Jeremy Bolm: Touché Amoré, Grief, Growth, & 10 Years of STAGE FOUR

I remember we were playing a festival in Europe. I got pulled in, you know, it was pouring rain at a festival and it was like, hey, you have to do this interview. So I'm like, okay, go and, you know, close the van door, just, you know, classic doing an interview in a van. And the guy just starts bawling at me about the record. It just kind of seemed like he just needed to talk to me. That was the part of the, of that album that I did not expect and still don't have a good handle on of like, hey man, person, anyone. I'm also going through this. Hello, welcome. It's hard Lord time. How are you doing, Beau? I'm doing great. I'm very excited this evening. Who do we have? It's a beautiful day here in the valley at the Pitt recording studio. Speaking of the valley, I've got to introduce our, our lovely, lovely guests today. It's a big week on the show. So allow me to introduce a true San Fernando Valley, OG. One of the most prominent voices in post hardcore with blast beats, a music aficionado, two Shamore vocalist and my friend of over 20 years. How about that? Jeremy Balm. Oh, come on. It's, it's nice to be, I'm going to do the, come on, reach over me. The far reach. Welcome. Thank you. How are you feeling? How are you doing? I'm, I'm good. I was just saying this might be, as I've gotten older, I've become a lot more nervous with interviews. I don't know why that is. Because everything can go everywhere so fast. I don't know. You know, I don't know if it's really that. I think it's just, I don't know. It's like, I've never had stage fright. You guys, nothing. Anything bad? Bad shows. I'm horrified. Great shows. I'm like, let's go. Yeah. I think just when we've been doing this as long as we have, we've felt all the things of like, this went well. This didn't go well. And I think that anxiety and the stress of the world nonstop has like amplified all the things that could go wrong. But I'm with friends. Yeah. Yeah. And that's all. You're safe here. You got your mood struck out. Yeah. Oh my God. I just noticed that. Share. Yeah. Shout out to share, friend of the show, share, obviously. Let's go back in time here. Okay. Let's get real comfortable. Let's get real familiar. And I want to learn some things about you today. Okay. There's so much I don't know. Yeah. Let's go back in time. Yeah. Tell me about young Jeremy. Okay. Growing up. Where did you grow up in Burbank? Burbank. St. Joe's Hospital. Wow. Yeah. I got my appendix out there. Wow. That's where it happened with the Burger King. How about that? Yeah. You see with the Burger King? Yeah. It's a whole thing. Do it and say it real quick. It's, it's. They have to hold it a bunch. But when I got my appendix out, it ruptured. Yeah. Didn't, wait. Yeah. It ruptured, didn't burst. Right. On my way there, I was like, I'm feeling a little... This hurts, but I gotta eat. Like maybe it's that. Yeah. I was like, well, I'm going to the doctor. I gotta eat something. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So I got a double whopper combo large. Full, full sugar, Dr. Pepper. Yeah. I feel like on the list of things to ingest before an appendectomy, that's like on the... No, it's on a chart. Don't get the double whopper. Yeah, double whopper is on the chart, the do not, do not ingest chart. Got there and they were like, yeah, this has got to come out. Have you eaten anything today? I was like, well, you know. See, the thing is this. Yeah. Buy anything. Does a double whopper, large fry, onion ring and a full sugar, Dr. Pepper count? So I stayed an extra day. Lovely hospital. Great place to be born. Congrats. Yeah, yeah. Tell me about growing up in Burbank. Yeah, it's... You spent some time there. I love it. Yeah. It's an interesting place to grow up. Yeah. This has come up, you know, just talking to mutual valley friends or just people, people from other states that had very more rural upbringings. It's kind of a fascinating thing to say where it's like, it kind of messes with your brain a bit when you're a kid because you'll put on a movie and be like, that's opening. First time I saw it back to the future. Yeah. He skates out of the parking lot. Next to the Burger King. Right. Oh, hey. Yeah, the whole time is again. It's the Burger King. And what used to be in that parking lot was the Toys R Us. Yeah. So as a kid, you know, you know that location. Wow. So. Super bad. Right. The liquor store down the way. My high school was where they filmed the Wonder Years. The true romance Safari Inn is around the corner from where I grew up. I have a little bit of that with Chicago. John Hughes movies. And you know, like you get a little bit of that, but not I come here and I'm like, yeah, you know, so wow. So there's so there's that weirdness. And then there's also if you are born and raised there, there's a chance that your folks work in the industry in some capacity. It's probably not a glamorous job. It's probably, you know, I was raised with a single mom definition, lash key kid. I lived around the block from my high school. So it was just like ditching school with my dickhead friends and just like, you know, hanging out and whatever else, not really being policed on what I was doing, watching or whatever. But I also had two parents that were so burnt out by work and also being a single mom that like, uh, I was never taken to the movies. Oh, it was just like, I work in movies. I don't want to go do more of that. So you discovered because you're a big movie guy. So I had to find all of that stuff on my own. And I've talked to other friends from Burbank and they kind of agree that it's like, it's kind of a weird thing where it almost makes you sort of devoid of culture, even though you're surrounded by it. So yeah, it wasn't until I got like, I love TV and things like that, but it wasn't until like at older that that, uh, going to friends houses, whose parents also didn't police them on what they're watching. And it's just like, oh yeah, my dad, you know, my mom didn't watch a ton of stuff of friends who's like, oh yeah, my dad, let me rent, you know, Terminator 2 Predator, you can die hard and then R rated movies and everything else kind of came into my life. But you know, I don't know how you. Things that are kept from us that become like, well, now I need unlimited of that. Yes. Sometimes. Absolutely. Not for me. What? You know, I'm just saying. Yeah, you're not like a horror guy. So what came first, music or movies? Uh, music. Yeah. Yeah, music. I was pretty obsessed, pretty young. Um, I was of the age group that like Michael Jackson was just like inescapable. It was just like instantly just like, I need, how can I get a jacket that looks like that? Like just obsessed. Um, CD I ever bought was thriller as a child. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll talk a little bit more about thriller later. Yeah. Bad was mine. Ah, yeah, Sam. Like bad. Sam. Just that music video was just like the epitome of cool. Yeah. To me. Um, I think it was like the mix of like, never put this together until now, but like the bad music video with like Jean jackets, leather jackets, that sort of a thing. And then also like Ernest goes to camp. There was the one bad boy kid. Yeah. Who had like the cut off Jean vest and like spiky bracelet is like kind of my intro to like, oh, that I think that could be punk. That's awesome. Kind of a thing. Which is interesting. But thank you, Martin Scorsese and Ernest and Ernest. Yes. It always comes back to both. So what are some early punk bands you connected with? Oh, uh, how did you find them? So. My like, okay. So I liked Michael Jackson and stuff like that. And then I got unsurprisingly obsessed with Nirvana Pearl Jam. Okay. I was, I was the right age to write everything for that. Like I, like, you know, Kurt Cobain died day before, uh, yeah, day before my birthday. What was that like for white people in 1994? Huge. Yeah. Huge. Yeah. Burbank dude. Yeah, dude. Tears everywhere. Yeah. I was, I was, uh, about to turn 11. Okay. Okay. So I was in the backseat of a neighbor's car. They had taken us to pinks. Hot dogs. Oh, man, we had a. Those are our guys, man. We had a hard Lord dog. We had a dog. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. That's cool. What was on it? Gwakmoly. You know, yeah. Gwak is version one. V2. V2 is going to be lit. Trust me. What was on it? Chicago dog with Gwak. It was a Chicago dog with Gwak, basically. Oh, yeah. Which doesn't that sound nice? It's cool. It was good. It was legitimately good. Yeah, it's, I like that it's a mix of both of your personalities. We try. We'll do more. But yeah, like I was backseat of the backseat and it came on over the radio. It was like Kurt Cobain, lead singer of Nirvana, passed away in his home. And I was so devastated that I didn't get out of the car. Like I was just like confused. It was like the first like, and I took it like personally too, because it was like right before my birthday where I was just like music. And I've said, I was just like, I generally was like music is done for me. Like I'll never like music again. How could he do that? Yeah, straight up. Because but in a way, that's how your brain thinks as a kid. You're just like, but you're you're. You're my god. You're my god. Yeah. So that was devastating. Did you discover Pearl Jam in Nirvana because of like K-Rock and other stuff? Or was it also the MTV K-Rock? Yeah, like the the even flow music video when Eddie Vedder stage dives. You know, this is the. You've been chasing that ever since. You know, as a as the little brother, when you see that and you go, look at all of that attention, like, oh my god, you know, it's just like I think it in plants that I'm going to be like, I want to I want to rock, you know, like that kind of a thing. So that's when all of that. Yeah. And then I just was the kid who there was a record store on the corner right there in Burbank called DB Cooper's coolest name for a record store. And I did not did not know what that was. I the guy who went with the money. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. That was the name of the record store. How awesome. It's awesome. Yeah. And that, you know, that probably closed in the very early 2000s or late 90s or something, but can you recall the first record you ever bought from there? First ever first ever first ever record I bought from there. I probably I probably can't. But but I mean, cassettes. I know some of my first like that I walked into warehouse music, which is what where the chase is. And it used to be a warehouse music. I mean, some of the earliest cassettes were like obviously like the Nirvana 10 or sorry Pearl Jam 10 Nirvana, never mind. But then also like TLC on the TLC tip. Love shit like that. Guns N' Roses, Use Your Illusion, maybe two. Because of Terminator 2. Yeah. Yeah. That actually probably is why. Absolutely. Yeah. Black Album. Metallica. He looks right. Black Album. Black Album. We're we're closer. I'm like right in between you two in age. Oh, OK. So a lot of what you're saying I you're resonating. Yeah, it was like I went to a daycare also being a latchkey kid later on. But when she would have me in daycare, there was one record. The single to beat it. You know what I mean? So it was like I'm like and the the ruins of what you grew up in over by me. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense. How do you go from Nirvana, Pearl Jam to. So I there an easy entry point, which probably gets set a lot here. It's it gets set a lot on my show. Green Day Dookies like an entry entry to like OK, that seems like it's different. And then I found and then through the Southern California Ness found no effects and punk and drum like being being right then and there and hearing the lore that they tried that K-Rock played leave it alone on the air. And apparently Fat Mike called and said stop it. That was lore that kind of came to me in a way where I was like, wait a minute, but no effect seems to be like more punk than Green Day. Yeah, kind of a thing. My first show ever was no effects. No way. Who else played? Do you remember? Yeah, Mad Catties, Frenzel Rom, an Australian punk band who are still rocking this day and something else. Some fat. Oh, it was like all that. All fat records. But punk and drum like was the record. That's awesome. Still. Yeah. Do you still? Yeah, I write for the effects. Absolutely. Yeah, same. Same. You never did. I like I read the book and that. Oh, yeah. Really? Really made me I'm down. Yeah. And they got some. I'm a big bad religion guy. So yeah, that's right. Well, it's funny to not to go full into no effects, but like guitar wise, they are very good guitar players. Lots of crazy picking. Yeah. Drums are rock solid. And then there's all the shit from like melodic punk to fast punk to kind of reggae and stuff to the bruise, which is an OI song. Yeah, which puts in my brain at my first time ever. Here's all OI, OI, OI. Exactly. Yeah, like, oh, this is like a punk thing. I wonder what this is from. Totally. So it was a very it was a perfect gateway into actual underground. Yeah, well said. Yeah. That's that's all too true. Also, give credit where it's due. Those are for degenerates to play. Oh, my God. That's crazy. That's yeah. It's like, no, I got into the replacements later in my life, but it's like to when you have that level of being a degenerate and with that level of talent and being able to do both at maximum ability. Yeah, it's also pretty. Undeniable. Pretty cool. After Kurt died when I was like, music's dead for me. Six months later, I saw the corn blind music video and was like, that is the scariest. What the fuck? And I immediately went and bought that cassette and then that got me into metal. Wow. Yeah. Like, I already had Black Album, but like I didn't and I owned. I like had the Black Album and Justice for All and then really fucking love to countdown to extinction. Well, again, it's unbelievable. Again, isn't is that the Terminator 2 record? No, that would be the last action hero. Oh, it is. It's right. It's the last action hero angry again. Dude, yeah, it's such a good song. That record does rock. It's very Black Album. Yes. It totally. And then they have a song in the bogus journey. The Bill and Ted's bogus soundtrack that goes crazy and they steal the now I lay me down to sleep. It's like straight up entertainment. This track is incredible. It's awesome. Yeah. The. It's funny, a co-worker. I work a few days at Amoeba. A co-worker just told me that apparently the lore about angry again is that he got out of rehab sober and that's the first song he wrote sober. Well, it's wild to be like sobriety made you write the angry. Yeah, that's awesome. It's pretty sick. Broken clock, you know what I mean? Yeah. Amen. OK. Yeah. So we're finding corn. Yeah. Corn, corn and no. Corn and no effects are your gateways to the extreme. And truthfully, and then through all of that. The Ross Robinson of it all. I get very into the subaltera roots. OK. And by the Osfes 96 VHS, which has a crisis on it. Wow. And that's how I learned about straight edge. Wow. Yeah. Is that no. No, Earth crisis. Yeah, but not specifically. Sure. I just remember watching it and being because I bought the VHS strictly for Fear Factory for subaltera. Probably mainly those two. But I remember being I remember watching the Neurosis part, which is in the black and white best shit ever. And I remember just watching that and being like, OK, that's different. Yeah. Like there's something about like I don't know. The Locustar. Is it the Locustar love? That sounds correct. And unreal. Yeah. And then but then also on that VHS has like early like Power Man, five thousand. Yeah. No disrespect to all the Power Man, five thousand fans out there. But I remember thinking like, OK, so that's really gimmicky. Sure. And my cool chambers on there. I'm like, that's really. Yeah, you can tell. And then you watch Earth crisis and you're like, they have X's on their hands. That might be gimmicky. But I want to know more. I want to know more. And they're just dressed like normal people. Yeah. And like it's harder and heavier than almost anything else on this. It's always fascinating as a kid to start refining what you don't like. You know, because like there is a conscious moment. I remember the first movie I saw in theaters that I thought to myself, I didn't like that was Sky Captain in the World Tomorrow. And I was pretty I was old enough to be like, I should have not liked a movie by then. But refining your tastes musically is is that's where you really begin. Is being like, I don't like that. I do like this. Yeah. I'm going to chase this. I love how metallic your entry is. I bet most people would be surprised by that from you. Yeah, they don't know about your first bands like I do. They don't know before we get there. They didn't ever blow your young young mind that Sepultura toured with Earth prices. Like, did you ever you discover that? So there was a record store in Burbank that I eventually started got a chance to work at called Backside, the base player of Downset. Work there, James Morris. He, in so many ways, became my shepherd, even before I started working there to be like, I'm ever going in and getting do we speak a dead language signed by him? Because I just love that record. Like, I thought rage is cool, but I was like, Downset, that's fucking Southern California. Like, came out around the same time. You know, I'm in Grantson, I know Southern California as well, for stuff like that. But like, it had just like a different. It was way more hardcore, obviously. So that interests me a lot. And I remember talking to him and him telling me stories about like, oh, yeah, we took VOD on their first tour. Him telling me insane stories about them touring with Pantera. Like he and tons of stories about touring with Earth crisis, you know, just stuff where you're like, holy shit, like you actually were like right there for all of this stuff. So he's your old head in terms of just entry into the world, the greater world. Yeah, absolutely. Like, once I, once there was little, I'm curious if you might have you might have had this to where it was like because I liked a lot of like I loved deftones also super early on. Like as soon as I got into corn, I found deftones like a week later. You were just looking at the adidas adidas. I was like of like dreadlocks. Yeah. No, but. Yeah, like adrenaline was was massive for me when that came out and loving the deftones. Yeah. Going to D.B. Cooper's opening every CD, reading all the liner notes. Chino sings on in this defiance from strife. That's right. So I was like, and Dino from Fear Factory plays on it too. So I see both those names in the credits and I was like, what the fuck is this CD? But that that's still like an all time favorite hard. And then you find out there from down the street. Yeah, totally. And I was like, wait, this is California or whatever. And then Victor records. And then I'm like, I know that because of the earth crisis thing. And now I'm going to buy a snap case. Now I'm going to buy all anything. This is the universal tale. Yeah. Until like the internet. Yeah, literally. The liner notes, the thank you notes, the features and all that stuff is like a true lost art that I don't think will ever recover. No, because even like Spotify related artists are wrong. Dog shit. Yeah. Like you could still put it in the records and I hope people do. We do, you know, I'm sure, but you're not looking for it for the same reason. You don't have to look at it. You know, yeah. And I wonder if there's also the aspect of there are so many pivotal hardcore records that everybody just knows to point you to be like that one. And then you have the thank you list to be like, here's my path. Right. Whereas like nowadays, we're all in bands that put out several records at all times. So I don't know if it's as easy for someone to find the record from one of your bands, the record from one of your bands, kind of a thing to be like now, which thank you list do I follow? There could be some underrated record no one's ever heard of with the greatest thank you list of all time. True. Yeah. Yeah, you would never. But it's the the the origin of our genre. Yeah. Hardcore. Yeah. It was right there, you know, and it is this traceable tree that you can follow to get to us. Yeah. And I hope people learn about the roots of that tree every time we talk about them. That's why you do it. It is the it is a genre where that is important. Yeah. You know, and it just it puts everything in context. Yeah. Earth crisis and bad brains. There's one there's like a there's one line that separates them. There's a thing that always I feel like it's talked about too. And it's similar conversations is like when you take a chance on a CD, you know. We're like you see the label and you're like it's used. It's eight bucks. Oh, yeah, I'll grab it. And it's so rough. But you're like, well, I spent my allowance on it. I'm going to do I'm going to make myself like this. Absolutely. And you eventually kind of do track eight is like that was. Yeah. But there is what's interesting too is even when pirating came along, there was still a sense of that because it was a pain in the ass to just get it on your right. Six hours now. Loading all 30 megabytes of this album. You know what I mean? Ninety two kilowatts per second. Yeah. Front of your show. Someone I just had. Davey Havoc. So I got to tell him that I think my intro to AFI was the Godmoney soundtrack, which they were on. But also but had also had descendants, which is still has my favorite descendants on it because I bought that. But I bought that because it has because strife was on it, because far was on it. Because it had all of this stuff. There's the band Living Sacrifice like Christian Michuga, basically. Hearing that being like, what the fuck? But it was that was also became a roadmap, like just discovering that soundtrack. And just been what? So how does that turn into finding local community in hardcore? Who are your who's your circle? And Burbank Burbank H.C. I had to go to Orange County. Really? That's where I started. Taken. Oh, yeah. Taken was huge. Like I had friends that knew them. So I got to know them. There was Couscafe out in Orange County that I would go to see them play. They were always playing with bands like Curl Up and Die from Vegas. So got friendly with with those people. The first tour I ever got I ever did was selling merch for Taken. And they were supporting Poison the Well. And like Poison the Well. That's good first tour. It was, you know, four days, something like that. But but like it was my first experience being in a van. Yeah. Selling merch at a show, like being around new people. You know, I was probably 18 years old. Are you pitting hard? Everyone? No, it's just that I was just at the table. But just by being like this is cool. Yeah, I'm on tour. Yeah, I just on tour. It's just neat. But yeah, it was it was really cool. And then the bass player of Taken, Nick Beard, went on to be in Circa Survive. And so when we got the offer to open for Circa Survive back in 2012, it was because of that connection I had with with Nick Beard back when. So that was like super nice. Did he remember? Oh, yeah, yeah, we we. Oh, you didn't know each other pretty well. Yeah, but he had but he had moved to the to the east coast and I hadn't seen him in so long. So Orange County becomes your local scene. Yeah, you got a couple guys in Burbank, though. I did. You did. Yeah. You would start a couple bands with them. We'll get there in a second. You can't wait. I can't wait. Collect when you start collecting records. Yeah, Burbank band. It's a Burbank band called Bleedy, Kansas. Do you remember a band called Kansas? They put out records on Abacus, which was that century media affiliated label. But they got to record with Kurt Ballu. So for a band from Burbank, dude, you guys are recording with Kurt Ballu like, holy shit, right? So they to us, like even when Tushae started, the very first Tushae song on the very first demo is called the Go Shading the Shraid. I wrote it on guitar and that's why it sounds nothing like any other Tushae songs because that was the one song I wrote. OK. And it was me just trying to write a Bleeding, Kansas song. Like it just straight up is like you're just keeping that OG Burbank shit alive. Alive, right. The drummer of Bleeding, Kansas, gentlemen named Daniel Poliat. He just filled in for us. Playing drums for because Elliot has a has a has a new baby. So so he so Daniel, the man who played in Bleeding, Kansas and got me into collecting vinyl. Yeah, he's still around. It's just played with us. So cool to play with him. He's important. He's in Horse the Band. Oh, really? He's a drummer. Horse the Band. Yeah. Horse the Band is Burbank, H.C. by Association. Affiliated. There they kind of have some. OK. All right. Well, yeah, you learn. Base player. You learn. Base player of Thriller is also in Horse the Band. Really? We'll get there in a second. What's what do you think is the craziest single thing in your record collection? Well, it's tough, but. Because I have sentimental, but then I have also like value. I'm talking about value. I'm talking about. Yeah, monetary value. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have like all the like I have every pressing of Jane Doe, like that helps, you know? But also. Before we were on camera, we're talking about Hellfest. Yeah. The. The last Hellfest that happened in 2004, I think it was. I brought such little money, but I was like, I'm going to want to buy some merch, you know? So I probably brought like 100 bucks or something like that. That could get you far back then. Yeah, yeah, back then. Yeah. So I was like, I brought 100 bucks with me, you know? Literally 10 t-shirts. Yeah, truthfully. Yeah. And I walked in and this guy had his distro out and was selling his personal collection. And the first flip was Asesia 7 inch. And it's like it's like this. It's called like the coffin kids club 7 inch, which is like hand numbered out of 25. And it's like the most sought after thing. And the fact that it was like the first flip. And then I went to his LPs and the first flip of that was the Asesia LP, which was also impossible to find. So I literally spent my hundred dollars on two records. And immediately I was like, well, I'm done. I'm done. That's it. I'm not coming home with anything except these. Yeah. And then at one point I had him in my backpack. Andrew W.K. was on stage later that night. I was circle pitting with everybody else. And my friend and someone came up to me and was like, your backpack's open. Scares me. Oh, my God. At that point in my life, scariest, scariest moment of your whole life. That point in my life. That was the scariest. The craziest thing. Yeah. And probably the Halloween 7. Halloween 7. Oh, he's got a good one. He's got a good one. You got a bag, too. I do have the bag. It's whatever. It's awesome. What about you? Aside from he got he gave me a walk among us first press. That's probably monetarily the most, I think. But I also have I have a double r mastering of Led Zeppelin 2, the one that skips it's so it's mastered so loud. Yeah, that is cool. You have a specific record you regret selling or trading. Yes. I had an original pressing of Humb's Downward as Heaven Word on Blue Vinyl, which I got an Amoeba for seven dollars. And someone I still know to this day was like, oh, I have this work in split seven inch. And at the time, I was like getting really into all the spring of stuff. And I was like, yeah, for sure. And we did the trade and like it was a very quick interaction. And then I got I realized it was an extremely water damaged cover. So I was I felt very immediately kind of knew I fucked up. Yeah, but now I like it kind of haunts me. We'll see if we can find that for that buyer's remorse, that feeling when you get. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it's like that record goes for quite a lot. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. When did the long straightened hair come for you? Because, man, it was such a unique vibe when I was like, this guy is wild. Yeah, I can't even imagine. Oh, it was unbelievable. That's so. It was iconic, really. Some of us were just really victims of the era. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I never had cool hair. Let me start by saying that. But you're pitting for for and you know, UK at health and so forth. So like you're you're cool, you know, I appreciate it. You're doing great. I never had cool hair. It was always just like like dense and and like curly. But like it it couldn't do anything, you know, and I never had a cool hair. All my friends had straight, long hair, you know, like just always or like everyone had like what I called the Pantera, like the shave underneath. Yeah, ponytail up and junior high. Everyone I knew had that. So like I just never had, you know, just I was like the odd person out just being like, I got nothing over here. And so when all of a sudden it was like, wait a minute, I can grow this out and just and now now I can be one of them. Uh huh. Yeah, I was terrible at doing it, though. So you have any photos of it? Oh, sure. Here they are. Now you have to do it. That's what it looks like. Wow, that looks crazy. Isn't that great? That's nuts. I saw him giggin' with that hair for years. Where did you find this photo that you're using? You sent it to me. I sent it to you? Yeah. After the we were done with the party. Fantastic. Great. I'll find like the least embarrassed. Yeah, no, it's up to you. You choose your own destiny. It'll be a photo from us playing at the cobalt. I love it. Yes, probably there. With your hair is naturally curly. Yeah. Yeah. OK. And over the pandemic, I felt it fitting and I was like, lucky. It's how to do it, man. Because we met very briefly in Belgium in 2010. Yeah. Nails, Arms Away, Rise of Fall, played in two shape, played two. The show was like a combined. Yes. We met very briefly. I think there's one other band that was on that that also makes it crazy. Trap them. Yeah. I think. Yeah. Stack Show. Yeah, it was like a stacked show in Haasalt Belgium. Someone was there. But it was good. But we met briefly and I don't... Me, you look the same. Oh, I did not have that hair then. OK. Yeah. No, not this. No, no, no. But even any hair. Oh, oh, oh, yeah, sure. It just had like short brown hair. Yeah. It was just... Classic hair. Just, it was just hair. Classic hair. Let it go hair. Yeah. You've had such a unique speaking voice from the day I met you. Yeah. Was that a source of adversity for you growing up? You know, it's funny. I've thought about going into this here. Let's do it. Yeah. Because I've never been open about this. Oh. So it's a condition. Wow. So throughout all my years, especially being in Touche and having to do interviews on the road and every time having to do an interview on the road, my voice is thrashed or whatever. And or just people hear me talk regularly and they're like, that guy fucked up his voice. I've always sound... You've known me a long time. Yeah, a whole time. I've always sounded like this. It is a condition. And have you ever heard... Do you know anything about... Was this leading anywhere? Just out of care. No. OK. Because I have a record label. It's called Secret Voice. And that's been an inside joke for people closest to me who know what that is. OK. Because if I wanted to, I could talk like that. You just... Dude, what? I just jumped out of my skin. What? You just scared the hell out of me. So you've always... Dude, you're like the incredible Hulk. You're always angry. And that's your secret? That's crazy. That was unbelievable. There was a rapper. There was a hip hop guy recently. Holy shit. I thought Taylor just played something. Yeah, that was unreal. What is the condition? Bad-ass motherfucker, I... Goddamn, dude. Holy shit. This ties in to all things Touche. OK. I can't talk louder than this. Like, I just can't. Like, my voice breaks up. But I yell in Touche. Hey. Hey! That's that. So it's two different things. So it's called mutational falsetto. That's your falsetto? No, my talking voice. Oh, OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. So you're talking in the falsetto? My talking voice is this. And it's... It is... It's like curable. Oh. If you read about it. Don't you dare cure that. No. You are not... Is there a need to cure it other than convenience? So when you read about it, it's basically like... So if we can get personal... Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As personal as you want. I feel comfortable here. Absolutely. It's hard lore, so it's lore. And I thought about talking about this too, because you guys have a great platform. And I think... I've historically gotten really frustrated by the amount of people who just think I'm bad at my job. You know, we're just like, oh, that guy can't do this or something like that. Which is insane. Like, you've sounded this way from the day I met you. Totally. And you are the singer of a coveted band, a genre leading band, and you have a fucking podcast. Right, yeah. And the podcast for me was my way of kind of confronting my... Because this is the thing I'm like absolutely most self-conscious about. Oh, really? 100%. Like, when I... The amount of times in my life when I meet somebody for the first time, and they'll be like, can I get you some tea? That type of thing? Sure. It's just like... It's just always been something that I'm like super... It's why I don't like being in loud environments. Like, going to a bar because I can't project. Project, I know exactly. And it's that sort of a thing. So I get really stressed out about it. And so... I was a late gloomer, and I think having all my friends mature faster than me made me then nervous about my voice then changing. So without me realizing it, it kind of like stuck me in this place where I mentally just like... I was like, I refused. This is what I've learned about reading about it. It's kind of like you refuse to let it all happen naturally, even though your body completely changes in every other way. Yeah, so it's just... That's at least what I've learned from it. But like you can... If you read, it's like, Oh, this is something that is curable through going to basically like voice therapy. Holy shit. Because what I just did for you guys was like the lowest version of it. That was great. I'm still... Yeah, I mean, I can talk... It can get really low down there. You know about this, Erica? But this is probably what my voice would be, which is like a little bit of a mid-judger's voice. Yeah. Wow. This is crazy. How many people know about this? Probably. So this is interesting. I used to... It used to be my party trick on tour with bands. That like I become close with. Of course, yeah. It's like not something that I've... I talk about. My family didn't really even know I could do it. I don't know that they... We never talked about it. So for me, it was like a fun party trick. And it was always called Secret Voice. And... Jeremy did the Secret Voice. Yeah, right. But I've also been very protective of it. We're like, if you and I were on tour together and I did it for you and you thought it was a riot... Don't tell him. And then we're at a show a year later and you go up and you're like, do it. I would never. Wow. It's like... You hear that? Yeah. Don't do that. So that's also why it's like... Here it's like... Because I think a part of me wanting to potentially talk about it was maybe put to rest the amount of people who just don't understand what's wrong with me. You know? What's wrong with you? And the amount of people in my life, whether friends, lovers, whatever, who are just like, you're you. Yeah, 100%. You're good. Like, you know, my girlfriend right now is like, I would have never thought twice about how you sound. No, dude. Which is nice to hear, but my brain... It's hard for my brain not to be like, I don't believe you. Because it's the thing that I'm most self-noticed of. You know what's... This is not about your voice, but just you in general. Is like, we'll tell people what episodes we have coming up. We did this six times. And it'll be like the chorus, hard-core people imaginable. Beat down guys. And we'll be like, yeah, we got this coming up. We got Jeremy Bolton coming up. They'll be like, yeah, Jeremy's sick. Like, no matter who it is. Like literally multiple people today. Multiple people today, we were Super Bowls today. We were at a Super Bowl party. Multiple people today were like, great guy. What a guy. God, Jeremy's awesome. So, don't matter what you sound like. And nobody said crazy voice. Yeah. Everybody said great guy. I appreciate that. Yeah. And, you know, I mentioned being nervous for this. Like, I think that was lingering in my head. And also, as I've gotten older, the more nervous I get, I feel my voice break up a lot more. So there's also that. It's all mental. Exactly. You know, maybe you've talked about this, where like someone once explained to me losing your voice is mental, which is, I kind of believe it. Because for instance, You have like a monk-like practice, though. Where you're doing this thing. Yeah. That your control of your voice is kind of mental. Is it hurt you to do the secret voice? Not at all. You just, it's a choice, not. It's a choice. And I've met. You're so awesome. Which one is the secret voice, by the way? The deep one. The deep one is the secret. Be a bit. Just being able to do that. The one he summons is the secret voice. Yeah. So, so like. I didn't know if that was the secret, or if the secret was that he's using it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No. There was a rapper, a hip hop artist recently, I saw on YouTube, sure, it's in my algorithm. He does the same thing. Okay. He makes it a very high pitched voice. Yeah. But sings in a different. No, not even his singing voice, and people would ask him why, and be like, because, and he would go into the other voice. His secret voice. Oh, interesting. I cannot, I'm sure somebody will comment and let us know who it is, I can't remember who it is, but. I've met two people in my life. Now. Really? Yeah. It's not my place to say. Of course, of course. But one plays in a band within our world. A bit. And he was the first person to talk to me about it. Did he clock it? Or did he know? Yeah, he, he, he, he, the first time we met, he said, you got the big boy voice, don't you? This is a secret society. Dude, what? A secret voice society. Yeah. And it kind of fucked me up a bit, and I do feel some guilt there, because I think he was looking for comfort. And I kind of was like, I didn't, I didn't know it was a thing. Like, to find out that this thing that I just thought was my shit was like a condition is what kind of fucked me up. Was there any comfort in that? I don't think so, because, because, I guess just to kind of find out that it's like, oh, it's like a medical condition. Yeah, but it's like the coolest medical condition. But it's funny. It's so playing shows, touring and stuff like that. I can yell all day. But my talking voice can get fucked up from doing that. So like, I can still go do my job. But it gets harder to like communicate. And then when I'm on the road, it's like, hey, you have two interviews today. I'm just like, great, because all the comments are going to be, this guy can't fucking do his shit. And it's just like, and I know you're not supposed to read the comments and stuff like that. But after a while, it fucking, it eats at you. Jeremy, tell me about your first band ever. So the first band was called Victim of Atrocity. Hardest name for a bunch of white kids from perfect It's a really hard name. Yeah. That's an earth crisis song. Yeah, it was, I mean, it was so bad. I sang and played a standard tune guitar that I guarantee was not in tune. And it was like, but we were like playing like blind and standard. Oh, cool. So just awful. We played a talent show that was like the first time ever getting up on stage and did that. I was wearing a D-Dez jumpsuit. My two band members were dressed like Marilyn Manson. Which era? Of Manson, like Antichrist. Yeah, okay. Ripped with the one with the ribs. After the ribs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Forgive me for asking. Sure. Did you or have you ever sang in the secret voice? That's what I'm, I mean, well that. In like an aggressive way, you know what I mean? That's literally what Tushae is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like anytime it's just like, hey! Oh, I'm sorry, I meant like a low. Here we go. Yeah, yeah. Very good. So, I mean if someone was to listen to like the songs in Tushae where I'm like, where I'm actually singing, singing, you can be like, I've heard plenty of people be like, is that you? Different voice. Kind of a thing. Ben Addiction. Like something like that. Who's that guy? Yeah. Yeah. It's been him the whole time. It's been me the whole time. So, okay, Victim of Metrocity. Okay, Metrocity, yeah. Now, I know where you want to go. Is your first real back. Cut to the chase. Okay, so I've been, so Victim of Metrocity is where I get my like, I play guitar, like this is whatever. And then get to high school, meet a gentleman named Zach, who he and I find straight edge the same time, become straight edge together. We decide we should start some, start a band. So we do, and at first it's extremely new metal. We're like a very new metal band, even had a DJ at some point. Wow. He had a lot of bands with DJs, that's that. He did, yes he did. Yeah. And so that band was called Stricken. Here we go, baby. Yeah, so it was originally called Denounce. Okay, sick name. All good names so far. And then became Stricken. I think even Schrapnel was in there at some point. Which like, yeah. Hard, these are all hard names. So Stricken. Yeah. My knowledge is like the godfathers of the combining breakdowns and like electronic dance parts genre. Yeah, our joke for the longest time was like, we were the Fugazi of the worst shit in the A-way of our life. 100% you, like broken side, look you are Ian Mackay to blood on the dance floor. 100%. Holy. Yeah, but also. And I was in the pit, dude. You saw Stricken. Shaking my ass, kicking my spings. I'll tell you what. I mean, you know it's funny, because if you were to like walk into that room now and watch it, it was probably a much smaller situation. But to us at that time, it was like, those cobalt shows got pretty packed. And it was like a bunch of bands kind of doing beat downy sort of stuff. And then we would go up there. Boos, boos, boos, boos, boos. And you saw Stricken at the cobalt cafe. A ton. We were the house band. Yeah. It's like. This was fascinating, I had no idea. He told me I would like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, so we would have people swinging on each other. And then all of a sudden, all the girls would come in and just start dancing like crazy. It was crazy. And then they would meet, they would leave. Club dance? Yes. They had actual dance. No, I understand, I just didn't know if it was like. And then they would clear out and then the moshers would come back. The adults would. And like, listen, in my mind it's packed. Yeah, yeah, in mine too. I imagine the density was lower than we're used to now. And that's why there was plenty of room for all. For shenanigans. Whatever kind of dance they're referring. But my God. And like, when, so Zach from the singer, Stricken was one of the singers that fight everyone. So when fight everyone started, it was like, you got the Stricken guy? Yeah. Ha ha ha ha. Yeah, it was. So what was fun about that band and continued to be fun as we then changed our name to Thriller and got a different singer as Zach left to eventually be in fight everyone. We got a gentleman named Kevin. Michael. Oh. Ha ha ha. We actually, we like made all that dance music ourselves. Like, you know what I'm saying? It was a sense of like, it was all pedals and like we didn't have keyboards or anything like that. It was all like. Was it a drum machine, program drums? No. The drummer would play. Yeah, we just literally went into the first. Practical effects. Wow. Practical effects. Yeah, movie magic baby, Burbank. Ha ha ha. That's how we do it, dude. Ha ha ha. Stricken. Wow. Go back and listen to Stricken. Oh, it's crazy. And now let me ask you, where are you getting as Stricken? Straight up. Where are you getting them? Where's the inspiration for that? We, the dude who played bass in the band, it's Brian Grover. He's the one who went into being in horse the band. Oh, okay. He and I had this vision of being like, yo, let's combine like, yeah. The metal core of the day, we love to converge, they owe fucking earth crisis, any of that sort of stuff. Breakdown-y stuff. We also love the faint. And we're like, if we can just combine the faint with this, we will be extremely unique in what we're doing. It's the scientists in the lab not considering whether or not they should. Right. They can. Yeah. Oppenheim. You know, the vial spilled and a gremlin was blown. Truthfully, truthfully, truthfully. And like, I haven't listened to those songs in definitely 20 plus years, but like, it's definition parkour. Like it's just every song is five and a half minutes long. You're like, what are we doing? It's just part, the part, the part. So how does this all, cause thriller's kind of right before Two Shade and More. It was like a year difference. Really, yeah. What was the time we were talking about? I think thriller, cause thriller was my first touring, real touring experience, like playing in bands, you know, like not doing merch kind of a thing. And that was the most important, like boot camp situation of all time. I mean, it was the classic tale of like booking tours through Myspace kind of a thing. We historically did not play a major city where, you know, you talk to someone and they're like, oh shit, dude, you're coming to Oregon. Where's your show in Portland? You're like, nah, brother, but you, you G. Yeah. Like, oh, you guys are, damn, you guys are playing Boise? Nah, man, Twin Falls. Ah, you know, like. Sleeping on the floors of the show going on, wasn't it? Showing up, show's not happening. Like all, just everything that could have gone wrong, but also the classic, all of my best stories are from that. And. Truly the salad days, like the times that you don't think are that great that are just priceless. And most importantly, we had no business touring. No, like we didn't, we weren't on a label. We just thought we should because of the amount of like plays we had on Myspace. That's how that was. You were huge in Santa Clarita. We could crush it at. Right near Magic Mountain, you guys were one of the biggest fans. Yeah, tour out to maybe Thousand Oaks to, you know, play Kung Fu Corner. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. But yeah, if we tried to play LA proper, like if we tried to play like the smell, no one's going to that. I might have seen you at like the knitting factory or something, but I for sure actually, I think I saw Thriller in like New Hall. Some real New Hall age. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was that venue that was out there for a minute. Which was sick. Yeah. Like one of Touche's first shows was there. And it was us trash talk, Trapped Under Rice. Trapped Under Rice is great. Great show. Yeah, Internal Affairs. Yeah, I was there. Yeah, we were first of nine. Thriller? No, no, no. This was Touche. Okay, we moved in. Let's talk about the beginning of Touche at Mourney. How do you meet Nick Clayton, who else was in the band at the time? At that time, a gentleman named Tyson, original guitar player, and a gentleman named Zee who played drums originally. Jeremy's up next, his name was Jeremy, went by Zee. Yeah, and Nick played bass. Didn't play guitar. So Clayton was on guitar, Tyson was on guitar, Zee vocals, Zee on drums. It was a fun situation because, so I had left Thriller. It was just very clear that it was time to go, kind of a situation. And I'd always, so it, kind of fun. We toured with a band called I Am The Ocean. They were from Salt Lake City. And the most like road dog band of all time. We're like literally like a week before this tour we were gonna do together was starting. Their singer couldn't go anymore. They're like, we'll still do it. And they just played instrumental. They said, fuck it. Just like that much loving being on the road kind of guys. To them, they were like, if there are six people there, it's a good show. Like that was their mentality. Just true heads, right? Different time, you know? So when they didn't have a singer, they had one song that was like super short and very aggressive. And I was like, can I try singing it? And there's a video of it somewhere. I just felt exhilarated doing it. And I think hearing that voice come out, all of that sort of stuff, which I didn't know would happen. I was just like, I'm just gonna yell and see what happens. It gave me just like the sort of Russian excitement. So I just started, I wanted to just sort of chase that. So I left Thriller and then within four months, I probably put Tushae together. It was very fast. Yeah, so I met our original guitar player Tyson at a party and we had a funny, it's connection where we both, he and I both had girlfriends, long distance girlfriends that lived in Louisiana at one point. Oh wow. And they were once best friends. And then once we started dating, they weren't friends anymore. So I would always hear about Tyson and he would always hear about me, but we never met, right? And it was like, holy shit, you're the guy. And one night I'm at a party and like a little small get together and I'm in a standing circle and I hear that this guy's name is Tyson. And I just said, are you Tyson White? And he goes, are you Jeremy Bum? And I said, do you wanna go talk about Louisiana and on the front porch? Holy shit. And we went out there and just instantly became friends. Just like one of the fastest friendships in my life. And so we'd get around to hanging out all the time and he would just kind of mess around on his, this acoustic that was laying around his house and he would play these really like dissonant, like just uncomfortably melodic chords all the time. And I'm like, what is that? And he had never played guitar out of an amp before, never been in a band, nothing. And I was like, we should start a band. So he used all of my stuff from Thriller when the band started. I was just like, I used to have to set up his amp like the whole nine and Nick's best friend is man named Dewey. I don't know if you ever knew Dewey, but he played in a band with Dewey called Tiptoe Charlies, which was a big cobalt band. So I wanna- They're right next to the Sheds all the time. All the time. Yeah, yeah. So I hit up Dewey to play bass. And Nick said, there's no way Dewey's going to that, I'll do it. So Nick grabbed his bass and came to band practice. So that's how Nick joined. Z was just someone who played, Daniel Poliato I mentioned is still to this day like one of the most incredible drummers of all time. He has a swagger to him, which is just like undeniable. Z was basically the baby version of Daniel because he learned everything there is to know about drums from Daniel. So we were like, we can't get Daniel, let's get Z. So like the drumming difference on like Dead Horse and the demo, wildly different from Elliot. Elliot brought just like insane energy to him. And like you could tell like a kid who listens to like Charles Bronson and all that sort of stuff. He's blasting like there's no tomorrow. Absolutely. So like we every, and then Clayton was the last one to join. And but what was cool is like, not everybody knew each other. It was kind of like getting a bunch of almost kind of strangers in a room to be like, let's see what comes out. Yeah. What's that? It's like the real world. Yeah. I don't really know anybody else in the band except for Clayton. Yeah. Who is unbelievable. He's great. I can't believe Clayton. Yeah. Pardon this interruption. Before we get back to this long awaited episode with my good friend, Jeremy Bollem, we got to talk to you about two real quick things that made this episode possible. That's right. We do, what do we have first? Well, first off, there's something that makes every day possible for us though. And that is a G1. You're absolutely right, Colin. Tell the people how we both start, both of our days, every single day. One little scoop of this beautiful green powder that now comes in multiple flavors, all of which you can sample for free if you order the welcome kit at drinkag1.com slash hard lore. We never had a winter slump because we've been drinking AG1 this whole time. AG1 is a daily health drink clinically shown to support gut health and fill in common nutritional gaps. With more than 75 ingredients, including five clinically studied probiotic strains, AG1 completely replaces the need for a daily multivitamin, probiotics, and more. That's right. It eliminates the need to juggle various pills and supplements and all this stuff. You just got one little packet about this size. How do we take it, Colin? One little scoop of cold water, done. Shake it up, suck it down, done. Energy, immune health, gut health. And boy, did we need better gut health before AG1 walked in and sprinkled green all over our lives. Drinkag1.com slash hard lore right now, you're gonna get the free welcome kit, including the canister, the bottle, a year's supply of vitamin D and K drops, and again, the flavor sampler. Check it out, let us know, live a better life. This episode is also brought to you by Louder Than Life Festival, the biggest rock, metal, hardcore, punk music festival in the world ever, maybe? We were talking about it right before we started shooting and this is a crazy lineup. You got Danzig, you got Megadeth, you got Mychem, you got Sublime, you got Tool, you got Danny Elfman. It sounds made up. Yes, it sounds like one of those drums. Iron Maiden, Alice Cooper, Anthrax, Twishing Tongues. Blood for blood, agnostic front, Mad Ball, Tsunami, Angel Dust, Haywire. If you listen to the show, there's like 30 bands you'll probably want to see. And hey, we'll be there the whole time. So go to Louderthanlifefestival.com, pick up a weekend pass, pick up a camping pass. You can camp there. They got all kinds of stuff. They have vendors and food, they have roller coasters. What? Yeah, because it was in Kentucky Kingdom, which is like kind of their six flags. So there's all kinds of stuff to do there. I'll be riding. Unless I say more, I'll be riding. Okay, so go to Louderthanlifefestival.com, join us there, go see your whole iPod classic in one lineup for the first time ever. That's right, it is September 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20 of 2026. Later this year, we can't wait. My birthday's the next day, so get a pass and then bring me something back to the episode. Okay, so tell me about putting this demo together. Okay. The TA record is just called now, right? Just like, listen, it's like self-titled. Something like that, sure. Yeah, so, I mean, for the longest time, and honestly still to this day, our goals as a band kind of are the same, which is put out as many cool things on vinyl as possible, play as many cool shows as possible. Those are the only things we cared about. I love it. Nick having a huge art background was so instrumental and continues to be instrumental. He was going to Cal Arts at the time, ended up graduating, he's had an insanely amazing career, it just gets crazier and crazier every day. Well, do you think the Sunbather art was the turning point for him? I think that was when I was like, yeah, I do think he's wild. But at that point, he'd already done covers for Britney Spears and Pink and Katy Perry. It's like, so he was already, but he was working under a company. At that point, he hadn't gone fully independent, but I think within our world. But I mean, that Sunbather cover ended up getting on the Apple iPhone thing. It was on the front door, it was on the window of the store. Yeah, so he also, going to Cal Arts at the time, had all this cool stuff at his disposal, screen printing rooms and all sorts of stuff. So he and I just kind of clicked pretty quickly about that stuff. The Touche demo originally came in a DVD case that is all silk screen, full booklet, this whole insane thing. And I said vinyl was always the goal. I knew Chris Hansen who ran Chris, or who ran a- Dateline NBC. Dateline NBC. I was like, there's no way to say that name without that joke coming directly after. As much as you pause. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You made me do it. I made you do it. He ran No Sleep Records. Oh yeah. And he was working, I knew him because he worked in Revelation. He like worked in the warehouse at Rev. And I knew he started this label. It was super new at the time. And I kind of was like, you know, I bet that guy will pay for it. Kind of a deal. So, and he was always nice and up. So I hit up Chris and was like, hey man, I got this band. Would you maybe put this out? And he was like, yeah, I'm down. And at that same time, he had just put out the first lot of speed CD. And also like the Wonder Years, like a CD for the Wonder Years or something like that. So he was starting to like get stuff that would eventually make his label much bigger and everything else. But he only ended up doing a couple of seven inches with us like splits and stuff like that. Like we did a lot of speed split. And I think that might actually be it with him. Oh, and a casket lottery split. But I mean, once that happened, it was just kind of weird off and running with wanting to put out stuff. Yeah man, it seems like you kind of figured out who you were right away. Like honestly, it was on the demo. Yeah. And like you're still playing that, right? Yeah. You have to. Yeah, I have to. It's a good song. Thankfully we don't hate the song. No, it's great. Like I... Fortunate. You know? And it's like it doesn't not fit with what you're doing today. And that's hard to say for all the bands. It's so funny. There's got, when Harms, were you original Harmsway? Original member, right? When you guys started, are there things in the early catalog that you're like, oh that's so clearly, we were directly ripping this thing off. Yeah, we played four of them last night. They did, it was awesome. Yeah, of course. Because you don't even expect people to hear it. Ever hear it. Let alone know where you're getting it from. We, there are things like in some of those early songs that I go, yeah that's that. Yeah, that's that. It's like, we, a show that we played last, the other year was, we got to play with Page 99, which is like one of the biggest influences to our band or whatever. But in Honestly, the whole last part is the biggest Page 99 song. And I was like, I just yelled at that. I was like, we're talking this from Page 99? I was like. You know what I'm saying? It's like so clearly us trying to do a part like that. I mean the opening to Honestly also is converged. Bam, bam, bam, take a little, bam, bam. Oh wow. It's from fucking, it's off, you feel me? Yeah, yeah, it's like, we didn't know, we were just kind of playing stuff that we liked, but we weren't, you know, you hear it later and you're like, oh shit. That's cool dude. We must wear what we love on our sleeves. Absolutely. Because then when people discover that, they go back and they find things. That leads to. And Jake's been able to make a bunch of money on this. Exactly. In many ways. In many ways. To the beat of a Dead Horse. debut LP. Fully realized version of the band. I mean, the last record you've done, there's some changes. You've experimented, you've grown. But like, you're to Shamari here, first LP. What year is this? 2009. 2009. This is when I learned all these songs and the first record. Because we talked about me being in the band. Yes. Pretty cool. Yeah. I don't remember what happened with that. I think you found Elliot. Oh. I think it was, so I remember it was right before Sound & Fury 2009. Yeah. I was about to graduate high school. I was 17. And it was like, you were like, just learn. Here's our demo, here's our new thing. You sent it to me early. Learn this. And like, I don't hit, let us know if you wanna do it. And I think Elliot was just like, right then. And like, he's so the guy. There's a great video of us playing Cal U where Alice, where you sing the Jeff Rickley part. Do we have a clip? Do we have a clip? We do have a clip, here it is. That's right. Wow. This is better. I can't believe those. That part rules. So skinny, so little. I know, it was so very skinny. Dude, that's so cool. I think it's still on the internet. It is, for sure. So, I don't know how much we would have maybe talked about it, but the band had broken up. Oh. That's not, it's like, we've talked about it a little bit. Here and there, I think maybe when we were doing the anniversary Dead Horse stuff, maybe we talked a little bit more about it, but Z wanted to quit. Z quit. And if you look at the, even the liner notes on Dead Horse, it's the four of us. And then it says drums on this album by a germ. Cause he was like, I don't wanna be in this anymore. Yeah. Like, I'm out. I checked on Discogs today and there's no credit for drums. So we were like, fuck. In our mindset, we were just like, well, he's such an important part of this band. We can't be a band without him. And then we were like, well, we wrote all these songs. We like, let's just, at least just go record them. So we have them. That was the mindset. We didn't have a record deal, nothing. So we were like, let's just go record them. And then this, I think is who I am at my court, where I was like, well, I should probably, I mean, if I have the ability to get some cool people to sing on this too. Oh yeah. So I asked Jeff Rickley from Thursday, who's like, you know, an older brother to me in so many ways. And the part rules. And then also Jeff Eaton from Modern Life is War had just moved to California. I'd seen him at shows and didn't know him, kind of befriended him and then just said to my master, he was like, would you sing on my dumb bands thing? And he was like, sure. And he showed up and his first time raising his voice since the last Modern Life is War show was like in that room and just being able to witness that and be like, this is fucking sick. The shame of the band's breaking up, but thanks for doing it. Totally. And then, but it was Jeff Eaton who said, wait, so you guys are breaking up and we're like, why? And he's like, and we told him and he goes, fucking get another drummer. Yeah. It was like as if we never considered it. We're like, maybe we, yeah, truthfully. So we had a couple fill ins and like, we had two different people played short West Coast tours. But then yeah. And so what happened, which I'm sure when we talked was, I was at a barbecue at 6131, who ended up putting out the first record. Also just fun, small world situation. So the singer of Taken, Ray Harkins, who does 100 Words or Less Podcasts, his roommate, Joey Cahill, who runs 6131 Records, he and I get extremely close and he's the one who I was like, hey, I guess we're gonna stay together. Would you put this out? And he was like, yeah. Love it. He's incredible. Wow. Nice guy. Great guy. So, wanna hear it records? Wanna hear it records. Wanna hear it records? The town of Massachusetts. Check it out. Great store, never been. It's a great store. Love the Instagram. Great Instagram, yeah, that's right. Check it out. So, at a barbecue at 6131, our drummer who's supposed to be filling in for where we get an offer to go on tour, opening for Thursday. First of four, great, 150 bucks a night, let's go. 2009, 10, that's some good money. That's some good money. That was Union RIP standard. That was straight on. Yeah, yeah, has that been talked about on this show? Oh yeah. How no money existed until like six years ago? But no one also complained. Our first real tour was one of four free Acacia Train. We got 150 bucks a night for five weeks. It's absolutely right. And we were happy to do it. Oh yeah. And then when you break 100 and merch, it's like we did it. Dude, that was the true milestone. It was like $120. Cracked it down. I have a rant I'm gonna go on in a second about shirt prices. Absolutely, I would love to talk about that. So, we get this offer to open for Thursday and then we book an entire US tour because we're only on Seattle. I believe Seattle or like Portland down to Houston. And then we're like, let's just do the whole rest of the US. Finish the loop. I book it on the Bridge Nine board. Fuck yeah. So, I literally put up the dates that who can help me out and got the whole thing booked on the B9 board. Wow. And so, we're like, fuck, our drummer can't do it. All of a sudden he got in trouble. We're like, we can't, fuck, he can't do this tour. I'm at a barbecue, Sam Bosson is there. One of the greatest. Front of the show. One of the greatest front of the show. Front of all, really. Yeah, front of all. He was in trash talk and time. He also filled in for us last year, which was amazing to have happened. So, I was like, do you know anybody who plays drums? And he goes, calls Elliot. He and Elliot, friends from the Aquabats message board. They is- Whoa. Yeah, and Elliot drops out of college, learns our songs on the drive down, comes to practice, plays them eight times faster. We say this is the fucking guy. And Mac just went, fuck. And my God dude, is he the guy? Yeah. Can you tell me the Elliot terminator too, Lore? Yeah, is this where we reveal the Nepo baby aspect of it? If you want. Yeah, I mean, obviously he's gained nothing from that in music whatsoever. He's not better at drumming because of James Cameron, you know? Elliot has the coolest parents, because Elliot's dad, Paul Babin Sr. Elliot's real name is Paul, but he just goes by Elliot. I don't know him, so I'm learning it at all. Yeah. I didn't even know his name was Elliot. Paul Babin Sr. voted People Magazine's Sexiest Cameraman. Is that true? Oh, hell yeah. It's true. Very nice. He was a camera operator on Terminator 2. And Elliot was pretty new to the world at that point. Brand new baby. And there's like the scene where they're shooting on the overpass in the Elie River. It's over the basin? Yeah. And they literally had the helicopter filming go under it. And Elliot's dad was like, I got a new porn. I literally can't do this. And James Cameron said, I'll do it. Grab the camera and did it. Legend. And like it's legendary in movies that James Cameron shot for himself. And he did it because of Elliot. Yeah. Isn't that sick? Who is the pilot? James Cameron. It's like this. But if you look at his dad's IMDB, he's got so many bangers. Like so many bangers. And he's worked with so many. There's a few like worked with some of the most masterful directors, but on that movie? Yeah, sure. Like he did Francis Ford Coppola on Jack. You know? Jack's pretty good. Which Elliot is in. Hey. There's like a scene in a doctor's office. And he got to be an extra. He's just like in a pediatrician's office or something like that. But what do you think? I know you. T-shirt prices. Yeah. OK. T-shirt prices. Yeah. Follow me here. Yeah, I'm good. The arc of a hardcore band can be measured in the prices of their t-shirts. When you start, eight or 10 bucks. Now? Hold on. OK. I'm just saying, when you start as a band, eight or 10 bucks, right? They're probably rolled masking tape. Oh, I see. I see. Yeah. Yeah. They're printed on. Don't roll. They're printed on the worst blanks. The worst blanks. Single sided, single color. Yeah, black shirt. Yeah. Stack them. The thickest white. The thickest white ink of your life. Uh-oh. Yeah. Right. But still. You're new. You need them. This is what you're doing. You need them. Right? Eventually, you're like, I think we got to do 12 guys. I think we got to do 12. So you start selling for 12 bucks, right? And then you're at the counter, and you're like, or you're dealing with it, and you're like, fuck man, one. Singles. Singles, it sucks. And it's like before anyone would tip you anyway. So like those tips are going wet. You know, you're just dealing with that. And then eventually, you're like, you're about three years in, four years in, and you're like, I think we can do 15. We're doing multiple colors now. Let's do 15. Yeah. Should we do 15? Let's do 15. And then you're doing 15. And you're like, feeling maybe a little guilty about it, that punk guilt is starting to be like, to 15? All our t-shirts, right? And then you start going on tour. And you have to all of a sudden price match, or gas. And you're like, fuck, are we doing $20 t-shirts, guys? We really are. Guess we're doing $20 t-shirts. And eventually, here we are now. 30. Something like that, right? Here's the thing. Here's the phenomenon. Tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me. The consumer, the people who want to support you, have never batted it nice since the beginning. And that is a miracle. But you know who has made my eyes bat is printers. The cost of printing is astronomically higher. Absolutely. You could charge $10 for a shirt because it was $2, $3, $4 to make. But still, even when t-shirts were $7, we were definitely still selling them for $10. Yeah. And that's like, like. And it's the punk rock guilt of being like, I know what this costs, and we can't charge that much, kind of a thing. But so many of us have discounted. People just really want to support your print. For sure. You know, they're happy to pay it. They're happy to pay it. But now, a shirt selling for $30 now is probably the equivalent to a 2009 shirt being $10. Or legitimately like $12 to $15. Yeah. Yeah, they were $15. They were $5 to print, and we sold them for $10. Absolutely. Hellfish, baby. Oh, lord. Oh, my god. Well, now to a hat that Hellfish made. The other thing is back then, the blank no one cared about. No. None of us thought twice. All style came and changed the conversation. Gilded in heavy, gilded in cotton. I would have taken it all. Bella canvas. You know, like nobody gave a shit about. Total was a Tull-X? That one, too. Tull-Tex? Total was a Tull-Tex. I tried to like that for a second. No one gave, but we didn't give a shit. No. This one's weird. And now the comfort colors are the most expensive running game. Yeah, and everybody won't buy it unless it's on it. So we kind of created a monster. We didn't, yeah. It's all our fault. Sorry for the diversion stuff. No, no, no. This is, we like that. The people need to hear it. And it is fair, and I don't blame printers, because this stuff costs money and they have a lot of employees. Yeah, labor costs, everything costs. It's a business. Shipping costs, everything. You can't buy, you know, you can't order one thing of black ink. You got to get them in bulk. There's all kinds of shit. And you get what you pay for, you know? You want a printer to go above and beyond, you're going to... So on to the beat of that horse, there's a lyric that I wonder if, you know, well, let's just get to it. And I'm sure you're... I'll go to Morrissey to answer my questions, because Ian Curtis has left me hanging. Yeah. I would say Morrissey has left you hanging as well. Yeah. As a guy. So starting around 20... Oh, I don't know. I don't want someone to check a YouTube video. No worries. I inevitably was like, I'm changing these lyrics. And we re-recorded the record, I changed the lyrics. Who'd you change it to? I'll go to El Cohen to answer your questions. And then I say, because Ian Curtis has died. Because I was like, it's kind of a shitty thing to say about... I love you, Hank. I see. Yeah, like when you're in 2008, I'm like, oh, I'm fucking clever. Like how clever I am. It is clever. It's clear. Sure. But I was like, I think as you get older, you deal with a lot of friends and you lose your friends. You're like, yeah, it's not probably something to make a joke about. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I've softened. And look, you know, Morrissey may be politically, personally, all the least. Spiritually. Spiritually, like the worst guy ever. Yeah. Couple tracks. No less than a thousand bangers. Oh my god, yeah. 100%. It's a deep chain, how many bangers he has. Yeah, I just don't know that I need him to answer. No, you don't. No. The questions have been answered and we're not interested. And that, I don't know how many people realize that that song title is a Smith's reference. What's the title? And now it's happening in mind. You're awesome. Morrissey, not so much. Tell me about the decision to document every Tushae Moria show. You're the only person I know who's done that. We, so when I talk about my relationship with Steinhardt is that we, one of the things we very much bond on is like wanting to archive everything. So we even put out like an art book a couple years back where it has every shirt we've ever printed in there. Oh, that's so cool. It has, yeah. So we always kept a list of every single show we've ever played. And yeah, I still update it on the website to this day. And call that foresight. And lower sight. And also been updating and working on now. We even have like a discography page on our website, which has shows all the variants, all the breakdowns, like the matrix numbers, the barcodes, the it's real. But yeah, that's real guy who works the counter at Amoeba type thing. Yeah, I mean, there's so many. What we lack in like, in like, lots of demo recordings and like that sort of stuff. I feel like we make up for it like the amount of physical art stuff. Like we have all of these things like still like laying around. Yeah, I would rather have that. Tell me about we were recording the whole record in 2022. What was that? What was the decision there? It was so it's so funny where we were like, oh. Sorry, I don't know if you do you work with Alex Estrada? No. OK. We recorded that record with our very dear friend Alex Estrada. I considered him a six number of Touche in the sense of every album we do, we record with him first. We go to him, record an entire album and then do all the pre-pro and then go record it elsewhere. He's so benefit. He's he's done so much to help me in so many ways. But we went to him and we're like, yo, we kind of want to remix and rematch to that record. Do you think that's possible? And he goes, I totally did that shit like like six months later. Are you kidding me? Like, I don't have that. I don't have that. Like, he was he was he was the guy to make your demo or album for $200. Sure. You know, so like he was just recording Crustpunk Band after Beatdown Band after Mariachi Band. Like you name it, you go to Alex. He'll get you in and out within, you know, for an album in two days. Kind of a guy. So he's like, he didn't think we were going to stick together. So he ended up having to get rid of that stuff. So we're like, well, we can't remix and remaster it. We got two new members that are playing have been playing those songs for the last X amount of years. Like, let's just go do it again. Do it. And I can fix all my grammar, which I did. Yeah. And now Ian Curtis is just dead. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Leonard Cohen, baby. R.P. man. You want it darker? Banger. R.P. When do you feel a shift for Tushar Mori in terms of just like audience growth? Definitely parting the sea, like 100% that record. It was, it was, you know, a lightning. And we felt like it was like a lightning in a bottle sort of situation where we placed on a ferry 2009 and we could not have felt less welcome. Really? And that, oh yeah. Oh yeah. It was, this was a funny thing because I remember, I remember getting some clarity on this where it was like the state we played the small stage. Yeah. And there was no real runtime. It was just like runtime kind of a deal. We went up there. We were super rushed. And the person who was running the stage, I think we, we played like a quarter of our set or whatever. And he's like, you guys are done. Like, you got like wrap it up, like just kicked us off super, even though as soon as we started, all of a sudden all the, all the, I think all of the, you know, maybe outlier kids, outsider kids came up and I was so bummed I wasn't playing. I was like, oh, but he was so damn, but that wasn't Elliott even. That was one of the villains. Really? That was a guy named Alex Soniaute who played. I was too young. Yeah. In 2009 to cross mixing with heavier stuff and hardcore and less more adjacent stuff. Yeah. What wasn't really happening. You were very weird on that. Yeah. It was like Blackbreath and COA on that stage after you. After us was, I think retaliate play there. It was unbelievable. I think whoever it was maybe started the set by saying whatever the fuck that was one of those situations, which respectfully, I get it. Sure. But it's funny getting kind of like, all right guys, wrap whatever. It was Andy Rice. And Andy Rice ended up telling me later. He's like, yeah, it was me. Like, yeah. I just wanted to kick you guys off. I was just like, thanks, brother. Thanks, man. But we still felt that we had a sick show. That was great. Yeah. I was like, whoa, like really just like a, wow, this is different. And we go to the merch table, up walks to me, Trey McCarthy says, hey, he instantly very ballbusty because Dead Horse was put out by 6131 90%, 10% put out by collect records, which is Jeff Rickley's label thing. So he was affiliated. His role was mostly like just kind of helping our main get out there. So I instantly also learned how ballbusty Trey McCarthy is because he comes up to me and he goes, how do I get your records in my web store without dealing with famous people? Wow. Or it's like something to that effect. And I was like, it's the 6131 kind of a thing. And he was like, you guys are good. And then within, yeah, we had a moment where we were trying to decide whether we were going to do Death Wish, Bridge Nine or Equal Vision. And we went with Death Wish. I have in my notes here, were you a Trey band or a Jake band? And you just answered it. Trey band. Jake band. Jake band. Yeah. Yeah. Partying to see between brightness and me. Let's talk about it. Yeah. What were the big inspirations for this record musically and personally? So Nick has now moved to guitar. So we're bringing in Nick influence. And it's important to say that Nick is not a hardcore kid. Nick likes AFI. He likes the nerve agents. Respect. He likes Converge. Might be it. It's like a little bit of a hardcore kid. I could get him in them. But he's like, he loves pop music. He loves, you know, like he's, he's so, oh, but importantly, he also likes Boy Sets Fire. So a lot of them, a lot of guitar playing from him is AFI and Boy Sets Fire. That makes a total sense. Yeah. So that's, that's where he's pulling from. Which, which that starts to change things, change sort of the sound altogether. He's pulling from the two bands similar that he likes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a boss baby. Yeah. And then we, so something I think kind of also explains kind of who we are, where it was like, OK, you guys signed a death wish. Shirley Kurt's going to do your record. Surely Jake's going to do your art. And we said, Nick's going to do our art. And we're going to go to Kansas and record this with the guy who did the Get Up Kids records and the Coalesce records and the Casculatory records. Like we want to have that sort of like melodic Kansas sound and we'll do that. So we, yeah, we did the record in like three days or something. I think it was three days. Yeah. And what comes to mind when I bring this record up to you emotionally? That was that record to me was your classic like struggles of being away from home. OK. Like that's what that album is. Like each record has, like, especially in retrospect, I can look at certain records like Dead Horse to Me was me saying, look at all these worries, concerns, stresses, depressions that I have, but I'm not doing anything about it. I'm just complaining about it. So I'm beating a dead horse. Part of the sea was, yeah, being away from home, it's hard enough to be away from my family. I don't feel good enough. Like I don't feel like I could put a loved one, like a like a girlfriend or something like that through some through something like that. So like all of those sort of stresses and the depression that can come from that, all that sort of thing. So yeah, I look at that record as like a, you know, learning to exist on the road. While also loving being on the road. Sure. Like I don't I'm to this day, I don't get. I don't have a hard time touring. Like I could be on the guy you could put me on tour for a year and I won't complain. But what I had a hard time with was what it was doing to the people. Sure. That's the hardest part. Yeah. So it wasn't like, man, I wish I was home. It was, man, I hate that that's how I'm making people feel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is also the first record you're like intentionally writing to be an album, to be an album. Yeah. Like, OK, the band's not breaking up and we're signed to Deathwish and we have money to do this at a crazy place wherever we want and do whatever we want. Yeah. And it turns into this, this like new chapter for your band. Yeah. Are you a lyrics first guy? Like are you writing poetry and fitting it into music? The music informs the lyrics. Always. Yeah. Yeah. And there was like one song in that record that I was like still writing in the like apartment above, just being like, it's the song condolences, which yeah, that makes sense to me that that's the one that it was. But yeah, I'm tracking that entire record and in tracking all the vocals. One song into the next one. I can hear my headache. Isn't that the worst? I can like when I when I have had to listen to that record back, I'm like, Oh, like I hear how much pain I'm in. Wow. Yeah. So does that process change now? Oh yeah. Like once once all of a sudden it became like, oh, I don't have to do this. All like we can split this up and divide it up or whatever. With the following record, there was a funny situation where I recorded the entire album and I did it in a way that was ended up being the wrong way where we recorded it with a gentleman named Brad Wood. This is a survive by Brad Wood. Absolute legend. One of the best in the world. Coolest guy did amazing. Has done so many amazing records. Yeah. Sunday Day records far. Me without you. So much stuff. Let's fair for Rook Assault. Smashing pumpkins. Yeah, that's insane. He's the best. But so we're getting to know each other and he's like, he's like, yo, is there anything about your, you know, doing vocals that you would ever want to try? And I was like, I feel like I just want to, when I hear it, when I hear a studio recording and then I hear myself on tour or something like that, it feels like it's totally different things. And he's like, what do you think it is? I'm like, just handheld. So I like, so I record the entire record with an SM 58 and another mic strapped to the top and it's through like this crazy. No, no, no, it was through this, this weird head that he, I think if I'm, he'll probably, he might watch this and be like, you got this so wrong. But it was like through an amp that was used in his family's like funeral home. And that immediately to me was like, yeah, we're doing that. It's like, that's so my shit. Let's go. Wow. So then we record the record, mix the record, we get the, we get the, you know, I send it to Trey and I'm listening to it going, I don't know if there's clarity in my vocals. Like I'm someone you can like usually make out every word I'm saying. I don't know that I can feel that. So I'm starting to get nervous, but no one's talking about it. I send it to Trey and I'm like, Trey, I'm kind of concerned about the vocals and his response was, oh, so we can talk about your vocals. So I had to go back and re-record the, re-record the entire record and probably like two days. But I'm so happy that I did. Okay. Yeah. So part of your C is survived by how much does touring change for Tushae? Uh, it becomes nonstop. Yeah. Nonstop. Like those, you could see like when you look at the archive, like every year we're playing 200 shows, probably 200 plus shows, maybe. We just, we were the band that refused to have a day off. If there was a day off on the tour, we would post on Twitter saying, whose house can we play tonight? We would show up and play a house. Like we just did not know how to not play a show. It was like, it was simultaneously the most exciting thing. And also that's gas in the tank. 100% of course. So that was always kind of the drive, you know, didn't want to be home. Just wanted to keep going. And it's like, and I know for me that the only reason I'm taking breaks is cause my voice is fucked up. Yeah. You're talking about how you feel when your voice is fucked up. So respect. In our defense too, our sets were like 30 minutes long. Wow. Each 25 minutes long, you know what I'm saying? So it's a big one for some people. Yeah. Uh, first, first to say European tour. Yeah. Walk me through it. What's your first experience like? Oh my God, it was brutal. Yeah, just winter, you know. Was it that one or was where you did it before? Yeah, it was that one. It was that one. That horse was so cold. That was a tour where I could probably speak. It was probably the same to you because we were there at the exact same time where every show in like Germany, central, more central northern Europe, the promoter would be like, oh yeah, it's snowing. So wouldn't expect a lot of people to come. Meanwhile, this is a place that boasts about having like robust public transit. Yeah. Yeah, there's a way to get everywhere. And sure enough, it would snow and just nobody. It was a rough or there's a soccer game on. Yeah, not in the winter. And it was also it was also like we were supposed to do it with a known band. And then all of a sudden it became like, oh, no, you're going to go with this band from Germany, who's also going to drive you. Lovely guys, great, great, great guys and everything. All respect to them. But it was one of those things where it was just like everything kept changing very last minute. So yeah, it was it was tough. It was a tough one. Yeah. Do you remember any distinct German compliments you got? Funny enough, I think I was so ready for it to happen, but also no one gave a shit about us yet. So like there wasn't much to critique just yet. Sure. I do have my all time favorite. Please, please. Situation, which was we got to open for rise against in fucking stadiums, like arenas, right? Not stadiums, arenas. And that was like one of the situations where like we have to do this, of course. Right. So we're first of three in an arena, you know, and we played. It was in Prague and we were opening with a song called Gravity metaphorically, which ended up on the split seven inch with pianos become the teeth. But it was before we had recorded it or like it hadn't come out yet. But at that point, it was our longest song. I think it had broke two minutes. Congrats. You know, like one of those. Finally, yeah. I think it was might have almost hit three, maybe it hit three marathon. Yeah. But it starts with like a like a like it starts with like a four tom punk beat. And we're like rise against. Yeah, song, you know, one in this fucking arena knows who we are. Got to play it. Yeah, let's just start with the new song, right? So we're starting that show, you know, whatever. So I'm I walk to the merch table that she was so it's like we're playing stadiums of like 12,000 people and we're selling like 100 euros and merch. Oh, yeah. And then and then we're going to play in 100 cab venue and selling like 12. For us. Yeah, it's funny how that works out. But we I'm at the merch table. This guy comes up and he just he does one of these. He goes like that. Looking at everything because he played a new song tonight. And I said, yeah, yeah, we did. Yeah. And he goes, it was long. And I said, yeah, it's in fact our longest song, though, I think we've written at this point and then he just keeps looking. He goes. Wasn't good. Walked away. One good. So not only did he know. Not only does he extensively know your catalog. Was a fan of the band. And that was the one interaction with the singer of a band he likes. He'll ever have. Yeah. And I was just like to hope that he maybe bought that ticket for like, you know, a lot. Yeah. First three and just was so disappointed by that new song that he had to come along. It wasn't good. Wasn't good. It just wasn't good and just walked away. Didn't buy something. Thanks. And he is survived by songs that you're particularly proud of. And a harbors like a is that a set staple because it's a banger. We we from that record, we don't play a lot of that. That's that's for us. That's the one for us, where we we all have. We it was a symptom of. Sort of the this this sophomore slump thing, even though it was our third record theoretically, but like it felt like really the follow up record. Right. Um, and I think. I fucked up by not being vocally ready. Like I was still writing almost the entire thing in the studio out by the patio, stressing out every day, not feeling good about what I was doing. And then the guys in my band talk about it by saying that they were nervous themselves, that they were overplaying. So it's like, I think all of us were just a bit in our head. So I am always so appreciative when I'll meet someone who says, oh, that's my record or something like that. You know, like when you hear though, when you hear people be like fight or debate about that stuff and I'm just like, that's awesome. I'm so happy to hear that. Cause for us, we're just like, um, that's the one you made it through. Totally. Okay. Yeah. And, and, you know, and I'm not saying this as like some sort of bragging right, but it was to our true amazement where it was our first time that like pitchfork covered us and pitchfork gave us, gave it like an eight. Wow. And we were just like, what? This one. Like, like we were like, we're about to lose all of our fans. Like that, at least that's how I felt. And so all of a sudden it did okay. Like critically. And that was our first time really getting any sort of critical response like that. And then, um, yeah, just over time set, you know, we make more records and it's slowly, but surely we're playing less and less off of it. Yeah. Yeah. But to answer your question, the, the last song in the record, the title track song is survived by, I think I would, if I had to put together, like what I think are the five best touche songs, it would be in the top five. There you go. Yeah. All right. Here we go. Touche Mare, stage four. Yeah. This beautiful expression of grief for your late mother. Thank you. Um, and you know, that's, that's one thing that every human being will experience at some point. Totally. And yet you're putting the most personal thing you've probably ever experienced in your life into this sonic presentation for everyone to hear. Yeah. And it becomes your biggest record. And the thing that people connect with more than anything, how does that feel to, I mean, that exists for your mom. Yeah. Who, as we've talked about before, is like such an important person in your life, such an important part of your story. Yeah. Let's talk about this record. Sure. Yeah. Um, it's interesting because we're about to start doing a lot of, you know, lead up for, we're playing the album in full this year, um, in multiple places all around the world. And we're talking about like what to do to kind of promote it and things like that. And one of the things, one of the band members asked us was like, you know, we'll maybe do a thing where we talk about each song, like, you know, uh, anecdotes and things like that. And I was like, I genuinely don't remember, I don't remember anything. I just remember just the, just writing, like, I just remember the words coming and being very confident in the music that was being brought to me, being very like, yep. Like, and just knowing there was like a comfort in these words that I was writing, being like, how well they fit to what I was given, you know, and that feeling very comforting. Um, that was also the record where like we learned so much from it's survived by, cause we also went back to Bradwood for this. Um, where it was like, let's all, let's not record a song and let's all five of us are 100% sure on every single one of these decisions. Like no one's compromising. Everybody loves every song. Better is better. Better is better. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how we've continued to run things. But, um, yeah, it was, uh, one, I'm sure a friend of the room, uh, I've, I've told this story once or twice, but like Pat Kinlan, um, I remember playing the record for him before it came out and his response was, so you're just trying to like alienate just your entire audience with this one, which is a very Patrick Kinlan sort of way to do it. And he was just, he was just like, you're at an age where you start losing your parents. He was like, your fans are younger. Like, like, I don't know. Like, I hope this for you, like I hope this, but he, but he sensed like you went pretty hard on this one. Big talk. Kind of a thing. And that's a criticism that I've accepted and I've heard since the day the record came out of like, can't listen to it. And I say, totally get it. There are records that I can't listen to. I reference some of them in the song, New Halloween. Like I can't live without my mother's love from Sun, Kill, Moon, or, uh, what Sarah said from Death, Calf, or Cutie, or Sufjan, Stephens, Carrie and Lowell, uh, two Mount Erie records are so heavy and so, so upsetting, um, because they deal with grief head on. I've talked to Pat Flynn about this, you know, Fiddlehead has written some, some pretty heavy and devastating records himself. But are these things that you can't listen to now, but used as medicinally at the time? Or was it just like, I was just like, I was like, I know what that is. And, and like I, the songs that I referenced, like we're songs that I liked at the time, but then, or, you know, that are just, but instantly it's all sudden lyrics mean different things to you and all of that sort of stuff. But, um, what I found, which was the coolest thing to come of it at the time was a lot of people who wrote off our band, older heads who were like, you mentioned the scene. We're like, yo, I never listen to your band, band name's stupid. You know, we're like, I never checked you guys out. I thought you guys were like, fucking some lame shit or something like that, which I'd say for sure. All of a sudden we're like, yo, that record hit me in a way or like someone recommended me that record after I lost my so and so. And I get it now. Kind of a thing. Um, and it was interesting over the years, all of a sudden people who I'd never, ever would have, you know, thought I'd get a, a, some sort of nice sentiment from reached out to me or talk to me or something like that and some capacity about that, which, um, was never the goal for me. It was just like, look, I didn't go to grief therapy. I should still go to grief therapy. It's just something I didn't do. Um, and I just poured everything into that because it was, there were, that was the eat some people say, like, how hard was that record to write? It was the easiest record to write, right? You're because there was an endless supply of things to reference. It was like, I could talk about being with her in the hospital. I can talk about, um, what it was like, uh, you know, dealing with like having to clear out the house. I can talk, you know, there was endless things to be like, I can reference this or this one conversation I had. There was this, there was that. Um, there's only one song in the record and this is, you know, there's a friend of, a friend of Los Angeles, but like, um, there's a song in the record called posing holy, which is half about my mom and then also half about Tim Butcher. Because he was someone in the LA, in the LA community and a lot of people knew him, um, that had passed around that same time, uh, of recording the record. But yeah, I mean, it was my first time really writing about just loss and grief in that regard in general. And I just really, really put it out there in a way. I had a few people be like, are you sure you want to do this? Like, are you sure you're going to be able to do this every night? Are you, you know, that kind of a thing? Sure. Which I didn't consider for me. I was just like, I just have to do this. Yeah. And how is it, is it still just ultimate catharsis and the songs mean what they mean or are they just. You know, the, because that, you know, that comes up, you know, when the tour got announced, the amount of people were like, I can't believe Jeremy has to sing this entire record in full in all of these different cities and all of that. He's being forced. Like, yeah. And it's like, you know, we all know, like when you're up there, it's autopilot. And that's self preservation. Because I think if most people went up there and were singing about what they wrote the song about night after night, we wouldn't have a lot of us up there. You know, like. It's interesting to, despite Pat's sage like forecasting, you know, I like it. It's like a life raft or a lighthouse because there are people who are lost in the notion that need to connect with something like that and who need that. And, you know, people who go through things at, yes, we all expect to go through what you went through, not necessarily at the age that they go through. So it doesn't matter. Age is kind of irrelevant. I understand the point he was trying to make. Yeah, of course. It's it's the amount of people when I became aware of that record and what it means to some people and people close to me. I had a very new appreciation for it as well because how often do we really look into what the lyrics mean in this kind of music or what the message is necessarily like truly is it a true story? As an as a full album. Yeah. It almost never means one thing. You know. Yeah. So it was it's a heavy. And but but so I think the value that has been put onto it is immeasurable. I have a lot of what that I didn't expect with the album. I could like I said, all I I was just I just needed to get this stuff out, you know, I was anxious as hell about. PR for it, like having to do interviews about it all the time. Like I was it was my first time being guarded being like. I all do respect to, you know, handsome guy at blogspot.com. But like I can't have these conversations and I had I mean, I had circumstances where I would I remember we're playing a festival in Europe. And if this person happens to be watching this. I don't fault you, but I got pulled in, you know, it was pouring rain at a festival and it was like, hey, you have to do this interview. So I'm like, OK, go in, you know, close the van door, just, you know, classic doing an interview in a van kind of situation. And the guy just starts bawling at me about the record and doesn't really even like it just kind of seemed like he just needed to talk to me. And that was the part of the of that album that I did not expect and still don't have a good handle on of like, hey, man, person, anyone. I'm also going through this. Like I don't have answers. But at the same time, I always I never fault somebody. I have 1000 percent understand what it means to like want to go up and tell somebody like what their record means to them. Because I've been that person. Understand. Same. So many times. Darrell from Glassjaw, Jeff from Thursday, like all these people when I was a kid, was just like, yo, this, that and the other. We're all where we are because we feel that way. We're fans of we've had albums change our lives. And if and the beauty of hardcore is that the the beauty is that the ceiling's very low. If you try just hard enough, you can play with your favorite band and is not even trying that hard. And if you're not a dick at all, if you're not a dick for long enough, you're going to be there for anything. So 100 percent. Yeah. Yeah. So I understand the amount of times that people want to come. But like, respectfully, like I can't, I've never been able to look at my DMs. It's just, it's rough in there. And and I. I've 1000 percent feel guilt because I don't engage, but at the same time, it's just too much for me sometimes. For sure. It's, it's, it's your grief. Yeah. Like the guys in my band have commented and sometimes I'll get a, you know, like a pat, like a back rub or something like that backstage unexpectedly, because like they'll be out in the crowd after the show and people will be talking to them about, yo, guitar tone, yo. Yeah. Cool. Fun stuff. What'd you see today in Berlin? Yeah. You know, like, where'd you go? What museums you check out? Ba-ba-ba. And the second I walk out, that same person who's like, about turns and he just goes, he was, hey, so that record, like I lost my such and such and. I get it. I have 1000 percent get it. But to get it as often as I had and kind of continue to, I don't fault anyone and I get it and I respect it. But sometimes it's hard. It wipes me out. Yeah. It can wipe me out. Definitely. It's overlining though. You, you connected. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And I. People need it. Greatest gift in the world. Yeah. Yeah. Truly. Yeah. Also the title stage four and it being your fourth record. It's like you and Volt throw her. You know, so good. Great job, dude. We actually had a conference. Both throw you did. You and Carl. Yeah. We talked. Yeah, we're like, yeah, right. So it's fucking good. Did you ever find the courage to listen to the last message that you talked about in the record? So if you get to the very end of the record, it's the plays. It's the voicemail. It's at the end of the record. Yeah, which which I'm so happy is there because in the age of losing phones and losing that I was like that. That's that because it was a conversation. It was like I was like, is this too much? Like, is this too much to put on? Yeah, of course. And the band members, of course, were like, are you sure that's a good idea? That's an extremely personal thing because it's a very nonsensical message. It's just about picking up a prescription or something like that. Right. But a part of me was like, it'll live on. It'll be like if I ever need to just hear her voice, which as time goes on, mean she's been gone for 12 years this year. So like, you know, as time goes on, you start to forget how they sound or their inflections and things like that. So like, I'm very happy that I have a recorded record, literally on a record. Yeah. Of that, you know. What's the point of what we do if not to immortalize things like that? It's also just such a perfect epilogue to this whole story. You just told, you know, it really. Ten years of stage four live at the Hollywood Palladium with Glassjohn. Seisha, baby. It's crazy that you turn that into like a nice occasion. Yeah. And it's so funny and what in Sanieri's on it and like they're a band that is since the get we've always tried to play shows with. And they're not in the SEO, by the way, I didn't leave them out on purpose. Crushes on the show as well. Okay. I'm a great band. But Grosh is fucking insane. Really good band. Yeah. So it was one of these things where it was like, fucking, can we put about this one? Like it's a weekend there because they're like weekend warrior. You know, they're the weekend warriors. And they've always been sweet being like, it's not you. Just keep asking. Just keep asking. Yeah. Yeah. Every wanted to have like kind of I think the line that line up in particular feels like a cool representation of what our band is because there's all the melody of Glassjohn and everything here. Huge influence on me, young and all of that. Seisha is a huge reason why we're even a band. Like we just wanted to rip them 2004. Ozfest 96. It's just there's so many things that it's just it's kind of a cool mix of so many different sounds that yeah, it's gonna be awesome. Can't wait. May 14th. Something like that. May something. 10th. Mid May. Is that the biggest headlining show of Seisha's? Yeah. Yeah. It's scary. Yeah. It's scary. You're going hard. You got to look and you better come strong or not come at all. Right. As the great prophet James is mean once said, you got to have a riot though. Yeah, that right. At the Palladium. Just yeah. For Black Flag. You ain't shit if you have a riot at the Palladium. Everybody knows. So if you're watching this and you're going to the Palladium, you have to riot. Yeah. Hard Lore is not liable for it. Just a little bit. The first ever podcast. Oh yeah. When does that start? You're the first one. Congrats. That's amazing. Isn't that crazy? Thank you for your applause. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate it. Yeah. No, you're both very welcome. Which, you know what? I'm going to take this opportunity to say I've said this to you both. Personally. You guys do a great job. Hey, thanks. Thank you. Like I remember texting you after going to the live thing where you interviewed the director of Green Room. Oh yeah. And because. So much of the beginning of the show, there's a lot of fun. You guys are doing a lot of goofy things. Whatever. Yeah. And but also still doing interviews, which was which you can. You guys were feeling out what the show was going to be. Yeah. Very much. Which is what the first year of a show should be. Right. And you guys still have fun and everyone loves it. Every day. I love it. Everyone loves it. Where was it? But watching you guys interview him, I was like. Because this is someone that they don't know personally. Yeah, those are those are almost easier. Yeah. Because we did the same thing with. Baby. No, no, no with Jackass guy. What's his name? Oh, Lance Banks. That was awesome. Yeah, yeah. Well, with with Anthony. But yeah, you know, that was also just very easy. It was like, hey, we know some of the stuff you've done. Let's just talk about that. Yeah. As I'm sure you you experience with with doing the pop. Yeah, for sure. But just before we get into it, I just want to say, you guys are it's really been awesome to watch. Thanks. You guys, it's it brings so many people joy every week, you know. And that's all we want. And you can actually sense that you guys like each other too. Oh, that's my guess. When I got here, which is which is also nice. You know, like it doesn't feel like you guys are in two. There's no malice. Yeah. Yeah. So now you 95 percent of the time. Yeah. Well, there needs to be some. If a mic goes out, if a mic goes out, it's never been my fault. Yeah. Yeah. So keep up. So just know that. But the first ever pocket. Yeah. When did that start? OK, it started in it started in 2020. I was of the echelon. Wow, what happened? Of 40 year old white guy, I should start a podcast. But we had finished recording our record, Lament. And it was at the point where I was like, man, I just miss seeing my friends. And oh, yeah. And, you know, not unique in this thought at all, but like the, you know, the best the best conversations are the ones you have with with people that you've shared the road with or, you know, or people that you admire, that you know certain things about that you're like, oh, you know, all of that sort of stuff. The same thing that, you know, with you guys is the what started this show. So like. And I've always just been, you know, I've always just been fascinated by the what led people to where they are type stuff. But like it's fun to have having kind of like a questionnaire set up. When you sent us the questionnaire, we were like, this guy's genius. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because but I mean, I had you could literally you could not pay me to listen to my first hundred episodes. Like, Wow. Just in the sense of like, I was it was clunky. First hundred ever. Like, yeah, it was like, you know, I was probably super nervous. Like the show went through different, you know, different companies, editors, all sorts of stuff to where I am now, you know. So like it was a lot of growing pains. But I didn't start sending the questions until probably like maybe even a hundred episodes in because maybe maybe listen, I don't know. But like you would ask questions, then you would, you know, understandably get someone kind of stumped. I had an answer. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, you know what, if I could just circumvent that and just make someone feel more comfortable. They're ready. Also seeing those questions, you just kind of makes you go, oh, it shows light. Light. Yeah. Like I'm not going to be asked something, you know, out of pocket. Absolutely. Like it'll be easy. Where did first ever come from? I think I just. I think just I was like, if I'm asking first questions, it's like it just seems like a fun first like first was your first ever show. Yeah, it's also fun, ironic thing of like there's a billion podcasts. But not a hundred percent. But they're all this guy. This is the first ever. So what are you? Let's do the gimmick. What are some of your first ever's? Where's your first spin kick? Oh, my God. Was your hair straightened? Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah, it's right there. First, you were like, this is pretty hard. Because because there because you have to have the moment because you know what a show is now. Yeah. And like what and what is. And your heart is pounding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, what is that steak? Yeah. And where were you looking foolish and getting 100 percent? Yeah, probably the whiskey you go go. OK, wow. Probably one of these unproductions deals. God. And productions, if you're watching yourself. Horrible is not responsible. Anyway. It honestly, it might have been the hate verge. Oh, God. Yeah. No shit. Strict and opened. That is one of my favorite documented things. Things are. So the 150 tickets. No, you did not. Whoa, thank you. Thank you for your service. That's you kept and productions in business for years with those 150. Yeah, but we got this video on. OK, you know how many times we've talked about this math. OK, there was three locals before First Blood and Curl Up and Die, who I think were the openers on that, like the actual fans that played the show. Three openers, three local openers. We had to sell 150. BAM before us had to sell 100. BAM for that had to sell 50. Who's left to actually buy tickets to see converge? How much the cap there? 500. Yeah, that's like basically every second. We were I worked at the record store at the time. So I just said I got converge tickets. I didn't say come see my band. I said I got tickets to see conversion to whiskey. And I sold them within a week. Yeah, genius. So for us, it was no stress. Yeah, 150 tickets. Yeah, didn't meet them. But our base, but Brian Grover had it was playing a flying V base. And Nate Newton walked in the room and goes flying V. That was our only. That's so that's so Nate. Yeah, that's so. For those of you who don't know, there's a video out there. Look it up right now. It's hate verge. It's Jasta with converge playing hatred songs. And within the first 10 seconds, Bannon dives and Isaac is singing back vocals on before disarmament. It's crazy. It's one of the greatest things. Yes, ever. Off the cuff. It was so violent. It was it was like the most violent show, but converge open with downpour. Which I hadn't seen them play before. And because I love that weeded out, I think I just come out. Like the read the LP version or whatever. Yeah. And and I was just like so fired up from getting to play that show that I was just like. Yeah, what a historic. What a fucking answer, dude. You want to know something cool about that before we move on? Really? Jasta's singing when Ben starts counting. So he misses the what makes you think. So it's like the dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. Makes you think he's talking. So he's like, let's fuck it up, whiskey. Makes you think everything. He's so good. His sense is so good. He's so good that he doesn't miss a fucking beat. It's one of my and he's in wearing the like first ever 100 demon shirt. Oh, with the brass knuckles. No, that's not the first one. One of the first ever. First one has this weird tiki thing on it. I haven't I got it for a day for a birthday. First ever personal artistic achievement where you felt like you'd accomplish something. Opposite of the spin cake. So my so when I felt like something wasn't like. You're like, I fucking killed that and I'm proud. Yeah. Opposite of the spin cake. Whereas mine would be the spin cake. Yeah, right. Mine would be like, I think we can go to the third pick. Or is the opposite. 100%. There's no arc. Oh, my God. If I was the first song on Parting the Sea, Tilda, Tilda, however you want to say it. Yeah, I don't want that right under the skin. So here's some squiggle, yes, some background for people. Why it's called that? Couple reasons. Till the swing. So, you know, when you're when you're writing a song and they all have fake names, yeah, of course, like a fast song, but the song sounds like this song. There's a sepulcher on every harm's way. The opening note is. Cring, cring. Right, but just guitar, pinging out notes. So it's like, you know, play the fucking song. Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha. Right, and then the opening lyric is on Parting the Sea between Brighton and Me, Tilda, Tilda, Tilda is Latin for title. At all. That's pretty good. Water, sea, brightness. You should write this stuff down. This is pretty good. Wow. But that song is still to this day. When we play it, I'm just like, this is, this is who we are. Like this song is, it's like a minute, 10. But it does all of the things that our band continues to do. It has all of the parts. It feels so good still to this day to sing. It's got a big sing along part of the end that like still to this day feels so fucking good. No matter what room we're in, where I'm just like, I think we, that felt like, it also felt like we weren't trying to mimic anybody. Yeah, you'd arrived. We'd arrived to figuring out kind of who we were. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, perfect. Lament, you mentioned previously that this record should feel like relief compared to the rest of your scography. Is that the goal when writing it? This record for me was moving on from stage four, right? Where I was like, this song is, or this record is about like my life post that record, what that record, you know, got off of me sort of thing. But then also like the stresses and anxieties that came from it as described earlier. So it was me sort of battling with all of that, but there was like the catharsis that I had reached with it. I found some like actual like happiness, you know, for the first time. And that's what some of the songs, like Reminders is one of those songs. It's like, it's definitely our most upbeat song too. You know, I started to have those moments. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. That's good shit. And got to do it with Ross Robinson. Yeah, what the hell? And the last one was a do. I mean, for me, that was like such a, just like as described, like finding corn. Yeah. And then like, and- It's just such an unexpected thing. I'm sure for any Tushae fan to hear from you, you know? Yeah. Did corn- Like from corn? Like being a fan, oh my God. Well, see- Like to this day, you're like, we got to work with the corn guy. So I was right neck and neck with him for so many records because he created, there's things that certainly he did that I was maybe not as into, but like corn, sepulchra, slipknot, glass straw, at the drive-in, blood brothers, the cure. Like, I'm right there. Man, like I like that now too. Or I like that, you know, whatever. So he had influenced through like multiple parts of my life. So when I got to know him a bit and have some real heavy conversations with him about even just like what he meant to music and means to music and all that, I had the realization that what drew me to corn was the vulnerability. Oh, yeah. And that, I think, informed everything in my life going forward. Corn. That makes total sense. I mean, it's very Jonathan Davis, cathartic- Crying on many of those tracks. Yeah. And that's, I think, what it was. You know, and then finding the vulnerability in hardcore was like instantaneous, because it was like, Big time. It's like, respectfully to a lot of metal. And I'm not here to speak on the entire genre. Not as much vulnerability. No, absolutely not. So, I think I just felt that pretty quickly. And then so getting the opportunity to work with Ross was the scariest, that then became the scariest moment of my life. Sure. Where it was like, because I knew all the lore about him. He has decades of lore. And a lot of it is terrifying. And our manager at the time was managing at the drive-in when they did that record with him. So he came to me and was like, because we're trying to figure out who we're gonna do the next record with. Our band works in twos. We do two records on Deathwish, two records on Epitaph, so on. Two records with Bradwood, two records with Ross. Like, we just historically like to do things in twos. You do the thing. You learn and then you perfect it. And then you work out the quirks with the thing. Then you perfect it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do the next thing. So, we were trying to figure out who to do the record with. And manager at the time was like, I have a suggestion. And I fucking knew what he was gonna say. And he was like, I don't know what you think about this. And he was like, what do you think about Ross Robinson? I was like, I was so terrified you were gonna say that. But I was like, I don't think that there's someone who will understand our band more than that guy. And how did that work out? Did that end up being a case? I would, right now, if someone walked in and was like, I am gonna shoot Ross Robinson unless I shoot you first, I would take the bullet. Like, he is, I've learned so much from that man. And he is the biggest, nope. You could work a 12 hour day with that guy. And he has not, he didn't look at his phone once. He is on it. If you have a question about something, like maybe a little unsure about something, he will not only listen to you thoroughly, but present you with five roads to take. Like he is operating on such a high level of caring that you're just like, I'm in such good hands right now. But I mean, we did the try out with him because we were very nervous. And it did not go well. He and I, but it had, it's very, very, very hard. And I know we're going long. Is this annoying if I tell the whole story? No, I won't. This is the lore. That's it. We do, brother. So we go in, you know, and I have no bands that have worked with him. Like I've, I've, I love to talk about people's experiences working with this guy because they're all crazy, right? And I've had certain bands be like, oh yeah, like you, for instance, you have to fear the singer. You got to read those lyrics out loud in a room with everybody go line by line. I'm going to explain what every single line is about. He will like, so to track drums, everybody's playing. Everybody, I'm singing every take to get the drums. Bob Rock, dude. And, but before we track it's, let's get in this room. What are these lyrics about? Right? I kind of knew, I had heard this was a thing. So I was like, prepared for that. But you go in line by line and he'll, you know, he'll be like, okay, stop. And then he'll look at another band member and be like, what does that mean to you? Cause he wants to bring everybody to be on the exact same page. So everybody knows what's at stake. Okay. Which is, we come from hardcore, right? Borderline. We're, we're, and we're also in bands where we've don't, we just, we're like, that's your department. Yeah, of course. Like I don't, like I trust you, whatever you're doing. You know, it doesn't, I don't think twice about it. And that's how our band had always been. You know, I have all the faith in these guys. They have all the faith in me. And that's just how it's always been. So to have them all of a sudden now being like, okay, we're going to talk all of this stuff out. You know? Did you do the same thing with guitarists? You know what I mean? Oh sure. I mean, with, when it came to that stuff, it was more so like, are you playing to play perfect? Or are you, are you in it? Kind of a thing. I see. But you wouldn't look at you and be like, how do you feel about G major? No, no, no, no. He wouldn't do that stuff. But like, he would, I mean, there were times where he would be mixing the record and just all of a sudden call one of our band members in the middle of the night and be like, you got to come retract this. Wow. Yeah. He was just like, he was just like, you're just not. And then if any of us heard it, we'd be like, sounds the same. But like, he's hearing, so even when I'm tracking those scratch vocals, they're all over the record. Those are, like he uses. Just takes whatever he has. When he's doing, he's like, he has everything, you know, whatever. So anyway, get in the room. I know what to expect. And I say, hey, listen, I know we just met today, but just to give you some background, our entire last album is about my mom passing. This album is not that. This is me moving on from that, what I've learned, et cetera. I explain the whole thing. He goes, cool. I'm like, so that's not what this is. So we record the song or we, you know, whatever, do everything and come sign to do vocals. And I'd been warned, stands in the vocal booth through the whole time. Oh my God. And goes line by line and wants to talk everything out, that whole thing, right? So I'm like kind of mentally prepared for that. Right? So get in the room and first thing out of his mouth is, so where's your mom right now? Oh. And I said, no. And he was, and that's kind of where it started. We probably stood in that booth for two hours. Kind of. Arguably. Yeah, you've known me a long time. Yeah. I'm not a confrontation person in any capacity. I have a really hard time with confrontation. So like I was, it was really hard for me to be like, you know, and he was pulling, we just met that day. Yeah. So like he's pulling out all the tricks. He's being like, do you want to talk shit to me? Cust me out. Say anything you want. It doesn't matter to me. Like I just want you to, you know, like, like say what, and I like put my hand on the shoulder. I'm like, Ross, I respect you. I respect what you're trying to do. But for me to force myself to be into that headspace is insincere to what this song is. Because that is actually the incorrect mindset. You're pulling from the lowest hanging fruit that can make me upset. So I then all of a sudden he's like, all right, let's do a track. So I do a track. I start recording and he makes me do the entire song. So as I'm in the middle of it, he just grabs me by my waist and starts swinging me around and he's losing his mind and he's all excited. And he's just like, I'm like, it's gets fucking insane. Like what that, you know, so we get through the song, I leave the studio, you know, a week later we get a mix and it's incredible. You know, I'm just like, fuck. One of those things, right? So our manager even called me the next day is like, how do you feel? Cause he was there. Oh, okay. Cause there's an engineer who's having to listen the entire time to our conversation waiting for Ross to say a world tape. Oh my God. So he's in there or bass players in there, managers in there. Just in there. Just like listening to this happen. And Blaze was like, how do you, where are managers like, how do you do? But he did it at the time. He was like, how did, how did you think that went? And I was like, you were there? Like what do you think? And he's like, I don't know if he's had anyone talk to him like an adult in that regard, you know, like to really rationalize like, here's why you're wrong. Yeah. Here's why I can't, I don't want to do this. So fast forward a little while, we are still writing the record, right? But we haven't fully committed to what we're doing yet. And we play in San Diego, Justin Pearson of the Locust and a million other amazing bands comes to the show and say, hi, he plays in the band, Dead Cross, which records with Ross Robinson. And he was like, yo, I'm in the studio with Ross right now. He fucking loves you. And I say, what? And he goes, he goes, why are you surprised by that? And I'm like, and I told him the story. And he goes, are you kidding me? That is the most Ross shit of all time. Like you showed him how much you cared about what you were doing and like how much emphasis you were putting on like all of the aspects of what your band is about. Like that's, that he loved, he's like, come to the studio. He was dying for somebody to fight back. He was like, come to the studio this week and just say, say hi. So I stopped by, he greeted me super warmly, went back, so we're like, let's fucking do it. Let's do the album with it. So we went into the studio and never stood in the vocal booth with me again. Wow, just believed it. Just believed in it. And we would still talk about the songs. Yeah, sure. Totally, we would get into all of that. But we would talk in the mixing room and just have a conversation. And in the middle of it, he would just be like, you good? I'm good. Let's go. Get up there. Wow. So it was, it was real. And just for me also personally, there was a really awesome moment where he was pulling out this microphone, this vocal mic, he hangs it up and I'm looking at it. And I'm like, damn, that thing is a fucking tank. That thing is crazy looking. I'm like, how long have you had this thing? He's like, every one of my records has been recorded with that microphone. And I'm like, that's crazy. What's the backstory? Where'd it come from? He goes, originally belonged, he was originally owned by Nick Cave. I'm like, no way, that's crazy. And he goes, yeah, it was, I mean, tons of records have been recorded on that. I mean, Leonard Cohen recorded the future on that microphone. He doesn't know me at all. When he says that, all my band members just like, turn around and just look at me and I'm like, I'm like, how did you get it? He goes, it was owned by Indigo Ranch where I used to record out of the studio closed. I got the Cure record at the time. The label said, what do you need to record that Cure record? He said, I needed to buy me that microphone. Fuck yeah. So that's how he owns it. It's fucking insane. He had to, I think he had to buy a multi-thousand dollar microphone to break, to get pieces out of it to repair that microphone, which is insane. Yeah, it's good to tank. That's probably the microphone that Blind was recording on. It is. You did it. Yeah, it's like, again, Barlow, here we are. Did you hit any... Raduer. And then just hit it. Obviously. Once I got comfortable with him, there was times where I was just like brought up, like I just thought of something that I've always wanted to ask about, to be like, tell me about, recording this one specific that, what was it like recording Iggy Pop's part on the At the Drive-In record? And he was just like, came in here one day, they both had handheld mics and just ran around the room singing together, or recording Rikappa with Glassdraw, same sort of deal. Oh, yeah, right. Wow. Fuck yeah, dude. And then you had to release that record in 2020. After all that. After all of that. That's awesome. We, did you either read to put out a record in 2020? I waited. They waited, we wrote. So we did like opposite paths, got to the same spot though. It was one of those things where we had the option to hold it, but we looked at the open playing field. And we said, you know what? A lot of people are not getting new music right now, maybe this will do. Like, our record was also supposed to come out the week before or after every time I die. They held their record for almost two years. So we're like, okay, now we don't have every time I die, it's competition. We don't have, you know, like, let's fucking do it. And then it, you know, sales wise, all of that did better than any of our records. Like, it's to this day still. Like, that was our best record. Because everybody was at home and needed that dopamine first of fucking buying something. And those Biden books, you know? Oh my God. The Biden, yeah. Interesting. Those were good, man. Very interesting. Wow. Although I guess it wasn't Biden at the time. Yeah. Do you think, well, I guess you kind of answered my question. It's just like, is that, there was stuff that came out over those two years, let's say, of everything being shut down and tours not really happening. Like, do you think that was a net loss for those bands? My heart. I think in touring maybe, but overall. My heart broke for the bands that were just starting to get steam in 2020. You know, we know there was a few of them. And then there was, you know, then some bands had huge success because of a band like Gulch, you know what I'm saying? The whole Bay Area just exploded. Completely. I remember, what was your guys' first show back? We did, so we had a God's hate record release, like, pop up. It wasn't a show, it was like, come by the record and we're just here. And that was the first thing that happened here that I remember. And it was cool, it was at midnight hour. When it was in a tiny store. It was like, mass required. And we put a little like, Hanya mask on the flyer, which was cool. Show? Fuck, I don't know. We did a 10 year of isolation. Okay. In early, like early 2021. Did either of you have concerns on whether you would still like doing this? No. No, my God, no. No way. It was like, I did. Really? Oh, really? I've come in from the guy who doesn't, who could be on tour for a year. I think there was just so much pressure and stress and anxiety put onto like what the future of touring could even be. And already seeing the writing on the walls of the state of what the industry was gonna now. What it was gonna become and has become. I think all of those things were, I saw it and I was like, it's about to get real rough out there. Insofar as, what do you mean? Okay. We saw a lot of venues close. Yeah. Horrible. And we're seeing venues continue to close. We just lost chain reaction. Bottom of the hill is closing. Like it's heartbreaking to see happen, right? But I do also remember thinking, a lot of these venues are getting a lot of public support which is amazing. But I also know what that means. That means there are now gonna be a lot more fees that are gonna take more away from already bands that are making nothing. And I get why they're there. But for instance, I think our first tour back, one of the venues had like all of a sudden a thousand dollar cleaning fee. There was no soap in the bathroom. Oh my God. So you're like. What am I paying for? So things like that, I'm not saying it's everything. No, no, I got you. I'm thankful any venues exist, but it was the start of being like, less, it's gonna be even harder to make ends meet now. Wow. Like because. And the internet stopped doing refills. So literally I was just going to say, because Chipotle stopped doing refills. I was like, well that's the future. America's toast. It's over. It's over. What's the difference between us and Germany? Ice, I guess. Yeah. It's not that kind of ice though, like frozen water. Frozen ice. But also ice. Yeah, I didn't, I was dying to get back on the road. I was dying to see my friends. So one of the earliest things I got to do was Sonderviri. 2020. Oh yeah. The R2. R2. That's true. You know what I mean? That was like. Because of our little show. Because of our little show. And Furnace Fest. Getting to do hardware stuff. For our first show back. Yeah. And that was. Oh, the gnarly one, the huge first one back. With like Nogglis and stuff. Had to have been the first one. 2021. That would have been 2021. Then maybe it was. 2020. Maybe we played 2022. 2022. Okay, we were there for that. Thrice played and the big stage Macedon played. I remember our stage, I was just like, this is so my shit right now because it was like Jeremy Enoch from Sunny Day played before us and Mineral played after us. So this is the lake one? Or did you play the shed? We didn't play like the big inside room. We played off to the side. The lake one then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or drug church played the lake one. Probably. Yeah. But I just remember like going up and being kind of anxious being like, I hope this is like also my voice being like, does my voice still do this live? Like it's been off for this long, you know? And as soon as we went and do it, I was like, I love the shed. Ride the bike. It is, it is like riding a bike. It's who we are. I will say though, the grasses is often greener. And there are one of the nice things, nice things about being shut in was that I had no FOMO and FOMO is one of my biggest sources of anxiety. Not possible to miss out when there's nothing. When there's nothing going on. Nothing going on. I miss that sense of, hey, which is, I realized something over this winter. We had a crazy blizzard a couple of weeks ago with Chicago. Yeah. Everyone's locked in. You love it. Everyone's shut down. And it gave me a little like, I can just stay in and play a video game and cook. Yeah. I'm not missing anything. Yeah. There's so that I did, I do miss a sense of that, but obviously I much prefer being able to do what was the episode you guys did where, I think it was a seasonal episode and you chose like Godflesh and you were like, because of. Oh, the summer album. The summer albums and you chose Godflesh. And you were like. This summer sucks. Yeah, the industrial urban hellscape that is a humid city. That was fucking coastal elites being like, oh man, the beach boys. Yeah, come on man. That sounds versus street cleaning. The sounds of summer on Harbour. Price bait rising comes on and I'm like. Pretty hot, pretty hot song. Yeah. Spider-roll in a straight line. Yeah. Possibly your biggest sonic departure yet. I think it's a leap. Okay. Non-derogatory. No, no, no. Like you're singing melodically way more than ever. Is that a Ross? I think as time has gone on, I'll go into records now being like, I'm not singing on this record. I'm not, like I'm over it. I'm not doing it. And then as soon as we write a song, I'm just yelling in melody. You know what I'm saying? Where it's like, that's mostly what I'm doing, but there's a few moments, yes. Like there's a song that has like Lou Barlow, which is insane. Insane. Wow. On it. That whole story is the coolest story in the world. Why don't you tell me? Lou Barlow from Dinosaur Junior. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lou Barlow, Dinosaur Junior, Sebadot, full compulsion. So yeah, it's a song called Subversion. And I was writing it. We were on tour in Australia at the time. And I had to finish like three more songs and I was going crazy, not, I really, really take a long time with lyrics I always have, but I really, really take a long time. All right, all right, all right, song four times and throw it away. And just be like, no, I'm starting over. Don't like it today. So it's having a really hard time with that. And I'm not afraid of flying, get by any means, have to do it enough. But if I'm conscious of this, I will do it where if like when we're landing, I'll be like, I'm gonna throw on one of my favorite songs in the world just in case, in case I just go sideways. I'm listening to my favorite song. So one of my favorite songs in the world is a Sebadot song called Brand New Love. And it's incredible. It was introduced to me through a really funny way by the cover first by the new metal adjacent band Deadzy. They randomly covered Brand New Love. You're such an interesting guy. Yeah, yeah, well, do you want it else? Else is interesting that I think the singer of Underdog does back up full. No way, Archie. Why? I got to interview the singer of Deadzy on the show, Elijah Blue, Share Son. And when I realized that, I was like, were you into hardcore kind of a thing? And he talked about how he had a stint where he got in, I think he got into like Hari Krishna and was friends with John Joseph and all those guys in New York, but like post, I think he said post Deadzy. So did he ask Richie to do it or was it? Yeah, I think they was just like, yo, you should do this. I know, it's insane. It's like, he's like deep in there. He's like, it's like, I just, when I saw that credit, I was like, what the fuck? Whoa, that's crazy. Yeah, so anyway, that's how I found Brand New Love. And it's always been the song that I've been obsessed with and then later in life I realized it's a cover. Tons of people have covered it. So I'm on the flight listening to it and I was at a point in my life where I had gone through a breakup and I'm listening to the song and loving the song. And like the song is about sort of finding new love unexpectedly and the beauty that can come from that. And so also sort of maybe the drama that can come from that. And that's how I've always interpreted the song. At least I'm not speaking for Lou Barlow. But I found myself really like wonder why I chose that song in this moment kind of a thing. Right. And so now I'm walking around the streets listening to subversion being like, what the fuck do I do over the whole end of this song? Like I'm having such a hard time. And it clicks where I'm like, you can weirdly sing the chorus of Brand New Love over this outro. They sound nothing alike. Like nothing alike. But it weirdly fits. So I bring it to my band and I say, guys, I don't know shit about music. Is this the wrong key? Is this the wrong whatever? Like I had this idea. What are you guys thinking? I was almost kind of like just asking them like, how dumb am I gonna look right now? Does this even work? And Clayton and Nick listen to it and they go, that works completely. That absolutely is the same key. It absolutely work. And I was like, interesting. So now I'm like, we now we're going in to do the record and all of that. And I'm like, oh, this is an opportunity to get like one of our cool special guests on our record. You know, like we've always prided ourselves on kind of bringing in people that maybe is unexpected. Julian Baker's been on goddamn three records in a row. Yeah, this one too. Three in a row. She's also, she's the seventh member of the band. Legend. So I was like thinking about all these different people I could ask, you know, and I'm like, oh, that can be cool. That can be cool. That can be cool. Then I was just like, what if I just literally asked Lou Barlow? Like how brazen of a thing to be like. What's the worst you can say? What's the worst you can say? Yeah. Yeah. So do you guys know Yossi Solak? Brands, Vance Blaine. So Yossi had around that time interviewed him. So I hit up Yossi and I'm like, yo, is he cool? Is he nice? And she's like, he's perfectly sweet. And I'm like, okay. All right, so God is email, wrote him an email. I wrote him about the context of the song, what the song meant to me in my life, what I went through when I was writing the song, sent him the lyrics and I sent him a demo of how it would work. He responds, sounds fun. It's like, what do you mean? But just like in retrospect, it's insane to just be like, it is brazen to be like, hey, would you sing your song on my song? Yeah. You know, it's like, it's a huge ask. Like I am not, I am not. Can I have this? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, also it's like, can we also, is it okay if we use your song? Like you're gonna get a hell of a piece off of this. Like respect. But, and the fact that he was like, yeah, I'm down. And then of course, like it took kind of a minute for it to get the tracks, but you know, we've had guests on our, when you all of a sudden get the email with the vocal tracks in there and you're just like, No way. You did it. So going into the studio and just putting it on and then like hearing it like with the, cause at first when you just get the stems, you're like, it's just, I need to hear it in the context. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you hear it in full, I mean, hearing his voice singing that song that has meant so much to me in my life, like in our song, I was like, this is, that's like top coolest things that's ever happened in our band, for sure. That's awesome. Galaxy brain. Yeah, man. Decision. It was so cool. It was so cool. Is there anything you think you haven't achieved artistically yet? You have a big goal that you haven't gotten to reach yet? I would really like to put out like a, like a, like a published poetry book. I've done a live release. I've self released a lot of stuff over the years. I haven't done one in a minute. It's been the sort of thing that's been nagging at me kind of a thing to be like, yo, like put effort into this and do it. And that's not to say I'm deserving of it. Cause I know that there is a pipeline of like singer guy to poetry to, you know, I'm not, it's not lost on me. I do really like writing when I get in the headspace to do it because it's, it's nice to know I can get this off my, I don't have to be as crazy about as I am lyrics because it's like, I don't have to perform this rest of my life. It could just be a nice expression to get out that I feel good about. I'll still work into death, but it just, it's like another form of expression that I really found a lot of joy in throughout my life. So at some point in my life, I would really, that would feel really good to get to do that. Yeah. Let's talk about something very important. Is it bad that I've been just looking at you guys side with this song? No, no, no. If you have something you need to address me, you just take your camera. No, it's totally wrong. Calling music around the world. There's so few things that bring us comfort. So few. It's a hard world out there. It's a hungry world. It's a very hungry world. So the end of the day, a guy's gotta eat. Guys gotta eat. What are you into? What do I like? Yeah. We don't really talk food much in our lives, anyway. No, we've gone to Winxot before and you got barbecue. You got only barbecue. And I remember being like, no, I just, you know, I just take- It's a choice. I haven't forgotten? It's a choice. I remember my friend's orders and you got all barbecue. I remember being like, okay. I don't do that now. Now I'm a mostly just original hot. Love the original hot. Yeah, all flats. That's it. Did I put you on? You might have. You don't get enough meat. I must have. Yeah, you don't get enough meat on the- On the stick? On the drum. The flat is more tender, sir, or- You don't get enough meat on the bone. That's my stance. I'm a boneless guy. What can I say? Those are chicken nuggets. That's fine. The new crispy tender. Also delicious. Yeah, it is fantastic. Okay, so your question is what kind of food you like? No, what's number like, so, Tushae Moray. Yeah. You're on the road. Is on the road. Oh yeah. You unanimously are like, we got, okay, here's the spot. We got it. Well, okay, so that, and I'm not dodging the question because I'm gonna, we can talk about- Let's go you and let's go Tushae. Because there's always compromise on the, and compromise is usually Chipotle. But so like for the band, if it's like, is there anyone's like, oh, fuck, they have that here? Let's go there. It's gonna be Chipotle. That's gonna be probably me wanting to eat something very specific. Like forgive me if I'm getting the name wrong because I think I'm getting it right though, but is it Smith's Fields? That's in North Carolina, South Carolina? Ooh. I don't know Smith's Fields. I think it's, fuck, I hope I'm not getting it. It's something Smith, something like that. But it's barbecue and fried chicken. Oh. And the fried chicken is fucking unreal. Okay. It's unreal. Like they basically give you two gigantic patties on the smallest piece of bread. So you're just like, this is a mess. Okay, good. It's perfect. It's slathered that thing in hot sauce. Mm, maybe. It's Smith's Fields. Okay. Unbelievable. Okay. But the band would be Chipotle. But yeah, they also, I'm not a Taco Bell guy. I've never been a Taco Bell guy. They love Taco Bell. Often they'll hit Taco Bell, I'll take a walk, probably find Wendy's or something. Yeah, interesting. Dude, people need to put respect on Dave's double. You know? I do Wendy's spicy chicken. Fucking elitist. I think it's fine, I like Wendy. Yeah. Wendy, she's- My grandfather was her personal trainer at Old Floyd. She's never frozen. I don't know. I don't, I really only do McDonald's in Europe. Yeah. Just, I don't see it. It's just a lifeline. Yeah, it's a lifeline. Same with Burger King, it's a lifeline. Like- Dude, literally. Hey, the long chicken? Yeah, the long chicken's pretty good. Love a long chicken. But like in the States, I'm hidden, I'm hidden probably like a Wendy's or something like that. Yeah. Wendy's rocks. All right, here's a big one. Okay. You know, it's nighttime, it's dark out there. You're gonna have to walk back to your car. It's scary. Mountains. Have you ever seen a ghost in any circumstance like that? No. Do you believe in the supernatural? Before I answer this, is this, does this, do we get into afterlife question about this? No. You can, you can if you want. Okay, because I have a, I like to hope ghosts are real. Yeah, that's a great answer. I like to hope ghosts are real. I like the concept of it. I don't love the concept of being haunted by something. Sure. My mom had some pretty crazy stories about scary stuff that happened to her and her sister growing up because they worked out of a funeral home in Nebraska. And her stories were very, very believable. It's why I was like, yeah. It's settled then. Yeah, so, yeah. She wouldn't lie to me, so. She wouldn't? Yeah, there you go. So there's that. Are you calling the Dharams home alive? I would never. I would never. I do think that a lot of it is probably in your mind and in your mind. And really quick right in front of his face though. Yeah. Thank you. But also, you know what? If you need to make yourself believe because of one thing or another, let's go with two. Yeah, that's what cavemen did when there was thunder. They invented gods. It's nonsense. I'm on, I can do. I've seen what I've seen and so has Jeremy's mom. Yo. Marissa from. Yes. Freshwater, that photo? Did you guys talk about that photo? It's real, yes. Her story was very intense. When she sent me that photo, I'm still shook by that photo. It was saved in my phone. I don't like it. Freaking. No, no, no, no, no. Get it off your phone. Yeah. I'm all in. Well, by aliens. I'm in 100%. Oh yeah, I mean it's proven at this point. Yeah, I mean 100%. Yeah, it's proven at this point. There were one tragedy away from them being like, we need, okay, just drop it. We gotta distract them. Yeah. Have you ever experienced anything? Or seen anything? No. Unexplainable? No, no, no. I've never seen anything like that, but. 200 shows a year and never seen anything. That's crazy, huh? And the Oran, aliens, either though. Yeah, I know. Okay. They're both real. And lastly, our final question. Yeah. And you can take as much time as you need. Jeremy Bolm's top four hardcore records of all time, four. I'm gonna try not to think too much about this. Yeah, you don't need to. Yeah. You shouldn't have to. You shouldn't have to, right. Chando. What was that? Chando's color. Curse two. Fuck yeah. In this defiance. Fuck yeah, dude. VOD self-titled. Great answers. In this defiance is actually a crazy record. Like front to back. Every song has a riff, at least one riff where it's just like, what? So let me put it, there's a gentleman who used to fill in when Nick contoured us. Eric Goodman, legendary guy, right? Would often get pretty drunk and be the funniest man on earth, right? One time, sitting shotgun, I'm driving, blasting in this defiance on an overnight drive because fuck these guys trying to sleep. I just, I gotta stay up, man. I'm playing the hits. I'm going from this right into fucking fixation on a co-worker, we're off. Maybe we're going, we're going. And out of nowhere, Eric, like we're listening to like into the half, probably during blisters or something like that. Turns around and just goes, yo man, even if you don't like this shit, you like this shit. It's so real. It's so accurate. It's perfect hardcore music. Yes. It's the perfect blend of two, truly two eras. And there was a day where we discovered that blister goes pit to pit to pit to pit. Oh yeah. I think, didn't we just say it was Mach, it was Mach six. Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- Dancing- If not Jane Doe, what's your next favorite? That's a great question. Because I think all of us know Jane Doe is the record, impactfully, musically. You know what I mean? It is such its own thing. So then I like to know what your next one is. Yeah, so because of when I got into them through petitioning. So I go Jane petitioning. I have a buried but breathing tattoo. That's like such an, like no one's referencing buried but breathing. That's a doll back song for sure. It sounds like it's a bane song. It sounds like a bane song. But yeah, so probably if I was to do the order. Just on top. Sure, sure, sure. Jane petitioning. No heroes. Yeah, that's mine. That's yours, right? Acts to fall. Wow. When forever comes crashing, you fail me. I love you fail me. I expected you to be a big you fail me. That's my number one. I love you fail me. This is me just off the cuff right now. Of course. If I probably really thought about it, you fail me might have moved. Actually, I'm swad. I'm, okay. Jane petitioning. Jane petitioning. No heroes. No heroes. You fail me. Acts to fall. When forever comes crashing. Oh, we live we leave behind. And probably just everything in order. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. That's probably where I'm going. No heroes. Goaded. What a band. What a band. I've. Do you have a story with them? Yes, a couple times. When was the first time? What album? The second death wish record, Rust. But we did in 2015, we did Europe with them on our first time on a bus. So 15, what record is that for them? Is that that? That was, that was Moons. All we love, all we love to leave behind. Cause we did the first all we love to leave behind in Europe with them. Oh ours was definitely a B market. So that made sense. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you on, did you ride a, were you on a bus? We're on a bus. With them? First time. Yeah, same with us. It was the death wish. It was us trap them young and in the way converge. It was like the death wish tour. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so we had four bands on the bus. Yeah. We had, we just had three, but yeah, it was. You know that big red one? Oh yeah. The big, everybody takes it. It's got 20 bonks upstairs. 24 bonks upstairs. Yeah, there was a lot of, there was, I feel like they were still all used. Like it was, people just hanging their show clothes in that hallway. Oh, it's gross, man. Yeah. Never tore it with them. Love too. It was, man. That was awesome. Yeah, yeah. I haven't been on a bus many times in my life, but that was the first one. That was the very first one. Yeah, I couldn't, I was just like nervous every day. Really? I mean, just, we had toured the US with them a little bit and that was awesome, but there was like a funny, so we, I know we gotta go. To the Axta Fall, we got to the Axta Fall tour and we were only supposed to be on the first three or four shows. Cause it was like, I don't know, it was one of the early days of the Flyer with 800 bands on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so Thursday was on the first couple shows and Thursday invited us to be the band on it. So we got chosen because of Thursday, not because of Converge. Oh, wow. So we were their pick and Ludax was Converge's pick. Interesting. And Thursday leaves the tour. We then bullshit our way onto getting to play before the local at the Gronk shop. Jesus. We're like, we just need a show. We have that day. We're gonna do a whole, we had a whole DIY tour book where we're like, we'll do the, can we please open the show? Sure. And are you on the, which of the song? Axel Paul, was that? Not yet, 2010. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so we were, but we were, it was in the works. It was gonna happen. So we showed up to Cleveland and the only other band that was there at that point was Converge and they were like, Tyler quit Ludax last night. The, one of the people in the party of Black Breath had a seizure. So they're still stuck in New York. Like, so Ludax showed up, had their merch guy sing after the show. They were like, you gotta go home. And then they pulled us in the room and they were like, do you guys wanna take their spot? So we canceled the rest of our DIY tour, hopped, we're like, let's just do it, whatever. And then Converge breaks down two days later. So the joke at the end of the tour was, two shave or the only band who successfully play every night on the Converge Axel Paul tour. Because they left their own tour for like three days. Coalesce had lined. Oh my God. Yeah, Coalesce then hopped on. I mean, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I was pumped. Yeah, but like, there were so many bands on it. And like throughout the whole thing. Three of the damn jewelers looped to figure those things out. Yeah, yeah. They hated that stuff. Yeah, it was the same. Two shave more of the lone survivor. Yeah, it was so funny. Hey, where did the name come from? So it's so funny to be asked that. I know, I know. No, no, no, thank you. I haven't had to answer that in a long time. It's funny because we never thought we would ever go to Europe. So, got reminded over and over how our band name means nothing. Which is true. It's obviously French and Italian. I originally liked that it seemed like it was just like a sarcastic jab. Yeah, it does. That love, right? Two shave. I say it's a tailor all the time. It also could be. Yeah. Which I like that as well. So yeah, that's kind of, I thought about making a self-title record, but naming the record. Touch love, that's cool. Yeah, but then our demo is now called self-title, which is why it's held me up. Yeah, but it's not called. I, it's why I'm. I got you. Might be the next one. We'll bleep that. Yeah, might be the next one. Might be called. This is fantastic. This is unbelievable. That, Jeremy. Yeah. We love you so much, man. 20 years, 22 years strong. I think this friendship is with you and I. Maybe more. Here's to another 22, you know? I'm so proud of you. This is a band I truly watched from like before the beginning. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like I've watched for stricken, you know? And then I saw you sing. And now I'm gonna see you at the play again. That's what's up. And a perfect app. Jeremy Boll. One of the best guys ever. Wow. Thanks for watching. We'll see you all next week. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Mad Vintage.