Kiki's Delivery Service w. Livia Tsang

Hello, you. Welcome to You Are Good, a feelings podcast about movies. Today, we are talking about Kiki's delivery service and we're talking about it with my great friend, Libya saying, I am your host, Alex Steed. So happy that you're here to talk about movies and feelings with us. You Are Good is a feelings podcast about movies. So it's exactly what it sounds like. This is a show where we watch movies and we talk about how they make us feel about who and how we are in the world. This one is feelings packed, so buckle up. We are not film critics. We're not here to say this was good or this was bad, though. This is very good. This is great. We're here to excavate the feelings of it all, let's say. These delivery services in 1989, Japanese animated fantasy film written, produced and directed by Hayao Miyazaki. It is animated by Studio Ghibli, which I'm so sorry I referred to at least once as Studio Ghibli in this chat and consider me repenting right now. The story follows Kiki, a young witch who moves to the port city of Kariko with her cat Gigi and starts a flying courier service. We watched the English dub, I should say, which was produced in 1997. Livia saying, is a great friend who's based in Toronto, is a visual artist, is a tattooer. And we've been friends from the internet for quite a while now, we're friends via the show now. And I was supposed to see Livia and supposed to see the new Ghibli film with them when I was in Toronto last, but I ended up getting a little sick on one of the days and did not end up seeing Livia. And so that's a bummer. Gotta get back to Toronto, gotta get back to Toronto and hang with Livia. But check out Livia's art, check out Livia's work, get tattooed by Livia, really just phenomenal, talented person. How are you doing? What's going on in your world? How are you feeling? Let us know what's going on in your life. Let us know how you're feeling. I just recorded just now an episode on Children of Men. I recorded with Josie Rees-Man, who I just adore Josie's writing. I was glad to talk about that movie with Josie. And it reminds of this thing that I say at the beginning episodes, which is we stave off dread by sort of getting involved in the ways that we can and getting involved with our community and all that. Because it's, more than ever before, I see that movie as a movie about hope and faith in things that are bigger than us and imagination and the daring to imagine something beyond the things our anxiety tells us is inevitable. And so, yeah, that's how I'm doing. I mean, Los Angeles is beautiful, but the world is really doing the world thing. And it's important to remember, especially, you know, that's what makes this came up in the chat, but that's what makes this whole thing about the attention economy stealing our attention. So nefarious, because it steals the place where we would normally be able to do things like be bored and imaginative. And that's really sort of where hope lies is in our imaginations, is in our faith. And I don't mean faith is in, obviously, like, I know that that's a heavy and weighted word because, well, ways that a lot of us grew up, but I just mean, you know, faith in a future. And I have that because I despite it all, despite all the things that my anxiety tells me is the absolute undeniable scary truth. I know a bunch of people that I know that are really fucking good. So let's keep showing up. Let's keep doing the things. I look forward to releasing that episode. I love this episode that we're talking about right now. I love this episode on Kiki's delivery service, which among many other things is a movie about burnout and about creativity and about being a creative person and about being an artist and about being a little woods witch who has a queer friend who lives in the woods. I love it. I love it. I love it. I am so happy that we got to talk about this. I'm so happy that we got to talk about this with with Olivia, who I really appreciate and who had a lot of great things to say about it. All that said, just a quick reminder, just in case you're not hearing it elsewhere and just in case, you know, it's one of those things that's easy to forget in the face of all that's going on, that you, yes, you, my friend, are good. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. One about Star Trek, the next generation, and then the other, which is free to everyone about the pit. Still trying to figure out what this month is going to be about, but it'll be a movie this time. We're not going to do a, we're not going to do another TV episode probably in quite a while. That's not what we do, but it just made sense in that moment. Thank you again to everyone who supports us over there. If you're looking to support our friends in Gaza, in Palestine, more broadly, Palestine Children's Relief Fund is a great way to start. There's all sorts of campaigns, all sorts of ways that you can give, you know, check all those out as well. But a great place to start is Palestine Children's Relief Fund. I will have a link in the show notes. All right, let's just get into this one. This is a fun ride. Really, really love this movie. Love talking about it with Livia. And I'm excited to share that with you right now. Hello, Livia saying. Hello, Alex Steed. How are you doing on this fine Miyazaki morning? Pretty good. Honestly, the weather's been cooperating here. When we were supposed to initially record, it was snowing that day in Toronto. No, no, no. And so we finally have like the beautiful weather back. We're ready to talk about a fun little movie. Yeah, I'm excited. Thank you for having me back again. I know it's not January, but I am back. I'm so happy to have you. I'm happy to have you anytime you want to be here. So please keep recommending whatever you want to cover and you'll always be welcome. I am so excited to cover this in particular. We're talking about Kiki's delivery service. I am a person who missed. And I'm trying to deconstruct why this is. I'm a person who missed almost anything that could technically be called anime. And I am a person who wholly missed Ghibli films. And as the more I learn, there's a great channel I talk about a lot here called Paparino, which dives into year by year, the history of everything that appeared on Nickelodeon. And so much of like my era of Nickelodeon was either like Canadian television programming repackage for the United States or stuff that was even produced by like early iterations of Ghibli, which I didn't realize until recently. And for some reason, it just did not. Outside of the noozles, I was fucking huge on the noozles. I loved those little koalas. It just never stuck until later. Akira and Ghost in the Shell ended up being kind of big among 14 year old boys of my ilk. So I missed this era entirely. And then I have this experience where whenever I meet people who I really like, like a whole lot, I really adore, I find out they've seen all 22 of these movies 100 times. Yeah, yeah, totally. I feel like especially for like Asian diaspora kids, I feel like it definitely was like the kind of aesthetic that we all kind of grew up on. I actually grew up watching specifically my neighbor Totoro, which I know you guys covered on the show before, and spirited away and Howl's Moving Castle. I actually had only seen this movie like a month ago for the first time in IMAX. So my first screening of this movie was like the biggest screen possible, the loudest room possible. I want to just say that before we started this conversation, you were like, when you're in Toronto, do you want to come see a movie? And so that's your that's just what I imagine you're doing all the time as you're watching movies for the first time on huge screens. Totally. Honestly, like my partner and I live like right near a bunch of different movie theaters, IMAX theaters, and then smaller indie screens. And so we're always trying to see as many movies as possible, whether they're like current releases or like remasters of old movies. My brother, he also recently just rewatched Akira and he was we were talking a lot about how amazing it is to see like hand drawn animation from that time and how innovative it was and how it's just like it's amazing to kind of see what's possible that's like made by human hands, especially right now in like the kind of age of generative AI and you know, all of that horrible stuff. Boo. And so you saw this you saw this recently and like why was it immediately something outside of it being a adorable meditation on burnout? Why was this something that you wanted to talk about? Yeah, it's one of those things where like I had heard of the movie many times over like I've done tattoos about Kiki's delivery service for clients before and my like my partner and all of my artist friends talk about this movie all the time. And it just it just missed me for some reason. And then so I had the opportunity to see it in IMAX because they did like a whole re-release of it. And as I was watching the movie the whole time, I was like, Oh my God, this is like such a hallmark experience of artists who like move to the big city for the first time and are like trying to make it. And then they're trying to make it and dealing with burnout and then the kind of relationship that changes with your art when you kind of turn it into a business. And I figured that like, you know, I know that a lot of artists like listened to you are good and a lot of my friends and I and even clients of mine actually, we're all kind of having this conversation surrounding burnout and what it means to be an artist in like the big year of 2026 with generative AI and all these things like taking away very human jobs. And so I just thought it would be like a nice conversation for us to have, especially considering like, you know, we've had conversations about gender and generational trauma, but never about like art actually, like not yet anyway. And so I thought it would be like a nice conversation to have. I love that. It's like, yeah, this is technically a movie for kids, sure. But let's directly talk to children and the adults who are watching. And I understand that it's like nothing is just like one lane or another. It's just like it just features a child. But I love that it's like, let's talk to the viewer about what it's like when you start commercializing your art and the stuff that you love. And you're a cantankerous old smoking man, but also a 13 year old girl. And let's process what that's like. It's so I was so charmed almost seems condescending. And I don't mean that, but I was like, oh, we're really doing this, huh? This is a really great. And also there's a blimp disaster. Like this is such a wild cocktail of things. Yeah. And also I want to point out that it is also an anti war movie because Kiki's delivery services actually set in a world in which World War One and World War Two didn't happen. And so the version like the city that she's in is representative of like an amalgamation of European cities that never had war happen to them ever. And so I thought that was also like an interesting element considering again, the times, the times that we are currently in. That's so fascinating. I always love when there are movies that are doing that and it's not sort of known. Like one of my favorite movies is Dario Argento's phenomena. And in theory, phenomena takes place as if the Nazis won the war, but like they never like say it. They know it's just never, it's just like a reality on which the movie is built. But like we don't ever like get into that. But I love, I love when people are like, let's make up the setting and not talk about it for some reason. Yeah, we're just going to pretend that that's not a big deal. Don't even worry about it. Don't even think about how your life is not the same as what's happening in the movie right now. It's totally fine. Yeah, for sure. So this movie imagines a world in which, okay, I'm going to try not even plot wise yet, but I'm just going to try to understand the logic of the movie. There are witches. They exist. Our girl Kiki is a witch. She's 13. Coming of age process for being a 13 year old witch is when you become 13, you have to go to another city like a rum spring basically and learn how to be in the city. Is that the deal? And part of this is she gets a job to sustain this process and because she's 13 and hasn't done anything and can also fly, her job is to deliver packages. Yeah, I think that the whole ceremony situation or the coming of age moment is that witches have to go to a new town and establish themselves as the town which to help the community. So it's like the job of the witches to be like a community service person or healer or whatever it is. And in particular, Kiki hasn't developed any skills beyond flying. So it's like the one thing that she's really good at, which again, if you're an artist, you have like the one thing that you are really good at and you're like, well, how can I turn this into a money making venture? And she just again, I'm not gonna get the plot, all that stuff yet, but she happens to turn that into a delivery service just out of circumstance because flying is like the one thing that she's really, really good at. Yeah, a lot of what she's going through, particularly in her first year of work, are really resonant. And then also, I love everything about what she's excited about. She's like, I want to go, it's time to go sort of like see what the world is like. Also, boys, I might meet a boy, it would be cool if I met a boy. Yeah, met a boy who looked like Tintin. If I met little Tintin. And then she obviously, well, not obviously, but we watched the English dub, I should be clear, or I watched the English dub. And she has a cat voice by Phil Harmon. Yes. Which is remarkable. Amazing. Rest in peace to a legend. Rest in peace. So the IMAX version that I watched was the Japanese language version with the English subs. And then I watched the dubbed version twice to prepare for today, just because I wanted to like really kind of sit in the movie for a while. And when I realized it was Phil Hartman, all I could hear was Troy McClure's voice in the back of my head. And I was like, wow, like it's just, it's too bad. Gone too soon. It's just I, there are so few. I mean, obviously, you know, we're all touched by pop culture deaths in one way or another. But like, that is one that is for I'm just forever like, fuck, fuck. Yeah. Just like everything ever he was ever in makes me happy, including this. Okay. So I tell me a bit for people who've listened to this show and heard you before, people who already know who you are, they're going to understand maybe why this resonates. But can you just tell me about you, your artistry, what you do? Yeah. So I am a visual artist and tattooer out of Toronto, Canada. And this movie, it's came to me at a really interesting time because in my kind of history of tattooing and being an artist like working in the world, I have been working at a private studio. I worked at like a larger studio for about five years, moved out of that studio into a private space with two other artists. And then those two artists, you know, life, like people have kids and people are doing career changes. So now I'm at my studio for the first time, like completely by myself. And it's been like about six ish months. And so, you know, that kind of feeling of having to start over again and be like, even though I have all this experience as like a working artist, I've kind of come to a place where I'm experiencing first again in my mid 30s, which is a kind of exciting and also very scary. And that conversation around combating burnout is like constantly, constantly happening, especially like, you know, we're living under capitalism, which is very quickly, quickly turning into fascism. And so trying to be a working artist at this time has been an interesting struggle. And I think this movie kind of presents a very gentle solution of like how you can kind of come back to yourself as an artist. And yeah, it's just a conversation that I really wanted to have, especially now, like I'm trying to also explore different avenues, not just tattooing, but like I'm back into fine arts as well again. And so just a lot of life changes, things happening. And in so many ways, it does truly feel like I'm back to being like parenting the teenage version of myself where every day I'm like, it's going to be fine. Don't worry, things will all fall into place. And then the other part of me is like, do we know that for sure? And I'm like, well, no, but we still have to stay alive. So it just is what it is. Yeah, these are the options we have. Yeah, I often am going through a very similar thing. And then also going, oh, I got to do this for like 30 more years. Yeah, yeah, for the rest of my life. This is what it's going to be. I got to do this like 30 to 40 more years. Yeah, I think that that's going to resonate with a lot of people who are feeling like what exactly is happening right now and what's going to be happening for the rest of it. All right, should we try to explain what this? Yeah, actually one more question. And this is a massive question. And I don't mean it to me. Also, is it is it Ghibli or Ghibli? Is this controversial? I feel like yes, specifically because I'm not Japanese. And so I feel like we could both get it wrong. I have my for my whole life been calling it Studio Ghibli. But we'll see. I feel like people people can let us know if we're if we're right or wrong. And I love that. Do you want to explain to whatever extent you can and what Studio Ghibli is? Like, is that a thing you have any familiarity with? Yeah, we can try. I mean, so Studio Ghibli is an animation studio in Japan in terms of like its popularity. It's definitely as big as Disney in Japan. You know, they have a museum in, I believe in Tokyo where they have like they show all of the behind the scenes stuff. And Hayami Izaki is kind of like the guy at Studio Ghibli. He's the one who's behind everyone's like most well known favorite Ghibli films. And I feel like with his films in particular, there's like two different kind of versions of Ghibli films. One of them is the kind of slower paced slice of life, like trying to show like the magic of the mundanity in every day and the kind of slowing down and taking account of like all of your daily goings on. And then the other kind of vein is this is a movie about war. There's like two versions. It's either this is a slow movie about children living life and having a great time. And the other version is like there's war happening. And you know, that's kind of just like the whole crux of Studio Ghibli. And so this movie kind of combines both of those things, but is very much sort of centered around the idea of failure, the idea of going out on your own for the first time, a lot of themes of like maturing past or like trying to differentiate yourself like from your family, from your elders. And obviously, like a lot of cultural touch points that are like relevant to Japanese culture that we also, you know, shared humanity way. We all kind of have in common with each other. Beautifully said. And I love the contrast. I mean, this is such an oversimplification about the contrast. But if Ghibli, Miyazaki is Ghibli's Walt Disney in this case, right? Like Walt Disney is like so American in that there's like, there's such an optimism and underlying fascism all the time like within that and that sort of optimism. And I don't say this as a general statement about sort of like all Disney properties, I mean, whatever, whatever, but like Disney himself is like the Henry Ford in every way possible of this animation that is so associated with like American culture. And Miyazaki is like the exact opposite on every front, which I think is so cool. Yeah, really cool, really beautiful. Like one of my favorite things about Ghibli movies is like anytime there's like a cooking scene, they always really take their time to show like the beauty and the preparation of the food, the cooking of the food, the consuming of the food. And like even in like in this movie too, there's like quiet moments like in the there's like a part where Kiki like uses the washroom after her first morning staying at the bakery. And it's just like her slow little morning where she's like avoiding people because she's like still shy and you know, like being like a little 13 year old girl in that way. And it really just shows like those quiet character moments of like, how are you when you're totally by yourself? What is life like for you when you take a chance to slow down? And so the fact that they like to really showcase that and highlight it in these movies, it kind of like gives us a second to like pause. It's almost like the visual equivalent of having like a little cup of tea, you know, and just like relaxing. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, really great way to put it. The thing that is fascinating about, I can really only speak to this movie right now, but like the thing that is fascinating about this is like in a lot of animated American animated films that I'm familiar with, right? Like the choice of what to focus on is action. And you focus on action. And this movie focuses on stillness in a really great way, or intentionality, I should say, not just stillness. And of course, we get a lot of action. It's not to say that that does not happen. But the action in like American animation is like is pretty specifically like adversarial action. Like it's like, there's some sort of violence to it. And in this, like there's a lot of these like still and slow moments. And then we also get like commentary when one of the characters is watching the blimp go down live on the live on TV. And she's like, oh, we were just getting to the good part. And by the way, the part that she's referring to is the blimp crashing into like a group of people. Yeah, it's like, it's the Hindenburg basically. And she's like, damn, my TV is not working. I can't watch this inferno of human bodies. Exactly. And she's like also like one of the oldest, like visually oldest characters in the movie. So it's like in a world where there's no war, she's still looking for violence. Yeah. All right, so let's talk about what this movie is. I'm going to try please help me out because it is a struggle in my brain. Yeah. So if Kiki, like we said, she's going she has her cat, Gigi. Cutest cat I've ever seen on screen. So cute. So tiny. And voice by Phil Hartman. It's such a choice. Like this tiniest cat, the tiniest kitty cat with like the most grown man voice. So good. As I understand it, the Japanese version, it's like a young girl who plays the cat. Is that true? Or is it? I think it's still a man. It's not Phil Hartman. Okay, it is. Okay, cool. I think it's still a grown man because I remember watching the movie and I was like, that's an interesting choice. I'm pretty sure it's still like an older man because I think in the movie, Gigi's ability to speak is supposed to be kind of indicative of Kiki needing like a mature kind of voice in the back of her head because she's still as a child needing like the adult in the room. And so, you know, I will get into it, but it's like as she starts to like lose her powers over the course of the movie. And then she still like can't really understand him like later on in the film. It's because she's like developed her own internal voice where she's like, she knows herself better, she has more confidence, so she doesn't need to like speak to Gigi as like a kind of bouncing off point anymore. But you know, if Phil Hartman could speak Japanese, it would have been such a treat to have him in the original film. My God, absolutely. That vibe. I would love to just briefly take it aside and I'm just going to note this phenomenon and everyone feel free to weigh in on it in the wherever comments happen these days. But the phenomenon of teen girl, adult male cat was a real thing that happened at this time, including Sabrina, of course, our friend, Sabrina, the teenage witch. And well, I guess like not so much in it was interesting and hocus pocus because our friend that showed Jason Marsden plays banks, banks his voice and hocus pocus and he's like eternally a trapped teenage boy. So I think that that kind of works. But I really love the odd couple of teen girl and advanced middle-aged man voiced cat. They did that in Coraline too. Do they? With Keith David. Keith David voices the cat. Oh my God. Keith David is the cat. Yeah. And it's like it's jarring if the first Keith David movie you've ever seen is Requiem for a Dream. And then you watch Coraline right after you're like, oh, that's a different movie. That's really amazing. My first Keith David film is They Live with the infamous 11 minute fight between him and Roddy Piper. So this is amazing to know. Really great. Yeah. So we have we have Phil Hartman cat. Geeky has to go on this coming of age adventure to become adult in her witchery. Her mom, you had explained the logic earlier where like these people are finding the towns that they're ultimately going to be the witch for. Her mom wants her to take her broom, right? Because it's old. What is the broom situation? Yeah, I think that whole scenario, it's not just the broom. It's also like her mom is like the potions master of the town. And so her mom wanted Kiki to also learn how to do potions. But Kiki only is interested in flying or it's like the only skill she's developed. And so yeah, her mom wants her to take her broom because it's a more reliable broom for the journey. And Kiki wants to take her own broom, which like she just made herself. And I think that part is like the tension between the younger generation wanting to go off on their own and do their own thing. And then the older generation being like, well, this is tried and true. And this will actually afford you safety. So why don't we just like go with like the safe option, especially because you're 13 and you're going on like a cross country journey by yourself on a broom with no helmet and no protective anything. And also it's like the first thing that she does when she flies off is she hits a tree, valid, valid concern by her mom. And she runs into like, this is all so real, right? Because the first thing she'd also the opening song in this, these credits, I was like, I heard that song, which I will, unless you know off the top of your head, I will mention my name later. But I heard that song and I was like, I'm going to be insufferable about this song for the rest of my life. Like this is so good. This is a song I want to listen to daily forever. So she runs into in her journey, another witch, and that which is cool. She runs into a cool witch. She's so cool. She's got like the fun hair. She's got the jewelry. She's like, I don't like to fly with any sound because I'm better than you. And you're like, okay, like maybe one day I don't have to be overstimulated every moment of my life, but not today. Yeah. Kiki's like, Kiki's so earnest and like asking questions and stuff and does not yet maybe know the phenomenon of running into a hipster. Like Kiki's never run into a hipster before. Completely. Completely. And even like, even the other witches cat is like so stuck up and Gigi's like, oh, what an asshole. Like what a rude cat. I can't believe. And you're like, well, but she is cool and she does have a job and we would love to have a job. Yeah, totally. Like and Kiki, I don't know. There's that really, I found that's a whole scene endearing where like she's really showing up with great enthusiasm and that person is not having it yet and or not having it. And Kiki's not yet familiar with that dynamic, but that dynamic never gets her down. Like what does get her down is like, is again, we'll talk about it burnout later. This movie's not afraid to be like certain people are shitty and I like that. Yeah. Oh my God. Yes, we'll get into it. But there's like a moment later on in the movie that when I saw it in the theater, I was like her reaction to that moment is the most relatable thing I've ever seen in my whole life. Is it the girl who doesn't like the herring? Yeah, it's like you have one negative experience with a client and then it sends you into a depression spiral that just shuts your whole body down. I'm like, that's relatable. That's so relatable. Absolutely. I didn't even put it in that context, but you're absolutely right. And like I was like, fuck that girl. I was like angry. When that girl was like 13, I was like, fuck her. What a bitch. Oh, yeah, I was so angry. I can't wait to talk about that. But so she's looking for the new town to live in. She founds Carrico Carrico Carrico and she essentially like stumbles into town, causing disruptions, getting the police involved. Yeah, I was going to say, like immediately, immediately harassed by the police, immediately harassed by the police, and she immediately flees. And then this young dreamboat Tombo shows up on his bike. And I say dreamboat not in the conventional sense and that like he's dreamy, but in the sense that like he immediately announces himself and he's like, Hey, I tricked the stupid police into like not paying the attention to you. And you're like, that's my boy for life. Yeah, what a chap. Like and he's also like immediately a simp for her. He's like, first of all, you're cool. You're so cool. I like to fly. You like to fly. You're a little mean to me. And I'm really into that. Like he's such a sweet boy and he's so interested in her and like her being kind of standoffish to him doesn't like deter him. And like, look, I know that there's like conversations that people will be like, well, is it really good if like a man won't stop harassing a woman, but it's also like their children. And he clearly like wants to be her friend and is trying to like help her like integrate into this new community. And he's not being malicious in any way. He literally just like wants to be her friend and get to know her. It's like, it's so sincere and so sweet. And again, I do think it's like a positive thing that he was like, I distracted the stupid cops. And you're like, yeah, that's a plus one automatically a plus one. This kid rules like he's great. And he's like, he's one of my favorite things, which is like, he loves the thing that he loves. And he's like extremely passionate about those things and wants to share in that with other people who feel similarly about similar things. And yeah, he's just like a little passionate nerd who is ACAB. And we love that in a little guy. Yeah, ladies, find yourself a passionate ACAB nerd. If you're on these apps looking for men in these streets, make sure for at the bare minimum that they don't like the police. That's like the bare minimum that we can do. Make sure they're ACAB. That's so true. That's so true. So she's looking for a place to work. She finds this bakery that's owned by a son in her husband, Fouquot, who are expecting a child and they're cool as hell. Like, well, in particular, a son is very, very cool. How would you describe this character? Yeah, she's just like, what a sweet lady. Like, I feel like everyone kind of when you move to the city for the first time as like a budding aspiring artist and you're like completely alone, you kind of dream of having someone like Osono there to be like, oh, do you need like a point of contact for like emergencies? Do you need someone who can offer community care to you? Do you need a place to live kind of for free? Like you want to like man the counter of a bakery and then I'll give you like a free home, like free room and board and food. She's like an elder queer, but she's not the same because she's not a witch. But like she is like that kind of person you find in the city who really like shows you the ropes. Totally. And it's interesting too, because it's like there's multiple kind of elder queer coded characters in the movie. Because there's like Osono is one of them. Her husband is also kind of one of them too. Because like when he made the little bread sign for her in the window, I started ugly crying in the theater. Especially like as someone who got into breadmaking over the last like two years, it takes a really long time guys to bake a loaf of bread. It's a really long time to bake a loaf of bread takes a really long time to make like an artisanal loaf that's shaped like anything. And so I thought that was really beautiful. And then she also has like another character, I think Ursula is her name, the one who like the one who's clearly like a lesbian who lives in the forest. The movie is full of like if they're not like explicitly queer, it's kind of under the umbrella of like that queer radical love where everyone is like really interested in community acceptance and community service and care and that kind of stuff. And so having her there as a Kiki's first point of contact in the film, you know, she's losing her parents because she's traveling away from home. And then she gets these two new adoptive parents who like immediately take her in, which is so nice. And again, like maybe I'm like, is that only available to us in a situation where there's no war? And I want to believe that like there are people out there that are just like that friendly and that sweet. But the whole time I was like, wow, she really, she got very lucky on her first day in the big city. For sure. And I don't know, I mean, I, I'm a believer, like, God, I love being in LA for all sorts of reasons. But one is just like the overall population density has made possible just finding such like a high percentage of fellow I'll do anything for you queers, which is like, you know, one of my favorite things. And that's why I always, you know, I enjoy like quiet living and country living and stuff. But like, I really love a city that that kind of has that to offer, even though, you know, every other element about living in a city is like grandly oppressive. It makes, you know, yeah, totally. Meaning like specifically just like cost of living and stuff. But it's always nice to have at least 10 artsy queer weirdos somewhere where you know, you can be in good company. Exactly. So it's ultimately a son who presents the opportunity to start a business as a delivery, which and she also like so sorry, we're talking about plot, but I can't help but be like, I love that this movie, I don't know how much we get of this anymore, just because of like how, you know, the satanic panic panic was supposed to have gone away, not just become a daily norm all the time. And that's unfortunately where we're at now. But like this idea that it's like, I just feel like we're really missing media where like young witches are a normal thing and no one's like, oh, like, like, like, oh, you're bad. I say that. However, Harry Potter is huge. But the way that they made it huge, ultimately, and continue to make it huge is laundering it through the biggest transphobia in the world. So, okay, God, we could go down that road forever. That's a whole other conversation. I just love that she's a little witch and no one says anything about it outside of witching is cool. Yeah, like even when she gets to the city for the first time and she's like, hello, everyone, I would like to live here and be your community which everyone's like, okay, and then they just go on about their day. They're like, yeah, sure. That's like not a problem. If you if you want, that's totally fine. Yeah. Yeah, it's like on par with being like a mechanic or a baker or like it's like you're just are providing a service in the community. Yeah. And like even when she's like flying around doing deliveries, no one's like, oh my God, there's a little girl in a broom doing deliveries. They're like, oh, yeah, there she goes. That's our little witch. And there she goes like delivering parcels that are bigger than her, you know, that's our witch. I also like that idea that it's like so normalized that like sometimes have a witch that's like kind of annoying probably or like sometimes have a witch that's like too chatty like you can't get a little bit. We gotta imagine if like if this was like a contemporary story and like the witches skill was podcasting. The witch was just like an exceptional editor, like a really great really brought stories together like make narratives pop. Yeah. It's a son who is like I have a gift that I need delivered to my nephew. The gift is a stuffed cat. It's not a son. Oh, it's a customer who comes into the bakery. Oh, okay. Okay. For some reason, I thought, oh, it's a son who's neighbor. That's it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Thank you. And she and a son of broker for this deal is like she should do it. The task is to bring a stuffed cat to this nephew and on the way Kiki drops the cat, the stuffed cat, it's lost. Yeah. So what happens is she's like flying with like a whole bunch of geese and then there's like a big gust of wind and then she drops the toy and the the cat stuffed toy is in like a canary cage and then she lands in like the nest of a bunch of crows and then the crows think that she's trying to steal their eggs and so they attack her, which is hilarious. And then she flies off with Gigi and then they realize that like actually she dropped the stuffed toy somewhere in the forest and so Gigi, because Gigi looks like the stuffed animal has to pretend to be the toy that gets delivered to the little boy's birthday party and then it's a whole thing where like Kiki has to find the toy and then rescue Gigi and then Gigi's trapped in a house with a dog and it's just yeah, it's so good. And the Japanese dub of that scene in particular or the subversion of that scene is like really, really delightful because you know, like they eventually rescue Gigi from the house and everything and when Gigi is reunited with Kiki in the subversion, he goes, Kiki, this marvelous dog helped me in like in the regular version. He's like, my friend Jeff and you're like, okay, my friend Jeff saved me from the house. But yeah, it's so good. I love, yeah, I love that dog who we get to know very little of the interiority of, but we know that that dog comes to the rescue by being like, that dog finds its family obnoxious. Yeah, totally. That dog is burnt out. The dog is also burnt out. That dog is the picture of burnout when your co-workers are nuts. Yeah. And when Kiki goes to find the missing toy, this is where she finds the lesbian in the woods and tell us about her. It seems to me that she's just like an artist who really just wants to live off the grid. She like communes with the crows and like speaks to them. Her name is Ursula, like the sea witch. Her name is Ursula. She wears Birkenstocks, you know what I mean? She has a straw hat. She lives in the woods by herself. She hangs out with crows. Ursula who hangs out with crows in the woods with Birkenstocks and also at some point when they're like a different point in the movie, she's like hitchhiking back to the woods and then like the guy who picks her up, he's like, I thought you were a boy and she's like, do boys have legs like these? I love that line so much. And she's so funny too because like, you know, she has the little stuffed toy and Kiki's like, can I please have it back? And then Kiki finds out that the head of the toy is like coming off. So it has to be like sewn back on. And so Ursula convinces Kiki to do manual labor for her while she repairs this thing. And as I was watching it, I was like, how long does it take to sew a head back on a cat toy? Because it's been hours and like the moon is out. It's like so dark. I'm like, Gigi is dead. Like what are we doing? If he's not been eaten by the dog, he's like been shaken up so badly by this child who keeps waving him around like he's an inanimate object. And so the whole time I was like, I don't know. I think Kiki like you got to move a little faster. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kiki's going to learn some lessons out in the world in this coming image time. And this is one of them. I did similarly wonder like how much time is supposed to be elapsing because this is taking a good deal. And that's again, the stakes in the movie, we get to real stakes later, but like the stakes in the movie are stakes when you're 13. It's like she was supposed to do one task, didn't complete the task, is like grandly embarrassed and feels like a lot of stress about that is trying to like complete the task, meets people along the way. And again, at the end of the day, I mean, there are stakes in that Gigi is like in this house in a probably nightmare scenario for Gigi who is a cantankerous. But yeah, at the end of the day, she just has to like get a headstone back on a toy. Yeah. And it's also like, you know, the desire on her part to like do her job perfectly. And then it's like the first real job that you have, you like fuck it up and you're trying to like make sure people don't know that you fucked it up so you can continue to run your business. So I was like, again, these are all very, very familiar feelings of like starting something for the first time, being kind of bad at it, trying not to let people know you're kind of bad at it. And then just like continuing on with like the feeling of imposter syndrome. And I mean, she eventually does it, but it's also like, it's been the whole day, one delivery took her the whole day. It has been the whole day. That's exactly right. Yeah. And again, that like as a result, we later get a point where she's pressed for time. And yeah, watching her form, that's so fascinating. I didn't even think about it as like we're watching in this coming of age piece, this element of coming of age that like actually doesn't really get explored very much in any of the movies that come to my mind, which is like a renegotiation of your relationship with time. Yeah, totally. Especially as I mean, you know, as people with ADHD, our relationship with time is precarious at best. It's fleeting. It's sometimes you're just chilling, getting some a herring pot pie put together and you don't consider that the parties in 15 minutes you should technically have left like one hour ago. You probably shouldn't have even taken this task on. Yeah, because it's like you still have to complete like a delivery job before you can get to the party. You also have to get ready for the party. She didn't check the weather on her way back from the thing. So it's all the things. Yeah, it's very much just like when you have like one task. I don't know anyone else is like this, like when you have when you're neurodivergent and feel away about time where it's like if you have one task in the middle of the day, nothing is happening that whole day until you complete the task. And then whatever happens after that task is done is not my business. I'll figure that out when the time comes. Yeah, anticipation of the task takes a lot of time and then dread about the task takes a lot of time. And then there's like there's luck on God. There's either like in any partnership or I don't know, there are all sorts of formations of whatever these days, but like in any group usually bound by either romance or intimacy, there's one person who thinks that getting ready and leaving the house takes 10 minutes no matter what the task is. And there's one person who endures that situation. That's my relationship. That's right. I'm very familiar with it. So now she knows Ursula, who's the resident arts lesbian who lives in the woods. And now next day, Tombo, our friend, our ACAB nerd friend. Love him. I guess like a couple of questions. Tombo's friend group, which is like a bunch of boys who are always yelling out of a car. Are they cool? Like I can't tell. Are they nice? Like are the things that they're saying like what is their vibe? It's interesting because so the first group of people that we see Tombo with are all boys and then eventually we do see him like when it's when they're like, oh, we're going to go check out the blimp. I can't say the word dirigible. I don't know that it doesn't sound like a real word to me. We're going to call it a blimp. Yeah, we're doing blimp today. So when they go to see the blimp, there's also a bunch of girls in the car. And one of the girls is the one who like doesn't want the herring pie from her grandma. So I think that in Kiki's mind, first of all, the first group of boys who are like kind of harassing her, lightly harassing her, whatever it is. I think that in that moment she's like, oh, like boys or whatever. And then in the second instance, when she meets them, I think that she remembers that like one of the people is the one that she delivered to. And also I think it has to do with her feeling insecure about herself. Like she mentions that, you know, they have like nicer things to wear. They're more fashionable than her. And so I think part of it is that maybe they're like a little rough around the edges. And I think the other part of it is that she feels insecure about herself, which makes it so that she doesn't feel comfortable or confident enough to like make new friends who are very different than her in the city, which is also a relatable feeling too, where you're like, man, these hipsters are so cool. They suck. And you're like, do they? Or are you just feeling bad about yourself right now? Hard to say. We just described 100% of my 20s. When does she meet the older lady? She meets the older lady, I think like right after this. So Tombow invites her to a party with his aviation flying club. And I think all of these kids are also in the aviation club. And so they have like all of that in common. But Kiki wouldn't know that because she hasn't talked to anybody other than him. So it's in that moment where she like has a delivery come in where she like there's a customer who comes into the store that she has to make a delivery for. And then from that delivery, she goes to the old lady's house to help her with the herring and pumpkin pie. And then that's the delivery that goes wrong afterwards. What is the interaction? I can't remember what this woman's name is. I don't remember her name either. I don't know if they ever gave her a name. And if they did again, you guys can let us know. Sorry about that. Yeah, she shows up and she's like, I'm here to deliver the deliveries at four. She's going to pick the thing up at four. The parties at six. Again, I am stressed like, yeah, you're talking to the situation. It's four or six. She shows up there, chit chatting. They're losing time. The woman's like, I was supposed to make the herring pie and forgot or something. Well, what happens is she has like an electric oven and the electric oven stops working. So they have to go back to the old fashioned wood oven, which is like another thing about like, oh, new technology versus old technology, da, da, da, da, da. Like what's more reliable? It's like one can be more reliable, but it's also at the cost of time and like all that kind of stuff. And so that's why the pie is not ready by the time she gets there. Yeah, that's incredibly important. So Kiki's like, I can help make the pie. Let's make the pie. It gets lost in the sauce and making the pie. And then suddenly is like, oh, I've got to go to the part of the aviation party. She's also doing things around the house that she doesn't need to do. She's like changing light bulbs in the house. She's like helping them clean, which is very sweet because these are two little old women, but it's also like, as people who are aware of the time, it's like Kiki, you're on the clock right now. And then even when she's like leaving the bakery to like do her first delivery, she's like, oh my God, it's already four o'clock. I'm like, do you not have a watch? Do you not know what like a reliable timekeeper girl? I feel for you. Like she's like, I should just help whatever. Like I should help put a shelf up and you're like, why is this what you're focusing on right now? Why? Yeah, but she's so sweet. She is so sweet. And she's earlier in that day when she gets the invite by Tombo, she lets Asano know and she's stoked. Like she's very excited to be invited to go to the party and everyone is rooting for her to go to the party. And then suddenly it's like, it's party time, go to the party. And on the way, like what is the series of, what is the comedy of errors that A, stop, we're going to the party, B gets her sick. Like it's a bad scene. Yeah. Poor Kiki. So the pie is like ready. It's basically, it's like, you know, they're having a little chill time, having tea, chit chatting. And then she's like, don't worry. I have lots of time. And then the lady, she's like, by the way, by clocks are all 10 minutes behind. Don't you know? Don't you know? Didn't I tell you this when you came into the house? And so she gets the pie and she's like flying with the pie. And then it starts to rain. And then Gigi's like, can we just like stop and get out of the rain? And she's like, well, we can't because we're on a time crunch because we left late. And then also if we stop now, the food will get cold. And so when she gets to the girl's house, she's like soaked to the bone. She's like been using her dress to cover the pie and the basket and stuff. She's wet. The cat's wet. And then the girl at the door, she's like, I hate grandma's pies. And then we as an audience are like, you bitch. And then yeah, that's Kiki's like negative experience because also it's like, she spent all this time with the grandma who was like so sweet and so kind and so generous. And then you meet her granddaughter and you're like, you, what? What do you, you're, this is your grandma and you are this kind of person. That's crazy. And Phil Hartman's like, it's hard to imagine that those two are related. Totally. Yeah. And like this character is coded like fairly or unfairly. In every John Hughes movie, there's a nerdy girl who likes a dreamy guy. And that dreamy guy has a mean girlfriend. And that's how this girl's coded is the mean girlfriend from a John Hughes movie. Yes. She's very Molly Ringwald in the beginning of the Breakfast Club. Like when Molly Ringwald like shows up to detention with like a plate of sushi and you're like, what are we doing here? And it's so funny that like Molly Ringwald, both was that. And then also Molly Ringwald in 16 candles as it's like, pick a lane for Molly Ringwald, John Hughes. Yeah. We're so confused. And I also feel like the character design of this spoiled brat girl is kind of Molly Ringwald coded because she's like a ginger. Yeah. It really is. Like I'm so glad that you said that because I'm talking about John Hughes ambiguously. But yeah, I was like, this is like cool girl Molly Ringwald. Yeah. Not to be confused with 15 turns 16 Molly Ringwald who no one notices a transition that happened in one year. And we were all supposed to buy it. I was so confused as a person who grew up on that media being like, how are we supposed to feel about Molly Ringwald? Yeah. And why are all the it girls mean redheads? Yeah. Yeah. What happened, John? Even that first witch that she meets along the way, I'm pretty sure is also low key a ginger. I'm like, what is Miyazaki trying to tell us about redheaded children? This is not helping the oppressed people that are gingers. Yeah. This is the true satanic panic. It's hidden. Beware the redheaded child. Oh my gosh. She runs into this girl and the girl's mean and it sucks. And she said, and then she's stranded in the rain. Is that right? Yeah. Then basically it's like because she's flown home in the rain and she like didn't give herself a chance to dry off. She's also depressed because I guess she came to the city with one outfit, which is just the clothes on her back and she has no change of clothes to go to the party. So she can't even go and she's so depressed and then she just ends up catching a cold and then she's just like sick for a few days. But yeah, poor thing. Like that ride home where she's just like stone faced, can't believe she put all this effort into flying in the rain for this ungrateful child and just to be like and I can't even go to the party. Yeah. The aviation party. Yeah. The aviation party where she would be the star if she really went. You know what I mean? But yeah, too bad. It's just like I remember, especially with tattooing, you know, you give a lot of your energy. Oh, at least the way that I tattoo. I'm very chatty when I'm tattooing. And so a lot of the time I spend connecting with my clients. And so there's been times over the course of the 12 years that I've been working where I've been like, I've given a lot to clients like emotionally, energetically, and then you just go home and then you just lie down and you're nonverbal for like the rest of the day. Like the person who tattooed me last time, Candy at Kinzacobo in LA, the first time we met, we cry. Like in the tattoo session, like that's how I mean, I know that it's like an extremely, it can be an extremely both ambiently and directly intimate job where then you got to go home and like not think for a while. Yeah, totally. And like, you know, the amount of people that have trauma dumped on me over the course of 12 years, you really have to like get good at kind of shaking it off at the end of the day. But of course, you know, Kiki's 13. This is her first bad experience with anybody ever. And so she's just so sad. She is so sad. And it's just so sad for her. You're like this poor kid. She's really just meeting everything. Why died? And it is probably difficult. So she gets sick. She doesn't go to the party. Tombo is ultimately pretty understanding about it. And when they meet up, she's sad, right? She's like, I didn't get to go to the party. And then a so no, I forget exactly how the mechanics of it work out, but sets up a delivery where she goes to Tombo's house, which is maybe not a thing that she would have self initiated. And then Tombo is like, glad you're here. Sorry, you were sick. Do you want to see my shit? I have so much cool shit. Check it out. I'm a nerd. You're a nerd. Let's hang. The funniest part about that too was like, he was like, check out my bike with a big propeller on the front. I know it doesn't have wings, but you want to ride this bike with me? And she's like, I guess so. And while they're riding this bike together, they almost die like several times on their way to like check out this blimp. And I was like, well, if there's one way to bond with somebody, it is through several near death experiences back to back to back, I suppose. But yeah, he's like, he's just so enthusiastic. He's like, yeah, we're like building a plane. The other parts of the plane are at my friend's houses and like other areas of the city. And they just like want to go and like check out the blimp and like talk about their love of flying. It's so cute. It's just so sweet. And then in classic form, and I've been here, I love when you're like, you're into somebody and you love their friends. Like that's always so fun. And like, it's nice to know everyone and whatever. And this is the opposite experience. This is like, I'm into this guy and fuck his friends. Like, I don't want to be around these people. The girl who turned her nose up at hering pie. Also, it's fine to not like your grandma's hering pie. Don't announce it to everybody. That's what I was saying. I was like, if you're going to say that, like wait, close the door. Have that a private a private thought in your head. It doesn't have to be like upon receiving a deliver, you tell the delivery person to their face, I hate my grandma's efforts at trying to connect with me. Go away. Like, please. Yeah, chill out. And I think that Kiki's response is totally correct. It's like, I don't want to be around these people. Yeah. Yeah. And that poor boy, that stupid little boy is just like, doesn't know why she's upset and is probably like women are rational, but like he doesn't fully, I think he doesn't like get why she's frustrated. Yeah, like he has no idea. He has no idea. Yeah. And she goes off and she's like, I'm going to go be frustrated and alone and depressed and burned out. And I don't know what I'm doing. And then she also realizes that her witchery is broken. Yeah. And also during that moment where her and Tombo are like, because it's like the first time that they're able to genuinely connect where she's not trying to like run away from him, or like she's not in the middle of a delivery job, because she kind of goes through the movie, like really rejecting his efforts to be friends with her. And so now that they've almost died several times on this bike ride to the blimp, they actually have a conversation which is like where he's like, oh, you know, like for me, when I'm trying to fly, I have to put in all this effort, but you just can fly. And it's like so amazing. And she was like, yeah, well, you know, I really loved flying and it used to be fun until I started doing it for a living. And that was the moment where I was like, ah, yes, here we are. You're like, I see what we're doing. Yes. How did you feel about this as a meditation on, I mean, I love the advice, which is actually like really good advice, which is like, just don't think about it and do other stuff or like do stuff and like, maybe if you're too fixated on it, it's like part of what's burning you out, which doesn't solve the structural problem of like she needs a job and she's like using her ardor or whatever. But like as far as just, I think sometimes like when we're blocked, we go with the opposite of what would be helpful is we try to double down, which is like not ultimately what's helpful. Yeah. How do you feel about how you interpret the movie is talking about burnout, both like kind of in universe. And then also I would imagine what the movie is saying, but some of the experience of the filmmakers. Yeah. Well, I felt personally attacked. When they started talking about this stuff, I was like, okay, someone has tapped my home, someone is listening under my conversations. But it is kind of true. Like especially one of the conversations that's brought up in the movie is about what is your motivation for doing what you are doing. And I think that that has been a really helpful thing for me to meditate upon in like my actual real life, because for me, I have kind of like two streams of art making. So for me personally, I have tattooing and then I have like the fine art practices that I do when it comes like painting and drawing and stuff. And for me, I had to kind of turn for a long time, I kind of put a lot of value in my identity as a tattooer. And as I've kind of grown and been working longer in the industry, I've kind of been able to recontextualize tattooing as something that I do as like a community care service for other people. Because, you know, as much as it is my art, it's also like, I'm not the one living with it every day for the rest of my life. I'm not the one who's going to carry the art on my body until the day that I die. And so for me, tattooing has become more of a thing that how can I help people feel more like themselves through the art and the medium of tattooing. But then like when it comes to the fine art stuff, where it's like things that I want to make for myself, that's where I start to feel more of like that resistance where I'm all of the ideas are all up here, but like getting them onto canvas, onto paper is like much, much harder. And so, you know, like for me, it has been helpful to lean into other hobbies. Like for me, it's breadmaking or like cooking and broidery. You know, I have other friends who they have other creative pursuits like sewing, crocheting, like just doing gardening and like, you know, not like smoking weed gardening, but like actual gardening. It's been so confusing that that's now like a slang term for like getting high. I'm like, are we actually putting hands in the dirt or are we just like laying down for a couple hours? But yeah, I think like the idea of rest being productive, I think is like very, very helpful. But I also acknowledge that in the time that we live in, it's not always possible for us to find times to rest and to be able to not think about our art in that way, especially if it's so closely tied to how we pay our bills. And so it's a kind of always ongoing conversation of like, how do you find that balance? How do you feed into yourself? And for me, I think it's really helpful to lean into community in those kind of instances, because it's much harder to deal with those kind of feelings on your own. And, you know, they're not unique feelings either. I think burnout is like a very universal feeling. A lot of people, especially like a lot of people who work in like corporate jobs where they go to work, they come home, their job's not fully finished, because they have like meetings or like whatever it is. And then they don't have time for themselves. Like that feeling of being like isolated in the corporate environment, I think is like really harrowing for some people. And so to be able to like lean into community, lean into like whatever kind of creative pursuit that you have, even if it's not necessarily like the one that you want to focus on right now, it is helpful just to like, you know, what are people always saying right now? It's just good to have hobbies. It's a good thing to have hobbies. It makes you a more well rounded person. And how do you interpret the fact that she can't understand Gigi anymore? Yeah, I think part of it is that, you know, she's like losing her witch's powers. I know that Miyazaki has talked about her developing her own internal voice and not needing Gigi anymore. And I think that it has a lot to do with her kind of like growing into a person where some of the old things about her life previously just like aren't as maybe not aren't as valuable to her anymore, aren't as necessary to her anymore. And I think like maybe it's just that she needs to just find her own way about doing something. Because even throughout the movie, Gigi is kind of like her voice of reason in a lot of ways. And when she's no longer able to talk to him anymore, it's like she has to kind of develop that for herself. I feel that too. And it's like, it's back in all of the sort of representations of the actual transitions that take place through these coming of age periods are both sweet and profound and devastating. And I mean, there's still things I go through. I mean, I remember like going through personal stuff lately or recently, I was like, I often when that's happening, I will go on a long drive, right? Like a long drive, like multiple days drive. Like, and there's been all these transition points in my life where I usually like go at least partially across the country. And people who know me know that I'm going through it. And so, and I find it as like, I find it like sort of this important thing. And I know that I always come out the other side of that process, having internalized like whatever I needed to internalize or work through whatever I need to work through whatever. But there's always also an anticipatory grief about being like, I'm letting go of some stuff. And it's scary because it's important, but it's like scary even at 42 to face the same stuff. Because like, what if I can't hear Gigi's voice anymore? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So I found that to be a beautiful representation and also a devastating one. Yeah. It's also like, it's exactly that, you know, starting over is, you know, obviously this is like a coming of age film about starting over when you're young. But it's also like that feeling of starting over and that kind of coming of age feeling. I feel like we have those moments throughout life like repeatedly, it doesn't just happen when you like are like 18, after you're like your first heartbreak, it doesn't just happen after the first time you get fired from a job. Like that kind of feeling of having to start over and letting go of like an identity that really like, you know, some people like really hold on to particular identities as like a formative thing where it's like all of my value as a person comes from this identity for Kiki. It's like all her value comes from her ability to fly her ability to like be a witch. And so when you don't have that thing anymore, or it's not as easily accessible to you, then what else is there? And then you kind of have to develop and grow like from that point. And it is really, really scary. And it's like starting over happens repeatedly throughout our lives. And it just, not that it gets easier, but it's like you kind of just develop over time more skills to deal with it, different members of your community that you can lean on, again, more hobbies that you can kind of also lean into. But like the idea of holding on to one particular identity I have found in my life, that that's been the thing where like, if you hold onto it too tightly, the universe will find a way for you to like shake that loose and force you to grow beyond that point. Yeah, yeah, totally. Often the fear comes from being like, I know that there's a transition coming and I don't know how ready I am for it. But it's important to remember that the transition is going to happen with or without your participation. So, you know, it's like, it's best to maybe lean in to whatever extent you can. And you know, and then the times where I was, and this has been historically the case, but the more recent times where I was like, well, I don't want to do the thing because I am anticipating the grief that's going to come with it. To the point of, you know, our ursel is in the woods. You know, I have great friends who are like, you're going to be fine. And if it's going to be difficult or whatever you can call us. So like that's a, it's like really nice just seeing like Kiki establish the community that is going to be there for her. And speaking of which, her business shuts down under the weight of burnout is 13 year olds business shutters under the weight of burnout. And she is contacted by a former customer, Ms. Herring Pie herself, who was like, I have this delivery. I'm hoping that you can do it presents the delivery opportunity. And it is clear that the delivery is a cake of a witch on a cake. It's cute as heck. And she's like, can you deliver this to who is ultimately Kiki? I really love this setup. And she's like, I let her know that I appreciate her for doing this thing that she did for me. And might maybe also let me know her birthday so I can send her birthday gifts. So sweet. Really, was dealing with it when this happened. And then Kiki's like realizes what's happening. And I was like, of course I'll do it. Let me know. I hope the old lady lets me know her birthday so I can do the same. Can I also just point out the first time I watched the movie, there was a part of me that's like, does the old woman have Alzheimer's? I was genuinely concerned. I was like, that's a fair question. Cause like, you know, also like the way that they draw this old woman, her eyes are kind of like clouded over. I was like, does she not know that Kiki's standing right in front? That's such a fair, like if you don't know that it's a device and she's doing a bit, it is such a fair question. Oh my God, I never thought about that. But so fair. Yeah. I got like really concerned. And then as the movie just like kept on happening, I was like, oh, never mind. Thank God. You're like, no, this is one of the happy ones. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, this movie is about to take a very dark turn. And honestly, the when we first saw the movie, when we were in theaters, I turned to my partner and I was like, does anyone die in this movie? And he was like, no, shockingly, no one dies. It's really great. Although we get close. I do think people die. I'm going to say I do think people die in this movie, but we don't. We just don't see it on screen. Yeah. Earlier we hear like a passing, again, the like the relationship with time is fascinating because like before she goes on this delivery, I think we hear some tell of the fact that there is a disaster unfolding. Yeah. And then she's at the house of the older lady customer and they turn on the news and they see that ultimately there's a blimp disaster. The blimp is going down. We see it on screen and it like King Kong or it's like a absolute disaster coming for like a big group of people, all the people are running away. And on the screen, Kiki through the magic of live television, Kiki sees that that Tombo has been hoisted up on a rope belonging to the blimp is like hanging on for his dear life along with some cops. The cops fall off the rope and into a pool, which is funny. Useless. And Tombo is just presumably hanging on this rope for at least an hour based on the physics of the movie. Yeah. Crazy. Like the fact that like he didn't slip really like he was just hanging on at one point. He's hanging on by like one hand off of this rope while they're flying around town. I was like, man, this is like, first of all, the core strength, the upper body strength amazing. And then on top of it, it's like the blimp keeps crashing into buildings. There's so much property destruction. I'm like, he's not jostled at all. I'm like, well, kind of. But like, yeah, the whole time I was so stressed. I was like, any other movie that's a dead boy. That's just a dead child. Tombo fortunately has the core strength of a 13 year old boy. So he's, he's in good shape. I haven't known that core strength for at least 30 years. He's doing all right. So he, she goes to go save him. She gets a broom from a shop owner who's like, I don't want to give you my broom. And it's, there's a funny payoff to that after she gets the room goes in. Now this is her moment. Gonna find new purpose, as Ursula told her to regain her powers. And now she has new purpose, which is saving Tombo. Yeah. And she is able to be a witch again. And she as a result of saving Tombo, getting her powers back, she restarts the service, which is really great. She's probably still running it today. I age whatever 55 or whatever she'd be in this movie for this in the movie. No, I think actually Kiki and I are the same. No, she would be more than 77. Our girls, Gen X, that's great. Nice. And she writes home saying that she's happy, very, very sweet. And I loved it. I loved it so much. Yeah. It's a beautiful movie about like community care, how to deal with artistic burnout and just like the journey of being an artist. And I think, especially right now in like, you know, we can get into it, but like, you know, like in the time of generative AI, I think it's really valuable for artists to support each other. I think it's really valuable to encourage people making things with their hands and developing, you know, refining old skills, developing new skills. You know, a lot of my friends and I have been talking about like neuroplasticity and the idea of like, if you don't use it, you lose it and how everyone needs to stop outsourcing their creativity to AI. And also all these tech pros who are telling us that art doesn't matter and that it's not important. If it wasn't important, they wouldn't be trying so hard to steal everything all the time. You know, Right. Actively rigging, legally, the rigging the system. And like, I mean, I don't know, I'm very cynical about the state of things under all automation, everything, because, you know, it would be one thing if any one of our systems weren't constantly dismantled all the time in order to redistribute wealth towards wealthy people. Like some people are living under the fantasy of like universal basic income. Like that's not, I'm not going to say like that's, like that's never going to happen. But based on my whole life, I've never seen a system that gets more socialized. I see a system that gets more dismantled against socialization. Totally. And so I think that that's all fine and good or whatever. But like the system that I live in isn't one where people who lose jobs due to automation get taken care of in any way. And so I have cynicism about that. But where I do have optimism is I think everyone I know or am close with has some job in the creative arts. And obviously there's a lot of shitty stuff happening in there. But as a result of having a job in the creative arts, their job is conveying the experience of being human to other humans. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that like what we do see, it's like for however many like shitty, generative AI generated like clips of whatever, like whatever sort of whatever people are making right now, these like out of context clips that look like uncanny valley. It's like the cast of your favorite movie from the 80s, like taking off a mask and showing their age now or like just like this silly shit. No one is demanding it as far as I can tell. Like years into this stuff, like gaining sort of popularity and gaining forced popularity, I don't see people going like, give me more. Like what I see resonating with people is like when they get their hands on media that conveys a human experience, they're like, I actually am increasingly craving this because of what is being shoved down our throats. Yeah, absolutely. I think especially as artists, you know, it's it goes back to that question that Ursula was asking Kiki about like what is like the purpose behind what you're doing. And I think for artists, it's kind of our, I don't want to say responsibility, but like in order to like, in my opinion, to make art, you have to be interested in sharing your perspective of how you see the world with other people. And I think it's been really important to see art that's made by human hands. I think it's really important to acknowledge the fact that like, even the astronauts on Artemis 2 that like took all these beautiful photos of the moon, they took photography lessons so that they could better photograph what they were seeing in space. So they could have language for what they were seeing in space. And I think like, as more of the world becomes more like digitized in this way, it's going to be way more important to see things that are like made by human hands. And I think it's really important for everyone to know that creativity is accessible to you at any time. And it doesn't have to be like a thing where like, you have to be a perfectionist about it, and you're having to make these like giant paintings or murals or whatever, you can like scrapbook, you can like junk journal, you can like do like, you can you can sew beads onto your clothes, you know, you can cook food, like whatever it whatever it is, whatever thing that makes you feel creative that helps you get into a flow state. I think like that is kind of where we see the best parts of humanity is like when we're all kind of connecting through these relatable things. And then also just like making things and reminding ourselves that we are capable of making things. I feel like as someone who has recently got back into painting and stuff, just even having the opportunity to make stuff with my hands and not be on my phone. Sure. What a treat. Sure, absolutely. I agree. And like this is, I do think that like one of the biggest questions of this moment is like, what is the purpose of this? And increasingly, we are really confronted with there is none. Like, what is the purpose? It's to create technologies that people don't need to redistribute wealth upwards. And it's always been that, but it is now hyper that in a way that is like, so stomach turning and creates such an ugly and banal aesthetic reality. Totally. That I do think like we're increasingly having a moment of people going like, what the fuck? Like, and what do I care about? And what do I want more of in my life? And I think that that is, yeah, it's seeing that confrontation, which is inspiring people to wonder like what it is they actually find purpose in, I think is that gives me some hope. Yeah. And I think also, you know, if you want to be a commercial artist and you want to make art for the money, just be honest with yourself about that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it is what it is. We have to pay our bills. But at the end of the day, I think there is a difference between making commercial art and art that is creatively fulfilling and that actually feeds the soul. You know, and I think it's always important to nurture the part of you that feeds the soul because that's like the shared humanity that we all kind of like live in, you know? Yeah, no, I agree entirely. Do you have any other thoughts you want to say about the movie before we talk about who it's daddy is? I think the only part that we missed about the movie was like when Kiki went to Ursula's gay art cabin. Yeah. She had a painting that she made of Kiki. Oh, yeah. And it was like her flying. She's like kind of like a Pegasus version of herself with like the horse with the wings. And then she's like flying along with the crows. Oh, it's so nice. And it's like a moment where Kiki kind of stops and she sees, oh, like this is how this other artist like sees me and like my ability to fly is like this amazing like mythical thing. And the fact that, you know, she doesn't necessarily believe in herself. When she sees that painting, she's able to kind of recontextualize what her ability is and what she can do, like what that means to other people. And I think especially like as artists too, there can sometimes be the feeling of like, oh, like what if people only like me because of like what I can do for them or what I offer like the art that I make. But at the end of the day, it's like, you know, people connect with you as an artist because of like the perspective you have to offer. And the things that you want to show people. And so I just thought it was like a really nice moment where Kiki was able to kind of like slow down and sort of see and like talk to again, like speaking to like another elder about their experience as an artist and what it meant to them to also like recontextualize their desire for painting. And yeah, I just think that like it's a great movie about a lot of things. And it made me really excited to like make art and also get back into other hobbies and not be so hard on myself when it comes to like feeling burnt out and needing to take time to rest. I love that scene that you're talking about for all of the reasons that you just said. And I also love and I'm sure someone can speak to us about these choices. But the art in the scene is different from the art in the movie. Totally. Yeah. Absolutely. Which I think is really a really interesting choice. Like it feels like another fabric all together. It's another frame of reference all together in the movie. And like, you know, usually if you see art on the wall and like an animated feature, it's like would usually be the same kind of art that the aesthetic of the movies made out of. But like this feels like really tactile. It feels like kind of surreal. Yeah. And I love that kind of van Gogh a little bit too, to be honest, like the brushstrokes and stuff. I also feel like a lot of the time in movies like this, it might kind of some movies might showcase maybe like a realism piece of art, like one that's like more easily readable and accessible to the viewer. But I think by making the piece more abstract, more illustrative, very much like the you can see the hand of the artist in the actual painting. I think it's also making a point there where it's like a person made this with their hands and it took them a long, long time. And it might not even be done yet because, you know, she still says that there's more work to be done on it. But, you know, it's like the joy of creation. And yeah, again, like just being a person and making things with their hands. It's like, what an incredible skill to have. And then also that you can develop to everyone out there who thinks that they can't draw. You just haven't practiced. I promise you can if you just try. These are all great reminders. So I have a question for you. We know that Kiki's dad has spent so much time getting camping gear ready. He's put it all together. He's put it on top of the car. He's ready to show up for camping. And then he learns that he's not going to see his daughter for a year. That's so rough. Yeah. He's like, I'm ready to go camping. I've been looking forward to this all year. Look at all the gear. And then not for it. And then that's not going to happen. He doesn't say any of that. That's just the story I reverse engineered for that poor man. Who in your view is the daddy of Kiki's delivery service? Oh boy. The thing is too, I thought about this and then I never came to an actual conclusion. I think that right now I would say maybe Ursula. I kind of flip flop between Ursula and then Osono. Osono because she kind of takes Kiki in and then gives her a home and employment and helps her launch her business. But I think Ursula also kind of is the daddy because she is the one that actually helps Kiki, opens a conversation with her about what burnout means, how to rest and recover from it. And also again, just offering alternative perspectives. And then also, isn't it such a dad thing to just have a cabin in the woods? Yeah, for sure. Just to live off the grid. You and your crows. God, I can't agree enough. This character is the... I've talked about them on the show before, but when I was a kid, there were kids who were two or three years older than me in my high school who introduced me to photograph underground comics. I learned things by way of like... Oh, cool. You know, sort of like Xerox stuff, who are that, who are the ones who go to their house and watch Twin Peaks on laser disc. That's who Ursula is in this. And they were all 50 to 100% gay. Absolutely. The best people always are. Come on. Come on. It's so funny how you, I feel like... I think it was just defined by the time and what was quote okay and what was not incredibly scary in a rural school. But I knew so many people who were broadly queer. I didn't know many people who were solidly gay. And I think for a lot of people, it was the safer place to be. And eventually that would happen. But based on my friend group at the time, I was like, I'm pretty sure everyone's at least half gay. Yeah. It's like that meme with the Spider-Man where they're all pointing at each other and you're like, hold on a second. I see myself in you and I see myself in you. Totally. I think half gay people love Ivan Brunetti and Twin Peaks on laser disc. And we all have ADHD and we're all time blind. It's really true. Ursula's my daddy. I agree. I love her. I'd love to know what she's up to these days. I hope everything's going great. Yeah. She would be probably in her 60s by now. So she's probably being like a 60 year old forest artist painter who probably also talks to other birds other than just crows by now, I would assume. She's expanded her stable. Yeah. Thank you so much, Forever Never Amen, for doing this. You're one of my favorite people to talk to and I'm so glad you brought this movie. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Like honestly, the second I watched this movie about halfway through the movie, I was like, oh, I need to bring this. I need to bring this to you because I feel like it would be like such a good conversation. And I thought that you would really, really enjoy the movie and I'm happy to bring you more animated movies, especially like, again, the fact that this one is like a hand drawn animated movie. And I got to see it on like the biggest screen possible was really, really, really impactful. And so I think like, you know, continue to support art made by humans, continue to support the humanities. You can't have STEM without humanities, etc. etc. So Hi everybody, that's it for this week's episode of You Are Good, a feelings podcast about movies. Thank you so much for listening. Thanks to Olivia Sang for joining us. Thanks to Miranda Zickler for producing and editing this episode. Thanks to Fresh Lash for providing the beats that make our episodes sound so sweet. Thanks to you for listening to the episode. Thanks to y'all who support us on Patreon and Apple Podcast subscriptions. You know, you get those bonus episodes, you get extended cuts, you get other odds and ends, apparently, like your conversations about television. And you help make this thing happen. So thanks for supporting us over there. Don't forget that you, my friend, are good. We will talk with y'all next week.