Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the casting creators behind the show. My name is Chris McKayleb, I'm one of the editors of Pluribus and the host of this podcast. And this is our sixth bonus episode. This is a more focused one-on-one conversation as opposed to round table discussion. We're often casting crew who aren't able to physically be a Los Angeles for our recording sessions. And that's yet again the case with today's guest. Taking time out of her very busy production schedule on another show to speak with us on the podcast. And she's always one of our favorites. So without further ado, please welcome our guest, costume designer Jennifer Bryan. Hello. Hey everyone. Hi. Thanks for joining us. So you're part way across the world, also hard at work. So I appreciate you taking the time. Yeah. I don't want to speak for you. I just have to imagine that this show is a real unique challenge because you're dressing everyone in the entire world. Can you talk about your approach to this show and how and if it differed from Better Call Saul or other shows you've done? Yeah. Yes. It absolutely differs literally from everything else I've done, especially coming directly off of Saul. I mean, the one thing we had in common, of course, is the amazing racey horn and our production team and my costume team that basically have been carrying along through our abacurkey journey. But in terms of creativity, definitely more was expected of me, which is fine because I always want to give more. I always want to show more. There's a lot of clothes in the world that I would love to explore to put on the screen. And what was unique about this, which really does make it different from the previous mandates that I would get from Vince when you know when we're embarking on episodes of Better Call Saul or Breaking Bad is that he said to me, I knew he was side by, but he said, I don't want it to look costume-wise. I don't want it to look like anything else that you've seen on TV. He lists all these shows, which was like every single significant project in that genre of dystopian sci-fi fantasy, you know, it's like, oh, my gosh. No pressure. No pressure. No pressure. So the challenge was really to have them look ordinary, then to progress as we will over the episodes coming up and into second season, I had to have a baseline to start from and then we'll start to see some physical changes in their clothes. What I loved about it, when you said about dressing the world, the global aspect of it is that the approach I took to meet his mandate was that cultures didn't matter anymore. Status didn't matter anymore. The geography didn't mean anymore because basically with clothing, what you wear is your message to the world for the day. You represent yourself in a certain mood. You represent your culture. You represent your background. You represent your status. Are your mother, your socket adder, your business man, are you a barista? I know we've talked about it here too and throughout these podcasts, it's like those little details. Yes. Say so much about the character. They say so much about the story. That's the way that you approach things. Character first and then story. One of the things that I take into consideration, particularly in this show is that the others, even though we're seeing them on camera as basically what we would generally say in the industry background. I, in my design head, elevated them as a whole to a character as opposed to people crossing in the background or what have you. It became much more than that because I had to set them apart from the none others, the other humans that haven't made it to the joining. Those 13 special people. When we discover that they don't kill anything that's live, then I had to start to project into upcoming episodes like what happens in our clothing. I mean, it's very little in human existence that you can do without sacrificing another group of extra plows and basically. I had to go, okay, look at them as one character. I did to mix their clothing from different cultures since that didn't mean anything anymore. Clothing became extremely functional. And then it's pointed to the South Indian and wanted this infill agreement that at this point in life with the joining of the others, clothing basically should just be strictly functional. So there is no ornamentation. For example, you won't see somebody repair earrings on or a necklace or a watch. They don't need a watch. They know what time it is and also mixing up cultures down the line. You might see a white shirt with a Scottish quilt and just this makes because now they're going to have to get clothing from where they can get it, only use the existing things that they're found in warehouses and why have you. So I did approach them as a entity of a character as opposed to background. That is so fascinating. I'd never get over it. We talk about that stuff in editing room too. Yeah. Those little details are what make all the difference. I think it does. And it also kind of makes it look like clothing, but subliminally your brain is picking up. That there's something different about the way, not only where they carry themselves, but what they're wearing. And it will become more and more apparent as we go into further episodes. I'm just constantly blown away by your work. Just so much on this show, especially with the others, is your costumes are helping to immediately, visually define who these people were. Who they were. Right. Not who they are anymore. Now they're all just one, but I think it's so fascinating. It seems like such a unique opportunity, but also tremendous challenge, especially when you're having to dress huge groups of people. In this episode, we have the James Bond fantasy sequence with Hollywood lookalikes, which is sort of in stark contrast to the rest of the series. What's really happening? Exactly. Yeah. So how far in advance do you get that information? Oh, hey, just no big deal. But you're going to have to, you know, I did one of there are a hundred people in that scene. No, there were more than that, but I'll tell you how far in advance. It's never far in advance enough. Of course, it's never enough time. It's never our craft in television. And in film also, but more in television is that you're constantly unalert because something is going to get thrown at you. You better have the wherewithal and have it in your toolbox to pull it out. I did get an outline from the script. I did have advanced notice that we were going to dive into Mr. Dia Baches fantasy. Yes. And do this whole rat pack casino royale flashback to the gamma days of Vegas because he just wants all the good things in him. Right. So in developing his character, I came up with this idea that I pitched to Bingsat in the Congo. There is a community of men. They're just working class people. They could be primary electrician blue collar, but they dress to the supreme to the ultimate. They'll spend all their money on the finest designer things. And basically, it's like a 21st century dandism. They will fly to Paris. They're not by knockoffs and they dress like dandies to the nines. And they're called sapures. The French. The French. The French slangs were closed. You know, you're getting where? What are you wearing? You're people saying you're fit. You're fit exactly. And it is a real live living culture. And I went, this guy needs to be a sepure because a sepure regardless of what's going on, he wants the best of the best. Yes. And he came an opportunity and our actor, Samber, has such a beautiful body. He wears a suit very well. And he knew of this genre in the Congo. And we went for it. You know, Tuxedo and the rings and the suits with the crazy colors. He got into it and Bingsat loved it. And I think it did a lot in terms of costume and to kind of help to support that character. And how he is so self-indulgent. Yes. And also, I think the fine line that you're walking, especially with Samba, with Mr. Diabate, is we also have to like him. And we can see. Yes, and he has to be likeable. Yes. He's so over the top with the clothes. And he's so over the top with living out his, you know, he's like cosplaying his fantasies. And so there's like an innocence or a naïve, a te to that. And to his character. And I have to imagine some of that is coming from the clothing that you've designed for him. Because it really informs us immediately and visually in addition to his performance. Yes. That this guy is focused on appearances, wanting a lux life. And he's sort of open to this dystopian thing that has happened. Because selfishly, it's going to afford him that. It's going to afford him, you know, good times and luxury. And I want to fly only a force one. And I want to be in Vegas for Elvis Presley's suite, which we shot in. Yes. Amazing. Crazy. I had so many extras to dress in the style of those times that it's the glamour. Yeah, it was very interesting because I remember we worked out of the hotel. And then we'd have to walk across the casino to go over to the penthouse. And I was like, wow, Vegas has really changed because upstairs in the penthouse, I'm recreating the 50s and the 60s and the 70s, the lockstab, the rat pack days. And I authentically sourced. You know, I have some great kind of open secret sources that I use that specialize in curated pieces up to 60s primarily. And I basically found the real deal almost everything you see there is either we built it or it's authentic. Hmm. A few pieces, maybe contemporary, but adapted. I never take anything off a shelf or rack and then just throw it on an actor, whether it is in fantasy or contemporary. I always have reason to manipulate it to change it and to put my spin on it. And our crew was large. We kind of went in with a traveling crew because we still had work to do in Galbacarkey. And then we did some local crew in Vegas, which were great because they're custom to handling, you know, the big shows and all of that big high end productions that come in. So that's what I did. I had a really good support team assistant costume designer, supervisor, my set costumers that worked with me in Abacarkey, Louis. And so we had some continuity and then we had some local underground support help. It was fun. I just love being able to kind of recreate those looks. But that's what's wonderful about this show that I get to go in and out of people's fantasies and realities and go back into what was really happening in Carol's world. You know, what's happening around her. You dovetail beautifully into Carol because you'd work with Ray Seahorn for many years. And I know we definitely talked with you and with Ray about the foundational nature of that costume, the wardrobe, everything that Kim wore in better guess all. How did you approach this show differently? And did you work with Ray and talk with her? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Talk about that. Making her because she's so Carol. Yes, she's played by Ray Seahorn. But she couldn't be less similar to Kim. Getting different. She's right. Right. And then Kim Wexer. So when we're on better call, so we first started out, you know, we over the years from developing Kim to going now into this completely miserable personality or the character and unhappy and drinker and she's so, so different. So we had to start fresh. But start with a shorthand language that I had developed with Ray over the years. So it didn't take long for us to go, okay, fame actor, clean slate, completely different character. Kim was more flawless and Carol is full of thoughts, full of personality thoughts. And so we had to kind of. And contradictions too. And contradictions exactly. So there was the facade of being this romance writer when we first see her and just had her in this like beautiful, I love that suit that I think she liked it. We kind of lean into that idea that this is a facade of looking like, you know, the professional romance writer and very feminine and just this fantasy, the poppy books that she would write and present her clothes as somebody who's like really into that. And I love that coming down the escalator that drastic cut from all suited and booted to where she's got on leather jacket and she's got on jeans and she's a little bit, you know, definitely taking that skin off and put this other skin on, you know, that costume and her first look in a yellow leather jacket. And I just had this idea that it needed to be something that was feminine but had that little edge because we know that it was going to reveal her true life versus her white car old presenting forward life. So a little bit of a tough girl. I decided on this kind of golden mustard yellow and I could not find that leather anywhere in town. Eventually my leather maker Jonathan Logan, who makes the best leather garments in Hollywood found it in France. Oh, we got that. Yes. French leather. Only the French, you know, they're the fashion. The finest leather comes from France. The finest. Oh, no, we're leather. And yeah, and so it was a French leather very unique. We got just enough to make the jackets and you know, because we need more than one first jacket. Hate to disappoint folks, but it's custom made. My design. You're not going to find it in the shops. See, can't buy. Oh, I'm sure that's disappointing. Can't buy it off for racks. It's really fantastic work that you've done and you and Ray together just I feel like we have a sense of who Carol is just from moment one and the evolution of her. For clothing needed to show a breakdown in what was happening with her in her head. So I really didn't do a lot of tailored looks. Does we would do for her character came we kind of really moved away from that. It was a slouchy sweater and sweatpants that she looked like she slept in it. That kind of. And she did. And she did. Yeah. I wanted to ask about Zosha's the first time we meet Zosha in Morocco. Oh, yes. That outfit that she's wearing. It's a gelaba. Can you talk about that? Yes. So, you know, when I got to script as a sidebar as a long standing crew member on Vincis projects and I'm reading the first draft and it's like Morocco and I wait, Morocco. No way. We'll never leave in Abercorky. Vegas. No, that's not going to happen. And boy was I in for a surprise. The story rooted in Abercorky, but definitely as we'll see and we know by now by one of six how global it is. Yes. And how I had to look at all of these different cultures and I did a really, really deep guide into North African clothing South American, Peru, Mongolia, India. You name it. We touched on it and I went into it with authenticity of the culture of all those cultures actually bearing in mind that a lot of the things that I just talked about the signals of clothing had been stripped away. But we didn't want to show that the show moves throughout the world. So the gelaba is a very basic North African and Muslim garment. Just like in America, we do T-shirt and jeans. We could akin it to that. So it did a lot of research and designed and built that one. And again, several it goes through many journeys and a lot of aging and distressing. I had to start that in Abercorky because we shot that part of Zosia's character in Abercorky before we went to the Canary Islands. So that was also interesting a lot of times in television. We do not shoot in sequence of a story. Right. And we go backwards. And in Abercorky, you also had to dress yourself because you appear on screen as the person who's standing right by the shower when Zosia comes and takes that shower. And also cameo from Sherry Montessanto. And Trish. Yes. I think that this was very, very generous in selecting us. And also very smart and very considerate because she gets off the plane. She's now going to meet up with Carol and she is muddy and dirty. And I just love the scene where she strips off the gelaba, passes it in the trash and she does this back nude shot into the showers. And Vince wanted Carina to be comfortable in that scene and who best to be comfortable with. But the costume designer hair and makeup. So the next thing I knew I was cast as a pilot who does shower duty. Yep. And then Trish is doing her hair and Sherry is doing her makeup and we get her showered and cleaned up. And the next time you see her, that's Carol's backyard. That's right. And what I think of as an iconic sweater that does. Oh, yeah. Yeah, pristine, wide, pure, driven snow to go dig a grave. That's right. That's right. Well, Jennifer, thank you so much for taking the time and joining us on the podcast. This was really fun. Thank you so much for having me. All right. Thanks to Jennifer Brian for joining us on this bonus episode for 106. And thank you for listening to Pluribus, the official podcast and Apple TV podcast produced by high bridge productions and Sony Pictures Television. Be sure to follow on Apple Podcasts to get the next episode in your feed and watch Pluribus on Apple TV where available. Our editor and mixer is Nicholas Sy. Feed Music by Dave Porter. Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin for Beast and Nicholas Sy. Executive producers are Jen Carroll and me, your host, Chris McKaylon. Hello and listen on Apple Podcasts.
