Frank McAlister

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And for less than the price of one latte, I get all of this. Ready to make healthy swaps and become a member? Join Thrive Market with our link, thrivemarket.com slash TCATT for 30% off your first order, plus a free $60 gift. Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 470 of the true crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me, how are you? Hey, I'm doing okay. Okay. Me too. Yeah. For some reason you keep not asking me how I'm doing because you don't care. It's coming around. So we just got done recording our Patreon episode, which we'll have dropped Saturday night. And it's on Aaron Davis. you know, this is a really good guy, young kid, like 19 years old. He had just passed this exam and he was going to visit his best friend. And then he was going to go on and visit his girlfriend. But the day after he visited his friend, his car was found abandoned and police, uh, you know, they pretty quickly identified his friend as the main suspect. Yeah. Give it a listen. But also, you know, in the beginning of that, we talked about, you know, carrying the new podcast desk down into the basement. So the studio is coming along. It should be in a couple of weeks that we are ready to put out the first second episode of the week. And I hope people are getting excited for that. I know we are. Yeah, we definitely are. We also have a brand new episode out right now on true crime, all the time unsolved, where we're talking about the murder of Tracy Nielsen. This goes all the way back to 1981. Yeah. I was just a wee little lad. Yeah. Her husband, Jeff returned home from a day of classes to find his wife, Tracy dead from multiple staff. And they'd only been married like five months. So what a nightmare. Yeah. Definitely check that out. Let's go ahead and give our patron shout outs. We had Priscilla Gale. Hey, Priscilla. Nick Robinson. What's going on, Nick? Laurel H. Hey, Laura. Brian McKinney. What's happening, Brian? Katie Sherwood. Hey, good old Katie. JS. What's happening, Jay? Kim Rosicki. Ah, Kim. Mandy Geierman. Hey, Mandy. Oh, Mandy. Oh, Mandy. And last but not least, Marianne Keyswood-Wells. Ah, the old Keyswood. Then if we go back into the vault. this week we selected jilly jacobs jilly you remember jilly wasn't jilly like a uh character on saturday night live you just said that last week about another character jilly no it was i think it was and that's where i was talking about gilda radnor i swear that was like last week or the week before maybe i was but now it's jilly yeah yeah i think before it was gilly yeah and i was wrong i think you said i don't know if you are or not but apparently you think everybody is a character on Saturday Night Live. And let's face it, for as long as it's been on, there probably is a character named Jilly, Jilly, and every other name you can think of. Maybe next week we'll have somebody named Billy. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time? I'm ready. 19-year-old Frank McAllister was reported missing on May 7th, 1993 by his fiance, who told police he left the house to meet friends and then he never came back. Investigators suspected foul play. When they found blood in the vehicle Frank was driving, both Frank's family and authorities suspected he was killed by the three people who last saw him alive. But his case went cold for almost 25 years until one of the suspects revealed everything in a shocking TV interview. That's exciting to me to hear. When someone spills the beans or spills the tea or whatever the saying is, look on people's faces. We're probably like, they say what we thought they said. Well, I think it goes back to all the unsolved episodes we do. You know, how many times at the end do we talk about, you know, what's it going to take to solve this case? And one of those could be that someone finally decides to come forward and tell everything they know. it just doesn't happen all that often. Oh, you're right. Frank McAllister was born on September 20th, 1973 in Downey, California. His parents were Doug McAllister and Cindy Talmachoff. Frank's mother, Cindy said in an interview with Cold Case Files, he was a good baby. He loved the joke. He loved to tease you and do whatever he could to get your attention. And you know, a lot of kids are like that, right? They just want attention. Sure they do. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes not, but they crave attention. Some adults do that too. Oh, very much so. I think even more so today than maybe what we were used to 20, 30 years ago. Frank's parents separated when he was eight and Frank lived with his father in Redding, California. By the time Frank was 19, he was using drugs, including meth. You ever tried meth? No, I have not. Do you see the fact that I have all my teeth? Look, no. You ever notice when people do meth, like it must make their teeth itch or something? Because they're always like playing inside their mouth. It's because they're about ready to fall out, I assume. I don't know. I've always heard that meth makes your teeth fall out. Maybe I'm totally wrong about that. I think you're correct. It could be that people on meth just don't brush their teeth. I don't know. Since 1992, Frank had been dating Donnell Taddeck, who tried to help him stop using drugs. And, you know, that's a great thing to do. I imagine Gibbs, it's also a very tough thing to do. Sure. Yeah. You know, part of that comes down to number one, does the person even want to stop? Cause I think that's a huge factor in, you know, getting off of anything. But then the other thing is some of these things are just so addictive that it's virtually impossible or, or I shouldn't say impossible, but very tough. I'm sure it drains individuals that have somebody that have one of these type of addictions. Yeah. I'm sure it's draining, but you know, good on her for trying to help him out. Now, Frank and Danelle broke up for a couple of months in early 1993, and she told the record Searchlight newspaper she feared he fell in with the wrong crowd and got mixed up with drugs. By the spring of 1993, Frank was ready to start a new phase of life with Danelle. They were engaged and talked about moving to Reno, Nevada. They wanted to elope in Reno on May 17th, 1993. exactly one year after they met. Frank had been working as a cook at a restaurant, but he wasn't making a lot of money. He was unemployed at the time of his disappearance. Frank was in a car accident in March, 1993. However, shortly before he went missing, he received a settlement check for $5,000. And you know, when you don't have a lot of money, $5,000 is a lot. You can stretch that out. Well, Danelle said she and Frank planned to use the money to pay debts and get their own apartment since they had been living with friends. She told the record Searchlight, I really thought I had found the love of my life. I had a lot of goals, a lot of dreams. We had a lot of things we were working together on. But Frank wanted to use some of his settlement money to buy meth and resell it for a profit. It's probably in his head. He's probably like, I can buy some meth, double my money. I think as long as you don't use your own product, maybe that works. But I think- But it might work. It's also still highly illegal. That's true too. Yes. But I think for somebody who was addicted, is addicted, right? Once addicted, you're always addicted is what they say. But even if you stop using, I mean, the temptation there Gibbs, that's probably too much for anyone to have all of that supply around and not use any of it. Frank discussed this plan with Dunnell, as well as his friends, Curtis and Shanna Culver, 21 and 17-year-old siblings, respectively. Shanna's boyfriend, 19-year-old Brian Hawkins, agreed to act as the middleman who would take them to a dealer in nearby Shingletown, California. On May 6, 1993, Frank borrowed Donnell's car and drove to Shingletown with Brian, Curtis, and Shannon. To make the deal, he left home around 4.30 p.m. and told Donnell he was driving her car to a friend's house. Donnell became worried when Frank didn't come home. She called Frank's mom, Cindy, and told him that both Frank and her car were missing. Cindy was worried because it wasn't like Frank to just stop and leave. Then Al spent the evening calling friends, hospitals, the police, and the Shasta County jail. And we have to keep in mind, right? It gives us 1993. Yeah. I don't think a lot of people had cell phones in 1993. They were around. I just don't think by and large, you know, most people had them. And, you know, if you're a couple who's living paycheck to paycheck, you probably didn't have one because they were kind of expensive back then. Yeah. I don't think you could afford the monthly bill. Danelle called the police again on May 7th and officially reported Frank missing. She was honest when she made the report and told police about the recent settlement and Frank's plan to buy meth. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's pretty honest. It is honest. She later learned that Frank's friends claimed he dropped them off in the area of Waterworks Park on Lake Boulevard. According to them, Frank said he had somewhere important to go and would be right back. He wouldn't say where he was going, and he never came back. Police found Donnell's car on May 7th in the Costco parking lot in Redding. There was blood on the driver's door, armrest, and the exterior of the vehicle. Investigators suspected something happened to Frank during a drug deal gone wrong. Because of the amount of blood, they treated the case as a homicide from the very beginning. Yeah, but that makes sense. You know, you got a large amount of cash, drug deal, and all this blood. What else could it possibly be? Well, I'm assuming he had his cash on him, right? Because he's buying these drugs. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a pretty good assumption to make and you know, the human body only holds so much blood. So I think when investigators look at a very large amount of blood, it kind of at the very least has to point them in the direction of homicide. It didn't take long for investigators to figure out that Brian Hawkins and the Culver siblings were the last people to see Frank. And we said it, right? They admitted they were with him in the vehicle on the day he went missing, but they claimed he dropped them off near Waterworks Park because he was going to meet someone and they hadn't seen him since. In mid-May, investigators announced their suspicion that there was foul play in Frank's disappearance, but they didn't reveal any other details. Frank's father, Doug McAllister was active in the search efforts. He told the record searchlight on May 20th, I'm going to make up a bunch of flyers and post them all over the place. This is just driving me nuts. I think would drive anybody nuts. Well, and we talked about this in our, our Patreon episode, right. That just dropped on Saturday. this is pre-Facebook. Yeah. In that case, the family was able to get on Facebook very quickly, right? And get the word out about their missing loved one. But, you know, in the seventies, eighties, early nineties, that's what you could do is post flyers, call people, you know, things like that. I guess maybe in the nineties, I can't even remember when MySpace came out. I know you probably had one because I could see you having a MySpace account. Yeah. I mean, I don't even remember when I had the internet. I want to say it was maybe 93, 94-ish, but there was no Facebook. Yeah. There was no MySpace, I don't think, at that time. I think that came out years later. But there definitely wasn a way to just quickly get something out to a large group of people Flyers was the answer Unless you could get on TV Well that true right Yeah Which a lot of people couldn do Lieutenant Steve Davidson said at the time we have a lot of witnesses who know him, who we have talked to, who have given their opinion on what happened, but we have no suspects we're about to arrest. Davidson also said that Frank had cash on him when he disappeared, but any other motive would just be sheer speculation. So that goes back to what you said, right? He planned on using this $5,000 to buy meth and make money doing it. It's hard not to imagine that he had either all of it or a large chunk of it with him that night. If the plan was to go buy this meth that he was then later going to turn around and sell. Yeah. Frank's stepmother, Kim noted that Frank was the kind of person who would have shown his money off to acquaintances. She told the record searchlight, we tried to tell him to open a bank account right away. And let's face it. Some people are like that. If they come into some money, you know, they want to tell people about it, or maybe they want to buy something that they can show off. There's nothing inherently wrong with it. Now, if you tell the wrong person, you could potentially set yourself up to become a target. And then there's people who they don't want anyone to know that they have any money at any point. Oh, of course. Yeah. I'm looking at one right across from me. Hey, if you would have gave me advanced notice, I would have brought money for dinner, I would have, you know, we talked about it at dinner. So we've been doing this podcast for 10 years and I've been feeding you every week for 10 years. You have brought dinner or bought dinner once in 10 years. And then two other times you brought some desserts three times. Yeah. You have actually opened up your wallet in 10 years. I'm thinking you're missing one or two dates in there. I don't know if I am. If so, it's no more than five. Let's just throw that out there. I think I said, hey, I'll get dinner next time. And you're like, no, don't worry about it. I definitely would not say that. Well, you know, I appreciate it. Hey, folks, if you want a different type of bank, a smarter bank, one that's built for you, you got to check out Chime. They offer things that most banks don't offer. There's no overdraft fees, no minimum balance fees, no monthly fees, period. 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MyPay eligibility requirements apply, and credit limit ranges $20 to $500. optional services and products may have fees or charges see chime.com slash fees info advertised annual percentage yield with chime plus status only otherwise 1.00% APY applies no min balance required chime card on time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score results may vary see chime.com for details and applicable terms you know a thoughtfully built wardrobe comes down to pieces that mix well and last that's where quince shines premium fabrics considered design and everyday essentials that feel effortless to wear and dependable even as the seasons change My wife absolutely adores their lightweight cashmere sweaters. I'm more of a flow knit performance type of guy, but they have everything I need. Lightweight joggers, shorts, tops, but they also have coats, European Jersey linen. Quince works directly with top factories and cuts out the middlemen. You're not paying for brand markup or fancy retail stores, just quality clothing. And they only partner with factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. Right now, go to quince.com slash TCAT for free shipping and 365-day returns. That's a full year to build your wardrobe and love it. And you will. Now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to QUINCE.com slash TCATT for free shipping and 365 day returns. QUINCE.com slash TCAT. Doug and Kim talked to Frank a few days before he went missing, and they tried to convince him to move to Sacramento where they lived. They explained for the past year, Frank had been working at two restaurants in Redding and a warehouse in Los Angeles, but he was unemployed. At the time of his disappearance, Kim said they wanted Frank to stay with them until he got back on his feet and even told him his girlfriend could come with him, but Frank didn't want to leave Redding. And I get that. It's tough to leave the place where you live, right? It's your home, but it really sounds like they were trying to make it easier for him to allow him to kind of get back up on his feet because he's working all these jobs and he just can't stay afloat is what it sounded like. I'm a tough go at it. Well, and maybe he thought coming into the 5,000 meant that he'd be okay. Months passed with no new leads in the case. On April 13th in 1994, mushroom foragers in the woods near Grayson Nora Lakes in Shingletown found skeletal human remains. The lower part of the body had been scavenged by animals, resulting in bones being scattered throughout the woods. Scattered near the bones was clothing, a California driver's license with Frank's name on it, and papers. The clothing was consistent with what Frank was wearing when he went missing. That's an eerie find. It is. It always is, right? But you think about, you know, why aren't more bodies that are just left out in the woods found? And I think oftentimes if there's no clothes or there's no other identifiers, I think these bones get scattered by, you know, scavengers. And, you know, obviously if you walk in the woods and you see a full skeleton, that's going to be very easy to recognize. Absolutely. But if there's just small bone fragments or things like that, you might not pick up on them if they're scattered all over the place. But my other thought is probably little doubt, right? You have his driver's license, you've got some papers and you have the clothing that he was said to have been wearing when he went missing. Yeah, thank you. I found your missing person. Reading police Sergeant Chuck Liebach said at the time, we feel strongly it is Frank McAllister. However, a positive identification has not been made. Dental records later confirmed the remains were Frank McAllister. His cause of death was having his throat cut. And, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, finding just skeletal remains and not always being able to determine cause of death. Now, if you've got a gunshot wound to the head, that's very easy to see. If the skull's there, I would think having your throat cut, there would be some marks left behind by the knife if that part of the body is found. The police received tips and suspected the Culver siblings and Brian Hawkins early on, but they didn't publicly announce the suspects. According to A&E, authorities had limited success talking to Shanna Culver because she was only 16 at the time of the murder. Well, but like we said earlier, those were the individuals last seen with Frank. So they seem like the most likely suspects. Or at the very least, they're going to be on the radar until they're ruled out. And all three had racked up criminal records over the years. According to the record searchlight, Brian has a criminal history dating back to 1991, including arrests for drunk driving, hit and run, burglary, receiving stolen property, and corporal injury to a spouse. Curtis Culver has a record for possession of a controlled substance, obstruction and the manufacture of weapons shanna has a record for possession of a controlled substance and paraphernalia petty theft and child abuse it's all three not really uh good people well at the very least you'd have to say they weren't doing the right things and they were caught a number of times by police shanna was also involved in a 2002 traffic collision that killed 35-year-old Philip Lamont Jackson. Shanna told police he was standing in the road. Police said Shanna had not been drinking and no citations were issued. So, I mean, that could have just been an accident. Sure, it could have been, yeah. The three were interviewed several times during the course of the investigation, but they continued to deny any involvement in Frank's death. That was until January 9th, 2018. When Brian Hawkins met a reporter at KRCR's newsroom and confessed his involvement on camera, Brian just said he couldn't live with the guilt anymore and decided to turn himself in. He asked to smoke and have a soda before appearing on camera. He announced to the news crew, I'm going to turn myself in next door at the sheriff's department for a crime I was involved in years ago. And somebody lost their life. It was murder. I'm thinking the, uh, news anchor, the news crew, or we're probably all what is happening here. Yeah. I'm sure dumbfounded to a degree, but also maybe, I don't know if giddy is the right word, but you have, you got a scoop. Yeah. I'm sure there's some excitement that comes along with that as well. You got somebody who is going to go on camera and you're going to be the only one who has this breaking story. I mean, reporters and journalists, they kind of live for stuff like that. And it's going to help your ratings. Yeah. It's going to be a bombshell. No doubt about it. Brian explained that he was motivated to come forward because of his faith saying, God, Christ, these things that have happened throughout my whole life since then. for over 25 years have pushed me and pushed me to do the right thing. I know the wrong can't be changed, but this is as close as I can come to doing the right thing. Living with the guilt for so long had been horrible, horrible, absolutely horrible every day. Almost every minute of every day has been a nightmare. And this is something you and I talk about on Unsolved all the time. You know, what's it going to take to solve some of these crimes that kind of go on for 10, 20, 30, 40 years. Now there's always the DNA route, right? We always talk about that, but then you also have, could somebody potentially have a change in their way of thinking and decide to come forward? It doesn't happen all that often, but here's a prime example of when it does. Yeah. The guilt has just eaten him up on the inside. And I always wonder about that. I mean, obviously you have stone cold killers who probably have no guilt whatsoever because they have no empathy. Yeah. But not everybody is, is like that. They're involved in, in something that they shouldn't have been, but they have empathy for other people. They feel guilt. And so I think he's kind of really painting that picture of how heavy it was weighing on his shoulders for all those years. I can get it, you know, not on that level, but I know how that guilt can eat at you. I remember that time in the office, you had that other cupcake on your desk. You went to that meeting. I went to your office. I ate that cupcake. You said, who ate my cupcake? We all like, not us, not us, you know? So, you know, you're now telling me this 10 years later or something. And I knew you ate that. I did. I'm sorry. It was really good. You know, um, I don't know what else I can say, but sociopath. I feel a whole lot better now. I'm glad you unburdened yourself. Brian continued by saying, I said, it's kind of weird that Frank never even got to have a life. And neither did I, we were teenagers and now I'm 44 and still haven't. even had a life, and now probably most likely won't anyways. He refused to give details about what exactly happened. He said he didn't know Frank, but the Culvers did. Somebody came up with an idea or whatever you want to call it. They knew him. He said it wasn't my idea. A reporter asked him, why now? Brian replied by saying, I've been through hell my whole life because of this. There was not a moment he wasn't remorseful. He reached out to Frank's family several times and wanted to ask for forgiveness. But by the time he got there, he learned Frank's father had passed away. After the interview, Brian went to the Reading Police Department and turned himself in. He told the police he could no longer live with the guilt and wanted to clear his conscience. And, you know, to me, this is just amazing because I do think it's an outlier. It's not the norm. It's not where people come back 30, 40 years later and say, you know, I've lived with this for so long and I just can do it anymore And Brian gave a detailed statement about exactly what happened on May 6th 1993 He claimed it was all Shannon idea The 16 year old the 16 year old He said he was with Shannon Curtis at their apartment with the plan of meeting up with Frank McAllister. They learned Frank was looking to purchase a large amount of meth. And with some of his insurance settlement money, he wanted to resell it for profit. Brian suggested going to Shingletown because he knew people in the area who Frank might be able to buy meth from. Once the decision was made to go to Shingletown, Shanna told Brian she had come up with a plan to kill Frank because he had money. Brian said he blew Shanna off because he thought she wasn't being serious, but Shanna of took out a folding pocket knife from her closet and showed it to him. Brian thought she was showing him the knife because she possibly wanted to use it to stab Frank when they robbed him. And you just said it, right? The 16 year old, we know it happens, but it is hard to believe. I think a lot of times that, you know, a person that young could be so cold blooded. Yeah. Conceive that plan. Help carry it out. Even have the thought enter their mind. Yeah. A while later, after Frank had joined them, the four of them left the apartment in Frank's vehicle to head to Shingletown. Brian was sitting in the backseat behind Frank, who was driving. Curtis was in the front passenger seat. Shanna was behind Curtis in the backseat. Brian told Frank where to go. Once they arrived in Shingletown, he directed him to pull onto a dirt turnout. off the road and park, they sat in the car for a couple of hours just talking. And it was during this time they were in the car that Shanna removed the knife from her purse and showed it to Brian, telling him to take it and stab Frank in the neck with it. Brian took the knife, but Curtis was the one who ended up stabbing Frank in the neck with a different knife while they were all still in the car. Sure, Frank never saw it coming. No. And you're right about that. I would assume if he had any inkling that these people wanted to do him harm, he wouldn't have gone. But I also have the thought Gibbs, and I have it quite a bit in these types of cases where you have someone who has an idea that is not only criminal, but it involves taking someone's life and two other people hear the idea and they're kind of all in like too easily all in. Yeah. I mean, I think as you often say, you know, where's the voice of reason? Where's the person who stands up and says, what are you talking about? I don't want to be involved in this. This is wrong. We shouldn't do this. Now, I don't know if it's group think. I don't know if drugs, you know, played a factor in this and in the thinking process, or if these were just people based on their records then, and, and even more so later who had kind of a criminal mind and would do whatever they had to do to get some quick, easy money. And that's exactly what it was, right? Quick, easy money. Wasn't big amount. I mean, when you take the five grand, if it was five grand that he brought with him. Yeah. If he brought the whole thing. What is that? You know, less than a couple thousand bucks each. Is that really worth murder? That's, that's what blows my mind. Like people will ruin their life over less than a couple grand. But why is that? Why are they willing to take the risk? Is it because they just believe they're so smart, they're never going to get caught. And let's face it, would they have gotten caught if Brian never comes forward? Probably not. They got away with it for, you know, however many years. Probably not. But you're right. When you think about a grand, $1,500. Now, there's no way to put any price on a life, but those types of amounts, they're just inconceivable. Yeah. How could you even take a chance for that little amount of money? Now, again, if, if drugs or the thought of getting drugs, needing the money to buy drugs is a factor. Okay. That I can understand a little bit more. Sure. Doesn't make it better. No, it doesn't. But it makes it easier to understand maybe how the group think kind of kicks in. If they were all doing the drugs and they needed them. After being stabbed, Frank opened his door and got out. The three got out and walked to him. Frank laid down on the ground and Brian straddled him and began stabbing him in the throat. With the knife Shanna gave him, he admitted he stabbed Frank a lot of times. Curtis dragged Frank's body towards the front of the vehicle and grabbed a large rock and dropped it on his head. After that, the three got back into the car and drove back to Redding. Brian abandoned the car in the Costco parking lot. Then they took a taxi back to the Culver's apartment. After getting back, Brian noticed Curtis and Shannon had a lot of cash. They gave him several hundred dollars and he knew the money was frank's because it had blood on it only several hundred dollars yeah out of this large amount of cash i'm sure he did know it was frank's who else had that type of cash on him that day also who else just got stabbed and had a rock dropped on their head can you imagine picking up a big rock and dropping it on somebody's head i mean at that point wasn't he already dead anyway? If, if he wasn't, he was going to be most likely right from the amount of stab wounds. Officers asked the new station to wait to air the interview segment until they found the accomplices. KRCR agreed to wait 24 hours. And it's a big ask, right? You've got this bombshell breaking story. But what happens if they air it and Curtis and Shanna see it? It's a tip off. Then they're gone, right? They're in the wind. It doesn't mean they won't be caught, but they're going to try their darndest to, you know, maybe get to another country or at the very least get somewhere where it'd be harder to find them. Yeah. They're going to hide. On January 10th, 2018, police located Curtis Culver in Red Bluff. He agreed to go to the Redding Police Department. Once he was in the interview room, he admitted his involvement. And I just wonder, you know, had it been weighing on him as well? Or was it because investigators hit him with the fact that Brian had already confessed? I hope when he walked in there, the reason that he confessed so quickly was because the guilt was eating him up as well. Yeah, it would be great if that's the way it went down. But I think people would argue, okay, if it was eating you up so badly, why had you not come forward before then? That's true. So more than likely, at least from my way of thinking, he was hit with this kind of, you're not getting out of this. So you better admit it and craft a better story than Brian. Yeah. Because his story did match Brian's up to the point where Frank was stabbed. But that was where key differences emerged. Curtis recalled pulling out a knife he had in the car and pointing it in Frank's direction because, at least according to him, he was afraid. Around that time, Brian reached around the front of Frank's neck and slit his throat with the knife he was holding. Frank got out of the car and fell to the ground. Brian sat on him and began stabbing him in the throat and upper chest numerous times. When Brian got off him, Frank appeared to be alive, but barely. Curtis dropped the large rock on his head out of mercy, and then Frank appeared to be dead at that point. When you hear it that way, it kind of makes sense about why he dropped the rock on the head. He's saying, oh, Frank was suffering. I couldn't watch it. I needed to put him out of his misery, so I picked up the rock and did it. as opposed to him, you know, being a terrible guy and, and just throwing this rock down on Frank's head is, is kind of a additional act of violence, right? His version paints him as, as more of the compassionate one, right? He's trying to paint himself as being compassionate. Yeah. Wait, I, I didn't stab him. I didn't cut his throat. You know, Brian did all of that. And I did drop the rock, but it was just because I wanted him not to suffer. And that's kind of what I meant when I said, well, he has to craft a better story than Brian. Yeah. At this point, right? Everybody's fighting for their lives to craft their own narrative. And more often than not, each person's narrative makes them look better than the other people involved. Yeah. That's just how it works. Curtis also claimed that Brian was the one who took the cash and some meth from Frank's pockets. But I want to go back to him saying, yeah, I did pull out a knife. I pointed it in Frank's direction, but it was only because I was afraid. Dude, you're the one holding a big ass knife. What are you afraid of? You're in the strength position. Curtis was arrested at the end of his interview. Shanna Culver was also found in the red bluff area, but refused to go to the police station willingly. She was arrested and brought back to Redding. And I don't know if they had body cams in 2018. I don't think they had them the way they do today, but I keep talking about these body cam videos. I just can't stop watching them on YouTube. And this is the type of one that they would show, right? She's they're looking for her. They find her, but she's not going to go willingly. She's going to put up a fight. Yes, she is. And it's going to be caught on body cam. I don't know if this one was 25 years later, Shanna stuck to her original story. She admitted she was with her brother, Brian and Frank on the day he was last seen alive. They drove around together and Frank dropped them off. When he got a call on his pager, she presumed he was going to buy that. So it's interesting, right? To see each person's thought process. Yeah. And what course of action they're going to take. The other two guys tell differing versions of events, but they both implicate themselves. Yeah. Shanna doesn't. She said the exact same thing she said 25 years earlier. Yeah. I already told you this story. Like I'll tell you again, but nothing's changed. But when a detective played a recording of Brian's confession, she then refused to talk saying, that's all I'm going to say anymore. I want a lawyer. Well, it's a smart thing to say. It's probably not a bad thing to say at all. Shanna became emotional and was crying and yelling during her interview before she invoked her right to an attorney. After the news came out, Frank's 81-year-old grandmother, Avis Rice, said the family was shocked by the arrest after so many years, but they were relieved that the case might finally be solved. They had long suspected that Brian Hawkins and the Culver siblings were responsible for Frank's death. And I could see that, right? Kind of clinging to that notion over so many years. These are the last people to have been seen with him or known to have been with him. They must have done something to him because nothing else Gibbs has come out to really point in another direction. And that just fits the possibility. It's like one of the stronger possibilities. Yeah. And I think a lot of people would argue probably the strongest. sadly Frank's father Doug McAllister died in October 2017 Frank's uncle John McAllister wrote about the arrests on Facebook and noted that Doug was certain about those responsible for Frank's death but he died before the arrests were made and sadly that happens a lot in cases that take, you know, decades and decades to solve. Yeah. You know, loved ones of the victim, mothers, fathers, grandmothers, grandfathers, they die before finally the truth comes out. And so they never really get to know. Which is sad. It is very sad. Although she was 41 years old when she was arrested. Shanna first appeared in juvenile court because she was a minor when the crime was committed. You always wonder how they're going to handle that. Yeah. And I don't know if it varies state by state. I'm sure it does. Most things do. But I think by and large, a lot of the sentencing and everything like that does kind of revert to back when the crime occurred. Now it's strange as a 41 year old woman to be going into juvenile court, but she technically was only 16 at the time. That's true. But I'll tell you what, for me, if I'm the family, I'm not happy about that. No, because she was also the mastermind. Allegedly. Allegedly. Yeah. I mean, said to have been the mastermind, but here's the thing, right? She was 16. That means she lived the last 25 years, right? Free where Frank didn get to live at all No she chose not to turn herself in On January 17th 2018 Brian Hawkins attempted to plead guilty in court but was told he would have to wait until he spoke with his defense attorney to make sure he was fully aware of his rights and the consequences. Man, he was really ready to plead guilty. Yeah, but I understand why the courts would want that. It's going to somewhat limit future appeals and things like that, right? He didn't have the right mind. He didn't know. He hadn't even talked to his attorney. Yeah. I mean, the court is always trying to make sure that everything is handled correctly so that it does limit what can come back on appeal. On October 25th, 2018, the three defendants were ordered to stand trial for murder. In her closing arguments at the preliminary hearing, Deputy DA Kelly Caffell said all three co-defendants were active participants in the murder and the motive was money. Shanna's defense attorney scoffed at Brian's assertion that she was the mastermind of the murder and placed all the blame on Brian. shocking that defense attorneys would try to place the blame on every defendant, but their own. I mean, that's like defense one-on-one, right? Yeah, absolutely. Deflect, deflect, deflect. You can just imagine what this guy was saying. This was a 16-year-old girl. Are you going to believe that she was the mastermind of this entire thing, that she was able to boss around these older guys and get them to do what she wanted. Problem is between Brian and Shanna is that Brian actually came in and made a confession. So that kind of puts him up a notch on her because if he didn't do that, I don't think she would have ever turned herself in. No, I don't think so either. And I also feel the same way about Curtis, right? Brian comes in, tells his story. Curtis comes in and tells a different story that really puts most of the blame on Brian. Yeah. But who came in willingly and how much stock do you put in that? Well, I think you have to put some stock into it. Yeah, I do as well. The attorney also noted that Brian made wild accusations against Shanna and her brother about being devil worshipers. During his interviews, she called Brian paranoid and his statements self-serving. Well, what defendant's statements are not self-serving? I mean, that's basically all they try to do. Well, you ain't lying. Brian's attorney argued that he had been truthful and taken responsibility for his actions. Brian had no idea Frank was going to be robbed and killed and took no violent action against Frank until after Curtis allegedly stabbed him. Curtis's defense strongly disagreed with this story, saying it was Brian who killed Frank. There was no evidence that Curtis ever spoke to Shanna or Brian about robbing and killing Frank. Well, there isn't, right? I mean, it's his word against his and her word versus her word against their word versus, you know, it's just a triangle. A lot of people's words against other people's words. Yeah. I get what you're saying. And it's, I think these are tough for juries or the judge, right? Whoever is listening to the case, because you don't have really the, that kind of rock solid, concrete evidence. Everything's kind of circumstantial. this person said that, but somebody else is saying something completely different. Chana is saying they weren't even together. Right. No murder even occurred. I think for her, she looks the worst because you have two individuals putting her at the crime scene. Yeah. I thought that too. Right now they, they might be telling different versions of the story, but both of their stories involve the murder of Frank. Frank. Yeah. So it makes her story of them not even being together seem like she's just completely lying. I mean, in both of their stories, they don't say she stabbed them, but she's still there. Provide the knife to one of them. On November 26, 2019, Brian Hawkins pleaded guilty to murder, robbery, and special allegations on January 14th, 2022. Curtis and Shanna Culver pled guilty to voluntary manslaughter, robbery in concert, and multiple assault charges. And I thought it was interesting that their trial was more than two years after Brian's. I mean, all three pled guilty. You just wonder what happened. And I didn't read it anywhere, but what happened that caused theirs to be delayed by so many years. Maybe COVID. Yeah, you're right. It could be because COVID was, you know, smack dab in the middle of the two. Frank's family issued a statement after the hearing as reported by KRC are murdered at 19 years old. The criminals involved robbed Frank of a life, the opportunity to create a positive legacy. Frank was denied his whole life filled with opportunity, the creation of a family, a chance to love and be loved. To this day, our family imagines what life would have been like for all of us had Frank lived to be a part of all of us. Now, you think sometimes this has to be tough for the family. It does seem as though, you know, maybe Frank was doing something he shouldn't have been doing. Right. Right. If he really was going to buy meth and he was going to resell it. Well, obviously that's a crime. It's something he shouldn't have been doing, but does that mean he deserved to have his life taken away from him? No, absolutely not. I just don't think it's ever good. The broadcast that you have a source of funds coming in or that it's come in. Right. And you're showing it off and you're talking about your plans for it and this and that. Yeah. Because you don't know who's going to be that one person who you show it to, who's going to do basically anything to get their hands on. Yeah. Now, a lot of times you roll into the studio with a, you know, a big fat roll. Oh yeah. rubber banded. Now it's all ones from whatever show at the senior center you did last night or the night before, whenever it was. So I know it's, it's really not a lot of money, but even if it was all twenties, I'm still not going to harm you and take your money. It just looks impressive when it's in my jeans. It does, but she didn't hear that from me. No, what it looks like is you have elephant Titus of the testicles. That's what it looks like. On March 28th, 2022, Brian Hawkins was sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. On May 26th of that year, Curtis and Shanna Culver were sentenced to 35 and 20 years respectively. They must serve 80% of their time before they're eligible for parole. So their trials were over two years apart, but Curtis and Shanna actually got sentenced two days before Brian did. Now, is it interesting that Curtis got 10 more years than Brian? Is that because Brian came forward? You think? I think that had something to do with it. You know, he was the first one to, to tell the story. He implicated himself. Curtis then came along and told a different story. I'm sure they believed Brian. Um, it also could be that they had Brian's cooperation. That wasn't really clear in the reporting, but it also doesn't surprise me that, that Shanna only got 20 years. Number one, she was only 16 years old. Right. At the time. Now, could she have been tried as an adult? Yeah, probably. But proving that she was the mastermind, I think that's pretty tough. I think so too. I mean, both of the guys admitted that she didn't stab anybody. They did the stabbing. Well, if you believe Curtis, he only did the head smashing with a rock only as in his words. But I mean, so Shanna's got to spend at least 16 years before she can be considered. That's a good chunk of time. Well, yeah. All three of them are going to spend many years in prison. Now I'm sure if you're the family, you're saying, well, it's not near enough. Of course. The family is most always going to think that maybe if you're the family of these three individuals, you think it was too much. I don't know. A lot of the time, you know, you and I can get upset about sentences thinking that they're not just, they're not fair. I don't really have a big issue with these sentences. Now, what I do have the issue with is that they got to spend a very large chunk of their life free. If you think about it, they would probably be out now had they been sentenced like this back then. Yeah. And I wonder if they think about, man, why didn't we just come forward? Yeah. But then, you know, they lived a life without these convictions. Now it doesn't sound like they did great things with their life. We went through their criminal histories, but when they get out, they're going to be convicted felons. And for many people, that's a, that's a tough road to get a job and get housing and all of that. But as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, you know, the murder of Frank McAllister was a case where investigators and the victim's family had very strong suspicions about who was involved. There just wasn't enough proof to press charges or bring about an indictment. It took almost 25 years, but it was Brian Hawkins' conscience that finally got to him and drove him to tell the truth about what happened, ensuring that the case could be resolved. Because I think you can make a very good argument. If Brian doesn't come forward, this case could still be unsolved today. I absolutely believe that. Because I think there's very little doubt that either one of the Culvers were coming forward. So you do have to give Brian credit for at least that. Sure, yeah. It doesn't excuse what he did, but obviously his life, I think had changed at some point. I don't know what point he talked about his faith. He talked about different things, whatever it was, it no longer allowed him to live with this guilt. And he felt that he had to come forward. And I'm with you. I think that is part of the reason why he got 10 years less than Curtis is because he came forward. He told his story. Curtis only came forward because he was implicated. Yeah. He had no choice. And he had to, you know, come talk to the police and they probably thought he lied when he told his story anyway, but that's it for our episode on Frank McAllister. We got a couple of voicemails. You want to check those out? Let's hear them. Hi guys. This is Hannah from Oregon. I just wanted to call in and tell you that I love both shows, but mostly I wanted to share a fun little tidbit. I have a local TCAT. It is the Tri-County Anti-Trafficking Task Force, and we help combat human trafficking all over Idaho and Oregon. So I just wanted to let you know that there are other great folks out there just like you doing the great work under the TCAT name. Anyway, safe to say I am Team TCAT. I love both of you and how your humors play so well into each other. With that, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. All right. Thank you so much for the voicemail. And that does sound like great work. It does. We talk about human trafficking quite a bit. You know, it's something that really scares me. The thought that someone can be snatched up off the street and end up either in a different part of the country and a different country altogether being forced to do something that they shouldn't have to do and being separated from their family i've seen when they rated you know docks and they open up the storage like the shipping containers yeah and there's just a bunch of women in there yes it's horrible it really is absolutely horrible hey mike hey gibby it's steven uh again i called years ago but um i still want to let you guys know i'm still an avid listener and i just listened to the podcast the newest one from 2026 and want to let you guys know you said have a good year i found a promising career and i'm going to move up in life with my family and thank you for making my night so much easier because now i work graveyard in the hospital so i appreciate it and uh keep up the good work and keep your own time picking guys and i hope the best for all you guys in the great new year, but that's awesome. That's awesome. Steven. Yeah, it is. Congratulations to you. So glad things are going well in your world. All right, buddy. That is it. Yeah. For another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Thank you.