Where Do I Fit In w/Matt & Oren - Just Shoot It 524

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0:53

Hey, welcome to the 524th episode of Just Shoot It, a podcast about filmmaking, screenwriting and directing. This episode is brought to you by patrons Susan and Jamie Sadler. I'm Matt Edmo.

1:33

And I'm Warren Kaplan. And today we are talking about where we fit into the world of directing as directors. Career wise. Where do we fit in?

1:43

Where do we fit in?

1:52

Yeah, but before we talk about that, I do want to talk about Jamie Sadler, one of our patrons. For a second, he hit me up and he was like, hey, you haven't mentioned me in the opening of the podcast forever. What is going on with you? And now we just mentioned him. And so I want to tell you, if you are a patron and we haven't mentioned you for a while, feel free to bug us. We do keep track of who we mentioned when and we try to mention the less mentioned people more to try to bring some parity to it. But that of course means that the older patrons, the ones that have Been with us forever. Are getting lots of mentions, so I apologize for that. If you are a patron, just send me a DM on Instagram and I will. Just tell me what you're working on. I'll mention it on the podcast. People love to hear what patrons are working on in the podcast. Right. Anyhow, that's it. We, I, I wanted to do this topic because Matt said something a couple episodes ago.

1:53

You remember when it was just so deep. Well, I say something really meaningful every episode. No doubt. But I think this was probably. It's hard to say because we've been recording a lot in the last couple episodes for sure.

2:43

I think maybe we were talking about. We were talking to Chandler Levock.

2:55

So then that would be last episode.

3:00

Yeah. Who directed like a smaller, like a quieter movie and then like a more boisterous movie. I mean, I don't know if I would say quiet, but kind of a more indie film and then more. A more studio film like back to back. And I was talking about how when I directed my kind of, you know, like very indie sign language movie that did, I think, well, by all accounts premiered at a good festival and it was on Netflix and it had a theatrical run and got me an agent and a manager and all that stuff. Like all I wanted to do after that was do like a super loud movie, you know, in my first feature, a lot of the characters.

3:02

But talkie specifically.

3:36

Yeah, well, yeah, because. Because my main character was deaf, you know, and he was kind of like combative and he didn't really talk much at all on the first act of the movie. And later on he's talking mostly in sign language. So while there is a good amount of dialogue, it's just quiet, you know, and. And it's like introspective and it's a coming of age bio. Biopic or biopic, whatever you prefer. And then I just like really wanted just nonstop wall to wall talking and energy and things moving. And to me it just seemed like a response to my first movie that when you make something kind of slow and introspective, the next thing needs to be loud and boisterous. And then maybe after that you'd go into something more genre and then you'd go into like. I guess I thought that. That all filmmakers want to do something very different on their next film. Even though we see all these filmmakers who make a lot of similar movies. Like you look at a genius like Wes Anderson and you're like, yep, that's a Wes Anderson film.

3:38

Sure.

4:29

But your observation that I thought was funny because I just never, never thought about it was. You're like, yeah, yeah, you probably just were figuring out what you like to direct. You know, you were finding out like what kind of stuff is, is your director voice. And I was like thinking about you that like you saying that. I was like, yeah, I guess maybe that is the thing because ever since then all I've directed is wall to wall dialogue with like kind of energetic, boisterous big things. And that's like kind of as a commercial director or if you go to my website, directed by marin.com.

4:29

yeah. It's all celebrities talking to a camera and then the camera pans and then they know it whip hands off and then they whip hands onto something else and they're walking and talking and you know, sashaying past the camera again.

5:01

Yeah. And I try to, you know, my favorite, favorite, favorite thing for production value is background actors, extras. Right. As I try to throw as many people as possible into a shot, try to throw in as much like foreground and background into a shot. I just like having a lot of things happening in each frame so much so that like when I did all those Popeyes spots, like they would always joke that I'm like the director that makes like a 30 second commercial fit into, into 15 seconds. And so I, yeah, I guess I, I was. It's kind of would be interesting to talk about if that's, if that's a thing. If, if you like, you know, I'm interested about where you are. Obviously you work in comedy and you've kind of have unabashedly been like a comedy guy like ever since I met you 12 years ago or however long it's been. And even, you know, obviously your first kind of major job in the film industry was a Comedy Central. But is like, do we all, the longer we work in this business end up working in the thing that. What is what our voice should be?

5:15

Well, it's interesting because, you know, as people who have been directing a lot of commercials, we are at bat way more. So you see what you win and what you don't. Right. What, what jobs you book versus what don't you don't book. And it's hyper competitive. And also our shoots are way shorter. So we're at bat more frequently. We're shooting more frequently, you know, so we're shooting a lot of stuff. So it's easier to see a pattern of what you book versus what you don't book. Right. But I do think that we are always still a product of the opportunities we are afforded. And so, you know, when I. When I first went to film school, I had no anticipation that I will be a comedy director, quote unquote.

6:15

You know, what were your, like, favorite movies going into film school?

7:01

I mean, I would say they were

7:04

probably like the Back to the Futures of the World.

7:05

Yeah, I mean, I love Back to the Future, but I also loved, like, Rushmore and Being John Malkovich. Right. Which, yeah, I would classify definitely both as comedies. I. I think that I.

7:08

They're kind of heightened reality.

7:21

Heightened reality. Quirky. Yeah, yeah. With some visual flair, I think. In anticipation of this conversation, it occurred to me that, like, the thing that was my voice that broke first, the thing that first led to real opportunities outside of Comedy Central, was my web series, Squaresville. And I can very distinctly remember, like, writing slug lines that said exterior somewhere and then writing the dialogue. And the reason I wrote that is because I was like, oh, I'm so clever. This can be a floater scene. It's between our two leads. So almost definitely they will both be on set that day. And if I have. Okay, if I can shoot five scenes in a day and four of them have to be at this bedroom interior somewhere can be bedroom two, or it can be out front in the lawn or whatever. They were just kind of, like, written to be specific in so much as the dialogue was really important, but the location didn't really matter. And I thought that that was like, a bright. By byproduct of being a resourceful producer as well. But perhaps similar to you, I was just focusing on the thing that was important to me, which was quippy dialogue

7:22

in the moment, you know, and even exterior somewhere is kind of a quippy slug line.

8:31

Sure.

8:37

Like, that could be the name of your autobiography.

8:37

Sure, yeah, yeah. It would be interior somewhere.

8:39

Yeah. Interior nowhere. No offense. Yeah, no, that is interesting. It is. You know, when I saw Chandler's movie Mile and Kicks, I was like, oh, man, Matt. This is like in the world of, like, a Matt Enlow original movie.

8:42

Sure, sure.

8:57

You know, not. Not just based on Squaresville, but also that show that you were developing with Warner Brothers, Remember?

8:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

9:05

The Mary Suze. Yeah, yeah. And you. Yeah, Kind of that world of nerdy girls and that time zone, that retro like. Like the blockbuster era is kind of like. And low 101.

9:08

Sure, sure.

9:21

But, yeah, it's funny. And I mean, obviously, I'm sure we're all, like, a product of the biggest movies that were out when we came up, like, you know, to Me, it was like being John Malkovich. And like, unfortunately, you know, Fight Club was just, like, mind boggling to me, you know, But I also grew up as a kid on Mel Brooks movies. Like, I've seen every Mel brooks movie, like, 100 times as a kid. And I think that's. Even my sense of humor comes from those movies.

9:22

Yeah, I think that, you know, not talking about that Chandler episode too much, but she used the word imprinted. Right. She was talking about Almost Famous and like, it was like a very huge part of her life. And I think that there are the films that stand out to us as young people that have that sort of light bulb moment of like, oh, a filmmaker made this. You know, I think, like, Tim Burton and Wes Anderson stand out as, like, filmmakers who are often someone's first favorite filmmaker. And I think that that has so much to do with their style being so overt that you realize a person made that movie. Right. And so, you know, you know, I loved Tim Burton movies, but I haven't loved a new Tim BURTON Movie in 20 years.

9:47

Yeah. I will say I loved Wednesday, the TV show. And I do think a lot of it is because Tim Burton. Yeah, maybe he. He can capture whimsical worlds in a way that's both scary and comforting, you know, I don't know.

10:37

Sure, sure. Yeah. And. And I think that there's, you know, there's always interesting things you can find in filmmakers work as you unpack them. Right. But what I'm getting at is, like, if you'd asked me 25 years ago, what makes a Tim Burton movie a Tim Burton movie, I'd probably be like, big ass eyes and pale skin.

10:54

Right.

11:12

Is probably what I would start with. In the same way that, like, Wes Anderson movies, I would say, like, dolly moves in cardinal directions and twee, you know, wardrobe. And you're not wrong. But, like, that's not what makes a movie a movie. Right. And so, like, you know, Oren, I feel like you oftentimes describe things that are in student films, and I'm like, that's not actually in student films. But the thing that is in student films is, like, cribbing those overt stylistic choices.

11:13

Yeah. So like, low, super wide angle push in like a Stanley Kubrick the shining hallway shot. You know, maybe, maybe.

11:41

I think more likely you don't even have the craft to, like, figure out why that works. You know what I mean? But. But putting people in really big costumes or like, just the even more artificial versions are the things. Because we're sort of still trying to figure it out. And the way that like an illustrator learns to draw by like tracing. That's what film school often is. It's like, what's the filmic equivalent of just taking the most overt aesthetic choice and trying to do that and seeing how it sort of works or doesn't work in terms of your vision and then doing that over and over and over again. Right. And saying, okay, well actually I do like it when the camera's nice and low, or I do like the quality of a lowing, like a wide angle lens, you know, like. And eventually that becomes your style. And as commercial directors, even though we're executing someone else's creative, all of those micro decisions add up to our own voices.

11:51

Yeah, I think that is really interesting. And you make a good point about. It's easy to be like, well, Wes Anderson has a voice because he always turns. Every time he pans the camera, it's 90 degrees. Every framing is symmetrical, every move is on one axis, and they have their rules. Yet Tim Burton does super wide angles from the top corner of a room. He has super poppy color palettes and costumes and like steampunk type of aesthetic or whatever, you know. And so you think to yourself, like, well, I don't have that. I don't have Tarantino's snappy dialogue and over the top blood gushes and explosions. I don't have. You know, I'm trying to think of another director with like a very obvious thing like Greta Gerwig's. I mean, her, well, her, her voice has kind of evolved a lot, but like her old, like the Francis Haas, you know, the, like just like hyper realistic dialogue.

12:55

Messy dialogue.

13:47

Yeah, yeah. Awkward situations or whatever. Or like the Duplass brother sound like. So I must not have a voice. You know, I think that's kind of the default feeling of a director. And I have. I'm especially guilty of thinking like, well, every director does this, you know. Well, every director must, like, of course I'm gonna make a, an action movie. So every director just sits down and watches a bunch of action movies and is inspired by, you know, whatever, like, sure. Mission Impossible. Yeah, yeah. So it's like. So I feel like unoriginal all the time time, you know, but, but that thing that you said made me feel like, oh, like maybe like. I think a lot of filmmakers go from like the work that they get to the work that they like to do. And that's like kind of it's a long journey, you know, I think that probably every filmmaker is like, well, I do like industrial videos, but what I really want to do is musicals, you know, but eventually, once you've done enough jobs, and especially commercials, like you said, we pitch so many times, and we're not just pitching on the creative, but we are explaining to the people that are considering hiring us why we're the perfect person for them to hire. So the more we get those jobs, like, the more we become that person that we're, like, pitching, and the more we start getting excited by ideas like, oh, I really. I think it would be really fun to do these rolling camera transitions or whatever. That's, like the type of director I want to be. And so we'll pitch that as an element, and we'll start becoming the director that we want to be.

13:48

You know, it's really interesting because I have felt this thing recently where, like, boards will come in and I'll be like, oh, I am perfect for this. I love this so much. This is exactly my voice. It's finally. It was so great to see this. And then I'll kind of, like. Because I think process wise, we're slightly different in that, like, when boards come in, if I get an avail check, I will put together, like, a quick little thought starter reel. And it's probably too many spots, you know, you probably are. They're gonna spend four or five spots, but I'm gonna send them 12 because, oh, I thought of this or this aspect is this or whatever. And it's because I know my reel so well and because of the way my working relationship is with all of these producers. Right.

15:13

Just to clarify your. When you hear you might be considered, you're gonna be submitted for a job, you start pulling your work that you think would be the best way to pitch you for this job.

16:02

Correct.

16:13

And you might even write a couple sentences like, yeah, I've actually worked with this actor before, or, I know this location, or I'm, oh, I did this exact effect.

16:13

The reason I'm pulling this piece is for that piece and. Or for this reason or that reason. And so. But too often lately I've been like, oh, I'm so perfect for this. And then realize I don't have the real for it. Not because you like it, because I like it, but I don't. And I think I'm good at it, because there's plenty of stuff that comes in there where I was like, oh, I'd love to do that, but, like, I probably won't get this one, because, you know, it's not really what I do. Every once in a while it'll come in and it'll be the thing that I do. And because I haven't booked enough of that version of myself, I'm probably not going to book another version of it. You know, there's like that low hanging fruit of the things that make me different or the things that make me unique. Like I have a ton of like, sort of like verite, self shot, like elevated social like stuff that's like, well, we want it to be a broadcast commercial, but it needs to look like someone shot it on an iPhone. I have that in spades and I like doing that. But I wouldn't say to someone, oh, I like to add like a kind of mixed media aesthetic to my work or like I want it to feel self shot in some way. I would never describe myself as that. I think I am hyper competitive in that space, that vertical.

16:21

Specifically, I think I pitched to many times when people are looking for directors. I'm like, well, Matt kind of like really knows that world and. But you could see like the stepping, like why that would be a great body of work to pitch on. Like, hey, we're going to do this like kind of very cinematic thing where we intercut. This guy's making videos.

17:35

Sure, sure, sure.

17:54

Matt can make them authentic, you know, and understands how this person would think about making the videos. And yeah, I am. You know, I know you have a job coming up, I think at the end of this month that like, maybe like I like. Do you ever try to like, it's a job to do, let's say it's like a comedian saying funny things, but you want to get more and you want to do more Zollies or whatever. Like, do you try to like be like, oh, and then maybe for the intro shot we'll do like kind of the things that you want to put on your reel. Do you ever try to force them into things that are very much not that.

17:55

You know, I think that the. This isn't your short film, right? This is like, this is still work for hire, so it has to be appropriate. Do I constantly try to like plus things in the direction that they're aiming for? Yeah, absolutely. But it's rarely with the real in mind. Do you know what I mean? It's more just like, how do you sprint in the direction that they're asking for basically? So like the easy example would be like, oh, it's supposed to be self shot, but you know, we can use the nice big camera and stuff like that. I would be like, no, Absolutely not. We're using an iPhone, and for all of these reasons. So that's plussing it in a way that aesthetically is, quote unquote, less cinematic, but I think is more right for the vision than people necessarily realize. So it's that sort of stuff. But. But I think that it forces you to kind of look, you know, it forces some introspection because you have to say to yourself, well, why. Why do I keep looking at this work? What did these other people objectively see about my work that helps me fit in with this aesthetic and not the. The version of myself that I constructed over the years? Right. And do I lean into that or do I chafe against that? It's hard to say. Hard to know. But I think that the other half of finding your voice is acknowledging what you're great at and what other people see you as versus what you thought you were going to do in the first place or what you like, which. Which often is two different things. I think actors have a cleaver journey for that. Where, like, I think most people who decide to be an actor have a relatively inaccurate understanding of what they are the best at, basically. Or the. Or their superpower hasn't emerged yet. You know, like teaching young actors, you know, there's a lot of them that come in thinking that they're going to be the lead of something and don't realize, like, oh, no, you're like the best utility player we've ever seen, you know? And like, that's a real switch for people, you know?

18:29

Yeah.

20:43

Or like this. I don't mean to sound mean, but. But get ready, kids. I see a lot of, like, young guys who are good looking, you know, but not. Not so conventional looking that they would be an action star. You know what I mean? Like, if you think of the action stars, they're either the Rock, who is really specific. Right. Or they're oftentimes like.

20:44

Like the Chrisworth. Yeah, yeah.

21:10

But not just like Chris, like, good looking. Absolutely. And cut, like really built, really athletic, but like Pratt, Pine, Evans, Hemsworth, those guys are all like a little generic. That's why it's funny to call them the Chrises. And I see a lot of young men who want to do that work and are like, okay, well, if I have muscles, then I'll get cast as the leading man. And, you know, are more specific than that. Like, look, look a different way. And so I think they end up booking less because they. They've got funny best friend faces. And Vin Diesel. Not Vin Diesel, but like, who's more jacked than that? You know, just like Arnold Schwarzenegger bodies, you know, and then. And then you're like, well, how am I supposed to cast you now? What do I do with you?

21:13

Yeah, No, I mean, for actors, it's. It's even harder because they're. They're so not in control of the work that they do.

22:05

Absolutely. But you see, my point about, like, your self image versus what people see of you is so starkly different. And we experience. We see. See that so clearly, and we have a similar challenge, I guess, is what I'm getting at.

22:12

Yeah, I guess I. I was kind of trying to, like, find, like, to me, the positive spin like that, like, why what you said to me made me happy, I guess, is because I do feel like probably most directors, filmmakers, especially newer ones, like, feel like they don't know what their voice is. And I feel like you said to me as a little bit of permission to just realize that your voice is what you like.

22:28

Yeah.

22:52

And. And like, you know, sometimes it's like, really about a tone. Sometimes it's, like, about a visual aesthetic. Sometimes it's about. Yeah, what you like. You know, we've had directors on here that are amazing at makeup and wardrobe, you know, and that's the. And like, you. We. You and I couldn't understand why we would ever be hired over this director for a certain, like, to shoot a pop star music video or whatever, you know, unless there was some other part to the video that we were perfect fits for. But I think, I guess, like, what gives me comfort is feeling like I do have an aesthetic and a point of view, even though I can't quite identify it.

22:53

It's hard to put your finger on it. Yeah.

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New and returning staff along with fan favorites Dawson Schroeder are living and working together once again serving high end guests while navigating friendships, rivalries and temptation behind the scenes.

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And this season comes with a twist. The Villa becomes a full blown reality crossover event with guest appearances from the Bachelor, Love island, the secret lives of Mormon Wives and more, turning every stay into its own own unforgettable spectacle.

24:32

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24:57

I mean I think that if you compare Tim Burton and Wes Anderson, those are actually really good opposites in many ways, right? Like if you look at Bottle Rocket, that movie, it's handheld. There are all sorts of, you know, camera moves that are atypical that are not 90 degree turn. There's no like proscenium to it. There's no diorama vibe to it. You know, like and then Rushmore you can see like oh, it's still loosey goosey. There's still stuff that like isn't storyboarded and is a little rough around the edges. But you those there's montages Specifically, like, where Max is like, you know, the Beekeeper Society and, you know, in the Go Kart and all these things that are those little. Those classics. Wes Anderson. Right.

26:25

Because Rushmore is like, when a filmmaker that has, like a really good knack for characters and performance learns about editing and how much editing affects.

27:11

But Bottle Rocket has all that stuff too, and is really great and special as well. But I think that it's a very clear progression.

27:20

But in terms of just like, oh, if we do match cuts or if we do big wide shot, like. Like the montages that you're describing are so much more stylized and planned out. Right, sure. Yeah. In a way that Bottle Rocket feels a little more like some friends making a movie.

27:28

Right. And then by the time you get to Royal Tenant Moms, you're like, oh, okay, we get it. Everything's Paisley. Awesome.

27:47

Yeah, but.

27:53

But I don't think you. Where's Jim Burton? I think started relatively fully formed. Do you know what I mean? Like, Frankenweenie looks like a Tim Burton movie in a way that Bottle Rocket doesn't look like a Wes Anderson movie. And so I guess that's a long way of saying everyone's different in terms of where they arrive. And I would say that there's probably deeper thematic ideas that evolve over the course of many films that weren't quite so crystallized in those early works.

27:54

Yeah. I do wonder if, like, people find their voice and you mentioned student films a few minutes ago because they initially just start out by copying their favorite filmmakers and then the more things they do, the more they realize, well, I. I used to do this thing, but I don't really know why I did it or I don't really get it, but I always have liked this. I've always liked over the shoulder shots instead of clean singles or vice versa. And yeah, so I think that's interesting. And like, what. Why I wanted the title of this episode to be Where Do I Fit In? Is because I think as directors and filmmakers, and this could be just specific to me, you. I though I think you think about this a lot too, which is because we are, again, competing for a lot of commercial jobs. We're trying to get shortlisted, we're trying to win against other people. We try to very much think about where we fit into the ecosystem of this industry. Who would hire us? Like, you know, there's people to ask me every day if I have narrative projects, I have movie projects, if I have TV projects, if I have any desire to do that. And of course, like, I would do. I'd kill to shoot a TV show. You know, there's a million shows that I watch that I love, that it would be so fun to. To direct. But when I look at where I fit into the ecosystem of this industry, that seems like a really hard mountain hill to climb. But in commercials, not only do I know that I can get work, but I know, oh, if I'm pitching against this person, here are my odds. I'm pitching against this. If the budget is this, like. And when I lose a job, which my rep, Nikki Weiss, would like everyone to know. Never happens. Literally never happens. Yeah. Yeah. But when I end up not being the director that's chosen to do a job, I always ask who got it, and I then look at their work and I try to understand why they got it and why I didn't get it, you know, And a lot of times it's like, it was so close, and. And I do a lot of digging to be like, well, what was the thing that made so. And so get it over you? It's like, oh, well, they worked with this athlete before. They had this one idea that was so good that they felt like they couldn't do it unless they went with that director or something. So what dawned on me just the other day is that, you know, you. And I hire people, too. You know, for me, like, the DP decision is usually a pretty big one, and I'm usually deciding between a few different dps, and we put a lot of dps on. On hold, like on a. On a veil. And whenever I say, okay, I'm gonna. We're gonna go with Mike. Dave. Never. That ends up getting let go. Never calls me and says, like, oh, who'd you go with? And why'd you go with him? And I just.

28:23

It's because of your website, Dave. Sorry, that's a DP joke. That's not a specific Dave. I'm just joking about how DP websites are bad.

30:55

No, Dave actually has a really good website. But. But if I was a dp, I would be like, oh, who'd you hire and why? And I think there's this kind of feeling where people are afraid to say that because it will make them seem bitter or something or like, they're upset. But I think it's so useful, and you can ask it in, like, a totally honest, not. Not butthurt way. Yeah.

31:02

Yeah. Well, so, you know, I think we're slowly shifting to kind of the other point that I wanted to make on this topic. I remember now, like, there's the. If the first half of the conversation is like, oh, your voice is sort of defined by you pushing towards what works and what feels good, but you know, what clicks for you, you know.

31:23

Yeah.

31:45

And doing more of that and iterating off of that.

31:45

And people starting to know you for that.

31:48

Yeah, people starting to know you for that. You know, the other half is, is where you decide to put your energy. Right. And so, Orin, you have really optimized towards, like, okay, I'm going to be the most competitive commercial director that I know. You know what I mean? Like, and that means, okay, like, if I didn't get the job, I'm going to find out why and I'm going to ask who got it and then I'm going to look at what they did to get it, et cetera. And all of those energies lead you towards, push you in one direction. Maybe that's further away from the person you lost it from. You know, maybe you look at their, their reel and you say, I don't have that. I'm never going to have that. So I'm going to embellish the things that I do have so that when I'm up against that person again, it's a cleaver choice. And sometimes they're going to go with them and sometimes they're going to go with me. Or you say, you know, I do need more of that. So I'm going to like, on the job that I did win, make sure that I shoot something that does have the rolling transitions that that person had that I, you know, would have won me the job before. But you're, you're investing energy in that. Right. And the thing that I've really been struggling with specifically, like recently in the last couple weeks, is loving commercials and making my living in commercials and having some momentum, you know what I mean? Like, it had been dry for a long time and in the last year, it's really, it's picked up in a way that's been fulfilling and fun and, you know, and more competitive in a lot of different ways. And that's really nice. And also, I deeply care about doing commercial or doing. Look at. Talk about a Freudian slip. Deeply care about doing film. Right. Like making movies. And so, and you know, I'm a parent, all that stuff. So, like, I am. If I focus on the feature too much, I notice and my bank account notices that I haven't been hustling on commercials. And even though I feels like I, it's not that I can coast, but like, you Know, I've got, I've, I've planted enough seeds that it feels like I don't have to like grind every single day on outreach and building the reel and doing the new treatment and all that stuff. You still have to do it. It's still a full time job. You know what I mean? It's like when Jordan, not to compare myself to Jordan, but like, remember when he was like the greatest basketball player ever and then he was like, what if I went and played baseball too on the offset.

31:50

Michael Jordan, not Jordan Brady.

34:11

No, no, no, Michael Jordan though I wouldn't dare compare myself to Jordan Brady either. But you know, you're kind of like, what are you doing, man? You can only do. You're the greatest at this already. Why would you go be mediocre at another thing? And it's like I feel like it takes so much energy to be great at any one thing, but if you invest your time in that one thing, then that becomes the thing that you are known for. And what you're, what you know, what energy you're putting out is what you're getting back. That's what you're receiving as well. And so like, of course you don't have TV shows and that's not a problem for you. You love commercials and have been focusing on commercials full force. But it is this weird challenge for especially indie filmmakers that it almost always is the nights and weekends sort of gig.

34:13

Making the indie film is the nights and weekend gig. And then, yeah, they have a day job during the week.

35:00

They have a day job of some sort.

35:04

Yeah, yeah.

35:05

And maybe they're lucky enough that the day job is similar to their filmmaking endeavors, but maybe not.

35:06

Well, to just rewind a tiny bit to like the thing that I said. I'm curious, do you, are you. So do you not ask people like why you got the job or didn't get the job, why you got shortlisted or didn't get shortlisted and why you got the meeting or didn't ask the meeting is that like, is. I, I know we've been in this business for a long time, but I feel like it just evolves so fast and in so many ways and changes so much that it's always like something that would have gotten you a meeting five years ago maybe doesn't get you a meeting today.

35:13

We are often in very different bid pools now, which is new relatively speaking. Like we used to be up against each other all the time. And so, you know, for instance, if I am in a, a bid on like self shot you know, UGC style piece, like elevated. Ugc that's supposed to feel self shot. I know why I'm in the bid pool. Do you know what I mean? I feel like I oftentimes know, like, okay, it's that specific thing or this thing that I'm known for that's getting me in the mix. And so, yeah, my real. Yeah, I'm never confused about that. I ask why I won, but, you know, the difference between my experience with it and yours is like, I feel like people don't really know. Do you know what I mean? I feel like it's almost always like a version of Vibes and Real and Luck. And I think that I, I suspect that oftentimes that I can close in the room in a way that other people don't always get to, you know? Yeah, I mean, I guess it's never conclusive to me. You know what I mean? No one's ever said something and been like, oh, yeah, that exactly checks out. It's always kind of like, yeah, I guess, sure. And maybe that's me not being aware of myself, but I don't know, like, you feel like people are really clear. They're like, oh, Orin. Got it.

35:41

Because, yeah, I mean, I dig, you know, I, I'm like, I love data. You will need a. I. I'm probably, you know, if I was in high school right now, I'd probably be voted most likely to give you unsolicited feedback. Like, I give people, like, I'd say 50% of the people I meet. I'm like, hey, by the way, you know, there's a typo on your website.

36:57

Our, our friend Deb has said this to your face, so I'm going to repeat it. But a producer we both work with, and she'll always say, like, if you work with Oren Kaplan, you'll just find out all the ways you're doing it wrong.

37:16

Well, and if that bothers you, that' valid. And if you don't want to work with me again, that is also valid. But I. So, you know, I'm working on a job right now and we, we've had these name tags. You know, I posted it on Instagram and they're printed out and they have your name and your position and the name of the project. And everyone on set is like, we are loving these name tags. Which, you know, usually there's maybe like one or two people that are kind of annoyed by the name tags, but most people are like, this is so nice. And the agency yesterday was like, everyone's got name tags. I'm like, yeah, it's just. Isn't it nice? Like, yeah, we actually. Because no one introduces themselves to the agency, and they're just seeing, like, all these people walking around.

37:27

And the agency put name tags on, too.

38:07

Yeah, well, we made. We made them for everyone.

38:09

Yeah.

38:12

But the reason we have name tags is because you and I talked about Greta Gerwig having name tags, like, five years ago or something.

38:12

Probably way longer, right?

38:20

Yeah, yeah.

38:22

Like, probably closer to 10. Yeah.

38:22

And I love that idea. And I was always just kind of afraid to tell people what I want, you know, what I like. And as I got more confident and, you know, on literally live on this podcast, like, again, I'll say five years ago, who knows, when I learned that the producer is someone that, like, should be working for me, not against me. And it changed, like, my whole relationship to producers and things. And so I realized I can tell a producer, hey, these are some things I like on set. You know, the manifesto. And one of them is like, I would really love to have name tags. I like having a Bluetooth speaker where people can. We can play some music in between takes.

38:24

Do you have that as a document? Do you ever, like.

39:00

Yeah, but, you know, I mentioned it to Kelly, who also listens to this podcast and producer, Shout out, Kelly, what's up? And now this producer I'm working with right now, Brendan, who knows Kelly well. So, Kel, I also mentioned it to Terry, this other producer I worked with, and they both told Brendan. They're like, just so you know, Oren likes these things. He likes name tags on set. And there's this producer, Jeff, Canadian producer, that I worked with, that would send these, like, emails at the end of. Let's say we have a shoot in two weeks, every day send me an email. He'd be like, hey, these are the things we did today. These are your action items. You need to, like, look at locations and castings coming in tomorrow. Here's your meetings with the zoom links for tomorrow, and here's what the next seven days, like, basically every single day and until the shoot, what we're doing. And I found it so helpful that I, like, shared those emails with, like, Kelly and Terry and now Brendan and now. And I have another job with a different producer now, too, and they're both running at the same time. So I put my producers in touch with each other, Brendan and Whitney, and now Whitney is sending me those same emails. I never even told her about those emails, but Brendan told her he's like, by the way, Oren loves this. So, yes, it's. Deb's annoyed because. Because I'm like, shut up. Yeah, because of something where I'm like, deb, usually I would have, like, some insight, like input into the locations or whatever. Whatever it is, she's decided that she doesn't want my opinion on that week.

39:03

It's everything, Oren. It's everything.

40:20

But, yeah, because Deb is, like, she's obviously a very creative producer and has, like, a lot of great thoughts, and sometimes to streamline things, she'll just kind of make an executive decision that you and I are typically used to making, but she knows the client better or whatever. Yeah, well.

40:22

And I think that also, I've been thinking a lot about Carlin mentioning, like, the more she gains experience, the more producerial she's become. And I don't think I'd put as fine a point on it, but I think that's true for all of us. Right. And that the more you learn about the job, the more directing is producing, and producing is directing, you know, I think in a. In a really real sense, you know?

40:36

Well, you know, one of my favorite interviews I've ever done is with Augustine Frizzell, who made an entire feature film, that she followed all the rules and every single thing that everyone told her how things should be. And then she made the horrible film, and then she went and she remade the film again with different people, and she said, I'm calling the shots this time. And then it got into south by and got her to direct the pilot of Euphoria. They're gotten her into Sundance.

41:02

Yeah. I'm sure she would like the way you described it. I think you're. There's some creative liberties.

41:26

Quick version. Yeah. But what a lesson to learn about knowing that it's okay if you do things your way, you know? Sure.

41:32

We're getting hired to do it our way, right?

41:43

Yeah, you know? Yeah. I just. I just have this job right now where they are like, hey, Oren, we need storyboards. The client wants to see storyboards. And I was like, well, we do not have locations. Every single shot is like a walk and talk. I don't know where to put the camera. Like, without a location, a first. I have to be an architect to come up with the design. That's, like, a lot of creative capital that I need to expend just to figure out where we're gonna put the camera. Storyboards for Walk and talks are already, like, pretty hard because they're all about the camera. Move. And you're. You're like, I guess I'll show one frame here, one frame here, one frame here, and just a lot of frames.

41:45

Can I ask. Sorry, it's a technical question. How often are you essentially boarding the expressions of your host as kind of like basically a little animation and then cutting them out and then animating the camera move behind them. Do you know what I mean? I could imagine a world where you just get a drawing of the whole camera, move the background plate, and then do the foreground plate as your host. And then you have to build it in after effects rather than doing six individual frames. Basically.

42:19

Yeah. I mean, I guess if they were walking horizontally, like a lateral. Sure.

42:54

Yeah.

42:59

But if we're walking in, foreground elements are getting into the shot every second, you know, which is usually the type of shot I do.

42:59

Which again, like, it's more work. But the smart thing to do would be like, well, can you draw each of these foreground elements for me? And then I'll throw it into a 3D space and we'll do an after effects and it'll be 2D.

43:05

3D. Yeah, but I.

43:15

2 1/2D.

43:16

Yeah, but my whole point to them was like, hey, I. Why am I drawing, like, my process? First of all, they also told me very much like that we really like your reel and we like your style, and we like the way you shoot, walking, talk and. And then. And please make these storyboards before you have a location. And I was like, I actually just said this to them today. Today I said, you. You said that you like my style. It occurred to me to say to them, listen, this is my process is to go to a location with my phone and figure out where I want to put the camera.

43:17

Yep.

43:45

So I can make these storyboards for you. They're gonna be like, useless, and you're gonna start giving me notes on them that I frankly can't do anything about. I mean, like, you know, you can, but it's just you're doing like triple work and you're spending so much creative steam on something that is not like part of your process. So I've been like, more forward recently saying, like, hey, this is not how I do it. I can do it your way. For sure. It's. But what you hired me to do, this isn't the way I do it.

43:46

Yeah.

44:13

By the way, end of that story is I did still make their story where I still 62 frames for these boards that I'm going to completely redo once I. We figure out Our locations.

44:14

Yeah, yeah. It's so hard because it's like, that's really rough because you were really clear with them of like, hey, like, it. To me, it's even less about the amount of work because you like to do lots of work. I like to do lots of work. I'd rather not do stuff that's wasted. But, like, it's all part of the process is, you know, like there's going to be things that you conceive of or pitch that end up getting thrown out because of a new location or a different actor or whatever. That's okay. That's part of it. But when it's fabricated, when it's. It's kind of made up out of whole cloth, it ends up misleading people in the same way that AI boards aren't helpful. Like a computer can just fart out some geography.

44:22

Yeah, yeah.

45:01

That doesn't make any sense and doesn't have any, you know, correlation to what we're actually. What actual resources we have and actors we have and all that stuff. And so, like, the real real is when you're on set and you have a couple bodies and can do like a crap o matic, like, that's. That's where the rubber hits the road. In which case then it's really helpful for them to note things. And oftentimes people never note a crapped up crapomatic or never really give that any credence when that's the thing that's the closest.

45:01

But to me, I take that the crap o matic, which is like when you shoot the whole commercial on your phone at a location, even if you're just scouting four locations.

45:28

Someone called it a crapo to me the other day and I was like, do you mean a. A crapmatic? Because I kind of thought that crap o matic was sort of like. Like a, you know, street people. Yeah, real. Yeah, exactly.

45:36

Well, I put crap o matic in my treatment the other day, and my ep Logan was like, can you not write crap in there? It makes it sound bad. It's like, can you just call it like a phone O matic or something?

45:47

Or. Yeah, rough O matic or something. Yeah.

45:57

And then of course, when I pitched it back to them, I was like. And this is where I talk about my. What I call like a crap o matic. I didn't put in my treatment because Logan here told me not to put in. But really we call them that because we don't want you to think they're good too much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyhow Sorry. My point is. And to your. Is that I think the longer I work, the more I tell people what I like and what I don't like. And I guess maybe that is part of, like, who you are as a director, too. And I think it's. I think that's helpful. I think you're literally. Your main job is to have an opinion. And, like, I think for me, personally, I think I become a better director as I share my opinion, listen to other people's opinion, and very happily change my opinion. You know, it's not. The stuff I say isn't gospel. It's just like, this is how I feel today in my experience.

45:59

This is how this is what has worked.

46:49

And. And I challenge people all the time, like, hey, tell me if you have a better shot for this, if you have a better way to cover the scene. If we have a better way like this, like, I'm all ears, you know, And I actually do kind of wish I. That my crew pushed back on me a little bit more, you know, And I told you today, an example of the DP I'm working with right now, Damien. I told him, it'll go from this shot to this shot. And he was like, those shots are really similar. I don't think they're gonna look good in the edit. And I was like, thank you so much for saying that. Like, I love it when someone is actually thinking about the edit other than me, you know, anyhow, so I don't know. I think all that is interesting, but. But, like, to rewind to the topic of this. This thing, which is like, where figuring out where you fit in, I love getting that feedback. And I. If you're a DP that's listening to this and I put you on hold before, and then I ended up not using you or using you. And you want to know why? Like, ask me. I. I will be more than happy to tell you. And I have so many DPS that reach out to me on Instagram, and they're like, hey, it would be great if you hired me. I'm available. And I know that they're good dps, but I'll be like, hey, I would love to hire you, but like you said, your website sucks. I can't sell you to anyone, you know, And. And to answer your question about whether I've ever gotten concrete, you know, answers, I asked today. I was at a client dinner before we were recording this podcast, and I said, hey, why'd you guys end up

46:50

going a drink and a half? And it's like, so why do you guys like me? Right.

48:06

Yeah. Well, so what? The answer I get almost every time, you would think it's the real, but it's. It's almost never been the real.

48:10

It's a yes.

48:18

It's usually some combination of how passionate you are about the job, how collaborative you are, which basically just means you listened and you reacted to the things they said and incorporated them into your pitch back and. Yeah. The treatment, you know, and so.

48:19

And I think that's because a great reel is table stakes. Like, that's what got you there.

48:35

Right?

48:41

A hundred people submitted reels. They picked three great reels. They're so good that it's kind of hard to pick. And every once in a while it's like, okay, well, there's really one obvious winner and then two backup choices, but I think you can still beat that other person out if the pitch is great, you know, and that's. That's the whole game, basically.

48:42

Yeah.

49:03

Yeah.

49:03

But I think, like, you'd be surprised how many directors are not good listeners too. Like, I've gotten that note multiple times where it's like, you actually, like, listened and didn't fight with us.

49:04

Yeah, I think there's that, and I think there's also, like, lots of them that just haven't. Haven't honed the ability to pitch, you know, and that's not to. Pitching isn't just. It's exactly what you said. It's showing your passion, listening, showing up prepared. And oftentimes there's kind of like a little bit of a mixture of things that people are missing. Maybe they're not a people person, which is totally fair. Maybe they're not presentational. Maybe they're bad at showing their passion. You know, like, people become filmmakers for all sorts of reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the skills one needs to. To win a room over, you know? And, yeah, I think that the game is being clear and analytical about how you get better each time. Do you know what I mean? And so that's another part of how what your voice is, is like, okay, like, I won this job, it's because I was really passionate. You've been on this passion kick for a long time. I don't think that passion always wins the job, but it wins all of your jobs. Right. Which is what I'm getting at. But, like, you've leaned into passion. And so of course, the feedback that you're getting is, Oren was really passionate because you're only. You're asking the people who liked you and liked your passion.

49:16

No.

50:32

What did you like about me?

50:32

I've gotten that feedback on lost like jobs that I lost as well.

50:33

But passionate. But his attitude is bad. He's just a bad person.

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52:00

No, I mean usually when I lose, it's like I, I, I know you're joking but like I do often get like we loved his passion, we loved his excitement. We, he worked at every single detail. But this other director who was also passionate and worked out every single detail had one thing like one idea that we really liked. You know, which is funny because it's Jordan Brady used to always say, like, yep, it's just all about the idea. And I kind of always push back on him and I'm like, yeah, right. It's like when you know Jake Zamanski with this incredible reel, like it's because it's real. I mean it's, his body of work is so good.

52:10

Sure, sure.

52:44

But the more I'm kind of pitching with these really great directors, the more I am seeing, like you said, like the great reel is like step one and step two is giving a Shit. And step three is bringing something new that excites people.

52:45

Yeah, yeah. The giving it, giving a shit thing is interesting because especially as you level up, you know, or you're like pitching against celebrities, oftentimes they don't give a shit. Do you know what I mean? Because it's like, oh, well, this is the thing I'm doing in between the two movies that I'm really excited about and have exerted all of my, you know, creative value. But if you get like, you know,

53:00

a Taika YTT or something, you know that he, he can make good work even if I know nothing about working with him. So I'm just like being hypothetical here. But even if he didn't give a, he probably would make pretty good work because every DP in the world would love to work with him. Every actor in the world would love to impress him. He, because of his reputation as a filmmaker, he probably can easily surround himself with just the best craftspeople. I can probably have a punch up writer just be like, oh taika, I'd love to come just write like pitch jokes with you, you know, like in a way that we have to like really work hard to make sure we're surrounded with the best of the best. So I do think there's, there's some people that still make good stuff without giving a. Because they gave a. On other things.

53:20

Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, perhaps.

54:10

Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on where they fit in. If this is helpful at all, if this was eye opening at all. Like my, my main takeaway that I was hoping people would take is that wherever you like to fit in is like where you fit in, you know, and yeah, the more you, the more you do it and the more reps you get and the more feedback you get, the, the more you'll fit into this industry, you know?

54:12

Yeah, yeah. It makes me think of some advice from Tina Fey and Bossypants. Something to the effect of like just like keep your head down and do the work and. Which is, you know, an easy thing to say if you're Tina Fey and things all worked out.

54:39

Yeah, if you're bossy.

54:55

But I think there is some truth to it. Like if you're overthinking things or sweating it too hard, then you're sweating the wrong thing.

54:56

Right.

55:05

And maybe your, your ship comes in. Maybe not. Like that's a lot of that is luck. But like if you are doing the work and the work, the work will speak for itself. And then when that lucky opportunity shows up, those first few gigs, you're prepared. Right. But, like, thinking about, like, what's my voice? Which is a thing that I have had a thought about, especially as a young filmmaker. It's not something you can really plan for anyway. Just lean into the things that feel good, keep doing the work and you'll get there.

55:05

Yeah, yeah. And feel free to push into things that you like, even if you're not getting the work.

55:37

Sure.

55:42

To do that.

55:42

Absolutely. Absolutely.

55:42

Awesome.

55:44

Awesome.

55:45

Well, do you have a minute to endorse something with me?

55:45

I do indeed. Unpaid endorsements. I've got two endorsements coming at you. Nice and hot. My first is are you a John Wilson fan or as in how to with John Wilson?

55:48

I don't think so.

56:00

He had an HBO show. I'm surprised. Actually, he had an HBO show first. He had like a Vimeo series where he was, you know.

56:01

Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry. Yes. No, no, we.

56:07

Yeah, we have.

56:11

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

56:11

So John Wilson, you know, that's a generic name that.

56:12

I forgot who he is.

56:15

Sure, sure. And he's kind of doing a little bit of a character. He's not as awkward in real life. He's not as stilted and not as kind of like, caught off guard. He did an interview at the Whitney Museum that. I'll have to. Hold on. Give me two seconds. Let me find the actual title. Yeah.

56:16

Okay.

56:35

So he did a talk back at the Whitney Museum called John how to Make a Podcast Doomscroll. And I believe Doom scroll is kind of like their big sort of interview lecture series, basically, at the Whitney. It's from April 8, 2026, so relatively recently. And it's a great conversation about his process and how he makes things, but kind of more big picture, just like the work that he's been doing and what it means to him. But. But through the course of the conversation, you learn a couple things that since. Since that series. And he's got a new movie that's coming out called the History of Concrete and is. It's like they talk about how it's really the worst title for the most boring sounding movie ever, which is his thing. But like, he. Not to spoil an anecdote, but like, he, like when he's first, like, starting to decide to pitch this movie, he. He looks to see if, like, anyone's written a book with that title or anything, and he finds one on. On Amazon and realizes that it's not actually literally a book. It's one of those fake safes. You know, it's like a hollow book. Yeah, because the title is so boring that a thief would just overlook it. There's no possibility that anyone would ever actually Bentley, decide to read this book, the History of Concrete. So it's good for keeping your keepsakes. Anyway, it's really funny, but you learn that he did actually buy his apartment building, which is kind of a runner in the episodes of the show, but is basically providing affordable housing to New York artists, many of whom are the people shooting who are on the camera crew of the Whitney Museum. And that also with another person who's a camera operator at the Whitney Bottom Movie theater and has been screening movies there, you know, regularly. And it was just like this kind of, like, bland, pasty white dude is, like, putting his money where his mouth is, like, in a really radical way. Like, literally, like, providing like, affordable housing to artists building, you know, artisanal, like, movie theaters to like, make it work in, like, a pretty radical way. Like, I know, like, on its face value, that can sound like kind of like a pretty big, like, rich guy move, but it's like very like, DIY punk rock, like, lefty move that made me just hold him in an even higher esteem. He's just putting his money where his mouth is. And he's not, like, a mouthy guy. Do you know what I mean? For, like, all these celebrities are like, I have to save cinema. I'm gonna buy a movie theater. And it's like, yeah, we get it. Yeah, we get a Tarantino or Kristen Stewart. Like, no disrespect. I. I want to rescind that joke. Like, utmost respect, save cinema, please. I think that, like, what's happening with what happened with bookstores, where, like, indie bookstores actually became third spaces and cultural epicenters and, like, are thriving because Amazon is so bad. I think that's what's going to happen with movie theaters. And so, you know, your vidiots of the world, I think, are going to pop up all over the place, especially now that Alamo Drafthouse is crumbling before our very eyes. I think that is the future of cinema, mark my words. But it's rad that he's doing it anyway. So Doom scroll, the John Wilson episode was really rad. And then Oren, are you familiar with the TikTok and probably Instagram, though. I'm not sure. User HUSK H U S K I don't think so. He had a clip go viral that you might have seen where he's like, he's got his phone up and it's got chatgpt on it. And he goes, okay, chatgpt, I'm gonna go run a mile. Can you time me? And then ChatGPT goes, Yep, I've got you. And then he's like, okay, here I go, okay, I'm back without cutting. And he says, how long did that take me? And then has an argument with Chatgpt about how Chatgpt insists that absolutely he ran, he ran a 10 minute mile even though he very clearly was only been gone for a matter of seconds. And it triple quadruple downs. It is like adamant, like, Nope, you ran 10 minutes and 22 seconds or whatever it is. And has that one went viral? And Sam Altman was like, yeah, Chat TV doesn't have a timer. Like came to his attention. He addresses it overtly and then in a follow up one, not to spoil it, but he's like, hey, do you have a timer to ChatGPT? And they. ChatGPT is like, yep, I absolutely do. And you're. He's like, you're sure? And this is. Yes. Okay, hold on, I'm going to show you. This is Sam Altman. Do you know who that is? And it'll be like, yeah, that looks like Sam Altman. He's like, okay, I'm going to play you the video where Sam Altman says, chatgpt, you do not have a timer. And ChatGPT is like, I don't know what you're talking about. I do have a timer. And it's just, it's just basically him exploiting ChatGPT and into like overt and explicit lies over and over again. And he's found all these different sort of versions where ChatGPT will explicitly be like wrong in ways that he proves outright. It's pretty fun.

56:35

Interesting. I'll take him out or I'll check him out. Husk is taken.

1:01:41

Yeah, there you go. Thank you.

1:01:45

Cool. Kaplan, do you know what vehicle motion cues are?

1:01:46

Not a clue. No.

1:01:51

It's an iPhone feature. Oh, I do.

1:01:52

I take it back. I do, yeah.

1:01:54

Have you tried them? Yeah.

1:01:56

So I get. Explain what it is.

1:01:58

So it's something you can add to your phone if you're on the YouTube channel. You can see it right now in my phone. It's like from Apple. It's like I just have it in my like quick access screen or whatever you call that screen that you get when you pull down from the bottom right corner and it adds dots onto the screen of your phone that are animated by the like gyroscope accelerometer. In your phone and some magic way, I don't know exactly how it knows when you are in a car and when the car starts moving, the dots on the screen will move, like in a harmonious motion to the car, which isn't. I don't quite understand how it works exactly because they don't seem to be moving at the same speed as of the car or anything or like the same acceleration on the car.

1:02:00

But it's sort of like a perceived motion.

1:02:44

I think there is almost like a wave. Like if you had a cup of water in the car and the. The car accelerated and decelerated, the way that water would move is how these dots move on your phone screen. They're kind of around the edges and they are supposed to make it so that you get less car sick, less motion sickness when you're using your phone in the car. And I. I've been kind of messing around with it and it's. It's interesting. Have you used it?

1:02:46

Yes. Do you get motion sickness or.

1:03:14

I do get motion sick, but I'm like, I really like driving, so nine times out of ten I'm driving. But if I'm like, read. I couldn't. I can't like, read a book in a car. I mean, I have definitely gotten queasy from like, looking at my phone or pictures or trying to edit or use my laptop in the car for too long.

1:03:16

I will turn it back on. I get motion sick and also, like driving fine. I think my wife and I are probably like a coin toss. She might drive a little bit more than me because we prefer her car to my car. And so she kind of like, you know, all stibs. Like, it's. But like. And I, I think that the motion sensor, like that mode, it's. It's not a magic trick, I guess, is what I'm saying. Like, if you. I. I would still get motion sick while using it.

1:03:34

Even when you had it on?

1:04:05

Yeah, but. But probably it probably does help. But, like, because I've got it on, I'm like, well, now I'm on my phone the whole time and I'm still motion sick. What gives? And it's like, well, you're still on your phone, dude.

1:04:06

Right. Well, the thing is, when you get motion sick or what, I think a lot of people do. What you would tell a kid that's like feeling queasy is like, look out the window, right? Like, look at the things that are moving past you. And like, the motion sickness comes from, like, your lack of visual Inputs.

1:04:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:04:33

Of the motion. But your body, your inner ear is like feeling all this motion but your eyes aren't. And so it's supposed to kind of add that in. So yeah, I think, I think it's interesting. I'm curious what other people think about it, but yeah, it's a cool feature.

1:04:34

I think I'm an outlier in terms of like, what? I'm pretty susceptible to motion sickness for sure.

1:04:47

Yeah. So seems like something that would be on your resume.

1:04:53

Yeah, yeah.

1:04:55

Like inner ear challenges, self proclaimed introvert.

1:04:56

Mm. Introvert, extrovert. Oren. Get it right, get it right.

1:05:01

Introvert, extrovert, susceptible to motion sickness and sleepy head. What else? Yeah, Incredibly annoyed by people laughing in movies.

1:05:04

No, I like laughing in movies. I like laughing in movies.

1:05:13

You can tune into a previous episode to understand what I'm Awesome. Well, thanks for listening. Please, if you want to email us, you can email us at just3topotgmail.com. You can find us across all social mediastudepod or me on Instagram. I'm O Kaplan.

1:05:17

And I'm Rmat Enlo. This episode was edited by Kevin Oyang. Kevin Our social media was done by Lily Boubier. Thanks, Lily. And produced by Tyler Small. Thanks, Tyler. And you're listening to music provided by the Free Music Archive and the artist Jazzar. Thanks, everyone. Goodbye.

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