Kerry Washington: Power, Perfection & Olivia Pope

Hi, Daddy Gang. Before we get into today's conversation, I just want to share a content warning. This episode includes discussions of eating disorders and suicidal ideation. If you or someone you love needs support, we have included resources in the show notes. Please take care while you are listening to this week's episode. Love you guys. Carrie Washington, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank you. I can't believe I'm here. No, like, okay, I need to take a second to just fangirl for two seconds. Oh my God. I, this is a full circle moment for me because growing up in Pennsylvania, yes, my mom and I would bond, scandal, obsessing over Olivia Pope. I love that. But you really brought this woman to life who was so powerful and bold and brilliant and unapologetic in a way that I felt like I hadn't seen on television before. And it was such a bonding experience for my mother and I because she was like, you can be like that and you can do those things. So I'm going to cry already. We're like two seconds in because so I feel like I know your mom because of your documentary. And I think your parents are such a powerful example of what real loving parenting looks like. The way that they give you permission to be you and then like stood by you through your hardest. I mean, I learned so much about being a mom watching your documentary. So I love that you guys bonded watching this show. Lori's going to watch this and be like at home screaming like, Brian, did you hear Carrie Washington just say my name? No, no, no, no. They really, they really gave you, they have given you permission that you have then like taken on. I mean, you are your own beast. I don't want to take anything away from you. But without them, like I couldn't have achieved what I have achieved. And so to yes, have a mother that was watching with me being like, look at this woman, look what she is embodying and what she's doing to now sit across from you. It's very surreal for me. So thank you for taking time out of your day to join me on this show. This is an honor getting right into it though, because speaking of her being so bold and obviously you are also in your own right bold, but like when you first took on Olivia Pope, which is something very big to take on, did you realize how much that role was going to shift the conversation around women on television at the time? So yes and no, like I, all of the press when scandal came out, a very big portion of the press when scandal came out was about the fact that it had been almost 40 years since a black woman had been the lead on a network drama. And I was I think 37 at the time. So in my lifetime, I had never seen it. A lot of my peers, we'd never seen it. And so there was all of this talk about how historic the show was. We didn't know if the show was going to work. We didn't know if anybody would watch the show, but that kind of pressure around it, I felt like if we don't win, it might be another 40 years before a woman of color has the chance to be the number one on a show. But that's a lot of pressure to also put on yourself. But also, again, it was an exercise of like really trying to be clear about what I can control and what I can't. Like I cannot control whether people turn on their televisions on Thursday night and watch my show. What I can control is my work ethic, like pouring my heart into it, leaving it all out on the court, like doing everything that I can do to make it great. And also on the marketing side, like we had that whole idea of live tweet, the show, like I can do everything in my power to try to make it a success, but in the end, I can't control what happens. It's a great point. And in those beginning days, like what qualities did you love about her when you first read the material? So when I first read it, I literally threw the script across the room because I was like, this is me. Like it felt like it was written for me. It was, but also like there were 20 other actresses that felt the same way. So I do audition multiple times. But I think what I loved about her was it's so funny because this is very related to the show I have coming out now as well. What I loved about her was that she had the presentation of power, like she performed power in the world and she was very powerful. But also behind closed doors, there was this contradiction of being like so heartbroken and like her personal life was a mess, just a fucking mess. Just a little bit. Yes. And so that dynamic, that duality I've really identified with. I've really identified with like the presentation of self versus the truth of self. I love that too because I agree, which we're going to get to your new show. It's like the presentation of a woman. Most people just take that at face value. And it's like, oh, that's never as it seems. We're so much more complicated and cool than that. We have more going on. Please. Of course we do. In what ways did she challenge you in those beginning days? Well, I think she taught me a lot about leadership because the character was the leader. She had her own company. She was the leader of all the gladiators. She was the most powerful woman in the White House. And in real life, I was number one on the call sheet and eventually a producer on the show. And so I think she really taught me a lot about what it looks like and feels like to be the lead character, both on and off screen. Interesting. Yeah. In a way, how empowering because sometimes I feel like as a woman, that must have been kind of incredible to be given the role play leadership. It was like, literally like put on the shoes, put on the suits. It's your job to pretend that you have all the power in the room. It was such a great exercise. It was like a training ground for me. What's also so crazy to me is as we're talking about this, I know that obviously this character became one of the most beloved on television of all time. You were going to completely quit acting altogether almost before you started Scandal. Kiri, what was going on in your life? It's happened a couple of times in my career. Because I love to act. I love acting. I love the research. I love disappearing into a character. I love figuring out how she walks and what music she listens to and what perfume she wears and how she speaks and how she stands. I love all of that. The business around it, the politics around it, I don't always love. The people feeling like they can, they have agency to tell you what to do with your body or the rejection and all of that stuff is the competitive nature of it at times. That stuff I do not like. I don't like it all. And that's what I think has been so fascinating whenever I've gotten to sit down with actors and actresses. It's like, we see the glamorous parts. We see the billboards. We see the premieres. Exactly. And I'm like, I love this character. But to get to that point, there is a lot that goes into it. There's a lot of executives that have a say. There's a lot of marketing and branding. And they want you to be malleable. And so there is also a dynamic at play where you're kind of upon as an actor. And that until you garner some form of power, you kind of have to play the game and you have to decide at what expense or what level are you willing to push yourself. Where do I draw the line? And I think for me, that's part of why I really fell in love with producing. About halfway through scandal, I started my production company, Simpson Street. We made a film called Confirmation where I played Anita Hill. And that was like, oh, now I get it now because I actually don't have to sit at home and wait for somebody to invite me to a party. Like I can throw my own party, which you know, like you create your own opportunity. And that has been very freeing for me. And it is freeing. And also to give credit to like everyone needs the stepping stone of you have to go work in the capacity that you see what you like and you don't like. That's right. Then as you build your power and your name, you can then be the person that maybe changes things through your production company to be like, I want things to run this way because I've experienced the latter. Yeah. And I think as you know from your journey, like you don't always know exactly what you're doing in the beginning. But I learned from role playing power in Olivia Pope, like sometimes you just put the shoes on and walk down the hall and you figure it out along the way, right? Like you grab your Prada purse and you like you step into it and you'll discover it along the way. If you ask for help and you're willing to make mistakes and you just keep like falling forward, men are really allowed to fall forward, fall upward. And I feel like we have to give ourselves permission to do that too. Like a mistake is not the end. A mistake is an opportunity to learn and grow, iterate, shift, move forward. But that's why it's also so nice hearing from someone like you who again, we see in media and you've had such success. And that's why I wanted to kind of go back to those OG days of like you walking into Shonda Rhimes office and you walk in and on the walls, it says Shondaland. It's her name. I was like, what, what were you expecting when you walked in for that first meeting? I think I was worried. I was nervous. I was nervous because she had so much power. And like to walk into it, I wasn't comfortable yet in my power. So to sit down with somebody who was comfortable enough with her power to have the walls covered in her name and like she was very comfortable in her power. I think I was nervous about what that would look like, what it would feel like if we would get along. And it was amazing. Like five minutes into the conversation, I was like, I'm obsessed with her. I want to live in Shondaland. I want to be a citizen of Shondaland. I'm obsessed. You know, she's, she's so generous and she's such a genius. And I, and you realize like, oh, society tells us that we should be intimidated or scared or uncomfortable around a powerful woman, but there's nothing dangerous about this. When you think back to your time with Shonda and you both now being such obviously powerful women, is there like a memory or a story that you think really paints the picture of your dynamic over those seven seasons together? Hmm. Oh, there's so many. But the one I, that really comes to mind first is when I was pregnant with my first child that I had. So my second child, but first that I first that I birthed. I was so nervous to tell Shonda because I knew that it could be very disruptive to our shooting schedule and to our work environment. And I was determined to work for as long as I could and you know, to keep the show going. And, but so I was worried. I was nervous to tell her. And I asked her to come to my trailer. And not only was she happy for me, she like actually jumped up and down with joy in my trailer. Like I couldn't believe it. She was genuinely thrilled for me and committed to helping me do this in a healthy, sane, positive way while also protecting our show. That is so refreshing to hear because I think they're very far and few between people who have ever had that experience with their quote unquote boss or someone that they're in a job with, right? And also I think going back to what you had said of like, it had almost been 40 years since we had seen a black woman have a role lead in a drama network television. So, so this pressure on you, I remember reading like the network said casting you as a lead was a risk. And Shonda was so, so open about wanting you as that person. Like how did those comments affect both of you though? Hmm. I can't speak for Shonda. But we knew that we, we knew that we were lucky to have each other. That we, you know, so often in these spaces, you're the only woman in the room or the only black woman in the room. And so to be able to have each other and then Judy Smith who inspired the character and another really amazing writer in the writers from Ramla Muhammad, who is kind of, we've grown up together because she was a research assistant initially on scandal. And then I brought her with me to Little Fires Everywhere. And now she's the showrunner on Reasonable Doubt, which we produce. So she's, that's been also really special. You're keeping your people close. Yeah. So that, that dynamic, I think Shonda and I were like, we had each other, we had each other's backs. And there was always a great deal of respect. I knew she was my boss, but she would also say to me like, I want your thoughts. But I would say like, four things that I loved about a script before I ever gave any feedback that was to change something, right? Like, and I wasn't manufacturing that. It was really like, there's so much that I love about this. And also there's this one thing I'm bumping on. And like, now obviously we know it's such a success, but and, and in that moment hearing from executives like, this is a risk, then you have success. Like, was there any part of you that was so happy to be able to prove people wrong? Like, was there any element that you were still looking a little bit back to how they didn't potentially want you in the beginning days? I think the thing that I felt most was excited that it wasn't going to be another 40 years. Like halfway through scandal, ABC launched how to get away with murder. And you had Quantico, which was not a black woman, but a woman of color. And you had Empire on another network on Fox. Like you had suddenly networks were like, maybe it's not so much of a risk. In fact, maybe we need to find our black lead. Like they were really clued into the cultural value of allowing black women to stand at the center of a story. And I think it was so exciting for audiences too. Like there was this mutual excitement. There were people who loved the show because suddenly they were seeing themselves on television. And that was so fulfilling. And so just like, I felt so proud to be offering my sisters that opportunity. And then there were all these people that were like, I knew Olivia Pope was a black woman, they were closest to in their life. Like they were out being allowed a window into the life of a black woman that they didn't have any black women that they were that intimate with. And both of those things were so exciting to me, because they were both kind of collapsing the idea that there's a group of people that don't matter. Right. What you're essentially also saying is scandal opened the door and in a lot of ways, because it was like, had this not yes been successful, you're right, it could have been another 40 years. And instead, it actually propelled so many shows to immediately get on air because of its success. So because of that, we need to play a little rapid fire. Oh, okay. No pressure. I'll participate a little bit. Okay, you know, I also rewatched it recently. So like, don't worry. What do you think was the worst crisis you can remember that Olivia ever had to clean up? I loved the very, very first crisis in our pilot because I was like, oh, from jump, this show is diving into issues. Like the fact that I was protecting a member of the queer community in the military, I was like, oh, we're not only is she having an affair, not only is an interracial relationship, not only it's like also my client is gay. Oh, let's fucking go. We're hitting it right out the gate. Like this show, it's like like it or leaving. Yes, truly. No, I was thinking about that too. And then I was like, you know what, I also would just have to go like the election rigging. I mean, that broke my heart. That broke my heart. I was like, I of all the things and the cases, I didn't want to talk about that in the world we live in right now. I know. So scary. Truly. Yes. But I was like horrifying. Citron and the defiance Ohio. I was stressed. Yes. Well, I think also Olivia getting kidnapped. Oh, that was that was what is happening. Yeah. Put our girl back in here was insane. I just remember being like, why are they doing this to her? Um, Fitz fix it. Okay. He did. He tried. He did. In your opinion, what is the most iconic Olivia Pope line of all time? It has to be is handled. It has to be. It's the one that gets quoted to me most often. Yeah. Is it handled? I agree. I also wrote down, I know this isn't the most iconic, but I remember this because I was like, I wish I could have said this to an ex boyfriend. Tell me, tell me, you said, I'm not the girl the guy gets at the end of the movie. I'm not a fantasy. If you want me, earn me. Earn me. Until then, we're done. I was like, why did I not use that on a boy? Like that is gold. There's still time. Okay, fair. Well, I'm married to I'll tell I'll tell Matt for a fight one day. He's like, what are you talking about? I'm like, you don't get it. Okay. What was the most fun episode to film and why? Oh, wow. Anytime we had like big state gallows, like this is probably not a nice thing to say, but actually the episode when Fitz got shot was so much fun to shoot. Like that dress, I'm obsessed with that dress and it just was so dramatic and the exteriors, it was just a really, I remember being in that hospital, we shot at a hospital on location. It was truly this like very windy night. And so I remember like the moving camera and like the wind is blowing my hair in the gown. It was like, this shot is great. I know it is stunning. It's very stressed. Also, I loved when you would wear gloves you would go all out. Sometimes directors would be like, do you need gloves? We'd be like, yes. Yes, it needs to be so over the top. Olivia would. If you had to choose, what was the hottest Olivia and Fitz moment? If I had to choose, I think the hottest Olivia and Fitz moment was the first time and this was Eva DuVernay's episode, the first time we got to go to Vermont. I just think that house was so beautiful, the like helicopter landing on the lawn. I think that whole moment was just so beyond dreamy and you know that we got to actually see Vermont was pretty spectacular, which was really Calabasas, not Vermont, but stop. I'm like, you never told me that. What are you talking about? No, you're in Vermont. Oh my God. Making jam. Oh my God. I can't unsee that now. Okay, you have your phone? Yes. Would you call Tony and ask him what he thinks his favorite go to iconic romantic moment of the two of us? He might be on set. Let's try it. Let's try. If not, I'll tell you mine way less interesting. You have to tell me yours regardless. He's gonna think something's wrong. He's like, why is she calling? I only read. Hi, Kerry. Hi, Tony. I'm in the middle of an interview and I got dared to call you. So I have to ask you a question. Are you ready? Should I say, uh-oh? Yeah, you should always say, uh-oh. Where are you right now? Just give the give the fans some context. Where are you? I'm in Washington DC. Of course you are. We're doing X. My kids are here in JNZ. They're gonna take them to our show. She's Joey. Oh, Tony's doing a show in DC at Arena. Everybody should go see it. Okay. Yes. So I have to ask you what you think the hottest Olivia and Fitz moment on the show ever was. Whoa. We had a few. We did have a few. I mean, the one minute. I didn't say the one minutes. I probably should have said one minute. Is that what you were gonna say? No, what were you gonna say? I was thinking of having sex in an electrical closet. Oh, there's that one. That was like the somebody was getting baptized. Like what if you're children, right? We were such bad people. My favorite minute was sitting in your apartment. That's the first one. The first one minute. Yeah, the first one. Well, in chronological order, the hallway. Yeah. But on the show in filming, it was in my apartment. I said Vermont. I was like the first time we got to see Vermont. Oh, Vermont. Yeah, that was right. Yeah, that was pretty good. That was when the Ava directed, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Good memory. Thank you, Tony. All right. I'll let you go. I love you, madly. I'm good. I'm just in the middle of doing call her daddy. So we called her daddy. We called Olivia's daddy. Okay. Bye. Love you. I'm having heart palpitations. I'm so happy he picked up. He's such a busy person. Tony, not Tony being in DC right now, telling us that he loved fucking in the electrical closet. Not that it really happened. It's one of the very few scenes that Olivia Popour addressed because the way the scene was written, we had to, like, in the closet had to be addressed. So it's like one of those rare, like, I guess for, events in churches, maybe she wears, so it was a baptism. So she had a dress on. So then in the closet, we could do what we did in the closet. It's insane. So you two have stayed friends since? Yes. Although it's hard for me to get him on the phone because he mostly hangs out with my husband, which is hilarious. So like when he's in New York, I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, well, I'm seeing Namdee tomorrow. I'm like, can I see you? But yes, we have, we've all remained friends. I just hiked with Katie Lowe's last week. Like, yeah. Do you think they made it in the show at the end? I love, I know it's very hard to end a show. I love how the show ended with them like seeing each other and just that classic high. I think it's really sweet because it lets you kind of imagine however you want it to be. But I know a lot of people really hope for them that they're in Vermont making jam and happy. And I was going to say one of my favorite moments was I think it was one of his, one of his birthday dinners and you guys meet out on the lawn and you're like, you cheated on your mistress with your girlfriend or whatever. And he was like, don't ever call yourself that. And he said, I love you. I'm in love with you. You're the love of my life. And the way he said it. And he's like, you control me my every being. You own me. Yeah, it's really like you own me. I was like, oh my God, I'm trying to stop. Like I'm not okay. She's such a romantic. She's such an incredible writer. I think she's it's it's a gift how she gets to the thing that will make us all like turn into a puddle. I'm not over the heat. Just answered. I'm like, I'm like blushing. I'm like, I'm hearing you two talk. Okay. Okay, we're moving on. Okay. Okay. What is a personal moment in your life? You got a little clout because people around you, your kids were there and everyone thought you were Olivia Pope. They're talking to you about Olivia Pope and your kids are like, Oh mom, you're actually cool. So I would think I would, my kids do, let me be very clear, my kids do not think I'm cool. This is very clear, because they will have like go on a national campaign to refute me if I attempt to assert that they think I'm cool. They do not think I'm cool, but they were my daughter. So my daughter's first concert was T-Swift and which was very sweet. This is my younger daughter and we went with her older sister and a bunch of friends. But then I was like, okay, Beyonce's performing in this same place later this summer, like as a black mom, there is no way that I'm not letting you see a black woman do in this space. What Taylor Swift did in this space. So she wasn't yet, she was a little young because it was Renaissance. So she wasn't like a huge, she like knew Destiny Child songs, but she wasn't Renaissance wasn't really like her album. She came and when we were walking through the crowd, people were like Olivia and she was like, who is Olivia? Like she, she was like, what, who did they think you are? Like that is not your name. And it was a little weird to her how crazy people were going until backstage at like the Friends and Family Recept first of all, she loved the concert. Like that was the night I witnessed my youngest daughter become a stan like a Beyonce, Beehive, like she was like blown away. Yeah. And then Cal Boy Carter is her album. Like we went to, we had a girls weekend in Vegas to see her together. Like you're welcome. So yes, I put you on. Exactly. But that night we went backstage to like the Friends and Family thing afterward. And she, people were asking to take pictures with me, which she thought was really weird. And then she was like, well, can I get a picture with Bieber? And I was like, Hondo P. I think that was like the one moment where she was like, my mom might be slightly cool. She may be a half a second. Some strings for me for a half a second. Okay. So you had some clout for a minute. Clout with the kids. Yeah. I love that for you. Do you believe Olivia Pope eventually became the president of the United States? Do you? I go back and forth because I think a part of her was so, of course she could be. Like if she wanted to be, she could have been, but there was a part of her that just loved her wine, her popcorn, hanging out. And she liked being behind the scenes in moments. And so would she really want the fiasco that comes with? I don't know. I think she's more of a behind the scenes person. I do. And to clarify, like I would have voted for her. Oh, definitely. I would have. There's no better option. Absolutely. For her mental health. I vote for her today. I would vote for her tento's down. Tentos down. Just ready to go. Phone banking, knocking on doors. I'd be doing it all. I'd be ready. I'd be ready. Okay. Are there any scandal, reboot or movie conversations in the works? There aren't. Although this joke about Chase Infinity and Tariq being our children, this is like the joke that will not die. And I love it so much. They actually do like, she has my smile and Tariq has his smile. It's so absurd. It is kind of weird. So we actually just started a family text thread. Dad, Tariq texted me yesterday and was like, Chase, I don't, I know you don't have Carrie's number, but now it's a fit. So I was like, do I bring Tony into this text thread? It's hilarious. Yeah. We can all pray. Yeah. Yeah. One of the most impactful moments on scandal was when Olivia Pope had an abortion. And when I interviewed Shonda, she told me that the network pushed back on that storyline and she really had to fight to keep it in. We didn't know if we were going to air that night. Like down to the wire. I was like, what are they going to do? Are they going to like show reruns? Because they were locked in the disagreement about what it could and could not be. So you literally sat there and waited to see if it aired. Yeah. What did it feel like for you to be at the center of that moment, publicly and privately, with the network and everything? I was so proud. I was so proud of Shonda. I was so proud of our whole cast. I was so proud to have shot that scene. There had been characters on television who had had abortions, but it was the first time that you got to watch a woman actually in the procedure. And obviously there was nothing graphic about the scene, but it was about her inner life and her emotional reality in that process. And I just, as somebody who had had an abortion and as somebody who has fought for reproductive rights my whole life, it feels like, I was so, so proud. I know. I was going to say in your memoir, like you open up about your abortion in your late 20s and so many people connected to you, but going back to that moment, like what emotions did you feel not only writing about your experience, but then also releasing it to the world? Okay. So first I want to say that I watch a lot of clips of the show, like a lot of people, like I catch parts of the episode that I love the most that I watched beginning to end was your trip to North Carolina. And you say in that episode, if there's one episode you're going to watch, it should be this one. So I just want everybody who's listening, if you have not watched the North Carolina episode, pause this one. We're not going to go anywhere. We will be here. Pause this episode. Go listen to and watch the North Carolina episode where you are so brave and that work you do is so important in that episode. And then you can come back and we'll be here. We'll link it right below. Go ahead. We'll be right here. So welcome back. Thank you. Now we're here. You're educated. Perfect. Let's go. You see what a badass she is. So okay, I, when I was writing my memoir, I did that thing that people tell you to do of like, just write everything and then you can decide later what's really going to go in. Because if I wrote the book thinking about people reading it, I would have written one word. Like there would not have gotten past the first page. So I did a lot of writing of just like vomiting on the page of experiences. And I remember the morning that I was like, I'm going to write about this thing. And I wrote about my abortion experience. And I was like, that's never going to be in the book. And I like put it in the file of things that will not be in the book. And then when I handed in my book to my editor, there was a line leader in the book about my abortions and miscarriages. And she was like, Hey, like circled it. Can we get more context here? Like you just drop this in the book, but you don't share about your miscarriages or abortions. And I was like, Oh God, and I had to like file through my computer to try to find it. And then having some distance from it, rereading it, I thought, I want to share this, I do want to share this because a lot of what my abortion story is about is my personal loss of privacy. And it is our right to privacy that has been taken away from us. That is how Roe v Wade got returned, reversed. And I just think I'm not a bad person because I've had an abortion. And you get to disagree with anybody gets to disagree with me. Absolutely. You don't, you don't think I did the right thing with my body. You are allowed to believe that. I don't love the judgment, but I make room for it because everybody is who they are. What you can't do, what I don't want you to do, what I'm going to fight till the day I die to make sure you can't do is to make decisions about what I do with my body. Like your opinion is yours, but my body, my bodily autonomy, my ability to decide how and when I start a family, that needs to be mine. It's so sad because it sounds so simple. It sounds so simple. And obviously it's not for you, Carrie, like you felt like you said ready to tell it, but were you nervous at all about the reaction? I was. I don't know if my parents even knew at that point that I had had an abortion. My husband knew, but I don't, I know there were friends and family members who didn't know. So I was nervous, but I also felt like, I mean, I'm just, what's the point? And at this point, I was writing this book, like really revealing myself. I talked about my eating disorder. I talked about my genetic background. I talked about sexual abuse. I mean, I was like, why would I hold this back? Right? Like what am I, what would I be protecting in holding this back? And I think there's our reproductive lives are so shrouded in secrecy. We don't talk about abortion or miscarriages or adoption or infertility or even our periods or menopause. And I just think we have to take the cloaks off of our reproductive lives. Like our bodies are our bodies. Abortion is healthcare. Infertility treatment is healthcare. Like this is, it doesn't have to be filled with shame. It doesn't. And I think what is so hard though is because it is, and that is the stigma, it does take strong women like yourself who come forward knowing there's going to be backlash, knowing there will be judgment, knowing that there are people in the world that may never look at you the same. You can lose fans because of this. Because it is such a definitive line in the sand for some people. So it does, it hurts me to know that it's also at the cost of so many women having to be so strong in the capacity that it shouldn't have to be. You know, I was thinking about it. You shot that scene for scandal and you had not at that time publicly talked about your abortion yet. Was it triggering it all to film that scene? I don't think it was triggering to film it. I do think it was cathartic. It like allowed me to, sometimes in my work as an actor, what I'm doing is like what looks like truth on screen is often because an actor will try to find the closest truth that I know to what the character is going through and share that through the character's body and through her words. So what, the gift that I got in filming that scene was I got to share my truth through Olivia Pope. I got to say like, this is something that happened to me. This is something that I chose. This is something that I've lived through and I'm not going to hide it anymore. Even though I was hiding it, like on some deeper emotional level, I was able to say like, I'm going to step into the truth of this moment and share it with all of you. So you just showed up every day that you were filming that just yes, keeping it to yourself and just pouring it into the work. And at the end of that, it just fully felt cathartic. There was no, it felt like I had less to hide. That's the healing that often happens through characters is that I feel like, and you must have felt this also doing your documentary that like on the other side of it, which was your real, real, real truth. On the other side of it, I just often, when a character is really, when I'm lucky, a character lets me share a truth through her. And on the other side of it, I feel a little bit healed. It's beautiful. Yeah. I know that you also wrote, which I think is so important to point out, because to women who are listening to this, this is probably a very, very relatable feeling of the shame and embarrassment that you were feeling leading up to the procedure and the loneliness, right? If you could go back, what kind of empathy or just kindness do you wish you could have shown yourself? It took me a long time to forgive myself, not for having the abortion. I really knew that that was the right choice for me, but it took me a long time to forgive myself for getting pregnant. And I learned a lot about myself about, I learned a lot about what was going on for me mentally and emotionally that I allowed that to happen. And it really invited me to figure out how to stand up for myself and my boundaries more, how to be more honest with myself in the moment, and how to stay in my body. I have a lifetime of disembodiment, of based on sexual abuse, based on all kinds of stuff, of leaving my body. And I feel like so much of my life and my work as an actor has been about trying to figure out how to be back in my body and live and stay present in my body. And that experience was really like a line in the sand for me of like, this is the situation I have found myself in because I do not know how to stay in my body and in my truth. I mean, that's so, even hearing you say that, Kerry, it's so one, yes, like hard, but also two, I can't help but be like, yes, but it does take two. And so I can't help but be like, oh, but give yourself even more grace in that. But I'm hearing what you're saying also, which I think is one of the most terrifying and scary and unsaid things that women go through, which is why didn't I like advocate for myself? Why didn't I say no? Why wasn't I more clear? Why wasn't I, how did I get lost in the moment? Like I was at that point, I had been a sex educator for like decades, for over a decade, because I started doing that work, sex education work, when I was like 13. So I was like, I knew better, like, how am I getting swept up? Like, what is going on? But it was like people pleasing, perfectionism, disembodiment, all of that. And I think it's so much easier, we can read something on a paper, we can ingest it in a lecture, but when you are in a moment and you are living it, and that is why unfortunately, really mainly primarily only women will be able to relate to this when people are like, well, why don't you just say no? It's like, when you are in that moment, and there is so much going on in your brain and not going on in your body because you're disassociating and you're like removing yourself, it is close to impossible to be able to create a strong boundary because a lot of the times it is easier to just go with what is happening, whether it's for safety or whatever it be. So you writing about that, I think was just so powerful because it also is like, there is kind of not an immediate answer in those moments. It's just giving yourself grace of like, you felt guilt after that of you took primarily the responsibility of getting pregnant. And then what was the process of undoing that guilt for yourself? I think the thing you talked about around like learning how to not disassociate with a lot of therapy, a lot of work, a lot of introspection, but it's been a journey for me of staying in my body, like the healing around the eating disorder, all the work around like, how do I stay in my body so that I can make choices that are right for me? I guess the choice to have an abortion, I was so clear. I was like, I am in this moment, I am in, I'm now in my body, I'm in the truth of what's happening in my body, and I need to make a very clear decision. And I knew it was right for me. And I was like, I want to be in this state more often, if not all the time, right? I want to be with myself. Wow. And I remember when you wrote, I know legally clinics have to ask the questions to make sure that this is the right choice for you. And in your book, you describe this as having to essentially defend your choice for an abortion. How did it feel in that moment to have to justify yourself, to get yourself to that point, feeling confident in yourself, knowing this is what the right this is for your body, and then someone looking at you being like, let's walk through, are you sure? How did that feel? I think it contributed to the guilt because I wasn't, I was at a place, I was at an age where I could have chosen to have a child. I was in a relationship where I could have chosen to have a child. I was like, I, there were lots of factors that it wasn't a life or death situation for me. It wasn't the case of rape or incest. It was like, it's so I could have made that choice. I just knew it wasn't the right choice for me. And that feels really specific. And it leaves room for a lot of people to disagree. It can seem selfish. It can seem a lot of things. But it, you know, you get this one life. And I knew that this was the right choice for me. What do you wish more people understood about the realities women face when it comes to abortion? I think that it's not an easy decision, that by the time a woman makes the decision to have an abortion, it's never an easy decision. And so I think we need to give people grace around making the choices that are right for us in our life. But I think also one of the things I love, loved about your episode was when you challenged that guy around like, well, shouldn't young men just get vasectomies? And then like, when they're ready to have babies, we can reconnect them. And I think that all of the onus gets put on women is it's just so unfair. It's so unfair. And the minute that I tried to engage him in the conversation and include them, they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. It's like, but what laws you're legislating my reproductive organ. So why can't I legislate yours? Why are there no laws around men's bodies? And it's like, well, hold on. You're like, and so I agree. It's like, I think where we're at right now is it feels impossible to finding a way to bring people to the table to have a conversation. Because we're sitting here right now and there are women that don't have the same right that you did in the moment. My daughters don't have as many rights as I did at their age, neither one of them. That's a travesty to me. And you know, if this was really about saving lives, then we would do a better job taking care of the children that exist in the world right now. Like if everybody who believes that abortion should be illegal was also like really ready to come forward with supporting education and healthcare and resources for families to be able to thrive, we could maybe understand this conversation a little bit more, but it doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel like it's about caring for a child. It feels like it's about control of a woman and maybe control of children too. So I just, I think actually the real answer to your question is like, we don't have to be silent about this. I know that we are in a moment where we have fewer rights than we ever have had when it comes to our bodies, but we still have a lot of rights. We have the right to free speech. We have the right to be able to protest. We have the right to vote. And we have to like take advantage of the rights that we have to try to grow some of the ones that we've lost. That hopefully is what people can understand. We're saying it's like, if it is not the right choice for you, then you absolutely, that's fine. That's the beauty of living in a free country, in a democracy. You get to like make choices for yourself. So let's make sure that is applicable to every single woman on this earth. That's right. Thank you for talking with me about that because I just think there's so many women that listen to this and it is important topic, especially right now. I want to pivot to your family. Yeah, because you're the best part of me. Yes. And something that you referenced earlier and you mentioned in your memoir, a few years ago, you revealed that your dad was not your biological father because your parents used a sperm donor. Just take me to that moment of like, how did they break the news to you and what was that conversation like, Kerry? So when scandal ended, I bumped into Henry Lewis Gates, who is an incredible professor who has this television show called Finding Your Roots. And we've been friends for a long time and I'd always wanted to do Finding Your Roots, but I never had time because of scandal. And he was like, I read that it's going to be scandals last season. I said, yeah, he said, will you come do the show? And I was like, absolutely, like this is my moment. My mom is so interested in genealogical stuff with our family and I know my dad will be into this. This will be so great. So I call up my parents and I'm like, I bumped into Skip Gates, I'm going to do Finding Your Roots. We're going to learn everything we can possibly learn about our family. And my dad started having panic attacks. And I couldn't figure it out. My mom was like, that's great. I was like, okay, well, she's always a little, you know, like she's my mom is not the most emotionally expressive person. That's how I'll say it. So I was like, all right, well, I think it's great. And maybe she she thinks it's great too. And we'll get there. My dad was not happy. And I was like, what are you afraid of? Like, you're worried that you're going to find out like your great grandmother was like, I don't know, like how to brothel or like what's what what could possibly be the issue? So I offered my parents because Skip Gates is closer to their age generationally. And so I was like, do you want to talk to Professor Gates? And like, maybe he can help calm you guys down. And so basically, this Harvard professor knew about my genetics before I did because my parents were like, what if hypothetically speaking, she happened to be born from a sperm bone, would that come up? And he was like, definitely it would. And you need to tell her. And they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no. And he was like, he said, thank God, he said to them, that in all of his years of doing the show, when this has this kind of thing has come up, that people's greatest regret is not being able to know when everybody's still alive, because you don't get to deal with it and move through it and like get closer in the truth of it. So, so I got this text from my mom that my parents wanted to talk, which never happens. I was like, I mean, it has happened once or twice, like when my mother first told me she had cancer, or when my dad was in trouble with the law, like I was like, this is not good news. And I went to the apartment, the apartment in LA and, and they like fumbled through sharing this news with me. And I remember it like, it was like, I don't know, it was like that scene in Alice in Wonderland where she's like free falling through the characters and the props. I just was like, what is happening? Nothing felt solid. I felt kind of dizzy. I was like, is this like a weird prank? Like I just, I could, I was so confused. And also, at the exact same time, I felt like, yes, this is it. Like this is the, this is the puzzle piece that I've been trying to solve for my entire life. This is why I've, this is part of why I've had such a hard time being in my body and staying in my body. It's because my body has been a lie to me from the moment I came to this planet. Like from the moment I was born, the two people who love me the most have lied to me about who I am and about where this body comes from. And so I had an opportunity to make peace with my body for the first time and with my, the truth of who I am and, and like how I'm here. I mean, it was really cool. I was going to say like incredible and so disorienting. Like 40 years of your life, you believe your father is your biological blood father. They tell you this, like how did you even begin as a human being to process something like that? My first concern, my first concern was my dad because I remember looking at him and he was devastated. Like I could tell he felt like he lost me. And so it took me a while to actually even figure out how I was feeling about it. Cause I realized very quickly that my parents needed my help in this moment, that they were courageously stepping into the scariest thing they had ever done and that they thought that they were going to explode our family, that they were going to destroy us as a family. Cause I'm an only child. So it's just the three of us. And so I really, my first concern was like to sit next to my dad and to look at him and to say, I just want you to know that I love you and that every day that I've said, I love you up until now for you, it's been on the condition of a lie because you think I love you because I think you're my dad. I said today you get to know that I love you unconditionally because I know you're not my biological father and I still love you. That's it. Oh my God. It was really powerful. I can't imagine the relief, but also did you ever get to talk about like, did they do this out of, did they say because they thought they were protecting you? Yes. Yeah. I mean, at the time, nobody knew 40 plus years ago that there was going to be a 23 and me or an ancestry.com. That was like science fiction. That was like the Jetsons. Like what? So it was really, I think they were really protecting me. They were trying to make me not feel othered, not feel different, not feel weird. It wasn't like today, you and I have friends who like go to a sperm bank and look through a binder and like choose what degree the person has and like what color eyes the donor will have. But this was like the Wild West. My mother like got a phone call like, we have it. It's warm. Come to the office. Like she had no idea who the person was. My parents just said like, please let him be healthy and let him be black because they didn't want anybody to know. So they wanted to keep it a secret. So it just, I think it was so, again, shrouded in secrecy and shame and also my dad's shame about not being able to provide. Like it was about protecting him and protecting me and so much emotions all around. Although not the same, this makes me think about your new show Imperfect Women, which touches on secrets and how they impact relationships, right? Yeah. How did you use what you went through in your life to inform this character that you just went on to play? It's such a good question. You're so good at this. I'm having a time like this. No surprises to no one. So I think one of the biggest things that shocked me when I went on book tour was that every single person at every book signing, when they were taking a picture with me, was like, my family has a secret. Like they were, they were sharing their family. And I started realizing like, oh, every family has a secret. We all have them. All of us. It's part of what defines us, right? It's like the moment that we reveal our truth and how our family deals with it is a big part of what defines who we are and who our family is. So I have really gravitated toward, I mean, actually, even before knowing, like Reese Witherspoon sent me Little Fires Everywhere before my parents told me. And in Little Fires Everywhere, I play a woman who volunteers to be a surrogate and then does not tell my daughter who her father is. Like it is so absurd that this was the project that Reese sent to me. When I sent my mom, the book, my mother was like, oh, wait, like in hindsight, I like, I watched my life now. Like the way you watch one of those movies where you're like, oh, there were all these Easter eggs, but I didn't know they were Easter eggs in the moment. I completely, I watched that show. I love that show. I completely forgot. Is that crazy? It's so wild. Your mom like freaking out when you sent her this script. She's like, so gorgeous. We have fun. Totally. So, but also it was such a blessing because by the time we were filming that show, I did know. And then I actually got to step into my parents' shoes because I had this beautiful young actress, Lexie Underwood, saying like, tell me who my father is and me through tears saying, I can't. I can't. Like I had to really, really step into in a very compassionate way, understanding my parents' fear and why they couldn't tell me. So that was such a gift. You found this out while you were filming in the process of developing that show. I had already signed on to it and then they told me that I went to go make it, which is insane. Oh, you're like, this role is back for me. Yeah. I'm in. Isn't that crazy? Oh, wow. So then when we were doing, in developing Imperfect Women, I realized like this is something that I, a theme that I returned to again and again, the kind of presentation of self versus who we really are because for so much of my life, even when I didn't know that I was born from a donor, I knew that something was up. Like I knew that there was something, some weird missing puzzle piece in my family. I didn't know what I didn't know, but I knew we weren't real with each other. I knew that we were not 100% transparent. I talk about in the book is like a veil. There was like a veil between my parents and I. You want to keep a secret. You tell my mother and father because my mother has four sisters, none of them knew. Her mother, like no one knew, not a single. So also it was so freeing for her to be like, I don't have to keep this secret anymore. Yeah. Oh, wow. So for Imperfect Women, I really gravitated toward this project because I was like, this is a series about women who keep secrets from each other, even though they love each other so, so much. It's three friends who adore each other and they want to be in their truth. But because we have this pressure in society and culture to be perfect, they keep things from each other, really important things from each other. And it's like, why I love when shows like this explore that concept is because the word secret, understandably, has such a negative connotation, but it is so refreshing even when we're talking about what happened with you, with your parents. It's like, when you explore the why, there's so much underneath a lot of secrets that a lot of it comes from the person genuinely thinking they're protecting the people that they love. And really, it's like, most of the time the truth is always the answer, but, but we can empathize with the people that keep the secrets when you actually get underneath the why of why they genuinely thought it was a lie. It's terrifying. It's terrifying. I think in the end, we're all afraid that we're not going to be loved, that we're not going to be accepted, that we're not going to belong to the people that we love the most if we let them know who we really are. And so I think watching people grapple with that and and be willing to unpack that is so captivating because it's terrifying for all of us. It is. And it's so universal, just like the fear of rejection. Yeah. You referenced earlier how you have struggled with an eating disorder. And this doesn't always look the way we expect it to, right? How did you recognize and come to terms with the fact that you were struggling? So I want to say, I want to share with you because I'm super proud of it. I invested in a company called Equip, which is this incredible online community for healing recovery from eating disorders. And why I believe so strongly in this work is because I've, you know, as a person of privilege, I've been able to have group therapy and individual therapy and nutritionists and physical trainers and doctors. Like I've had access to incredible health care throughout my life. And this platform Equip is like the democratization of that kind of health care. They create a team of health care support around every single person so that the healing because eating disorders are such a multi dimensional illness. It's it's psychological, it's biological, it's cultural. And so you need your team of support to reflect that kind of care. And so they do this online with people all over the country. Incredible. And they take insurance and it's unbelievable. So yeah, so I'm very proud of that work. And for me, I think especially it's important because a lot of people of color go undiagnosed. People who live on the margins go undiagnosed. So people who are in the queer community, women of color, men of color, it just, we, I think in general, we tend to downplay how dangerous eating disorders are even though they are fatal. So many people die every year from eating disorders. So I think for me, I recognized it because I knew that I was in a real mental health crisis. Like the thing that actually got me to get help with my eating disorder wasn't the food itself, wasn't the behavior with the food. It was the suicidal ideation. I was like, I'm using food as an exercise as a tool to not be here. Like I'm trying to escape life and I need to figure out how to be in life because I don't, I was terrified that I was being so mean to myself, right? That I was in so much pain that it was like inflicting more pain was the only way out of my pain. And it's so hard to recognize when you're in it. Like I think it, and it's also sometimes, and I know I've spoken to women before on my show where they say like, it's sometimes easier to stay in it because dismantling all, like you said, this is not just like, and then just you stop doing it. It's like, you have to go through the psychological you needed to get into the body. And like, I like to say, like, you know, and this is not to diminish the, the power of any addiction, but there are some addictions where the work is like, you have to put it down and you stop. And one of the things that's tricky about an eating disorder is I have to take this tiger out of a cage and pet it like a house cat three times a day, right? Like that's, that is one of the interesting dynamics is that like you, you can't just say, I'm not going to eat. That's actually another extension of eating disorder. So you, you have to be in relationship with this thing that is so challenging to engage with. I remember reading that quote of yours and it was such a, it was so helpful to read that because I do, I agree, it puts it into perspective that this, this feeling and this, whether it's disorder or addiction or whatever you want to call it, like, it's ever present, you can't survive without eating. And so I agree, it's like, every addiction is horrible. But this one specifically, there is such a complexity to it. It's similar to like the money addictions or the sex addictions where like you don't, you can't just give it up. Yes. But you got to figure out how to do it in a way that doesn't ruin your life and the lives of the people you love the most. Yes. What was your healing process like? I mean, it was the first, it was the first thing that got me on my knees ever. Like the first time I ever prayed was to get out of this insanity where I was like the only thing, like my entire life revolved around what I was eating or not eating, how many calories I was burning. I was, I was, when I was in college, it was the worst, the worst, the worst. That's when I first went into treatment. And it was the first time I got on my knees to be like, I need help. And so it was for me, it was group therapy, it was individual therapy. It was the first time I ever went to see a shrink and have therapy and talk about my feelings. It was working with a nutritionist. It was all of that stuff. Yeah. I think something that can be really hard is like when you are genuinely so concerned about someone, it can come off like you are criticizing or you're commenting on their body when you're trying to help them. Do you have any advice for people listening on like how to navigate that type of conversation if you are a friend or a family member concerned? I had the opposite where I went to a couple of people to say, I think I need help with this. And people were like, it's fine. Everybody eats when they're upset. Like they, they kind of refused to see how serious it was because they didn't want that to be true for me. And I think sometimes people do that because they don't, they don't want to look at their own behavior with food. So they're like, it's fine, whatever. We don't have to talk about it. So it's also just listening to the people around you. I think it's listening to, I think if you're, if you're the one struggling, it's trusting your gut. If you know you need help, don't let anybody tell you that it's not a big deal. And as a parent, if you know your child needs help also, because I, I mean, even a lot of pediatricians struggle to diagnose eating disorders. There's a lot of education that needs to happen in the medical community where still people in medical schools are being taught that eating disorders are things that happen to like white, wealthy people in suburbs. There's all this weird misinformation around who has them and even what are eating disorders, what are the different eating disorders. So I think like if you're a parent trusting your gut and getting help for your young ones and if you're struggling, don't minimize it. Like it might be an eating disorder, it might be disordered eating, it might, it could be a whole spectrum of things, but if you need help, ask for help. Like you don't need to suffer alone. You don't need to live in pain. You don't need to, to engage in activity that takes you out of life. As someone who is in the public eye, sadly, that does come with scrutiny over your looks and your body. Yeah. How does that constant commentary affect you? I keep thinking, like a lot of times when you're asking me questions, I'm like, I love the title of our show, Imperfect Women, because I'm like so much of the journey is about being like, I'm not perfect. We're all imperfect. Like imperfect is a synonym for human. It's just like that, that is, that's who I am. So I think I'm in a place in my life now where I understand it's, I mean, people are going to have their opinions. I'm just doing the best I can. And I have pretty high standards. So like I'm reaching for gold in my version of me. And if it's not good enough for you, then that's your issue to deal with. Like, yeah. It's a great point. And I also think I had somewhat of a conversation similar to this with Michelle Obama, where we talked about how the internet can queen Michelle Obama. Yes. Queen still said to pause. No, no, no, no. I'm still not over it. Yes. Okay. The internet is so ruthless when it comes to body shaming and criticizing women. But the sad reality is a majority of the time it is coming from other women. What do you think is behind that? We're not taught to love ourselves. It's not like a core value and it needs to be. And so I think a lot of times we reach for criticism of ourselves and others, because we just don't know how to choose to be more loving. We don't know how. It's so true. And I think like, when women go at other women, there's this projection that's happening, whether it's someone that's triggering something in you, whether you're seeing something that you wish you could be doing or you resonate with. It scares you because it shakes your idea of what's acceptable. Yes. And I think like what I want to work on, and I'm, I think when Michelle talked about that, I was hoping like also my audience can work on is like really pausing in those moments where you do have a negative feeling towards another woman and really trying to dissect like, why is this happening? Because we're only going to continue to perpetuate it. And the only way we're going to dismantle the patriarchy of all the men are just laughing. Like they're just like, oh my God, if anything, now they're all so busy tearing each other down. We used to have to do it. Now you're all doing it yourselves. It's like it's worked so, they've worked so long to put us in this position where we are below them and we have to believe we are equal. And so we have to start actually rising directly next to them and looking at ourselves being like, the only way we're going to get there is if we actually shut our mouths the next time that we want to say something negative about another woman. I'm not saying you can't disagree with women. You can't be, you know, say, I think the opposite of you or I actually don't agree with what you are doing. Sure. But maybe the next time you think to do that, you stay silent at least publicly on that or DM the person and have a private conversation. I don't know. I just think there's different solves to actually getting underneath how do we stop the war against women when half of the time it feels like we're in it within ourselves. Yeah. I mean, the thing is what you're talking about requires a lot of maturity because there's a certain level of emotional regulation that when I get ramped up about something that I don't just jump to react, but that I pause. Like I feel like such a big part of being an adult, a mature adult is in the pause. Like am I willing to pause, take a beat, look at my side of the street before I'm reactive. And it's really, I feel like it is at the cornerstone of being able to grapple with a lot of really challenging relationships. I mean, it's really important in parenting. Pausing is really important in parenting. I can't imagine because you do you and you get triggered a lot. You get activated a lot by stuff. It's a great point. And I can't help but think like you've been in so many rooms with men and women in this very heightened industry. Do you have any moments where you realized you were kind of being set up to compete with other women and how has that evolved for you as you have kind of come into more power compared to maybe the beginning days where you didn't have as much of a say? I will never forget this. I think it was Chris Rock who said this to me that the most racist thing that's ever been done to you, you'll never know about because you weren't even in the room. I think it's true in sexism too. Like the most sexist decision that gets made about us, we won't even have access to the moment it got made because it will be in a room that we did not have access to. So that's wild. It's a wild idea to wrap your head around. But I actually think of a moment that's a little bit of the opposite. Like I referred to this earlier when the script for a scandal was circulating, everybody was obsessed because we hadn't seen an opportunity for a black actress like this in our lifetimes. And everybody wanted to read for it. Everybody thought they were born to play this character. And God bless Shonda. She was like, if you want to read, I will let you read. Like she saw everybody because she understood the hope that lived in these, the pages of this script for so many people. And I remember speaking at a luncheon for Essence magazine after I had gotten the part. So it was a room full of black women. And I don't know how to explain this, but I'm going to try. I felt nothing but love in that room. And I knew that there could have been like, I could have been standing in front of that room in front of all those women, many of whom I knew were like down to the way. It's like down to me and four other women, all of them were in there. There was no sense of competition. There was no sense of like, it should have been me. There was no sense of how dare she, it was all like, you have to go win this thing. Like we believe in you, you got it. Now you have to go win for us. And that magic, I was like, this is, I know that this is not the norm. I know that this is rarefied air that we're all breathing right now. And I felt so grateful and responsible for them, for all of us, for like, for like standing up for representing all of us. And by the way, there may have been some of them who went home and were like, that bitch, like, I know I could have done that part with my eyes closed. I don't know why she's doing it. Like, I'm not saying those feelings weren't there, but I'm saying like in that room, the energy that they were consciously sending my way was all love. I mean, that though is, I agree, it's like we can, yes, we can always focus on the negative, but that is such a testament to the statement and the reality that has kind of been built out, is that there can only be one woman at the top. I know. And although in that moment, it was proving true. As you're saying, I am a black woman in this position that for 40 years, it hasn't happened. And so it is on my shoulders right now. But how incredible that you took that and you had all these women standing there being like, we are rooting for you. You have to win. You have to win. And I always say, like, I didn't change history. Like, I was gonna come in and know my lines and make strong choices. I was gonna do my job as an actor, no matter what. The person who made history, that was our audiences, like audiences all over the world. They tuned in and they made a point. They were able to prove to the network that it wasn't a risk, that it was actually a strong ROI, that we were gonna bring the value. So when I think about that moment, I also think all of those women, they were the women who were like retweeting and reposting and joining in on Thursday nights. Because when we were grassroots, you know, mid-season replacement show, it was like black women who were first like, you got to watch this show, you got to watch My Girl Carrie. Like, that's that energy. So we did all win together. There was only room for one, but it took all of us to break that door open. And then there was room for more of us to go through it. Right. Back to what you said, all of those shows that followed. Yes. At first, there was only and that is, I think, what like ending that conversation. It's like, that is such that is what we're talking about. It's actually, yes, if it can only be one woman in the room, we have to believe that she's going to work her ass off and it will allow for the rest of us to also rise with her. And we have to believe that we just have to. And it's why we can't tear each other apart for our imperfections. Because when one of us comes forward to say, I had an abortion, it was the hardest thing I've ever done. It was a really difficult time in my life. But I made that choice. When we allow her to do that, we allow other people to say, I have a secret too. I have a secret too. I adopted my children didn't tell anybody. I used a sperm donor. My husband's infertile. I'm infertile. Like whatever it is, like we, when we make room for each other's truth also, like each other's success, each other's pain, like we have to support each other as women in our human, imperfect, messy journey, so that we can continue to be badass and human and imperfect and messy and awesome. It's so true. Cause then the stigma is gone. Yeah, there's only a stigma because we're making it. That's right. And then the more we keep talking about it, that stigma will be gone. And then people won't have to keep these secrets because we can stay in community and just be who we are. Girl, I mean, we needed this today. I did. Okay. Relationships. Okay. You have been married for about 13 years. I know. What has your partnership taught you about yourself? Oh, wow. That's such a good question. What has my partner taught me about myself that I'm really, really lucky? I'm like, I must have done something really good in a past life because I mean, what an extraordinary human. So I'm really lucky. Oh God, he teaches me stuff all the time. One of the things that I really love about our relationship is that very early on, we started couples therapy. Like we started couples therapy before anything was wrong. Like we just started couples therapy kind of preventatively. He was newer to therapy. I feel like I've been in therapy my whole life, but we were like, we should just like start having these conversations so that if something does get hard, we already have a culture of knowing how to talk about stuff. I'm obsessed with couples therapy. It's amazing. It's my favorite. It's like part logistics meeting, part like party, part date in the afternoon. I so look forward to it. We start every session with something that the other person did well, like something that we appreciate about the other person. And like every time I am like, this is the best part of my week. Because so often what's really interesting is so often the thing he shares with me that he appreciated or the thing I share with him, it's not something I would have guessed. It's like something that to me was small, but to him it meant a lot. And that's so useful because now I'm like, oh, I can do that again. Like I can do that all the time. That was nothing to me. Right? Like so you really learn how to love each other better in that by starting with something good. I think he's taught me just how to be a better person, a better human. And he's given me the greatest gift, which is his partnership and also to be a mom. It's beautiful. Something I was thinking about is you have been able to maintain a career. And obviously you talked about motherhood, right? To anyone listening that's like girl. You in particular? Yeah, I'm like girl. How do you think about starting a family? Yeah, to anyone that's maybe thinking about that one day, how girl, give me the advice. What do I do? How do you do it? I have a girlfriend who I have said, you should just come over because it's a little bit like you just need to see it. You just need to see it in the wild. Like you just need to be like, oh, like it's chaotic. It's crazy. And it's awesome. Like you just got it. Like you just have to come over. Perfect. I'll just watch it. I'll just watch a TV show. It's like seeing a lion in the wild. You're like, it's real. Okay. Perfect. All right. We can do it. I would say you're never going to feel ready or by the time you feel ready, then you're like on a clock. I don't know. Just follow your gut. Yeah. Follow your gut. I know. I feel like that's a lot of what I've read online or like seeing people talk about is like there's only so much advice you can give to people. And then it's like you got to just throw yourself into it because everyone's made it work somehow. Yeah, that's right. Like it's going to be hard. That's right. But there's also a journey you need to go on for yourself. Yeah. That there's only so much you can read in books or listen to on podcasts and it's like you kind of got to live it. I would say two things. Okay. One is just think about it. Like don't not think about it. Right? Like the biggest thing I say to my girlfriends is like, don't just make your whole life about work. Be open to thinking about where these other pieces can fit in because Michelle Obama says this all the time. You can't have everything all the time, but you want to make sure that by the time the things you want, by the time you're ready for the things you want, you're still able to do them. Right? So like really be, you're so strategic about your life. Like don't be afraid to be a little bit strategic about this. Yeah. It's great. And plan. Right? Like take it seriously. This is part of the plan. This is part of the plan. So take it seriously. I feel like Olivia came out a little bit about there. It's my name on that door, but it's your name on that door. So act like it. This is the plan, Alex. I'm like, yes, keep going. I think also a lot of my audience is in a phase right now where they're maybe getting engaged or they're thinking about marriage and the way that you just said, you know, you feel so lucky with your partnership. Like is there any conversations that you do think are essential before getting married that maybe my audience could benefit from having? Well, I do think not being afraid to allow independence in your marriage is important. Right? Like I have, I remember having a conversation with one girlfriend who was just like, they have to love Indian food. And I was like, well, why? Like I will eat Indian food with you. First of all, you can go to an Indian restaurant by yourself. And also I will always eat Indian. Like, well, they, you don't have to like all the same things all the time. If anything, it's good if you don't. It's good if you have separate interests. It's, it's important. It's powerful. It's meaningful. And then you get to come back to each other and have something to talk about. Like, so I think not being afraid of independence is really important. And I think the family thing is important. Like, do you want to have kids? Do you not want to have kids that I think that's really important. Yeah, I actually really love the independence topic too, because I think to anyone listening, it's also like so much that goes into the beginning days of a relationship is this conscious coupling of like, do we work? Do we have the same this and this into our lives merge? And so much is seeing if you are compatible, which yes is important. But then you're merging so heavily and making sure everything aligns that then it's like, well, wait, what if one thing is off? And it's like, no, no, no, watching my parents now who have had, have been married for 40 plus years. And the things that they both don't align on in terms of what they like or whatever, it's actually so beautiful because as they've grown, they've filled in that area with friends or their child goes and does it with them or they do it alone. And that allows for the independence to remain, which is so integral to a relationship because you came in as individuals, you don't want to then just somehow merge like you fell in love because of who you came in as an individual. That's right. I also think though, like, there's a lot my, I did not have a very traditional wedding, but I do think about those vows. I think they're so powerful because I think you have to really ask yourself in sickness, like in poverty, when things are not good, like, who is this somebody who I want to be down with and who is going to be down for me on the good days and the bad days, like really asking yourself in the more challenging times, is this my ride or die? Like, is this my, do I want to be this person's co-pilot and do I want them to be mine? Because that's also the thing, right? Is that like part of that independence conversation is like, I am the lead in the story of my life. He is the lead in the story of his life, but also I like being the supporting character in his life and he likes being the supporting character in my life that I can, I can have both. I can be in two movies. I can be in like the Carrie Washington movie where it's all about me, but I also really love being number two on the call sheet in his movie, you know? I love that. I know I'm thinking about like all the girlies listening, like if you are just liking him right now because it fits into your social calendar, maybe, maybe just think a little bit more before he gets down on one knee or whatever you're going to do it because there is so much more to life than just the fun times. You're right in sickness and in health when money is lost. Like those are the, those are the important things, Carrie. Okay, back to your new show as we, I was going to say wind down and I was like, every time my therapist says I get triggered, I'm like, I get it. I'm like, we're at the 50 minute mark, please. Like I could be sobbing and she's like, well, as we wind down, I'm like, no, don't leave me now. I wind up saying it first because I don't want the therapist to say, I'm like, I know we don't have much time. I always say that at the end of sessions. I'm like, I know we don't have a lot of time. No, that's actually so real. You start to look and you're like, we have one minute. I'm going to say it first and it's like, oh my god. You are not breaking up with me. I'm breaking up with you. That is so real. Okay. I know you said obviously you can't give spoilers, but like what do you think fans are going to love the most about this show? This show, I swear to you, I know a little something about like water cooler television. This show is your next, like it cannot miss. Everybody's talking about it. Psychological thriller, sexy, juicy, girly, fantastic show. It is like, it's so captivating. These characters are unbelievable. The acting is crazy. Like Elizabeth Moss is a beast of an actress. She's just a beast. Kate Mara is a beast. We are all three women who have held our own shows. So to like team up together to support each other and the telling of this story is incredible. I imagine this is what it feels like to be on a dream team at the Olympics where you're like, I can't drop the ball. Like I can't be the one who doesn't sink the ball. Like you have to, I have to win because this team has to win. So you every day also one of the things that's really cool about the show that I love is that it's actually told from different point of views. Like it seems like it's my show in the beginning and then it becomes Nancy's show and then it becomes Mary's show. And so like you're actually getting the story from different perspectives, which is like unraveling of truth as you keep going through. So you go deeper and deeper into these secrets and into these discoveries. It's just so good. We would have arguments on set constantly about the things these characters were doing. Like we disagreed among cast and crew about whether things were right or wrong, whether people could do what they were doing. Like does that make you a good friend or a bad friend? Oh, I love shows like that that actually force you to really self reflect and be like, wait, do I think, would I agree with that? Would I do that? Yeah. My husband was like enough. I'd go home and I'd be like, okay, if I died, he's like, I don't want to talk about this anymore. I just have a question. If I died, he's like enough. Stop it. No, I'm so excited to see it for everyone watching. Like I think we love you. We love watching you on our TVs. You've just obviously been with us for so long and any project you have, I think we all rally behind you because you're just, you're our comfort watch, you're our girl. So like I am so excited for you. I'm so excited for this new show. And I am, I can't wait to call my mom after this because she doesn't even know. She doesn't even know I'm interviewing you today. Is she, she lives here? Oh, so you guys should both come over. This is what you should do. You should both come over and I will convince you to have children. I'm like, I'm gonna take your word for that. I've never followed up. No, that means so much and you're so sweet. And my mom would actually pass out. But thank you for your time. I know you're so busy. I know you have so much going on and like to get two hours of your time to sit with you to pick your brain to go back and relive memory lane with the scandal days all the way to the current projects. Like you are such a special woman and I'm honored to have met you and thank you for giving me your time. Thank you so much and thank you for forcing me to call my friend Tony. Tony, literally hearing Olivia and Fitz one more time. I was like, oh, I need to go rewatch it now. Thank you. Thank you.