121 | Part 10: Celebrating Coach Dick Tomey’s Legacy of Pioneering Athletic Trainers with Magie Lacambra

This is Becoming Undone. So it was 1999. I was a grad assistant athletic trainer in Tucson, Arizona. At the time I was working with the Wildcat gymnastics team. But our athletic training room for all the athletes was housed deep within the bowels of the McKeough Memorial Center. And all the athletes went there for their pre-practice treatments, taping, rehab, everything else they might need before or after practices and games. And when you've got a common space like that for everybody, it becomes kind of like a hub of sorts. At the time, our facility had six certified athletic trainers, full-time, and five graduate assistants. Now, if you're not familiar, a grad assistant is certified, has a degree, but they're working toward another degree so that they'll be qualified to serve as a full-time in the future. When I first started, there were two GAs who were coming back for their second year, who shared an office cubicle on one end of the facility. Cindy Machaud was softball and Lisa McDonald, which I can feel. And then there were the three guys, Aaron Barnett with football, Mitch Doyle with volleyball, and me with gymnastics. It was fine, but we decided that as GAs the next year, we wanted a shared space where we could all be together. We were all making around 12 grand a year, routinely clocking 50 to 60 hours per week, so we proposed a change. We would take one of the removable dividers out of the series of cubicles, slide all the full-time staff together, and then create a big space for all the GAs. We called it the Hugicle. A lot of shenanigans went down in the Hugicle. Mitch Doyle liked to sneak 15-pound cuff weights into my med kit before road trips. Once I'd be on the road wondering why my shoulder hurt and my freaking kit was so heavy, I'd discover the quote-unquote gifts he left for me. You got me, Mitch. Where there was a time we decided to bring a variety of food and have kind of a makeshift, hobo style, Thanksgiving potluck just for the GAs. But without a doubt, the worst was Napster. Now, we'd been explicitly told by our boss, the director of sports medicine, not to load the music sharing software on our tired old single-page desktop computer, but we were young and we were cool. We wanted songs in the Hugicle. Surely it'd be fine. He probably wasn't even technologically savvy enough to know if we'd installed it. Till that same boss soon discovered that we disobeyed. Now, I can't remember if everybody else did, but I know for sure I got a stern talking to. Even though our medical records at the time were on pen and paper, he said we were exposing the university property to the risk of corruption. I mean, he wasn't wrong, but Napster wasn't Lime Wire, right? It wasn't a guarantee that our computer would come down with some sort of terminal electronic STD that would result in us needing a new one. But you know, honestly, if it did, as GAs, we had hands down the crappiest computer in the whole place. So I thought getting a new one really wasn't a threat at all. It wasn't the worst thing I could think of. But yeah, I was 24 years old. Married, working my first job. And my boss chewed me good because of the risk posed by a virus, a computer virus. But still, that coach Dick Tommy's memorial service in 2019, speaker after speaker, shared stories, not about football victories, but about love. Dino Babers, former player and assistant under Tommy, former guest on this show, captured best when he said, Before Dick told me we'd go to family. I'm talking about my family now. We'd go to family gatherings. We didn't kiss. We didn't say I love you. After Dick told me, I can't think of a gathering. We don't do that. And his impact is, oh, you're just talking about your brothers and no, I'm talking about my brothers and sisters, my nieces and nephews. It's throughout the family. That's Dick. Dick is a virus. Nancy, he's a virus. He's the virus. You can't get out of your computer. Now you guys got me on it. I'm hit. That's the best word for him in a good term is like, whoa, whoa, where'd this come from? You brush up against Dick. Tommy. I'm going to use this word because there's a lot of things going on in the United States. I'm going to use this word. He leaves a residue on him. He leaves a stain. And you're like, whoa, what did I brush up against? And he's with you forever more after that. You know, that's kind of a funny way to describe someone so beloved, but it's fitting. Coach told me he had a way of infecting people with his warmth, his belief in them, and his relentless love. He didn't phone calls with love you any minute. He made grown men hug and say it back. He changed how people led, how they coached, how they lived. That virus spread far beyond the field. It reached families, locker rooms, even the athletic training room. Today, we'll hear from someone who caught it early and never let it go. Sadly, we lost coach. Tell me to cancer in 2019, but lately I found myself thinking about him more and more. And as I've grown in my own leadership, I keep asking myself, I can lead like he did. I'm going to love like he did. What was his secret? What made people follow him so fiercely? Carry his lessons decades after they took off the pads or shut the office door for the last time, because in a profession where wins and losses often scream the loudest, Dick told me it was different. He built something far more lasting relationships. And those questions, they haven't let me go. So started asking, started listening, started chasing down the people who knew him best. Players, staff, family to unpack what made him special. To trace his path, to learn what made his leadership so timeless. From Indiana to Hawaii to Tucson to San Jose, even in retirement, he never really stopped coaching, mentoring, loving people. This journey now on episode 10 has helped me rediscover a legend and maybe hopefully become a better leader myself. That's exactly what coach Dick Tomi did. He built people. He also opened doors. Many don't know it, but Dick Tomi was one of the first coaches to open his locker room to women head athletic trainers. First to Sue Hillman and later Maggie Lacombra. Today, we'll continue our deep dive into the life, lessons and legacy of coach Dick Tomi with a conversation with Maggie, where she shares what it was like to be a member on his staff during a time of changing opportunities for women in college bro sports. We tuned in to becoming undone. And this, this is part 10 of the life, lessons and legacy of coach Dick Tomi, a Toby Brooks passion project. Becoming undone is a podcast for those who dare bravely risk mightily and grow relentlessly. Join me Toby Brooks as I invite a new guest each week where we can examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. And if you've been following along for the past, oh, I don't know. I guess we're on nine episodes deep. We've been taking a deep dive on the life, the lessons and the legacy of late coach Dick Tomi joining me today is a mentor, a friend, now team sport manager for Gatorade and Gatorade Sports Marketing. Maggie Lacombra, Maggie, thank you so much for joining me. I'll be, it is a sincere pleasure and an honor to be here with you today. And just feel like it's, it's a, it's a pretty, pretty nice thing to be able to talk about coach Tommy. So thank you. Yeah. Well, I will go ahead and plant this seed. I tapped you for, it was part of my MBA. I had you interview for a real brief kind of four parter with some other folks and you were gracious enough to do that. Now you're tapping in for this. I really want to hear your specific story. So I'm going to go ahead and plant that seed and say, we're going to circle back and we're going to hear your story on becoming and done. But today the focus is on Dick. Tell me, so tell me about how you first met coach at Arizona, maybe some of your background that led you to Tucson when you were at, as you famously said, that other institution. Yeah. Yeah, it is, it is pretty interesting that I was, I was at Arizona State and I, I did go to grad school at ASU and then I was hired full time in the athletic department. So I was on the opposite side of the field of coach told me without knowing anything about him for a little bit, although I was not the football athletic trainer at ASU, but, you know, works games to assist. So when I came to the U of A in 94, Suha Menhead hired me to work women's basketball and went through the basketball season. I, you know, did not meet coach told me until there and, you know, because you may recall coach told me like to roam at Kale center and he roamed around a lot and sometimes looking for things to eat or snacks or what have you, but he would roll through the training room. And that's how I met him. First time was him roaming through the training room. And when I first came in in August, I believe it was because it was right before training camp was starting. So that was the first time. And it was just as a kind of as a, as a passing by, Hey, this is our new, new staff member, you know, going to work women's basketball. And he was a champion of everybody in that building. So he was very, very warm at that time. Then my probably next or most official time meeting him was during spring of, it would have been of spring of 95 because I started in 94 there. And Sue called me in her office and said, Hey, it's spring football. It's about to start. She had some things going on, some projects and wanted to know if I could cover spring football for her while she stayed inside. So that's, that's interesting. Uh, but heck, I'll do it. Right. Absolutely. Any opportunity and, and she was a leader, so I didn't question that. So then I got reintroduced to coach told me and he knew who I was already. And started working as spring football. And I thought that, that was it. That was going to be spring football. And I go back and work women's basketball. And at the time women's soccer, actually, too, I was supervising women's soccer because it was a club sport that was going to become an intercollegiate sport. And that spring football coverage turned into a full time, full time gig afterwards. When Sue let us know that she was going to be going to Kcom and Phoenix back then. What is now still AT still now is Cricksville College of osteopathic medicine. For the uninitiated, I think you need some context here. Let's start with what it is. According to the National Athletic Trainers Association, athletic training is a health care profession that focuses on the prevention, assessment, diagnosis, treatment and rehab of injuries and medical conditions, especially those related to sports and physical activity. It's considered an allied health profession that's recognized by the American Medical Association. To become a certified athletic trainer today in 2025 requires a master's degree. You have to pass a rigorous national certification exam. In most states, there are also licensure requirements. Currently, AT is one of the fastest growing fields in all of health care, expected to grow at a rate of almost 20 percent over the next decade. Today, there are close to 60,000 certified athletic trainers working in all kinds of practice settings, even from junior high and high school settings to college, pros, military, industrial and points in between. One source I've found says approximately 48 percent of all ATs are women, but another noted that in 2021, 56 percent of an ATM membership were women. Even more recent data suggests that women account for 60 percent of all in ATA student memberships. So we're certainly seeing it trend in that direction. Today, women work in all types of practice settings, including as head athletic trainers in college football. However, in 1995, such was exceptionally rare. Well, the N.A.T.A. was founded in 1950. It wasn't until 1966 that the first woman joined Dorothy Dot Cohen. Between 66 and 72, there were only eight women recorded as members. It would be 22 years after the founding of the N.A.T.A. before K.Coby became the first woman to pass the certification exam in 1972. And opportunities in major college sports didn't begin to come around for at least another decade or two. The doctoral dissertation published in 2012 by Joanne Garant outlined just how difficult it was in those early years for women to break into what was commonly known as a good old boys club. Administrators, coaches, even other athletic trainers commonly complained that women had no place in men's locker rooms, as would be required for an athletic trainer. Never mind other female health care providers like nurses and even doctors at the time who somehow could manage to remain professional. I'm using the air quotes kind of thing here. While women at somehow couldn't coach. Tommy was different. He played a key role in advancing the career of one of the first ever female head athletic trainers of a division one football program. When Sue Hillman took over, Sue took over in 82. Wildcat athletic director for women at the time, Dr. Mary Robie was key in the move. And when coach told me came along in 86, 87, Hillman eventually became as best I can tell the first female head AT of a division one football program. She'd later go on to be the first female AT in the NFL when she took a spot as a seasonal intern with the Pittsburgh Steelers in 1997. Today she's still working in pro football with the UFLs, Michigan Panthers. But in 1995, she was opening the door for Maggie to be one of the first side note. I also happened to work under one of the other first few and on her who was at UTEP. I tried to get Sue on the podcast, but the timing didn't work out. As she was deep in the UFL season when we started, but at any rate, handing the reins of a D1 football team over to any young professional for spring ball was a huge deal. The fact that Maggie was a woman might have been an issue for most coaches at the time, but not coach. Tommy, they already met while he'd been foraging for snacks in the training room and not long after they'd be working together day in and day out with Maggie in charge of all aspects of health care for coaches, wildcat teams, until she would eventually leave the program in 1999, but not quite yet. So that's how it started. That's incredible. I mean, the thought of going there and certainly nothing wrong with women's basketball, there's still not, but football, especially in that era was the marquee assignment for an athletic trainer. And typically you had years of experience and a deep network. And we'll kind of get into the fact that a woman working division one football in 1994 was few and far between. Those are true ground-breaking pioneers in the area. And Sue certainly deserves a ton of credit for it. And I've got her on my list to interview, but she's still doing it. She is with the UFL and I didn't get to her in time. She said, I'm in season, maybe circle back to me. But knowing that you went there to cover women's basketball, and then you had a leader who was a secure enough to allow you to fill in her stead. No worries about, you know, you coming in and stealing thunder. But but also just the fact that a woman in that position at that time was allowed to do that. How did that really resonate with you over your initial thoughts and reactions to being in that space, in that place at that time? My initial reaction was, are you really serious about this? Because again, I'm a newbie, right? I'm the new staff member there. And and I had such and still have such respect for Sue as, yes, a pioneer in what she was doing, not just in athletic training, but man, the her. I think Sue has forgotten more and animated than I've ever known in my life just because, you know, she's so good at that. And so the the bar, like how can I meet that bar that she has set? But she instilled confidence in me and that she's a leader. She's breaking ground in this area of of a very male dominant setting. And also Coach Tomi. I mean, I give them both huge props, right? Because me working football there would not have happened without Sue and Coach Tomi's blessing and support. So both of them equally very, I think, open minded into just putting the right person in the right place to do to do a good job. And so that's that's what I felt. And Sue's confidence to put me into that position. And then Coach Tomi's confidence in having me join his team based off of Sue's recommendation was an unbelievable boost of confidence. But still, mind you, I was still terrified. I'm like, I'd better live up to this expectation. But yeah, it was there weren't too many. There weren't too many back in the day doing that. And the fact that Coach Tomi obviously, Sue set the groundwork and open the doors. And then Coach Tomi just kept those doors open. And when he introduced me to the team, he was it was that is this is this is Maggie, our new athletic trainer, and it was not, you know, any different or any stipulations going with it. It was, you know, respect her like your respect to everybody else on the staff. Like she's a member of our staff. And I think that was already set before, you know, I stepped into that role and he just continued it. And it was it was a it was a much easier transition probably than than in other places because of him. Yeah, I've been so impressed. I had Mike Flores on as a guest earlier. He just is a polo. I think Coach's background being a Midwest guy going to UCLA first and into the islands. I mean, he worked with people from all different walks of life, all different cultures. And I think he was masterful in his ability not just to work with people from different cultures, but to draw on those strengths. And this is not a conversation you and I have ever had. So first, I have to say that with that kind of background with Coach Tomi, I think Coach Tomi is a luck was a lover of people, right? He didn't care race, sex, age, anything. It was just he loved people and loved interacting with people. And so he embraced cultures, he embraced language, he embraced everything. And and it's funny because he one time in a staff meeting and I can't remember. I can't remember the truth thing of what it was, but there was somebody else in the in the in the staff meeting. So it required an introduction and he introduced me as Maggie Garcia. And and then like it didn't like he didn't think of anything. And then somebody like like, hey, that's not it's her last name is not Garcia. Right. So he obviously knew that I was of of a Hispanic descent. So Mexican mother, Spanish father, I was born in Mexico. I came to the US at the age of five. And and he just he embraced that though. It was funny and Maggie Garcia was I think she worked in a finance department at at Arizona. So there was Maggie Garcia, but he just did this. And to this day, I guarantee you if I call, I call Nancy. OK, Nancy King, Cada, that she would laugh and call me Maggie Garcia because it made coach. If he was so embarrassed, but he laughed so much about it at that time, kind of just, hey, it's a cultural thing. It doesn't it doesn't matter. And I never took any offense to it. I thought it was hilarious. But but yeah, so that's my background. Mexican mother, Spanish father, Mexican descent. Yeah. And so with with that background, I mean, we talk about pioneers in groundbreaking positions and how Sue being one of the first division one football athletic trainers and I don't know, I've never done the research into that depth, but I have to assume that you are a pioneer, both on the ethnic side and on the gender side, where a Mexican American woman in that role was was highly unusual. I mean, in the span of my career, I've seen the the percentage of certified athletic trainers flip to being predominantly female. And so these are these are stories I don't think students today would would even be able to recognize the workplaces that many of our predecessors had to endure. And whether that's sexism, whether that's racism, whatever. And it all comes from the pioneering work of people like yourself, people like Sue. But I also recognize that there's also a coach who is not just willing for that to happen, but wanted that to happen. He wanted a diverse culture. I think of the way he he works with and loved our poly players. Like, oh, it was so culturally rich. And I didn't expect it going to Tucson. I expected the Hispanic influence in Tucson, but the Polly influence with the football program in particular was remarkable. And especially like seemed like our old line. There was just I remember ordering knee braces that had like a special prints that were reflected in the culture. I mean, that's that's what that's what was cultivated there. What were your initial impressions of Coach Tomi when you did step into that role as a full time staff meter, as a leader, as a person? It was welcoming. Hey, he was welcoming from the minute the minute it happened, right? It was, hey, you're a member of our staff. These are our staff meeting times. You know, you're going to come to the staff meetings. He set the expectations of what I was going to do at the staff meetings, what I was going to do in terms of practice, travel and that sort of thing. But there he lined out what what decisions I could make as far as like who traveled staff, that sort of thing. But otherwise, it's hey, this is our staff, you're a part of our staff and you're going to be a welcome member of it. An unequal member of it. There was there was nothing ever any way that he made it feeling different. Again, like I said, he was a he was a people lover and he embraced people for how they were. He didn't want to change anybody, right? And you know, when you're working with the team, when you're working with athletics, there are people very different personalities on one team. And how do you make all that work? And you think of the people that that we all have to work with as athletic trainers and how you approach maybe an injury or rehab is that not everybody's the same and you can't approach everybody the same. And coach told me knew that and that's how we approach things. We all have seen and heard the man hugs that he gave and the emotion and the crying and the it was just it was special. It was I mean, it was very, very special where whether it was, you know, you're a camp coach, he's working a hundred hours a day to, you know, back during the season and it's his welcoming of just people. I don't think he saw me any different than he saw anybody else on the staff. Is that, hey, you're a member of the staff, you have a responsibility and we're all going to treat you. We're going to treat you equal that way. And and quite frankly, the players did the same. The players were a reflection of him. There was no, there was one small incident way at the beginning. One player thought he was going to make a funny joke and his teammates heard it and they shut it down immediately and it never happened again. And that was just again, the. I think the reflection of him and how he set the standard for how people should be treated. Yeah, that was. So I'm tremendously grateful because to your point of who was doing it at that time. Yeah, Suha Mn, we early opened the doors and she was probably the first of two people to do it in the in the country. And there were still very, very few when when I stepped into that role. But I quite frankly, I tried not to think of the enormity of it at that time because that was that was terrifying. OK, if I thought about it quite frankly, then that was terrifying. So for me, it was just, hey, I'm an athletic trainer. I have a job, I have a role. This is my responsibility and I'm going to do it. And some people have a little bit of a different approach. I probably was a little, let's just call it a little bit more on the stricter side than I probably would have liked to have been. And I just felt like I I needed to have certain things buttoned up in order for things to be able to be for me to be able to be successful and not lose sight of what I needed to do. But absolutely. And I don't think it was fair, but I certainly saw for you, it wasn't fair that you had to do it better than a guy would have had to do it. You had to be cleaner in that era. Very little margin for error because people, whether it Arizona or probably not, but elsewhere would would gladly point to a failure of a female in that position and say, this is why we shouldn't have women in the locker room. And so there was a scrutiny with that. And there was a that no doubt that was a heavy load to bear, but I always appreciated it. And I made light of it in my last episode about how I think it's been a tough and and no nonsense you were, but you had to be. Yeah. You know, at the time I felt like I had to be and maybe I did. I mean, looking back, I wish there's times when I wish I I would have been less, less strict, less, what have you, you know, and have had enjoyed the process more. But I was afraid of that. I was I was afraid of the judgment that was happening. And I don't think people did this on purpose by any means. But I remember multiple times, you know, you travel, you go, you go to a team and the medical staffs meet pregame in the middle of the field or on the sideline and what have you introduced each other and what have you. Nobody they're like, who's she? Right. Until literally one of our docs had to say, hey, this is this is our athletic trainer. And then they still they would do a double taken because I mean, I have to think back of who we played that would have had another female across the field as well. You know, maybe like Don at Utah. I mean, so other than that, it was a very there's there's a very male oriented setting. And again, I don't I don't blame anybody. That was just the way it was. And so to have a female there, it was very unusual. And even going into hotels, checking into hotels on the road, and people thought I was like the nurse, OK, or I was like the travel coordinator or something. They never thought I was the position that I was in. And it was but you just I laughed a lot about those things because like, yeah, who was doing it? And so the fact that I was able to do it, it was a privilege to me. I'm like, you know what, this is an amazing honor and a privilege. And I best not mess it up. Yeah. Well, you did a tremendous job. I so appreciate the just the excellence in your work and the just the model you were for me as a professional female or not. Just your work was exemplary. I saw student athletes would stream in and they they would go straight to you. They knew where to go to get help. And I think at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. Again, we're talking with Maggula Comrade, a former football athletic trainer at the University of Arizona. We're going to switch gears a little bit. Coach Tommy was known for being a tough coach. He was no nonsense. I can remember one particular game where we underperformed that next practice. It's a lot of rolling. He was not going to let his players get away with less than he thought was their best. And sometimes that can intersect with what we're trying to do as a medical staff. You see your role as a health care provider intersecting or perhaps colliding with his approach to that tough, that grit, that player development. It's an interesting balance, right? Because I think no matter no matter what what sport you're working or who you're doing it with, that there there has to be that understanding of what everybody's role is and his role was to motivate, to educate, to coach, to discipline, to do all those things. And my role was to keep the team healthy and abide by the healthy standards. And so the one thing that one of the many, I think, agreements that we had is that he's going to coach and I'm going to do my job and we're going to we're going to communicate. And so if I ever felt that something was in danger or if it was out of maybe alignment with the with the best interests of the student athlete from a safety perspective, I would share that with him. Now, when somebody's rolling and they're puking because they're rolling, that's that's a matter of, hey, that that's that's consequences, right? Was it going to put somebody in jeopardy at that time? You know, I didn't think so, but there there were consequences. Now, obviously, you know, in Tucson, there are monsoons. There are beautiful monsoons that bring a lot of lightning. And so like that, it's a player safety. It was my job to with very different tools that they're available now is try to see where those storms are and let coach know when it was time to vacate the field, because it was no matter what was happening, it was a safety issue. And so he never questioned that. He never questioned whether an athlete could practice or not practice because of injury or rehab or what have you. He was interested in like, hey, what's the best thing for the athlete? And we'll do what we can around it and just make sure that they're here, that we want them here, at least taking mental reps and doing what they can out here. And we'll go from there. And so it was a matter of, I think, meeting in the middle. He's doing what he needs to do. I'm doing what I need to do with the athlete and we're moving in the same direction. Yeah. So it was a different era. And certainly in your travels today, I mean, you're still actively involved. You communicate regularly, if not daily with Power 4 or D1 programs. You know what it's all about. But in that era, you could build a team over the course of years. It wasn't a portal dominated era. This was a coach who famously would bring in walk on guys. Talk to Brad Brennan on this show before. Bear Baker. I mean, there's there is a long history. They fit for that matter of of guys that didn't have a chance really anywhere else, not just coming and being a part of the team, but being critical parts of the team. And so he was known for building that culture. From your point of view, what do you think made it so unique under Coach Tomy? He cared. He cared. Because again, I think about, I mean, there are times in staff meetings that it would come up that, you know, certain players, you know, didn't show up for class or they didn't do certain thing or they didn't go to their weight workout or they missed their, you know, their their rehab appointment, whatever it was. And Coach Tomy wouldn't get mad about that. He would not. He would look at the position coach of that player and say, Hey, coach, go find out what's going on. This sentiment right here reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from poet Walt Whitman made famous by all time favorite show or series, Ted Lasso. It's a concept I've been fighting hard with even in the past few days. I grew up in an environment I could only describe as toxically negative. Anything that didn't go our way led to anger. World-class grudge-holding. I learned from an early age that if somebody didn't do what they should or what they said they would, then they had offended you. But here we're here. Maggie described one of what I think is coach Tomy's most powerful personality traits. He was curious, not judgmental. And for a leader, there isn't much that will inspire your people more than a leader who is curious and not judgmental. Let's hear Ted explain it. You know, Rupert, guys have underestimated me my entire life. And for years, I never understood why. I used to really bother me. But then one day I was driving my little boy to school and I saw this quote by Walt Whitman. It was painted on the wall there and said, be curious, not judgmental. I like that. So I get back in my car and I'm driving to work and all of a sudden it hits me. All them fellas that used to belittle me, not a single one of them are curious. You know, they thought they had everything all figured out. And so they judged everything and they judged everyone. And I realized that they're underestimating me. Who I was had nothing to do with it. Cause if they were curious, they would ask questions. You know, questions like, have you played a lot of darts, Ted? Yeah. Which I would have answered. Yes, sir. Every Sunday afternoon at a sports bar with my father from age 10 to 16, we passed away. Barbecue sauce. It would be easy to come down like a ton of bricks on a player who wasn't doing what he needed to do to judge them without even caring about their truth. Coach was not judgmental. He was curious and he wanted his staff to be curious too. It's an idea that flies in the face of what I'd been taught. Judge first, be curious later. It's a defense mechanism against allowing people to use you or harm you. It's also kind of like scar tissue that keeps you from ever really being vulnerable enough to really, fully, truly love and serve another person. So to wall women, to Ted Lasso and to Dick, tell me my commitment, my recommitment is to do my best to change my innate reflexive tendency to judge and to purposeful curiosity, just like Maggie was able to do. Find out why this is happening. OK, we need him in the classroom. We need him at practice. We need him in the training room. We need him in the weight room. Find out what's going on. OK, and that was that's a different approach. Right. It wasn't he wasn't going to blame first without knowing what it was. He was going to care. He was going to care first and then and then take action. And it was I don't know if that approach, how that approach would be now. And to your point, with all those those young men that came there without scholarship as Wacons or, you know, blue chip players would have you. And because he cared so much, they stuck around. They developed over time. They earned a scholarship later on. And yet today's environment, wow, I I've often thought literally multiple times. How would coach told me do in today's environment of the portal and NIL and so forth? It would manage. It would it would be it would be very challenging. And I'd love to think that he would he would have created his own mold and his own way of doing things because he would care so much for the athlete that that that would supersede anything else that's going on. But but you're right, that putting the time in to develop a player and like literally sit down on the floor and talk to his parents and tell them how he's going to take care of them or how he is going to do various things. I mean, I'd play. I had players parents talk to me on the field at practice about, hey, coach told me said X, Y, Z. I was really worried about them. No, I know son called me talking about whatever it was. And I called coach told me his office and talked to him directly. So he just eased all these things. And he just he took the time to express care for them as as young men. But then became good football players. Yeah, I agree. And team members. Yeah. Absolutely. I think one of the saddest aspects of this story for me is the recognition that we are in an era where this kind of coaching becomes harder and harder to do. How can you be successful and win nine or ten games or lose your job by having the patience to develop a young man that shows up on your campus a scrawny one hundred and seventy five pound nothing and needs four or five years of development. There's just no time for that anymore. And no, I really think that as much as I would love to have this optimism that his coaching legacy can go on exactly the way it did at Arizona. I just don't think the system allows that kind of love and care for a student athlete anymore. Yes, no, it is. It's definitely a different setting. I mean, there's a very prominent, well-respected head strength ignition coach in a Power Five school, a Power Four school. And a few months ago, we were talking and he just said, Maggie said, this is different. It's like this kid, we've developed them for the last three years. Now he just left. He just left and he's going to this other school is going to reap the rewards of all the work that was done here to develop them. And now he's going to go play for them. And he understands it, right? He doesn't like it. And that's right. I think coach, show me, would do the same thing. It's like it is. It's you put in the work and you need to hopefully see the rewards of the work that you're putting in. And it is, it's a very different environment now. Yeah. Well, I showed up on campus as Arizona football was growing. And it was a good time. And I was super jealous of Aaron for getting to be that guy. But it was just good to be there during that 98 season, come off a bowl win and then head into that 98 season, culminating with that holiday bowl. And I was looking at that picture just the other day and it crossed my mind. You've got Chris McAllister hoisting the trophy. All worlds, everything, all NFL, like an exception in terms of how coach Tommy was kind of known for landing these highly regarded prospects. Oh, Chris McAllister. And then you've got Kelvin Yfon, who showed up on campus as a basketball player. And then you got Barrett, who was a walk on. And yeah, that that pinnacle moment for Arizona football is so emblematic. And I'm getting choked up just thinking about how those three guys represent kind of just how vast coach Tommy's love and care for student athletes were. Those were three guys she refused to give up on. And it led to the most successful season ever. And it still hasn't been surpassed. So talk me through that 98 season and what it was. What it was like for you to be in the inner circle. Yeah, it was a special time. It was a special time, Toby, just as you're choking up about it. Man, it brings back so many memories for me. And as difficult of those, you know, those times were, the memories are amazing. And those three young men that you mentioned, three very different walks of life, right? Three very different personalities. Yet they were brothers on that team because coach Tommy set that standard because he embraced them that way, because he created that culture that, hey, you guys, we're going to be in this together, right? We're going to be in this together. And it doesn't matter where you come from, what your background is. And the resources for the athletes, I think, are something to be commended as well, right? So you can't do it without having the help in the classroom or, man, I think of some of these young guys and what they did back then and didn't have, like didn't have financial support from home, right? They're living on that luchek and they're they're trying to make it work. And now the difference that there is now with that. But those people, staff, players, coaches, everybody involved with it. I mean, it was a family. It was a family. And the press, the the the goal of coach Tommy was it was like, you know, it's like, burn the boats, burn the boats. This is we're going to do this one at a time, one at a time, one at a time. And he just said that he says, you got to believe, believe, right? That's that's another great word that that that coach told me used a lot. But it was true. It's like if if he believes then the players are going to believe if he acted like it was going to be possible and the players are going to believe it was possible. You had to set that from somewhere and this taking that one game at a time and feeling like, hey, it's us against them. It's us against them. And even though even though those were, yes, very successful years for for Arizona football, it was still a very basketball focused department, right? I mean, Lut Olsen was doing amazing things with the men's basketball program. And it's it was still like a special thing that, hey, we're going to stick together. And I think also the environment of McHale Center back then, it was all athletes under one roof, right? Everybody intermingled. Everybody knew each other. Everybody supported each other. And so that energy of success from week to week, no matter what the sport was, it was it was just contagious. And being inside that the locker room and hearing the the speeches and hearing the the players of just what they thought from week to week. Pretty priceless. Yeah. Yeah. I had Kara Fry and Mike Meyer both on earlier and they refer to as McHale high. And I'd never heard it tough. There were little clicks and, you know, yeah. Athletes from different teams, but hang out. And it was really a cool vibe, just a different kind of dynamic. And I think that came from from the top where we as a staff got together. Everybody kind of pulling for one another. And it was I didn't realize how different that was until I went somewhere else and realized it's not this way everywhere. You know, this is that was really different. And and that was not just different. It was really, really good. And that's what I feel like time has allowed me to kind of view this experience through. Well, 98 was an inverse of 99. Going to the season of 98 on ranked end up fourth in the country. 99 we go in ranked fourth in the country end unranked and famously my missed bowl opportunities through what 99 was like, because that ended up being your last season as a clinician working with college football. What was that season like? And what if any role did coach tell me play in counseling you as you looked at some other opportunities? That was a rough year in more ways than one. Right. Yeah. So. Is that when we started at Penn State and. Hmm. Pickoff return for 98 yards in LeVar Earrington and like, oh, my gosh, what are we doing? Yeah. So yeah, that was that was almost like the looking back. It was almost like a a a a preface of what the year was going to be like. And without knowing it, right? Without knowing it into nobody's nobody's fault, nothing. It just things did not work out or pan out the way I think any of us had wanted or had planned for it to be. So it was difficult on the field. There were some there were some challenges going on staff wise within our department as well. Let's just say there were some challenges there. And that's probably where I feel like if I have regrets, that's those are the regrets that I have. Is how I handled that year for the team. And because the team, the team was still working, the team was still doing what they needed to do. Right. They didn't need they didn't need to hear or didn't need to see or experience what was happening to my side of things at work. And I should have done better. And that's that's a regret that I if I could do that part over again, I would do that part over again. Because it was it was challenging. But at the same time that it was challenging for me professionally from a non football side, the football side of it was still very supportive. The athletes were very supportive. The staff was very supportive. Coach told me was very supportive. Like he pulled me in his office one day. It's like, what's going on? What can I do for you? Okay. What can I do for you? And wow, say wow. You know, it's it's not often that you get that from from a head football coach that's that's concerned about, you know, an athletic trainer. I think there are there are people out there nowadays that do have that very tight relationship with the coaches they work with. And that is something that I will forever be grateful for for coach told me and that support that he had of what can I do for you. Still that last year. Painful, but rewarding as well. But otherwise, coach told me and the team were amazing. And you guys, that's the other one. I owe you guys all an apology as as GAs and students and staff have not been able to not be more of a support, more of a of a of a mentor to you guys. I was in a I was in a little bit of a tunnel there, I would say to keep words clean there is that, you know, let's just say I was in a funk. I was in a deep funk and I didn't handle it well. And that's the other part of my regret is not having been a better mentor for you guys and teach you more of what it was. It was it was kind of everybody was I felt like I was on survival mode and I almost kind of made you guys be on survival mode as well as a consequence. And that was not fair. So so I apologize for that. I would not necessarily appreciate it, but not necessary. I can say this from my perspective, not knowing the details, but seeing and and I kind of saw this again in 2000 from a distance. I mean, I wasn't working with you day in and day out, but working adjacent to you day in and day out. Same thing was happening in 2000. I wasn't working day in and day out with that coaching staff as a GA, but I saw it and I saw kind of the wear and tear as that season drag on. Like what it was doing. Yeah, kind of that accountants of people. And this was an era where I mean, we had Jeff Jansen as our sports performance guy, but there was no mental health care. Certainly for staff, very little for student athletes. And so you're just doing your best to survive. And and I want to tell you unequivocally, like I was inspired by seeing you do the job you did with the resources you had limited as they were. I couldn't have asked for a better mentor in that circumstance. It was it was powerful to see you continue to do the job in the face of of what you were facing, which I didn't have all the details on and didn't need them, frankly. Well, I truly thank you. Thank you for those very kind words because I wish I'd have done better. I wish I'd have done better. And I truly appreciate the the maturity that you all did. Especially you as GAs. I mean, honestly, you guys were in my, you know, fellow staffs that that that were working there at the time as well. I leaned on them a lot. I leaned on them a lot. I had in Greg and an M.B. I mean, they were I cried on their shoulders a bit. Right. I wish I'd have done better then and I hope I can do better now. No, I certainly appreciate it. So Coach, tell me wasn't far behind one more season of five and six football and depending on what you read, he was either asked to leave or. Whatever. And I'm not really going to get into those details here. But is there a particular game or moment that stands out to you as being kind of emblematic of who Coach told me was as a person? Wow. That's a tough one because he was so consistent. Right. He was so steady. He was, you know, I loved his laugh. I just absolutely loved his laugh and him telling stories or, you know, the gatherings that he had at his house. And and I remember the pregame speeches against ASU. That was that was that was really interesting because having been on the other side of that, that was like that. That was just so interesting. But him just it was the the approach was the same always. But like I think back in our game at Washington and what has become the leap at the late or something to that to that effect, right with OJ leaping into the end zone. And quite frankly, I saw that from street level down because I don't know if you recall, we had had a player that had a C spine injury. I ended up leaving the game with them and Dr. Wong and I walked back, which I thought was crazy because he because we were done at the hospital and the player was we knew he was OK at that point. And I said, OK, Doc, how are we going to get back now to the stadium? And he said, what do you mean? We're going to walk. It's right across the street. So at that I had no idea because of the, you know, the the intensity of keeping this athlete stable and and going. So as we're coming around because you dubbed the way the stadium was, like literally if you're coming into the stadium from the street, you can see it. And like we're coming. We're coming. If we get down, we've got to get down there. Rush down there, literally got on the field as OJ leaked into the into the end zone and just the celebration of that and what, you know, the message from Coach told me of in the locker room afterwards, like, yes, we're celebrating. This is an amazing one. But we have a brother in the hospital right now. We have a brother in the hospital. And we got it. We got to think of him and grade. OK. It's I love the fact that he was open to prayer and that it was this was embraced. We're going to embrace this when but we're going to also pray for our brother that he's OK and we know that he's going to be OK. But we're going to keep him in mind. No. So it was just that one victory at ASU. And I think there's probably a I think there's a famous picture of Brad Brennan sitting on the goalpost is like he loved that. It's like you guys go celebrate. OK. Go do go celebrate it. This is this is your moment. You know, we earned this. And so but there were all those lessons in the losses. Right. There were also lessons in the losses. I mean, he could he could call out like specific plays what the yardage was what the play was and who ran route route and who missed what block. And like he would you know, and he would do that after the game and just say, hey, you know, player X, you've got to do this and that situation. Like, you know, so his detail and his memory for all that. But again, it wasn't they were all teaching. I always felt like he was teaching. Like he wasn't he wasn't scolding or yelling like he was teaching. Yeah. No. And and hopefully the players thought that way. Maybe as a young 18, 19 year old, you don't necessarily see it that way. But I would say that now all these players that have had a chance to think back that it's like, man, those were those were teaching moments. Yeah. So that's great. I know just thinking about it in terms of leadership. If I don't pour into people and I call them out for their bad behavior, I'm just I'm a tyrant. I'm a terrible boss. But his approach was pour into the relationships first and then you can have that level of accountability because people don't assume that you're attacking their character. They know you care about them. And that's a lesson for leadership that I've certainly taken from afar. I will never forget we're in the locker room celebrating that victory. And Coach I and L.O. is trying to get. I believe he was the receiver's coach trying to wrangle his guys up. And he said, somebody go get Brad Brittenoff that goal post. Why not? It's over here. Yeah. Yeah, that's I can hear I can hear Coach I saying that right now. For sure. Yeah. So I think it's I mean, it's it's been a long time, obviously. But as you've grown in your career and moved on to other things with Kaderade, you continue to be involved in athletics. What do you feel like are the lasting bits of Coach Tomi's legacy that have served you as you've continued to grow as a professional? Wow. I think I always think back of how he just handled things with integrity, right? And again, of trying not to get too high or too low, of which I have an issue with. I get I get I get to I wear my emotions on my on my sleeve and everybody knows what it is. And I think as I've grown in my current position now is I've tried to learn to manage things more. And I think Coach knew that and he would share this is that know what you can control and do that. Take care of that. When you can't control, don't worry about it, right? Because you can't control it. But if you do the things that you're supposed to do, it's almost like plan your work and work your plan is that you take care of those things. You're going to be in a good position. Now, sometimes the guy on the other side of the line, there's out of the ball, he's going to be better than you. OK. It just it just is. You don't have to tell him that you don't have to show him that you can outwork him. You can outsmart him. You cannot do whatever it was. And so I think it is that was part of also his development of players is that, yeah, you guys. There's a lot of blue chip players here. I mean, like Teddy Bruce, I'm like, we're trying out loud and think of these guys that just were. They were considered marginal players everywhere else in the country, and they did such amazing things there. Everyone that you've mentioned so far and amazing, amazing individuals. And so what I've one of the biggest things that I take away from Coach tell me is just how he treated people. It's like, let people be the way they're going to be. Don't change people. That's the beauty of life and the beauty of individuals, right? Is treat people how you would want to be treated. You're respectful and just let everybody be and love each other. Yeah. And I'm curious. I mean, he had to have gone to Hawaii with many of these philosophies and talk to coach for me. I'm going to talk to coach Flora. But I feel like Hawaii was the perfect place for him to cultivate this. Oh, Hannah, this family first, we are this together. And I certainly saw evidence of that at U of A and from the sounds of it at San Jose later in his career when he took a San Jose state that's notoriously one of the lowest funded programs in the nation to a bowl game. That doesn't just happen. They didn't buy that. They built that. Yeah. Again, once one step at a time and of just I mean, even like I see the the variance of the haves and the have nots even now in the job that I have with the differences of budgets of one school versus another school and what they do. And coach, show me was never concerned about that. You know, it was just, hey, we're blue collar people and we're going to work hard. We're going to outwork our opponent. We're going to outwork anybody that's across that line from us. And that's how we're going to do it. And if we believe in each other and we support each other, there's a lot that can be accomplished. There's a lot that can be accomplished. And I think, you know, he loved having his family around. Okay. He loves obviously rich being right there and coming around to practice. Nancy used to come to practice a lot, you know, and every once in a while we'd see Lee as well. So it was just he would have events at his house, you know, across the street there from from McHale and or from, yeah, from from McHale. And he just loved having people around and embracing people. So O'Hanna is a perfect, perfect word for him is that that's what he believed going into it. And that's, you know, if it's a matter of this is how he wanted to be treated. Okay. He was going to treat others how he wanted to be treated and that embracing of the family environment, he extended that out. He was very proud of his family. Obviously, I heard, I heard Rich talk and, you know, I think Coach Showme was tough on him, but he also loved him and he wasn't afraid to be open about his love for another individual. And that's a special, that's a special quality about a human and about a man especially. And he wasn't afraid to show that. And I think that's part of it's like working out. We don't need fancy stuff. We don't need this. But you know what? Give us a ball, give us a field, give us some cleats and helmets. We're going to take care of things. Yeah. And he always, I think he always just carried that out. Yeah. I think Rich, even going to it, he relished the role of the underdog. And I think he preferred the way it went down in 98 unranked to best season school history as opposed to heavy expectations and having to carry that weight. That really was not like that high ranking that year. Yeah. Yep. Any particularly funny stories about Coach Showme that that come to mind when when I ask. Oh gosh, there's so many. There's so many. And it's again, I think of if you just see him, it was it was that, you know, he wasn't. He wasn't worried about a fancy suit or, you know, fancy apparel. Okay. Like, you know, Coach Showme often wore dress shoes without socks and shorts. You know, it was like he said his own tone. There may have been a time or two when you're standing at an event with a plate of food and Coach Showme comes over and just grabs a piece of food off your plate, whatever it was, right? And that was okay because that's that's who he was. That's who he was. It wasn't it was just he was that comfortable. It's like, hey, we're all family. You're glad that let me take that celery off your plate. Right. So, but it was just it was just that. And he just loves seeing the guys have fun. And even in the most intense times, like I remember standing on the fields at Camp Cochise, this is training camp, right? Preseason training camp. It's supposed to be pretty intense. You're out there in the, it seemed like the middle of nowhere. And the monsoon start rolling in and he he'd walk over. He's like, Megan, look at that beautiful sky. Look how beautiful those clouds are that are coming in right now. I'm like, the first time he ever said that just really kind of caught me up guard. I'm like, oh my gosh, that we're like, this is intense time. And he's really enjoying the beauty of the environment that we're in surrounded by these clouds coming in. But he he could do that, right? And then he could come right in and tell a player about what just happened with the play that that that was just run or a technique and a in a in a drill that they were doing, he could just, he could switch that way. He could, his mind was, he was, he was pretty intense in that regard of just being able to switch around like that. So some great times, some really, really, really good, good times. And man, I will be thankful. I'll be thankful to coach tell me for forever. And I'm just grateful that I had a chance to be on his staff and work alongside him. Yeah. I had a chance to visit U of A and I don't know if you've seen it. I'm sure you have, but the coach told me practice fields. There's a plaque and, you know, it's, it's surreal to me. I mean, first of all, the baseball field is gone. So that was a bit of a jolt. But the fact that this coach who had the greatest season in school history and two years removed is getting pressured out. Like that's a complicated relationship. And I love the fact that U of A has, has honored him. I love what coach Brennan has done and, and bringing a lot of familiar faces back. But it makes me wonder, you know, what, what, in your opinion, do you think coach told me would want people to remember most about him and his teams? What would he say his legacy is? A such tricky question, because I think the last thing he was worried about would be his legacy. Um, yet if he had to, I would just say again, it just family and how he treated people that he cared that he was a caring human being. And it wasn't that, I mean, I was, I think most people know that he loved baseball. I mean, he was a baseball player, right? And that's what he, that's what he did in, in his off time was play baseball. And he was an amazing football coach and he knew how to build a staff and he knew how to get the most out of his staff. And you'd, I'd get the most out of the players, but he cared. He cared a lot and, and he showed that every day. And I think just knowing the type of individual that it was that again, didn't care about a legacy, but if you had to put a word on it, it was that, that he cared. Yeah. That without a doubt. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, last one here, we're going to, we're going to play a little bit of make believes. I want you to look into the camera. We're on the zoom call here. Pretend I'm him. You get one more chance to say whatever's on your heart. What would you say? Oh my gosh, coach, show me. I thank you. I thank you for, for allowing me and to be a part of your team, for supporting me, for embracing, for building the culture that you built and embracing everybody that was a part of it and just allowing us all to be individuals and allowing us each to, to basically be in charge of our own success that you, you just, you laid that groundwork and I love you for it. I miss you. Yeah. Well, so heartfelt. I sincerely appreciate you joining me today. Mags, it's been tremendous. I am Magy Lacambra and I am undone. What a gift it's been to sit with Maggie today, to hear her heart, to revisit a remarkable chapter in Arizona football history and honor a man who led not just with his strategy, but with his soul in a profession and an era where toughness was too often equated with silence or stoicism. It's told me model the different kind of strength. One rooted in care, culture and in connection. And Maggie, she's carried that same legacy forward, often with double the scrutiny and half the credit, yet always with an uncompromising commitment to do in the job and doing it right. As I reflect on our conversation, I'm struck by the shared thread between them, deep, abiding belief in people and their worth and their potential in their story. Coach, told me believed in Maggie. She in return became the kind of leader who could inspire belief in others. It's fitting that we close this chapter of the series with someone who not only worked beside coach, told me, but who lived out the very values he championed. Maggie Lacambra is more than a pioneer. She's a reminder that being undone isn't always just about falling apart. It's about showing up, holding the line and becoming something more. Peace by hard worn peace. Next time I'll be coming undone, you know, we are getting close to wrapping this one up. Freased out to several folks who I think would make for great interviews about coach. Hopefully I'll be able to lock them down in the next few days. In particular, Wendell Neal, who was equipment manager for Coach, told me for several years and just today I had a chance to sit down with head coach of the San Jose State Spartans, Ken Yumatololo. Also reached out to others and will bring this train home with a follow up conversation with coach's son, Rich. This and more coming up on Becoming Undone. Hey, if you've made it this far, do me a favor, share this episode with someone who was touched by coach told me whether they knew him personally or just learn from someone who did. Invite them to come along for the journey. We're nearing the end, but we aren't quite there yet. This is Becoming Undone, the life, lessons and legacy of coach Dick Tobey, a Toby Brooks passion project. Coming undone is a nitro-hype creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. Follow along on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn at Becoming Undone pod. Follow me at Toby J Brooks. Check out my link tree at linkedr.ee backslash Toby J Brooks. Subscribe and please leave me a review on Apple podcasts, Spotify, our heart radio or wherever you're listening right now. Till next time. Thanks for listening. Be purposeful. Be relentless. Love somebody enough to tell them the truth. But above all else, keep on Becoming Undone.