ROYAL, SEND

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. and a valuable community. ASR does it. So, now you can listen to your podcast. BBCNL, the place for the best British misdaad series. Just on your Netherlands TV. to Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, so consider whether or not the controversy surrounding him represents a serious threat to the British monarchy. Of course, you'll have heard as well that the government's considering introducing legislation to remove Andrew from the line of succession. He is currently eighth in line to the throne. He's already been stripped of his titles, of course. The king has said that the law must take its course. So if there were a change to that line of succession and he was removed from it, would that make a difference? in your mind. 03700 100 444. The other issue that was discussed last night, which has certainly concentrated your mind, is the special educational needs issue. Send special educational needs and disabilities to give it its full title, the system in England, which could face a radical overhaul from 2029. And this is based on a leak at the moment of government material. Children with education, health and care plans could be reassessed after leaving primary school. Now, the number of people with children in that situation has nearly doubled since 2017. And there are many people who are saying the current system is struggling to cope. Now, we will get those details published next week. But if you're a parent, if you're a teacher, you may be a former SEND student. It'll be interesting to hear from you on your hopes for what might change, your concerns over what might change. And there's so much talk about money and council funding in this context. So if you have served on a council, maybe you're close to the workings of budgets within councils, 03 700 100 444. A reminder, you can WhatsApp a message to us. You can leave voice notes as well. You can email any.answers at bbc.co.uk and you can text 84844 as well. Let's go first to the phones in North Wales to talk about Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor. And Susan Evans is on the line. Susan, good afternoon. You're our first caller. Welcome. Good afternoon. Good afternoon to you. What do you want to say on this and whether particularly this line of succession, if it's changed, will make any difference in your mind? Well, first of all, I admire the king for the way he's acted. I think that's commendable. It really is. because, let's face it, it's his brother and he stripped the titles away. But when it comes to thinking ahead to what might happen, I think the government would actually help the king by making a decision which the king doesn't have to make. I think the king has made enough decisions and I feel so sorry for him. Do you get what I'm saying? Yes, so you want the government to do something about this line of succession issue, do you? Only when it has been proved. Right. Right, eventually. Yeah, I mean, it's important to point out, as we no doubt will on several occasions during this conversation, that as yet Andrew is not guilty of anything and he has denied everything that he's been accused of. But if we get to the point where there is some kind of clear guilt here, you say that's when the government should act. Yes, yes. And I'm a real, I really support the monarchy. And that would take that decision away from the king, because as I said at the beginning, he's had to make some awful decisions regarding his brother. And this would take that away from him, because let's face it, he's had a lot to put up with recently with his illness. Indeed. Are you comfortable more broadly with the hereditary system that we can't? Yeah, I am. I'm quite happy with that. Divine right of kings, gosh, yes. This is an unusual situation for the royal family, let's face it. Yeah, but I mean, the reason I ask that is you're comfortable with it, you support it, but here we are in a situation where you're prepared to make an exception. Absolutely, yeah. I don't think I would fancy... I'm a monarchist, but I wouldn't fancy a King Andrew. Is there anything in your mind that wonders about what's gone on prior to the most recent news coverage? I mean, Anne McElvoy, during the programme that we've just heard again, was questioning to an extent whether other things could have been done more quickly by the royal family prior to the most recent headlines. Yeah, well, I don't know. they are apart. The monarchy is apart from the rest of us. And it must have been very difficult. They probably didn't know what to do. Well, regarding certain decisions. Indeed. Susan, thank you for kicking us off. I'm just reading lots of text messages and comments coming in as you talk. Liz in Ludlow says if Charles William and Kate weren't so popular, the monarchy could crumble. However, I think the majority of people will want the monarchy to survive. John Robertson in an email says we need a tougher head of state service that's dedicated to democracy and human rights. David Kershaw in Spain is not keen. When we dismantle the monarchy, we can regain our dignity and become a modern democracy with accountability, he says. Will Forrest in Dawlish in Devon. Will, good afternoon. Good afternoon, Julian. I thought the lady who just spoke from North Wales, I thought she spoke very well indeed. And I would echo her sentiment. The only thing I would add to that is I disagree with the call that was made last night in the discussion for there to be a public inquiry for a number of reasons. First of all, a public inquiry would cost a huge amount of money and put a lot of money into the pockets of people that are already very wealthy. We've already got what's called the public inquiry industry. And also the other thing is, when there's a public inquiry taking place, it actually hampers the police from their investigation. Well, that point was raised. I mean, it was raised, you're right, in the programme. But I think it was Leila Moran who put forward the idea in the first place. But when she clarified it, she suggested that that would follow the police inquiry. inquiry so the police could do their work and then you maybe ask some wider questions well what she actually said was she she thought it could go and someone else on the panel said they thought that that any case to answer should be established by a police investigation which should then be taken to the which should then go to court if there was sufficient evidence and the um mrs moran said oh she thought it should go alongside the court so that's so naive because that would just hold the police back and as I say I think it would the amount of money involved in an inquiry would be such a waste of public resources and I think this is one of the reasons one of the reasons why I support Reform UK because they would be much more sensible with how our money is spent. Just on that last point though, if we don't have a public inquiry of whatever form and whenever it happens, will it not leave in some people's minds questions about what was known well in advance of where we are now? Well, I mean, as I say, I think it's for the, I think every cooperation should be given to the police in their investigations. And it would appear that this cooperation from the palace is forthcoming. And then if there is sufficient evidence. It can go to court and then it can be, you know, looked at, you know, in a very precise and forensic sort of way by the court. Public inquiries, they don't usually come up with much of a conclusion. They very rarely come up with a conclusion that is acted upon. As one of your panelists said, it's almost as bad as a Royal Commission. But on top of all that, it costs a huge amount of money and we desperately need that money for other things. Thank you, Will. Will Forrow in Dawlish. We'll take a few more calls on this. We will talk about Send after that because lots of you want to. Peter Gaxels in Haywoods Heath in mid-Sussex. Peter, go ahead. Good afternoon. Well, it seems to me that this Andrew thing has put that complete nail in the coffin of the hereditary principle. I mean, over the last thousand years, you can count on the fingers of one finger a good king or a good monarch. I suppose Elizabeth, given the original Elizabeth. Well, I think most people would would recommend that the second Elizabeth was quite good at what she was doing as well. Well, only because she managed to keep all the mistakes out of the press by, you know, the usual kinds of pressures and the fact that the press are not prepared to criticise or haven't been in the past, haven't been prepared to criticise the monarchy in any way whatsoever. So we've never found out what's gone wrong anyway. That an interesting point though because do you now think I mean I sense from what you saying that you not a big fan of the institution But are we now entering a period do you think where if there has been a reticence in the press to properly scrutinise and to ask searching questions of the monarchy as an institution do you think that is now going to change Well, I jolly will hope so, put it that way. I mean, part of my problem with the royals is that they're not very bright. I mean, they're thick as bricks, most of them. You know, Charles, because of the protection of his mother, has written all these little notes in green writing to the government. He's virtually destroyed British architecture because he doesn't like anything remotely modern. Suddenly, some of the press, at least, and the media are prepared actually to look in for things. and even then, you know, when they put in freedom of information requests, the monarchy has enormous power to stop that happening. What about the issue of tourism, that people will come to this country because of the monarchy and the trappings that come with it? That brings money in. It's about history. It's about tradition. Do any of those arguments have any significance in your mind? No, not at all. None at all, not even the money. I think the most visited building in the world is Versailles. And France, as far as I know, hasn't got a king and hasn't had for some time. No, and it was quite abrupt in dealing with it when it did have one. I wouldn't get rid of ours in that particular manner. The fact is, France has more tourist attractions than we do. So the monarchy doesn't make that much difference. Perhaps people will be able to go and see the whole of Buckingham Palace, not just the tiny little bits that are allowed at the moment. Perhaps people would be allowed to go and see the painting collection that's in the royal palace that's mostly hidden from view. That would attract people, I'm sure. Good to have you on the programme. Thank you for the call. A couple more messages. I hope the monarchy will survive, says Zoe. Charles and William are serious-minded people who care about world and social problems. Catherine emails and says if they changed the eligibility for women to inherit the crown, to include Princess Anne and her descendants. That would move Andrew much further down the line. That is true. Alison writes, not defending Andrew if he's guilty, but nothing has been proven yet. Innocent until such a time, surely, she says, which reiterates that point that I made a moment ago. One more on this. Rosamund Millers in Farnham in Surrey. Rosamund, welcome. Hello. And your point on this? My point is that it would be a total waste of time to try and spend parliamentary time taking Parliament... The succession is what you're thinking about, isn't it? Yes, trying to, yes, taking Andrew off the line of succession because he's eighth, eighth. Eight in line. Yes. So realistically, it was never going to be King Andrew, was it, is what you're saying? No, never. And anyway, he's got to go through a court of law and if he's made guilty, then he goes to prison and he'll never become king. So I think it's a waste of time and we need to wait. And there are many, many more important bills that Parliament needs to consider. And they need to spend more time in Parliament debating and far fewer empty spaces on the benches. Do you have any doubts about the monarchy as an institution as a result of all of this? Well, I think the monarchy is, well, it's got to work much harder, I think, to be a viable institution. Okay. Rosamund, thank you so much for coming on the line. Rosamund Miller and Farnham in Surrey. Thank you for your calls on that subject. Quite a lot came in, as you would imagine. However, more arguably have come in on education. So we want to turn our attention now to this send issue with regards to what the government is expected to publish next week, quite early, possibly at the beginning of the week. This is with regards to the system in England, which could face a radical overhaul. This is the system relating to special educational needs and disabilities, with the suggestion being that from 2029, children with education, health and care plans could be reassessed after leaving primary school before they go on to secondary school. It's worth just reflecting actually on the comments of one or two senior figures, former figures within the Labour Party who've gone public today with encouragement to their MPs that are currently sitting in Parliament to support the changes. These are five former Labour education secretaries who've called on the party's MPs to support changes to the provisions, leaked documents suggesting that children in England could have their right to support reviewed when they move up to secondary school, as I was saying. Those five, David Blunkett, Estelle Morris, Charles Clarke, Ruth Kelly, Alan Johnson, they all served under Tony Blair, have said this was, quote, a once in a generation chance to change a broken system for good. Michelle Graffanino is on the line from Bristol. Good afternoon, Michelle. What's your connection to Send? Hello, so I was a teacher and now trained teachers at the University of Bristol but I also have a child with an educational healthcare plan will be in the first cohort in 2029 transitioning to secondary school Right, so that's a useful background for us What are your hopes, what are your concerns if these changes turn out to be as published at this stage? Yeah, so before his educational healthcare plan he was struggling He's a very anxious child and he wasn't able to access the curriculum. So he's now quite behind. But with an educational health care plan, the funding has enabled him to have a teaching assistant. And he's thriving currently where he is. He is only year three. As a secondary school teacher, I was already really anxious about that transition from primary to secondary. And if some of the support surrounding these children, the provisions which they get currently, is changed, I think a lot of children will really struggle and the data shows us that so many children are missing school because needs are not currently being met. It also took four years to get his plan in place. I was about to get on to that because that's clearly one of the current complaints over the system that it takes so long, doesn't it, for you to arrive at the point where you have got something that's reasonably concrete in place. Yeah, so for that to be taken away, it would be absolutely heartbreaking for many parents, but also many teachers, because without his teaching assistant, I don't think he would be able to access school, to be honest with you. So it put a lot of extra pressure on teachers as well. And as we know, the rate of teachers leaving as well is also worrying. You'll be aware of some of the arguments about the bigger picture here. There was a National Audit Office report which talked of the system being broken, and this was partly based on the finances, because the council's projected spend of £14.8 billion on send this year has gone up from £5 billion a decade ago, which suggests that something is seriously wrong, doesn't it? Yeah, they either didn't forecast the spend correctly. And I wouldn't say there's increasing need. I would say I've been a teacher since 2008 and I would say that the need in the classrooms is the same. One thing which I would say is that the system is so broken and we are teaching in a way which is not designed for the children of the 21st century. It's still very much a spanking system, which lots of authors and researchers show isn't currently working. And the way which education needs to change could then support all children to thrive. Right. But I mean, if it's broken, then they're right to look at it in detail and try and get it right, aren't they? Completely, completely. And it's a great place to start with the SEND system and with this white paper. And if they get it right, it's fantastic to support all these children. And I think it's a great opportunity for Year 6 parents, guardians, teachers and the children themselves to sort of voice what they need for that transition. It could be a fantastic opportunity. And I think that's really important. it's to be reviewed, not removed. So hopefully if they get this right, it could really help alleviate a lot of the anxieties around that transition, that phase transition. Thank you so much, Michelle, for kicking us off on this. So many of you want to have your say on it. Chris Horgoods in Denmark. Chris, good afternoon. I mentioned the cost of all of this. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead, Chris. I'm not against SEND as such. I just think that when it's reviewed, It ought to be looked at against the whole needs of the education system, because SEND is so hugely, hugely expensive. As you've just said, 14 and a half billion pounds. And there is really a need. When children move from primary to secondary, there ought to be a reassessment of whether they actually still need. Your caller from Bristol has a special needs child who has a full-time teaching assistant. Just imagine the sheer cost of that. But if that's needed for the well-being of a child, not just Michelle's child, but other children as well, isn't the system obliged to try and provide that? Well yes but her child may get to secondary school age and no longer be anxious So there a good reason I mean, children who've got ADHD or autism or who are anxious and have very, very costly support at a primary school because of that, they may have matured in a way in which they no longer need that when they go into secondary school. So the reassessment in your mind would be a good thing? I believe so, and I think that should... But the review should take into account whether the huge amount of money which is being spent on send, some of it could be spent better on improving the whole education system for all pupils right up to, let's say, age 18. Have you worked in this area yourself, Chris? I've worked in residential care with adults with learning difficulties. Right, so that informs what you're saying now in terms of those people and the kinds of help they needed. Pretty much so, yes. Thank you very much for the call. Let's just have a look at some texts and emails before I go back to the phones, which are busy. A lot of parents do not take responsibility. This is from an anonymous head teacher for their children's needs and expect schools with decreasing budgets to solve all their children's problems. Another anonymous contribution to the lady who raised concern about the quote over diagnosis. It's imperative for individuals mental health that autism or ADSD is diagnosed and that numbers are capped. ADHD, I should say. I know you want to listen to your podcast, so I'll keep it short. Because if you think it's important to make a duroze keuzes, can ASR help? Well, I think, how then? Well, for example, when you're doing a lot of things that you love, you're doing. Will you know more about the insurance where a duroze schadetherexthel can be? Go to asr.nl slash duurzamekeuzes. This does ASR for you and a duroze sameness. ASR does it. So, we can now listen to your podcast. Just on your Netherlands TV. Just to clarify that for people listening, that's the Education Health and Care Plan, because there are so many sort of little abbreviations in all of this. Yeah, so the Educational Health Care Plan, which is the one that they're saying that possibly should be reassessed when the child changes from primary school to secondary school. Just on a note of a previous caller, I agree with a lot of what the first parent said, because obviously she's been through the system, as I have, to get the EHCP. Just the point raised by the gentleman who said that the child needs to be re-looked at when they get to secondary school. In many cases, particularly with anxiety, the need for the extra help is more or less bound to go up when they reach secondary school stage, just because if they've managed to hold it together through primary school just about, which is what happened with my son, his needs were not noticed. Although, you know, I did raise a lot of concerns throughout primary school. So he didn't actually receive his diagnosis of autism and then his EHCP off the back of that until he was 12. And so it took me nearly two years to get to that point. You know, his needs went off the scale when he went to secondary school because he ended up in a large mainstream secondary school, which at all points was totally overwhelming. Right. I mean, I was about to ask you on that subject. I mean, I was assuming that was the reason. It's a combination of the environment which gets busier and bigger and there are more people around. But obviously, as you get older as well, life tends to get more complicated in lots of other ways too, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a double whammy of them reaching, you know, getting into their teenage years as well. But specifically on if they do end up in a large mainstream school and the one he went to was very, very good, I have to say that. And they did really, really try to meet his needs in every way that they could, the special needs department. it's just it's not just the size of the school and the noise of the school it's changing classes it's changing teachers many teachers have very very different teaching styles you know it's the whole it's the whole situation so I'm not saying that the system does not even need an overhaul that's not what I'm saying because it absolutely does the system is broken I think anyone who's been through this system is extremely, extremely stressful for parents and children and has an effect on the whole family. People who've had to go through this, it also does favour more parents who are more able to get through that system. And have the wherewithal and support to do that. Just on the mainstream school point, I mean, this was remarks of ministers who've had various meetings with parents over recent months. I'm reading, ministers have reaffirmed their intention to push for more children's SEND needs to be met in mainstream schools. When you hear that, what do you think? It really fills me with enormous concern because, yes, in the best possible world, that would be fantastic. But it's just not it's just not possible. Well, these EHC, these educational health care plans, with all their faults and the whole system and the staffing needs and in terms of, you know, just getting through the council system, which is a total nightmare. Of course, there's a lot of faults involved in that system and it does need updating. But they are individually made for each child and their needs. That's the whole point of them. Every single child who has neurodiversity, whether they have ADHD, many, many other spectrum of needs, they, with inside that, they can't just be dealt with, say, for example, my son, another child with autism, because those methods do not work for him because he also has pathological demand avoidance. And so you have to have something that absolutely works for that child themselves. Yes, there's a reason it's called an individual support plan, isn't there? Yeah, so the child cannot be met by generalised TAs as hard as they try. They need to be specialist people. And if my son hadn't gone through his EHCP, which, as I said, took two years to get to, if he hadn't gone to a special school through that, which had specialist trained staff who were able to pretty much make an education plan to suit him, and it took him a long time easy to go back. What I didn't say is he started school refusing a secondary school and he pretty much didn't have any education for two years because he would not go to school. He couldn't go to school. And the number of parents going through this, I can't say how stressful it is. And I just have to say that, I know you've got lots of callers, I have to say that if I have to speak up for these parents who are going through this because if I'd been told, If I had got my son's diagnosis and then an EHCP when he really needed it, which was probably at the beginning of primary school, or say he got it, I don't know, took him two years to get it. So he got in year four. And then I was told that when I got to, he got to secondary school, I would have to go through that system and he would have to go through that system again. I would have just lost the will. OK, Helen, thank you so much. You're right. We have got some other calls, including Kate Holland in North Buckinghamshire. Kate, go ahead. I think you work in the teaching world. Yes, I'm a primary school teacher and I specialise in early years. And it's taken me 30 years to really crack that specialism. And I'm now being asked to teach children on a far broader range of needs than ever before. You would always expect to have a range of ability and need in your class. That goes without saying. but the severe special needs are now being given places in mainstream reception classes means that I'm not really doing my job for any of them but that's how I feel I mean I'm trying as hard as I can and I have all I want really from the white paper next week is to see that the trainings in place for all of us and I don't think that that's possible. I really believe that children with severe special needs should be taught by special needs teachers. Because break that down I mean if you've got 30 years experience and you're finding it more challenging now for all the reasons you've just outlined clearly your fear is that somebody with much less experience than you have will just be overwhelmed by this without a doubt without a doubt i mean my job i teach children to read and to write and to count they crack the code with me and i think you could even ask quite a lot of year one year two teachers they wouldn't know how i do that in reception that's how specialist it is and they have their specialisms in key stage one in key stage two and beyond severe special needs children that need something totally different cannot get that in the mainstream classroom it's busy it's noisy at times there's a lot of people it can be very overstimulating we perhaps don have the right resources or the space or the comforts or we don of a sensory room in our school So I think that it been years of neglect There are less places in special needs schools and we need more. I don't know why we need more. Well, I was about to ask you that. Why do you think we need more? I have no idea. What's the story behind the growing figures more generally here, do you think? I don't know. And that would take a lot of people who are interested in that kind of research to work out. But I will say that I'm now teaching children that were born, I think, in COVID. Now, if I was a parent that was having to work with small children at that time, I don't know what I would have done. am I teaching children that haven't had that communication in language because their poor parents were trying to juggle everything work parenting I don't know I can't answer that no no fair point I thought I'd raise it just to see whether you had a theory or indeed expertise in that area because you're right it's one of those issues that probably requires an entirely different program on an entirely different day with many hours spent examining it thank you Kate for the call Kate Holland in North Buckinghamshire to text and emails. This is an anonymous message. Mainstream schools need flexibility and funding to develop a range of provisions that support all children within their local schools. So that's back to that mainstream issue we were talking about a moment ago. From an anonymous text, I have two children both developed further needs by being shoehorned into the mainstream system. It doesn't seem right to spend thousands to prop up a child in mainstream. another anonymous contributor why can't parents pay for their kids education from an angry taxpayer well I guess because in many cases people can't afford to do that let's go back to the phones where are we Katya sorry Leslie Parker in Devon Leslie go ahead hello good afternoon good afternoon I was special guardian to my granddaughter and she went to a village school when she started school, primary school, and they advised us to have her theft for autism. We got a diagnosis when she was eight years old and because the school, the primary school, were really good and supportive, there was a Sento there, the classes were much smaller, she came out of that school almost top of the class and we were told that when she went to the mainstream school, secondary school, the same support would be given to her. Now, nobody told us before when we got the diagnosis that we would need to go straight forward and get the EHCP. We weren't told this and, of course, we thought that her diagnosis would be sufficient. she went to the school and I think she lasted about six months, she was coming home having meltdowns, she just couldn't cope, she was totally overwhelmed with everything and in no way did the school help and she was out of school for three years trying to go in occasionally but then coming home with the meltdowns and everything else and we, it I had to get her an EHCP. So I went for that. That was two years. I had to go to the tribunal for that. Yeah. Once she got the EHCP, the school, their way of dealing with the children with autism or any other divergent, their idea was that if they couldn't stay in the class, They used to go and sit in this other room with a teaching assistant who kept an eye on them. And they just played games. Which is not really an education at all, is it? No education at all. So I couldn't support her going to that school. I thought, well, I can't do this. I've got to find her another school. So I had to go through then, go to tribunal to get her into a special school. She's been there a year. In that year, she's made up all the work that she'd missed at the previous school because of the support of the teachers. She is resident, I must say, but she's a weekly resident. And that was her choice. She used to sit at home and cry and say, why have I got autism? You know, this is ruining my life. What's revealing about the story, Leslie? and I'm going to say thank you simply because there are several others I want to try and squeeze in before the end of the programme is when the support was there, it seemed to work for your granddaughter, but when it wasn't, then that's when things went seriously wrong for her and quite quickly. Kat, you're in Manchester. Good afternoon to you. Tell us a bit about your situation here. Hi there. I'm a former SEND student and I was out of school from 11. I'm 24 now and it's only been in the last one or two years that I've been able to access education and get my GCSEs and enrolled on a vocational course. I love what the previous caller was saying. It echoes a lot with my and my family's experience of how school was. And I'm basically calling to emphasise how important receiving sent support is for young people and families and how increasing the assessment, the sheer length of time that it takes to complete these assessments, it would penalise families and children so, so greatly. yeah I mean in your case here we are you're 24 now and things have worked out but you look back to years which well clearly you must think that they were to an extent wasted I hesitate to say that but is that how you regard them yeah it's taken a lot of learning and support to understand now that my path has just taken a different route and but it it was very very difficult and I think not getting my diagnosis of autism and ADHD until I was 19 and therefore not receiving SEM support until then has meant that I think it has been quite traumatic, to be honest, and a lot of, I wouldn't say wasted, but a lot of experiences that were very, very difficult for my family and I needn't have happened if the correct support had been given. I can see that. Well, it's good to have your perspective on all of this, Katya. Thank you for the call. To Jo in Hertfordshire. Jo, good afternoon. A headteacher, I think, for a number of years. Yes, coming up to 18 years, first of all in secondary schools, turning around the same schools, and now in the middle school, which is an odd system, there aren't many of us, but just at the end of primary and the beginning of secondary. Right, OK. And if you look specifically at the send issue, what's your perspective on where we are and what might be about to change? we need to go much deeper in the look that we're doing we currently cannot afford the explosion of send need that's arrived and it is absolutely massive as i said i've worked in failing schools in secondary schools turning them around that's often where you get a drop you get a lot of 10 children i've never seen anything like this the number of children being expected to go into a mainstream school system the depth of their need is phenomenal and if we don't look at our current structures the whole thing and change it we can't afford this we really can't i've got a number of suggestions if you let me yes by all means not not not too many but certainly a few so i'd start with the system currently being measured on attainment so as a secondary head as much as you don't want to the widest thing to do is to push out as many same children as possible because although you're going to work really hard with them and they're going to make progress They may not make the GCSE qualifications or the A-level qualifications, and that's what we're judged on. A long time ago, there was something called progress and contextual value added, a much fairer system that looked at the journey. If you looked at the journey of all children, a secondary head would have less pressure to push out 10 children and would welcome them in. Have a look at are we, as an education system, a babysitting service, or are we actually looking for quality education? because there are children now who have autism needs who would benefit from a tutor in homeschooling but coming in school for social situations. So a really deep look at the needs of the children in this country and how they're changing and having a look at our system and how we support them. But we are not a babysitting service and an education service from nine to three. Some children would be best coming in from 12 to two. We need to look at their needs. Briefly, Jo, do you think the government is going to come up with something that you could be encouraged by in the coming days? It's not going deep enough. So yes, it's right to do an EHCP review. That's absolutely correct. But that happens every year. I'm really worried that they think that a 10 child who's in a primary school with predominantly one teacher in the classroom, which is much easier for them than going to a secondary school where you're going to have five, six teachers a day, movement in a much bigger system, that's not going to reduce your EHCPs. Then need is going to go up, not down. OK, Joe, we're going to have to end it there simply because the program is drawing to a close. But thank you very much for your call and indeed to everybody who's been in touch via whatever method over the last 40 minutes. Thank you so much for tuning in. Make sure you listen to any questions next week. Moord, mysterie en een accent waar je meteen voor valt. On your service, ma'am. On BBCNL you'll find the best British misdaad series. From the sun-strand of paradise... 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