Apple Ternus-over - DTNS Live 5124

Hi, everybody. Good day, Internet. Philly Code Hound, I got a notification that a package arrived at my P.O. box. I assume that's the stuff you sent, and I will get it probably today and go get it. So thank you for sending things on. Rob Dunwood, you're in a different place. I am. I'm up near Lynn today. I'm in Akron. He's in Lynn's basement. I'm in Akron. Yeah. And then I will be much closer to Lynn right after we get done doing the show because I'm actually going downtown Cleveland to go to a concert tonight. Very cool. When do you go home? Do you go home tonight? I see there's a little bit of teal behind you in the room behind you. So I feel like it's still Rob, the Rob that we know and love. Yeah, it's almost like he's in the next room. No, teal goes wherever Rob goes. There's always going to be teal. We have a contract. When do you go home? Tonight? No, I'm going to head back first thing tomorrow morning right before I do headlines. Dang. Who are you seeing? I know you told me about it. Snarky Puppy. So they are a jazz fusion band orchestra. You could almost call them because there's a bunch of them. Do not get them confused with Skinny Puppy. Entirely different. Yeah. Right. No, not Skinny Puppy. Not the same. So where are they playing? I will be as specific as I possibly can somewhere in downtown Cleveland. Okay. I got you. You don't have an address yet? I have no clue. Glenn, just go down there. You'll find him. Yeah. I'm going to look it up. You have an address that you will put in your navigation map app later, and that's all you need to know. I just want to see what the venue is going to be. What is that silver thing over your left shoulder? Silver thing over my left? Oh, no, it's not silver. It's a flower. It's a little flower. Oh, yeah, just a flower sitting on a stand back there. There's a big old box next to that. I want to know more about that. enough about jazz or something no you're the uh where you're going is is actually a pretty nice uh pretty nice venue it's it's gonna be good right len knows where you're going no i just looked him up yeah yeah it's a good venue do you have like a specific place you'll eat at or like like just because you're up there so um i believe that we're going to stop by my father-in-law's before we head up and just like grab some pizza or something just you know go go see him right fast because like i don't think the show starts until late so i don't want like here's the thing if i were to leave right after the show or i leave an hour after the show i get there at the same time because i don't you know i'll either be dealing with rush hour or i won't be dealing with rush hour so i'm just gonna you know we're gonna go a little later and get there and we did like the valet parking and stuff so we'll just literally pull right up and then walk on it This is a dumb question because I know lots of cities are associated with certain kinds of foods. What's the Cleveland thing? Pierogies. Yeah. Oh, all right. That sounds good. Pierogies. Rog and I were talking about piroshkies yesterday. Yeah. No, I was – so wait. What's the one with the skyline chili on top of Spaghetti? That's Columbus. That's Columbus. Or Cincinnati maybe. Okay. So the Cleveland pierogi is like that's what you get. But there's no hot dog thing. That's like a Chicago thing, right? Chicago or Philly. You know what? Ours is condiments. So stadium mustard. Yeah. Stadium mustard is what you get. A Burtman's. And stadium mustard is not yellow mustard? It's something different? No, it's deliciousness. Like spicy brown type stuff? I'm a mustard fan, so this is good intel. If you go to a Guardians game, get a couple hot dogs, put Bertmans on there and some onions, no ketchup, and that's the taste of some of it. Seapots is now demanding a Rob and Len meetup. I assume he's in the area. I'll meet him at his father-in-law's house. Yeah, yeah. Are the hot dogs like standard stadium hot dogs or are they like the Costco size? No, they're good. Stadium hot dogs. Stadium hot dogs. Yeah. What do you have against Costco hot dogs? They're good, too. I know what you mean, though. I thought you meant like the footlong ones that you get from Costco, but no, these are not. Yeah, like the really big ones. Are these like bratwurst type? No. Just hot dogs. Yeah, just regular hot dogs. Hot dogs wrapped in foil, and it's just, they're perfect. The bun is. You got the mustard, you got the wood to it out, the onions. Yeah. You're good to go. You got to get a couple when you go see a Guardians game, though. You know, I used to think hot dogs were very uncomplicated food things. But then I started like looking online down a rabbit hole of different variations of hot dogs throughout the world. And so in Chile, they have what they have. They call the completo, which is basically like a foot-long hot dog. But they cram mayo, guacamole. Like they cram like a lot of stuff into it. It's like a hot dog burrito. It's really big. It's like more condiment than meat, like if you saw it. That sounds like one of those street hot dogs you would get like in Seattle where there's literally every kind of condiment you can imagine on the hot dog. They're delicious, but you almost have to eat it with a fork and a knife. It's so messy. That's the Chicago style. It's like that too. You know, that's weird. The one thing I don't remember from my time in Seattle is the food. Not that it was bad, but it didn't leave an impression. There's very few locations I've been to. You just ate fog the entire time you were there. Did you go to the fish market? Yeah, I did all those things. The only food item I remember is the chocolate-covered cherries that they have. Rainier cherries, yeah. They sell as tourist thingies. Yeah, if anybody out there knows what to get in Seattle, I wouldn't know either. I've only been there once in my life. I had one of the best Eggs Benedict in Seattle. It was actually a Dungeness Crab Eggs Benedict. Yeah, it was at a hotel. I couldn't tell you what the hotel was, but I ordered it, and I was like, wow, this is really good. I had never had Eggs Benedict before, so anything after that was like a real letdown. Oh, wow. Oh, I love Eggs Benedict. And then you find out that's not Eggs Benedict. It's something else. I think of beer and coffee when I think of Seattle. They have really good craft breweries. And just back and forth all day. Beer, coffee. I will take back what I just said. The only thing I remember food-wise was Top Pot Donuts. And that's because they're like the really overly garnished. Jonathan Vargas wants to know. Seattle and Portland, I feel like, were sort of like, they were the start of the fancy donuts. Yeah. Maybe it happened in other places But at least on the west coast It was like ooh Voodoo donuts Is Scrapple as big in Ohio As it is in Pennsylvania? No And Jonathan also wants to know Pop or soda? What do you say? I think most people here say pop Pop, soda As long as you don't say coke That threw me off the first time I was in Little Rock Meaning like a blanket term for all soda? You want a coke? It's like, no, no, I want like a root beer. It's like, okay. That's funny. Yeah. I definitely say soda. But I know what people mean when they say pop, where I'm like, oh, you're from the Midwest. Got it. So also in Seattle, a place called the Crumpet Shop, best fresh squeezed orange juice. Crumpet Shop. So I cringe to Seattle a bunch, and I can't really remember the food. The only time I distinctly remember. I'm not bragging on the food but it wasn't like I was going to I was more I was more mindful of the fact that I did one of those walking tours and the part of downtown Seattle was built on top of the burnt remains of the past Seattle Yeah, you take the underground tour Joe Janos wants to insist that Skyline Chili is Cincinnati and they say pop in Cleveland Okay White Castle might be Columbus. Oh, is White Castle in Ohio? It's all over the Midwest, yeah. No, no, but I've got to get to go east in Columbus, though. Wendy's is definitely based in Columbus. I know Roger's doing a quiz later. But, Len, because you talked about Eggs Benedict, and I'm a hollandaise sauce fan. Not everybody is. But what is that made of? Hollandaise. Is that made from yolks? Yeah, it's made of Dutch people. Okay. I always wondered. Whatever it is, it's good. It's probably not good for you, though. No, but honestly, I couldn't tell you what it is. I just know I like it. It's a creamy sauce. It's a creamy sauce. But egg yolks, clarified butter, and some kind of acid like lemon juice or white wine vinegar. To break it down, it's emulsifier. Sulfuric acid. It was supposed to be a riddle. And a good show, everybody! Good day, Internet. This is the DTNS Live Thursday Hangout from Studio 7 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt. From Studio Animal House, I am Sarah Lane. From Akron, Ohio, I'm Rob Dunwood. Drawing the top tech stories in Cleveland, I'm Len Perrault. And I'm the show's producer, Roger Chang. Welcome to our weekly recap of the biggest tech news of the week. It's good to have everybody. Good to have you, Len. Good to have you, Rob. Sarah, Roger, Joe, Craig, Philip, Code Hound, Clinton. I'm going to just read everybody's name. It's like Romper Room. We're happy to have you. Yeah, we see you, John. You sound very happy. We see you, Len. Hi, Len. How many people even remember Romper Room? Oh, I don't know. That's a good question. I do. I used to watch them before I tied my shoes to go to school. Romper Stomper. Bomper Boom. I don't remember watching it, but I do remember it being a thing. It came on before Mr. Rogers for us, and then Captain Kangaroo after that. It came on after The Great Space Coaster for me. It always struck me. Well, I guess it depends on how it came on. But it was like Romper Room was for the really little kids. Then Mr. Rogers was for little kids. And then you get to Sesame Street where kids are like, we're in a pandemic pool. And then you got to Electric Company and you're like, and then you go to a hotel somewhere else. And then you watch Captain Kangaroo and say, what is this? Well, everybody, if you're watching us live, we're not crazy, we assure you. And you can also help us name this episode. Head to dtns.showbot.tv right now to submit titles and vote on them throughout the show because we're going to check back in on the votes at the end of the show with all of our patrons and crown a winner. Yeah, you're going to want to be a patron. This show and all the shows in the DTNS universe are made possible by the patrons. Thanks to all of you, including Brandon Brooks, Johnny Hernandez, High Tech Oki, and Chris Zaragoza. All right, we like to start the show looking at the top tech stories of the week. We're going to be talking about John Ternus being named the new or I guess next CEO of Apple. We're going to talk about the Framework Laptop 13 Pro, the modular laptop. Those are both big stories. But before we get to those, what else was big this week? Kind of everything got overshadowed by Apple announcing a successor to Tim Cook, right? I mean, the Google TPU chips was a pretty big story. Yeah, especially because they put one for inferencing and one for training out, which was, I think, unexpected for some. Yeah. Honestly, the Huawei, the new foldable that they have. Oh, the wide one, the Pura X-Max. That's like the first foldable. That's actually something I would use. You won't be able to get a Huawei one very easily in the United States, but you will get that style. Samsung is reported to be working on it. Apple is reported to be working on it, I'm sure. I think OnePlus is going to do one too. that shape totally makes sense to me yeah i'm with i'm with you roger i like the shape of that i like the style of it because for me um if i'm gonna have a phone that folds into something i want it to be an ideal form factor when it opens up so i think these are a bit more ideal to use to where you know you can watch movies on them you don't have the big giant bands at the top of the bottom and they just look more like a tablet when they're open as compared to a unfolded phone. So I'm not necessarily interested in this particular one because it's going to be very difficult to get here in the States, but I am interested in the form factor overall. Anybody going to miss Reed Hastings? You know, I don't know him all that well. He's not going away. He's just stepping down from the board of Netflix. The man is alive. That would have been the end of an era story for the week if it hadn't been for Apple, right? Exactly, because you figure it is a Fang or a Magnificent Seven, however you want to look at it, a company. So, I mean, he's been there forever. So it would have been bigger if it were not for the Apple News that we're going to talk about. And I'll say this about Reed. I forgot that he moved onto the board when he stepped down from running the company, right? And so I just thought he left. So in my mind, he was already gone. well because he was a co-ceo for a while yeah right and then moved to the board yes um which is doesn't mean that you don't you're not hands-on but you know you're stepping away on some aspects um and to kind of say like yeah you know i'm i'm i'm out of here at this point because netflix is it's not like oh this is associated with netflix you know going into the ditch the company doesn't work anymore it very much does netflix is doing great so it might it might have a lot to do with just maybe he's tired maybe the company feels that he's they're better off without him he just needs a nap he'll be fine he needs a nap and people retire at some point so you know what i've been working long enough i want to go enjoy the rest of my time and just do the things i want to do so and i'm just gonna guess that reed hastings probably has some good retirement money at this point you think you know if you're just like i'd like to go on a cruise he's got the money he says he's gonna do philanthropy which is just like boilerplate person leaving company i'm gonna yeah i'm gonna go and you know i'm gonna do the things for the people yeah i i mean netflix is at a saturation point he is leaving it on a high note there's a lot of concerns about where it's gonna go like you said it's doing great um but i i don't think him leaving has anything to do with like, oh, it's about to go in the tank. Let me get out of here. I think it's just time. I'm sure he's at that point where he knows that the company seems to be running fine without him directly being involved. He hasn't been directly involved, right? Yeah. And so also he's like, yeah, maybe I want to go pursue my passion of making Eggs Benedict or something. I don't know. Yeah. Hastings Hollandaise. He probably knows what Hollandaise sauce is made of. He does. He didn't have to look it up on Google like I did. Well, you might have thoughts on what you think the top tech story of this week was. And if you do, vote in the poll. We've got it going on throughout the show. Patreon.com slash DTNS. All right, the big news of the week. Apple's got a new CEO coming into the job September 1st. So Tim Cook's still CEO for now. He will still be CEO during WWDC in June, but September 1st, just in time for new fall announcements, John Ternus, the current hardware chief, will take the reins. Tim Cook will stick around, Reed Hastings style, as executive chairman on the board of directors. So what do we think of the succession plan? There's been a lot written about, well, you know, is this the right move and what will the legacy be? But what do you think about the way they handed things over? Well, they've been talking about this. This is a secret that nobody really was holding. We knew that he was going to step down. Now, if I'm honest, I thought that he would have said that I want to see one more release of the iPhone. And then I'll make my exit. But it like look we want to do it at WWDC That kind of makes sense as well So here where we are I think he is kind of doing the Reed Hastings thing It like I not leaving leaving I'm just not running the day to day anymore. I'll be the chairman of the board. You know my number. If you need to get to me, you can. If something crazy happens, I'm here. We've seen where people have moved to the board and then moved back. I'm not predicting that. I'm just saying we've seen that happen before. So he's around. But once again, it's not necessarily a spring chicken either. It's like this is someone that is getting up there in their later years and probably just wants to stop running one of the largest companies on the planet. And Tim Cook for 15 years has, I mean, objectively put Apple in a really great financial plan. Yes. Name one thing besides the fact that on average the company has made $67 billion a day since he took over that he has done for Apple. so so here here's actually my and this is just sort of you know inside baseball stuff okay so john turness takes over uh you know officially on september 1st right so we we're gonna have wwdc maybe they'll talk about that i doubt it but you know that's it's known it's out there it's news apple has officially announced it yeah i feel like they'll acknowledge it but not not dwell on not spend a lot of time yeah what happens in september because i can see tim still kind of being like i'm running this keynote and then handing the reins over one more thing like they do their announcement on september 1st but i don't know i just it it feels like whatever they are announcing and you know i'm hoping for that foldable i'm hoping for it and i you know i think we're going to get it. Obviously, Tim Cook has had his hands on this for years, of course. So for him to not be part of that, I don't know. I'm very curious to see how they handle this. I have an idea. So September 1st, John Ternus takes over. Let's say, because they quite often have an Apple announcement that first week or second week in September, right? So let's say September 1st, John Ternus takes over. The first Apple announcement is, I don't know, September 8th. I don't know if that's a Tuesday, but whatever. They start the announcement with Tim and John doing a skit because Apple loves doing their pre-recorded skits. And I'll leave it to the imagination of y'all to figure out what it is. What kind of skit would it be, though? You know, it's like, hey, John, what are you doing here? Like, John, this is your first time doing a keynote as CEO. You know, I've got some tips for you. I don't know. Craig Federighi parkours in and hands him a baton. I could see them doing a George Clooney, Brad Pitt, Ocean's Eleven to where make sure you've got batteries in your clicker when you're doing your slides. Oh, thanks, Tim. Yeah, something like that. But, you know, here's what I'm thinking is going to happen. I think that they announced it. It's September 1st. He will step down on September 1st. They're probably you'll probably still be around in September. But I think that this will be the opportunity that when we have WWDC and he is on stage, he will get the thunderous applause. That'll be kind of like his farewell tour that like, you know, Hall of Fame basketball players get when they get ready to retire. Yeah. Tim Cook will come back on stage at the end of the WWDC opening keynote and say, you know, I just have a few last words to say and thunderous applause, like you say. And that'll be the that'll be the poignant goodbye moment. And Laminar Rainbow says Apple's humanoid robot will carry John Ternus on stage. And then maybe in September, yeah, maybe Tim Cook doesn't actually open it, but he's part of it in some – they do, like you said, Tom, some sort of a skit where it's like, hey, Tim, what are you doing? He's like, I'm just chilling. Yeah, I don't do that anymore. You know, the new Apple Vision Pro that may or may not ever come out. Yeah. Well, because as executive chairman, they said that he's going to continue to work on, you know, worldwide relations. I can't remember exactly how they phrased it, but it's pretty clear that he's going to still go to China and meet with Xi Jinping. He might still go to the White House to meet with the president. Like he is he is going to do that kind of stuff. He's going to be active for Apple, just not in the day to day. And we've seen this with a lot of other executive chairman situations before. That's the executive and chairman. Pretty hands on as far as the company goes. Just handing off the reins to a lot of day to day stuff to somebody else. Now, here's a question for you guys. John Ternus has taken over. John Ternus is a hardware guy. And we are in the era of AI, maybe not Apple. So is there anything to read into the fact that the new person is a hardware guy and not necessarily an AI guy or software person or whatever you want to call it? And it's interesting because I see a lot of Tim Cook's fingerprints over the Apple Silicon and the design of the new MacBooks because it's very much of the supply chain and then making everything as cost-effective as possible, right? Because if you look at the way that the MacBooks are designed, one of the things you get rid of when you do, like, you get away from a lot of the internal expansion is you get to slim down your kind of footprint on what you need to bring in to make a lot of this stuff, right? You don't have to suddenly keep on hand a huge amount of, say, like, expansion boards or anything like that. You slim it down. If you actually take a MacBook apart, the board's really tiny. And so to me, that just sort of like that played to Tim Cook's strength of navigating those parts of the supply chain that most effectively brings together the stuff that the consumers want, but also doesn't leave Apple with a huge inventory that they're just paying rent on for stuff. I think with Ternus, you'll probably see more advances in both silicon, but also I think maybe in software as well. but but why he's the hard right like all the stuff you said about uh that you were crediting cook with which i think you're right a lot of that supply chain stuff magic definitely comes from him turnus was overseeing that and so was johnny surugi who's now the head of hardware uh in turnus's place so what i good it's going back to rob's question what what will what will turnus do with software i think he leans on the people who do software well at apple i i think at some point that i think this is where we see that sort of grand like uh that grand overarching os that covers both the the the ios devices that is what they've been doing right yeah continuing like you'll see that actual like but what about but what about ai that's what everybody wants to know that the people who are most negative about apple blame tim cook for letting apple fall behind in ai uh they don't buy it when apple says no no no we ship products not technologies the reason we haven't done ai is because ai isn't ready yet they think that's just an excuse for falling behind and they look at john and they're like, this guy's kind of an AI skeptic, maybe not skeptic, but he's not the most AI forward guy from what we've heard. And he's a hardware guy. Why are you putting him in charge? Yeah, that's what my thought was. We try to read these tillies. Is this one of them? Is this telling you that, hey, Apple is a marketing company that sells really, really good hardware. That's what we've been. That's where we're going to continue to be. I don't see that really changing with the leadership. It would have said something if they would have gone out and gotten someone who is like one of the foremost people in AI to do this, or they would have even got someone internally who was like hitting up all the AI stuff they're doing, but they didn't do that. They went with the hardware guy, clearly the hardware guy. So is there a key for us to read based on that? I mean, I'll say this much. Apple lives and dies on its hardware, right? If you stripped away all the Apple hardware and you just left the Apple services or whatever. It's not that remarkable, but it's really... But that has been the growing emphasis of Apple. They've been slow motion pivoting to services for 15 years and services are bringing in more and more money. It is one of the fastest growing parts of the business. So bringing in a hardware guy tells me you don't see services as the future of Apple. You see services as a continuing way to sell hardware. Um, I see it as they're not going to be a big player in AI beyond what you can do inside the inside the iPhone inside of a Mac. I just, I just don't see a I don't see them being where Microsoft is definitely not where Google open AI, anthropic are from an AI standpoint. I think it's, I don't want to say it's an afterthought. but I do believe that Apple missed the AI boat. I think that they missed it. They tried, but they fundamentally missed it. And I just think that they're so far behind. I don't know that they can catch up. And because of how good they are with the hardware and now starting to get with the services, maybe they don't have to be. Maybe they can just license this stuff out. I'm wondering if they even need to be in that same sort of tent, right? Like to be a Microsoft where you have an obvious hand in it. I mean, remember when everyone used to talk about Apple's going to do search. They're going to do a search engine. They're going to do all this. It's like, I mean, it's already done. They looked into it, too, and they were like, yeah, it's not worth it. We can just rent search, and it's fine. Exactly. And we're still at the period where there isn't a sure winner. This is the company that's going to just override everyone else. It's still pretty churning. It's more of a horse race now than ever, right? Yeah, yeah. And so they could just be like, well, you know, why jump into it now when everything's still up in the air? And we'll just kind of figure out as the players get whittled down, so to speak. It's worth noting, too, that OpenAI hired Johnny Ive, the former Apple hardware designer, because they see one of the parts of the business they want to grow as hardware, as putting OpenAI in hardware. And it may make sense that Apple goes, well, if that's where open AI is going, we're already there. Let's just double down on that. that makes sense because unless unless there is some new neural link stuff that we don't know coming out to where you can put a chip in your head yeah you still need you still need a physical piece of hardware to interface with artificial intelligence whether you wear it on your face whether you you know have it you know behind your ear whether it's in your pocket something physical is required even for the ai play when it's on you right you can't you i mean you're right it's it's the gate. You cannot do anything else without it. And Apple just has that lily pad that everyone wants to be on. The mistake will be if this is like an operating system, which a lot of people think it is, where your AI platform is your operating system. And then Apple starts to depend too much on another company, right? That's why you have macOS, because they want to control the stack. If it's more like an office suite, though, then this does feel more like the moment they put Bill Gates on stage and said, yeah, Microsoft Office is coming to the Mac. And it didn't end up being something that killed Apple, right? And so having Google do AI for you could kind of feel that way, like, oh, we lost to Google, but maybe it doesn't. It's just too early to know which way that's going to go. Yeah, and I don't see, no matter what OpenAI does with hardware, they're not catching Apple anytime soon. Google's not catching Apple anytime soon. Microsoft is different in the way their relationship with all the OEMs that they work with. And they're already in front of Apple from just how much stuff they get shipped that has Microsoft software on it. But Apple is unique in the sense that their hardware is what they're known for, even though they're trying to do all these other things. So I'm just wondering, like they're saying, can we just let's put a hardware person in charge of the company and let's just keep doing hardware really, really, really well. better than what most other companies are able to do it. Yeah. Willie Scott pointing out, MPUs, the neural processing unit that executes your inferencing in a Mac are phenomenal. So maybe that ends up being more important. And it ties in with their security focus, which is have it on device. Yeah, yeah. Very much. So I could conceivably have sort of a split sort of AI where you have AI services like Gemini, like ChatGPT, as a separate standalone thing outside of their integrated one just for their hardware devices. Last question before we move on. Do we think John Ternus is for good and all? Some people have interpreted the fact that Tim Cook is sticking around as sort of like you're on a trial basis, and we could Bob Iger this and bring Tim back, like Rob was mentioning earlier, or we might even have somebody else in the wings that if john doesn't do well we can swap in somebody else i mean that's very not apple yeah i know um to be like let's just like make it crazy and see what see what happens i think that they i think that the company because these rumors have been going around for a while like tim may not you know be you know here for the long haul not that he hasn't already been but just you know there's probably been some whispers of him figuring out like okay who's my successor um i don't think apple takes this lightly i think that they think that turnus is the right guy for the job if he isn't obviously we'll hear about that but no i don't think this is this is meant to be some sort of uh soap opera type thing yeah i don't think it's a faffo situation where they're just like you know give it to turtis uh if anything they probably do have a backup plan that is very apple to be like well we think it's going to be fine but if it isn't you know and that's one of the reasons why he's still there as chairman of the board so i think part of this too is that you've got tim cook he says he calls his accountant says so how many dump trucks of gold bullion do i have out back 13 13 whole drum trucks okay i think I'm good. Let's let's do something different. Yeah. Let's I think that is a part of it. So it's not like he messed up and Apple saying you got to go be the board and run everything at this point. You know, that's saying that I think he's saying, hey, we need to figure out who's going to replace me. I think this is the person and I'm going to slide over here. I'll be here for a few years. Like he'll do the Reed Hastings. I'll be here for a while in case crazy stuff happens. I'm the mentor. You need to get back to me for whatever reason. But, yeah, I got 13 dump trucks of gold bullion out back. I'm good. And, you know, honestly, he's been the face. You know, he's been the face of Apple for good or for ill. And he just could be taking one for the team because, you know, I'm sure, you know, running Apple through a very tumultuous period might just lead to a lot of criticism. he could just soak that up in kind of clearing the board for John to take over and just sort of have like, okay, that was his deal. I'm running it. I don't know. Part of me wants to say like he just wanted to leave. He also wanted to kind of clear the air around Apple because of certain things that have happened, whether you're talking about the Apple Vision Pro or whatever happened to the Apple car. You know what I mean? Like, you know, just sort of just those are his mistakes. There's a new guy. Keep the investors happy that, you know, Cook is still around just in case things start to fall off the rails. He's there to kind of push it back. But, you know, sort of like to have your cake and eat it, too, so to speak. The Apple car was also much more of a rumor than a reality ever. Yeah. It was a thing they spent a lot of money researching. But, yeah. Sure. Yeah. But I think John Ternus taking the reins is weird for certain people because they're not that familiar with him. But it doesn't mean that he isn't really, really capable for the job. You see a lot of other front-facing executives at Apple over the years. And so you go like, oh, why isn't it Federighi? It's like, well, some people are just better for this role than others. Yeah. I don think Apple spun the Price is Right big wheel with names It just landed on John Ternus They said okay that who we going with I don think that was the decision I don think that was the decision matrix When you're at that position, it's not just running the company. Can we call him JT? It's dealing with the relationships of the company, whether you're talking about relationships with other companies or with governments or politicians. You know what I mean? There's a lot of other skill sets other than... Than parkouring in your video. Yeah. Not that there's anything wrong with parkouring in your video. No, there's nothing wrong. Hey, if you can do it at his age, if I could do it right now. Well, that was a stunt guy, so I don't even think Federighi could do it at his age. But yeah, no, I think like Sarah was saying earlier, they've been hinting in the press. They've been leaking things to the press for years that this was coming. This is a well-considered, long-in-the-making plan. And so I don't think there's anything kind of off the cuff about this or panicked or anything like that. I wouldn't be shocked at all if they knew last year. I think they did. If they knew last year at WWDC, hey, dude, you're up next. Yep. They probably knew. They've been putting Turnist out for these in-depth interviews with like the Wall Street Journal and stuff over the past year. So it's kind of pretty clear in hindsight. Or John could have been the one that Turnist up at the meeting and they picked him. I don't know. It was a good effort. It was a good effort. I like the work you put into it. Very salacious. Keep at it. Let's talk something not Apple. The opposite of Apple, Framework has made a more solid version of its modular laptop. In fact, they're billing it as the MacBook Pro for Linux users. Has a bigger battery. Has a touchscreen. Starts at $1,199 for the DIY version. A little more expensive if you want the one that comes pre-done with Windows or Ubuntu. But people are raving about it. Certainly, Framework fans are raving about it. It's the most solid build that they've had yet. And a lot of people are saying this is something that people can just pick up and go if you don't get the DIY version and start using Linux. Or you could get it with Windows, but now you've got a modular laptop. You don't have to replace it. You just keep, you know, ship of Theseus style pulling out parts and modules as you need them. Do we think this is what kicks modular computing and maybe even Linux into the mainstream? Rob, this was something I really wanted to get your take on because I know you're a Windows guy. But would you go Windows or Linux if you're going framework? I'd go Windows just because I like, you know, I know Linux well, have used it. I've have, you know, when I was back in corporate, we had software that it ran on Linux. So I'm very familiar with it. I just happen to like Windows more. The other part of your question, do I think this pushes Linux into the main sphere? No, it does not. Not even close. And I think we have to think about how this is going to be used. I can't imagine that you're going to have a Oracle that's saying, hey, go buy 30,000 of these. Or you're going to have an IBM says, go buy 240,000 of these. Or you're going to have, you know, Amazon say, you know what, we need 77,000 of these. I don't think that that's where this play is. This is for the enthusiasts who are small in number, but very loud in voice, who are saying this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. They don't amount to the millions. They don't even amount to the hundreds of thousands. It is the tens of thousands of them that are screaming at the top of their lungs that this is the greatest thing we've seen in some time. Yeah, I think that is a really good point to keep in mind, that you are not going to see them compete with Dell or Lenovo or HP in sales because there might be some enterprises that go framework. I look forward to that story. That would be great news for framework, but it's not going to be a lot. I think you're right. We're not going to see massive sales. And so that means this is a consumer-oriented laptop. And consumer may be the wrong word because it is for developers and professionals and people, but it's an individual, right? You're not buying them for a whole enterprise. That doesn't mean Framework can't make a good business out of it, though. They definitely can make a business out of it. I mean, they are. And it is definitely a tinkers product. It's for those people who bought the Linksys routers, the WRTs, the WRTs, the WURTs, that allowed you to put your own custom firmware on them. And they sold it to a very niche market of people who really wanted that. I think that the biggest market share this will take away from is like the kind of gray market, white box laptops resellers who sell basically bare bones laptops. And then when you order it, you say, I want this CPU. I want this screen. I want a 4K screen. I want this GPU. I want this sort of expandability. You can pick and choose. You don't really screw it together yourself. You just build to order like you would a normal laptop. But you can do that with lots of laptops already. Well, the difference is that they sell basically what are considered to be workstation laptops, so there's more space. So you can do like, I want four NVMe slots in this machine. I want this size battery in it. I want this keyboard. And especially the screen. Most notebooks don't allow you to replace the screen without moving to the next one. You can pick and choose what kind of screen you want. And the guy at the other end will look at it, and then he'll just screw it together and then send it off to you. this sort of cuts that part out because then you can just essentially buy all those pieces from Framework when they make it available to you. And that way you don't necessarily have to sit with an orphan machine that no one else has because you just bought the weird, you know, aardvark that has like a 4K OLED screen with, you know, with the three NVMe slots. But instead of going for like a high-end AMD, you wouldn't go for a high-end Intel and then a specific GPU combo with it. That takes a lot of time and a lot of research on a user's part. This simplifies that whole process and cuts that out. That's why I don't know if I agree with you that this is for tinkerers anymore. Like this gets the benefit of being a tinkerer without having to be a tinkerer because this modularity is so easy. oh yeah no definitely but like for for most people who use laptops is that really what you do or you just do your you do your office emails you do your your accounting you know software or whatever and you call it a day and you close a lid yeah there's some there's some there's some name for the people between like i don't want to have to tinker that's too much time but i do want to customize, right? Because you're right. The person who just wants a laptop for doing their work and their emails isn't going to care about swapping out main boards and that. But there's also people who are like, yeah, I would like to be able to upgrade that. I would like to add more RAM more easily or a new hard drive or customize. But I don't want to do it. I don't want to have to go to the trouble to do it iFixit style, right? And that's what framework is targeting is like, hey, a couple of screws for a couple of things, but a lot of stuff, you just pop it in and out. It's super easy. I know a couple of people, I'm sorry, Rob, go ahead. I was just going to say, I think that the big hardware manufacturers are fine to let this company do this. They're like, you go ahead and take that. And if you get any traction, just understand that we'll start doing it if we think that there's a market there for it. So how do I think this could play? It'll be that you can now get a Dell XPS that you can replace the RAM in it. You can replace the hard drive in it. That's probably about the extent of it. It's not going to be much more than that. But they'll make that easier. You could already do that. All those companies already sell laptops that do that. But they sell them to institutions. Again, these are workstation laptops. They sell them to corporate customers who have labs, who have – But you still have to unscrew, right? I think we're undervaluing how easy Framework has made. Oh, no, no, no. That's what I'm saying. It's like I have a workstation laptop. I can pop the bottom off. I can take out the CPU, the GPU. Once I spend four hours taking the cooler and the fans off, the whole thing. And it's very complicated. But I can also change the screen and the keyboard. I can do all that. It's designed for that. It's just very time-consuming. You're supposed to let the department IT take care of that, not the guy who gets it. Well, and I don't think that this is marketed for people who are like, I don't know how to use a screwdriver. It's people who say, I don't want to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know how to do it. That's a really good point. I know the components that I need. I know what I would want to upgrade in the future. And I guess my question is, you know, is the promise of upgradable stuff in the future a good investment? It will be a good investment on a certain segment of the market. In the same way that there are people who will buy a camera with interchangeable lenses, and there are other people who are like, hey, my phone has a great camera. I'm going to stick with that. One big advantage is the framework is saying they secured their RAM supply because they're big enough now that they were able to go and say like, all right, we think we need this much RAM. So it might be worth doing a framework laptop just for that reason. I mean, that was very fascinating because there was also timing. They said if we had waited just a little bit longer, we would have been able to get our foot in. Now, here's the question. How much RAM did they secure? They secured enough for them. Enough RAM for them is like that's how much Dell needs Thursday. Yeah. Don't get too popular, Framework. Right. Framework is like, we are good on RAM. Buy our products. We don't want too many people to take advantage of that. We're still niche. Crystal niche. Well, depending on whether or not you're thinking of getting a modular laptop or you're like, nah, not for me, you might be an 8-bit computer fan. Many people out there are, ourselves included, and wondering if that Commodore 64 Ultimate is the right machine for you. Or maybe you're saying, what is that even? Well, Tom and Brian Dunaway joined me on our latest episode of Live With It to share their experiences with this very nostalgic machine on this week's episode. It was really fun to do. Brian Dunaway, thank you so much for being with us. He made it all that much sweeter because he was very excited about it. Find it at YouTube.com slash Daily Tech News Show. All right, let's finish our weekly roundtable with a little game time. Roger, what you got? Well, riddles. I was watching, no, I wasn't watching old Adam West Batman where he was fighting the Riddler. Riddles are great, though. They trigger a feel-good dopamine hit and satisfy our urge to solve problems and give us bragging rights the next time we're down at the local watering hole for trivia night. So in that vein, here's some riddles that I found. I didn't come up with them, but I found that would even leave the Sphinx perplexed. And I wanted to make sure they weren't too easy, but also not too hard. I was going to say, do you think of riddles? Does everybody else think of riddles as a dopamine hit? Because I think of them as incredibly frustrating sometimes. Yeah. When you figure it out, it's great. Yeah. I guess if you're the kind of person who regularly figures them out. And I just go, I don't know what that meant. All right. All right. Maybe I'm just. Okay. So that's a dopamine hit right there. Laminar rainbow just gave us a $5 super sticker. That is a dopamine hit. Because Laminar rainbow is awesome. Yeah. So did we just shout out if we know the answer? Yeah, just raise your hand and say my answer is this. Okay. All right. A riddle one. You're in a race and you pass the person in second place. What place are you in? I know. Okay. Roger if you're going to ask people to raise their hand You have to call on somebody Oh Sarah I was waiting for Sarah I'm in second place Rob Second place Tom Because we're in a race You passed the person in second place But you didn't pass the person in first place So you're in second place That's good I think Rob and I We both get points for that We did hands As requested Yes, thank you Little Sue, a woman gives birth to two sons On the same day, same year, same parents But they are not twins How? Two sons I know S-O-N, right? Not S-U-N When you say same parents It's her and The same spouse and the father? Okay, Rob knows. They did in vitro. Really? No. A woman gives birth to two sons on the same day, the same year, same parents, but they are not twins. I mean, in vitro would be a way to do that. You just put in two different embryos. Two eggs, two sons. They would be twins. These are riddles, after all, so they're supposed to throw us off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't get it. Remember, a lot of riddles are the wording. They are not twins. A woman gives birth to two sons, same day, same year. But they are not twins. So they were both Monday on two different months? They are not twins. That wasn't what I was asking. A woman gives birth to two sons on the same day. Same day, same year, same parents. The same parents thing sounds weird to me. because is the woman and the father are they the father and the mother are the same for both for both same day same year same day same year is it like a leap day thing I got it it's the doctor oh she didn't give birth she just birthed wrong really oh are you going to tell us is that right or wrong okay okay so the answer is based they're they're triplets because they're not oh come on oh come on you know what i give this one to rob or not not not give us the final answer it was the doctor and roger just looked at him i'm like is that correct is that actually is a very good guess So the third was a daughter There were triplets They could have been quadruplets Yes, quadruplets But they were not twins That brings up a semantic question though If there are triplets And you're looking at two of them Do you call those two twins? Because if you call them triplets You're only looking at two of them So here's the real thing My father-in-law who I'm visiting today Is a triplet One of his brothers is an identical twin And the other one is a fraternal twin. This would have met the criteria for this riddle. I didn't know triplets could ever be anything but fraternal. So there are twins in that triplet, but only two of them are twins. Oh, that's so interesting. That's crazy. They're all triplets, but only two of them are identical twins. That's crazy. And the third is a man or a woman. Fraternal, yeah. Yeah, there's three boys. Two are identical. One isn't. It would have been even weirder if it was, yeah, because you can be fraternal and be male and female. Well, you have to be. You can't be identical and male and female. Riddle three, you're in a room with two doors, and this is a very popular one. One leads to freedom, one leads to death. Two guards stand there. One always lies. One always tells the truth. You may ask only one question. What do you ask? Len? I know. You ask the person who lies, I want to go through the room to death. He can't. He'll lie and say this is the room. So you know that the other one is freedom. Oh, see, I was thinking the opposite. I was thinking you ask the one that always tells the truth. But you don't know which one is which. But you don't know which one tells the lie and which one tells the truth. Oh, I thought you did. There are two guards. You know one of them always lies and you know one of them always tells the truth but you don know which guard is which So I would ask the guard that tells the truth which But you don't know. You don't know which guard is the one that tells the truth. And you can only ask one question. What question are you going to ask to either of the guards? Yes. And you're getting an answer from both guards, right? But you only get to ask one question. You get one question that you can ask to either one. What's the one question you would ask to give you— Am I on the right track where you're asking the question, which door is the door to death? Yes. Yes. You're on the right track. That is the answer. That is the right track. That's the question you ask. Rob, do you already know the answer to this? Yes. But I'm going to give it to Lynn because Lynn said it first. Okay. Okay. So you ask the question, which door leads to death? And then the one... But you don't know who's lying. If you say which door leads to death, the person lying will point to the other door and the person telling the truth will point to the other door. So they'll both point to different doors and you don't know which one of them is telling the truth. So you ask, you go to one of the people because you can only ask one question. Does this door lead to death? If the answer is true and the person that you ask tells you the truth, then they'll tell you, yes, it does. if the answer is no it does not the person who is lying to you will tell you that no it does not so so either way if you ask what door leads to death you'll get the right answer close very close you're very close how do you get the right answer with the liar though so so okay i'll i'll tom sarah you you have nothing that you don't you don't want to put in an answer I mean, I'm trying to add something. We'll give you an answer if we have one. Yeah. Okay. All right. I feel like maybe there's like a twist here where like you have to have – Rob and Len are very close. You ask one question to one of the guards. What would you ask them if you were – if you wanted to answer it and kind of basically get both their answers from one question? what if you ask the liar like but you don't know which one's the liar this door you don't know you don't know the liar so i just i literally go to i go whichever one i feel like asking say does your door lead to death to death i'll either get yes it does or no it doesn't but both of those tell me information that i now know which door i want to go through how do you know though because if i ask the liar does your you don't know it's whether it's a liar or not yeah it's like princess bride stuff yeah but if if i ask the guy that's telling the truth does your door lead to death he'll say yes because he's telling the truth if i ask the liar does your door lead to death he'll say no because he's lying but you don't know which one's the liar right but but it doesn't matter i still know the answer there's there's two doors just remember so it's no but this is thing you're You're very close. What if both of the guards are identical twins? What if you try to hire the guards away? I don't know who the liar is. This is like one of the old ones that they used to give out in those weird ideas. I don't know. This is a twist. Why don't you tell us the answer? The answer is this. You asked the guard. If you were the other guard, which door would you pick that would lead to freedom, right? And you would pick the opposite door. So if it was the honest guard that you ask, he would tell you which door the lying guard would give you to pick, and you would choose the opposite door. If you go to the lying guard, he's going to lie and give you the answer that's opposite of what the honest guard would give you. So you pick the opposite of his answer. So you'd always get out. You've added additional steps that are necessary there. If I go to the guard, it doesn't matter which guard I go to. If I ask a guard, does your door lead to death? If it does and the person is truthful, they will say, yes, it does. But you don't know if he's truthful or not. They might be the liar. You have to know whether the guard you're talking to is the truth teller or not. Roger, what is the question you're asking again? You're in a room. You're in a room. I'm going to move on to riddle four. No, no, no. What's the question you're asking to one of these? We've already solved it. You go up to either of the guards and you say, if you were the other guard, which door would you say goes to freedom? and then you will go through the opposite of whatever that guard says and the reason that works is the liar is going to lie and say oh that guard would point to the death door which he would not if it's the truth then the truth teller will go oh well that guard would point to the death door because he's a liar and so whatever one they point to is the death door meaning you need to go it through the other door. I'd be dead. I'd be dead. I remember our question. Give us another super sticker, thanks to all that. I love it. All right. Riddle number four. This one will be fun. You see a boat full of people, yet when you reach it, you find there's not a single person on board. How? They all got a mirage. Wait, what did Sarah say? How are you reaching the boat? You see a boat full of people? It's a mirage. By the time you get there, everybody got off. You see a boat full of people, yet when you reach it, there's not a single person on board. Oh, it's still full of people. They're all married. There's not just a person. They're all married. They're all married. Boo. Man, that skates close to the line. So who do I ask about the door? How far away am I from the boat? Let's think Titanic. Which one of these guys on the boat is lying? How many of these people are triplets? Yeah. Riddle number five. You know, that last question, the question about the doors was actually in a book about Star Trek. And Kirk was asking a lying alien. I don't know. I should remember that one. Oh, yeah. No, I've heard that one before, too, and I could not remember the answer. I would die. So everybody's married on the boat. Great. Great for you. All right. Riddle number five. Wow. I speak without a mouth and hear without ears. I have no body, yet I come alive when called. What am I? The wind. Very close, Tom. Very close. This is a sphinx riddle. I speak without a mouth. I hear without ears. I hear without ears. I have no body, yet I come alive when called. I'm AI. Someone called. Someone came alive when called. It's a line. It's a phone. It's Roger's phone. It's Roger's phone is the answer. It's got to be. Actually. Is he taking a call? It does speak without a mouth. This is not a terrible idea. Oh, you know what? It's a phone. It's a smartphone. No, this is a Sphinx riddle. This is really old-fashioned. Well, it does. It comes alive when you call. Well, I feel like AI is... I think I should get a point. It hears. The smartphone hears without ears. Tom was on the right track. Wind. It's something like that. No, very close. With wind? Flatulence. When you – it's something you – it had to deal with canyons. Canyons. I speak it out of my mouth and I hear – Yes, Tom got it. Oh, nice. Oh, an echo. I said smartphone. Oh, wow. All right. Riddle number six. The more of me you take away, the larger I become. What am I? A hole. Tom got it. Wow, nice. You're going to get us out of this escape room, Tom. I'm going to get us out of this thing that becomes larger the more we take away from. All right. Riddle number seven. Okay. I have towns, but no houses. I have mountains, but no trees. I have water, but no fish. What am I? AI. That's your answer for everything. Well, I mean, it kind of works. Smartphone. Len's like It's a smartphone I have towns but no houses Mountains but no trees Is it a map? Water but no fish Tom got it It's a map You know what? Lots of maps have houses on them Depends on the map And trees I'm vetoing question 7 Riddle number 8 I am heavy forward, but backward I am not. What am I? Me. I am heavy forward, but backward I am not. I got a tummy, but no butt. Rob, I think you're muted. That was what people told about. That's how people described me in high school. Heavy forward, but backward you're not. No. I am heavy forward, but backward I am. No, I'm not. I don't think so. Okay, okay. I was just mouthing the question out. I am heavy forward, but backward I am not. What am I? I don't know. A fish? I am heavy forward, but backward I am not. Clearly AI. A push. Hydronium? I don't know. I am not. Backward. I am heavy forward but backward I am not A ton Yes, Rob got it What is it? It's a ton A ton Backward it's not See, those are the kind of riddles I'm like, that's just a pun I don't know if that's a riddle That is a riddle No, it is a riddle The solution is a little sus Riddle number nine A man builds a house with all four sides facing south And a bear walks by What color is the bear most likely to be? White. You can't have four sides facing south. Yes, you can. It's a polar bear. Polar bear built on the south pole. Rob and Len got it. If you're directly on the north pole, everything is south of you, no matter what side you want to do. Yeah, whatever direction you want to do. Well, no one's going to ask you what color the bear is anyway. It'd be like, oh, a black bear. Roger just did. A brown bear. Gray bear. Can I have a grizzly in the north pole? I was like, wait, you can't have all four sides facing south. Yeah, but that was the solution. Sorry, I guess everyone's been to the North Pole. One place in the world where it's possible. That's right. Okay, the last, riddle number 10. This is the one that came out of a Bazooka Joe comic. Ah, nice. I am the beginning of eternity, the end of time and space, the beginning of every end and the end of every place. What am I? The letter E. See? You read the same Bazooka Joe comic as I did. I spent a lot of time with Bazooka Joe. Yes, I actually had that one. I think they only had like 100 different ones, so you were bound to get – if you ate a lot of bazooka, you were bound to get all of them. Thank you, Bazooka Joe. Thank you. And like no one knows under the age of 45 what a Bazooka Joe is. And people were telling you you were wasting your time. I knew what that was, but I didn't read these riddles. Oh, yeah. These kids, these days. We had bubble gum with the whole comic in the bubble gum. It was awesome. Bazooka Joe taught you something. Yeah. That's back when you could buy actual cap guns and they made trucks out of metal that rusted if you left it out in the rain. Yes, yes. Those were the days. Those were the days. I'm annoyed, but this was fun. I could have went for the more gruesome ones. I had a whole set of murder ones, but I thought that might be a little too intense. Yeah, let's do that one. Let's do murder riddles next week. Yeah. Yeah. What's not to like? It's fun. That's a fun one. This was actually really fun. Roger, I think we all learned a little something today about ourselves. Thank you very much. All right. Moving on to people who travel. Chris Christensen is obviously a very big traveler. And if you find yourself staying at places with convenient power outlets, he might have just the gadget for you. This is Chris Christensen from Amateur Traveler with another Tech in Travel Minute. One thing that I always pack in my carry-on bag when I travel is the Anker Nano Charging Station. And this is a travel surge protector, which lets you plug in just into one plug, which might be hidden behind the bed in a hotel room or wherever they want to hide the plugs. And if you're traveling internationally, it works with all the different voltages around the world, so you just have to have one plug adapter. And then into that, you can plug two normal US plugs, but also you can plug in two USB-A and two USB-C plugs. And so I find that I can have all my devices plugged in and only have to carry one plug adapter. This is the Anker Nano Charging Station, and I'm Chris Christensen from Amateur Traveler. Look at that. Solving problems. That's a great idea. Well, Len Peralta, even though you were very good on our Roger Riddle this week, what have you been drawing throughout the show? Well, you know, the top story, I am Len Peralta from Cleveland, Ohio, drawing the top tech stories. And you can't say that it was the top tech story, of course, was Tim Cook stepping down as the CEO of Apple. So thank you, Tim Apple. he was from 2011 to 2026 that's a little nickname and he's got Apple for a head he's Tim Apple even where war got bent out from one side so his glasses would fit a lot of people don't realize that both Tim Cook and Tim Apple will be stepping down in September I'll miss Tim Apple he's a pretty nice guy if you want to honor Tim Cook or Tim Apple you can go to my online store, LenBeraltaStore.com, where you can purchase this immediately, or you can go to my Patreon, Patreon.com forward slash Len. Back me at the DTNistLover level, and you'll get this immediately. It should be there in a few minutes. Fantastic. Thank you, Len, and thank you, C-Spawn, just gave us a super sticker right before we started talking about that stuff. Thank you again, Lemon or Rainbow, for two super chats earlier in the show. Super chat and a super sticker. uh big thanks to everyone oh oh look at that look at that more people piling in with the super stickers uh and thank you to everyone who supports us on twitch uh looking back over the last week we had a resubscribe from razin tom says go chiefs pc milesy at 62 months brian m64 at 53 months what's that roger i just said get out of here oh there's lynn uh theater monkey uh for 78 months I know, get out of here everybody this is great what did we have today? we had a hype train, we had Zoe with a 115 stream streak G. James B. with a 65 stream streak and thanks for the bits Zoe, thanks to everybody who supports us in all the various ways including patreon.com slash DTNS and hype points if you're a YouTube person, you get hype points they don't cost you anything but you can give them to us and that helps other people discover the show. So please use the hype points on YouTube if you can. Appreciate it. For more news, you know what to do. DailyTechNewsShow.com. This week's episode of DTNS Live was created by the following people. Host Rob Dunwood. Host Sarah Lane. Host Tom Merritt. Producer Roger Chang. Video producer Joe Kuntz, producer at large and brand new grandpa Anthony Lemos Yay! Social media producer and moderator Zoe Detterding Our mods, Beatmaster, Wscottis1 BioCow, Captain Kipper, Steve Glorama Paul Reese, Matthew J. Stephens and J.D. Galloway. Mod and video hosting by Dan Christensen. Music provided by Martin Bell and Dan Luters. Art by Len Peralta Acast ad support from Tatiana Matias. Patreon support from Bobby Wagner. Our guest this week was Chris Christensen and thanks to all our patrons who make the show possible. This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this program.