We don't have job security anymore. We don't have safety anymore. Believe it or not, in the last one year, when I asked around 200 clients, how long were you able to keep that last job? It's two to three years. I'm not kidding. You wake up Sunday night with a familiar weight on your chest, dreading Monday morning. You got the job that looks perfect on paper, a good salary, a solid title, impressive company name when you're LinkedIn and something feels hollow. You're not broken. You're not ungrateful. You're just tired of trading your life for a paycheck. That was the intro to my next guest's new book, You're More Than a Paycheck, which speaks to anyone caught between financial necessity and soul-crushing work. Brooke, welcome to Expert Intelligence. Yes, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here, Paul. I talked to a lot of authors, but there was something about that intro or your book that caught me because for a long period of time, well, I would express that I was looking for purpose. I was literally trading my life for a paycheck and funny, I was with a friend last night who's at his final stages of big tech life and he expressed the same sort of feeling of looking back at his career. So I wanted to talk to you and learn more about your book and about the work that you do. I want to start off, how did you get here? Tell me about your book. That is a long story, but I think we have similar stories, Paul. So because I did have that wonderful name on my resume, like I had followed the formula that many of us are given, right? Get good grades, go to good schools and graduate from college and get to a good job. And that's the definition of success that most of us are given. So I felt successful, but like you said, hello inside too, okay? I have everything that looks great on paper. What is wrong with me that I don't feel as great and fulfilled inside of me? And that question never left me, I think. And I went into this journey to figure out what would make me happier because it didn't make any sense that I would feel horrible every Monday. I feel like, oh, I had decades of work in front of me and I'm not willing to spend it like this and chasing the weekends or a retirement. So that brought me to being a career coach, a consultant because that's what I care about the most now. We have to change something about work. I agree. There's a blog article wrote, the nine to five was an experiment and this is a return. And it helped me get a perspective when I go and I look back, it's like, hey, it was always this way. Now I'm a consultant and a freelancer. Tell me a little bit about that article and what inspired you to write it. Yes, thank you. That's a great question. Thanks for finding that blog because I have a lot, but that is important. And I used to hate it when I was young, people would say, oh, unless you understand history, you wouldn't understand today. I said, what? That doesn't make any sense. And it makes so much sense now that I'm getting older and I can look at the history of work because some of my wonderful pioneers of this work really helped me to understand that. So before industrial age or factory age, what were we doing? All of us were trying to figure out what our talents are. Okay, should I be a farmer or should I be a trade person? Should I be cutting people's hairs or something to that effect? So we were always, almost all of us were solopreneurs or entrepreneurs and think about that too. We didn't have this nine to five concept. So it was in the flow, in a natural flow, we did what was required to make money, to do barter or whatever. And then we hit the industrial age where we started this transaction. It is a real transaction. Okay, I'm gonna give you my time and my effort and you give me the money. But it helped us in some ways because our brains, I'm sure you're interested in the brain and psychology as well as I am. And then when you study that, your brain wants security, certainty, right? So it gave us that security. Oh, I can get a paycheck every two weeks, every month. How wonderful. And at the end, there is this new concept that they came up with is called retirement because there was no retirement beforehand. Oh, and at the end, I'm gonna have a time of my life if I can get there, right? So that's why I feel like if you look at the history of humankind, it is a real concept and it's not working. And we also found out how it did not work doing COVID because people started to work in their rhythms at home, taking care of children, taking care of other stuff and do it at their own timing, not basically nine to five. So now we know it's not as productive as we think so that I feel like, okay, should we really go backwards and think about those times? So that really brought that block article out just to question it with everybody else too. I live in here in Seattle and there's a ton of tech companies, right? We have Amazon, we have pretty much most, outside of Silicon Valley, we have most of the tech companies here. One of the themes that I'm hearing daily is very successful, very intelligent technologists looking at the environment, AI, just the business environment overall. And every day wondering and saying, I'm not safe. You were saying, our brains want some sort of comfort, we want some sort of safety and it doesn't exist anymore. Exactly. What are you hearing from people in your coaching practice? The same exact thing, right? Even if they don't articulate it the same way, everybody feels like we don't have job security anymore, we don't have safety anymore. And believe it or not, in the last one year, when I asked around 200 clients, when I asked them how long were you able to keep that last job because they got laid off and that's usually when they find me, it's two to three years. I'm not kidding, two to three years. So they're in it under their quest to find a job and that's what we have in our conversations. This new job would be also maybe one year, you can maybe hold on to it for a year or a couple of years. There is nothing like when I started working, people were getting into a company and some of them, my friends included, retired from the same company. That doesn't exist anymore, even if you wanted to. And some people don't want it for the right reasons, but that's why I'm saying in that transaction we made years ago, we at least had that job security that safety feeling, which is no longer there. So now we have to rethink work and why we're looking for jobs or what we need in jobs again and again, because we lost that. Before we get into your book and some of the frameworks that you have would really help people think through where we are today and how to chart a path that sort of makes sense. In your own journey, you actually reached out to a coach. And so I have in my career many times, and this is one of the things that I try to advocate for. It's kind of crazy if I don't feel physically well, like my stomach hurts or I've got a headache. I run to a doctor or if I, you know, my shoulder kind of hurts, I run to a PT, but we spend most of our time at work and many people don't default to, hey, there's help out there that can help me think through this, that can help get me out of my own head and navigate this. Take me to that time where you were like, hey, I'm gonna call a coach. I'm gonna call somebody who can give me some outside perspective that's not my boss managing my air quotes career. Tell me about that moment. It ended up being part of your now career journey. Exactly. I think I spent so much time before I even quit my job at IBM to figure this on my own. Because I think most of my clients do the same thing. Everybody wants to do DIY. That's why I think my book is kind of that too. If you don't want to get a career coach, at least read the book, please, because it has all the important questions in it. But we all want to do it ourselves because we don't feel like we need help. First of all, career coaching is still kind of new, especially at the time that I reached out to a coach, it was brand, brand new. Nobody even wanted to even tell each other that they have a coach. I mean, especially the executives, right? Now all of them say it, but it was a very brand new profession. And we didn't know that they even exist. And even if it does, like we feel like, why should I pay money for this? I can do this on my own. But one thing that I think we cannot do, which is I think the most important chapter in my book, which is the most time that I spend with my clients, is what you just said. It's we are in our minds and we cannot tell the limiting beliefs that we inherited. We just cannot. It's so hard to do it on your own. But if somebody is trained to see it or hear it in your voice, in your body language, in how you speak, then they can stop you there and say, let's go deeper into this. Is that real that you cannot find a new career at this age? Is that really true that you cannot change careers or find something you love? Because there is so much limiting beliefs that we learned along the way that we need to overcome. And that's the part that I loved that my coach did for me. And I said, oh my God, I got so much energy out of that and finding clarity that I said, okay, this is what I want to do for others too, because it changes your life for better. I really believe that. There's something about today's workplace and the dopamine factory and the captive nature of it. The company saying, well, hey, look, I know it's hard to find a job out there. So stay here until they're kind of done with you. In your book, you did a really good job of creating sort of four paths. And when you say finding purpose, I get it. It almost feels sometimes too cliche when you say define purpose. But the way that you frame it and the advice that you provide, I think, is really helpful. Can you just take me through sort of those four paths? Sure. So there's a lot of things that you said that I would love to speak about, but just briefly. First of all, when I first started thinking about, what's my purpose of working at IBM? I was early in my 20s, right? So since then, purpose did become a conversation, but we dilute it in such a bad way. We just made it a trendy buzzword, which took away all the power of it. So I totally agree with you. It became such a bad cliche, but we didn't understand the depths of it, especially in the organizational environment. We just made it a checkbox and we did a purpose statement done. Nothing works that way, right? So there's so much depth into it. But I think also when I work with my individual clients, they make it so big in their heads, like it has to be making the headlines or their mother Teresa, they are gonna change the world. It doesn't need to be big like that. It's just like, I don't know if you read that part if the book or you heard it somewhere else, but those three masons, like when you ask three people who are doing exactly the same thing, one says, I am putting bricks together. One says, I am building a wall. And the one who gets most motivated says, I am building a cathedral. So that is the difference about finding meaning in what you do. One is looking at it as a mundane task. One is looking at from the big picture. Who am I contributing at the end? What is happening with everything I do, right? And I think that's what people hear as soon as you say more than a paycheck, love your work. They feel like, oh, let me leave my job tomorrow and go after what my heart says. Never, I never say that. You have to start and with my clients, I always start with where they are right now because with some of them, we can even find meaning and purpose in what they do now. Because they can tie what they do on a daily basis to the bigger picture. And some of the best of the best leaders of our times can do it for their employees so that they see that, right? An example helps it so much easier to ground it like, if you're an employee at Patagonia, for example, one of the best, most integrity-based company, but if you're a accountant there and punching in numbers, you're not only punching in numbers. What you do every day helps the sustainability in the environment. If you can tie that, it makes a huge difference of how you go to work every day. And those are the four paths, like looking into meaning and what you already do, your life right now, even if you're laid off, or changing careers, or starting something on the side, your own business, or even volunteer work, unpaid work. There's so many different paths you can take if you're intentional about it and it's possible for everyone. There's nothing special about me to find what I do or what I love to do. Everybody's capable if they're intentional about that. You're hitting on something that I think we don't do enough of. Over the past six months, I've gotten off of all of social media outside of LinkedIn to be transparent. Yeah, because that's where I find sort of opportunity and it's my professional space. But you've written about reflection as a real discipline. The idea that we take a moment, we put down the phone, we stop comparing ourselves to whoever's on Instagram or whatever, talk to me about the importance of reflection, especially now. It's so important and it's so crazy that we never learn about it or we never do it and nobody teaches us that it can be the best inner journey to take because it is to my astonishment when I work with clients, very, very few of them know who they are, what they want, what fulfills them, what makes them happy. Most of them know what makes them unhappy, but we never take the time. And I think this is a cliche too, but we spend more time really planning for vacation, which I really care about too, but we never like do anything to figure out who we really are. And then because our brains are so programmed to get approval, to impress people, it's all about the societal expectations and pressures that we hold on to, but not what we really believe we should be doing. It's almost like, I wrote this book, almost like a permission. You have a permission to think about these things, but to do that and to have clarity, which is the first step, you have to figure out who you are and that can only start with reflection questions. And that's why I included that as a workbook at the end and also have exercises as I go through the book steps because you have to ask those questions. And again, to my astonishment, most people don't want to do that. And when I asked my closest friends why they don't want to do it, one of them said that, which stayed with me, says, what if I spend my first 30 years doing something that is really not relevant to who I am? Then it will be so disappointing. And I asked them then, what about spending the next 25 more years doing something that you don't like or hate or not alignment with you? Wouldn't that even bother you even more 20 years later? I mean, that's why I feel like at least once a year, and I do that every December, it just grounds you. It just makes you feel so good to do those exercises and ask those questions, but it just is uncomfortable for so many. And it's a big $1 million question to crack that down. And I think it has to do with our brains and our comfort zones and neuroscience. And there's so many variables in there. It's almost like in today's world, discomfort is considered something bad. I have two daughters. I talk about it here often in the work that I do. And there was a conversation my wife and I were having around, well, that made her uncomfortable. I'm like, yeah, yeah, that conversation was uncomfortable. Whatever the topic was, was a hard one and she's learning and stuff. But my job isn't to protect her from everything that makes her uncomfortable or challenged or every risk in the world, because that's just not how the world operates. Very true, very true. And I'm so interested in human psychology because it's part of what I do too. But that's the best thing a parent can do from a very early age. If we can't stay in their uncomfortable state with them, normalizing that we can feel frustrated, discomfort, anger, frustration, upset, everything, it normalizes all our feelings because otherwise we chase life that is not including any of those feelings, which we all have and we want to hide them, but it doesn't serve us at all. And this process that I go with my clients, it is uncomfortable at some points. That's why I feel like I need to even champion them. I say, you are so brave to go through this with me, but at the end of the tunnel, there is so much more comfort and joy and happiness and fulfillment that comes with knowing who you are that it is so worth it. Yeah, there's a skill that we're losing quickly of being able to sit with discomfort. And quickly, that's one of the things I learned when I over the past six months, at least resetting my relationship with my phone and social media, I drastically reduced them. And during that journey, you sit with discomfort more because you lose this little device that is designed to give you that dopamine back. And if, oh, I feel discomfort, I pick up this phone and it's got like all of these things that distract me from anything that might be uncomfortable or stop me from reflecting. I've got a whole set of work I'm doing around distraction and education and just what technology doing to all of us. For someone listening right now who's going through a journey like I went through that you've gone through many others where they're stuck in a job, they either haven't found their purpose in the job that they're doing, they're having trouble finding meaning and showing up. They may be in a very toxic area, you may have a bad boss, you may be working at a company where you don't agree with some of the moral things they're doing and that's happening more and more and more. What can I do today in this moment? Let's say somebody's listening to this now and they're like, I hear you, I'm there too and I wanna change something. What is something that they could do today before they get laid off, before they're under stress, before they're figuring out like, how am I gonna pay my bills and all of that stuff? I know I wanna change, I know to your point, I want tomorrow to look very different than the past 10 years. What would you advise? I think first of all, accept that that is there for you and it's good to be listening to that voice that pulls you forward. So it's good that you are self-aware enough to hear that voice that this is not working for you. You're not on autopilot anymore. So that's the biggest step to be self-aware and that you are not failing. The systems that we created are failing you. It's really that, it's not about you because this many people cannot be this frustrated, this burned out, this much stressed out because of something they did. The formula given is not working so. Make sure that you're, no, you're not failing. So don't feel embarrassed or feel guilty to ask for more. This is the permission that I am giving to you because this system is not working for millions and millions of people and you have done everything right. So what I also want you to do as the first step after this self-awareness and hearing your voice is that you get to a mindset where it's not either or you get to an end mindset, right? That's very important. You can do what pays the bills because I don't ever had the extra money or this amount of money to go and do whatever I like. I will not one of those lucky ones with so much money set aside and people assume I did and I did not. So either or mentality is keeping us stuck. So keep the end mentality which means you do the job that pays the bills for now and find time in your calendar during the weekends, at night or whenever you can, even if it's seven hours of time to do reflections and figure out what you want to do next. What is the thing that you want to do? What is something that gives you energy? What keeps you in the flow? Even if you're still in social media, when you scroll down that page, what are the places that makes you stop and be curious? Is it about health? Is it women? Is it children? Is it a cause? Is it engineering? Is it AI? Whatever that is, if that makes you stop, go and be more curious about that. Do something about it. Learn more about it and see if there's something you can do as even a side gig, write a digital product that you can sell for five bucks or whatever. And in my book, I added that this new chapter in 2025 because I never used to tell people, think about the side gig or business because I know how hard it is to start your own business. But now it is as hard to find a good job. So we're there now. So go and do something on your own if possible. And mindset, not either or, because we have to pay the bills and I tell the new graduates, you cannot find a job. Go and get a job. It's a barista job. It's a blue color job. There's no job beneath you. Do something because staying at home and finding the ideal job makes so many of them depressed. So do something that pays the bills but also never, never give up on finding what gives you joy and freedom and love and fulfillment. So it's an either or those are the first steps because they already have the first step by self-awareness and do not push that voice aside. That voice in you is saying something for your own good. Do not ignore that and do not deny that. So those are the first steps. When you talk about reflection, one of the things that I ran into when I realized that I wanted tomorrow to be different than yesterday. I started walking. When I walk, I have a big golden retriever I run around with. It was my best friend because we sit around and walk in silence. But it was one of those things where I put technology down and I would just get out. And there was something freeing about it because it forced you to put down all of the technology and the pinging from Slack and the emails and it doesn't cost anything. I just wanted to build on your advice about reflection and putting yourself in a place where you have the permission to do it. I advocate for it's not gonna be done sitting at your desk. It's not gonna be done staring at a TV and it's not gonna be done staring at a phone. Very, very true. And for me and a lot of people that I talk to, it's the same. So thanks for giving that example of walking. It's mostly always in nature that we find ourselves. And that always makes me go back to the past thousands of years ago to think about it. We built these big buildings. We put ourselves into it and we prisoned ourselves. And now we need nature so much more because we're not in nature. But whenever you go out there with your dog or by yourself, something else happens in our bodies that we need desperately. And that's part of being with yourself. And that's when you find all the thoughts about yourself, connect with you, you are very right. And for me, and it doesn't have to be the same. I love writing it down, but it's not even in my office at home either. I love coffee shops because it gives me a different vibe or the library or the bookstore. That's when most of my thoughts come in either nature or there. So it's different for all of us, but nature is one of the most common denominators for sure. It goes back to your point about changing perspective. Well, Brooke, thank you for your time. I want to ask you one more question. Sure. I want you to think back. Brooke today, we just got finished writing a book and the thing I admire about having written a book, the effort that goes into saying, I have an idea. I think it's an important idea and I'd like to share it. I have deep respect and gratitude for anyone who takes that time and produces that because I know the amount of work and the amount of effort that goes into waking up every day and believing in something and overcoming self-doubt and those things in that process. Today's Brooke talks to 25-year-old Brooke. What piece of advice does she give her? Definitely forget about self-doubt altogether. Leave it somewhere else as soon as possible, whatever you believe in, you go for it and definitely do not second guess yourself or what you think, what you want to do and take steps even faster than I did because I always did what my intuition and my inner voice said, I think, since I was very, very young, but at times I would always stop and wonder, is this the right path? I'm so weird, especially at the time that I left IBM in 1990 and oh my God, nobody was leaving their corporate jobs, almost nobody, I should say. So everybody looked at me like I'm the craziest thing on earth. I still did what I wanted, but at some point it also made me feel like, what's wrong with me or self-doubt, really, it's just self-doubt. I would tell her that there is no amount of self-doubt that should keep you on your path, just do whatever you feel is right and go for it girl, don't spend even a second about that, I think. That's what I would say. That's great advice. I wanna encourage everyone out there to go pick up more than a paycheck and all of the links to get in touch with Brooke and her work will be in the show notes. If this conversation stirred something in you, it's not restlessness, that's called information. It's okay to be uncomfortable, but take time to reflect. Maybe after this go for a walk, the work you've been putting in starts now. Stay curious, till next time.
