The Beam Into the Nuclear Bunkers (Part 2)

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It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. where the mist had been there is a translucent shimmering wedge-shaped craft there okay and it's like wow now then he says senior officers turn up now he's not specific where they turn up but he says a number of senior officers turn up and he will say including the base commander, Colonel Gordon Williams, the guy in charge of Ariath, Bentwaters and Ariath Woodbridge, in charge of 12,000 personnel, the top, top strike base in Britain at that time in the event of Soviet aggression, because we're talking still Cold War, yeah? Cold War, the Soviet regime didn't collapse until 1991. one so this is still heavily cold one and he says another strange thing happens and he says that from this shimmery craft and he says you can't look at it straight on because it's distorting you kind of like looking at it through your peripheral but he said that from off the fabric of the craft a bubble seemed to emerge like it's kind of weird but it slips off there's no doors open there's no any kind of structure but something slips off and it turns out it's like a bubble and then he said the bubble then divides into three bubbles and then he saw for the first time within the upper the upper torso of some small being entity whatever you want to call them and they are floating silently beside this craft colonel halton is the senior officers with him approach williams goes forward and they stop in a face-to-face-off situation maybe six to ten feet apart he can't from his perspective on the cordon he can't see everything but he can't hear any words being spoken but he uh surmises that there's some kind of silent face-off maybe telepathic communication going on this is his story now an unusual thing that adds a degree of realism to this what is a science fiction scenario is that he says at one point somebody coming from the direction of where he'd come from from the forest and the trees there was a big you know like you stand on a branch and it breaks and he said when that happened the three entities automatically close together and move back towards the fabric of the craft it's a level of detail that you wouldn't normally add if you're thinking of a lie yeah it's like an instinctive response that they had but it's an instinctive kind of comment that suggests that he's not lying all right so they do that and then they come back out this face-off continues he's then tapped on the shoulder and said you can leave now go back into the forest back to the staging area okay last thing he sees is this is all happening but what's interesting is he says that there's maybe 10 or 15 people security police there is this ongoing confrontation or whatever meeting going on between these entities and that and he said what made it more interesting is he said there were two british police officers in uniform never identified never anybody's come forward but he says they were in the background at the edge of the forest. But he said more remarkably that there were cine cameras. There were two cameras filming it. Early time, big video. And I've checked. They did exist in 1980. Americans were a few years ahead of us in terms of technology. And also on a cine film on a tripod. The old official camera. And it was being filmed, which kind of is weird because it suggests that somebody knew that it was going to happen. Or it might happen. he then goes away and then it comes and becomes a blur but that's his story essentially and so from 1983 when the story broke internationally that's all you had until 1991 then colonel halt retires in 1991 and it had featured larry warren's story had featured in three or four important documentaries, including the famous CNN three-day special, cable news network special that they did, Bentwaters, and it was the Bentwaters incident. It was really good. You can still get it on YouTube. Holt retires, and almost as soon as Holt retires, he then goes on the offensive and says, nah, Larry Warren was a wannabe make-up. He wasn't there. Aliens, talk of aliens is rubbish. Absolutely. Williams wasn't there. Blah, blah, blah. he's a drug addict, he got kicked out, which is basically exactly what Holt said. So he went on the offensive. Now, which is a bit weird. Instead of saying, well, I was involved, I wasn't there, maybe other things happened, he wasn't in any way open to the fact that this could be another incident. He just went on the offensive. Jim Penniston retires in 1993. Nah, Larry Warren's account. I don't know anything anybody that will back up that story goes on the offensive so John Burroughs 1995 he comes out and says nah I don't I don't remember any of that Holt is the most vociferous but basically the three of them are very anti-Warren even though he's been in the public domain for 8 years on his own alright and was the first person to say, I am, and I was there. Now, let's now move it forward to that transatlantic four and a half hour call with Sergeant Adrian Bustinza. Yeah, so basically, Adrian Bustinza had made a few comments over the years on social media, but had never really done public and never really gone into too much depth. He was very private and he didn't like what turns out all the infighting between witnesses. He really didn't like that at all. and he wasn't going to get involved. And it took me two years of trying to eventually get to speak to him. And there was an intermediate at one point who did a very good job in setting that up eventually. But when I spoke to him, he'd just come in from work. Now, this guy has gone on to have, he's retired now, but he'd gone on to have something like 34, 36 years as a police officer, law enforcement and then he'd ended up retiring and kind of like began working with offenders in correction facilities in the US so he'd stayed in the kind of police security environment absolutely genuine to the core and I finally got to speak to him and it turns out to be this transatlantic four and a half hour call through the night exhausting but arguably the most important interview i've ever done because at that point late on in the interview three hours into it when i started to get really really tired i had to say look i don't want to lead you um at all but i'm getting tired uh i'm gonna lead you to a point to bring up the subject of larry one what you can tell him in a cutting a long story short what what can you tell me about larry warren and he said well i don't know why i picked him but he went closer to the craft than i did whoa didn't know what he's going to say but these are more or less what he said and he basically confirmed that larry ron was there he'd actually been put in the cordon and got closer to the craft than he did he was alongside of him basically in as part of the cordon and he confirms that he saw he called them silhouettes some kind of life form silhouettes he didn't want to word use the word alien he didn't really want to use the word entity because he was very religious and what he'd seen absolutely freaked him out but he confirmed that he'd seen life forms some kind of entities there he said that there were british police there which is what warren said he said that there was at least one movie camera there taking motion picture footage nobody else had ever said that apart from warren and all these years later he 90 corroborates the story and warren is clearly tapped out and leaves and it suggests that Bustinza stayed in that cordon, alright but that's an amazing corroboration after all this time and he said that Colonel Williams turned up and was there in the field, but he also says Holt was there as does Warren all the years earlier which is yeah, let me check on following us correctly um so for many years is it fair to say that folks have disputed or there's been a dispute around that larry warren testimony from folks like halt peniston burroughs only after they're retired yes after the retired afterwards so but that's been put on and that that kind of gains momentum and that becomes the narrative that larry warren is the one who is being dishonest or making stuff up and that's what you can hear floating around however we're not saying that in this case we're going to go with larry warren's account as accurate yeah by bastinza and we're not saying that halt peniston and burrows are lying that it didn't happen but we're saying are you believing they are controlling the narrative once they come out of retirement they are taking the lead on this to say look we're going to give away enough of the story that we believe or know happened, but what we're going to do is hide other aspects of this. Is that where we're at? Basically, yeah, because if you think about it, in the way that the story emerged, at the time, we now know, in 1980, early 1981, that the US Air Force really, really feared that the major newspapers would get hold of the story and it would become a huge big media hype. They managed to keep it out of the papers until it broke in 1983. Now, various researchers, including two housewives who became the first really proper civilian investigators of the case, Dot Street and Brenda Butler, who will go down in history as being the first civilian investigators they were onto the MOD onto the Air Force trying to get information no, no, nothing happened nothing happened nothing happened and so between the incident happening in December 1980 and the memorandum coming out unexpectedly in around April, May of 1983 the US Air Force steadfastly said no, there's nothing there's no paperwork there's nothing we're not going to say anything about it and then suddenly the memorandum surfaces and larry one was really the person that got that out in because he played a part in the story of it coming out because uh various organizations had tried freedom of information in the u.s to get information out of the air force and they just kept saying no we haven't got anything no nothing at all nothing at all and then suddenly uh larry forcett was a connecticut police detective um he got involved and they wrote back and said we've got a witness now a military witness uh so this is for the first time we've got a military witness who said he was involved and uh there must be some kind of paperwork about it and indirectly then they went oh look we found this memorandum and that's how the memorandum came out all previous attempts up until then had been met with a brick wall so then it comes out so the memorandum comes out and what does that say it infers that there's two incidents first night unknown triangular object pennison burrows two nights later halton his team sees multiple ufos and he signs it wow so the the air force had to admit that there were at least two incidents because it's in their own us air force headed document but at that point there i think they went we've got to admit this now cat's out of the bag but we're not going to meet admit anything else yeah so i think that's basically the story and when we get chance we're going to poo poo this alien story and Larry Warren by the way was not the first one to mention aliens within days of the incident Brenda Butler one of these two housewife ladies who lived near the bases or she did in particular they often used to go on the bases and go to the music functions because for those people who've never lived in a military life they're like small little towns especially the US bases and they had much better facilities in the Air Force, the Army. They had big bowling alleys. They had shopping arcades. It was like little America. And so the Brits would go in there and they'd listen to the music. They'd have top guests on, top stars. Nothing like when I was in the Air Force. But anyway, Brenda Butler got friendly with some security police officers, one of whom said to her within days of the incident happening, so late December 1980, something landed in the forest and aliens were seen so that's where the first story comes from not from Larry Warren so this is indirectly another piece of corroboration that something to do with aliens did happen yeah so again a bit of another misnomer there so suffice to say that comes out larry warren's story is largely over the last since 1991 being ridiculed and he started to not be a feature in documentaries because and have you made many tv documentaries andy about your thoughts i i've been in a couple as a talking head not many all right well i've done lots over the the years and the way it works is like this a researcher will ring you up and say gary i understand you know a lot about mendelstrom yes um uh well there's going to be a documentary uh colonel holt's involved uh sergeant penison's involved uh do you want to get involved that's how it kind of worked now what would happen is that they'd ring up holt and go uh would you like we're doing a documentary and you're supposed to about rendelstrom uh would you like to get involved our consultant. Yes, says Colonel Holt. Who do you want to be in the show? Because they don't have a bloody clue. Researchers don't have a clue. They're young women, young men, first jobs, the students, they don't have a clue about the subject. So they're just like blind leading the blind. It's not like a political investigation where you've done a degree in politics to end up doing research documentaries. It's not like that at all. So they literally ring up and go to the likes of Holt, Penniston, Burroughs and say, who do you want to be in the show? Well, who's not going to be in the show if you want to change the narrative? And that's literally what's happened over the last 30 years. And there's one other person that gets heavily involved, Nick Port, the man in the ministry. And there's a chapter in my book. There's nothing malicious in it. Everything I put is true. He claimed to be a UFO researcher. He was not He was never a UFO researcher He was not a trained investigator in terms of being a researcher he just happened at 24 years of age to get landed at the mod ufo desk which was a single person office reporting facility for the mod so um literally somebody sees something they either tell the nearest military base or they ring the police and say i've seen this basically either way the police would fill out a little mod form a little pro forma form and then in the old days telex it fax it to the mod it all went to this little mod office and they would supposedly investigate or respond in correspondence to the person making the report that's what nick pope went into 24 years of age he did not run any department at all ever ever and certainly not when he was 24 he was there between the ages of 24 and 26 nobody runs a department of that significance at that age so he was basically an admin guy dealing with the correspondence that were coming now he would say that i investigated about 300 cases a year for the three years that i was there well technically you did because there'd be about 900 reports trouble is 90 of those reports and we now know this through the freedom information act and all the release of the mod documents that happened for a few years a few years ago of which are most people researchers why they've got copies those little pro formas that were filled in very much depended on the person taking the report so if the guy taking the report was mildly interested in what the witness said they would fill it in properly a lot of the times they didn't and it was oh yeah yeah okay one word two words saw light blah blah blah and they were hardly filled in no real details taken so 90 of those 900 cases straight in the bin they're just worthless in terms of investigation he did follow up on some cases like the rendlesham not rendlesham a little bit but more from police officers or pilots then he'd make a call phone calls was ready radar track blah blah blah so he did a little bit that but this is 10% so maybe 90 cases over three years instead of 900 yes so none of that he never left the office he just made a few phone calls he basically wrote to people and said yeah the official line of the Ministry of Defense is nothing of defense significance that's ever occurred in the UK as best And that is basically still the position. 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Yeah, that happens a lot in the UFO community where people have something said about them and they don't correct it and they run with it. No, I'm not disagreeing with you on that. But what I'm saying is because of his position, he emerged into the UFO world, as it were, when he wrote his book, his first book, that was promoted heavily on the BBC, even before it was published. Can you imagine that? Me and you want to write a book, and the BBC, yeah, we want to get an actor in to recreate some of the things that's in your book, before it was even published. That never happened. So he had some help there, and I can't kind of know where that came from. But suffice to say that all I'm saying is that, yes, Nick Port was only 24 he wasn't a trained investigator he then claimed and publicly said it in many documentaries that he's been in that I ran the UFO desk he did not run and subsequent FOI requests of which are listed in my book and other people's have done earlier requests say that no he didn't he was just an office guy and they actually say that of his working week if we think of simple terms, eight hours a day, a Monday to Friday, a 40-hour week, only 20% of his time was UFO-related correspondence. That means one day of the week, he looked at the UFO subject. And on the strength of that, he then made a career as one of the world's most foremost most experts on UFOs, didn't correct it, but actually went further by saying, I ran. He actually said things that he shouldn't have said. He overplayed his position in black and white on many, many documentaries. He said it, I've got clips, blah, blah, blah. And that was deliberately to give in the narrative. If you want to get somebody high profile, we've got the XMOD guy, he ran the UFO desk. And there, though, he can control the narrative of any UFO case in Britain. And Chris, he was based in the States. He became well-known on the US lecture tour. And he became world famous and did loads of documentaries. Now, it's not to have a go at him, but this is the reality, that he, in a sense, was allowed to assume a position where he actually had a great deal of press attention. so if something happened with a pilot case uh in in in the years after he left the ufo desk and he was like the ufo he was in every documentary and they all said to him nick uh in the press there's this uh pilot case what do you think he had straight away access to the media so uh there's this new thing on rendal stream what do you think nick he could influence the media drop of a hat so i think that's not a coincidence and what's not a coincidence is that on nick pope's own page when i was researching the book uh you know like there's all the footnotes and references at the end i found one and it said video of interview of nick pope and i just clicked on it thinking it'd be nothing but it turns out that it's a guy uh just wanting to know a bit of background about Nick Port's life and he said something that that is in the book that I think is really telling uh he said that his dad we knew that his dad worked for the MOD he was a scientist and he worked for the MOD and in a sense he'd encouraged him to join the MOD that's fine but what emerged through this little video clip which I reference in the book is that his dad was not just a scientist he was the top top top scientist in the ministry of defense akin to being the minister of defense he was that high he sat alongside the ministry of defense who was a civilian a civilian could not have the scientist was not a politician so he could not hold the rank so his jewel was to answer to the ministry of defense who was a politician civil servant now that makes you wonder how uh nick port then got on the bbc even before his book came out pre-publicity to make it a success to launch him into the ufo community i can't prove that but it's a i think a pretty good guess but like you say that the book's 500 pages it's very well researched and again folks just a reminder the title of the book is non-human the rendersham forest ufo incidents 42 years of denial and we're not going through every single thing but what you've painted so far is a wonderful picture of how and there's the if you're on youtube there was a picture of it it'll flash up on screen but how a narrative can be created controlled distorted and especially over time how easily that can be molded and as well there's a few things i do want to touch on before we get to listener questions, Gary. Yeah, yeah. The nuclear connection, you mentioned this earlier. It's a very badly held secret that there were nuclear weapons and assets at Rendlesham on those bases underground. However, what's really interesting to me that you've talked about is perhaps the number of nuclear weapons that were present on that base. Can you touch on that for me? Yeah. Obviously, like I say, I had this kind of unique insight into work in sort of a protected nuclear weapons because i did it for three of my six years in the air force place that's why i always suspected there were more witnesses because there'd been rumors of beams being shone down into the bent waters weapons storage area uh we can come on to that with a witness who first-hand witness steve long jared said i was there i saw ufo china beam down into the bunkers and it did a grid light search never had that before until the book until I interviewed him so again you think that'd be six o'clock news especially with Rendlesham you think it's such you know it's such a powerful thing to now I've come you know confirm we've got a first time witness nobody wants to go near it suffice to say right give me the point that you just gave me before and I'll go straight into it what do you want me to explain so just from my understanding when I hear nuclear weapons are present okay there's probably a couple of missiles I don't want to downplay a couple of nuclear missiles but i've heard you say it's potentially was it the most in europe at the time yeah right basically the the nuclear weapons aspect is this whilst researching the book i came across a document that said that bent waters held 25 nuclear weapons so it was a confirmed it was in writing it was allowed to hold nuclear weapons however when i'd first met colonel halt in december of 2007 for a documentary for the history channel ufo hunters with bill burns uh we'd ended up in the pub arriving at the same time in the hotel then going into the there was like a restaurant part we ended up chatting to each other because we weren't required for night filming and i just met him and it was like we were just bouncing off each other and in that conversation he said why i don't know but he said it maybe it was because i was ex-military because i was serving he said there were more nuclear weapons at bent waters than anywhere else in britain that's what he said initially to me and i actually wrote this down in a little book later on because and i still have that book because i wanted to remember as much as he said i wouldn't like to suss him out but i just wanted to remember because things go over your head you quickly forget stuff so i wrote that down i still got it in this little book that i've got then uh three years later uh while we're doing the walk around the forest this came about because the documentary was proposed uh the documentary was a uh being commissioned by a private person with his money brought us all together including nick pope including me including charles holt uh we all went to this big house and did some interviews there we're all in hotels and i'd said to hulk um is there any chance where if we're not required for filming that we can go around the forest and based on your tape recording and see if we conjure up any memories he said yeah okay and my second wife lynn was with me at the time and so we did that we weren't required to film we had a bit bit of spare time so we did that and we did a full walk around of the forest which is about four hours or so the whole thing and intermittently she was recording with his permission uh little clips not specific clips but just anything she wanted on her iphone an early iphone so 2010 so she's not a great camera woman or anything like that so it's all over the place but she would record the odd little clip of which is about 13 different scenes as we're going around and stopping at various locations and she didn't get it unfortunately on the audio but she was with me when he said there were more nuclear weapons at area fentwaters underground than anywhere else in europe which is what you just mentioned so that was the second time and she would happily go to court and take an oath on that whatever that's what happened now so it wasn't the fact that it was allowed to be a nuclear base it was the fact that there were far more nuclear weapons hidden underground at bent waters than there should have been and people talk about why does rendlesham happen in the first place and i say it's all to do with nuclear weapons because a lot of people don't realize the political context of the time in late december 1980 hundreds of thousands of soviet troops soviet not russian soviet troops were massing on the borders of poland why because the polish shipyard workers under lek verwenser who went on to become the president of poland or prime minister president i think uh he was leading a kind of a revolution for free speech and blah blah blah now historically what had happened in the past when countries had started to rise up in hungary and czechoslovakia in earlier years the tanks had gone in and quashed the rebellion just like that so it began to look like the soviet union was going to do exactly the same to poland in 1991 so the hundreds of thousands of soviet troops massing on the polish borders late december 1980 i've always said that that has to be a connection with why ufos turn up at rendlesham because they knew for whatever reason they uh that there were there was a nuclear arsenal there and as we know that there is a 70 80 year correlation between UFOs and all things nuclear we're back to the 1940s yeah anything nuclear so they turn up and what does Steve Longero say he's in the weapons storage area he sees a UFO over the forest that shines a beam down into the nuclear bunkers the hot row of the bunkers was about 300 to 400 metres long bunkers all the way down and he said it did this shining a beam down in an arc as if it was scanning and moving all the way down the 400 meter length it was an inspection of some kind in my opinion can't prove it but that's what it infers that it was some kind of inspection to say what the hell have you got underneath there we want to know and i think that's kind of like when shaman yeah and even it's a bit of a spurious connection but perhaps not but even i remember christopher mellon and the unidentified series was speaking to david marler david marler's one of the world's foremost you know yeah triangular ufos folks check out his book i've interviewed him several times and chris mellon says to him you know the triangles in his opinion they're mapping they're scanning the earth for what he doesn't know you then look at rendel shim you've got this wedge-shaped craft this triangular craft maybe not as big as what we we hear reported in other sightings, but we still have lights, triangles, scanning and mapping, potentially underground nuclear assets. Really interesting. I don't think it necessarily is all disconnected. And on that, something I want to bring back as well, in watching and preparing for this interview, I watched you speak with Ross Coulter on NewsNation, and he brought up to you, and this does go into the speculative, but you didn't shoot it down, no pun intended, that there may have been a psionic asset, and that's a phrase we hear a lot these days, that someone's using some kind of telepathy or their mind, CE5, whatever folks want to call it, to summon UFOs. That may have been something that was happening at Rendlesham at the time. You said there was no evidence directly for that. Is that something that you still hold lightly in terms of it could have been happening, but we don't know, or is there any more on that? I think what well I said something to Ross Coulthard off to prior to my appearance on there where I gave him some information about something that had come my way during my research for the book over the years. And what I will say is, in terms of what you're saying about a psionic psychic event, I don't see any evidence to prove that yet, because nobody in first person has said, I am John Smith and I was involved in psionics or doing some kind of nobody's come on the record and done that people hinting at it and it seems to be a buzzword but like i said there were cam if we believe bustinza and warren then there were cameras there well why would you set up stuff in a field uh unless you thought something was going to happen so it suggests that there's maybe some kind of communication or that because ufos had been seen on earlier nights they thought well we'll chance it we'll set up somewhere but it seems it's it's it's feasible to say it's a it's a it seems an odd thing to do it's it seems to infer a fore mention of uh of knowledge it suggests that that maybe something was not now what i can say is people have said oh it was a military testing of equipment and radars like i said to uh ross on the show that can't be ruled out because that it was a very secret area and it was well associated with early developments of radar from the 40s and the 50s uh it was early developments of nuclear weapons so it was a very kind of secretive place so that's not beyond the bounds of imagination that could have happened the trouble is is a former detector you've got to say is there anything to substantiate that and there isn't now what i said to ross kultad now i'm not going to it to the same depth was during the course of my uh rendersham research a guy who claimed to be a colonel in the u.s air force um emailed me on several occasions uh to say that he was part of a kind of like an experimental radar team, for want of a colloquial term, and that they were using really strange high frequencies and that something happened during one of these tests and something was brought in. Now, it all sounded absolutely kosher. It seemed totally genuine to me. and we exchanged maybe seven or eight emails. I'd thrown loads of questions at him. He'd come back. It seemed all very real. And here's the thing that stopped it in its tracks. I said, well, okay, you now need to prove to me who you say you are. You need to produce to me confidentially details about your military background, who you are, your photograph. I want to see the whole lot. Just for me, I will never reveal it. yeah and at that point he walked away so you have something that's unsubstantiated yeah if he'd have given me his rank his photograph and i could prove his identity and got his permission i would then have used him in the book and reproduced the emails but as soon as i asked him for corroboration validation he walked away never to be heard of again so that's why I didn't include it in the book now I am working on a second draft of the book now and I've got various bits of other information but I've decided that I'm gonna publish those emails of which I sent to Ross Coulthard privately and he was fascinated by them but again he had to accept that it's just a story without the corroboration the name corroboration uh but i would include him and tell the story like i've just told you now because i think that there is now a case for saying well maybe this was something that was going on or hints at something that was going on uh that i can discuss but i'll just say when i asked him for corroboration validation he walked away but it was written in such a way that seemed totally convincing and seemed full of a lot of technical detail way beyond my pay grade that seemed totally bona fide and i got the impression it was true but when it came to it so when i wrote the book as a cold case review you don't really include that much speculation and that's why it wasn't in but now uh three years on i'm working on a second edition and i've got much more other information that's accrued over this last three years, and I'm about to try to find a publisher. I think there is a case for now, put it in its context and show it, because I think people will be fascinated by what the email said, and maybe it might draw out other people who were involved in that scenario, if indeed it happened, to come forward and be named public and say, I am, and that's what I want. I still believe that with Rendlesham there are many more witnesses, maybe a hundred more witnesses who play little or big parts, but other incidents. I confirmed at the end of my book 17 different timed events over not two days, but we're now looking at about a week-long period from the 23rd, probably up to the 29th of December, maybe beyond. We're never going to settle that debate now because of the time that's elapsed. People's memories are not the same. People will remember certain things, vivid things, but not particular dates and that unless you've got something to remember specifically that day, like Steve Wagner had. He said, no, it's before Christmas and he had a remembrance of to why, which I can't quite remember off top of my head, but he did. So that's why I included it because he had a reference point. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Can we fly through some listener questions? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ages now, Gary, and I appreciate you've got a lot and you've covered so much ground as well. As long as you want. Yeah, no, thank you. So listen, loads of people got in touch and it's always a sign of a good show beforehand when so many people reach out to me. So thank you, folks, for that. If I don't get to your question, apologies, but I've got loads of them in here. So Stuart asks, what does Gary think of the information contained in the book, The Rendlesham Enigma by Gary Osborne and Jim Penniston relating to information supposedly downloaded to Penniston when he touched a craft? I deal with it in my book. Basically, I think there's a lot of red flags around it, and personally, I think it's false information. That's the simple answer. The reason why it threw up a lot of false flags is that he didn't mention it for 30 years until the 30th anniversary conference in 2010 at Woodbridge. there is a video of that still floating around to give the reference in the book and people are going what what you why do you never told us this and he said at the time oh well he was going to believe me it sounded crazy blah blah blah trouble is at the same conference believe it or not he actually then went off into a bit of a rant he got a bit angry with the people were asking questions of him and being a bit incredulous of him he actually said that he'd done hypnosis in 1994 and it was contained in a book called glimpses of other realities a book written by linda bolton howe that was published in 1998 and that contains a partial transcript now part of that partial transcript begins with can you see the binary codes under hypnosis well if that's not a leading question i don't know what is so could you implant a memory which is tried to say what's happened to larry warren uh yeah when somebody says can you see the binary cards that's a leading question it's not a real context around it but suffice to say that he said that he didn't know what happened in his interview what ah sorry uh if you'd never been hypnotized and then you came out with something really weird or even when you just come around you go anything happened i can't remember a thing anything interesting come out of it human knowledge interest would do that and they'd say well actually i think you should listen to it it was on video so he'd listen back to it human curiosity and go mine records i thought what was buying records you see what i mean so you can't then say i didn't know anything about buying records when it actually found out about it and it got to have found out about it in 1994. so how can he tell an audience in 2010 at the 30th anniversary he didn't know anything about mine records so that's a red flag then he went on a show called the angela joiner radio show sadly she's not with us anymore but that this was done 10 or 11 days after that appearance at the woodbury conference so it's i think 11 12 january uh 2011 and uh he's all over the place and it's like if you listen to that which you can still uh listen to and it's on youtube uh he's saying i knew what it was all the time yeah it's time travelers from the future what you just said you didn't know what it was yeah and the other thing that for me doesn't work as a former detective is he said that he wrote he was compelled the next day having touched the craft feeling the download I do believe he touched the craft but he was asked that question in various documentaries over the years and interviews in magazines and he'd said i just took the craft and that was it why didn't he mention it then all these years later he didn't mention it and then and then suddenly in the documentary i've had this download of zeros and zero ones felt so compelled the next day i had to write it out almost like i'm exercising a ghost i've got to write it down i didn't know what they were uh and they stayed in his pocketbook all those years until John Burroughs, whilst making the documentary about Rendlesham, he gets his pocketbook out and John Burroughs says, what's those? When he's flicking through the pages. And he goes, well, I wrote them down, but I didn't know what they were. John Burroughs goes, well, that's binary code. What's binary code? It's a ludicrous kind of situation. I'm not saying John's lying, because I think that's the story he gives, and who's to say that that's not true? but what I'm saying is the Jim Pennison side to me doesn't add up he's a genuine witness to he did see, he did go into the forest no doubt about that, what he saw the small triangle, don't disagree with that at all, but this story of having this download of information of which they then say were time travellers from the future 8,100 years in advance planetary exploration gives loads of coordinates around the world including the High Brazil, which is a mythical island off Ireland, including the Giza pyramids, blah, blah, blah. They then subsequently wrote another book all to do with these chords and whatever. One of the things that happened is that he said that there were originally six pages of binary chord. And then I'd heard him on other shows saying there were eight pages, there were 10 pages, there were 12 pages. I think I'd know. If this was the defining moment of your life and somebody said to you, well how many pages of binary code did you write down even if you genuinely didn't know the answer to that question the first time it was asked which is feasible you'd go well hang on a minute there's uh 16 pages but he'd already said there were six or eight there were 10 once you'd asked once you'd actually physically gone through your pocketbook and counted them for yourself I guarantee you the way your mind would work, given the level of importance of this incident, you would not forget how many pages you knew. And he was inconsistent with the pages. So the first time somebody says, how many pages? I don't know. Oh, there were eight. Eight pages. He'd never forget eight. Because other people would ask him, I've done that. Eight. Yeah. No, it kept changing. And it turns out there were 16 pages. Huge red flags. So for me, and it's in the book, I had a Facebook online conversation with Gary Osborne, his co-author, and he had to admit that it's a standalone account. There is no corroboration to the binary download at all. No corroboration. So it's a bit like me saying, I had a dream in the night, and actually I'm Jesus reborn. So you're all now my subjects. yeah is anybody going to believe me some people probably would these days the vast majority wouldn't because it's a standalone account there is no corroboration and that's i'm not saying you can't have downloads or information i think you can under various guises not just ufo related but what i'm saying is in this incident the story is inconsistent he has made a lot of contradictory statements early on when it all came out and And for me, it's a lot of red flags. So I would err on the side of caution, say there's no corroboration, and I personally think it's made up. Again, that's something quite often in the UFO community. I think a big thing recently has been the Chris Bledsoe story, where more and more folks are scrutinising the initial story, the initial incident, the experience, and then what's been added on and tacked on to that as time's gone on, the heavy religious angle. Folks, and I'm not saying this, and folks are referring to it as more and more like a cult, the way things are going, the information being presented one way when there's a lot of Starlink satellites being posted in aircraft. Yeah, that happens quite often in the UFO stories where there's a bastardization of an incident. And it's not to say the original story didn't happen, but for multiple reasons, things change. Yeah, correct. That's a good summary. Chris asks, and he does some selfless promotion, here and I'm going to let him away with it. He has a book out called The Citadel Directive Folks. I would encourage folks to go and check that out by Chris Stokes. I've not touched on it yet, but I'm going to get to it at some point. But it touches on a fictional UK crash scenario and he really wants to know your take, Gary, on if a genuinely unknown craft came down in the UK today, do you think there are established protocols for how the police, the military and the government would handle it or would they have to improvise? I think the probably answer is yes there are probably very secret protocols at the highest level of the police and the Ministry of Defence but I guess it would depend on how and where it happened if it's in an ultra remote place the local police might get there and they're not going to be aware of any of these protocols they may do things legitimately and treat it like well someone's crashed we'll just call the army so then sooner down within a few hours a story would emerge the question that you've got is what happens if it happens in daytime or near a populated area where loads of witnesses we're into we're into we're into the other side of you followed with ufology which is kind of the disclosure angle and i'm obviously privy and know a lot of the people involved in that world with you know i have lots of discussions at high level on that but what i'm but what i'm saying is there are things that could happen but it depends on the circumstances um so if something you know like people say well what could cause disclosure now carnell said we're now maybe looking at a catastrophic disclosure something happens involving uap uh that saw their cat be contained by the media by the authorities it's happened i've always said that if the phoenix lights happened that happened in 1997 happened again this time we've got 4k 8k cameras we've got live streaming media everybody would start live streaming this was seen for several hours maybe 50 60 000 people on its route before it stopped over phoenix so people it was seen low over little hillsides and mountains if that was to happen again there's a good chance the authorities could not contain the media that would be created because everybody would jump on the live streaming and they simply could not control it in 1997 they could now if we take the point to what you're saying in the uk if there was a crash well it would depend on how it was and where it was as to whether you contain that you see what I mean because if it was in the town now for example in 1954 a lot of people don realize this but there was a football match a professional match playing in the Italian League where a UFO was seen over and stopped over the pitch you know, 200 or 300 feet up. It stopped the game. Everybody's looking. The crowd are looking. Several international players were on the field. They've corroborated that this incident occurred, and then it often flew away, a typical kind of flying disc. now if that incident happened on the sky sports i wonder what would happen because there wouldn't be a protocol then they'd probably film it and they're all what's that and then somebody'd say cut the feed and whatever stop the footage but lots of people will be going live streaming well what the fail is it's the f8 goal final what is that you see what i mean so it's a question of how and the circumstances of how. But it's entirely feasible that the police, at very highest chief constable level, are privy to a set of protocols and the senior ranks of the Ministry of Defence, etc. And is that fair to say, and just to play devil's advocate, and I always like to be impartial where I can, that you wouldn't even necessarily have at that highest level the conversation be around a non-human craft, especially in 2026 it could just be an unknown craft and you would assume chinese russian it could be a high craft come down in the fields near leeds get there cordon it off take it away whatever never to be seen again which is classic retrieval we know now through if we accept legacy programs and reverse engineering programs, which there's more and more people coming forward to say that that is a reality, that these squads, for want of a better word, these teams are probably in each country. And certainly I would think the SAS may be getting involved at some point, our highest level best forces getting involved under American lead, I would think, because we're all part of the five eyes. We're very close. even though the UK is very very backward now on the UAP phenomena and are totally at odds with everything we've ever done with the Americans because the Americans have gone much more open legislation being passed more legislation trying to be passed in the states well in the UK it's like going back to the 50s we're all laughing at it and whatever well behind the scenes that we know that that's not the case because freedom of information requests have established it in I think May of 2023 that a UK representative spent a full day getting UFO, UAP briefed at the Pentagon along with other Five Eyes nations. So there's a public face, as there has always been, and there's a real behind-the-scenes face which treats it very seriously. Leeds wouldn't be bad for a crash retrieval. I can get there in about an hour and a half. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can get there in half an hour. Yeah, cracking big services down that way as well. That I quite like. so yeah um john asks and this is a book that's coming out in june so i don't know if you've seen this yet um what is uh your opinion on the release and potential impact of jonathan kaplan's kc's book not for disclosure ufos the world's best kept secret due for release in june it's a release tent um as its release a tentative toe in the water by the british establishment and will it refresh attention towards the writings of lord hill norton sir peter horsley etc i don't really know anything about it um suffice to say that anything that claims to be doing that i'll look at it and and give an opinion then but at the moment i have no opinion on it yeah i don't yet either i've had a few folks send me links to it to see this book's coming out i don't know who ran the uf u.s uh task force on uap he's got a book coming out uh and he's recently for the documentary the age of disclosure said in the trailer i have seen non-human bodies and non-human craft well that's a pretty if somebody's gonna know he's gonna be the guy that knows so again i wait with the anticipation for his book absolutely um still no information on that yet either folks but obviously we do know lou elizondo has a second book coming out uh reckoning before that which is surprising he's got another book coming out before stratton's even gets released um little melly says is there any evidence or stories of BAE systems involvement in the UAP phenomenon? BAE systems? Yeah. Not that I'm aware of. Not that I'm aware of. I'd have to reread these emails that I've just alluded to from this guy who was a radar specialist, an American radar specialist, but I wouldn't think that they'd be using BAE equipment if they were Americans. Mark asks, as a Londoner myself, The UEP topic is far too quiet here in the UK amongst politicians. Is it possible that the US do not share Black Project programmes with the UK? And if so, what do you think the reasons could be? I think it's entirely feasible that Starmer doesn't have a clue, because he'll come and go. It's the old thing about, do all presidents know? Do they ever need to know? And the old civil servants are there for 30, 40 years. Presidents come and go. I doubt that Starmer is fully briefed. I suspect that his defence ministers would have more briefings on it. But whether there's a full need for him to know, I doubt it. I think there's a lot going on behind the scenes. I've spoken to Luis Elizondo in the past, and he's alluded to things going on in the UK behind the scenes. And he's kind of a guy that would probably know. we know recently the Bank of England there's a recent article by a lady called Helen McCaw who used to work for the Bank of England she's done another article she first came about talking about UFOs and the Bank of England and we need to prepare for how the currency might be affected by an announcement that we're not alone she's just written a letter to the current Bank of England and that was recently publicised in an article. So that's, you know, things are going on in the background. It's a question of what's going on. I also know that things are going on in certain European countries behind the scenes about airspace and maybe adopting a set of guidelines to deal with UAP, which is at the moment non-existent. I, in February 2024, I launched a website, an initiative called UK Pilots Reporting UAP. I put press releases out. I wrote to aviation publications and organisations asking them about, can we try to get a coordinated reporting system? No response, no response from the mainstream media. They won't go near the story. so that says to me that this is UFOs in this country at the moment there is a definite downer at the moment to good UFO stories A couple more points here one from Rob, he says I've been fascinated by the Todd Morden incident for years now, has there been any further insights into this case in recent times? When I first retired from the police in 2013 I did a lot of research on it and also around 2002 2003 I launched the database of police officers in January 2002 and I'd met I soon met Alan Godfrey I then researched his story for about 18 months I ended up writing a fictional film screenplay such was I thought this is really cinematic one of my private passions in life is the cinema and I dabble at writing and I've written five amateur full length screenplays one of which is about Alan Godfrey's story because I thought that it was such a good story that would come across well in a documentary in a film scenario or a play for today that kind of thing Alan's story is a really good genuine case never been adequately explained and it's a mysterious thing, the Todmorden aspect comes from the fact that Alan Godfrey had his own sighting in November of 79 and it had it was a great, great case but he was also the same officer who went to the scene of a mysterious death on a coal heap in Todmorden at a railway yard. And the story goes that when he got there, the body was atop of a coal skip on its back. There was no shirt on the person. It was like it was taken off. There was still money in his pocket, so robbery wasn't a motive. But he was laid on his back dead. There was a strained substance on his neck that was never identified. And that has been actually corroborated by the coroner of the inquest into the death who said on camera for a TV documentary that the substance was sent away for analysis and was never identified. So that's a pretty good thing from James Turnbull, who was the coroner of that inquest. And he basically said that if somebody told me that it was UFO related, I wouldn't be that surprised. That's the way he kind of phrased it. nothing new has come that's emerged down the line, no new witnesses have come forward, that kind of thing but to me it's a very valid case and it's got some mysterious aspects to it but Alan Godfrey's own encounter was an excellent case that's still unexplained Gary, I've got one more listener question and then what I'm going to suggest is, I've got loads of stuff still to ask you but I'm going to run out of time because I've got to do some football coach trips with my little boy. What I was going to say was, I'll ask you this coming up question, but if you could come back on in the near future, it'd be great to go through some of the cases in the database, talk about your work at the press club, the Brazilian Senate, all that kind of stuff, because there's so much there. I don't want to just skip through it just now. So we'll arrange that separately. But right now, let's finish off with this question because you've been brilliant with your time, Gary. From Rick, he asks, with the way the majority of the world handled COVID-19, can we say for sure the majority of the world can handle disclosure and if so why um i totally think that we can handle disclosure the world's moved on a lot uh from say the 60s there was a very famous study done uh that was published in the brookins institute report about 1960 when it was released and basically it asked the question what would be the effect on society if there was disclosure. And they basically said, well, there might be economic chaos, religious chaos, and people will be screaming in the streets kind of thing. And so therefore they decided not to think that it was a good idea. I think we've moved on from there. We now live in a world of incredible technology by human standards, with smartphone technology and whatever. Most people play science fiction-based games. they talk that you know we have a huge genre of science fiction films and it's part of our dna now so i actually think that if disclosure happened tomorrow 20 of the world's population may be very frightened because those people would probably be frightened by anything a bit like covid you know people it's the end of the world that kind of thing there will be some people that will be adversely affected and suffer with mental health trauma but i suspect that the 80 of the world would just think, wow. It depends on when it happened. If they said there's an invasion, then there might be panic. But if they just said that we confirm that there's life and that we think that these things are real, it's non-human intelligence, we're not sure where they're from, but we're now convinced that we're dealing with some other intelligence. I think under those circumstances, people would still go to work the next day because they've got to earn a living. The world's not going to stop. So I think the world's moved on now. I think we're in a place where we could handle it depending on the scenario if somebody said there's going to be an alien invasion in 2028 we've got good information then that might be different and you wouldn't disclose it or you'd deal with it in a different way but if we're just talking about are we confirming that there's life out there we're dealing with something whether it be interdimensional non-human intelligence extraterrestrial which i still think the majority is based on the contact phenomenon and the four species that eric davis has recently confirmed the nordics the greys the insectoid the reptilian he mentioned that in a congressional ufo disclosure fund uh meeting you know uh in congress so it's it's incredible so i think we can deal with it and the world will generally go on but there will be a certain percentage of people who will initially be very traumatized by it and may remain traumatized by it well gary the book non-human the rendlesham forest ufo incidents 42 years of denial is available on amazon is that the best place for folks to get it it's the only place you can get it because there's a story in itself in that is i chose to self-publish because i wanted to get the information out there and if i'd have flagged up and said my book is coming out with so and so and so and it's going to be released on such and such a day i have no doubt that some people would have tried to stop my book coming out they wouldn't have had a leg to stand on but the legal situation could have slowed it down temporarily halted it blah blah blah such is the way that the case has been controlled in the narrative that's what i maintain i think there's a lot more witnesses out there who deserve to have their stories told so if you really want to know about these 17 different time incidents and the other events that have witnesses that i've interviewed then i'll send a link and you can get it on there but i self published because i knew that there was no pre-publicity whatsoever whatsoever who releases a book with no pre-publicity would you do that over your book you didn't know you were doing pressing it say it's coming out it's coming out i didn't because of the subject matter and i knew that once I pressed that button, once 50 people got hold of that information, if nobody else ever bought the book, the information that was in there, that was explosive, was never been told on TV, never been told in documentaries, it was out there. And so that's why I self-published. Well, listen, Gary, let's catch up again soon and we'll go over that database. We'll talk about your work with the press club, your time in Brazil, the work with ICER. There's a whole lot of stuff to cover there and no doubt some more Rendlesham as well. Yeah, no problem. That's all. Thank you very much. That's all for this episode of That UFO Podcast. Thank you so much for listening and watching. If you enjoyed the show, please follow, subscribe, and leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps others find the show. If you're watching on YouTube, hit like, subscribe, and turn on notifications so you don't miss future episodes. You can also support the show directly and get early access, add free episodes and bonus content on Patreon, or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube memberships. All the links are over at thatufopodcast.com or in the show description below along with merchandise and more. Don't forget you can also pick up a copy of my book Atlas of Unidentified Flying Objects available now in all good bookstores and through online retailers including Amazon. Big thank you again to all of you for listening and tuning in. Until next time, keep looking up, you never know what you might see. It wasn't a tic-tac and not quite a saucer, more like a hubcap designed by Chaucer, a little baroque and quite steampunk, like Alice was playing bass for the Parliament of Falk. The little fucker hubbard right outside of my window and when I shoved out the screen he made it an issue. I don't think he expected me to see his ass, but I'd had some champagne and smoked a little bit. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side. Starting a business can be overwhelming. You're juggling multiple roles, designer, marketer, logistics manager, all while bringing your vision to life. Shopify helps millions of business sell online. Build fast with templates and AI descriptions and photos, inventory and shipping. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at shopify.nl. That's shopify.nl. It's time to see what you can accomplish with Shopify by your side.