Hey, this is Outside In, a show where curiosity and the natural world collide. I'm Nate Hedgie here with Marina Hanky. Hey, Marina. Hello, Nate. Today, I want to bring you back to a year far, far away 2009, when a very popular movie hit the big screen. I'd like to talk to you about a fresh start on a new world. You'd be making a difference. We're talking blue people, a moon planet far, far away, and a precious resource not so subtly called Unobtainium. Real softball question, Nate Hedgie. What movie is that? Oh, this is Avatar. I have very, very distinct memories of watching this with my entire extended family. I remember being really crazy, though, the special effects. I was blown away. Grandma, not blown away. Me, very blown away. So for folks who have not watched Avatar, we've got this former marine Jake Sole, he is sent to this far away moon planet to help his fellow humans extract this very precious resource. The problem is that they got to get it from the Navi, an indigenous tribe. Of course, surprise, surprise, Jake falls in love with one of the Navi and decides to lead the rebellion. And to your point, I mean, it is a total technological feat when this movie comes out. There were camera systems that were specially designed to make Avatar happen. Wow. 100% paid off. Avatar is the highest grossing film of all time. Avengers, it comes in at number two. But Nate, do you want to guess what the third most highest grossing movie is of all time? Oh, it's Titanic. It's Avatar 2. Oh, it's Avatar 2. Of course it is. So do you think that Avatar 3, do you think it's going to take that mantle? I am not convinced. We'll have our outside in movie people weighing on that one. But it is true, a third Avatar movie is coming out this weekend. It's going to be released on December 19th. And you know, even though the whole franchise clearly marked as a sci-fi movie, I mean, it happens on a planet of blue people, it is pretty clearly an allegory to life on planet earth. We've got greedy government trying to get a resource, eradicating this indigenous population, complex ecosystem. And hearing about Avatar in the ether again, it really did just get me thinking, how are movies shaping our ideas about nature? Yeah, no, they absolutely, they form the fabric of your worldview. I mean, all kind of pop culture does, I think. You know, it's funny, right? Movies are something that we literally often see in pitch black, dark indoor rooms. I think that when we're sitting down and we're watching them so often, it is movies that are shot in the outdoors. Absolutely. That's what makes them so exciting, you know? When you see Oppenheimer and Killian Murphy is walking through this vast desert of New Mexico and it's just beautiful shots. You're like, I want to go to New Mexico that looks gorgeous. Maybe some people are like, I don't know if I want to be where Oppenheimer is about to do all this stuff. No, I want to go, you know, before the bomb drops. When it comes to movies, nature is often the backdrop, the setting against which the actual plot happens. But sometimes the role of nature is much more obvious. It leaps into the foreground and acts almost like a main character. So today on Outside In, how do movies from blockbusters to documentaries to Disney films shape our conception of the natural world? And action. Oh, I mean cut, I mean cut. Yeah, yeah, cut, yeah. We were going to get rolling after the break. Hello, Bambi. Hold on, Jack, are you suggesting these weather anomalies are going to continue? Fire! Danzin. Jenzin. Tom. Alice. Looks like everyone's on board. Oh, and Jess. Tell Jess to meet us at the train station an hour earlier, though. She's always late. Make it happen with Southeastern Group Save. Save one-third on the price of train tickets when you travel at off-peak times in groups of three to nine adults. Buy direct from our Apple website with no booking fees. Terms and conditions apply. Find out more at southeastonrailway.co.uk forward slash group save. Southeastern. Right now, a guide dog puppy is taking her very first steps. One day, she'll help someone with sight loss live a full and independent life. And the crossing best? Good girl. When you sponsor a puppy with guide dogs, you're there for it all. Her wobbly walks, her first harness, the life-changing partnership. It's more than a donation. It's the start of a life-changing story. Search, sponsor a guide dog puppy, and be part of a story you'll be proud to share. Guide dogs. All right, we are back. I'm Marina Hinke. I'm Nate Hedgie. And today, we're talking about how nature shows up on the big screen. Nate, I am excited to talk to you about this because if listeners don't know, you are a huge movie buff. Were you born a movie person? I used to be like many little kids, the kind of child that would watch the same movie over and over and over and over again. Trassic Park, obviously. My sister used to watch a movie called Tomasina, about a cat. And I can still remember the song. Tomasina. Don't ever run away. Tomasino. Don't ever run away. Well, I have not seen a whole bunch of movies. And to prepare myself for this episode, I went on somewhat of a, I dare say, a cinematic journey. Talk to a lot of people who are way more into movies than me. The first person that I want to introduce you to is someone named Alyssa Vitale. I am a film critic in Maine. And I am also a college biology instructor. So I will say Alyssa immediately confirmed every single stereotype I have about film critics. She's got a little notebook that she writes in. I've kind of perfected the art of not looking at all. She's got a routine at her local movie theater. I rarely get snacks, actually. And a pretty unrelenting schedule. I'm watching at least one movie every day, just at home. Wow. I came to Alyssa with a very specific question. What are the classic nature tropes that she sees in movies? And she had some immediate thoughts. There's a lot that are just saying that nature is this beautiful thing. So for me, this immediately brings to mind a movie like A River Runs Through It on the documentary side, like Planet Earth. Yeah. I think of the show Yellowstone. And we've done a whole episode on that on Outside In, in fact. Nate has. And then, of course, there's the flip side of that trope. Nature as an antagonist, especially in like eco-horror movies. Alyssa's example here is an oldie, but a goodie. It's alive. A gigantic beast, dotting the earth. Is that Godzilla? That is Godzilla. That's another one of those like VHSs I can remember watching over and over and over. I had like a box set of really old Japanese Godzilla movies that we would just like watch. And it really is totally a movie about nature taking revenge on humanity. There's a ton of other classics within this trope. I can think of Jaws, Anaconda, Hitchcock's, The Birds. But, you know, beyond these in-your-face classics, I wanted to zoom in on just this one niche category within Nature as antagonist movies. I do feel you just can't ignore if we're going to talk movies. And that is the Man v. Wilde movie. Well, that's... I'm sorry! This is, I think, a very common idea. We have this lone character who is up against Nature. Maybe they're on a desert island alone. Maybe they're trying to get through a really long winter. Do you tend to like those movies? Yeah. Sorry, but who doesn't? Like, come on. Castaway? The Revenant? Oh, okay. I'm glad you brought The Revenant. I watched that movie for this episode. For people who haven't seen it, we got Leonardo DiCaprio. He's playing this fur trapper named Hugh Glass, who is horribly mauled by a bear and left for presumably dead by his fur trapping team. What happened? We did what we had to do. I gotta say, my clip options very limited. Just play the one where he's going, That's all it is. It's just him yelling. Well, it is. The movie is half Leonardo DiCaprio grunting through the rugged wilderness. Yeah, exactly. Which, I mean, I think, Nate, how would you describe the experience of watching this movie? So, like, I remember seeing The Revenant in a theater when I was living in Montana on a cold winter night and I was like, this movie is just stunning. I'm getting all the chills, the music swells, the views are beautiful. I just know that I was swept up in the vibes. Well, one fun fact that I will offer, the director, this guy named Alejandro Inarito, he wanted to shoot in natural light as much as possible. So there's actually only a singular scene that has any unnatural lighting in it. But it meant, I mean, a very in nature experience for the crew. They were constantly waiting for the moon to be in the right place, for the sun to come through the trees at the right moment. That'd be so fun to be on that set. It's not too late to leave your job, Nate. I know I might. I might. So, Alyssa has an idea of why these movies are so popular. I think a big part of it is we like to root for the underdog. And I guess in a situation where you have the entire, like, all of nature against somebody, the human in that circumstance kind of becomes the underdog. What I want to add here is that underdog, it almost always survives. It would be so lame if they just died at the end. How bad would that have been if Leonardo DiCaprio was just like, he just gets mauled to death by a bear. Okay, well, then I have a question for you with that, Nate, which is, what do you think then that this type of movie does to shape our view of nature? Well, you can spin it two ways. You could say that for some, it makes nature seem brutal, dangerous, evil. For others, it would be nature is brutal. It can kill you. You've got to respect it because if you aren't prepared or if you find yourself in a dangerous situation, you've got to kind of figure it out, which is also true. People do get lost in the woods. People struggle with hypothermia. Wild country is wild for a reason. But I think that it really depends on who's watching it and what your experience is outdoors, what kind of experiences you've had. Yeah. I also think I know that I get a little dopamine hit when I watch these Man V. Wild movies. I do notice that what it makes me feel is like, all I want is for Leonardo DiCaprio to get out of the wilderness. Or when I'm watching Tom Hanks and Castaway, all I want is for him to get off the island. I feel like it's often cultivating in me this repulsion towards nature, which I don't really want to cultivate in lots of movies. Yeah, but they're also not on a maintained trail just feeling like a little lost. I mean, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. It's that other flip side of nature as evil, nature as dangerous. Nature is something to be afraid of when it's obviously a lot more complicated than that. OK, so after looking at the nature as antagonist trope, I think it makes sense to look at the total opposite. This nature as beautiful, ideal like pristine even. So. Walt Disney, the world's greatest storyteller, brings the world's greatest love story to the screen. There is no better case for this than the world of early Disney animation. The story that proves that love can be loaded with love. Nate, even if you haven't heard the phrase, what does the word Disney aficion evoke for you? Big eyes, animals with huge eyes. That speaks truly volumes. So this is a term that is thrown around by sociologists and culture critics. And it's the idea of portraying nature in the most simplified, safe, harmonious view as possible. Bambi, which comes out in 1942, is the masterclass of this, arguably creating, I think, probably the most popular real fake forest on the big screen for this generation. I talked to this guy. He's named David Whitley. He spent his whole career at Cambridge studying children's film, and he wrote a book called The Idea of Nature in Disney Animation. Disney has overarching, very optimistic sorts of plots. I think it looks for spaces within nature, which are in harmony. It's a very old sort of idea, really. You know, as a great example, listen to this shot of a song in Bambi. It's called Little April Showers. Little April shower, beginning to measure fall all around. Little April shower, what can compare with your little April shower? One of the things that it did, I think, was to take the fast-moving gag of the cartoon, the energy of it, and keep some of it, but put it into something which was like a full-blown drama or melodrama often, and to allow a kind of depth of feeling in there. And what he explained to me is that this idea, this Disney-ification, it tends to bother a lot of critics. The assumption was that Disney was a realm of enchantment for children, something whose sentimentality and optimism were false things. There is actually something to this criticism. I'm going to give you the, I think, best example I came across for this. When Frozen came out, much more recent animated film, a U.S. special representative to the Arctic reached out to the Disney folks, and they said, can we make educational clips using these Disney characters to let children know about the dangers of climate change affecting the Arctic? You know what Disney said? Nope. Exactly. They said, we tell stories with happy endings, and we don't want our characters to be part of this narrative of something that is pretty not happy. Wow. That's pretty telling. Also just for the current political climate and how Disney is interacting with that political climate, it makes a lot of sense to me. It is why you will not find images of Elsa and Olaf on melting ice caps anywhere near you. Just floating on a single iceberg, clinging on to life. The critique here is that movies that are just choosing to show this optimism, that it is not showing a realistic view of nature. I feel like it's almost like nature misinformation. Well, okay. So, let's give Bambi some credit. 1942. This is an era where you've got Black Beauty, you've got Bambi, like different era of a shift in how we're looking at wild places. And you know, while you could look at these harmonious ecosystems in Bambi and roll your eyes, David says that children's animated films do introduce thornier themes about nature. This is where I got to ask you, Nate, what is your relationship between the movie Fern Golly? Yeah. I watched again probably every day after school for months, if not years. Deep in the heart of the forest, there is a magical world where wondrous creatures play the day away. It's been a very long time since I've seen it. I just remember the bat flying around and the giant smoke monster that also drove some sort of logging truck. Your childhood memory does serve us correctly. We've got this, you know, magical world of fairies in this rainforest, very comical bat named Batty, and this evil timber company that is trying to cut them all down. The villain, literally a dark blob of pollution who, I don't know if you remember this, voiced by Tim Curry. He has a song in the movie called Toxic Love. I'm gonna crush and grind all creatures, great and small, and put up parking lots and shiny shopping malls. Totally on the nose, we are talking about the environment there. Small aside, very similar plot to Avatar, if you think about it. Yeah, totally is. But it is, it's like a very simplistic idea of how we as people interact with nature, right? It's like timber companies, bad in Bambi, hunters, bad. Pretty much human beings destroy the pristine-ness of nature and kind of ignoring the fact that human beings have been interacting and are a part of nature and have been a part of nature for tens of thousands of years. I don't know, but for a child, for an eight-year-old, I was like, yeah, logging is bad. Well, I hate to break the news to you, but you are not the only 90s child to have thought that. When I asked my students, what are the films that they think of when they think environment films, they say for N'Gully. This is Salma Manani. She's an environmental studies professor at Gettysburg College who focuses on eco-cinema, which is like an entire discipline that is just looking at films through the environment. And for years, she used to hear the same very similar reflection from her students on this very movie. When I was a child, I really, really watched this film and I loved it. It really made me sort of think about the environment in a different way. But Salma basically makes the argument that you can essentially chart shifting environmental concerns by looking at the most popular kids' movies of each generation. So in the 90s, it was for N'Gully. That was the time when people were really starting to pay attention to rainforest deforestation, right? But for today's students, for them, it's more films like Moana, films like Nemo. Marie, I'm so old. I haven't even seen Moana. What about Finding Nemo? I've seen Finding Nemo. I've seen Finding Nemo. Not that old. Even though he knows who Dory is. Yeah, I mean, so for me, Finding Nemo really did leave an impact. Like I cannot remember a time I was alive that I did not know about coral reefs dying, which feels crazy to me. And for the kids of today, they might not see Elsa on educational materials sponsored by some Arctic representative. Frozen 2, I don't know if you've seen this, Nate, has Nature Spirits, a visit to Glaciers. I would not be the first person to argue. It's kind of a climate story. One of the things I like to say is that because film is media, like so much other media, it gets us to think. And it's thinking that could spark action. And so how we think about the world around us, including things that are nature or our relationship to what we consider natural, has a lot to do with how we've been exposed to it and popular film does that. I decided on the show we're going to call this from here on out the Fern goalie effect. I appreciate that, Marina. Not calling it the Finding Nemo effect. Thank you. Thank you. New message. Yeah, I said in, this is Beth and I just heard about you doing an environmental movie night. And I think one you should really check out is Princess Mononoke. It's the studio Ghibli movie from Japan. So enjoy that. New message. My name is David Hath. I'm responding to favorite movies centered around nature in a big way. And I have two. One is Spring Forward revolves around one year of two guys working for city parks. And it's basically poetry and motion. And two into the great solitude. It's by a solo canoeist. It goes on a dream adventure way up in Canada. Thank you. End of recording. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but I promise the cinematic ramp that continues right after this. Three years ago, I discovered freediving and I fell in love with it. It's a sport defined by a simple objective. To dive as deep as you can on one single breath. I became a calling. But then I stumbled on a darker side of the sport. Some of these dives were a bit too good. Rumors were swirling that a group of top athletes were doping to go deeper. And I decided to investigate. Listen to Deep Water wherever you get your podcasts. Listen up. Huh? That means you. Yes, you. We know you're pointing at yourself. When it comes to party power games, we've got a place made for all sorts. From the experts to the drama queens. It's me, the JC. The finance bros. Look at those stalks lads. We'll stick with slots. It's what we're good at. And not forgetting you. Yes, you, the one listening. Because at party power games, we've got all sorts of games for all sorts of trickles. Eligibility rules in terms of conditions apply. Please come for us responsibly. AtomPlus, CamelAware.org. Right now, a guide dog puppy is taking her very first steps. One day, she'll help someone with sight loss live a full and independent life. Find the crossing pass. Good girl. When you sponsor a puppy with guide dogs, you're there for it all. Her wobbly walks. Her first harness. The life changing partnership. It's more than a donation. It's the start of a life changing story. Search, sponsor a guide dog puppy and be part of a story you'll be proud to share. Guide dogs. Wait, wait, wait. Don't skip this. Don't skip this. This is not an ad. This is me, Nate, and I'm here to tell you that it is yet again time to open up the outside inbox to listener questions. We have been getting the most random submissions lately. Like can bobcats get hairballs? Or why does warm dirt smell so good? But we need more questions. So please send us the weirdest, wackiest questions about science and the natural world that you can think of. It is super easy. You can call our hotline at 1-844-GO-AUTER. Or even better, send us a voice memo to OutsideInRadio at NHBR.org. Okay, back to the show. We're back. I'm Marina Henke. I'm Nate Hedge and you're listening to Outside In, a show where curiosity and the natural world collide. And today we're talking about how movies shape our views of nature. For this next part of the show, I wanted to look at how movies have represented just one particular environmental topic. And that is climate change. You ready? Yep. Okay. So when it comes to climate change, I'm going to argue that we get two very different types of movies. The first is that educational documentary. Movie extraordinaire, Nate Hedge, what is the quintessential climate change documentary? Oh, it's an inconvenient truth. You got it. This is Patagonia, 75 years ago and the same pleasure today. This is Mount Kilimanjaro, 30 years ago and last year. So an inconvenient truth, it comes out in 2006. It's made by former vice president Al Gore. The message of the doc is very simple. It is climate change is real. It is human caused and we can do something to stop it. I mean, well, think about those 2006, you know, like we were still calling it global warming. It was fresh 20 years ago. Fresh and apparently good at filling movie seats in 2006. I think it can be easy to forget just how popular this movie was, but there is one common criticism. There's not just like this trick camera work or you're not exploring the depths of the ocean or, you know, mountaintop. This does that you see only in intense nature films or documentaries or whatever. It's really just him with charts and like on a stage. So this is Erin Tron. She's a film critic and a journalist in Boston. Although a total fan of Al Gore, she described an inconvenient truth to me as I quote glorified PowerPoint presentation. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. And like Al Gore isn't exactly the most compelling speaker in the world. And some of the outgoing infrared radiation is trapped by this layer of atmosphere and held inside the atmosphere. And that's a good thing. Was it no email me about this take, but like I would fall asleep to Al Gore's voice. Yeah, and Erin's point to me also was, you know, she teaches a class about climate change on film and she assigns us at the beginning of her class. And her point is we need to understand this as part of the canon, right? Even if we think, OK, glorified PowerPoint presentation, it was the first in many ways to hit this massive success. Yeah. In 2025 now, I mean, we have gone so far beyond an inconvenient truth. In the last year alone, I mean, you can find a documentary about how climate change is linked to wildfires. A separate doc about climate change being linked to hurricanes. They are, though, all trying to dead on change our view of the environment. They are going in with a mission. Right. The second branch of climate change movie. These are the ones that take climate change and they use it as a plot device. They sort of like Trojan horse it in. You cannot talk about this type of movie without talking about the day after tomorrow. Oh, yeah. Have you seen that movie? I have now. Hedlin had some pretty convincing data. They've asked me to feed it into my paleoclimate model to track the next set of events. This is a classic, you know, nobody listens to the scientist kind of movie. We've got a paleoclimatologist who warns the UN that the planet Earth is about to, you know, rapidly enter into another ice age. Yep. Nobody listens. Hold on, Jack, are you suggesting these weather anomalies are going to continue? Not just continue. Get worse. I really like that movie as a I'm on a plane and I'm bored and I want to watch a disaster movie. Huge tidal wave wipes out New York City. All of Scotland and the UK just freeze over immediately. It's so unrealistic, but just from like a watching a movie, eating popcorn. So fun. I mean, we had a listener wrote in and said that this was like one of their comfort movies, you know, for this exact reason, they can sit down and they watch something where this will be full of just, whoa, a tidal wave through New York City. And wolves get loose and like run around on a ship. Is that's a weird whole, yeah, very weird side quest. Yeah. And so you're saying it's good movie because it's a fun disaster movie. The day after tomorrow is not Aaron's favorite movie. It's always the end of the world and it's always one guy who has to save it. And that whole thing is not my thing. Aaron is like not convinced that seeing this type of climate solution again and again is sending the right message. I feel very strongly that this is like a problem that needs collectives. That's really the only way we're going to be able to protect this beautiful natural resource called Earth. Wait, OK, how does day after tomorrow end? Don't they all just migrate south to Mexico? Yep, they do. There's not like one man saves the world. There's one man tries to warn everybody and nobody does anything. And then he just tries to save his son and they go to Mexico. But even that, it's like one guy had the answer. Like if only everyone had listened to the paleo climatologists, we would have been fine. Yeah. And her point is like, well, one person is not going to suddenly raise their hand and be like, I understand how to save planet Earth from climate change. Counterpoint, though, it is really hard to depict a systemic community response in a Hollywood disaster movie. And I would argue that, OK, it might not be showing that. But the movie is showing the dangers of politicians not listening to scientists, which is also kind of important. Yeah, looking at these two types of movies, I have somewhat of a philosophical question for you right here, Nate, which is, which movie do you think is going to inspire more action about climate change? Do you think it's the fact filled documentary?哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎哎 or disaster film, it's really just like maybe help and make a good movie. No, I think like a disaster movie is great fun to watch. But are we all leaving Independence Day worried about aliens? Not necessarily. OK, so as we wrap up, I have a confession to make. Yeah. And that is before I started working on this episode. I had entered only what I can describe as a movie watching drought in my life. I mean, that's not bad, you know, like I don't know. I mean, the so in preparation for today, you know, needed to do my job. So I watched a bunch of movies. I revisited old ones I watched, new ones horrified by some harrowing tales of nature. I'm now scared of sharks storms the season of winter. It is not a masterful takeaway that I found from all this, but I was just reminded just how much movies do transport you. Absolutely. What was your favorite one of all the ones that you saw? Oh, man. I rewatched Beasts of the Southern Wild. Oh, yeah. I remember that one. Yeah, shows flooding that happens in Louisiana. It's kind of part supernatural at the end. But, you know, I haven't been down to Louisiana ever. And it was just how often do I spend an hour and a half staring at images of a landscape that I don't know? Oh, man, I just love that movies can take you to new places. It made me think back to this one moment in my interview with David Whitley. That's the professor who studied animation. I'd asked him this question of like, how can you tell if a movie is really going to impact a child's conception of nature? There's a sort of question as to within that whole image ecosystem. What is it that gets through and sort of depth to then we carry with us as a sort of touchstone for something that we we hold on to later on? And to be honest, I mean, I don't know the answer to that, but you sort of feel that the things that you love are things which are more deeply invested in your in your memory. I guess, you know, I think David or Salma or Alyssa, like they can't actually tell you that is the movie that is going to make you really connect with nature. But I think that we all know it when it happens, right? When we see that movie that just makes its way in. And they they have a capacity to come back and and make connections for and with you at later stages in your adult life. Now, if there is a movie about nature that's stuck with you in some way, let us know. Send a voice memo to outside in at an HPR dot org or call our hotline. One eight four four, go order. New message. My name is Emma and the nature movie that I love is The Day After Tomorrow. I watch it numerous times a year. I like how quickly things go wrong and go crazy in that movie. I just love it so much and I love you guys. And I'm looking forward to this episode. Thanks. End of recording. The story was reported, produced and mixed by Marina Hanky. It was edited by our executive producer, Taylor Quimby. I am your host, Nate Hedgie. Our staff also includes Justine Paradis, Felix Poon and Jessica Hunt. Rebecca LaVoy as NHPR's director of On Demand Audio. By the way, we are going to make a movie list to accompany this episode. You can find a link to that in these show notes or on our website outside in radio.org. Music is from Blue Dot Sessions, L Flacco Collective and Bob Mule. Outside in is a production of NHPR. Hello, I'm a nocturnal placental flying mammal. A member of the family of Teo Did I or Teo Did Not. And they used to call me Batty, Batty Coda. Have you ever asked yourself, can the president really do that? Or wondered if there is too much money in political campaigns? Then check out the new season of You Might Be Right, hosted by us, former Tennessee governors Phil Bredesen and Bill Haslam. Or back for a brand new season now. And you might be right, cements the idea that constructive disagreement can lead to real problem solved this season. We're going to dig into the role of the National Guard, AI regulation and a lot more. New episodes drop every other week. Follow You Might Be Right wherever you get your podcasts. 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