Welcome to the Making Sense Podcast. This is Sam Harris. Just a note to say that if you're hearing this, you're not currently on our subscriber feed, and we'll only be hearing the first part of this conversation. In order to access full episodes of the Making Sense Podcast, you'll need to subscribe at samherris.org. We don't run ads on the podcast, and therefore it's made possible entirely through the support of our subscribers. So if you enjoy what we're doing here, please consider becoming one. Okay, we're back with another episode of more from Sam. Hi, Sam. Hey, good to see you. Good to see you as well. Once again, I just want to quickly remind everyone that you will be giving talks in a number of cities in North America this year. This week we have LA, which is sold out. Congrats. That'll be fun. And then coming up, we have Dallas, Austin, Portland, Vancouver, Toronto, DC, and Indian New York City again. If you want to see Sam now is the time to do it, while touring can be a lot of fun, it's also hard work not to mention. You have to stand up there for nearly two hours straight. Yeah, yeah. The talk keeps getting longer. I keep trying to cut it back, but events happen. So yeah, I've learned to stop making any suggestions. I keep asking you to cut 15 minutes in. You add 15 minutes. I'm just going to be quiet, but it's a great show and it's a cool experience to see a deliver it live in anyone wanting to buy tickets, can head over to samherris.org now, and you can find all the info there. Okay, so many things happening that I don't even know where to begin from Renee Good, Ice and General, Greenland, tariffs on the EU for intervening in Greenland, the potential collapse of NATO, and I haven't even gotten to Iran and Venezuela and Maduro might as well have happened a year ago. And it seems like that was just like two weeks ago. I mean, it's been incredible two weeks. Yeah, well, it seems like the Epstein files have successfully fallen out of the news again, and do we even have time to cover the latest round of anti-Semitism? Plus I want to get you take on prediction markets and gambling apps, the latest on AI and discuss Ben Shapiro's appearance on Gavin Newsom's podcast and anything you hope to discuss with Ben when he's on your podcast next month. And more, let's see how much of this we can get to today. So which emergency would you like to start with? How about Ice and Renee Good? Yeah, I guess we could, I did speak about that on SkyCaliWiz podcast at some length. So some people have seen that, I think, but yeah, I'm happy to cover that. Yeah, just once you give us a little synopsis of what you set over there and then we can go from there. Well, there's so many aspects to it that are regrettable. I mean, there's nothing about this that is normal. The more general problem is that we're getting low into a sense of a new normal that is so aberrant, right? So unacceptable or it should be so unacceptable to everyone. I mean, this is just should be just a completely nonpartisan feeling of revulsion that is coming over the country for what we're seeing here. I mean, just the behavior of ice, the fact that you have masked and quite obviously poorly recruited and poorly trained people expressing a totally unprofessional level of belligerence to everyone in sight. I mean, this is not normal policing. I mean, it's not even close to even normal bad policing. Right? So just how anyone has felt that this is defensible, you know, right of center, I just boggled some mind. I mean, we're talking about people who were upset over the Twitter files. Just remember that, right? I mean, that was the level of Orwellian federal government overreach that had them fucking vomiting online, right? I mean, just the calls from Joe Biden, when he's not in power, right? Just he's just got a presidential campaign and he's calling Twitter to have naked photos of his son removed. And he's just asking, right? And this is the thing that gets the Matt Tayibis of the world just around the clock 24, seven, is their entire career to chase this down. And now we have got thousands upon thousands of maniacs in the street, breaking people's windows and hauling them out of their cars and throwing them on the pavement without any probable cause. And these can be immigrants, they can be citizens. They're using flashbang grenades on peaceful protesters. Using people's kids as bargaining chips in negotiations to get people to surface from homes. I mean, it's just the footage is awful. But what is even more awful than the violence, the totally unwarranted violence we're seeing, is the government's response to the worst excesses of that violence when people react. So, and the killing of Renee Good was, in my view, totally unjustified. I mean, I can dissect that a little more if you want. The most shocking thing was the lies that came from the president, vice president, and Christy, no, everyone on down immediately, right? And they were, they were not even normal lies. I mean, they were impossible lies. They were lies being told when everyone could see what happened from three different sides. She's being described as a terrorist who tried to kill ice agents. There is no way of looking at that footage to justify that claim. That was obvious from the beginning and no one, these aren't errors. These aren't normal errors. No one corrects an error. No one apologizes. No one says, oh, yeah, so we had some initial reports. We got that wrong. Obviously, we got to investigate this. There's a sense of completely unprofessional contempt being expressed for half of American society. I mean, this is the framing of everything is that we have an enemy within and we are now going to war against that enemy. The enemy within is basically everyone who didn't vote for Trump and who isn't going to ratify his excesses at every turn. I mean, this is, if you saw this happening in any other other society, you could safely assume that those people were living under a dictatorship. This is not hyperbole. I mean, I'm not saying we live under a dictatorship fully achieved at this point, but what we're seeing in the streets of Minneapolis and what we're seeing communicated from the Oval Office on Down is fascist style governance. There's just no question about that. Yeah. And according to Damon Linker's article, the Substack Peace, which the main point was that whatever you think you're seeing in the media, it's worse. I mean, it seems like every quote said something to the effect of the media is just not conveying to you just how awful this is. And so whatever you just said and whatever you think we know, it's worse on the ground apparently. Yeah. It's hard to know what to do about it. Obviously, I think people need to keep protesting. They should try to do that as safely as possible. So let's say the other side of this, let's just bend over backwards to be charitable to ice and the Trump regime. There's no question that some of what protesters do is unwise and illegal and almost certainly unnecessary to express their free speech opposition to what's happening. So I mean, I'm sure there are maneuvers with people's cars blocking traffic and it's still uncertain to me what just what Renee Good was doing that was illegal or not. But let's just price all of that in. Let's just say this is, you know, to some degree, you know, the fucking round and find out principle is operative. You shouldn't be doing dangerous illegal things in order to protest. Okay, great. But what she clearly wasn't doing was trying to run over cops with her car. There was no reason to escalate this situation. This was not a situation that had to be violent. It was running off the rails. It was not. Ice officers weren't being threatened by anyone. They came in so aggressively and shouting contradictory commands. Whatever you think about the first shot, you know, I still think that was unjustifiable. But even if you get a bend over backwards and say, all right, this is an officer who perceived, you know, any movement of the car to be in parallel in his life. I mean, first of all, moron that he is, he's walking in front of the car. He actually thought he was in a hostile situation. Why would you walk in front of a car like that? You simply wouldn't. This is bad training, bad recruitment, bad common sense, but just leave that aside. And what is he doing with his phone, right? He's making his own home movies of the situation. I mean, what are these ice guys doing with their phones? I've heard that some of them are using facial recognition. And maybe that's the case. That's also a little weird and dystopian. If they're running around doing facial recognition on everybody, we should have a public conversation about that. Again, leave that aside. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. He found himself in the front in front of somebody's car. It started moving. He thought, again, idiotically, that the best way to stop a moving car to keep yourself safe from it is to shoot the driver at close range. I can't imagine any training suggests that's the case. But in any case, within a second, he was to the side of the car, not at all in harm's way, and then delivered two more shots to Renee Good and, you know, kind of ensuring that she was dead. The purpose of those shots were not self-defense. This is not a fleeing fugitive who has several murders on her record, and you know she's a threat to the public. So there's nothing about this that makes sense from a law enforcement point of view. And yet you have people, I mean, forget about all the liars and maniacs who are calling her a terrorist and Trump said the guy was in the hospital and not going to be alive. That's the level of communication. But forget about all that. There's still people right of center defending this as somehow a kind of normative policing that we want, we want our law enforcement to come in this hot. And if you simply don't obey them, you have fucked around sufficiently so as to lose your life, right? And that's basically the center of narrative gravity over there. It's insane. And again, it's coming from people who, from the right, these people who get radicalized by every, or at least here to four, got radicalized by every overreach of federal power, right? I mean, think of Ruby Ridge that radicalized the entire far right for a generation or Waco, right? I mean, this is what got Timothy McVeigh to blow up the federal building, right? It's like any intrusion of the feds coming into our lives. What the feds are doing now is stopping traffic randomly and hauling people out of cars who are just driving home from work and throwing them on the pavement, restraining them and beating them up after they've been restrained. It's awful. Do you think these videos, these horrifying videos, bowed well for midterm elections for the Dens? Well, I think, you know, technically everything Trump is doing now bowed well because it's all quite unpopular, at least from the polls I've seen, you know, the ice operations are unpopular, the Greenland stuff is unpopular. So yeah, I mean, he's- You see, he subs at ease. Yeah. Yeah, the tariff's unpopular. I mean, it's hard to know what he thinks he's accomplishing from a political point of view with any of this. Yeah. And, you know, I know you had touched on the takeaway of what you think we should do where it's protesting. I wanted to get a sense of what you thought we could do, but before you answer that, I just want to show you a video clip of what I think you should not do. Renegant! Renegant! Renegant! Renegant! Renegant! All these comfortable white people who are living lavish, comfortable lives while children are dragged into concentration camps, who are living real life, nice lives in your lattes, doing absolutely nothing for your Latino and Somali brothers and sisters. Listen, I think you want to model the civility you want to see in your society, right? So I just think, whenever these things become oppressive to the rest of the citizenry, I just think it's counterproductive. I mean, that's what was so ridiculous about so many Black Lives Matter protests where they would get in people's faces and cafes and aggressively force them to, you know, in some kind of struggle session to comply with, you know, to grant a cent to the legitimacy of the protests, right? You've got, you know, they'll just bend the knee right now or we're going to, you know, ruin your life. That's just not a way to win hearts and minds in any way. So also these are not leaders of the party. There's a difference. This is not the behavior of those that are leading that party. Again, this is asymmetric political warfare. The right and, you know, the Trumpists have very few rules, you know, they'll dox people, they'll shatter all the norms that I think we're right to live by, you know, when we oppose our political opponents. So it's hard to know. I don't think Michelle Obama's aphorism has, whether the test of time, you know, when they go low, we go high. I just don't, I think that probably admits of some exceptions, but I just don't think you want to be an unethical asshole at any point. All right. Summer related to ice, the State Department is halting visa processing for migrants from 75 countries in its latest immigration crackdown. They're basically pausing entry for any applicants they fear would become blind on taxpayer money if allowed into the US. What's wrong with that? Well, I'm sure everything's wrong with it given the people who are in charge, right? I mean, given that we've got, we're living in Steven Miller's world, at least on this front. I mean, it's got to be unethical. It's got to be callus. It's got to be to blunt force in every application. I mean, so it's just, I'm sure there's nothing good about it, but in the abstract, I think we could admit that we want to know who's coming into the country, which is to say we want a secure border. And two, we want to admit the people into the country who we want in the country, right? Who we think are going to add value on whatever level, whether they're high skilled or low skilled or refugees who we just have a compassionate policy around. We obviously don't want jihadists and islamists and lunatics of any other ideological flavor. We don't want, I would say we don't want communists. We don't want Nazis. We don't want, lots of people we don't want in this country or we don't want more of and we shouldn't be eager to import them intentionally or have hazardly. So that requires that we figure out who people are and have some orderly process of letting them in. And that's all fine. But again, we have, you know, the kinds of people who will separate families and put kids and cages running our immigration policy. Wait, what happened to the $5 million visa where you could just, I mean, I still like it. The golden visa. Is that it? Is that happening? I think that happened. Yeah. I don't know how many people bought it, but I think that was, is a thing. Yeah. That's like a hundred scandals ago. I don't even remember that. Yeah. So people are buying and I believe that I, you know, we'd have to fact check that, but I believe that happened. Yeah. Well, okay. Well, clearly we know we want people in this country that have $5 million to spend on the visa. Yeah. All right. Help me understand what's happening with Greenland. Well, if I understood that, I would be, I think the one person on earth who does, it makes no sense because we have full access to Greenland. I mean, Denmark has one of our, has been one of our best allies for, I think, 200 years. I think they lost more per capita, more soldiers per capita than any other ally in our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, right? I mean, these are people. It's a country that has joined us even in our unpopular wars and wars that were unpopular in their own society for better or worse. There's no reason we should be at odds with them, much less be mistreating them, much less be threatening to kill their soldiers, right? Which is effectively what we have done by saying we might, you can do this easy way, you can do this the hard way and we might invade. Obviously, we risk shattering NATO if we, if it isn't tacitly shattered already. I think it probably is. I don't think anyone thinks we would defend a country like Poland if Russia rolled in there now. We have our Article 5 obligations, I think, are void. It makes no sense because we have, we already had bases on there. We have older bases on there. I think at one point we have something like 17 military bases on Greenland. I think we have one now, but we have full access rights. We can do anything we want there with respect to defending Arctic sea lanes or, you know, mining for minerals. I mean, this is just not, it's not a thing, this problem of Greenland not being available to us strategically. Why Trump thinks we need it for the, I mean, he said something like, you know, America needs it like psychologically or something. I mean, that just is, I thought he said it because he was worried that China or Russia wanted to take it. Well, no, but if China or Russia attempted to take it, they would be attacking a NATO country, right, which we're sworn to defend. It would be the same situation. This is something that has emerged from Trump's green. If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe at Samherst.org. Once you do, you'll get access to all full-length episodes of the Making Sense podcast. The Making Sense podcast is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support. And you can subscribe now at Samherst.org.
