‘A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms’ Episode 6 Deep Dive

Greetings, and welcome to House of R in our beautiful, stonin' new studio. It hasn't always looked like this. It has not always looked like this. We're House of R. We're a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. Mm-hmm. Joining me today, my poor, sweet warrior, all that potting center brain to applesauce. It's Joanna Robinson. It had to be a Fossilay reference for you. Of course. Thank you so much. Not a B's, you know, rest in B's for me. Plenty of B's for your reference is coming today. We have a lot of coffin design discourse awaiting us. We are here, in case you can't tell, to discuss The Morrow, which is the season one finale of A Night of the Seven Kingdoms, episode six. Can I say really quickly? Yeah. You are allowed to consume this podcast any way you want. but I would really recommend that you at least check out the video for a bit of this podcast if not the entirety because the new studio is wild and exciting. The Ringer squad, the Spotify squad. Our cloaks are here. We have cloaks. I mean, Preston has here. It's great. You will get to see all of the little nooks and crannies of our beautiful new space. You will get to hear us talk about the Night of the Seven Kingdom season one finale. Correct? Right after this. Okay, we're back. Programming reminders. You will all see it in your feeds and hear it in your feeds tomorrow. We're recording it later today. House of the Dragon, season three teaser trailer. I was like, should we bring outfit changes? If we're wearing the same clothes, don't worry about it. If we look beleaguered, don't worry about it. It will just be our fifth hour of podcasting. It's fine. I can't wait. We're going to do that because there's a trailer. That television show is coming this summer, June. So we already have our first little glimpse, a minute and a half-ish, a minute-ish of footage. We're going to dive into that. And then next week, we will be back. We're doing a mailbag. Mailbag. No Sunday. We're not with you on Sunday. No more Talk of Thrones. I mean, we'll be back for Talk of Thrones this summer. But we're going to have a seasonal mailbag coming at the top of next week. So send your questions to Ryan and Warshare. Everybody send their questions. So glad you asked. Hobbitsanddragons.gmail.com is the place you want to send them. We've already started. We got a few already just because I think we mentioned we might do this. But if you have specific, if there's anything that in the next nine hours of us podcasting we do not cover about Night of the Seven Kingdoms or House of the Dragon, you have questions about hobbitsanddragons.gmail.com, we're happy to answer them for you. Fantastic. Great. How about the spoiler warning for today's Night of the Seven Kingdoms Season 1 finale deep dive? How do we handle things? So I would say everything up through the end of Hedge Knight is on the table. That's right. anything in A Song of Ice and Fire is on the table. Always. Game of Thrones spoilers go. But future novellas Dunkin' Ake novellas we've got a spoiler section for that. We sure do. So we'll keep that there. You know? I wonder will we be able in our fancy new space to hear the alarming sirens that terrify the masses and the heart stopping and then running for cover like a dragon shriek from above. I don't know. You'll hear it at home even if we don't hear it here. We need to find out. How can everyone follow along? So glad you asked. Okay, listen. Why don't you subscribe to the podcast, wherever you get podcasts? Great idea. But really, you should be watching it today and every day because the set is amazing. It's so incredible. I'm so grateful to be here. And then follow us on social. That's right. Gosh. Yeah. TikTok, Instagram, Twitter. Sure. All the places. Why not? And then, of course, HobbitsandDarkets.com, which I already mentioned. Keep the emails coming. Keep them coming. We got a lot of great emails today. Inbox is always open. Yeah. We got a lot, and it's not even, like, the tip of the email berg that we got based on this finale. People had a lot of thoughts and feelings about it. A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms has done exactly what we wanted, which was animate the masses. It was like, yeah. More of the animating show. Delightful stuff. Okay. We've got a lot to cover today. Flourish, like a post-turny Raymond Fossilway. Yes. He's doing great. He's very rapidly moved into the next phase of his life, and I have, I would say, some notes for him, words of caution, but mostly just joy in my heart. I actually have no notes for him. Mostly just joy in my heart. Did you see the tweet about how, like, Florida coded he is? Oh! Interesting. Huh. They were like, it was like, Raymond falls away, um, gets in a fight in a parking lot, uh, throws in with a guy that he just met, um, you know, fights his own cousin, uh, gets- Brags about breaking a rib. Gets shotgun married. to, you know, a stripper who is locked up with someone else's baby. Super well. Yeah. I, for one... I say I have love and respect all of Florida. I didn't write the tweet. I just poorly communicated. You just consumed it. Well, we will shortly talk about some more social media gems. Did you see Dexter's Instagram reel wig watch corner? He put on a wig and he went and pretended that he was a makeup artist. This is great stuff. A little mustache. Absolutely wonderful. It was so charming. So much to get to. We're not here just to talk about social media, but it might come up again today. It just might. It might. Let's get to the opening snapshot. Let's do it. Joanna, if anybody did not watch Talk to Thrones, first of all, do that. You had a blast. CR, I miss them already. I know, Chris. Sheesh. We're back in June. For his single favorite thing in the world. Chris and Chris. Yeah, genuinely. Chris be cold. what did you think of episode six tomorrow give us your table setting taste before we dive into the entire episode I loved it yeah it was great I thought it was fantastic I have like a couple adaptation questions that we'll get to but overall I'm just so pleased with the season and so even the things that I have questions about I'm willing to sort of write it out and see what they have in mind for them as it ripples forward so it's not oh, this is for the book and I'm upset or nervous about it. It's just sort of like, huh, interesting. Yeah, I'm just so glad that so many people have fallen in love with the show, have fallen in love with these characters, and it just feels like Thrones is, like, extremely fun again, which it's been a minute, so, yeah. Really agree. It's been such a joy not only to watch a truly, truly great adaptation and a truly great story and a truly great season of TV. To be able to share it together and feel that spark of excitement to be back in Westeros, I really miss that. That's just, like, kind of my favorite thing. There's nothing better. Yeah. So that's been awesome, and I'm, like, really grateful to this show for reigniting that shared experience. And I'm excited to talk about the finale. I am overjoyed beyond description that we get to be back with Dunkin' Egg next year. Like, the fact that they're making this show every year, at least for now, a little while. While they've got a couple things. Did you do the four hours? Like, even if it takes us two years, we're not ending on a cliffhanger. So, you know, we will have, like, each story is meant to feel like it is wrapped up. Right. So you're not, you know, left. You're not hot-deeing it. That's what I didn't want to say. Tune in for a trailer breakdown. You're not left with a bunch of armies marching towards nothing. So, yeah, you know, great stuff. Mailbag. Opening snapshot mailbag before we get into the deep jacks. What do you got? Here's the most important thing. Okay. Sometimes I'm quite confidently wrong about things. And so last week when I said the King's Road was the Giant's Causeway in Ireland, that's a different beautiful location. This location is called the Dark Hedges, and here's the most important thing. Ireland your naming is amazing Dark Hedges and the Giant's Causeway anyway I apologize all of Ireland what this means is I need to go to Ireland I think maybe Spotify needs to send me for my own education have you ever been I've never been it's my people Ireland are my people and I've never been have you been to Wales also your people also my people no your middle name is Wales I've been to Scotland something I learned about you I've been to Scotland probably there Edinburgh anyway and we're going to go to Stratford this summer for the Mad King play right I'm just putting that energy out in the universe that that's something we're going to do it's been three and a half weeks since we just sat on a podcast that we were going to England. Just we're manifesting, you know? I think we could do Oxford and Stratford in the same... I really agree. And Oxnard, if we really play our cards right. Also, our listener Mackenzie sent in this really... Mackenzie, who has a academic background in linguistics, sent in a really interesting email about she's like, one thing I find interesting in the United Seven Kingdoms, particularly when you're thinking about Targaryens and their flop era TM, That TM goes to one of our listeners, by the way, is the lack of the use of Valyrian language. And I thought this was a really interesting email. I was wondering if you had any thoughts about this. She was pointing out that sort of in the history of cultures that have conquered other cultures, you often have these sort of transition periods into the local language, talking about, like, French into English after the Norman Conquest and all this sort of stuff like that. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts about, like, yes, this is from Dunk's POV, but occasionally we see Dunk sort of, like, eavesdropping on a couple Targ brothers talking, something like that. So what do you make of there being no High Valerian in this season? Um, I certainly think that these Targs speak High Valerian, and maybe it's more of an adaptive choice from Ayr on the team that it didn't feel like quite the vibe given the really active decision, you know, connected to the source material to root this in the, like, small folk energy. I think Arian? For sure. Fluent. No question. Arian? Well. I'm not sure. He's got a line or two at least that he tosses out at a brothel. Yeah. For sure. For sure. Arian, no question. I, you know, the fact that obviously, like, when we get to Thrones proper, building toward a great moment, like, Dany's saying, Valerian is my mother tongue. Like, I think we should assume that all of the Tard Royals have this in their bag, and it's just not necessarily been on display in this show. will we be treated in a future season to egg teaching Dunk, moving on from his geography lessons to teaching Dunk some high Valerian? What do you think? No. You think Dunk will pick it up quickly? He loves Duolingo, so I think he's going to have a great time with it. I do think it's interesting, like, as we're talking about, like, what makes a knight a knight, the question, and then what makes a Targaryen a Targaryen? We got another great email about that, which we can read a little bit later on, but, like, I think thinking about these Targs, could it be a political choice not to speak a lot of Valyrian if they're trying to... Out of a place like Ashford, at least. You know, if they're like, you know, there are Fossilies running around calling us incestuous aliens, should we not speak our alien language, you know? Yeah, and at a moment where they're temporarily kind of putting the incestuous marriage thing on hold, working to shore up the political alliances, marriages to families in Dorne, in the Stormlands, in the Dornish Marches, Tairashi, like, in this episode. Yeah, that's right. Maybe not a moment necessarily to, like, I like that to flaunt something that is really, like, whereas in other stories, Hot D, we talked about this a lot, the forging of that bubble, like, this is a thing that we share and nobody around us, Damon, Rhaenyra, et cetera, can access it. Wouldn't be the vibe out at Ashford Meadow? Are they speaking it in private? Possibly. But I think also, like, we talked about this a lot in terms of, like, their shorter haircuts, you know? Yeah. Like, styles will come and go in Westeros, or they should probably a bit more than they have done on these shows. But I like this idea of, like, we don't have the long, elaborately braided, platinum Valyrian hair. We have no dragons with whom to communicate in High Valyrian. No dragons to listen to our commands. Very sad. Wouldn't it be funny if Valyrian just, like, shouted Drakkar as, you know. At the puppet. At the puppet. At the people who wanted to burn the puppet. At the back of his horn. Oh, it comes back to puppets. Yeah. I'm thinking about them always. Anyway, that's all I have to say about that. And then last but not least, I do want to say, this is not an email, but I want to say, do you remember when we were talking about we hadn't seen the behind the scenes? They did, like, four, five, and six behind the scenes together. So you can watch Night in the Making, four, five, and six on YouTube or wherever you consume that content. And I told you my fondest wish was to see a helm, like, perched on a camera so we could see that helm PMV. and I got it and it was just like me at my computer doing the Leo pointing me and I was just like extremely thrilled. So if you want to see a little helmet on a camera and how they got their like dunk helm POV shot that exists for you. As a bit of a helmet enthusiast myself you know a lot of mini football helmets a couple full-size football helmets a lot of Lego helmets a lot of Star Wars the a lot of Star Wars Lego helmets from Marvel Lego helmets maybe it's something I'll try at home. Should I start making films? Yeah. Specifically through the slit in a Lego helmet or a mini football helmet? What do you think? It's the Legos or nothing. I think what you should do, and then we can talk about this episode of television, but I think what you should do is you should build, you should do like influencer Lego building videos through the eye slit of a Lego helmet. This is the year that I... It's like Lego-ception. I love that. I'm going to build It feels right because it's a big Lord of the Rings anniversary. Rivendell? Not sure if we've mentioned that before. I think it's time for me to finally build my Rivendell set. Yeah. Because I have it. I've had it. Let me know if I can come over and help. That would be wonderful. Is that something you would enjoy or you're like, this is a me project? Well, here's if I'm. So, here's what I'll say. I'm inclined to say, sounds great. You've got my husband's number. Text him and get his opinion on this because he's had some feedback for me before when we have tried to do like this together. What if we did some parallel, like, I got my own ribbon belt set. And we built our own sets near each other. That was my suggestion to him at the time was build your own fucking Lego. Yep. That's how you said it. I believe that. We've got all of these. Just pick your own and build it. We can do it next to each other. So, yeah, it seems like we got there a little faster. Yeah, let's just preserve this friendship. Should we dive deep? Let's do it. Should we go scene by scene through this delightful finale of the morrow? I'd love to. Okay, everyone in the control room, we're going to need you guys to switch the cameras to a low vantage point and pump in some comedy jazz because we're opening with... The last one you sent... I, from reserves, you sent an instructional video to the set that there should be no low camera angles. That's true. That was an actual request. be consistent in your messaging but in this particular case it really really would have paid off you know really would have paid off i don't know that i um uh really can match frankly any of the energy that lionel's bringing certainly not the eyeliner or the earrings but you can you can but i can do the barathean masonry but you could be lionel works for me i believe it um because the jazz scoring and the musical accompaniment overall all helps to contribute to the real tonal shift. You know, we've come out of the horror of the end of episode five, and then boom, there's a different energy right away. We're resetting, we're recalibrating, very true to the spirit of the show, where we have kind of maintained a consistent sensibility, but moved in and out of tones inside of that. The music was a big part of that here. Anything broadly on the scoring or the musical accompaniments, you mentioned the needle drop that accompanied the end credits, anything on the music front that, since we're talking about music, you want to hit here before we get to the substance of the scene? I should say our mutual friend Kim Renfro, who does Cassa King's podcast. You know, Kim, when she worked at Insider, used to do incredible interviews with composers that I was always really jealous of because she can, like, really pick out themes. So she's just been sending me these, like, elaborate texts about, like, especially the score that played during Baylor's entrance when the Game of Thrones theme went into Dan Romer's sort of a Night of the Seven Kingdom theme. and she had, like, all of these incredible piercing thoughts about that. I do not have that vocabulary at the ready. I just think the music in this season was incredible. I have some questions about 16 Tons, which closed out this episode. We got a lot of emails in defense of it. That's fine. Like, it didn't bother me. I still don't know that I fully am convinced that thematically it made perfect sense to me. But I loved the opening music of this episode, And I think I dropped the BBC show. I think it was BBC, maybe ITV or maybe Channel 4 show, The Detecturists. You can find out when we're in England this summer. Sounds good. No way to check until we're there. Which features a great intro song by Johnny Flynn. Sure. Jerome Flynn, of course, brought himself. but that sort of that up angle that comedy up angle that silent comedy of just sort of like regarding Dunk and Dunk just battered and bruised in the Sir Arlen dying pose against the tree looking up at them like that silent exchange with the it's everyone's calling it jazz it did not like register as jazz but sure the jazz that plays over the beginning of the episode I just thought it was so funny it was great and just like a great use of like visual silent comedy score all together. Just put me in a real, like, I'm watching a, you know, a fun little, like, British show that I love, is what it felt like to me. We did get an email about Dan Romer's work in general, but is there... Is there anything you wanted to share? The music's great. Okay. I love it. We got a little from Chris, who, like, in addressing Duncan Egg, called them my tall knight and fellow bald king, so I thought that was really sweet. It will always feel special to have something back in your life you thought you may have lost for good. This can be said both for Dunk's character, who lost one family but gained another, or for the Westeros world itself, which was clearly struggling after the Thrones collapse, to have a show without major skepticism and critical angst. I was overcome with this feeling as, quote, I suppose we could go anywhere, one of the tracks from this season, which the track that closes out which truly feels like a sister song to go find out for me which is dan romer wrote for luca and chris wrote earlier in this um i know early in the email about how much he loved the music from luca from station 11 like all of dan romer's work right um so chris describes blared those trembling strings as dunks traveled to a wide open road with his new family I sent this email to reflect on just how much Romer's scores have meant to me. Go to a park with someone you love and listen to his music. His songs make the world feel so open with endless possibilities on the horizon. And I think that is exactly what the Game of Thrones world needed. Maybe Romer was the real prince who was promised. Oh, my God. What a lovely email. I know. Go to a park and listen to Dan Romer's music. Listen to the Luca score. Listen to the Station Eleven score. Listen to the Night of the Seven Kings. And I think they just dropped it out this week, the official score, so you can fire it up anytime you want. I just might. You should. You know, I love nature. You do. I do. I love the idea of nature. This is the year that I start actively communing with it. Okay. You want to go on some hikes? Do I want to go on some hikes? No. But do I think I'm at the point in my life where I should start going on some hikes? Let's go on some hikes. I've been getting served a lot of Instagram reels about the dangers of being sedentary. Hobbitsanddragonsatdm.com. As I'm moving to L.A. from Northern California where I know all the hikes, but I don't know the hikes in L.A., send me your hiking recommendations, Hobbits and Dragons. I love a forested hike. Forests are harder to find in L.A., but they do good. So, you know. Yeah. You could send me a desert hike all around you up north. It's true. A desert hike is tough. A desert hike I'm not ready for. Right, but there's trees here. There are water features. Unless we get the holy water umbrella hat that we came up with and trademarked on the Buffy pod, so they could just be like a little mister to keep me cool. It's something to think about. I wonder what the Baratheon Mester would recommend for a walk. Do you think a mister hat would have helped Balor's head stay intact? Probably. Couldn't have hurt. Probably. Unfortunately, his brain fell to the floor. I still miss him. And because of that, he was not able to follow through on his pledge to send his maester to assist Dunk. The good news is, Lionel's maester is also here at Ashford Meadow. The bad news is this guy is, Dunk had some bandages on, so I think... He had, like, a piece of cloth. I think the Targaryen, I think it's possible that the royal maester was there. You think someone went to get him and is like, Like, Baylor dropped dead, but let's follow through on the pledge that after he finished with Maker. I guess my bigger question is... Maybe it was Sealy Payne. Maybe he's like, I heard not to do oil to do wine. Who dragged him to that tree and then just left him there alone? That's my question. I really love... You mentioned the Arlen imagery parallel. I loved the detail of Dunk sitting there in the bloody shirt still, both because it is such a, like... It is a great visual shorthand to just remind us of the horror that he just went through and how little time has passed. but also it's like Egg's not letting me doesn't have a squire to like help clean him up his horses aren't even around you know I mean Raymond had Red to help him out of that armor but don't you think Steeler Pate dragged him there just left him there and was like it's best I be elsewhere given how close I was you know I'm going to follow Tenzel off the door best I not be like I was interested in that don't use oil update I'm going to I'm going to hit the books they're available until May Cargo to sit at the desk I'm going to see I just have a lot of questions about how Doug got there and who left him there. These are great questions. But Lionel showed up. He did. And Lionel, a capricious fellow, not someone to rely upon, but who showed up for Dunk at the Tree? He's here for Dunk, and he's here with an offer. He's also got some choice language for his maester. Be gone, witch. Will this be incorporated immediately into your everyday? No. Vocabulary moving forward. Be day, witch. Be here, witch. Yeah. Never be gone, witch. I love this about you. Witch stuff go always. Lionel, he, there's a lot that he says that we need to parse. I do just feel compelled to note that he managed to get a few additional cunts in before the season ended. And I respect that. I also respect the Maester just sort of sage smudging. That's some very Northern California hippie stuff. Some sage, maybe some Palo Santo. I don't know what he was smudging, but it was. Unfortunately, no Dr. Robbie-esque Purell on the hands before prodding and sniffing the wound. So that's worrying. Snapped onto her wrist. I like the lampshading. You know, we had some fun talking about the sheer toll of the injuries that Dunk incurred last week. Yeah. And everybody on the internet really, really loved that. Really agreed with us. The lampshading of the... But did you see the person who complimented our skincare routine? No. I didn't. On YouTube, I got a comment that was like, as if I'm going to let two chicks... Yes, our. You. Glowing like an angel. As if I'm going to let two chicks... I'm badly paraphrasing. Is this if I'm going to let two chicks with a skin care routine tell me about medieval combat? And I was like, oh, you think we look nice. There you go. There you go. Would you let this Baratheon maester tend to your wounds if you were at Ashford or really just anywhere? It's certainly a no for the grubby fingers in the wound and then the smelling and the recoiling. The smelling is really gross. It's really tough. I do like that we got from him the acknowledgement that Dunk was on Death's Door. You know, he's like, these are, the flesh is mortifying, these wounds are festering, this guy's going to die. Thought that was great. But he's wrong. He's wrong, but it was great to acknowledge. It was great that someone inside of this show acknowledged that Dunk should not be alive, but he is, and we're thrilled. Good for him. Good for him. Are you going to respond to every single one of the comments that ridiculed us by saying, told you? No? Won't be responding to a single comment. No. Now or ever. Lionel, I got to say, he showed up, as you noted. I wouldn't say that he brought the most robust display of emotional intelligence that I've ever witnessed. Was it placing his hand on the wounded side or to stand up that really did it for you? That was like number 17 on the power rankings of I've got some notes for Lionel here. I think just in general, the level of obliviousness to Dunk's physical state, but more importantly, his emotional state as Lionel sits next to him or his lines and says, man, I'm really wistful for that journey. It was fucking great, and I loved it. That was really, I mean, yes. Wild! Duncan barely cogent. He's shattered. Not his most emotionally intelligent moment. I do think, though, I thought it was so interesting to hear him talk about how boring he finds Storm's head. Yeah. He's like, I don't want to go back home. Yeah. And certainly this wasn't keeping with the way that he has spoken all season long about, you know, the longing for a foothold, a toehold in history, right? the way that he's talked about glory hasn't been a trial of seven for a hundred years or first ever jowth ah men could not have devised such a joy like it makes sense that this is the state that he's in after not only participating in this but surviving it on the winning side which validates that like if they could do it like i could do it way that he talked about the stormlanders and the salt in the air like this tracks for me completely as the perfect place to find lionel in terms of his just kind of like lust and longing for something that will become a part of songs. And I also think it's like, it felt to me, we're going to get to what he says about Baylor here when he makes his offer to dunk and Baylor comes up. It felt to me like there's definitely a note of jealousy from Lionel here too, because he's kind of like, I did this thing and I survived. Why aren't you talking about me? Baylor, Baylor, Baylor, Baylor. Marsha, Marsha, Marsha, Marsha but also like Dunk is getting, you know, the most famous person to come out of this tourney is Duncan the Tall, you know and I mean, Raymond's going to get to raise Sir Manfred's bastard child, you know without being any the wiser, honestly, if she's even pregnant at all, she might not even be pregnant it's entirely possible so you mentioned the home is dull come to Storm's End, this offer, hunt hawk, sail, we'll be merry I'm going to sharpen your iron, I bet. I'm going to sharpen your iron. It's overtly stated, you know, we'll have fun, we'll train, right? The offers, Dunk receives and rejects multiple offers that would have been the dream, like the pinnacle heading into the events of Ashford, the final offer and then later the Makar offer. Both of them in some capacity say that they'll finish Dunk's training. I'm like genuinely obsessed with this. Makar in the book, this is, Makar is from the book, But this Lionel thing is additive, right? And so to have two, you know, very well-established houses, offer him a position, an offer to complete his training, and Macar has that line that we talked about on Talks at Thrones where he's like, I'm sure your Sir Arlen did his best. But the way in which Dunk's whole journey this season ends with him, you know, determining that Arlen did do best and he doesn't want to learn the lessons that these Targaryens and Baratheons have to teach him. Sir Arlen had the truth of what being a knight is, being a good person is, and the road is his teacher. And so to come from I'm nobody from nowhere showing up at the tourney and, oh, please, can someone, like, someone, senpai, notice me and, like, take me under your wing. I must risk all. And I will, and then I'll be okay. To being, like, so self-confident. I mean, he's not a hugely self-confident person in general. But don't give me a shirt. Yeah. Dunk in this adaptation is more confident than Dunk in the book in a number of interactions in this make our interaction that we get inside this episode as well. There are like tweaks they made to make him a bit more self-assured. But to go from having Egg say, like, why do you treat these royal lapdogs as if they're your betters, to Dunk just internally, not saying the thing, but through his actions, realizing I'm the best that there is here to tell me what to do. Or the ghost of Sir Arlen that's in my head and not these other lords. And I just think that that journey for him is incredible because, like, so many things went wrong. And there are plenty of people who come out the other side of this particular adventure saying, like, I shouldn't have even tried. Look what I did. And he certainly here, bruising battering against the tree, is like, I bring death and destruction wherever I go and harm. But, like, that's not the total, some total lesson that he took out of this. Yeah, I think it's great, too, that we get a journey inside of just the finale that maps on and is an extension of and, like, a fulfillment of the journey across the entire season in that respect. Because even inside of the finale, he has to move toward the point of after the Darren exchange, after the Arlen memory, to, like, the embrace for himself. But then to take it to that next degree of, and actually, I should take Ed with me. because that's going to be better for him, too, is such a remarkable thing. Now, it does mean that he's not going to go to Tarth with Lionel, at least not yet. How thrilled are you to get this Tarth mention? I squeaked. I mean, of all the, like, sometimes we like to say, this is here for me, but this is, like, really here for you. We've been talking about Brienne and Dunk. This is Brienne's home. Mentioned, Tarth. I squeaked in a very cool way. It was totally fine. No, I loved this. And I also loved the, you know, he swears, right? He, others gelled me or whatever. Yeah, the others fucking gelled me. And I loved that because that's a, you know, that's a, I read somewhere, I don't know if this is true, but I read somewhere that that's the first time we've heard the others called the others in a Game of Thrones on-screen adaptation, right? Because, like, instead of White Walkers. And, but in the book, like, starting with Game of Thrones, this other, like, the others take his eyes or all that, you know, this is a thing that like Rob says or, you know, old man, we'll talk about the others or brand or, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And so that just felt like a real like ball knower moment from, from Ira inside of this episode. I love it. Speaking of ball knower and Ira and his vision, we did get another piss or shit scene. And I think we knew we would because Lionel and making this offer, come with me to Storm's End and I will love you like a brother. and if not, well, fuck you, I'll hate you like a brother. We got the second part of that while he's dick out, dick in hand. Were you upset that it was like a discreet sort of turn away you didn't get to see when he was working with there? I respect each individual performer's choice for how to navigate nudity on screen and or wearing a prosthetic on screen. And listen, in a show where we saw Arlen piss with The Long Night, still think that was the best nominee of all the nominees we got. it almost wouldn't be fair to show anybody else. Take it a fifth. You know, does Lionel want Dunk to be his brother in the more Targaryen sense? You know, an intimate sense? I'd say so. I think so. Shout out to you for inspiring with your cottage heated rivalry bit on Talk to Thrones, one of the great reels in the history of the Ringer Bros Instagram. Just a delightful moment on the Internet. That was wonderful. Meek Arn Baylor. So Egg and Arian, Baylor employer employing Egg in episode four, you know, the septancy, we must love our brothers. This has been a through line of this season, this idea that these brotherly bonds exist on a knife's edge. And sometimes that is the person who you fear the most, hate the most, resent the most. Sometimes it is the person that you love the most, but often, and we love a found family story, the bond you choose, Duncan Egg, Lionel and his pitch here is like, that could be us, my guy. that found friendship can be stronger than the brotherly bond that you're born into. And it's important to note that Lionel Barathing is not the head of his house right now. And so like what are his family dynamics? That's you know, that's not something George has like super fleshed out. We got some, I think, therapy couch insights based on his comments about whether or not your mother loves you last week though. Absolutely. He told us something even though he hasn't actually told us anything. But I think that the idea of like bringing an ally back to Storm's End, you know, for a 24-7 stag do, you know, sounds really fun. Dunk is, you know, working toward the point that we were just discussing of really embracing the life of a Hedge Knight and the legacy of a Hedge Knight from Arlen. But right here, he's like, I shouldn't be around anyone. I shouldn't be around you and I shouldn't be around anyone. All I do is bring pain and suffering to those around me. That line, that idea, very much connected to what we've been discussing over the last couple weeks. Dunk as the stranger. Right. As we map the seven deities onto various characters, something we were sort of holding back until Balor's brain fell out of his head was whether or not that Dunk himself was acting the role of the stranger who brings death. And the way that he is navigating in this episode, subtly also through active conversations, like saying to Raymond, just everyone blames me. The conversation with Makar, obviously, which we're really excited to talk about. this guilt and the shame for what has happened but something like this just the fear here right there's the oh my god i'm carrying a heavy weed because of what happened and my role in it and then there's the i can't risk that i can't risk harm befalling people i care about just by being around me and this was an area where i felt like hitting the finale off of you know we discussed a lot the merits of the flashback and what we learned and maybe some of the things in the flashback that didn't work quite as well. This was a line that I think hit harder, having understood a little bit more about the losses across Dunk's life, and thinking about how something like, Rafe, we still have some notes. How long has Dunk been maybe wondering about how his just proximity to people causes damage? Yeah. Sad. Sad. Lionel's like, I got some other stuff for you to think about. I'm about to say some shocking shit. You thought it was astonishing to hear what Raymond said about the Tarks? Buckle up, buddy. Buckle up. I was about to call Funeral Pyro Roast. That was really funny. And I say that as, like, the president of Baylor's fan club. Yeah. The roast and the cut. The roast and then the cut, too, and I was like, oh. Genuinely very good. Quite rude, but very good. What ro-oh. Wild. Wild thing to say. Okay, here are some of the highlights from what Lionel says here about Baylor and the Tarks. He's been hitting the message board pretty hard. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Some real reply guy energy from Lionel here. You've done the realm of kindness. You'll see that one day. The only good dragon is a dead dragon. Overt, outright treasonous statement. There's just no denying it. This is really bold especially from a figure like Lionel. Some hard racism, yeah. I thought for you. Harding, bees, bury the fucking apple boy. This is probably going to be incorporated into the pod logo. Hardy Beesbury and the fucking Apple Boy. That's just like the long line for the pod now. It's funny because it's like Beesbury, obviously. Sure. The fucking Apple Boy for sure. Our guy. Yeah. I'll say our for now. Yeah. Raymond Foxway. I love Raymond. Uh-huh. And I was like, does Hardy belong in the logo? And I'm like, green fucking boys. Green fucking boys. One of my favorite lines of the season. So, yeah. Yeah, and again, we'd like to thank him for his dead body being so easy to spot among the carnage. Thanks to his very thoughtful, very recognizable shield. We fought for you. Your prince fought for you against men sworn to protect him. He risked nothing. And the gods don't favor a fraud. I was like, how dare you, like, physically moving forward on my cast listening to this. But, you know, does he have some points? We'll talk about it. And then he says, there's a war coming. We could be a force, you and I. So let's hit the overt anti-Tarx sentiment here for a second. and just this evolution of the relationship between the Targaryens and the Baratheons over time, because it's certainly interesting, especially paired with this war omen. To think about that, what did you make of just hearing the direct, very blunt and naked nature of what Lionel said here? Well, I think after Incestuous Aliens, like, we should be braced for anyone to say anything out of pocket about a Targaryen or to see children at a funeral say dragon whore, you know? Eat shit, Sarah. Possibly my favorite moment of the season. She didn't respond to that. I have some questions. Absolutely. I can't. I can't. That's just so I thought it was great. Yeah, throwing rocks at Prince Arian Targaryen's head out in the list fields. It's just out there in the water, you know? Flop era. Flop era. And so, but the Baratheons, you know, you did such a good job on Talk of Thrones, And if you want to run it back, I would eagerly hear it again, like tracking the Baratheon Targ closeness and enmity across, you know, the centuries in Westeros. And, you know, what it pinged for me was Robert Baratheon talking to Ned Stark. And I think season one, episode two, you know, I read the line out on Talk to Thrones, but just sort of like there's a war coming that like, right. And so it's just that same Baratheon energy. You can talk about historical, but, like, Robert just wants a war because a war makes him feel important and strong and young. And however much trauma he's carrying about war and, you know, they don't tell you how they shit themselves and stuff like that, he also longs for the days of his war hammer. God, I was strong. So, yeah. Lionel's spoiling for a fight, right? Like, he's not talking about a war that is for sure coming, though there is anti-Targ sentiment everywhere. So, like, and then as I think you point out really beautifully in Talk of Thrones, we saw Targ v. Targ in this very tourney. You know what I mean? So inside the house, outside the house, just a few years removed from the first Blackfire Rebellion. There's a lot going on here. Yeah. But Lionel is eager for a conflict. The bloodlust is upon him. No question. Yeah. Yeah. No question. I, like, I'm curious. It's interesting to think about how many other people who were at Ashford or just across the realm as word of what has happened here, word of Baylor's death, and the nature of it spreads, would, like, fall into the, wow, what a noble, good, and right thing camp. and how many people would come out more in this place of, like, the hubris and the entitlement to think that you could cheat the gods. I am always so interested in how characters in the world invoke that. And I think you're really right about Lionel and the way that he seems. And, again, very in keeping not only with this, like, Barathean legacy and future legacy. It's fun for us as Thrones fans to be able to apply events from the future timeline to just thinking about this house and its stature and how they think about the Storm Kings of old. We had a lot of fun talking at the beginning of the season about, bro, it's just wearing a crown. And that's a brazen act. It is. And it's one thing to incorporate the antlers into your helm of your armor, but to sit at your banquet in a crown is just a wild, wild thing. Did you see Daniela talking about how heavy the helmet was? The antler horn helmet? And it would just, like, fall over. It was just dragging your head back. You got to do the F1-style training. You know, they do these, like, neck exercises because of the G-force of driving because the F1 car is open. I mean, I'm sure even if it were closed, the G-force would be, I don't know, in Top Gun. You know who I bet could handle the G-force? Who? The Pilates moms who are really concerned about their neck exercises. Love knowing this. I would like to see a Pilates mom take on the F1. You going to watch Racket Survive this weekend? No. Okay, I'm going to text you again and ask you tomorrow and then the next day, and then I'm going to keep asking. But I will watch Survivor, and so you are an influence on me. Great. That's all I need, honestly. Season 50, here we go. So, yeah, you mentioned this. I think just the, if anyone didn't watch Talk to Thrones, the leg, I think the Robert point is the most crucial one because of the associations that we're bringing. No, but it's interesting to think about, like, yeah, the history. Oris Baratheon, the founder of this house, who slew Argelok. this famous moment in Aegon's Conquest and Orris as the bastard's half-brother rumored, but like kind of bastard half-brother. That's how we get to always think and talk about this drop of targ blood that makes its way into the Baratheon house, which is certainly also a factor here. Which legitimizes Robert Clane. Well, we've got this fancy blood too. Firsthand to the king, so there's this real entrenchment in just the established order of how the kingdoms would be ruled, but also an affection. and, like, the best friends, right, a depth of connection there. You have Robert all the way at the other end of this is, like, the figure who, for all of these very meaningful and personal reasons, but also all of the reasons that you mentioned, Rhaegar, Lyanna, everything, ended three centuries of rule. Like, the Targaryen dynasty lasted three centuries, so that's no joke. But then it's like, what are the moments along the way? Like, we're obviously not going to spoil things that we have not gotten to in House of the Dragon yet, but we've already seen the Baratheons be deployed inside of two, through two seasons of House of the Dragon as a house that's still, you're picking between targs, but still a shifting of allegiance. A controversial moment in choice that led to one of these seismic ripples in the dance. I think that Lionel Baratheon would hate Boros and Bormund Baratheon. Who doesn't? to be fair who doesn't people like that Luceric Lionel we have some notes but like as far as the Baratheon we've met he's top of my list I love Lionel one of the most entertaining characters in the history of television I feel wounded by some of what he said here but I love to watch him and I would happily just spend every week with him on a television show I can't decide if I want the Lionel spinoff or the Raymond Red spinoff more like they both would be wonderful new barrel spinoff please But Daniel Hanks has said, I've been in the wikis, so I know that I could come back in a future season of this show. I am very excited to see how they figure out how quickly to get him back in the movie. I would be shocked if we didn see him soon And on the War Omen front you know the idea of the susceptibility of the Targaryens right now Flop era Flop era I mean, like you said, Blackfyre's just not that long ago, 13 years. So who from outside or inside is looking and saying this is a moment? This is a moment to try to pounce? Fascinating stuff. What about this idea of the way that he's speaking about Baelor acting dishonorably? What do you make of this? I don't want to offend you. Tell me. No, no, no. Not at all. As Queen Bee of the Baelor fan club. Let's hear it. I mean, he's not incorrect that Baelor was like, hey, man, if I fight on our side, then the Kingsguard can't touch me. You know, that there were some tactics going on. But in terms of, like, which Targaryen is enacting an injustice, Baelor's way down the list, you know? So I don't think we should be, like, that worried about it. Listen, I think the points are valid. I think it's a free exchange of ideas. And as we discussed, we kind of talked about this last week, given the, like, pre-judgment issued by a couple members of Baylor's side before the trial began, which was interesting. Hubris on display, no question. Here's my take. You ready for this? Don't let the evil people win. They're not the only ones who get to look for a fucking edge. When they go low, we go lower. Come on! Why is it shameful or an affront to the gods or dishonorable to say I'm going to ensure or work hard to look for an edge and a way to say I'm going to find the path to victory? Victory I am pursuing because it is what is right and what is noble and what is just and what is good. Do you know how one should respond to a critique? I think you should give it the old dare in Targaryen shrug. The old, what are you doing here? You're responsible for these people's death. Baylor you're suggesting something that kind of flouts the rules of chivalry here's what Baylor could have done if you were alive but I'm going to do it for him because his brain fell to the floor his brain is out of his head baby get a quote his own brother Makar have you heard of him lots one of the things that he said I was sad that we didn't get any more plumber and we didn't get any more of Harold guy I know he could have done something in the finale yeah I don't know what help Rowan and Raven toss over their nice soil piss pot why not okay great something for everyone oh my god it may be that the gods have a taste for cruel japes or perhaps there are no gods perhaps none of this had any meaning which again we talked about last week but I do think this is always an interesting litmus test for characters in the world and just in discussing it like do you are you inclined to see some sort of divine judgment or is part of the point as you perceive it that in george's world as is often the case in the real world horrible things happen all the time even to good people who try to do the right thing which is heavy shit to carry on George Front. You shared this on TTT. Talk to Therese. To translate me. One thing that is undeniable is the consequence of this moment. The butterfly effect, the dragon wing effect, the ripples. This is from a Penguin Random House conversation in 2022. So, recently. ish. Q&A. Q&A. And George was asked about moments that really radically impacted the history of Westeros, the history of the realm. There are a couple of them, he said. I think in the Hedge Knight, the first Duncan Egg story, the death of Baelor Breakspear, who was the heir. Next in line to the throne, and I think would have been a very strong and very competent king who dies to defend the honor of an insignificant hedge knight. Ellipses. How is Westeros history different if Baelor does not die? that would be very significant. So I would just like to reread one line. And I think would have been a very strong and very competent king so Lionel can eat shit, just like Sarah, playing the game on the floor. You know who else is appalled by Lionel's words? Dunk. Right? Oh, yeah. He's shaken by this. And, of course, Duncan's glad to be treasurer of your Baylor fan club. I don't know. I don't know if I want Duncan to charge his money. What would be a better cabinet position for Duncan? Puppets, and I think you know that to be true. Dunk can be like my minister of defense. He's been on puppets. I do love a puppet show, though. Secretary of the Arts, that could be egg. You know, I think. Dunk attends a meeting. He's like, I brought you all these puppets, and you're like, where are the coffers? He's like, coffers are empty. Empty. They're fucking empty. They're full of puppets. Yeah. But then I would ask, why are they empty? And he'd say, I spent my last couple coffers on some oats and apples for sweet food. And I'd say, okay. I also hammered a few into a tree. Don't worry about it. dunk swore to be baylor's man right and it was beautiful and he grew up hearing these stories from arlen about baylor's chivalry and then he's got to see and this is a rare thing in life genuinely he got to see the merit of those words right and does that mean that every single thing baylor did is pure but no as we've talked about would that be interesting no Lionel. He started hearing like real nurse Dana in that moment. Literally the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me. You're welcome. Thank you. Wow. Yeah. Thank you. She's my fucking queen. She's the best. This isn't Philly. All right, this is not Philly. Dunk's not finished with his hard conversations, right? He's carrying a lot of guilt. He knows that he owes, believes he owes something more than this to Baylor's memory. and so he is inclined to... Incline. Incline to incline. Watching the funeral, and then he's going to make a visit. So as you know, we cut from the word roast to the funeral pyre wild stuff. Small crowd. But we would be remiss if we did not know that among the assembled... Hot Rollie. He's here. Got to see him once more with his helmet off. Now were you going to mention a more important character? Maybe. No, I was going to say that the King's Guard are showing up. Yeah. Crab Nepo Baby and Hot Rolling, as you call them, are at both funerals. And I think it's a bit audacious that they went to the Beesbury Harding funeral, given that they were directly involved in the death of the Humphreys. Let me just throw this out there. That's just like a communal tent. That's just like a market tent. You know? No. That was a wake was happening. Don't have your wake in a public square. And they were like, we heard there was an open bar, so we're going to come to the funeral, the guys that we put in the ground. Plenty of space in Ashford Meadow for a more private accommodation. There's only two of them, though, because good old Will and Wild had to be carried off the field. Yeah, he's nursing some injuries. I don't know what quality of Mace story is attending to him. I mean, he's not making it to the funerals. How do you think his wounds smell? This is a very small crowd. It was interesting to compare who's here in this shot versus the concept art that they put in behind the scenes. It was a much bigger crowd in that. So I don't know if it was budgetary or they made an artistic decision of, like, but, like, Lord Ashford isn't there. Like, there's a number of people who aren't there. Nor should he be. Like, Manfred Dondarrion is there because he's related to the Targaryens. But, like, where's everyone else putting in their respects? Yeah. I mean, like, it's very weird that Lord Ashford isn't there. It's weird that, like, Lea Longthorpe isn't there. Like, there's a number of conspicuous absences. And you can then, it leaves it to us to kind of, like, interpret that. Is it the choice of the family to make this a small and private affair? Or is it a reflection of the state of play? It is fascinating. Flop era or, ew, we're all uncomfortable that we were involved in this. Lord Ashford's like, they're going to kill me if I go. But Gwen, get out there! We need an Ashford job in line in the finale. I was thinking of little baby Balon, Air for a Day, his funeral scene, at the beginning of Hathi season one, where, famously, Rhaenyra called forth Cyrax and said Dracarys in a very fancy way. Dracarys. Yes. Yeah. Just so. Not quite in fact sure. And a dragon breathes flame down onto the pyre, and here they're like, torched to wood. It's just a great reminder of where they are. It is. Flopera. I would like you to paint a picture for you. Please. Okay, so Cyrax is obviously not available. No. No living dragon is available. They're all dead. Sad. Sad. But there are puppets. Oh, my God. You think they should have brought out the tattered and decimated puppet that sparked this ruinous affair. And then just had a little pollen. Gets pollen ready. Could have worked. You're looking for drama. Have you thought about puppets? As you know, I'm always thinking about puppets. It's a great idea. I wonder if, like, Arian would have been able to appreciate that from his sickbed, or if he just would have been offended to have the puppet invoked at any point. That guy is on Mars thanks to Milk of the Poppy. A lot of Milk of the Poppy. He is not thinking his way out of Milk of the Poppy. Can I read this quote that you have here in the notes here, which I love? Quote, Other great houses might choose to bury their dead in the dark earth or sink them in the cold green sea, but the Targaryens were the blood of the dragon, and their ends were ripped. in flame. He had been the finest knight of his age and some argued that he should have gone to face the dark clad and mail and plate a sword in his hand. In the end though his royal father's wishes prevailed and Daryl II had a peaceable nature. So what is informed here is not just that Targaryens puppet or no, need fire you know, they want to burn the bodies. Okay, great. But there was the timeline's a little bit different in the novella. In that there's, like, time, I guess, to send a raven to Darren II to say, hey, what should Bailer Briggs wear on his funeral pyre? And he's like, well, how about just, like, a little bit of gold plating around the cake? A real decorative visor situation, please. So I thought that was interesting, right? Because, like, there's some random... Time has passed, because, like, Dunk's eyes not blush, but it's still small and shy. And he's in his bloody shirt. I would say, like, three days max. Yeah. There's some rando targs there, but I don't think they had time to, like, ship any targs in. All of those people had to have already been at Ashford Meadow. Right. So, yeah. Why not take Baylor all the way back? Why don't they take the ashes back and do some fun, targgy stuff with the ashes? I can't believe this guy got burned by a wooden torch at fucking Ashford Meadow. When it could have been a puppet. Exactly what I meant. Exactly. After the funeral, Dunk goes over to Valar. Valar, the young prince, who is now heir to the Iron Throne. Okay, can I clarify something really quickly? Because I actually got a couple emails about this. People were confused why Makar wasn't next in line. And so just some refresher on the family tree and just how the line of succession works, right? So to use a modern example, if King Charles had died before Queen Elizabeth died, it would have been William next in line. Not one, I think it would be Anne, right? Like not one of Charles's siblings. It goes like directly down the firstborn, firstborn, firstborn, firstborn. Yeah. I know you know this. I'm just saying this. People don't know. So if William died before Charles dies, it's not Harry, it's George, like William's son, right? So Baelor died, it's Valar, his son is next in line. And not only that, but there's a couple other brothers. Ares would be the next brother. Right, so Baelor and then his firstborn is next in line. And should Valar have a kid, it would be his firstborn, et cetera, et cetera. Probably firstborn male, because we learned some things from the realms not ready. Yes, exactly. And right, so it's possible, especially still close to hot D, that that is part of what people are bumping on. because her niece is the queen who never was, she is the daughter of the original heir, Eamon. So the reason that she, like, it's a little different in the text than the show, but that's because she was a woman and not because of that being the proper line. So, yeah, through that Baylor line. And then to the other brothers, should it go that way? Ares? Not Makar. Makar's the fourth bro. Fourth brother. Baby bro. Baby bro. Serious question for you. The stripe, because Velar is sitting kind of in profile, the stripe of gray hair. Silver targ hair. We get to see the little bit. He's got Baylor's brown hair, but then he's got a little silver signature targ popping through. Who wore it better on the stripe of gray hair front? Velar, the young prince, are yours, truly. You don't have that much gray hair. And should you, it would look, I've seen it. I know. I stare at you all the time. I think it looks beautiful and distinguished. but you're not like Bonnie Rae over there like you don't have like a ton of you'll get there I'll let you know when you get there then we can do a Who Wore It Better but right now it's Valar who's like really rocking the silver I love it I love it he's in a mood he's grieving obviously his father and I would say he's not celebrating the fact that he is now the heir he's struggling with the loss of his father but also and the injustice of it certainly based on what he says to Dunk but a little bit I think based on what he says about the armor here he died in my armor plenty of sons have died in their father's armor how many fathers have died in their sons, which is a nice way to remind us, the viewer, that this was not supposed to happen. Baylor wasn't supposed to fight. He didn't even have his own armor yet to borrow his kids. Got a little bit from Valar of the, like, I am ashamed that he was out there in my armor and I did not go out there in it. I should have fought, perhaps. Which is a nice little element to get from him. Not a character we've spent a ton of time with. And then he says, he was still young. He had it in him to be a great king. Preach. The greatest since Aegon the Dragon. Why would the gods take him and leave you? I don't know why you built an entire straw man out of one Baratheon bloviating by a creep. I just, like, it's outrageous. Anyone out there in the listenership who's like, Baelor, what a joke. Challenge Lionel. God damn it. So the second thing that Falar says, though, why would the gods take him and leave you is heart-wrenching. And Dunk says, I've wondered the same thing. Here is a beautiful passage from the book. Dunk sat beneath his elm and stared morosely at his foot. I always love that. We'll come back to the foot. We will definitely come back to the foot. I think that it takes a lot of courage for Dunk to do what he does here and go and seek out Valar. It's on my mind based on what Dunk says to Darren later, you know, because he basically gives Darren a version of what Valar gives him here, which is like, how dare you show your face? This is your fault. And it's not Dunk's fault. The way that Darren actually is complicit because of his lie, which allowed Arian to make the trial of seven pitch. To be fair. But it's like, what is, maybe Darren's there as part of his coping mechanism. No, but to be fair. To bees. Dunk is there, like, hobbling towards the crown prince, the heir to the throne, to offer his condolences. Yes. Darren's there to get a shit face. And to shrug. And to shrug. Yeah. to anesthetize the wound that he got from the horse stepping on him. Wild stuff. He looks wonderful. It's a real glow up after the trial. But he's not there to make amends. Certainly not. I think it's interesting to think about his, especially because Dunk's, like, having no shame. I think Darren has, in some respects, no shame, and in other respects, he's really burdened by his shame. Marinating and shame. Yeah. I think with Dunk, undeniably, he is not looking for, not only is he not looking for absolution, He is trying to express his regrets and his sympathies, and he's trying to understand. He's trying to process how this could be the outcome, how this could be something that the gods or anyone else thought was just. I did like that. I really like that Lionel moment when, you know, after the gods don't favor a fraud, when Dunk's like, why do they favor me? And Lionel's like, that's not favoring. That's mockery. No, but, like, I thought Peter Claffy's delivery of that, of, like, why the gods favor me. me and we got several emails about you know i think i said on talk i'm sure i said on talk to thrones like we get confirmation that dunk was not knighted that is not uh how the people who wrote that scene have decided uh it means and that's fine and it's like i'm not upset if it's ambiguous i think it's preposterous that it's ambiguous but i'm not upset about that but there's just so many moments because it's like a fraud then why would you know like he considers himself a fraud why is he considered himself a fraud because he's not a knight like he's just so clearly not a knight yeah but if you guys want to keep the question mark in the air then that's fine we love a healthy debate i was very surprised by that framing uh very surprised because they even like they even confirmed that this is like the night he died yeah storm is breaking yeah It's the setting where he's buried. He's got to. And then Ira Parker's like, but he could have got up right after he said that and knighted him. Yeah. Listen, if he got up, here's what I hope, genuinely. He used his final breath to say, dig that grave at least one foot deeper. You've seen what I'm working with here. It's going to take a lot of inches to bury me. Okay. Oh, my God. Mr. and Mrs. Fossaway of the Green Apple Fossaways. Thank you for that. You're welcome. I loved this sequence before he, you know, Raymond called out to him. Dunk from his shitty little tent in the distance. But, like, before that, we see all these people watching Dunkin', and we've been talking all season about, like, what it means for someone to look at Dunk. Usually it's, like, a steely pate or a plumber or a red or just someone who's just, like, taking another look at this guy who's like quite unusual but now he's just burdened with like a much larger set of expectations and reputations and whispers and rumors that Makar of course will talk to him about and I just I just loved it really ran ran the gamut of like how people were looking at him yeah but he does not have the luxury of moving through the world incognito anymore no more he was always like quite tall so it's not like he like cut a really sneaky figure through the world, but now it's just sort of like, that's Duncan the Tall. He's already famous. Good luck to him and Egg. Being incognito on the road. I just got some questions. I do. Yeah, I like that there are the people who seem to be looking at him through the eyes of like, you're a famous figure of myth now, and I got to see it. How cool. I was there. This thing you did, and then there are definitely people who are like, yeah, I blame you for this, and you can feel it all very quickly, and then when these whispers are invoked by make are we've already gotten to feel the truth of that in a very quick and effective way and and dunk you know he's he's sensing that too he's feeling it you can feel when people are looking at you as you walk past he's already had this exchange with velar he's had this exchange with lionel he sat for how many days we don't know rotting against his elm he's got a lot on his mind a lot that he's working through and he unburdens himself to raymond he says everyone blames me for what happened here and raymond good friend ride or die says i don't and then gives him one of the longest hugs that I've ever seen. And I say this as someone who loves a long hug. I once suffered a rib contusion hugging Sean Fennessey for too long. I just heard that story very recently. Yeah. Last week. The day that the Ringer website launched. Yeah. In 2016. Wrapped my arms around him and hugged and hugged and hugged. And I, right here. Sometimes I still feel like a, it's like, I thought the way you told me it was like, he hugged you too hard and broke you. No, you feel like very rigidly sat there. Oh. And I had to squeeze. You flung yourself at him and squoze him, and in the squeezing, pop. I had to go to urgent care the next day. I was in agony. No, I just really like that Raymond is just committed to the bed and wants to keep hugging, and Doug's like, are we done yet? Are we done yet? Are we done yet? Are we done yet? Well, Raymond, you know, very recently has learned the pleasures of physical contact. Am I squeezed? Yeah. So listen, Raymond introduces his new branding. He does the green apple. Yeah. Thought that the sigil looked like a green pepper. nope it looks beautiful looks like a green pepper a bell pepper which I like a bell pepper better than a green apple um and I think it was wild I think we alluded to this but like what's wild in the book is that he gets that painting done and he was carrying the shield in the tourney yeah but in in in the book he's like he gets knighted and he's like BRB got some arts and crafts and he gets the new sigil painted I don't know who did it for him because Tencel is already fucked up out of town right yeah So I guess he did it himself. Who's to say? But the green apple fossil ways are born here in this very moment. It's wonderful. And they're going to stick around, man. The green apple fossil ways of New Barrel. Yeah. New Barrel is excellent branding. Cider Hall, also excellent. Yeah. The red apple fossil ways of Cider Hall suck. Stefan is. The green apple fossil ways of New Barrel. I agree. Rule. I agree. Doesn't mean a green apple tastes good, but I agree. This red twist is so good. this is not in the book at all. Red is not even like a character in the novella. We've already almost no women. Correct. And so think of how many lines we got from women in this episode. Red says Rowan, if you prefer, says so much. Gwyn has a line. Gwyn has a line. We're really doing it here. Wolf 2.0 here in 97 Kingdom. Yeah, and Red, like, the way that she's communicating to Dunk with glances and little looks, wonderful stuff like Dunk, Class solidarity. Yeah. Yes, exactly. She, shout out to Rhett. She saw her opportunity here and she took it and she landed herself a lovely guy. Good for them. Good for them. I love this dynamic. It's wonderful. She's way smarter than him. I mean, she was right to call out the ambulance. She is. Extremely hot. I think he's going to be happy. He's like very nice. Has a bunch of money. She's married now. I think she's going to treat him well. I think he's going to treat her like a princess. and I think it's just going to be a great marriage. I genuinely think this is going to be a great marriage. And I think it's a victimless crime. I, like, don't think it's a problem. I think that it is a little bit of a shame that Sweet Raymond is the only person in the realm who knows less about sex than Dunk. Cider Hall, not strong on the sex ed front, does not understand how long it takes to really anything about the female anatomy or the process of impregnating a woman. so I feel a little bit bad for him that he's I guess raising Sir Manfred Dondarrions possibly if she's pregnant at all probably but like he's just going to be a great dad he'll be a great dad no question it won't matter and the kid will be better off with Raymond with fucking Sir Manfred no question and listen if it comes out of redhead it's okay because she has red hair and he never needs to know that it's from the Dondarrions exactly right just for the sheer pleasure of it let's watch this exchange love to I have no squire to see to my wounds and she offered to help me out my armor Anyway, she said I've got a with child now, so I figured we ought to get married. Feels like a boy. That's what I instantly iconic scene. Peter. That's so good. Peter's reaction is so funny. Dunk's reaction is so funny. Her being like, nice to meet you. Like, you've never met me. I'm Lady Rowan. Quick on the uptake, Dunk. Rowan's interesting. I am baffled by this. I am. The actress's name is Rowan. Yeah. Rowan Robinson, no relation. I wish there was, because she's amazing. But Rowan Robinson is the actress, so they just gave her that name. But there is a prominent, very prominent character in season two who has a similar name. Very similar. It felt definitely a very similar side. Could have gone with any other name. Probably. But they didn't. Do you think that the implication, when she's saying her name is Lady Rowan, Do you think the implications that she's from House Rowan? Like, that's what she's trying to pull one over? That's a bigger con job. That's an established house in the Reach. Yeah. That also, then, is a connection to events to come. That would be interesting. It's entirely possible. But maybe Raymond just used the performer's name by mistake, and they're like, let's just keep it. What if it's that? Why try to do another mistake? What if it's that? that was fucking perfect I just love this I just like I'm so happy for them I wish them out absolutely wonderful I also think Green Apple Red Apple Apple Wars Eternal but all of that aside it is lovely to see the new sigil because it connects to Dunk and his device and this idea we've been talking about all season of how something branding like yeah yes lean into the branding but like capture something about the path that you are going to forge for yourself like Raymond having his version of that is just really cool. Well, also, like, Red renaming herself, like, Lady Rowan, like, Duncan the Tall. She's just sort of like, I've decided I'm Lady Rowan. Now I'm Lady Fossil. And Raymond doesn't fucking know any better or how to fact check. And, frankly, if he did, he probably wouldn't care because it's just time of his life. Time of his life? She's going to have a great life. I feel like the cider empire is going to thrive under her. Like, I just, yeah. Entrepreneurial spirit. That's clear. Absolutely. That's clear. Yeah. I love a cider. You're her treasurer of your Baylor Breakthrough. Without hesitation. Yeah. Yeah. Again, Dunk is not right for that role, but I think Red would be sensational. Girlbop. Sensational. Girlbop thing. Maybe Gwyn can come in and work on social media. Sure. Makar. Makar summons Dunk. Dunk is pulled away from this beautiful moment with Rowan and Raymond. The soldiers, Makar's riders emerge. And Raymond, again, he's just like rider died all the way. He's like, you're not going to take my guy. They can cut him down in a second. He's about to fight them. Oh, one last thing I want to say before we leave the fossil ways, and then we'll come back to them, obviously. But, like, boy, will we. She's, like, she's wearing a shirt. It's so cute. Shocking and bold of you to invoke the shirt that she's wearing, given that it's a red apple shirt. Well, they're going to burn it when they get back to New Barrel. But, like, I just think that's so cute. She's just, like, dressed in his tunic. Like, you know, dumping some piss. Yeah. Romance in real life. Okay. Makar is sending soldiers to get Dunk. This is a change I don't one million percent love from the book, because in the book, Makar comes to the tree where Dunk is like, you know. I like that that's like a humbling gesture for Makar to come out to the tree instead he summons him. Do you think he's like, there's just been too much talk of itchy assholes by this here Elm for me to? He has no way to know it, but I have to say, he disrespects trees later, and I just hope that Tolkien didn't hear him do it. He's like, what does your tree have to say about that? Don't. And I'm like, don't disrespect the trees. The Lorax will have a problem. Tolkien now has a problem. I have a problem. The professor is always welcome, so he probably could sense it. Mika. Mika. He's sitting at a desk, a desk made of wood, a wood that came from a tree. Reading a book, a book made of wood, a wood that came from a tree. I was trying to transition right there. Learn from the desk. he's reading he's reading a book i don't know if they're bailers books or lord ashford's books like yeah but you think it's the same book that bailor was last reading so that this is like because i love the little like kind of little subtle head shape yeah almost like he's trying to understand why bailor is where the dumb trial of seven trial of seven came from from the stupid fucking book um what i really love that they talked about on the behind the scenes is that they like wanted to this is the same room this is a prince of the blood and dunk once again etc but instead of warm candlelight we're in sort of cold gray uh dawn sort of light and that it just should feel cold and bereft of light and life because you can't say bereft on a night of the seven kingdoms podcast without us thinking about alice of three fingers three fingers born bereft of thumb sorry He's just like, Pavlovian for me now. You were just going to add it to your throne's treks. Exactly. Just like, keep a little. Ball and breath to thumbs. I was making a very emotional point. I was like, I could know about the absence of your guy at Baylor and how he took all the light with him when he left. You know what I love about that, especially is like, toward the end of the scene, the framing changes and Dunk moves in front of the natural light and so the shadow is all around him but there's this little beam just on Dunk Beautiful stuff. Makar, we're going to get to Baylor, and we're going to get to Egg, but he starts with Arian. He says, I'm sending him to the East. A few years in the Free Cities may change him for the better. Dunk does not respond to this, because what would he say? But in the book, we're in his head, and here's what he thinks. Dunk had never been to the Free Cities, so he did not know what to say to that. He was pleased that Arian was gone from the Seven Kingdoms and hoped he never came back. But that was not a thing you told a father of his son. Love this line. So this is like, you know, this speaks to sort of some, like, reticence and some, you know, minding his tongue from Dunk, which later when he's telling Makar about Arian and Darren, like, in the book he has to be coerced into saying that. Right. Right? Makar's like, go on, say it. What do you want to say? And in this show, he just comes out and say it. And that is that thing we've been seeing all season from Dunk where he's just a little brasher and a little bolder. And structurally, like, splitting their conversation over two scenes so that more can happen in between for Dunk allows that to feel like a really authentic journey for him. Yeah, but it also just feels like all season they've been making him a bit more audacious. Also, I think it's like, so as someone who, and I don't look great in this story because I'm the Aryan, Targaryen of the situation, but when I was a, like, problem teenager, my parents sent me to Italy for the summer to, like, get my head on straight. Disgusting. But that was just sort of like, did it work? Sure. I was totally fixed. But, like, that was punishment. I was punished by going to Italy when, like, other 18-year-olds would be, like, dying to go. I was grateful and thrilled to be there. But it was just sort of, like, when I talk to people about that as, like, how my parents punished me for being a rotten teenager, they're like, that's gross, right? And so for Macar to say, I'm sending him to the free cities as punishment when this was, like, race, like, fondest dreams. to escape. They scrimped and they saved and they struggled and they all she wanted to do was go to the free cities and this is a punishment for a rich fuckboy. The universe isn't fair. No. It's not. But how do you think it'll go for Arianne? Stay tuned. We'll talk about it in the spoiler section. Our listener Michael said, a small moment but I really loved Makar getting up and limping in front of Duncan. It's one thing to see Lionel and Raymond limp but to have and Michael wrote Crown Prince. He's not the Crown Prince, but to have a Prince of the Blood show that weakness and share trauma with Duncan speaks a lot about his state of mind. He's not trying to embody power at that point. He's just a grieving brother and sad dad thinking about what went wrong. I love that. I think in general, I mean, we talked on Talk to Thrones about just this performance from Sam Sproul in this episode is really wonderful. I thought that all of the Makar scenes were great and the thickness of the emotion, but like, you know, he still has some sassy moments in these conversations, which we'll get to, but there is like especially here this opening beat in place that we find him it's like the sarcastic quality that has defined our time with him this season the kind of like caustic tone it's just it's the grief but it's like the kind of quiet disbelieving stillness that we find him in like i lost my brother who despite everything i love and also i am my role in this my role because of my children but my role in my hand directly like it's such a human place to find him and the things that he's about to say are so human. And I liked it, like, opening with this area and information is for us as readers and viewers so that we understand, but it feels too like it's kind of like the closest he would ever deign to get to an apology. This is the closest he's going to get to saying anything to Dunk about, like, what his own kid did wrong. I'm sending him away. He's going to think about what he did. This is the closest that he's going to get to an apology. A move you could have made, I don't know, when he rampaged through a puppet tent. Smashing walnuts. Before any of this started. Did you see in the behind the scenes that Sam Sproul and Finn Bennett were in that walnut smashing scene? Sam Sproul's like, he has an allergy, you know? Like Finn Bennett has a nut allergy, and then Finn Bennett's like, I just really wanted the job. I mean, I hope that's true. I don't know if that was a joke, but I thought it was really funny. Print the legend, if not. Make our broach to Spaylor. some men will say I'm meant to kill my brother the gods know it is a lie but I will hear the whispers till the day I die and Dunk takes his new share of the blame for this says it was for me that Baylor died makes no effort to disabuse him of this notion and says yeah you're going to hear the whispers too now there's obviously the no man is as a curse as the kinslayer element of this with the Targs and anyone in the realm brother killing a brother this is a scandalous thing I love the line in the novella when Dunk thinks to himself perhaps he should have hated Makar, but instead he felt a queer sympathy for the man. This link between them. That's what I was thinking about that Dunk-Red exchange. That idea of, to go back to that Dunk and Egg scene in the prison cell, when Dunk thinks in the book he knew what it was to tell a monstrous lie, right? So here's Red telling her monstrous lie of like, I'm pregnant from a one-night stand. I'm like, it's a boy. You know, like, but to get what she wants, which is security, upward mobility, which is what Duncan wanted was upward mobility, you know. And so those moments of sympathy, the sympathy with Red and then the sympathy here with Makar. Like, he's an empathetic person. Hugely so. Yeah. Hugely so. I love that. I love her of animals. Quietly, one of my favorite moments of the season was still the little, like, pet in the goat's head. Young Duncan. This guy loves an animal. Yeah. I like this thinking about the empathy and the empathy born out of an unlikely tie and the ability to even have perspective with somebody else that, like, you wouldn't think you'd be able to have. You know, we've talked a lot with Egg and Dunk about chance meetings. But, like, this is another chance entwinement, the fact that Makar and Dunk are now tied in the annals of Westerosi history and their own emotional experience. Obviously, it's different for both of them. But, like, this is the thing that they share. And especially because, you know, over the course of these scenes and conversations, Makar, even though he is very warm in certain points, like the Arlen, invoking Arlen, like you mentioned, there are other moments where he's, you know, diminishing Dunk as a hedge knight yet again, right? But he's, that actually makes this even richer to me because it's like he's acknowledging, yeah, they're going to whisper about you too. We are a part of this thing together. You, a person who live a life that, like, when we met Makar and Balor in episode two, it's like, how do you remember some hedge knight who, like, you know, chanced on the horse? You want to take my son where? Yeah. To eat a what? Yeah. And so he's got to be bound now to a person who he would have been inclined to really, like, belittle and dismiss. It's just a fascinating thing. The idea that he doesn't know which blow was the fatal one, we talked about this a lot last week. it wasn't really a part of the finale, but it is a part of their conversation in the book, and we've always really loved it. Strange to say, Makar says in the book, I do not recall the blow that broke his skull. Is that a mercy or a curse? Some of both, I think. I just always thought that was a great insight into his state of mind and emotional state. I love that, and I love the show edition of showing Makar in that moment, the moment that we think it happened, being so desperate to get to Arian, saying, my boy, my boy. So this idea that he, you know, he wasn't, he didn't have all his wits about him, and he's literally flailing around. Right. And so the fact that Baylor was collateral damage, there's, like, you know, a better reason for that than even the book gives us. Totally, because there is an element of, yeah, there is, like, a part of it that's, like, okay, well, you're swinging a metal, like, a steel mace at somebody's head. Like, what? Something bad could happen. You know, something bad could happen. And there's a little bit of the Jorah, there's a beast in every man, and it stirs when you put a sword in his hand, to just the fact that to some extent when you're in that armor and you have that tool of war in your hand, like what did you mean or not mean to do consciously? It's like something comes over you that leads to that possibility. But I agree seeing those humanizing elements of like even his hideous, horrible kid. Like he's a dad who wants to protect his son, And I think especially given what we see between him and Egg in the finale, that's even richer now in hindsight. And it already was rich at the time. What did you make of how he spoke about Baelor kind of, like, looming as a presence even in death? The fools will say Baelor will not have let it happen, but the Hedge Knight killed him when talking about how the king is old. And this idea that, like, Baelor always could have done a better job will just be the currency, the lingual franca of the realm moving forward. It's almost like a dragon with, like, wings so large it casts his shadow across all of the meadow. Darren the Drunken, Darren the Dreamer with us always. I love this. I love that he is, like, so upset about what happened in his role in it, but also is like, I'm still diminished. Yeah, and everyone else is the steam of my brother. Even though we've heard that not everybody feels that way about Balor. Very, very, very rich. Duncan's like, did I make the right choice? How can a foot be worth a prince's life? This is like one of the most, one of the stickiest ideas that comes out of the hedge night is the foot of Sir Duncan for the life of Balear Breakspear. And this is, for folks who did not study English literature, this is like a synecdoche, right, idea, this figurative language concept that Shakespeare was fond of, but many people are fond of, where you take a part to mean the whole, right? Yeah. And so the friends, Romans, countrymen, let me your ears, you know, like just like and I think it is it is especially potent idea when you use like one part of the body. Like a more modern language language example that people like to use is like when you say I got a new set of wheels to me and I got a car. right so like the the part means the whole and um it's such an interesting way to talk about a thing the foot of you know when Dunk talks about like may have that foot you know might have something to do he's not you know we've made some jokes in the spoiler section about what his literal foot could literally do and we'll stand by those things we've been having a blast in the spoiler section um but that's not what's meant here right you know what what is my life compared to his compared to his yeah but the foot stands in for the whole and i just i just love that little bit of uh that's beautiful figurative language from george i love that and and now in the outcome and in the wake of this but also even in the initial choices like did dunk really care about the foot and the hand and the teeth like we talked about the jamie lannister like i was that hand equivalent and There is a literal aspect of, like, well, I'm a hedge, right, what would I do? But it's what that represented about the punishment and the sacrifice that I have to incur when I did the right thing. Yeah. And so to trace that beautiful theme across the inciting incidents and events and now through the legacy of this moment and what you carry from it. And, like, you know, we talked about this a little bit on Talk to the Thrones, but I love, especially because this is where Dunk invokes Arlen and the idea of the morrow. like thinking about how characters respond to something that is that big and existential. What is the measure of my value compared to somebody like this? What are you going to make it? You know, how are you going to keep doing this? Because Dunk is already impacting people and doing the right thing and saving lives. And now he can decide to continue to, or he could wilt and say, I don't deserve it. Or he could be angry. It's a choice he gets to make. So he says I'm done with princes, right? Yes. Which is a show line that's not in the books and one that eavesdropping egg is real bummed to hear, right? Yeah. But this idea of like, okay, what is my life? What is my foot? What is my whatever compared to the life of a prince? Right. But then, you know, as you mentioned earlier, over the course of this episode, deciding what I can offer is better than what any prince can offer. Yeah. you're offering all of the riches and you know resources of Summerhall you want me to come to Balmoral Castle you know what I mean hunt your son or whatever but like I have value I have value greater than that that's an incredible thing to watch a character like Dunk who starts if you read the novella his constant interior monologue is like self-hatred, right? Dunk the lung, sick as a castle wall. Slows the bricks. I'm so dumb. How did I get myself in this position? Why would anyone ever think I could do this? To being like, I can do this. I can help this kid. And I'm better than the Targaryens. The way I can do it is by getting them away from you. That realization will play out over a couple scenes here when make our first makes the offer it's to take egg as squire at summer hall right before we get to the summer hall part though here's what he says of egg my youngest son seems to have grown fond of you sir it is time he was a squire but he tells me he will serve no knight but you Given the choice that Egg is going to make at the end worth spending a second on this, obviously just the beauty of Egg's affection for Donk, the depth of this bond forged so quickly, which is part of what's going to be shattering for Egg as he eavesdrops and hears what he hears. But Egg pushing for what he wants. Egg, it's the privilege of a prince, certainly, undeniably, right? But there is something – we're going to talk a lot about the choice that Egg makes at the end and the, like, ramifications of that and the implications of it. But here, this, like, this is admirable to, like, stand up to his father and say, like, I'm going to – I'm only going to do it with this guy. This is the guy I want to do it for. And I've learned something about myself, too. I could be happy, and I think I could be quite happy at a place like this. Like, I'm going to be willing to do something that's unpopular or uncommon. It's the same spirit that led him to dunk in the first place. And so I just love that little, like, idea that he told his dad he was just what he wanted. It's the same spirit that has Raymond Fosthaway, like, you know, stepping up in front of some Targaryen guards and being like, you got to go through me if you want to get to Dunk, you know? You love and loyalty that Dunk inspires in the people around him. It's beautiful. Genuinely. He's an unruly boy, as you will have noticed. He's a good lad, Dunk says. Just needs a stern hand, that's all. And then Makar kind of, like, moves toward Dunk and leans into him and says, the voice kind of cracking, the delivery of this really just shattered me. Will you have him? And this desire that Makar has to do right by one kid. By one kid. And again, the same guy who scoffed at his brother even remembering a hedge knight, now asking a hedge knight. That's all on Makar's terms. But still, to be the one to mentor and teach and guide his kid. I think some context is helpful here. And then again, thinking about make our strong reaction to the idea of sending Egg away is, you know, his wife died. And so he was a grieving father for much of these boys' childhood, right? Yes. So. Right. In the way. Dead mom, not a lie from Egg. Right. And so, like, how much was he able to show up for these kids as he's, like, mourning the loss of his wife? Okay. So there's that. And then also, in terms of Eamon being at the Citadel, that was not his choice. He did not want that to happen. So we already had, like, one son taken, like, his one non-psychotic son. Darren's not a psycho, but Arian is. But, like, Aemon was, like, bookish and whatever, but Daeron sent him away because he's, like, there's too many Targaryen heirs running around the place. We've got to thin the herd. We've seen how that goes. Yeah, so let's send this one off to the Citadel and make her. He's, like, not my kid. Please don't. And then he loses him anyway. So to, to, when he says, I mean, this is later, but when he's, like, it's my last son. Oh, my God. Shattered me. Right? Yeah. Because I already fucked it with Arianne and Daeron. There's really no fixing that. they took Eamon from me you want to take egg from me then what do I have and you're doing it by telling me that you have to because the very prospect of him being with me the way these other boys were being inside our family is what will doom him am I the drama yeah I was interested in how I can't remember if it was on the inside the episode or the official pod but how Ira framed this pitch from Makar, obviously there's a lot of earnest emotion and just heartfelt aspects of what he's saying here, but that it's also like, you embarrassed me and you beat me and now I'm going to make you come to my home and like put you under my foot. I thought that was interesting as an additional element to consider here of like regaining control, seeking to regain control, which obviously he will not, but another element there. And, you know, we talked about this a little bit with the Lionel Offer earlier, but this one even more so because we literally heard Duncan Egg talk about this in this season. The dragon, like, you think the dragon house is hiring? This is the dream. This is the thing that he wanted. I could be more than a hedge knight. We've talked about that line so many times this season, the position above the salt, to be offered the exact thing. There's a passage we were, I can't remember if we talked about this in, I guess we must have talked about it in the spoiler section at the beginning of the season. And we were beside ourselves that the bugs around Dunk's elm were just actual flies, not dragonflies. Because this line, this line that, because this make our Dunks exchange is one scene in the book instead of split over two. The thing that Dunk thinks to himself is, what shall it be, Dunk, he asks himself. Dragonflies or dragons, a.k.a. the life of a hedge knight out along the wild things on the road. The exact kind of hedges and mud that he said earlier to himself, like, do great nights? die by the side of the road by the dragonflies? Yes. They do. After showing us their huge dick. A few days, that's not part of the quote. It's just something we're saying here at the House of Art. Yeah, because George would have said their impressive pink mask. He usually reserves pink masks for the tiny little bobbing ones. A few days ago, he would have answered at once. It was all he had ever dreamed. But now that the prospect was at hand, it frightened him. I love it. Frightened. Yeah. Frightened. It's scary. After everything that Dunk has been through, after all the things that he's braved. Yeah. And this idea of getting involved with this family, with these people, with spending more time around these things that are dream destroyers, right? knowing Arian and seeing what Arian was capable of in you know with the horse not to mention with Tenzel not to mention everything else. Right. These things that just knowing more of these nobles and more of these knights and then more just like makes the scales fall from his eyes. Yeah. But it's like if I go back on the road with the dragonflies then I can just live in this space with Sir Arlen where I understood what it what right wrong was. Right. And I can make that choice. I wouldn't have to just do what the Lord I had sworn my sword to, told me. Yeah, and it's like obviously a lot of it is Targ-centric, but just thinking of the moments where he's appealing to the Grandstand or all of the lords he went to to say, do you remember Sir Arlen? He took a wound in your service and you don't fucking remember who he is. The Brut of fucking Bracken? That guy ripped off a hell of a fart. Remember that? Yeah, I did. What a television show. Egg is listening through the doors, you noted. Should we do a fit check on Egg for a second here? We haven't talked about on this very podcast. The King of Hat? Who wore it better? Air Tau or Oh my god. Prince Egon. Thank you for being the one to first bring up industry today. Boy, that most recent industry episode was really something. That's what we say every week. Man, what a season of TV. I think I wore it better with respect to Eric. He's gone through a lot. He doesn't need me to pile on. Do you think that Mika had that hat made for the funeral? That's a great question. He's like, cover up that dumb shaved head of mirrors with his hat. Yeah, that's interesting. It's Egg, because obviously we get the very intense mirror scene when he's looking at his hair. So maybe he was like, I want to cover this up. Or maybe, yeah, Makar was like, enough of this silly shaved head. Yeah. Come on. Great question. Dunk asked Egg if he was listening and Egg lies. He says no. He was. He's a liar. Not the last lie he'll tell us. Little liar. I did just love the way they sit by this little window bench. and Dunks just says, I can't, Egg. I can't. I'm sorry. Right, with this, like, assumption that Egg, he knows that Egg is like, so he already knows that Egg knows, like, what they were talking about, and he just can't do it. And, like, yeah, maybe you're not the night I thought you were. Didn't say man, he said night. Had nine different meanings to it, you know? Tough. Egg. I think his despair is so palpable here and real, and. there's an element of this with like Egg I think obviously feeling very scared as we will see in this Aryan scene what it would mean to not get to go be with Dunk to have to go back to his family thinking too just about like I mean Egg's a very young kid right so how much of this is like active thought when you're 9 or 10 I don't know I think a lot is on your mind when you're at that age and Egg like made the choice on the one hand Their entire relationship is built on a lie. On the other hand, it's like he made the choice to reveal himself, to blow his cover, to stand up for Dunk. He sided with Dunk against his family in the trial of seven. And it feels like there's a part of this where he's just like, man, I kept choosing you. Time and time again, I chose you. If you don't choose me back. Choose me. Love me. What would happen? Where would that leave me if you don't choose me back? And it's like, well, we're about to see. We're about to get a very harrowing glimpse of it. And I think also because, you know, when we get that harrowing, I described it like a horror movie, like sort of glimpse in a little bit in the episode. It's like he's so horrified by his hair growing back and this like Targaryen-ness inside of him, this Aryan-ness inside of him. And like how you can't, he can't remove it from himself. It's in his very blood. It's in his follicles, you know. And is that, is what that is. I've had enough of princes, right? Like, is who he is so unlovable, so repulsive, that Dunk, who is so kind, and all these other things, won't choose him? And, man, I'm, whew, what a great question, because then there's also the element of, like, and will those thoughts and worries ever go away, even if he does? before we can go into the future, we've got to go into the past. Arlen's final words to dunk. I have some questions about this for you. Okay. Tell me. Is it about how Arlen ceased to have any eye movement for, like, four and a half minutes, but was still alive? Or, I'm not a doctor, so I don't know. I have some questions about, like, how real does this feel to you? Do I believe that Sir Arlen of Petitree, whilst dying of wounds, of an infection, told the story of the penny tree. Yeah. Yeah. Did Dunk sit there and ask him, like, really ask him, why did you never knight me? Or is this just something that, like, he's sort of asking his memory of Sir Arlen? I don't know that I have a clear answer. I'm just asking questions. I also thought it was, it really broke my heart when he's telling this story of, So these are his final moments. Yeah. Dying of this wound. The storm. We hear the rumble of the thunder. So the storm is coming. Yeah. Storm is coming. Right? Yeah. The horses are there. Have you heard this story before many times? Et cetera. Tell the story of the Penetra, which you can talk about in a second. Yes. When he says, when a Lord calls his banners and sends us, us boys off to war. That gave me real egg. I dreamed I was old. he's telling this story and he says us boys yeah yeah as if he was still a boy yeah in his final moments of life of life justness traveling back traveling back in time to his youth of uh you know we can talk about penetrating why they were constantly going to war but like yeah i love that that just like that that hurt my feelings yeah i was thinking a lot about aemon uh in that moment egg I dreamed I was old and the way in which your brain sort of becomes unstuck in time a bit maybe in your final moment yeah and then for Dunk you know to be sitting there and saying why did you never knight me I don't know I've seen a lot of people that I really admire the way that they talk about story talk about how they think this is a a fantasy I do wishes he had gotten to, like, actually pose that question. To actually ask that question. I don't mind that interpretation at all. I'm not convinced either way, but I don't mind. But I was more struck by, sends us boys off to war. Man, I love that. Jesus. The aim and tie is so good. I think, too, like, I invoked old Nan on Talk to Thrones and, you know, her quotes about stories. And A Game of Thrones, the first book, are some of my favorite ever. And I think that when you get a Throne's property invoking stories, it can go really wrong in a Tyrion series finale way or really right in, like, the old Nan way or other examples. But the thing that that makes me think of what you're just saying is the other, not the quote I read on top of Throne's, but the other one that I love so much, stories wait, my little lord. And when you come back to them, why there they are, which is, like, I'm like, I might get that tattooed. You know, I just love that so much. It's one of my favorite George lines and ideas. and, like, what you're describing about Unsuck in Time, the Slaughterhouse-Five quality of just, like, it makes me think of the end of this episode and the very deliberate choice. So there's, like, almost, like, a hallucinatory dream-like quality to seeing, like, this shade of Arlen and Sweetfoot traveling alongside Dunkin' Egg and then peeling off and this idea of a true knight always finishes the story. And it's, like, it's the tales of Dunkin' Egg now, but also, like, don't the great stories never end? Or we have the same tales still? That moment we got earlier in the season when Dunk on the tourney ground looks up and Sir Arlen looks down at him. Right? There are these moments across time throughout the season that I think are really, really interesting. I love that. Can we talk about Penitry for a second? Absolutely. So first of all, you and I both sort of just like looked up this idea of the Penitry. Because this is not from the text. No. This novella, nor when Penitry comes up in A Song of Ice and Fire, it's not described as part of the tradition there. Though there are pennies on the tree. But this is a traditional thing that you find, you know, not just in England and Ireland, etc., but kind of around the world. And did you look at some of the photos of these trees? They look incredible. Oftentimes, the photos that I saw, oftentimes the coins are sort of hammered in from the side. so then they look like and then they get then the copper sort of um what do you call it when it turns teal you know what i mean oh yeah yeah yeah yes there's a scientific word but i'm not a scientist anyway um i'm not a scientist um but then it looks like dragon scales like they look incredible these trees you should google them if you have not they look incredible yeah um but this idea of the penny tree which is a traditional sort of practice that they put into the text here and then the idea of penny tree as a location that is in the middle of the blackwood bracken fight is like contested territory always chill there yeah in in the we've seen it in house of the dragon it is it touches the blackfire rebellion like the right the blackwood bracken feud is a constant, and in the middle of that, out in the Riverlands, is Pennytree. So, you know, this idea of, like, we're always going to war, because there's always fighting around Pennytree. I love the specificity of that location, and how it connects to the history, the violent, consistently violent history of the realm, and that sin begets sin idea we love talking about in Hathi, the kind of inescapable nature of that perpetual violence and the people who were caught up and swept up in it. I also love to, like, thinking, I loved the way Arlen talked about this and, like, if you, if you can kind of, like, pair the physical specific thing that is real and does exist with almost the idea of, like, how fitting it feels for Arlen to talk about a concept as his home you know like not like uh even though it is an actual you could point to it on the map like i just loved it felt so fitting for this character who isn't like no famous name no famous house who has traveled across the land and been a participant in battle after battle and the idea that his home the representation of his home would be like just taking up your sword in defense of others and all of the other people who either because they had to or they wanted to at some point made that choice and i was it's like so chilling when he says you know that there's it's hard to find a spot like there's so many the number of boys the number of boys who were sent off to like fight maybe they cared about it but maybe it was someone else's war including roger and like yes i think that um that's so funny because when i was like making sure i understood the concept of synecdoche um there's this adjacent idea metonymy which is um the thing that stands in for the concept so when you say the crown but you mean like the royal family or whatever but you have an object that stands in for a larger concept so this idea of the penny tree standing in for like home or or you know defending that shire or whatever the case may be but this like image, this very evocative like lyrical image of the penny tree. It's gorgeous. And then for Dunk to choose to carry it on, like to, you know, this is obviously for later in the episode. I was a little sad because I kind of like, I know, the penny out of the floor. I wanted that penny still in the hilt and I'm curious like what's going to, I had a theory actually about what could replace it. Tell me. Do you know that there are sapphires in time? I mean, that would be fucking great. They have to put something in the, you know, in the hilt, right? Oh, man. Yeah, you got to put something in that pommel. It can't just be an empty penny hole. Maybe he'll just put another penny in it. Maybe he'll keep doing that. Like, I thought that it reminded me seeing him hammer the solitary, after he pulled it out, the solitary copper. It made me think, because I just recently watched this, the hammer nailing it at the boots in Train Dreams. Like, it brought that, and that's beautiful. Oh, my God. Like the kind of moss growing over them later. Can we not spend two hours talking about train dreams? I would love to. I thought that was one of the best movies of the year. That's such a dollar movie. Oh, God. I loved it. It was funny. I texted my dad right away, and I was like, you've got to. And he's like, I already seen it. Right? Like, girl, I see it. We're on it. In terms of the penny tree and whether or not, you know, we're going to go there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. George R. R. Martin has talked about two other novellas. Years ago. That he was, like, almost done with. Mm-hmm. What is called She-Wolves of Winterfell, right? So, at one point we're going, I mean, can't. Couldn't be more our shit. Can't wait for She-Wolves of Winterfell. So, like, at some point in theory, we're going to Winterfell. We're going north. Great. Can't wait. But the other one is called Village Hero, and it's set in the Riverlands. So, like, how can this not be about Dunk doing, like, a Seven Samurai thing in Penetrate or something like that? You know? He never said that, but, like, that has to be true. So, you know. We believe in you, George, despite your own adaptation. So I'm tweeting you. I heard that. True. Well, one of our listeners replied to me on Twitter. I hadn't been tweeting about that, but they sent a reply to me on Twitter about how, you know how George showed up in the AMC show Dark Winds? Mm-hmm. In a scene with Robert Redford, and they're playing chess, the great Robert Redford, right? They're playing chess, and there's a line in that scene where Robert Redford's character says, go on, make your next move, everybody's waiting. This very, like, we get it, you know, sort of moment that George, like, signed off on, was, like, okay with doing. Probably because if I'm, like, you're going to be in a scene with Robert Redford, I'm, like, make fun of me. Go ahead. Do whatever you will. Most of me. Go for it, Bob. But, like, if that line was in there. It's with a loving approval and a wink from George. Yeah. I agree. I told you years ago when we were at the, I think it was the first Game of Thrones convention we went to, they had this, like, plushy George R. R. Martin doll that had, like, you squeeze his hand and he says different phrases, like, follow Margulis or, like, whatever. And one of the phrases, and, like, Dave and Neil and I got extremely high and, like, spent, I think, an hour crying laughing over this. One of the phrases was George just going, I'm working on it, was, like, part of the plushie doll. So, like, he recorded that. They put it in a doll. You have to cycle through all of them to, like, get back to I'm working on it. So we just, like, spent an hour cycling it all until we could just hear George go, I'm working on it. So, like, he's obviously aware. I think he has, he is both tormented by it and has a good enough sense of humor about it. I agree. So, you know. I think the way that he was speaking about it recently in particular, I really admire it. I would just, it would be very easy to, like, just want to go hide, which would be tragic. You shouldn't feel that way. This is his, we're getting all of these things because of what was in George's mind. Like, that's incredible, and he should get to celebrate it. It would be really, really cool if we got a couple more novellas, though. Chiefs of Winterfell sounds like it's almost done. That is amazing. I mean, Dunk is, listen, have you heard the story before many times? Dunk is part of the storytelling tradition now, so, like, we got what's, you know, we got to know. We got to know what happens. I think that's clear. On the, is it confirmation or is it not, did it really even happen or not from with the knighting, let's take a look at exactly how Dunk or Dunk's internal projection of himself asks Arlen this question. Why did you never knight me? Did you think I'd leave you? I wouldn't have. It was something else. Sir. Sir. I got so emotional seeing this for a million different reasons, but one is, like, we cut from Dunkin' Egg, Dunk's battered face and his broken heart and all of these things to, like, he's going through it in this scene, obviously, but it's just, like, a much younger, more innocent, you know, just the beginning of the seasons ago. He's about to have some really bad diarrhea, but other than that. But his face is all, like, unbroken. He doesn't have the scars that he will, like, soon receive. That's right. And his, like, heart and his soul and all these things are still intact. So it's very sad. And to go from the despair that Egg is feeling, like, the sense of being let down but also lonely to then dunk in this moment of loneliness is very powerful, too. if this is real, but even if it isn't. You know, something we talked about earlier in the season is, like, you posed the question, maybe a mid-season mark, of, like, why do we think Arlen? And I was wondering if, given now what we've seen across this season, I mean, we knew about Roger from the text, but, you know, getting to see, like, Arlen sleeping at night by Roger's freshly dug gravesite and stuff like that, like, do you think that the – But also talking about boys going off to war. Yeah. Like, the proximity of this to a story about boys coming off to war and never coming back and their pennies staying on the tree because they died. Yeah. Like, is he just afraid of Dunk dying? Yeah. Or just never wanting to put him in a more dangerous position than following around an old man on the road and eating salt beef and laughing in the rain or whatever. You know? Like, this is a better life for him than – it's not just, like, than the life of a hedge knight, but, like, the dangers of being – being a knight in the first place. Yeah. I choose to believe. Yes. End of Stranger Things. I choose to believe. I choose to believe that if indeed Arlen never knighted him, which, yeah, he definitely didn't, it was out of some sort of misguided idea of protection. I agree. That's where I am on it, too. And obviously, like, you know, we've talked a lot over the season about the idea of does it matter? And it matters to dunk, and that's important, and I want to acknowledge that. But, like, certainly, as interesting as it's ever been after what we've watched Dunk go through at Ashford Meadow to think about how a character we so associate with virtue and honor, like what it means that he told this lie, and, you know, what it continues to mean, and all those knightings along the way, which have been so wonderful to track and will continue to be wonderful to track. And the thing that matters most is just how Dunk chooses to live the life of a knight and chooses to behave the way that the knight should. A knight who remembered his vows. A very important line. A very important line and a sacred idea. Yeah, it's still unconfirmed. Puzzling. I was puzzled to confront that Ira line. I love the way I read one of the show. What Ira said. So this was, because we talked about this on Talk of Thrones. It's like, this was confirmed. They confirmed it. It's never been confirmed in the text. Here we go. We got Dunk asked in this question. It is confirmed because Arlen's about to kick the bucket. He's two seconds away from dying. He definitively did not night dunk. We have assumed that was true. all the evidence pointed to that here it is confirmed. On the official pod, Ira said it's still unconfirmed. It's possible that Dunk was knighted right after that moment that Sir Arlen grabbed a sword and did it. And it's possible that he died pretty immediately after it. You say two seconds from kicking the bucket, how many, like, in the name of the fathers can you get out in two seconds? You know? I mean, is he allowed to take the basically, like, I just lost consciousness for 90 seconds nap between each line of the nighting now. In the name of the warrior, I need a minute. It's like when the studio gets too hot and I'm like, guys, I need a minute. You know? How's the time going? Okay. It's okay. We're picking up, but it's okay. Can I read to you what it says next in my notes here? Please. In all caps, it says B-coffin, B-coffin, the fucking Kingsguard are here. B-coffin, B-coffin, B-coffin. I think you summed up the scene well. That's what it says in my notes. I highlighted in electric green. Listen, you are the queen bee on the bees very front. I am. I gotta side with you. I mean, the bee coffin is the most... Like, your coffin at your week being a giant honeycomb is one of the most incredible things I've ever seen. This is amazing. So much love and respect to Arian Targaryen, who thinks he's a dragon, and to Lionel Baratheon, who has de-antlered every antlered animal in the realm so that he could smear them across his tent and make a crutch out of one. It's not practical for the crutch. Remember how Arlen fell asleep drunk and stabbed himself? Lionel's going to do that with the crutch. Oh, an armpit stab? For sure. That sounds horrible. That's like an episode of The Pit. I stabbed myself with my antler crutch? Okay. I'll get back in. Who would you most want to be your doctor on The Pit? And I have a follow-up question for you. Mel? That was my answer. Pretty easy answer for me, honestly. I feel so close to you right now. That was my answer as well. I love this. If I say... Maybe with Huckleberry assisting? Sure. If I say the hot doctor on the pit. Yeah. I kind of think of all of them, but I... But you have to pick one. Well, I mean, Abbott back, shirtless, shared a number of text messages with Juliet Lippman about it. So that's powerful. But I would think, I just, I would think of Dr. Robbie first. You know, I love a bearded man. Okay. I love a bearded man. Who is the hot doctor on the pigs? It's like one of my new favorite, like, litmus tests. I mean, they're all hot. Yeah, but like, you have to pick one. If someone says, oh, you know, the hot doctor on the pigs. I'm going Dr. Robbie. What about you? Great. It's Dr. Ellis of the Night Shift fame. Oh, I mean, that's a great pick as well. That's my fantastic pick. I really respect trying to sneak in a nap. Yeah, I can do it. With the iMac? Yeah, that was great. Great touch. That was a great touch. Also, on the bee coffin front, it's a good way, it seems to me, to fend off grave robbers. Oh, sure. It's just occurring to me in real time. There's a practical, like, security element to it. But, like, I do have questions about, like, where we're putting this coffin. Yeah, what do you think? Does this just stay here forever? Like, before we bury it, we should remove the queen. Do they bury it? What if they keep, like, a, like, a, maybe there's, like, a honey hole, mausoleum kind of giant, yeah, all the dead assembled. Would you need the honey made from the dead body of Humphrey Beesley? I'm not calling for this. This is all, you're trying to get me still since the early Yellow Jackets days to say that I would engage in a cannibalistic act, and I, unlike you, am just going to stick with, I simply would not need a piece of a friend. At least not in that way. I just don't think that, like, honey made in close proximity to the body of your good friend Humphrey Beesbury's name is eating. You're right, ultimately, because it's just like fertilizer, right? The dead are in the ground, and then they fertilize, they give us plants, trees that we can make tables from. I want to be buried in one of those mushroom suits. Do you? Even after watching The Last of Us. Yeah. Yearning tendrils. Forever. I don't know what I want. Because then you're like, if you get buried in a mushroom suit or whatever it is. I don't know if I want to be buried. Yeah, I mean, you can be burned, but that's all. like being buried in burn me with a dragon though not one of these sad little torches puppet dragon that's fine okay we'll get the puppet dragon and the pollen for your funeral but for me that could be your second text Adam is Mal chill if we build a Lego together and then do we have your agreement burial by dragon puppet flame so you want to be buried with a mushroom I'll present this video as evidence that it was your fondest wish to be buried with by burned by a puppet dragon Um, because if you put your, if you put your, all of your nutrients. Yeah. Back into the soil with the mushroom suit, you're like feeding the earth. I think that's lovely. If you're a little jar of ashes, you're not doing anything for anyone except creating some like carbon emissions that hurt the environment. Mmm. They've got all sorts of new eco-friendly tech. Do they? Yeah. It involves water. This is true. This is true. Great. I don't know if they do it for people. I've not, I've not looked into it. Okay. Okay. fucking bee magic this was one of the lines of the season my poor sweet warrior all that funny things turn your brains to apples off this is so funny this absolute babe knows how to fit in and she's like I know what the weight of your heart it's an apple pun absolutely incredible really a quick study tell me Yeah, unless it eats shit, Sarah. I don't want to be buried in a bee coffin. Okay. But, yeah. Do you ever watch the Eddie Izzard stand-up, Dressed to Kill? No. Okay. One of the funniest things that's ever existed. Are bees involved? He's got this whole joke about, I don't know, I can't remember the setup, but anyway. About being covered in bees. Uh-huh. And he's like, I like my women, I like my coffee. Covered in bees! Anyway, Covered in Bees was my first screen name. Oh. And I got hired on a website when I wrote under Covered in Bees. I got hired out of the comments section. So Covered in Bees is like my origin story. Have you and Katie Baker ever bonded over this? Over Eddie Isher? No, over like your life as an influential internet figure connecting to message board pseudonyms and, you know, blogging and comments and a shared tie. Was Katie Baker plucked out of the comments as well? Yeah. Cool. Yeah. She's a legend. Great. Anyway, what was your first green name? I don't want to say in case there's a digital record out there still. I'll tell you privately, though. Okay. I'll never tell anyone. Darren. Yeah. Doug hears the banging of the vessel, the beverage vessel, with Darren asking for, I believe it's a tankard. The tankard, thank you. Thank you. Some booze. And as we noted, new hairstyle. Dressed to impress. Some fresh stitching and bruising and scars. One of his eyes looks, you know, like a horse kicked him in the head. Which it did. Stepped on his foot. Did you see the prosthetic of his ear? That was wild. Yeah. It didn't look that. In the finished product, it didn't look that like. But it is like, he's got a third of his ear left, I would say. Wild stuff. Wild stuff. we already talked about the exchange between Darren and Dunk in terms of the having no shame coming here part. But let's hit what he says about Egg because Dunk is going to walk away. And then Darren stops him. He brings up this idea of egg squiring. Are you going to take him to squire? And then he brings up Arian. And he says, you know, my brother wasn't always such a little monster. Dunk thinks that he's talking about Egg. He says, Egg is no monster. He's just a boy. And then Darren says, and we've been loving the Darren scenes all season. This performance right here I thought was exquisite. I'm telling you, it's actor rules. I didn't mean egg, but no doubt will make a man of him too. Perhaps the seas of madness are thrown in the womb, as the maesters say, but Aryan was quite the glad child once. He liked fishing. It was giving chills. The thing I want to say about Henry Ashton, who plays Darren Targaryen, is that when, in My Lady Jane, he plays like a hot dummy. so to go from bling like a like a medieval himbo yeah incredible to this is just it it makes me so excited to see like what more is in store from him i believe if i'm remembering correctly possible this is apocryphal but i believe i saw peter clafy instagram story from a few days ago that said make henry ashton james bond oh jacob alorty's like i'll fight him i'll step on him I'm going to come in his three quarters of an ear. No, Jacob Elordi's too busy getting kisses and reading books on a beach. And one of the great quotes of our time. I stand with Dobbins on this. I'm team Dobbob on this. It's one of the great inspiring quotes of our time. Truly. I thought you were going to say he's too busy hoisting women up by their courses, but I don't think he's seen Wuthering Heights yet. I've not seen Wuthering Heights yet. Should I go? I haven't seen it either. We should go. I mean, it seems like it's one of the great cinematic events of our time. You know what I love? A movie that inspires discussion and debate and hoisting. This was an incredible, incredible idea. And it's going to take us into this Agarian moment. So the idea of this Arian-shaped harbinger here for Ag. And the, like, inevitability. You know, we love the God slip a coin idea that we've talked about across Thrones stories over the years. And it's like, maybe it's luck or fate or chance, which side your coin comes down on. And maybe as this episode is really hammering, it's nurture. Maybe it's as much the nurture as the nature. We have this incredible email from our listener, Lauren, about this, about the way the Targs are presented in general this season. Lauren wrote, the way in which the show is deconstructing or challenging nearly every way the Targs are or have been seen as otherworldly or exceptional. The dragons are gone. The Targs are shown entering and leaving on horseback or an egg's case lamb cart. Just like any other, Darin is a dreamer, but we're also shown a lowly fortune teller with the same ability, demonstrating this is not an ability restricted or inherent to the Targs. Even the famous gods flip a coin mantra of the Targs is questioned by Darin when recounting that Arian was a good kid, implying his current fanaticism is a result not of some inherent mystical Targ madness ordained by the gods, but a lifetime of being told he and his family were meant to be exceptional and the constant feeling of failure and isolation from humanity that has caused. I just love that because, again, we've been talking all season, what makes the Targaryen a Targaryen? This idea of just, like, they're on horses just like everyone else. The fortune teller bit was, like, really, I had not thought of that as, like, a... Could be a dragon seed. I'm kidding. Sure. But this nature versus nurture idea with egg is incredibly good. Yeah. sarah dina smith excellent director of three episodes this season set on inside the episode had it not been for meeting donkey egg probably would have gone on to be a corrupted targaryen so it's such a moment of relief when he goes with dunk and this is something that you were talking about beautifully and quite emotionally on on talk of thrones this there before the grace um sort of idea i do want to talk about it a little bit more in the spoiler section but i But I have always felt that way about this story. Yes. That in reading it, in the printed version that we've gotten from George R.R. Martin, this idea of, like, Dunk saving Egg from becoming his brothers has always been a really, really potent part of it. Yeah, I love it. I'm excited to hit it again in the spoiler section. I think here we can, you know, I love the scene we're about to get to, which is one of the rare non-Dunk point of view scenes in the season when we see Egg and this knife and Arian and Makar, allowing us to glimpse something here that even Dunk does not see really heightens this clarity about how close Egg is to this. And it's a reminder and a reinforcement of what the life with Dunk can fend off the other aspects that can be injected into Egg's perspective and experience, the people he could be around, the things he could do. Let him live in that. I could be quite happy in a place like this. But it's also interesting to think about, like, well, Dunk's not in that room. Makar just moving in his chair. What if he hadn't been there? It's just, like, it's a harrowing thing on the heels of feeling the rejection of Dunk to see so quickly, like, where Egg was inclined to go. Because we cut right from the, you liked fishing, you know, Darren describing young Aryan the way that we think of Egg. He liked fishing, glad child, to this rotting, it's not just the knife and the fish, it's like there are flies everywhere, this tableau of decay and rot. Decay and rot, but also, like, a dejected boy who has, like, not eaten his supper, even though we know he loves to eat fish. And just sitting there and his little feet don't reach the floor. He's just like sitting on his bed and he looks so small and so sad. With his little hat. The fish, the rotted fish, the knife and the fish, and then the knife is gone from the fish. Like all of that is really like great visual storytelling. But like what it tells us about his like state of mind and his isolation here is also really good. I love that. Has the tummy aches because he's stressed. Relatable content, man. Me before every pot. Truly. Truly. We talked about this moment when Egg looks in the mirror and sees his hair growing in, and there's like a shudder, like a convulsion of terror that this Targaryen, undeniable Targaryen aspect of him, you know, we heard him say, I cut it off, brother, I didn't want to look like you in episode three, and it's like, here it is. It's always going to grow back. It's always going to grow back. Like you said earlier, I love you, the way you put it. Like, you can't get rid of the follicles. Like, it's a part of who you are. You can decide that you want to be someone else, but there are always going to be these reminders of this thing that's inside, which is, I think, the way that the thing you feel from Egg here so clearly is terror. Yeah. Terror about this thing inside of him, like, kind of lying in wait. It was just really chilling. And as you noted, the musical accompaniment here was astonishing. But, like, this is why it's interesting that Velar has brown hair with one streak in it or that Darren has dirty blonde hair. You know what I mean? It's like, this is Aryan's hair color that's coming in on it. Yeah. Egg has the pure shit. You read this passage on Talk to Thrones. It's a great one. When Dunk is looking at the spot on Valar's head and then he thinks of Egg and, like, he's kind of making his version of that connection. Valar's hair was brown, but a bright streak of silver gold ran through it. The sight of it reminded Dunk of Arian. But he knew that was not fair. Egg's hair was growing back as bright as his brother's and Egg was a decent enough lad for a prince. I love this idea that like for Dunk Egg's hair could be a reminder that not every Targaryen has to be bad oh you might have the silver hair and you're a Targaryen but like you could be my dude you could be my bestie and for Egg it's like I'm afraid of who I am but I was told by the sharpest political mind of our age that the only good dragon is a dead dragon so I don't know how to reconcile those two concepts sharpest political when you say sharpest you mean because everything that he carries has an antler tip on it So he stabbed him into his armpit. What did it do to you to see Egg walk toward Arian with a knife in his hand? I mean, so connecting that to the story that Egg told about the way in which he was tormented by Arian, that Arian would come into his bed at night with a knife and talk about cutting off his genitals and making him his sister and stuff like that so that he could marry him. Like, this is just, like, horrific shit from Arian. And so to watch him walk in there, and there's a part, you know, we've seen plenty of people murder on thrones that, you know, like, we watch Tyrion murder Shae, you know, like, we watch characters we care about and are invested in murder inside of Game of Thrones. But, like, you're always, at least for me, Aryan deserves to die. Like, I think he definitely deserves to die. I don't want this for Egg. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don't want Egg to have done this. Not just because no one is as accursed as a Kinslayer. Have you heard that no one is as accursed as a Kinslayer? I have heard this. Everyone's saying it. But just sort of like, you know, if you think about little Egg at the tourney being like, it's disgusting, so big. You know, like, it's like, ooh. Like, it's little, like, little boy-ness that we've seen all season. And then, you know, little Targaryens do vicious things all the time. But, like, not Egg, man. Yeah, well, like, to have that, like, that evil act seep into your soul in that way, like, if Egg had done it, whether it was to threaten him and kind of an eye for an eye, this is what you did to me, or actually to kill him, I would, like, almost on reflex expect Obi-Wan to be edited into the episode and, like, literally say, you have become the very thing you swore to destroy. Like, the idea that he despises Arian so much, not only for how he's treated him, but now in addition to that, he blames Arian for maybe having cost him dunk, like, I'm done with princes. The taint of Arian as a blockade to, like, the one path that Egg sees for himself to a different kind of life, the resentment that he would feel. And then in trying to rid himself of that he would become that person that he would travel down that same road of like allowing that evil into his heart it would just be so so so so tragic for like a little nine to do that and for anyone but yeah Saying like kill me you become me B Exactly. And that's exactly how I would have said it too. That's how Obi-Wan would say it if you were edited in. Perfect. Make our, let's make our moment with Egg. This was exquisite. Just the like, again, there's no, there's no dialogue in this scene, similar to like a lot of other great moments this season. And it's just, like, body language, right? And it's Dax, who's just, like, been incredible all season, but the tears on little Egg's face. You know, Sam Sproul's performance in this episode is exquisite. So his just sort of, like, just shifting in the dark and then just sort of, like, registering what's going on with his son and putting his hands on his shoulders and watching. For me, it was a way in which Egg just, like, sinks back into him, sags, you know, drops the knife, sags back. We got an email from our listener, Herschel, who said, The way Egg sinks into him is something I've seen time and time again with my boys. A relinquishment of anger because you know you're safe, which Egg clearly feels safe with his father. I don't know that I wholly agree with, like, the very last part because, you know, Egg, I believe there's truth in Egg earlier this season when he told Dunk, I don't really know my father. Yeah. And also when he told Thunder, he's mean to horses. Right. I don't know that, like, Egg feels, like, super safe with Maker in general. but I think in this moment he's like here's someone in the room who's here to stop me from doing the worst thing that I could do and that's a relief to me that someone was here to stop me from this because I don't know that I could have stopped myself yeah and the like the gratitude for acceptance in that moment too you know he's not chastising him could have been a teachable moment I will say not to shift the vibe but it could have been a teachable but the fact that he like because he is feeling like okay i want to go with donkey doesn't want me to and to be able to sink into his father like that it makes me think of it connects to what you were saying earlier with bakar and his wife and egg's mom and like how present was he for his kids and like we can deduce not very based on what we've heard egg say but also something like hearing earlier in the season and in the novella like you know when raymond is the voice of this idea that arian wouldn't have done this thing with Humphrey Harding than he did if Macar had been there, like, that his children operate in fear around him, you know, and so you think, like, I found myself thinking, footwhips, he footwhips. Right, exactly, like, is this the first moment that Egg has felt tenderness from his father? Possibly. You know? And, like, what a sad thing, but also, like, the gift of realizing that that might be available to him, finally, like, maybe it is a moment where Macar has decided to change because he doesn't want to lose egg the way that he has lost these other boys i mean this takes us into this other scene but like this is why the the adaptive change they decided to make that egg is lying when he says my father said i could go right which according to ira came from like a joke that they started in like a group text and then just became like the button for the season and it's funny and Like, I'm not, I'm not, it's fine. I'm not like mad. I want to see how it all plays out. I have some questions, as you know. But it's a bummer to me because, like, I think, you know, we got a great email about this. Yes, we did. I think the way in which, like, we got a number of emails about it. But, like, you know, the way in which, like, Dunk, of all people, who doesn't have the words, is able to convince Makar to change his mind is so hugely important. Yeah, I agree. So to just be like, JK, he never gave his permission. Yeah. And again, in the book, it's complicated because it's not like, there isn't like an explicity in the book where Makar says with his words in his mouth, you have my permission to go. But there are things that happen later in the other novellas that like. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want to get into, but. Yeah. This is an adaptive change. Yeah. For Makar to be like, for Egg to Lie. And I know I'm skipping ahead. No, no, no. We can edit here. but like i i think it's a problem that dunk doesn't get to convince make our that make our isn't so moved by what happened with his brother and and what is happening with arian and all this sort of stuff to change his mind that is like an important thing for make our to go through yeah and it is important like especially like how stern he is how dismissive he is to sort of have his mind changed and say like i will send my child with this hedge knight on the road a beautiful part this story. And then what it forces you to confront on the egg side of things is that egg, and we got several emails about this, is that egg is once again telling a lie that is putting Dunk in danger. Yeah. So he's learned nothing, like, nothing from the lie he told before. Yeah. We see him tell a lie inside this episode and he's like, no, I wasn't eavesdropping. That's like a more innocuous lie than like, yep, my Lord Father said I could go with you. Yeah. And now we're fugitives on the road. Yeah. That's tough, man. I do find it strange. I think that this finale was great. I think the season was incredible. I did bump on this. Like, we talked about it a little. I think everything you just said really, like, covers it well. I'm a little less fussed about the egg part of it, though. I am really compelled by it at that point. I think that it's, it feels true to Egg's character to me to continue maybe to make the same mistake. And, like, I think he's so young. Yeah, exactly. So I have more grace because he's so young. He's a child, but also he's, like, very smart and self-possessed for his age. He is. And, again, it's, like, it's not just a mistake. It's a mistake that imperils Dunk. Yeah. You know? And that's, I mean, I know I said this on Sunday, but I am just kind of mystified by the idea that, like, how exactly are they going to escape and fend off detection for what period of time? I don't want eggs but on a murder cloak. So everything's going to be fine. I think that what you're saying about Makar really resonates with me. And, like, I, again, I can talk myself into Makar being, that there is still, even though he has, like, made this offer and done this thing and said these things to Donk, and we'll talk about the second scene in a second, that he can't quite push himself to that final acknowledgement that the life at Summerhall would doom his own kid. I can talk myself into that. I'm ultimately with you, though, that, like, Dunk compelling him was always such a beautiful end note for the story. And then, like, because the passage in the text, which we can, since we're talking about this here, we can just hit here, is there's certainly enough room for ambiguity, but I think we've interpreted it a certain way. It's more like you're alluding to that at the top of Swarton's sword, there's just some, like, just seems very, I mean, maybe even that you could make work. But in Hedgeneid, the passage is, Make our Targaryen and Neca, Prince of Summerhall, regarded Dunk of Flea Bottom for a long time, his jaw working silently beneath his silvery beard. Finally, he turned and walked away, never speaking a word. Dunk heard him riding off with his men. When they were gone, there was no sound but the faint thromb of the dragonfly's wings as it skimmed across the water. The boy came the next morning. So is it possible inside of that? There's like an implication. Yeah. But there's room, as Ira Parker has said, like there's just like room for them to wiggle in a little change and surely approved by George because, you know, he's working very closely with George. He seems very invested in not taking George off. So like, yeah, but I don't know. I don't know that it's worth it for like what they, the reason the explanation they gave was we thought it was funny. Yeah. And it's, it is funny. Yeah. But funny at a cost of a, a big character development. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, he said on Inside the Episode, I already said on Inside the Episode, Macar said no, Egwin anyway, we'll deal with the repercussions of that down the line. I'm curious to see how. Right. We got a lot of emails from, like there's, you know, a lot of screenshots of Sam Sproul's hands going around being like, his thing that ring is missing, yada, yada, yada, which has to do with like future book stuff. But like, yeah. Ira Parker said it pretty cleanly where like in the version of the story they're telling, Makar said no, Egg went anyway. Fascinating. Fascinating. Dunk is like I'm going to give it one more shot before this eventual outcome. Darren's words have kind of resonated. He's thought back to this stretch with Arlen that either happened or didn't. And he's got a counter. You know, you never say yes or no just to the first offer. You get a counter. I want a spare egg from the state, right, is kind of the thrust of this. And he is going to have to say some things about his sons to a father. He has gotten to this moment of the full embrace of the life of a hedge knight, that it is better. I thought you were done with princes, Makar says. Egg is no prince. Not yet. Might be he's better served away from castles and servants and his family, Makar cuts in. And it's like, yes, exactly. Let's see the rest of this. Aegon is blood of the dragon. He cannot sleep in ditches and eat hard-salted beef. Daren never slept in a ditch. All the beef Arian ever ate was thick and rare and bloody. he's my lost son. Oh! So good. So good. Oh, my God. We've talked about this a lot already. Do you want to get into for a moment, and anybody who doesn't want to hear this could skip ahead, like, a couple, three or four presses, what Peter Claffey said on Inside the Episode about this? Which contains something that we have been begrudgingly and against our will compelled to not say all season long, that then it's just surreal, and they just tweeted it out. Yeah, they did do that. inside the episode. We're going to allow ourselves to talk about it here, but you can skip ahead if you don't want to. Skip ahead. This will be like a minute. Go ahead. Just wait until you hear us talking about Sweetfoot. Exactly. What did Peter Claffy say? Oh, what did Peter Claffy say? Peter Claffy said, to be annoyed. No, I'm not going to be asking. It's about being true to the principles that you live and set upon yourself, and it's solidified when he speaks to Darren, and Dunk realizes that there's a little kid that looks up to him, and now he has the opportunity to raise a future king. By the way, Sir Arlen taught him, because he's going to be well-rounded, knowledgeable, superior king of Westeros. Egg will be king, and Peter Clough, who just said it, and they left it inside the episode. Wild, wild stuff. Now, again, I think our belief shared is that the show could have been framed this way from the start, Egg on the Unlikely. This is the story. You're watching the story of Egg on the Unlikely. George also just said it in New York Times. George Dawn, so. I would have had no issue with this just being the framing of the story we were watching the whole way. I think it's pretty weird that they deliberately did not talk about this all season long, And that includes it in the last episode. Yeah. Pretty strange. I like what Ira said on the official pod. What drives him back to Egg ultimately is the idea that Egg's lot is not yet decided. Part of the reason we allowed ourselves to go into Egg's POV, while we don't ever tread in the POVs of the lords and ladies, kings, and queens, Egg's future is undecided. What he's going to be, he's still multiple clay. So, Dunk is feeling it too. and he's about to feel the sweet fur of a beautiful horse because Raymond has done one of the best things with any character. He's a fur for a horse. I don't know. Hair? Horse hair? Coat? Coat? Yeah. Horse hair. Horse hair. Yeah. It's beautiful, whatever it is. Wonderful. I really like the way that he was doing this. It was so sweet. Every now and then, even in a story that we love, there's an injustice. this. George forgot to give us an update on Sweetfoot. We just have had no idea. Dunk just traipses off without a backwards look for Sweetfoot, who we promised he would come buy back if he had the money to do so. You cannot make Dunk Mr. Animal Lover Horse Guy all season and then just not show us that Sweetfoot is okay. So thank the gods, Ira Parker, righted it wrong here, that Ira righted this wrong and Raymond came through yet again. He has bought Sweetfoot back for Dunk, but Dunk is like, she's not mine. It's a new phase. And so he sends her to New Barrel with Raymond, who immediately takes a huge bite of a green apple and feeds it to Sweetfoot, who did not seem thrilled. She loved it. She loved the apple. Our listener, Maddie, said, as to whether Sweetfoot would be better suited to a red or green apple, one thing you have to watch very closely with horses' diets is their sugar intake. Too much sugar too quickly or too high a sugar content in their food. with not enough forage can lead to serious problems. A granny-spit apple has considerably lower fructose and glucose than a Fuji or a Gala, or even a Pink Lady. I never mention Fuji or Gala. While you should only be giving high-sugar treats like apples occasionally, if Sweetfoot is indeed going to retire into the land of apples, it's probably better for her health long-term than it be with a fossilized green apple. I've never met a horse that prefers one apple over another. I'm sure they're out there, but I feel like Sweetfoot belongs on Team Green. Let me say this. dirty pool and this is foul that you've done this. Because what am I going to say to this? I'm not going to say give the animal, I love animals, but I'm not going to say give the animal unhealthy amounts of sugar. Come on! Frankly, how dare you? Most of the emails we got about this were like, please don't send a horse to an orchard. The horse will die. Is that true? Oh, no. Yeah, just because they should not be eating apples constantly. I thought you were going to say like uneven ground with roots and stuff. I don't know. I just want Sweetfoot to be okay. This word came up, but is it founder? Founder. I don't know what that means, but it's a bad thing if you're a horse and if they have too many apples, it's a problem. So don't let Sweetfoot free graze in the orchard. An occasional. Yeah. But I really think this is going to be Rowan's horse now. Yeah. Well, I think that we. Lady Rowan Fossaway definitely like Rowan. We need Lady Rowan of the Green Apple Fosceways to take care of people. This is just a question because this lady and this potential baby don't exist in the books. Do you think they're going to name the baby Duncan? I mean, that would be absolutely beautiful. I love when that happens. Here's what I want. I want every season someone to name their child Duncan. That would be great. It'll be like when Rachel and friends had a baby and named it Emma, and then there were just like a million baby Emmas because of it. Yeah. I was thinking about this. Is there going to be a real-world uptick in Duncan? Yeah. Or egg. Yeah. Probably Duncan. Remember the Khaleesi boom? Yeah, there's still people out there named Khaleesi. Yeah. Duncan's a great name, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Daenerys is fine. Khaleesi, really tough. What's your favorite Thrones name for real-world application? Like Tyrion? Saren? Daemon? But spelled in a Thrones way? I think Arya is a really good name. Oh, Arya is great. Yeah. I'm going to go with Nymeria. To all the Khaleesi's out there, I'm sorry your parents did that to you. I hope you go by Lisey. To the... Or Callie. To the Daeneryses. Yeah. Dany. Classic Dany. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If I ever have a kid, I'm going to name her Alice. With three fingers. I'll never be able to say burracked around her. No, I couldn't name a kid Alice. Let's try this kid's name. There's so many Alices lately in stories that I've read. There's a real Alice boom. That's just an observation from me. The Tales of Dunkin' Eck. Professor Liddell, not always welcome. But sometimes. Sorry, no, it was Alice Liddell. Dodgson. Charles Dodgson. Sometimes welcome. So, Duncan's hammered Arlen's penny into the tree, and he's talking to his horses as he is as his want. He's talking to Chester, talking to Thunder about where to go next. Raymond talked to Sweetfoot. Remember when Raymond's like, talking to your horses? It's mad. And then he did it. Weirdly waiting in the shadows and the rain by his elm. Yeah. Strange. But Duncan's talking to his horses again because he has no one to talk to. Yeah. Except here comes Egg. You know, on the horse, I love just getting to see the shield one more time. The shattered shield. that he's like, it's there, and it can be repaired, and it's still his. Like, I just, ugh, little details of love. Sir Duncan, my Lord Father says I am to serve you. Don't fact check it. It's fine. Don't worry about what it means or how it happened or how it will impact us in the future. That's for next year. Serve you, sir. Loved it. They're right back into the rhythm. That's straight out of the book. Yes. Of Knight and Squire. And they ride off, and Egg wonders where they're going to go, and Duncan says they could go anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms, and then Egg is right back into, you've got a lot of shit to learn man mode. Nine Kingdoms. Before he gets into the well, actually. Yeah. Dunk's like, we could go anywhere. Like, duh. He's about to say Dorne. Yeah. Like, duh. Yeah. And then Egg's like, I have an idea. We should go to Dorne. They've got puppets there. Yeah. And hot chicks who are not too tall for puppets. A number of things, including puppets. Crownlands, Westerlands, Stormlands, Riverlands, the Iron Islands, the North, the Reach, the Vale of Arran, and Dawn. Great response from Dunk. He's like, no, but what? As I mentioned on Hark of Thrones, I thought the actual flashing and updating of the word mark was not necessary, but I did enjoy this conversation. Thought that was cute. And they do settle on Dorne, and will we be treated to those adventures at some point? You think Dunk got to sheath the sword? What do you think? We have some information. Do you want me to share it? Let's do it. They have said they are going to Dorne in season two. How long they shall be there, because it's not in the book. Right. So, like, if that's just, like, if it's a flashback, like, we flashback to the time we went to Dorne. Or it's, like. Which would be more in keeping with him remembering the time. Just the beginning of episode one or something like that. I don't know. Love it. The score here, just gorgeous. Absolutely beautiful. And this is where they ride off. Arlen and Sweetfoot peel away. friend of the pod Aziz from History of Westeros likened this moment to one of our shared favorite movies Field of Dreams which I just rewatched recently when Ray Liotta and Jillis Joe peels off into the corn and then like he disappears with a camera like keeps following where he was walking which like I'm already crying and I'm getting all the like praise dad and catch and all that sort of stuff but like but yeah the following into the corn of like this ghost. I was just like, a lot of people also think this is a Fast and Furious reference. Why not both? Sure. Paul Walker, you were with us. The all time, why not both? Yeah. This was beautiful. I love the Tales of Duncan Egg. Last pages are for you, Sam Asprek, but even just the little subtle touch of the way that Dunk just gallops. She's not really galloping. Moves, trots. There we go. Just like slightly further over to the left after Arlen peels off. Like that's his position now. That's lovely. We already hit the stinger-esque Makar moment. That means it's time for the book spoilers. The look ahead. Yeah. If you don't want to hear it. One last thing I want to say about the Makar aspect. Yes. Our listener Abby wrote in to say in terms of Makar running around being like where the fuck is the egg? Right? Abby wrote it reminds me of the iconic Tywin intro with Jamie talking about Tyrion kidnapping. Jamie quote I didn't realize you play such a high value in my brother's life. Tywin quote he's a Lannister. Might be the lowest to the Lannisters, but he's one of us, and every day that he remains a prisoner, the less our name commands respect. If another house can seize one of our own and hold him captive with impunity, we are no longer a house to be feared. If Makar, so, end quote, so, Abby says, if Makar is yelling for the whole camp to hear that his son is missing, that means many people in other houses packing up are hearing that Targaryen is once again unaccounted for. Flop era. Also, part of why it didn't make sense. Just to be frank. Flop era. Flop a roo. All right. Book spoilers. If you don't want to hear about events from The Sworn Sword. The Mystery Night. Future canon events. Beyond the written novellas. Some season two info that I just put here just in case people don't want to hear it. We'll see you, I mean, hopefully next week for the mailbag, but certainly in June for Hot D season three. Tomorrow for that trailer breakdown. Thanks for spending a night of the Seven Kingdoms with us season one. We'll see you for season two. And like 500 pause in between. All right. Flash some sirens, dragon screeches. it is time for the book look ahead. Where should we begin? Okay, so on Dunk's, like, quote-unquote resurrection, sort of, like, in response to us being, like, this guy should not be alive, right? Our listener, Sam, who's the best, wrote an email saying, one of the hilarious running bits in these novellas is just how supremely fucked up Dunk gets by book's end. He passes out from his extensive wounds each time and is essentially, quote, saved by maesters. at risk of comparing this to somewhat shaky later seasons' Thrones plotline. I couldn't help but think of Beric Dondarrion miraculously being kept alive. Now, obviously, Thoros and Rolor, maybe, probably, had a little something to do with that nine lives thing, but I kept ruminating on this idea of a knight being kept alive for a reason, even if that reason is one small act of grace and erosism to play in the endgame, like Beric's keeping Arya alive just a little bit longer for her to fulfill her destiny. Perhaps Dunk's arc will play out similarly. Perhaps the gods give him strength through many trials and tribulations, only for his spared foot to punt a Rhaegar out of harm's way, down the road in 259 AC, or, to playfully quote Sandor Clegane, maybe it's just because he's a big fucker and tough to kill. I love it. Still one too many stab wounds to vital organs in the show. But I thought it was great. I thought it was great. Great email. Lionel. Lionel's words. Obviously, there is a little bit of in the immediate canon with the second Blackfire Rebellion coming in the third novella third season of this show. Just the, like, kind of tenor of where things stand in the realm. But more about Lionel's future rebellion. Both? Yeah. I mean, that's where my mind went was, like, we're setting up a future season where, you know, Daniel Ings is, like, I've read the wikis and I get to, like, come and fight Dunk eventually. And with that stepping on the foot dance, you know, that we highlighted in the spoiler section that week and stuff like that. that being said do you think they would involve Lionel Baratheon in like any sort of Blackfire business? I think this gets to a larger question that we sort of started to hit I mean I guess we talked about it a few times we started to hit it really last week with the email we got about whether we had any concerns about just like the story of Sworn Sword as the second season of the show and then we were talking a little bit about just how to kind of maybe incorporate more Blackfire history etc. Yeah Doran I'm really curious to see it feels like one of the things that has one of the things people love so much about the novellas and one of the things that worked so well about this season as an adaptation is that it really was focused and contained and so I think there is a little bit of risk if that kind of core organizing principle of like each of these stories each of these novellas, each of these seasons will be like they went to a place and a thing happened. It's a moment in time that is worth showing us. I would worry a little bit about diluting that by having other characters who maybe would have no reason to be at Sandfast or Whitewalls or wherever they go in the future, like, appear there or too many little stops they make along the way. That said, if they're in the reach, why not go visit Raymond and Rez? Like, it would be okay, I think. So, as is always the case, I think it's about execution and probably calibration. Are there ways to get Lionel into the story sooner without question? Is it totally clear to me how he would be interacting with them, given that the way that these novellas function is like, we went to this castle and did this one thing? I don't know. Maybe he decides to go to Winterfell. That would be great. See about the she-wolves of Winterfell there. How do you incorporate antlers into your winter wear? I can't wait to find out. Yeah. It's going to be great. I can't wait to find out. I did get more, like, we're on the show-verse front, like, setting near-term Blackfire Bells vibes from this. Not that Lionel, as a character, is in any way thinking about the Blackfire Rebellion, but more just priming us for the fact that, like, we're two years, two seasons away from an attempted. Yeah. Yeah, an attempted, very short-lived and badly botched, but an attempted play for the throne. Valar's heir is not going to be around to see it because he's about to die all of the memes that I think I sent you some of like strong words for someone who's unvaccinated or like whatever but yeah Valar is about to get the vid and he doesn't make it yeah great spring sickness is coming to claim the king Darion II Valar and his younger brother Materas and that's how we're going to get Ares Baylor's next youngest brother as king Makar will eventually be king but Not quite yet. We got to plow through a lot of Targaryens to get there. We do. Kira Tyrosh, who was at the funeral with her pink hair, I've been excited about that since we saw a promo photo of her, does go on to marry Daeron Targaryen. They've also been some incredible tweets about that, about a shot of Valar and a shot of Daeron from the finale and just people being like, Kira Tyrosh, your power. You know what I mean? I'm like, look at these two incredible hot Targaryens you landed. They do both look great. All of the, you know, whispers about Bloodraven and what did he do with his dark magic, obviously just like a through line of the canon. The whispers that Valar's heirs were killed in the womb by Bloodraven's magic. That's in the air as well. Aryan's stint in the Free City is solving everything, making him a better person, and everything will go great from here. that's not the case. That's not the case. He's about to father some bastards fighting the Second Sons in Lys. He will be back in Westeros in time for the third Blackfire Rebellion, though, in 219 AC, if they keep the general timeline of this in the show. He's going to be back in the mix in a future season, not that far into the future of the canon. And as we noted with the, you know, the great moment where CR was like, and done cut his dick off, he's going to have an actual, he's going to have an heir. He's going to father an heir. Who will be a claimant in the Great Council, kind of going head-to-head with Egg and not winning. The Make Our Business. We got another email. Oh, this is also from Sam. He's My Last Son is a touching beat and obviously in the novella he leaves without saying anything, so who knows what gets resolved in the intervening two years. But the power of that moment to me was always Dunk wielded the power to truly change Make Our's mind and shift his perspective. They're going to need to do a lot of legwork in season two with the ring to explain how they're not just still fugitives, especially in a post-spring sickness world where Egg bones from like 12 to 7. I sent you a tweet that suggested cutting the post-credits thing and restructuring the episode so that Dunk's second pitch to take him came after the knife beat with Arian, thereby Makar is softened by seeing the resentment grow and ultimately realizing Egg must grow up differently than his brothers. This is all fairly troubling, given that Sproul has confirmed he will not appear in season two. Yeah. I'm trying to be optimistic, but this is a tough one. I went in, like, fact-checked that, and Sam Sproul has indeed said that he's not in season two of this show. So there's not going to be a make-our scene or flashback in season two where we see him, like, catch up with them and, like, give them the ring. The signet ring. So, like, maybe Egg did steal the signet ring. Yeah. Like, for all of the people who are freeze-framing and zooming in on poor Sam Sproul's, like, hands to try to find the signet ring. Like, maybe he stole the signet ring, but that still doesn't mean that Mekar gave him his blessing. So these passages from Sworn Sword. What did your father tell you when he sent you off to Squire for me? To keep my hair shaved or dyed and tell no man my true name, the boy said with obvious reluctance. Could still be a lie, I guess. Could just be a lie. Yeah. That's sort of, I don't love that, but you could say Egg is just lying again. so far as most folks are concerned Aegon Targaryen went back to Summerhall with his brother Darren after the tourney at Ashford Meadow, Dunk reminded the boy your father did not want it known that you were wandering the Seven Kingdoms with some hedge knight so let's hear no more about your boot the boot being the signet ring that Aeg is always like we could always use the boot, we could show them my boot because he's hiding the ring that proves who he is in the boot I guess that Aeg could have stolen it like you're saying I don't know, why did they do this I'm puzzled by this. And I just have a lot of faith in Ira. Me too. So much in this season was done so well. But the, like, a knight who remembered his vows and this moment just feel like, you know, those butterflies that George is always worried about, you know? Oh, God. Yeah. Egg's future. Yeah. Peasant king. I forbid him to live as a peasant. We love the World of Ice and Fire quote we shared earlier this season elsewhere in the spoiler section. Egg is more than half a peasant. This idea that he's, like, the peasant king. is something that a lot of other lords will use against him, ultimately. Just as you and I are gearing up to talk about the House of the Dragon trailer, our listener Emily wrote in, basically, I'm paraphrasing, saying, like, should we be thinking about Darren, in that show, being raised away from his family? Like, with love and respect to Helena, who's doing her best, and Allison has not raised some great children, but Darren kind of rules, and Darren was not raised with his family. Yeah, I mean, I'm loathe to give the Hightowers. Any credit. Any credit, but Darren rules. Darren rules. Summer Hall. Yes. We also got a couple emails about that, right? Like, we got this great, this, I thought this was really funny, when Dunk says, are you mad to Egg? And Egg said, is that relevant? Like, that's funny, right? But, like, the prophecy thing, which is, like, which, you know, I kind of stumbled over trying to talk to you about this on Talk to Thrones. But, like, it really puts a sour note on this whole idea of, like, Dunk has saved Egg. If, like, what they're setting up is for Egg to, maybe not to send it a full madness, but to become so consumed by, you know, the pursuit of dragons, etc., that he doesn't wind up that much better than Arian and Daeron in the first place. So then it's not that Dunk saved him for a while then. Or Dunk, he did some great reforms for the people before he lost his marbles in pursuit of dragons or something like that. But, like, that prophecy, because we always knew that Egg dies at the tragedy of Summerhall and that there was something sort of tragic and ill-advised about where he landed. But this idea in that fortune teller's prophecy of, and everyone who knew you will rejoice, makes it seem like it's going to be much darker than I expected, which was kind of like a magical whoopsie. You know what I mean? And this is going to be much tougher and closer to Arian than we would want. And so Dunk saved Egg by getting him out of there. Well, did he, though? Or did he just prolong the inevitable? I mean, I guess that'll be the interesting story to watch. And I think there's a, you know, there's obviously we've talked about this for days and weeks and months of our lives when totaled up together in terms of what went wrong, not with the specific story choices with Dany, but the execution at the end of Thrones. And so much of this, I think, will come down to if it is presented as a tragedy and that Egg had opportunities to live a different way and it wasn't enough or he could for a while but not forever, that there was some inevitability, as Darren frames it, that was send it off but not ultimately stamped out. I think there's a way that that could be so harrowing and really tragic and beautiful and, like, painful. And, like, you know, I think what it would tell us about maybe our choices versus what feels like almost predetermined could be, like, almost a very, like, existential and philosophical thing. So I'm very open to it. I think that for me right now, because the end is, I mean, who knows? God, will we get the novellas? Will we get the show? How many years will we wait? What will it look like? I think for now, the idea that Egg can actually, that it's not just fun. Be happy in a place like this for now. Yeah, because it's like we have the summer hole knowledge he doesn't. Obviously, he has the exposure to this prophecy, though, which maybe really heightens that sense of fear that he has now, that he's been exposed to that. And I think the fact that right now he's like, I just want to try to, I don't want that hair coming out of my head, and I don't want to end up like the guy in that bed. I think that there's a better life that I could live, and I want to be with the person who could help me live it is really interesting and, like, exciting to think about and for Dunk to be a person who can maybe not only grant Egg that opportunity but spare him from just one knife thrust, being one knife thrust away right now from falling into that pit. And then, like, what's the history of the realm if Egg is lost now instead of later? Also really interesting to think about. So, yeah, I like it. Certainly your words of caution about maybe the tipping points and the complexities of, like, something feeling very clearly stated as a future circumstance. Who knows if that fortune teller got it right, you know? Sure. Who knows? And language is a tricky thing. Our listener Clinton, on that front, our listener Clinton did write in, like, sort of talking about these moments of darkness that we see in Egg. Like, and bringing up Dany and saying, it reminds me of thinking Dany is good and righteous, despite there being plenty of evidence that she is violent and cruel. She locks our own a vault, crucifies the masters, burns the calls alive. Like, you know, that there were steps along the way with Daenerys. It was just, like, not very well executed at the end of the day. And maybe they're trying to do a better version of that here with Egg. Yeah, and it's interesting, like, you know, thinking of how, again, the end of Thrones could not be more imperfect. but, like, Danny, we don't need to talk about the other ones, but, like, you know, finally being on the precipice of this thing, and then it's, like, they prefer John. Shora, he's gone. You know, having those things ripped away and then feeling, yeah, right. The, like, my mind starts to think of, because we have seen these moments of darkness from Egg, and he knows that's there, and we know that's there. It's less, like, are these things inherently in conflict with each other and more, well, what then pulls him down so that he can't swim back out? And it's like, well, what if it's feeling that he lost Dunk at the end, you know? And that would be like, and what would Egg have to do for Dunk to say, like, you're not my Egg anymore. You're not the king I thought you were, you know? Yeah, exactly. You're not the king I thought you were. Our listener, Ashley, wrote in this really interesting conversation about Summerhall. I can't help but tie the conversation Dunk has with Darren in this episode with an all-time quote from our guy, Maester Eamon. Quote, my brothers dreamed dragons and the dragons killed them, everyone, end quote. These tragic little boys were sitting in Summerhall together talking about their dreams of dragons until Darren started to come true. Now it isn't a game anymore and Arian starts the process of, quote, killing the boy to let the dragon be scored. Maybe puberty is when these dreams start really taking off and Darren sees the writing on the wall for Egg. He's like, quote, Get this kid away from the constant dragon symbolism. End quote. With Summerhall being such a place of mystery, it makes me wonder if it's one of the, quote, hinges of the world where magic is strongest. We talked about this with Harren Hall with House of the Dragon last season. Resuming. We have a long track of dragon dreamers in the line, but was there ever a group so condensed? They're the only ones at this point who have ever really lived at Summerhall for an extended period of time, begging the Targaryens to write up a care and keeping of you book for dreamers, always gorging on grief at Summerhall. So this idea that Summerhall itself is this place that sort of like a super soldier's theorem enhances the prophetic dreaming and dragon participation of these. I think it's entirely possible. I think it's also possible, and this is less poetic and compelling, that we just have more canon for this period of time and this stretch of the family, like, you know, the fact that we didn't know until Hot D season one that Aegon the Conqueror was a dreamer, but he is, and everything we've learned about Viserys, etc. So I think it's also just possible that the more time we spend in other stretches of Targaryen history and other adaptations, we'll see more dreamers. But I really do like the, especially because Aegon in Mystery Night starts actively talking about Daeron's dreams and about dragons, which is only a couple years away. this like, hey, it's about to really kick off. Yeah, I think that's interesting. Last but not least, can I do a sort of roundup of some season two information? Okay, so Nicole wrote in to say, have I missed something, or have they still not announced the casting for season two, including Lady Rohan? And more importantly, Benis. I have seen, like, not officially, but I've seen a cast list that seems pretty well corroborated. It's not David Tennant. God damn it. It's not official though, so I don't want to cite it necessarily, but I will say all over the place, I've seen the rumor that the actress Lucy Boynton has been cast as Lady Rohan, and I love her. Sing Street, if our producer Carlos is listening, we love Sing Street. She's amazing. She would be incredible in the role, so I hope that that's true. That's a rumor that has not been announced in the trades or anything like that, but they were already filming, so I believe they've cast these actors. Sam Sproul, as I mentioned, according to THR, not in season two. That's a bummer. In IGN, for IGN, Ira Parker said, if season one is really about fathers and sons and what's passed on to the next generation, season two will explore the theme of, quote, loyalty and maybe against blind loyalty. Right. In Variety, Ira Parker said, they do go to Dorne. How much of that will cover, I'll leave that to people to tune in for season two. I don't know if I'm supposed to talk about it yet. For the most part, we're following the book, so season one is the hedge knight, season two is the sworn sword. Ira Parker also said HBO, he said this about HBO's permission for season one and the supplies of season two, that HBO said anywhere between 30 minutes and 60 minutes is fine for an episode length, which gives us a very large target to hit. We could let them be what they need to be based on the source material. And then he said, one of the promises I made to George very early on is that I really wouldn't create story. We were adding to the character and the world. We're writing this TV show as if George had written a novel instead of a novella. So we're just filling out things that he naturally probably would have done. Interesting. Except for the make our thing. So, yeah, I will send you the very unofficial cast list that I have seen floating around. I will just say, again, without committing anything because, like, it is not been officially announced. It's more, it's less the, like, slight stunt of, like, a David Tennant and more, like, what we really like that Hot D does and this season did, which is, like, find great British actors who've been, like, you know, like, Bertie, who's been, like, you know, like, who has been working for years, who, like, people saw in Matilda and was in, like, Jonathan Strange and all those stuff, and, like, really highlighting them. So, like, I think taking, like, really hardworking character, British character actors and sort of, like, giving them time to shine. Venice and Eustace are perfect for, yeah, I mean, these characters are perfect for that. I'll be interested to see if Dorne is the beginning or, because there are moments of, like, thinking back. Chestnut. Yeah. Et cetera. But, like. That we could get sprinkled in as flashbacks. I feel a little weird because, like, so what I'm hoping. Yeah. Is that Dunk goes to Dorne. Yeah. Has sex with, I would like him to. Absolutely. Drop the B card for 10th L2Tall. That sounds great. No question. Yeah. But should he be flashing back to that in a season where he is, pursuing another woman. Does that feel disrespectful to the very sweet Tencel Too Tall story? I don't know how I feel. It'll depend on how it's done. It'll depend on how he yanks that braid. I want to be really in on the braid yanking. I am all for it. Will Tencel be a distraction from that? Do you know what I mean? I don't know. I'm just asking questions. I'm excited. I can't wait. If you have questions, hobbysanddragons.gmail.com for our mailbag episode that we will be doing next week. I'm going to miss talking about the show. I know. So good. And watching it and seeing all the, like, Sunday night, you know, like, memes and tweets and everyone just being really excited and really, really into it. I know. Bummer. Sad it's over. Hopefully we won't have to wait beyond next winter or, like, spring. I guess they're going to have a White Lotus season. And, like, Harry. I'm hopeful it comes to us. I'm hopeful it comes a lot of stuff coming. With, you know, the pit in, like, that we make like January like. Maybe they'll do Lotus in like the summer. Yeah, well, I mean, if it's supposed to be like a, you know, Mediterranean Lotus, then sure. We will be covering it live from France. Okay. After we go to Stratford and Oxford? That's right. Okay, great. We can location scout for top studios. We'll definitely do all these things. Wrap it up. Thank you to the whole team for a wonderful season of Deep Dives. Thank you, as always, to the Bad Babies for spending hours of your week with us. We never take it for granted. It's always just a joy. Hours and hours every week. You guys are the best. Thank you today to, of course, as always, Carlos Cherboga, legend, or Junior M. Gopal, legend. Join me at dinner on legend, the team. But also CT is here with us today for our first day in this new studio. And, like, the entire Ringer Spotify team. Everyone's here. Kevin's here. Jack's here. Everybody's here. so thank you to everybody who helped us get in here today at the last minute and have this wonderful space anything else to say about the studio design? we'll probably put some murder cloaks on for the hot D trailer I feel like it would be appropriate we probably should oh okay are they going to fix the AC before we do that? that's a great question join us for the House of the Dragons season 3 teaser trailer breakdown tomorrow for the mailbag next week and then sometime next year in 2027 is this 2026? this year? What year is it? But also just stay around because we're doing like Project Hail Mary. So stick around. Don't leave for a year. We'll be back. Bye.