a month, it will take months if not years. This is yes minister and yes prime minister, which is a great... See, as a country, you're very comfortable with... You had a sitcom explaining that that's how it worked and then Americans, they go, there's a deep state and people freak out and go, no, there's not. It's like, well, of course there's people running the government that have jobs who aren't just elected, who are there before and after. But the right, I mean, Thatcher sort of steps out of wanting to even attempt to remedy that. They just go, we'll make government smaller. We won't, we'll give government less to do. We won't try and keep government as it is, but put our people in there instead of the other party's people. But is there any, I mean, are people, is Nigel Farage trying to do that? Yeah. Yeah. No, part of what they want to do is cut the number of civil servants, get rid of all the ones that are ideologically possessed, so to speak, et cetera. But the actual biggest challenge for reform, you talk about 300, 400 guys in parliament, is where do you find 300 to 400 people? Who are good people, who are conscientious people, who don't have a scandal rating? There's no way. Well, that's part of it. But you also then have to be charismatic because this is the difference between the US and the UK. President Trump needed like 10 people to be the face of his team. And he could pick them. He can pick his cabinet from the general population. But no, but I mean even prior to forming the government, to get re-elected, what he needed was him, Tulsi Gabbard, RFK Jr., Elon at the time, J.D. Vance, right? I probably missed him. Vivek was also involved. You had these like six, seven people. And that's what you needed to win. Then you get into government. You can appoint whoever you want. Yeah. What Nigel Farage has to do is have three to 400 people who are actually capable of getting elected in their own right under the reform umbrella. Yeah. And that, and finding three to 400 people who can do that. Yeah. That's the real challenge. You know how at the beginning of every year people say this is a year things change then by February everything looks the same. If you've been sitting on a business idea for months or even years 2026 is your line in the sand. 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It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. There's not an easy pipeline. in Britain, I wouldn't think. Well, so you're going to get, you know... They've got a lot of, like, puritanical small colleges here. They've got a lot of... It's a big country. They've got a whole... I don't want to say right wing, but they've got a right wing infrastructure of academia and journalism that is not... You have an aristocracy, you have the Tories, but they don't seem to be a part of this reform thing. You seem to have sidestepped them. Yeah. Isn't that sad? No, because... No, the Conservative Party isn't really kind of fit for purpose, if we're being honest, because the problem is, exactly, he has an allergic reaction to them. But it's 14 years that they were in power and they did, you know, they did nothing. In fact, they just made the problems worse. And in the words of Kemi Badenoch, the current leader, who was in government at the time, we talked right and governed left, which basically admits that they gaslit a nation, particularly when it comes to immigration i mean yeah the immigration thing is it's a big issue you could say that um but i don't understand well i didn't want to talk about enoch powell there was a rest is history podcast about him recently they've done enoch powell and what they don't acknowledge is that the things that he they do very briefly they acknowledge that a lot of what he said has come to pass. I'm not an Enoch Powell supporter. I've got to say that. He was gay. You guys didn't want to believe that Enoch Powell was gay. But I'm telling you, if you look that up. Okay, Billy, look that up. What do you mean Enoch Powell was gay? I mean, he was a gay man who did gay things. He was married to a woman his entire life. Of course. No married man could participate in homosex. that's not the problem that's not the problem with enoch power people have a right to be attracted to people of the same sex but the crux of that speech that is the rivers of blood speech seems to be he's worried about the native population of britain's response to the immigration and that does seem to be taking place there is like there is a there looks like from outside there's a groundswell of anti-immigrant feeling there is well that's rough but i don't i don't think it's fair to say that that's what Enoch Powell was worried about. He was worried about the way that, at least I understand it, the fact that the native population would be put in a position of relative weakness in relation to immigrants. So there's that expression that the, whatever, the black man will have the whip hand over there. But I think when he closes in that speech, he's saying the thing to be worried about is the response of white Britons as they have that feeling, not that it'll take place. I think he's doing an odd... There's more nuance in that speech than I think. I'm not convinced about it. Francis, when you said to me, let's get James McCann the comedian on, I think he'd be great. I did not think we'd be talking about Enoch Powell being gay. Was Enoch Powell... Oh, we've gone quiet over Enoch Powell being gay, have we? So, allegedly, one of his tutors said he had a homosexual affair, but then someone else obviously didn't have a homosexual affair. He had many what? So, just from the people who won't be able to hear that, allegedly, one of his tutors said he had a homosexual affair, but then someone else said he just hadn't met any girls yet, which is always the excuse, really, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, gay guys do meet a lot of girls. And also as well. Why is his gayness otherwise relevant? Because I think that's why you guys hate him, because you're such a homophobic country, and you won't listen to the nuance of what he was saying in that speech because of his homosexuality. And I think that's wrong, and you should be more open. Well, you're a Catholic. You should think that's right. I don't know if you know this. There's a lot of gay guys in the Catholic Church. I love gay people. Big fan. Obviously, the gay stuff has to stop. But as people, some of the best. Some of the best. So back to Enoch. So you think... That's exactly what I didn't... You know what? There's people watching it going, I knew this. I finally, finally, they're talking about Enoch Powell. Well, you guys, you weren't able to have a coherent conversation about immigration for ages. Yeah. And then, like, I mean, all of Europe has done this. And then they seem to be overreacting. I don't like the alternative for Deutschland. No, I mean, that doesn't seem nice. I would like a nice centre-right government who can have a normal amount of immigration so that people don't get really angry. But this is the problem, right? Because in Britain, we had a nice centre-right government, which was the Tories, who governed like they were completely left-wing, who left the borders open, who allowed illegal immigration on a scale, I mean, the scale of it, I don't know if you heard me say this, but the year I came to Britain, which is 95, 96, depending on when you start counting, 55,000 people a year came to the UK legally. Yeah. Applied for a visa, came with a passport, blah, blah, blah. That's the number of people who come to Britain illegally right now, every year. That's the scale. And the legal number is several times greater. So more people came to Britain legally in the last 20 years than the entire history of Britain. More people in 20 years than in 2000 years. Isn't that an important part of your culture to be swamped by people who weren't born there and then slowly integrate them? You had the Vikings, you had the Normans. The Vikings didn't immigrate to Britain. You had the Anglo-Saxons, you had the Romans. No, no, no, this is all complete bollocks. These are all violent waves. Of course. Well, this is the nicest invasion you've ever had. I mean, as far as the invasions of Britain go, this one is pretty smooth. If you view it as immigration, terrible failure. If you think of it as an invasion, it's really nice. It's pretty decent. Never before has an invasion had so much back and forth and meal sharing and beautiful films made about it. Sexual assault levels are not what you'd expect from a Viking horde. Again, grooming gangs, so bad. But if that's the extent of the rape that's happening across from a wave of invasion, I mean, the people of Germany, when the Soviets were coming in, they would have dreamed for levels of rape like that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, also, when the Soviets came over, the Germans didn't give them benefits and stays in four-star hotels. You might have to get rid of all the benefits. Yeah, we might. That's sad. Well, you know, it is and it isn't, because I've always said this as an immigrant myself. I don't really understand why people who are not citizens of the country would receive access to the benefits. Well, it's sad to watch someone die of an illness that you could fix. Sure. I would exclude healthcare from that personally. But what I'm saying is if you can't sustain yourself in the country to which you've immigrated, then you should go to your country. Yeah. Or you should go to your country. I mean, in Australia, this is never the conversation is about benefits and immigrants and things because we have rich immigrants. That's that we're facing. I don't know of a country in the northern hemisphere that's having this, but it's quite hard to get to Australia if you're poor. I mean, there's a big sea and there's a lot of policemen in the sea. But we've got very wealthy people from India and China coming and they they can support themselves, but they also take, you know, housing. The housing market is flooded with new arrivals. We've got hundreds of thousands of people showing up and we can't build houses quick enough. And there's still the unease, even though there's not the benefit conversation. There's still a sense of displacement. And I think Australia is getting pretty rowdy. I haven't been there for it, but it looks like they're not happy. You know what I always found interesting about Australia is that on the one hand, you've got this macho sporting culture, like, you know, the bloke, the Aussie bloke. I represent perfectly. Absolutely. Look at you. You're a big hunk of man, James. But you've also, you went pretty woke and a bit. Doo-doo. Yeah. No, but this is Kangaroo, D.H. Lawrence. He picks this as a problem almost 100 years ago, I think. Really? Yeah, we've always been. It's an urban place. It's a cosmopolitan society. We've got five cities. No one lives in the middle. Some people live in the middle. They're great people. I love and respect them. but as a percentage, it's like 80% urban. And it's all suburbs that go on forever. So you're going to get, I don't want to be, again, deterministic about this, but that breeds a certain kind of, you know, success looks more effeminate when you don't have land and farming and all the things I don't want to do. Can we have countries there? I mean, isn't what's going to be required to stop these immigration problems so beastly that it's is it worth it this is sort of camp of the saints type territory but uh you know i mean we're talking i mean in europe they're talking about putting people on trains and shipping them out and in this country they're rounding people they're stopping you on the street and they're bundling you into a van and you have to go over there and this is this is not an easy watch no one likes no one is a big fan of what actually getting on top of immigration looks like in the airplane age. Yeah, I don't know about no one, but I get your point, which is... Sorry, a small number of... No, I don't know if it's a small number. What I see from the American right is there are a lot of people that are not only comfortable, but are like delighted, right? Which is fair enough. If your country has been invaded, as you described it, with millions of people, I understand why people in that moment start to prioritize solving the problem more than their compassion. And that will happen naturally when that's the situation. But your point, I think broadly is correct, which is the bulk of the general public believe in a border, but also don't want to see the things that are now happening for that border to exist. Which is why it's better to have a border in the first place, is what I would argue. Yeah. But I will say, I mean, I'm meeting many, I don't know, right-wing luminaries in America. In conversation, I don't see anybody comfortable with kids being split up or people bundled into vans or whatever. On the internet, I see, I felt this about the Charlie Kirk thing, where there were all these people online going, it's good, we love killing our enemies. I didn't meet anyone who actually felt that way. I see people do it, you know, on their Twitter account do it, and that gets very magnified. But to what extent are these people actually existing in the world? I totally take your point, but the counter argument would be, I remember a hell of a lot of people that I was friends with in 2015 going, I don't know, anyone who voted Brexit the following year. And I'm going, well, that's not necessarily a reflection of what the sentiment is. It might be a reflection of who you speak to. You see what I'm saying? I do. And I mean, the evidence is that there are increasing numbers of people on both left and right in this country and in others that think political violence is justified. Yeah. I mean, they've always felt that in America. yeah like you guys the brits they really you guys were taxing tea and they started killing you saying you can't be here anymore we're running it ourselves and then america they always got we don't like political violence but all their greatest treasured historic memories are active the civil war is an act of political violence yeah and how many presidents have been assassinated or shot six they don't know two of them might have been poisoned Four were killed definitely, but six maybe. Oh, I thought you said 46. I was like, is this like when he said Enoch Powell was gay? He was gay. Why are you looking Look it up Jamie Church in England Enoch Powell Too or poisoned Maybe Who I don know JFK definitely wasn poisoned Unless it was very mildly sometime before. Right. But I think there's two suspected poisonings. The thing is, is not only is America violent politically, America is just a very violent society like you look at the movies like you for instance look at there's some great aussie movies by the way right they're not like three yeah i was gonna say yeah lantana which one lantana i haven't seen lantana um well peter weir well he did a couple of great ones and the aussie director peter weir mad max 2 yeah great movie but they're not violent really they're not mad max 2 is kind of violent yeah no but that's in america i was also gonna say chopper but that totally undermines It's very violent. Yeah, undermines the argument. Carry on, mate. Wake in fright. The whole exploitation movie. We've destroyed the premise of your argument, but go ahead and make it. I'll accept it. Okay. Goodwill. But American movies are highly violent. They're some of the most violent. It's just every movie, American movie, seems to have violence running through it. This is a very violent society. So the murder rate, the homicide rate, is here as five times what it is in Britain? In places, yeah. If you look closer at those numbers in some places, that number's very low here. I don't want to go into it. Why have you clammed up about that? What he's saying is rates of violence are higher in certain areas than in others. Yeah, in the Hamptons, there's not a big murder rate. Right. Right. In certain parts of St. Louis, boy, watch out. So you don't want to talk about this, but you besmirch a good name of Enoch Powell. Your words, not mine. I think Enoch Powell had a lot of problems. I didn't know I was coming on the Philo Enoch podcast. You're the one that's championing him. Yeah. I said he was gay and wrong. Gay and nuanced, I think. He was nuanced. And gay. As many of the great, I mean, they know about style. New year, new systems, right? This is the time when we all look at the messier parts of our business and think there has to be a better way. And there is. 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Bumming each other. No. No? The legs. The what? It was shameful to have sex in the bottom. So they would have sex with the legs. You would push the legs together of the young men. Only a Catholic would know about this. You don't know about intercural lovemaking? No. There is nobody I've ever met who knows about intercural lovemaking. Yes, there are. They've been keeping it quiet around you. They've been looking at your thick, beautiful legs. And they've gone, I don't give the game away. Intercural lovemaking. I hope I'm saying that right. It's the only one that I think I might have got wrong. Church in England, for sure. But it's so intercural lovemaking. I don't intercural lovemaking in the Church of England nowadays, let me tell you. Really? No, I'm joking. So, you're in Austin? That's not going to work. I'm in Austin. I'm in Austin. He is in Austin. You're going to need a better transition wherever you're going. I like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know where I was to go. This is like Theo Vaughn. Remember the first time we interviewed Theo Vaughn? Yeah. We just finished our first ever Rogan episode. On that episode, we were kind of excited to be there. Yeah. So we were like, ah. So Joe was like, oh, do you guys smoke weed? Gave us a joint so that we'd chill out a little bit. Yeah. And then we went home and interviewed Theo Vaughn, completely stoned off our heads. And then did a bit of intercural lovemaking. He wouldn't go for that funny business. No. That's why he's got the mullet. Yeah. Lady on the back, fella on the front. Take your pick with the leg. Business up front, party up back. Business and pleasure. But anyway, it was a pretty crazy interview. And crowned by him saying, you guys have, we call it autism, which is one of the most viral clips of trigonometry ever. To this day, we get people coming up to us saying that. You guys have, we call it autism. This has got the same feeling, this episode. I don't think I have autism. I don't think you guys have autism. I'm not saying you have autism. No. I'm saying you're like the... I'm making you feel autistic. I mean, you've got something. I think I'm just on my... Do you think the spike in low-level autism is something to do with the fact we're all on our phone now for four hours a day? I think ADHD, definitely. Yeah. Because if you think about what a mobile phone is, it's a permanent distraction tool. Yes. This is weird. So it would therefore make sense that your ability to concentrate is severely diminished with one of them in your pocket. Yes. So we've got to get rid... That's why I got the small phone. to help me wean off being on a phone. I don't want to be on it. Does the size of the phone make a difference? I mean, not really. I got a black and white one that just didn't work very well. It had like a Kindle screen and a, you know, it just, you do need a phone to function. Right. This is, do you know Ivan Illich? Yes. He wrote Tools for Conviviality. No, ah, yes, the same name as the Tolstoy story, story but it's also a um also a writer who writes about he's dead now but he wrote about technology and that a tool can be good in the first fight you know you get the car and that's great um and then you build a society for the car and that's dreadful because we're all in traffic and we've changed the way that everybody lives so the tool can get out of control new polity shout out mark barnes he introduced me to this idea and they got a great magazine on it but the phone at first the phone is great you can do everything with the phone and then we build the whole society for the phone you can't get from A to B without a phone you can't no one has a map no one is able to give directions the signage on the freeway is dreadful if you don't have GPS now so how do you live without a phone you can we live in a society where it's almost impossible to live without a mobile phone right in a way that 20 years ago it was all built different yeah so how do you get rid of it now you can't you right but we've got to have some so it meet us halfway, phone making companies, that if you want it to not destroy your life, that should also be an option. You should be allowed to live in a society without having a technology that's making you a worse person that everybody knows that. But for them, the more you are on your phone, the better it is for them. So that's the real issue. Yes, I'm open to the government stepping in, having a special government phone. Maybe not. Zoram Amdadi for phones. Yeah. I don't hate him. Why not? He's charismatic. That's a terrible reason. Isn't it? Yeah. I mean, Hitler was charismatic, James. It's a problem that I have, that I love charismatic people. I don't think Bill Cosby did it. How could he? America's dad. I don't want to believe. You don't want to believe? He did it. But it hurts to believe. You don't want to. Jimmy Savile. People didn't want to believe that about Jimmy Savile. Raised millions for spinal charities. Gary Glitter, who I think is still at large doing terrible things, but what a songwriter. They still play his music during the Super Bowl. It's a great song. Yeah. Ringo's The School Bill. You remember in Joker, the original? I never watched it. Rock and Roll Part Two, when he was dancing down the steps. There was controversy that Gary Glitter made money out of that as well. And it's an iconic scene in modern cinematic history. What a song. Finally, we've reached the subject of pedophilia. Francis is in his element. this is his favourite subject who's being a they keep accusing do you think alright the Charlie Kirk assassination did get people to stop talking about that letter that Trump wrote to Epstein with the drawing on it yeah the drawing is unsettling the boobs are not big enough did you feel? did I feel the boobs? when you saw the picture of the boobs yeah did you think those are quite small that wasn't the first thing that was not my first thought no to go through my head Well, if they were huge boobs, he would be vindicated as just being a man who loved women. But the boobs are very small on the drawing. Which tells us... He likes a child's physique. What was going on on the island? They were buddies. They were hanging out. I was hurt when the boobs were too small on the drawing. You guys didn't get upset by that? I'd just like to remind everybody James is a comedian. He's not alleging that the President of the United States is in fact a pedophile. People keep alleging it. I mean, Elon did. I'm not alleging it. Elon tried to walk it back a little bit. He did. It's not the sort of thing you can walk back very easily. No, no, it isn't. I would like an explanation for the small boob. I might be worth bearing that in mind after everything you've just said. If we ever interview President Trump, we'll be sure to ask him. Make him bigger. dissuade the notion that he doesn't seem like a pedophile to me he doesn't act like wait but but the size of boobs is not necessarily correlated with that's the sort of thing he should say like i remember when i was at school i'm not going to say her name because it's kind of embarrassing but that i was 14 there was a 14 year old girl at my school who had absolutely giant tits. Yes. Right? So that's not proof of anything. I've debunked your theory. Well, that's what the far left would be saying if the drawing had big boobs, if the birthday card was booby. But since it was not booby, we have to accept that there is a symbolism to a small boob. Separate from the real world, there is a visual language of a small boob. James, you cling to your unsubstantiated theory. I think I'm four for four. No, you're not. You're not. You're not. Enoch Powell wasn't gay. Yes. The church, Henry VIII was the supreme leader of the, or whatever, the Ayatollah of the Church of England. I said he was. Yes, in the Church of England. Yes. No, the Church of England. Let's look up how deep that break went and what happened under Elizabeth and whether or not there was a shift under her. Right. And then this whole thing with the small boobs. They were small. I'm not denying their size. I'm just saying that's not evidence of Peter Philip. I'm saying that if I was writing a birthday card. Well, maybe you like big boobs. Maybe you like small boobs. There is, look, some men just- Let's not pretend that's not an open political question at this point and a difficult one. The Trump administration was in real trouble before that assassination. I'm not saying anything out of sorts. Every comment on all the Trump pictures on Instagram was released, the Epstein files. That's gone quiet now after the small boobs. seems like it could have gotten bigger but it went smaller i just want answers i'm just asking questions okay candace it's been great having you on the show i will need to see if candace owens is vindicated about what bridget mccrion being a fella yeah which she probably won't be no but if she is she's got to get the pulitzer prize her career can now only go one of two ways as it has to either end or she's celebrated as the greatest journalist of modern times. Isn't that an exciting historical moment to find ourselves in? It is. No. You don't want Candace Owens to be... No. It's the most mental thing I've ever heard. Probably. What do you mean probably? Almost certainly. This is what happens when you spend too much time in America. Yeah. This is what everyone in America is like. Like, look, I know that this is probably true, but what if this? What if the aliens... She's thrown a Hail Mary. Yeah. And if that, it's a wild haymere. There's nobody at the other end of the field, James. That's what the testing will establish, whether or not there's someone at the other end of the field. She's had two kids. So they say. What do you mean? I'm just saying I like the narrative, I like the charisma, I like the story. Let's find out. Let's keep an open mind. Mate. I thought this was an open-minded podcast. I thought this was a podcast where people... It's in the bio. Isn't that the point? We're exploring dangerous ideas. Candace Owens is exploring a dangerous idea, maybe a mistaken idea. But don't we love that she gets the freedom to explore? I love people having freedom. Sounds like people hate freedom on this podcast. I'm just saying let's find out. I'm not saying one thing or the other. I think I'm in the clear. I don't think I've said anything that will get me in trouble. I think what you said about Enoch was positively blasphemous. I don't consider him to be a saint, unlike some people on this podcast. I just think we should all look more closely at the difficult historical questions. James? Yeah? What's the one thing? And we're not talking about this question. I hesitate to ask this question. Collapse of the Church of England. I think that's really fundamental. You're going to be a Catholic country again, and while I celebrate that, I think it's weird and I think it's odd that no one's talking about the total coax of the Church of England. The pews are empty, doctrinal fractures ripping through the, whatever they call that conference. The pews aren't empty. I go to a church in London, which is a Church of England church. The pews are not empty. I'm glad they've got one. That's anecdotal. You were against me using anecdotal evidence before. I think if we look at the census numbers, it's not strong. It's true. and it was all done in the hope that they could connect with the youth, and it didn't happen. The youth turned away, and the baby boomers got to feel hip with the guitar music, and the lady up there. This is a huge... I just don't know why no one's talking about the collapse of the Church of England, because it is statistically happening. Catholics are holding on. They're losing South America. People should talk about that. The evangelical thing in South America is... I see no one really reflecting on that in a meaningful way. But it suits the South American temperament. How? Because they're histrionic, emotional people. Stereotypically speaking. There is no more emotional religion than the Catholics in South America. Oh, no. So many statues covered with blood, weeping, special medals. Oh, yeah, they love all that. Yeah. Yeah, my family love all that. But it's that prosperity gospel that's getting underway there that spooks me. All right, England will be Catholic. Thank you, James. Not by any choice of the government. It just seems to be happening. You killed so many people to get rid of the Catholics and they're back and you're not even angry about it? You do pick the strangest subjects to get angry about. I think that's a big one. I'm also thrilled about it, but I think you guys should be esteemed. It's been great being on the pod. We love freedom. Do you? Yeah. Do you? Hmm. with that head over to triggerpod.co.uk where james is going to answer your questions in exactly the same way he's answered ours did the podcast political comedian kill the stand-up comedian what do you think of joe rogan and dave smith Thank you.