ROLLUP: War Returns, Markets Shrug | Saylor Sells | Robinhood Memecoins | Ethereum 3.0?

bankless nation another friday another week it's time for the bankless weekly roll up ryan how you doing i'm great david i was really excited to celebrate the 4th of july you know the uh 250 anniversary it is actually july this is the i think is this the 10th this is the 11th year of existence for ethereum is that right july yes correct no is it 11th yeah the ethereum blockchain started sometime in July in 2015. So this makes it Ethereum 11 years old. So where do you think Ethereum will be? Forget America's birthday. Happy birthday, Ethereum. 250 years from now, where do you think Ethereum will be? Still producing blocks. Give me an ETH price prediction. I don't know if the dollar is the correct denominator at that point in 250 years. I mean, the dollar's got Lindy, but I don't know if it's got 250 more years of Lindy. Not to say anything about Ethereum's 11 years of Lindy. well, we are not going to be around, so it's not going to be our problem, unless you do the Brian Johnson thing. I think there's a very solid chance that at least I will be around because I'm at least trying half-heartedly to do that. Well, you might need a new roll-up co-host then because I'm not sure about myself, David. You're not going to do it. What do we got this week? This week, the ceasefire with Iran is over. The United States struck 80 targets over two days across Iran. Iran hit back with U.S. bases in Bahrain and Kuwait, and oil sanctions on Iran are back on. So how are the markets responding to all of this? We did it during market hours this week. Usually Trump waits for, you know, Friday at 4 p.m. after the market closes. Does he really? Yeah. I guess he does. He did that like four times. It's Friday at 4 p.m. It's time to bomb Iran. But there's a ceasefire and then now it's seemingly over. Trump's got some words to say. There's also Michael Saylor. Once upon a time, you know, in distant memory, he sold 32 Bitcoin and Bitcoin dropped like 20%. This week, Saylor sold 3,588 Bitcoin and Bitcoin went up 3%. Huh. You told me you think that marks the bottom. We got to dive into what your thoughts are on that. Also, the Robinhood chain finished its first full week in production with a killer use case that's emerging. We'll talk about what that is. You've never seen this use case before. Brand new meta in crypto. We've never seen it. Speaking of brand new, There's a new Ethereum roadmap brought to you by Vitalik. At least he published it. He pushed it out. It's called the Straw Man. I really get the feeling. Oh, Straw Map. Oops, not Straw Man. I really get the feeling they wanted to call this Ethereum 3.0, but like just didn't because of reasons. He did say the third phase. I know. He did say that. Just say it. This is Ethereum 3.0, folks. We're on Ethereum 3.0. We'll weigh in on that. Okay. We never really knew when 1.0 ended and 2.0 started and it's going to be the same thing now. 2.0 started with the merge. 1.0 was when the whole thing kicked off 11 years ago uh 10 years ago excuse me that's fair okay uh the merge was two um i guess we've been into for a while i did yeah it's a little bit like dc's ship though because the merge we we ejected the consensus layer and added a new one but the execution layer stayed the same we'll get into it i think it's a theorem 3.0 at least um but let's start with Iran, the big news around the world. What happened with Iran? So two major waves of airstrikes on July 8th and 9th across Iran targeting 170 military sites in total. So I would imagine this was a pretty big in terms of strikes, which was a pretty big one. This was in direct retaliation for Iran attacking three commercial vessels in the Strait of Hormuz earlier this week, which the United States characterized as a clear violation of the existing truce. I'm guessing what happened here is like, we decided to like, see what we can do with pushing boats through the Strait of Hormuz and seeing what Iran would allow. And Iran was like, well, we're going to strike those ships. And they struck those three ships. And then, you know, the United States just escalated. And so here we are. So I think the big question is, is the ceasefire over? Like, are we just back to war with Iran? Let's go ask the Donald himself. Let's see what he said. negotiators they want to negotiate they're good people steve whitcoff jared kushner but they have to come back to me as far as i'm concerned it's just a waste of time dealing with them they're liars we make a deal and they if i make a deal with him we have a deal and he goes out he talks we make a deal everyone's agreed no nuclear weapon we make a deal they go outside talk to the press they say we never even talked about it there's something wrong with them they're cuckoo as far as i'm concerned it's over as far as i'm concerned it's over is what he says now uh ryan you would expect markets to just be in turmoil okay i just feel like yeah that sounds pretty over but it's also it's donald trump okay that's donald trump so i feel like he said those words previously what did he talk about ending the you know iranian civilization all sorts of things and then was back like oh these guys are great let's make a deal we got a great deal these are beautiful people respect and now he's back to what he was before so i don't know from anyone else i'd be like that's this is so over but from trump it's like okay right and i think the markets are saying exactly what you're saying so looking at the oil prices as like the indice of how over is this it's not that over uh or actually it's somewhere in the middle so like oil prices jumped from 68 for wti up to 71 that's up five percent which is in the grand scheme of the war that's like nothing yeah zoom out a little bit on this chart oh this is this is the entire war this is the entire way this is the entire wait entire war yeah so these are weekly candles 200 week i see you're doing this is this is the weekly candles so here i'll go to daily candles yeah i get it um and so yeah like i mean we're doing fine yeah because we were above 100 at various points in the war, right? Like as high as 112? Is that what this is? Yeah, as high as 112. And then it was ranging between 85 and 112. And then the lows, which we were at three days ago, was $67 and we were at below $72. So the market kind of thinks this is over, right? The market thinks it's over. I mean, sorry, not over. It's just like not a big deal. It's not a big deal. Okay. Yeah. And I think like the Trump administration did a phenomenal job, in my opinion, doing expectation management with the markets as it was to the war when the war was actually in its height. They really just like, they only struck on the weekends. Then it was like peacetime between Monday through Friday during market hours. But then once the weekend hit, it was wartime. That's insane. They did that so long. That's insane. Now that we're striking Iran again, the market's like, whatever. We'll add 3% to the oil prices, but we're moving on. It showed up a little bit in the indices, But really, like the Nasdaq and the SPY are fantastically green today. So there was like a red bloodbath on like Tuesday, but it was one day. It kind of implies that the market is calling the shots on this war, which is sort of bizarre, but maybe that's what's going on. But it also implies that Trump has a really real weakness around this. If Iran knows what's happening, they could do the same analysis you just did and just be like, Trump is not going to do anything if the markets go down. And so they can exploit that. They have all sorts of ways to exploit that, I guess. That's not my interpretation. My interpretation is that the market doesn't care. Donald Trump gets to do whatever he wants because the market is what will push Donald into a corner, not Iran. And so like Donald just got away with two days of strikes across Iran and the market was like, whatever, we're just going to cough a little bit. I'm choosing to just like not let it affect my. I think you're allowed to not think about it. That's what the market's saying. That's what I've been doing. That's what the market agrees with me on that. Let's look at the crypto prices. So Bitcoin up 2% this week. We're at $63,000. ETH up 2% this week at $17.50. And then stretch, I think, is the most interesting thing. Trading at $86. Stretch from strategy, it's trading 14% off. I think this is kind of starting to find some sort of equilibrium about how comfortable people are holding stretch and the yield at $86. $100 is too high, but $70 is too low. And the other indicator of like health of this bull market, Ryan, that's the stretch and master microstrategy is like the crypto health side of things. DRAM is like the momentum of the AI stocks. It's kind of come off of its highs from $80 down to $60 and up to $65. And so I kind of think the memory stocks, the AI trade is kind of consolidating right now. It's not going too high, not going too low. It's a little bit of a pause. But as far as I'm concerned, like the market, the trend is still in the market's favor. These are all my takes. What about this? What about this big Michael Saylor sale then? I mean, the market seemed to absorb that, which was somewhat unexpected, I suppose, because this is a $200 million sale here. I mean, that's not it's it's less than it's about half a percent of all micro strategy holdings. But that's the first time that strategy has sold in size. it's a big amount uh it indicates more to come or more could come from somebody previously in previous regimes thought of as just an accumulator you know strategy sailor does not sell it only buys and outsold and the market shrugged that off so what what happened here and what do you think this means the biggest piece of information for me on this is sailor sold a lot in comparison to what he sold last time. So 32 ETH, or 32 Bitcoin is what he sold last time. He sold 3,588, so way more. He raised $216 million, which is like one and a half months of dividend coverage. So in terms of like buying time, he didn't buy himself that much time. So we're going from like micro sales to small sales of Bitcoin. But it's still, to your point, it's only 45 days he bought. Yeah. You're right. It's still very small. And so, I do think it's bullish that Michael Saylor is selling because he needs to become, in my opinion, irrelevant to the market. And when there is such a large overhang from Saylor and he has such a large obligation for dividends, that's just going to define the Bitcoin price because that's what the market is going to be looking at. And Saylor needs to, in my opinion, puke up some Bitcoin so he can absolve himself of some sins and like get 30 plus months of dividend coverage shored up. And so he's selling, but in my opinion, he's not selling enough. But it is notable that the Bitcoin price has gone up this week despite Saylor selling 3,588 Bitcoin. Do you think Bitcoin price in the market is just saying they're accepting the fact that he's going to puke up some Bitcoin? But so long as he pukes it up in an orderly fashion, the way everyone can kind of absorb, it's not unexpected. You know, markets hate uncertainty. This is sort of some certainty in the market that they can predict. Yeah, sure, he's going to puke up a little bit, but he's going to do it in an orderly fashion according to a plan. It's not going to be a graceless collapse or unwind. It's just going to be something that now happens. And I guess the market is bullish on that because they've removed some uncertainty. This is how strategy is going to solve its STRC preferred shares dilemma. Yeah, funding problem. Yeah. Yeah, when he sold his 32 Bitcoin and then Bitcoin dropped like 20% from like 70 down to like 58,000 or whatever, like I don't think it was the market responding to that 32 Bitcoin sale. It was the market anticipating much larger sales like this coming in the future. And perhaps this is the first of a handful of these, hopefully, in my opinion, the first of many, whereas Saylor actually does, again, puke up some Bitcoin to shore up his defenses so the market can kind of move on. And so the drop in Bitcoin price way back, way back a month and a half ago or whatever, was front running all of that future selling, this selling and all of that future selling, giving Saylor kind of terrible execution on the sale. Like he's buying the top and then selling the bottom. But nonetheless, like this is, I think, what it takes for us to kind of just clear this debt that we have. Well, let me ask you what you think this might imply. So do you think now that the market has and sailors seemingly resolved the problem here, right? We have a path towards resolution. You just keep doing this type of sale in an orderly way, however frequently you want to do it. It's not a problem right now. It's going to be very orderly. So that removes the sailor micro strategy blow up risk. I guess what I'm asking, your probability last time that we saw the bottom was what, like 50%? 40 to 50%, yeah. Yeah, has that gone up or down? Yeah, that's gone up. So because when we bottomed at like $57,000, Sailor was selling into that with this sale. And so to me, like, and so when I said it was 40 to 50% probability, I didn't know, no one knew that Sailor was selling at that time. Had I known that Sailor was actually selling into that, I'd be like, oh, He's the forced seller selling into the bottom. This is what a bottom looks like. So my probability is going up. So now you're waiting. You're waiting is basically that you're what? 60%? Something like this? 60% chance that that was the bottom. That 58K was the bottom. 57.5K, I think, was the pico bottom. What about you? Has that changed? My probability has not changed. I think I remain unaffected by the sailor thing, and I'm probably more influenced by Michael Nato and the work that he's doing. and his probability I haven't listened to you guys' episode yet this week what did you guys say this week? his probability that we've seen the bottom is 45% so his probability that we have not seen the bottom that we go to lower lows is 65% and he's like limit orders at 55k or so 55? what? we're like it's the same same that's the first limit set of limit orders then you've got 50k limit orders and then you can get into the 40s if things get really ugly and like 40 is kind of a 60, you know, 3, 64%, something like this drawdown from all-time highs, which should be commensurate with kind of the trend that we've seen. And his reasoning is kind of different. He's looking at, you know, the coin switching hands from different cohorts. And he's also looking at volume numbers. And he's like, we haven't seen the volume that we typically see in these kind of mark the bottom capitulation type events. He really wants to see some heavy volume on the buying and the selling before he gets the bottom. I agree with that, that this bottom was not a violent bottom, and all the other bottoms have been violent. That said, look, his portfolio is something like 70% in crypto now, 30% in cash, right? So he's still the weight on the bullish side of things. He's leaned exposure. Right before 10-10, he went to like 80% cash, right? Yeah, he did. So he's totally switched and bought in. And he just, he's pretty convicted. Doing it slower than I am. Yeah. A little slower to call, a little slower on the draw there. There's one more angle of the sailor thing that I want to talk to you about. Because I think it's kind of actually important. There was this, like, they released the, like, statement or whatever they're filing about the selling of their Bitcoin price. And there was, like, a bunch of words that has come with this. And so there are now, there are three buckets in their like digital framework, monetization framework shenanigans. Which is just how they're going to sell. That what this means How they going to sell And so there three different categories for how strategy sells Bitcoin There is the build the reserve category which they have that the authorization that they have authorized themselves to sell billion for the USD reserve That's one type of authorized sale of Bitcoin. So that's just like emergency fund, cash padding, that kind of thing. That's what the reserve is? I don't know if it's emergency fund. It's just cash. Rainy day. Rainy day fund. Yeah. Then there's cover the preferreds, which is you sell Bitcoin to pay the fixed dividends and interest strategy owes on its preferred shares and debt or to replenish the reserves after they pay them when management decides to sell Bitcoin beats issuing common stock. So after they pay out like their monthly dividend or biweekly or however long they're doing it, they're allowed to sell Bitcoin to immediately replenish those dividends. And then there is a third bucket, which is just a fund buybacks, which they are allowed to sell Bitcoin to repurchase its preferred shares, MSTR stock, up to $1 billion of each with Bitcoin sales potentially covering related taxes, fees and expenses. So there's three different buckets for how they sell Bitcoin. That $1.25 billion authorization that they authorized themselves to, which they don't need to do, but they did, is untouched by this sale of $216 million of Bitcoin. That is the cover the preferreds category, not the build the reserves category. The build the reserves category, they have still authorized themselves $1.25 billion of permission to sell Bitcoin. And the sale from this week is not in that bucket. It's in the cover the preferreds bucket, which is a limitless bucket. They can sell as much Bitcoin as they need to cover the preferreds. Okay, so they're just saying all of the sales we made this week didn't count towards the number we gave you. Last week. And also, we deem that. We authorized that to not count. Right. So, I don't know what I get from that other than the selling could continue. Yeah, they can do whatever they want. What are all these words for, dude? Well, I'm glad we talked about that and cleared all that up, dude. What do we have next? Okay, coming up next, we're going to talk about the brand new innovative use case on Robinhood chain that has been recently discovered this week. No one saw it coming. and then also Ryan's going to talk to us about Ethereum 3.0 we got a new straw map to talk about it's my turn okay not Metallic's turn it's all of that and more but first we're going to talk to some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible trading is changing not gradually right now OKX just launched Trading Boss directly inside the OKX app grid trading DCA arbitrage you set your strategy once and it executes around the clock no staring at charts all day no manual entries no missing moves while you're asleep and for the first time automated trading actually feels simple, but OKEx is thinking bigger than just trading. They also launched the Agent Payments Protocol, an open standard that lets AI agents execute full commercial transactions on-chain. The Ethereum Foundation, Uniswap, and AWS are already building on it, and now it's live inside the United States. 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One platform, one account, multiple markets, crypto equities, commodities, and more, all accessible with USDT. BitGet. Trade smarter. Start trading today through the link in the show notes. This is not investment advice. Last week, we had the rise of Robinhood chain. This week, it opened for business. The Bridges opened up and you're able to go and buy tokenized stocks and put money into Morpho and trade on Uniswap and get 7% yield. You know what happened, Ryan? Yeah. People did all of those things that you said? I mean, sure. Some people did. But what is actually everyone's excited about? What's that? Meme coins. Meme coins. Can I tell you about the meme coin that's on Robinhood chain that people are excited about? What's it called? What's the meme coin of the week? It's called Cash Cat. And the lore is that this is what Robinhood was called before it was called Robinhood. And there's a tweet from Vlad from 2021 about this. And people immediately found that meme and it jumped up to $180 million in market cap or something. And then because of the flurry of activity of meme coins on Robinhood chain, so many people wanted to bridge to Robinhood chain that all the bridges ran out of ETH, ran out of liquidity on the Robinhood chain just like everyone bridged over like oh we don't have any ETH for you you have to go to the canonical bridge if you want to go on and so like people just rushed in to buy meme coins on Robinhood chain I forgot that like when a chain launches the first thing that happens there is just people just buy the native meme coins of the chain but that's what happened it doesn't always happen though I mean didn't happen for Kraken's Inc like it just depends it doesn't happen for lots of chains but you would want it to you would want it to everyone would want it to maybe we'll talk about why, but this seems like an endorsement almost from Vlad Tenev, the founder of Robinhood. He tweeted this, while we're building Robinhood chain to be the best chain for real world assets, it works great for memes too. There you go. It does work great for memes. Blockchains do work great for memes. That is something that we've actually known for quite a long time. So now all the meme coin traders are looking at Robinhood and Vlad being like, are you guys going to list the memes? But you have to support the meme economy. You need to list cash cat on the main Robinhood app because we need you guys to support the memes. And I think people are just have way too much hope for that. I don't think that's happening at all. I guess the theory of why a meme coin would explode on Robinhood is distribution. You've got, you know, 25 million trading degens. Same thing with base and meme coins on base. It's like you pump the meme coins on base and then Coinbase will list it. Yeah, but with Robinhood, it's untouched people too, right? It's like the same They haven't been burned by meme coins before. We could burn them. We could be the guys that burn them. This is a whole new audience we could burn. This is a whole new audience that could tap into the potential. I think that is probably some of the theory. It's Robinhood distribution. I mean, you correct me. I'm not a meme coin trader. What do I know about this? That's right. That sounds right. And I think people are getting, even if Robinhood does do that, which I don't think they will, and I don't think that they ought to, because you shouldn't be, in my opinion, distributing meme coins to your retail buying, like, just because you want to support the meme coin economy. Why gatekeep, David? Why gatekeep? You're such a gatekeeper. I'm sorry. I'm listening to all the people who own Cash Cat on Twitter and being like, Vlad, list Cash Cat. Vlad, list Cash Cat. And all I'm hearing is, Vlad, let me dump on your customers. That's always the case. This is always the case. Like, there's no way. There's no way. And, like, Robinhood moves slowly. And, you know, to some degree, that's actually benefited them because they've been able to be like 17th mover advantage on Ethereum layer twos. Yeah. And they just get to bring all their distribution. And like going fast, they would have been in the experiment like Wild West phase and like that's not their deal. And so I don't like, I'm not holding my breath for Robinhood to list Cash Cat on their retail app. Nor do you think they should, you're saying. You think they should just keep that segmented sandbox. You want meme coins to go on Robinhood chain. If you want to buy memes, download Robinhood wallet, not Robinhood app. Yeah, at least there's a step there and a hoop someone has to go through. And so they're not enticed by this. But this has been pretty good for some of the native DeFi protocols for wallets. I saw 140,000 wallets have been opened on Robinhood chain. This is Hayden Adams. On one day, that was just one day. I think we're accumulative wallets on Robinhood chain is over 200,000. On July 8th, there was 141 new active wallets on Robinhood chain. $500 million of trading volume in Uniswap in 24 hours, which is roughly a third of Solana's DEX spot volume just on the Uniswap version of Robinhood chain. Pretty crazy. I mean, could you make the argument that, hey, memes are a great way to bootstrap an ecosystem. You get users, you get people on the wallet doing things, activity, and then once they come, they'll stay. I've heard this story before. I feel like we've said this before. I've heard that before. More crypto wallets in more hands is net good. I think memes just are always kind of just like, it's the spark. Whether or not it lights anything is completely unbounded. Well, there were some DeFi protocols that are winners here. You mentioned Uniswap. There's also Athena and Morpho, which received some total value here. So they benefit from Robinhood chain doing well. Some of these Robinhood tokens were on PumpFun, which is a massive... Yeah, so like Pump wants to give their users in on the action. And so you can buy Robinhood meme coins on PumpFun now, which also now includes Robinhood stocks. So you can now buy Robinhood stock tokens on PumpFun, which is interesting. It's a great way to cycle your meme coin winnings into something that's a bit more sustainable. I hope that's what they're doing, David. Yeah. But how about the real world asset part of things? How about the tokenized stocks? Are those flying off the shelves? Are we selling some tokenized stocks on Robinhood chain? Sure. Sure. There's $366 million of assets on Robinhood chain. 266 of that is stablecoins, granted. And a decent chunk of that is, as you said, in Morpho, getting that 7% boosted yield from the Robinhood stablecoin, the USDG. That's Paxos. So $90 million of that is in Athena getting yield. $86 million of that is in Morpho getting yield. And then there is a whopping $13 million of tokenized stocks. Robinhood tokenized stocks, $13 million, which it's day three, you know? It's day three. Well, I'm sure that number will go up when they open it up at least to the U.S. It's just Europe only. Yeah, right. It's not available in the U.S., which sucks. I'm sure there's a lot of gates that I haven't tried to purchase tokenized stocks. I actually haven't actually tried it out directly yet because Robinhood stocks are permissionless, actually. Yeah, it's a to-do for next time. David's going to go try this. Yeah. Yeah. Let's look at the data availability purchase from Ethereum. Some interesting stats. So this is L2B. Now Robinhood Chain is on L2B. And because Robinhood Chain is a layer two and probably the most successful layer two that's come out in the past like 12 months or so, right? As far as off the bat success, it's kind of like people are looking for some validation of the Ethereum L2 roadmap, which has not been going well lately. So Robinhood Chain purchases its data availability from Ethereum, the layer one, and they have so far spent about $600 purchasing that data availability. That's $600 of ETH. It's just gone forever. $600 of blob space so far. And that's just the start. Of course, it only spikes up when there's contention. So because there's much more supply than demand, the fees are low. Yes, you know the draw. Should we talk more about Ethereum? You want to talk about the straw map? Yes. You do have to give a shout out to Arbitrum, which is going to be our token mover of the week, which is up 13% this week. Oh, they are up because they were only up like 3% last week when we talked about this. So they got a boost. They got a boost because they get 10% of all of the execution fees of Robinhood chain goes into the Arbitrum DAO. So Arbitrum token mover of the week. Congrats, Arbitrum. Yeah. Okay. Now talk to me about the straw map. Well, I don't know. Did you see it? So this is Vitalik posting the straw map. So we already had a version of the straw map, which is basically Ethereum's roadmap for the next, call it three to five years, maybe 10 years plus. Why do we call it that? Like straw man, you know, I said, I think it's like an idea of a roadmap. It's yeah, it's just like a draft of a roadmap, right? This could change. Like, don't take it too seriously. It's just a straw. I never did. Well, you might have reason to take it a bit more seriously this time around, because this is a new version of the straw map. And this one has something I didn't see in previous versions, which is some columns for dates. For dates. Oh, that's new. That is new. Can you imagine? Dates. How specific? It's just a straw map, so don't get too excited, okay? These are straw map dates. I got excited. But we do have these dates and we have them tied roughly to future hard forks. So we have lists of features tied to hard forks, which are shippable pieces of software on Ethereum, tied to like, I don't know, this looks like a six to nine month cadence. And it goes from 2026 and the two next hard forks all the way to 2029. And you also have this column called North Stars. And so these features are grouped. So you know the layers of the cake for Ethereum. How many times have we educated ourselves on this and the rest of the bankless nation on this? Consensus layer, data layer, execution layer. The three layers of the cake. And then you have these North Stars, which I appreciate. Why are we doing these things? The North Stars are Fast L1, so Fast Finality. Teragas L2, so lots of blobs for Robinhood chain and base. One gigabyte per second. and then gigagas L1, that's one gigagas per second, and then private L1. So those are the four North Stars for Ethereum at this point. And all of the features across all of these swimlines map to one of those four North Stars. Are you with me so far? Yep. So Vitalik calls this the biggest kind of thing, new era of Ethereum. He doesn't say Ethereum 3.0, but that's my interpretation. Now, unlike the merge, it's not like a one shot. Like we ship the whole thing. So this happens much more gradually, which is maybe some of the reason you don't want to call this whole thing Ethereum 3.0. It's because it's just not a moment in time. There's never a moment. No, we're shipping Ethereum 3.0, as I'm calling it, in these kind of hard fork phases towards these North Star definitions. Do you have any like, I don't know if you saw this compared to the previous version of the roadmap. But based on everything I've said, what are your impressions of the changes here, if any? Well, the old version was a straw map, which was subject to change and updating and all that kind of stuff. And I think really the first version, you know, the beta version of the straw map was Justin Drake's most hated slide ever. Yes, that's right. Out of DevCon in Bogota. Was that 2024? Bangkok, 2024. Yeah. Was that 2024? Yeah, it was 2024. Where he introduced Lean, Ethereum, that whole idea. Right. And it was like a five-year plan and everyone was grumbling about it. And, you know, well, we're two and a half years later. We're halfway through. But, like, it's a straw map. And so it has been updated. It was subject to change. We've changed it. It's now this. And what has changed in those two and a half years? AI. And also quantum. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. Those two things are, like, reshuffling priorities. And then you also have the unbundling of the EFs. Vitalik doesn't really care about block times. ETH Labs now cares about block times. And so because of the reshuffling of the actual organizations leading the straw map, you kind of see also some of the priorities. And so it's just updated for 2026. It's kind of like my summary of how things changed. I think it is updated for 2026 with some of those priorities. I want to get back to that in a second But also I point out it like so much more detailed so much less fog of war If you go back to do you remember Justin Drake slide from 2024 It was just very vague And it was like, there was a, we're going to pill everyone first, you know, like that's part of the reason he got some pushback, right? This is detailed. This has dates, this has columns, this has hard forks, this has specific features. Does it have like micro strategy authorization to sell Bitcoin dates or are they dates? I think that, well, I don't think you, the dates are a straw map, okay? But the level of detail is something that we haven't seen for this era of Ethereum. But let's talk about the prioritization that you noticed. Yeah, the advent of AI, formal verification seems to be getting kind of a big boost in this, or at least you can see the effects. In the same way that, you know, a secret unlock for Ethereum in the past has been Snarks. that's what's allowing this roadmap. And we've already kind of priced that in, let's say, incorporated that in previous versions of the straw map. This one seems most affected by formal verification because there seems to be this idea that we can move from a multi-client execution layer to a more consolidated single client pieces of the execution layer. So rather than have, in order to preserve security, redundancy through multiple clients, there's this idea, I think, interjected through this version of the roadmap that we can consolidate, have a single client, as long as it's formally verified, that gives us the security that we need. And because we can only have one client, that speeds a lot of things up. So in particular... That was a lot of development, just... Governance, blah, blah, blah. Like coordination and so many different layers. Yeah, it's so much faster. We can just focus on one client. Yeah. So what you see here is that the ZKEVM has been sped up. Okay. Now it's in K-Star, the K-Star fork, whereas previously it was like an L-Star or longer. So that has moved forward. L-Star. I can't even imagine L-Star. I'm going to be 40 years old in L-Star. No, you're not. K-Star is 2028. L-Star is 2029. Okay. Okay. You're going to be 40 in 2029. All the way. native roll-ups also make an appearance on this i don't know if i've seen that on previous versions native roll-ups with the date is new so anyway i think that's um that's cool another thing that i noticed was there seems to be more acceleration towards quantum so some of the quantum dates have moved up as well more from the 2029 and and 2030 to the 2028 uh time period for quantum acceleration Privacy, also more ambitious? I will say about quantum, it is nice Ethereum being the second market cap blockchain, because if you have a quantum computer, like, are you going to go for Bitcoin or are you going to go for Ethereum? And the answer is unequivocally, you're going to go for Bitcoin, because Ethereum is still going to be harder to break and more readily available. And so, like, Bitcoin will take the bullet for Ethereum. Yeah, I mean, that's right. And also, I think Ethereum is kind of leading the way for Bitcoin in terms of... You know, figuring out which cryptography works for blockchains. Privacy. Ethereum looks like it's going by the end of this, in the longer term, going full Zcash. So what we're looking at is, at least in the straw map, okay, is a privacy pool at the consensus layer. That's like basically Zcash functionality on the L1. That is a shielded pool in the layer one. That is Zcash. Something that Bitcoin is not doing, but it's basically saying, hey, privacy, we'll take that. that'll be a feature that we add onto our blockchain rather than launch an entirely new blockchain so those are the big things i noticed now there are some things that were deprioritized data availability blob features seem to be pushed back to a bit a bit more because like i guess we have enough and they're not like i mean it's not generating a lot just charge robin hood more money that's fine it was an okay product it's not a um it's blown out you know the the records in terms of sales for uh blob space also um let's see slot times were moved back a little bit but um i was looking at the eth labs team like this is barnaby from the eth labs team to see what they'd say about this this uh roadmap and they were actually bullish this is barnaby saying uh he likes decoupled consensus uh is very bullish he said because they're decoupling some things you get that you get the sense that eth labs might be able to move on slot times independent of this roadmap whereas like maybe the ethereum foundation isn't prioritizing it there's opportunity because they're decoupling for eth labs to come in and prioritize it so there's that too um and then one other thing i noticed which is like i don't know what this is exactly snail issuance like I've heard talk about that but like issuance ETH issuance could be on the table in some form or another it has an emoji which is like uncertainty emoji so that could be a discussion in the future too I can't believe we're gonna do another round of ETH issuance debates in the Ethereum community and like I can just see that tidal wave coming and I'm gonna take part in it because I find ETH monetary policy probably the most interesting subject about Ethereum but I'm just like I'm just gonna get so many gray hairs I do share this take that Donkrad had on the back. So Donkrad, former ETH researcher, of course, now he's at Tempo. He said the Ethereum straw map has a lot of really cool features in all caps. Fully proven STF and scaling to get gas with finality in seconds gets me excited, he said. But three to four years is very slow. I think we should be ambitious and get it done in one year. I think that's unreasonable to get it done in one year. I think if we wanted to get it done in one year, you would basically have to punt every single Ethereum developer and then get Tempo to come in and do it in their very top-down, centralized way. I don't know how we would do that in one year. So you're fine with three to four years, but not... No, I agree with Donkrad is that it should be done as soon as possible. But I just don't see how we do that. It's just not in the culture that we have in Ethereum. DeFi Ignis had a take on this. He said it was bullish overall, But he said the missing piece is ETH tokenomics, although it's a non-issue of reduced fees attract more transactions per user. That's a big if. So his thing was like, there's nothing that addresses fee generation on Ethereum. It's that kind of insight. And if the bear market continues for longer, then Tempo, Canton, they start to eat away at ETH's market share. i don't know about that latter point uh because for all this like ethereum's just in a league of its own and ethereum and to his first point about like inducing feed demand like that's no one's job to do bd and growth on ethereum that's kind of been the issue the entire time uh economics take which is just like that's issuance so it is touched on that is issuance but that's just It's not just issuance because I think what DeFi Ignis and some people are looking for is for the burn to come back, for there to be some sustained cash flows in terms of fee generation or MEV sales. And we can't force demand to happen on Ethereum. We can't just induce demand. It's not just demand. It's also supply. I mean, you can... Right, which is reducing issuance. No, no, no. Sorry. I'm talking about actual fee generation. So what I'm saying is people like DeFi Ignis think of ETH right now. as it doesn't have a value proposition unless it can generate substantial fees. Not like issuance from like fees or MEV sales, right? Like the monetary premium thing is like not a thing. We want to see discounted cash flow to ETH. And this roadmap does not create any discounted cash flows that they would like to see. I don't know what he proposes. But that's not what this roadmap would ever do. Like when did we get like the burn? We got it from DeFi Summer. We got it from NFT Mania, which is like app, the application layer creating products that people wanted. And the Ethereum Foundation and the developers were never involved with the app layer intentionally so. And so there's nothing in this protocol that is like, oh, and then here's how we create demand. It's not just a demand story. That's just the one point I want to emphasize, because the other reason you got fees was because you had restricted supply because you weren't scaling anything. See, part of the reason we have no fees right now is because supply outstrips demand. And so this is why I don't agree with the whole Ignis take and the takes that ETH needs to be a discounted cash flow type asset is because fees will never be a thing. Fees will never. Like, I think this whole roadmap, when I look at it, again, it's inkblot test. You could look at this and be like bullish or you could look at it bearish. I'll give you the bullish way to look at this. This is optimizing for ETH as a story value in a crop censorship resistant type way. And it's optimizing for slow DeFi at the cost of fast DeFi. Say, super fast slot times. You trade that off and you get privacy for your crops asset. I think what Vitalik's... Because this is kind of Vitalik's vision, right? What Vitalik is doing is he's creating a crops DeFi friendly platform with ETH as the store of value without actually saying that's what he's doing. Right. Because that's what the roadmap essentially is. That's what it delivers if you get to the end of this. Yeah. You're saying that Ethereum is a app chain. It's a application specific chain. The application is Ether. Yes. The fact that you can build Turing Complete smart contracts is really just because then we can build things like Uniswap and Aave for Ether. Yes. And we can implement the ZK, the privacy pool inside the layer one for Ether. That's what I'm saying. So it's an app chain for Ethereum. And it's about time that, because when I look at this architecture, I'm like, oh, that's what you're building. It's about time that the Ethereum community and the EF say that that's what they're building because that's what they're building. Yeah, if we as a community, as an Ethereum community, had gone back in time to 2017 and then started thinking on those terms, I think we would have ended up in a very similar yet very different spot. Whereas like, what is Ethereum for? It's for Ether versus what is Ethereum for? It's for the world. Yeah, I agree. Well, but like Ether is for the world. But I see what you're saying. Yeah, you're saying Ether is for the world, but Ethereum is for Ether. All these tokenized use cases and all that, like all the stuff that was kind of a side question. Like decentralized internet or world computer. No, no, no, no. World asset. Yep. That's right. And then Bitcoin is like, but you stole that from us. I'm like, yep, that's right. Yeah, it was a good meme. But your blockchain is boo-boo. Anyway, that's my take. I don't really know how we got there from the demand side or whatever, but whatever. Yeah. And maybe my last question on this. do you think that Ethereum is going to deliver this? Maybe not in three to four years, but say four to five years. Yeah. Like the long-term conclusion on the roadmap is inevitable. There you go. But that's just never been the issue. What do we have coming up, David? Coming up next, we're going to talk about the JP Morgan $700 million fund on Ethereum. We're going to talk about the paradigm raise. And then also we're going to do a little portfolio check-in because Ryan, I'm going to top my own portfolio and do a little victory dance about something that I think I deserve. And so we're going to talk about that and more right after we talk to some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Some exciting news. We are launching a new podcast to help people figure out the crypto cycle, how to navigate it. The best crypto cycle investor I know, his name is Michael Nato. He runs the DeFi Report. This is the guy that sent me a sell alert before the 10-10 price drop happened. His cycle analysis has been absolutely on point. I've been following him for years. And this year, we started recording weekly podcast episodes. Each one, we get into his portfolio, what he's holding, the market structure, entry targets, fair market value of Bitcoin and Ether, and where we are in the cycle. There's new episodes that are released every Wednesday. They're 30 minutes, they're short, they're punchy. I think this crypto cycle is harder to navigate than most. So let's do it together. Go subscribe to this podcast, search the DeFi report wherever you get your podcasts, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or find the link in the show notes. There's a new episode waiting for you now. Hey, Bankless Nation, it's David. If you're hearing this, that's because you are listening to the free Bankless podcast feed. Did you know that there is a premium Bankless RSS feed? The premium feed has extra interviews that I do for my own personal research and just deeper questions that I want answered about the crypto industry, questions that I want to answer so I can be more informed as an investor, both at Bankless Ventures and also just in my own personal portfolio too. Also, there are no ads, which means if you listen to the premium feed instead of the free feed, you'll get about 20 hours of your life back every year because you choose to support Bankless directly. So if you're interested in getting extra content all while skipping the ads, or you just appreciate what we do here and want us to keep doing it, we'd appreciate it if you signed up for Bankless Premium. And there is a link in the show notes to get started. Cheers to a good 2026. This is a title. JP Morgan built a $700 million fund on Ethereum and nobody noticed. So we talked about this, I don't know, a month or so ago maybe six weeks ago about jlt xx yes this is the second uh tokenized money market that jp morgan has released and there was a question at the time well will anyone care will it get any traction it's actually grown 250 in the last month so it now is now a 700 million dollar money market fund and this is all on ethereum so just a refresher of what this thing is it's It's a money market. So it's U.S. treasuries, overnight repo. It's not for typical retail investors. There's a $1 million minimum. There's some expense ratio. It is denominated in USDC. It is on public mainnet layer one. It does accept stable coins for redemptions. And it was designed for the Genius Act. And what's interesting about JP Morgan's strategy is they have their own internal blockchain system. It was once called Quorum. I always forget what it's called now. Kinexus or something. That's right. And they also deployed something on base. They deployed JPMD, which was their deposit token, and they piloted that on base. So you get the sense that their strategy is they're going to have an internal blockchain, and they're also going to have maybe payments deposit tokens on base and various L2s. But on layer one, it looks like they're building their big money market funds. And what's interesting about that is they are actually doing it on Ethereum L1, not on a layer two, not on their own internal chain. And I was kind of wondering about this question because there is a real world asset war going on out there. I think I've made the point and you've agreed that Ethereum is not necessarily optimized for real world assets, right? It's optimized for censorship resistance. It's, you know, privacy, like other things. And yet it still might win the real world asset game, or at least JP Morgan is continuing to deploy there, the biggest bank in the US. What are your thoughts on, I guess, the real world asset game here? Do you think Ethereum could actually win this by just optimizing for crops? And then as a second, it becomes the liquidity hub and wins network effect for that. And then thus becomes the home also for tokenized real world assets. Or do you think it's going to be like a knife fight out there with Canton and Tempo and even Solana rising up the ranks? The properties that Ethereum has and what it's being built for, the crop stuff, and then the properties that what real world asset tokenized issuers want and need are like somewhat overlapping but they not one to one Like no asset issuers looking at like the censorship resistance of Ethereum and being like great I can call this place home I was talking to Carlos Domingo from Securitize and they issued Securitize. What does Securitize do? They securitize assets into tokens on Ethereum or public blockchains. And so when they SPAC'd, they did the obvious thing, and then they tokenized their own equity. So this is not a Robinhood stock token. This is not an Ando, like, derivative. This is the actual equity with DTCC compliance because they're a transfer agent. They do all this stuff. So it's the actual equity. It's KYC'd on the Ethereum layer one. You have to have a KYC to get it because that's how equities work. Excuse me. It's not on the Ethereum one. It's on Solana and it is on Avalanche. Why is it there? Because Avalanche has the permissions and the compliance needed that securitized needs to make that work. And why is it on Solana? Because Solana has like the prop AMM ecosystem to provide the really tight slippage because there's just a lot of regulation and constraints about how to compliantly issue these things. And right now they can only do it on Avalanche and Solana. They're going to do it on Ethereum, but the fact that it's not first on Ethereum is very notable to me. And I asked Carlos, like, why not? And he was like, well, the block times are really slow and that prevents our market makers from being able to compliantly quote the price that it needs to be because they have to give you the asset at a best price because they need to give you it at the best price. There's like some stupid rules about it, which actually the SEC is going to eliminate in a year, which is interesting. But it's just like Ethereum has properties and those are adjacent, somewhat congruous, somewhat parallel to real world asset tokenized issuer needs, but they are not the same thing. So it's not clear cut. It's not the case that Ethereum will be the default for this. No. It will be the default in some cases. It seems to be at least currently the default for JP Morgan, their money market fund. But I mean, I guess that could erode. That could change over time. Or it could be the default for certain types of DeFi use cases. Like this is kind of a vault use case. This is definitely a slow DeFi type use case. I found the EtherScan for this. So I'm looking at this. It's not even listed on CoinGecko. It's got like a preview page on CoinGecko. The EtherScan has six total wallet holders of this thing. So these are just whales kind of just parking stuff in there. Yeah, like one wallet holds like 83% of it. And so like this is like an accounting tool as far as I'm concerned. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, the other question is if Ethereum does win the real world asset, you know, war anyway, or let's say it wins majority, something like 60%. Does that even matter for ETH price? Does that matter for ETH price? Marginally. Yeah, that's kind of what I think too. Yeah. A non-zero amount. Paradigm has raised $1.2 billion for their fund for David. They've kind of pivoted into AI a little bit. But I think more like a little bit. Yeah. So I don't think there's any crypto, like 100% crypto VC left. No one is a, let me know if I'm wrong, at me on Twitter, but like no one is a crypto only VC anymore. And you're seeing this raise reflected with Paradigm. $1.2 billion is a pretty chunky raise. but they have also said in addition to crypto they are also going to be investing in AI and robotics and just other frontier technologies which I think is like the right category like that's kind of what I'm interested in is like frontier technology broadly crypto has something to do with it like Venice for example private AI AI also crypto frontier technology absolutely like using like near like near AI to do all that kind of stuff like frontier tech and that's sick and so that category is what I think kind of crypto is now. It's just like crypto plus frontier tech. This era in general, can we extrapolate this, has seen kind of the death of the crypto-only investor. Correct. Like there aren't crypto-only VC firms as you pointed out, but you're not a crypto-only investor, right? Like who's left as a crypto-only investor? There are a handful of people. Most people are playing into other assets though and other frontier tech. I mean, like, I have more of my money in the stock market than doing crypto. That's the first time since I ever met you. I think that's probably the case, right? Yes. Yes. Yeah. So this is a story of what everyone is doing this cycle. Yeah. David, you included this. The CFTC talking to the CME, telling them to buzz off. What's this about? Yeah, the CME filed to do 24-7, 365 markets. I think it's just starting with their oil market. And they asked the CFTC if they could do that. And the CFTC just said, no, you can't do that. That is not what you are for. Like, stay in your lane, bro. And kind of interesting. I don't really know, like, all the nuances behind this. But this is very much, the CME very much did this in response to Hyperliquid and the 24-7, 365 Perpdexes, listing oil and gold and all this stuff. And so the fact that the CFTC is telling CME is like, this is not what you guys are for. Like, stay in your arena. do what you're good at, and then let the perpdexes do what they're good at. That's kind of what I think is happening here. This is why Jake Stravinsky is tweeting this tweet, because he's at the Hyperliquid Policy Center, so he would know, and he's able to read between the lines. But I do think it's interesting that there is a war being fought. In the same way the banks and Coinbase and crypto have been fighting each other for the past four years, there is a brewing war between the commodities exchanges and the perpdexes. and yet within that too the cycle there's a war between the perpstexes themselves i think maybe this gets into a little bit of your portfolio but uh before we started recording you told me you think that hyper liquid versus lighter is the now i think you said the new uh ethereum versus solana yeah or something yeah it's a new ether solana that's right so what's interesting is it does feel like every single bull cycle for your cycle we do get some kind of dichotomy of competitors here. It's like, I think 2017 is very much the Bitcoin versus Ethereum kind of cycle. Maybe previous to that, it was, or like after that, it was Ethereum, let's say, versus Solana or Ethereum versus the ETH killers. Are you planting a narrative that this cycle might be like the big perp DEXs fighting off Ethereum? Or sorry, it was Hyperliquid versus Lighter. Is that just going to be a sub story of this? I don't know if I'm planting the narrative, but this happened downstream of the Leiter partnership with the Robinhood wallet and just getting the endorsement from Robinhood. Now there are a bunch of very triggered .HLs. Remember the .ETHs? We were the .ETHs. Now there's .HLs. Is .HL like the ENS for Hyperliquid? I don't know if it's an ENS. I think they just did it. Maybe it's actually real. I wouldn't know. But Hyperliquid has made a ton of people very wealthy and has earned like one of the hearts and minds of like a lot of people because they got the hyperliquid airdrop and they got wealthy as a result of it. And so it's, it's created a very strong tribe. And now like lighter has pumped like 50% or something in the last like week or so off of the back of like the Robin Hood announcement, which is, you know, an insult to the identity of a hyperliquid person. Like how dare any other perp decks do anything good. And so now you're starting to see like the, the lighter versus hyperliquid tribe emerge and I like I'm not used to being the smaller guy I'm I'm chosen a tribe you're indicating you've chosen I own both I own both in a very healthy like one-to-one ratio okay and so uh but like yeah I think lighter has more growth to it and so like I kind of identify with like the lighter camp yeah so you're team lighter and you're excited about letter what is the what is the case for lighter versus hyper liquid I'm curious is someone from the the lighter tribe? What would they say? Yeah, Leiter is the very technically competent, I think it could potentially create a framework for the end game of exchanges, like full stop, not just crypto exchanges, not just Perpdexes, but exchanges like the NASDAQ and the NYSE, stuff like this. A high-performant app-specific ZKL2 is such a logical conclusion of exchange technology. And Leiter posted a blog post about all of the tech that went behind like shaving off microseconds on like latency around hyperliquid and like all this kind of stuff. It was, I started reading it. I was like, this is breaking my brain. I don't understand this. But like the point was, point was made. And you get all of the assurances of the ZK. So like the individual user can verify the state of the exchange and the validity of the exchange and the exchange playing by the rules, which feels very good. Like a lot of the CryptoPunk ethos. But mainly they are positioned to take the U.S. market. And so Vlad from Leiter, not to be confused with Vlad from Robinhood, but Vlad from Leiter, who they're buddies, by the way, which is funny. He's on the CFTC advisory, like innovation advisory board. And Leiter is just at the gate waiting to get a CFTC license to penetrate the U.S. market. and they're doing the Coinbase thing rather than what Hyperliquid's strategy is, which is being like the one perpdex to rule them all. You go to Hyperliquid. It's a first party exchange. You know, builders build on Hyperliquid, kind of like, you know, on Ethereum. Everyone comes to Ethereum layer one that's kind of like Hyperliquid. Lighter is a little bit more like a hub and spoke model where they have a spoke now out to Robinhood chain and it's its own instance on Robinhood chain. But with ZK technology, a lot of the liquidity flows back to the main hub. And so this is like compliance spokes for bespoke compliance needs. So if any, if Charles Schwab wants to build a perpdex, but they need to KYC all of the traders, all the liquidity and all this kind of stuff, Leiter can do that. And they can do that with their specific technology. And they have a bunch of forward deployed engineers. So the whole idea is they just send their engineers to the United States financial institution to the world who want perpdex stuff. and then the forward deployed engineers build it into the brokerage or Robinhood Jane or whoever. And because each one is its own bespoke walled garden, it's highly compliant with U.S. regulation. So that's kind of the pitch for Leiter as it differentiates from Hyperliquid. It sounds like there's a little bit of a Binance versus Coinbase thing going on here or like a Tether versus USDC. It's like offshore versus onshore, yeah. Yeah, so that's the element of this. Okay, so Broadnet, what's your portfolio like these days? So you said you were going to talk about it. So what's gone well? What hasn't gone well? I think this is since you made some changes in May, correct? Yeah. So this is the tweet that got some attention because I tweeted it out at the actual picotop of a lot of these tokens. And so people were making fun of me on Twitter because they were reading it as if I bought the tokens in that moment. And then they were at the picotop. And I tweeted this tweet in that moment because it was a brag. I wanted to remind people that I bought these tokens and they were all up. but I bought these tokens in like May, May like 9th or something. And then Lit was the token that I bought on June 3rd with like the bulk of my, it's the Ether portfolio that I sold. And so I would like to do an account of how these, people will call them trades. I will call them investments. There'll be trades if I sell them too soon, but since I hold all of them still, they are in the category of investments in my mind. And so Zcash, I'm down 20%. hype, I'm up 56%. VVV, I'm down 20%. Near, I'm up 25%. And then lit, which is a token that is my largest position, is up 80%. So that's my little victory that I'd like to take. So you are moving into kind of your trader era, but I guess. I don't know if that's right, because I'm not going in and out of stuff. Maybe you're just rebalancing towards something in crypto that is much more application forward, let's say, use case forward. Yeah, and they're all much smaller market caps, which just feels safer to me by comparison because like ETH has to justify a much higher market cap and it has to just work harder for that. And like when I look at like Lit, that's like a $600 million market cap. I'm like, oh, there's a potential large amount of growth here. And that's kind of where I like the smaller caps rather than just like, like ETH was great. and because of what it was, like money, internet money, all that kind of stuff. But like commanding, like trying to get to a trillion dollars, like that's a really hard fight. That's a hard fight, as we've seen in the past five years. Yeah. Well, congrats on those gains, David. I'm looking forward to seeing how that does in the future and where you choose to deploy. I think like for me, I'm kind of like, I'm still waiting for the bottom signal. You're waiting for people to puke up some stuff? Yeah, I don't think it's quite time. I think we're nine and a half months into this thing. I still think it's going to take a few more months for this to sort itself out. I don't think we've seen the bottoms yet. What is your shopping list? I like Lit would be on there, except it's had an incredible run from the very beginning. So if I bought Lit, it would be at some lows. I have some Bitcoin, obviously, on the lows would be interesting. I don't know I haven't fully decided I mean I'm I'm really enjoying Michael Nato's work in his watch list like a number of these are holdings that he has for example he's looking at Zach he thinks it's overpriced he's been a big bowl of lit not quite in near but there's some things on his list that I've been eyeing as well so I just don't think we put a pump on you're gonna buy pump it's printing some revenue which is insane and that's hard to ignore if you believe in kind of like, well, an application has to deliver revenue, doesn't it? That's what Hyperliquid and Lint do. They have the potential to do that. So does Pump. So that's something I'm weighing, but it's hard for me to get really excited about that particular use case. Yeah, I can't imagine you holding on to Pump for a long amount of time. Right, right. Anyway, we have to end it there. David, can I show you these magic alien hands? Oh yeah, sure. What you got? Yeah. This is the most wild thing I have seen on Twitter in a long time. So for the listeners, we are looking at an actuating robot hand with just seemingly perfect, high-fidelity, human-like movement in all of the fingers. Is this real? What is real? What am I looking at? We solved fingers? We solved fingers. Elon has said fingers are the hardest part of a robot. Yeah, fingers are the hardest part. That's right. dude the future is going to be wild I think that's the message I would like to leave this podcast with future is going to be weird I'm pretty excited about it though I'm pretty excited actually I've gotten over some of the existential stuff of AI maybe that's because I'm using it daily it's improving my life I don't know and then what choice do we have so anyway we'll see alright Bankless Nation we'll see you once again with Ryan and David on the weekly roll up in 7 days but until then crypto is risky you can lose what you put in But nonetheless, this frontier is not for everyone, but we are glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.