Top Movie Moments (with Glamorous Trash)

Hello, it's Giovanna, the host of Happy Mum, Happy Baby, and my podcast is brought to you by Vanish. Let's be honest, no one has time to wait around for a long wash cycle. In my house, laundry has to keep up with real life, whether that's school uniforms for tomorrow, sport kits for tonight, or those totally unexpected spills. That's why I'm loving the new Vanish Turbo. Vanish is designed for quick washes, lifting stubborn stains, and tackling odours in just 30 minutes, so every short cycle delivers a proper deep clean. It has boosted oxy action with a unique accelerator that worked super fast, and it's chlorine bleach free, so it's safe on everyday fabrics and colours. Vanish Turbo is in stores now and is a total game changer. Hi, Donna here calling from Azaparquoial, and if you're familiar with anything like mine, the fridge is always getting raided. We've got you, Donna, because Azda has an incredible £2 for £5 on a range of fridge favourites. Like a six pack of apple and raspberry muller rice, Lerpac slightly salted spreadable butter, and a 1.5 litre of Tropicana smooth orange juice. That's a fridge full of favourites. That's Azda price. Selected stores, subject to availability, Lerpac 400g excludes Azdexpress and small stores at azda.com slash small stores. Welcome to a special collab episode. I'm Chelsea Devantes, host of the celebrity memoir and viral article recap podcast called Glamourstrasch, and I'm here with my absolute faves. Lizzie? Oh, that's us! That's us! Yes, here we are, your faves. I'm Lizzie Bassett. Just realized I have something in my teeth, which should tell you everything you need to know about me. I'm one of the hosts of What Went Wrong. Here with my co-host Chris Winterbauer and Chris, what is our podcast about? Our podcast is about how every movie is a miracle, including, and especially the bad ones, because they are so goddamn hard to make. As I'm sure we will discuss today through some fun stories from some tragic fun and horrifying everything above memoirs. Yeah, what is better than a holiday bonus episode in the theme of tragic, horrible, but fun drama but still having fun, but also yikes. Feels right for this year, right? Yeah, isn't that Mel Brooks? Isn't that his quote, the tragedies when I cut my finger, comedies when you fall through an open manhole and die? That's what these movies and these memoirs are for us. Absolutely. I'm a huge fan of your podcast for many reasons, but our podcasts have a lot of crossover in subject matter, even though we cover entirely different things. We've actually read a lot of the same research material in some of these celebrity memoirs. Sometimes I think of our podcasts like Fine Wine Parings, but you're the Chardonnay and I'm the Flaming Hot Cheetos that you eat with the Chardonnay. You all covered glitter and not production and everything that went into it, and then we covered that and everything else because we read Mariah Carey's memoir. We also covered stories like when she had to escape her mansion that she lived in with Tommy Metola and go get fries with DeBrat, and it was her first time out of the house in years, and how that type of thing led to what happened in glitter. I love that. I think Glamorous Trash really provides an important source of material, Chelsea. Don't downplay yourself. Also, you could swap the titles of our podcasts and they would still work for either of us. Yes. Absolutely. What went wrong could be the title of every single memoir that I've covered. Okay, so also, Chris, you are a filmmaker yourself. You've directed two feature films, Worm and Moonshot. I also just directed my first feature. I am eight weeks into the edit. Congratulations. Thank you. Every day is a miracle, as you said, and I've gotten so much insight from your podcast and also reading these books. So I'm thinking that later into these moments, we can maybe pull out some themes that actually helped us make movies from some of these crazy stories we've read. Sure. Okay, cool. So, the first part of this episode is going to be our highlights and anecdotes, maybe like 10 or 12 of them, of stories about making movies that come from memoirs that you just have to know. And our first moment is going to come from the movie A Star is Born. You covered on your podcast the Bradley Gaga version and I read 900 pages of Barbara Streisand's memoir who did another version of A Star is Born, even though that was also a remake. What was one of your highlights from A Star is Born episode? Because I got to tell you, Barbara talked some shit on the Gaga version in her memoir. In print, she talked shit. What did she say? Just give me a little brief teaser of what Babs had to say about this. So she felt as if Gaga and Bradley Cooper ripped off her and John Peters' version. That's right. I forgot about that. Because they were the first A Star is Born remake to make her a singer, to make them all singers, whereas in other versions, I guess they were just actors. And also, so she felt like, oh, this was such a ripoff. And then in her book, she said, I thought there was going to be a version with Beyonce and Jay-Z where it's hip hop. And that would have been really cool. And they should have done that version instead. And instead, they sort of ripped off what me and John Peters did. Look, listen, I love Barbara. I do not want Barbara after me because I'm scared of Barbara as I think we all probably should be. But from what I remember from that research, it was a pretty cool thing. Pretty natural progression into this version of the story. Like you have the Judy Garland version, which, yes, that is Hollywood. That one itself is actually a remake. And that one, of course, is a musical. That's where the musical is introduced. Every version of this movie is an iteration on the previous version. And they're just going to keep making it. Like I guarantee you there will be another Star is Born. It was the first movie that David Selznick made as part of his Selznick International Pictures in, like, 1935 before Gone with the Wind. So, Bebs, what are you smoking? This is the least original property in Hollywood outside of adaptations of the Bible. So it's absurd. There was obviously a Beyonce version in development that kind of became potentially this version, Liz, you can speak to that more. Can I tell you, because this is honestly my highlight from this, I think, just because I cannot wrap my head around what this would have been. Yeah. There was a version of this movie that was not going to be Beyonce and Jay-Z. No. OK. It was going to be. I just want you to prepare yourself emotionally for this, because it was going to be directed by Nick Casavetes, who directed the notebook, and it was going to star, yes, Beyonce, but Beyonce opposite who? Chris, do you remember this? No, I don't remember this. Who was it? It's fought and round the world. Russell Crowe. That's right. It was going to be Beyonce and Russell Crowe. Who was in a band? Who was in a band called like the Romba Stompas or whatever it was. I don't remember what they're called, but he like played shows in Italy. I believe while he was shooting the Pope's exorcist and driving around on his little Vespa. I love Russell Crowe. I do, too. Ride your Vespa, Mr. Italian accent. Wow. Say what you will about. Well, man, I'm really going to step in in this episode. I don't think Beyonce is an amazing actor. I think she's obviously insane musician, businesswoman, everything else. Lady Gaga is legitimately a good actor, which I do think you really need for this role. I would I have watched a Russell Crowe Beyonce version of this? Absolutely. Oh, yeah. Do I think it would have been good? No, I don't think that would have been good because I'm not sure they would have chemistry, but more so like I don't want them to have chemistry like in my bones. And like, I hope they wouldn't have had chemistry. The only person worse than Russell Crowe, actor in a band who could have been in that movie is Jeremy Renner. He's in a band. Oh, you don't know? Yes, he's in a band. I never downloaded his app, so I guess I didn't get the update. Yeah, it's like camping tools. Yeah, the Renner app, like get updates on what? Just him on Just Him. I got to tell you my highlight from Babs Memoir on her version of A Star is Mourn, which I think you covered a little bit, is John Peters, who is a hairstylist who upon their first meeting slaps Babs ass and is like, you have a nice ass. And she's like, we should be together. And then he's like, great, I should be a movie producer. Neither of those things should have happened. He becomes the producer on A Star is Mourn. They model the character after him somehow. But my favorite part of this story is that he's a hairstylist. Do you remember Babs haircut in that movie? Yeah, he must not have actually liked her because it is. Hated her. Yeah. Yeah, that is the worst possible hair anyone could have. But what's crazy is like he ascended beyond her. You know, he was the head of Sony. This is insane. He was given a I believe like Peter Cooper. This was the 90s. This was like 1991. He was given two hundred million dollars with Peter Cooper and they like absconded from Columbia. I can't remember the exact details, but it was insane. This rise and his rise was really he got on Barbara Streisand's shoulders and jumped from there. Like she really gave him his first credits, even though he shouldn't have had it. And then I don't know if you remember this. Did you ever read a headline where a man gave Pamela Anderson twelve million dollars to marry him and she was married to him for like maybe 10 days and then it gets an old. No, that was John Peters. So he took all of that money and tried to buy Pamela Anderson into marrying him, which we read in her memoir. Cool guy. He also had some Me Too stuff around him too, right? Oh, yeah. John Peters. Yeah, I mean, I assume, but I also I think he's got a lot of I think I mean, Barbara Streisand. He had to pay a former assistant quite a bit of money. I think like three million dollars. Yes, he did. Barbara writes scathing things that he did to her and the memoirs, including that hair, including that hair. I mean, he just left those curls dangling an inch too long to just really ruin everything. We'll put pictures on the Instagram. OK, our next movie memoir moment. Let's talk about Jennifer Gray's memoir and Dirty Dancing, which I think is one of the greatest production stories of all time because of what a huge hit it was when it was up against so many obstacles. Chris, it certainly gives me hope at night that anything is possible. Do either of you have a favorite tidbit from Dirty Dancing? I mean, the most inappropriate thing to happen on set was Patrick Swayze pulling his penis out to make Jennifer Gray laugh while they were driving their car. And it worked. She laughed really hard. Yeah. Yeah. So what does that say about Patrick Swayze's penis? All right, Pete. Yeah, my God. Oh, acting, method acting. You got to pull out that pain if you want to get a nice laugh, especially when they kind of, you know, they were back and forth frenemies hating each other on that set. Yeah, I think that was my favorite thing researching this episode, because I think the thing everybody's probably familiar with is that, you know, they did not get along or they didn't like each other. It's more complicated than that, which I'm sure you can speak to from having read her memoir. But I didn't realize that their beef does not begin on this movie. It had gone back to Red Dawn, which they both starred in. That was an early big project for her. And he was a dick to her on that. And, you know, he showed up like wasted, I think, to shoot the scene that she was most excited about, because it was one of the only non-action sequences in it that was supposed to be like a love scene between them. And he was so drunk, he couldn't remember his lines. So, you know, John Milius is like, we'll get this later. And they never get it. So she never gets to do it. And then like the night before her big death scene, he and some other guys were just shooting firecrackers off outside her door. So she had a really bad taste in her mouth from him when entering dirty dancing. And I think she actually begged them to please not cast him in dirty dancing. But, you know, it was really hard to fill that part. They did not have a lot of money. They needed someone who was essentially a professional dancer, but also a really good actor and also either straight or could believably play straight. Small target. You got like, I don't know, three, four options at that point. And Patrick Swayze just absolutely crushed it. He means so good. Yeah. He's so good. And I don't want to like dunk on Patrick Swayze, because I think he was a very complicated person and he just worked really hard. And I think he would even admit that he was not good to her on Red Dawn. Yeah, yeah, it was just that's an interesting, really interesting episode. And Jennifer Gray is so interesting. I totally agree. Mites had been to add to this actually comes from Kelly Bishops memoir, the third girl who plays the mom. And in her memoir, she talks about getting cast as one of the dancing students. They're like, great, we're going to fly you out three weeks early. She's like, what are they flying me out so early for? What's happening? This must take a lot of dancing and she gets there and they're like, you're the mom. Congratulations, you've been cast as the mom. Didn't go through her agents, didn't go through her reps, just got her to set. And you know, it is a huge upgrade and a role for her. But that's how much the production was on fire. Didn't even let her know who she was playing till she got there. Well, it was beyond that too, because Chris, I don't know if you remember this, but there was someone else cast to play the mom and she got sick. Like two days into filming and because they had so little time to film this and so little money, they were just like, oopsies, so sorry that you're ill. You're out of a job and we're flying Kelly Bishop out early. But didn't tell Kelly. I assumed she was a big name by that point, or at least decent size. Like because of, again, I was coming from some Gilmore Girls experience, I figured, oh, Bishop must have been an established actress. She was well into her career, you know what I mean? At that point in time. But no, this was that. You said big role. She's great, really authoritative in a good way. And like you cannot tell that this was not the first choice when you're watching her. Yeah. Yeah. And she'd really been cast to dance, which is funny because she doesn't end up dancing. So I have another Jennifer Gray story about another movie that maybe you will cover one day. And it comes from her memoir, a little movie called The Wind. Have you heard of this nugget shot in 1991, released in 1992. Jennifer Gray gets a second nose job. She's a little bit coy about it in her book, but she doesn't really get the nose job. She's like, I was just fixing a little thing that had happened from a previous one. And when she comes out of surgery, she's like, oh, my God, my nose looks entirely different and people don't recognize her. She hadn't finished shooting The Wind. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I heard about this. She goes back on to set. And this is how she walks on to the set where they have shot almost an entire movie with a different looking person. She wears Groucho Marks glasses, you know, where it's like the fake nose and the mustache and the glasses. And she walks on with these glasses, a little fake nose, and she's like, ha, ha, Prank, it's me. And then she takes them off and reveals, hey, I look totally different. And then when the movie came out and bombed, the director, Carol Ballard, very publicly said it was because Jennifer Gray got a nose job and she couldn't shoot the movie well and blamed it all on her. And that's like one of the last big, big things that Jennifer Gray does. You can't throw your actress under the bus like that. I mean, it sucks. She shouldn't have done that from a logistical perspective. I empathize deeply with Carol Ballard in that instance. But at the end of the day, like as a director, I do think the most important job is to protect your actors in so many ways. And to do that is so brutal. Melanie Griffith's similar thing happened on Bonfire of the Vanities, which we did cover where she. I don't think this was this big a deal, but she did get breast implants midway through production on that film. And, you know, they OK, we're going to be costuming her a little different. You know what I mean? To possibly hide this during certain scenes. And then there's a love scene where you definitely can't hide it. And it's like, oh, this is a surprise. As Tom Anks is ogling her. But there are issues also caused by the men, you know, Bruce Willis famously. They couldn't light with his stand in because his stand in was not balding. And Bruce Willis was, but Bruce Willis couldn't admit that he was balding. And so they wouldn't bring in a stand in who was balding at this point in time. You know, so it's just things are, you know, Mark Hamill between the first and second Star Wars. That's a very tragic example. He was in that motorcycle accident or car accident. I'm totally. It was a car crash. Car crash and his face is, I think, like markedly different between the two films. They explain it, you know, with the opening scene in The Empire Strikes Back. But it's really tricky. It's really tricky. Speaking of car crashes, too, with Jennifer Gray, I knew she'd had that car accident with Matthew Broderick, who, of course, she was actually engaged to, I believe, at the time. And that's a whole other thing. If anybody listening is not familiar, they got into a car accident with Matthew Broderick driving. It was in Ireland. It was like, I want to say, like a couple of days before the dirty dancing premiere. That's right. And he killed two people. He killed a mother and daughter in the other car. And it was like, I think Jennifer Gray ended up having to have spinal surgery at some point. So like she had a lot of traumas. She had a lot of physical traumas. And to top it all off, all of the articles after dirty dancing were about that car crash for her. They weren't even about her performance, even though she turns it an amazing performance in that movie. Yeah. And, you know, to that car crash, Matthew Broderick was driving on the, it said that he was driving on the wrong side of the road. And the idea being that, like, he was used to driving on a different side of the road in America. However, in her memoir, she very specifically writes that she was looking down and getting the cassette tape during this moment as to never have to, I'm saying this now, as to never have to speak on record as to what happened and how that accident happened because Matthew Broderick doesn't spend time for that and nothing happens to him. And then the last thing I'll say about this, because you brought up the nose job and in relation to dirty dancing, you know, something that I don't think I appreciated about dirty dancing, watching it when I was younger is that in casting Jennifer Gray in that role and also setting it in this resort in the Borch Belt, they are absolutely highlighting a kind of beauty that I think we do not get to see in the female romantic lead very often. And she will say that herself. They were looking for Frances for baby to be a beautiful Jewish looking woman. And that is then the thing that she's told afterwards. If you want to get more parts, you have to fix your nose. And it's so awful. Yeah, I totally agree with you. But I think what her memoir revealed is that, yes, it was the industry. It was actually really her mom. And it was growing up from a very young age where her mom was telling her because she found so much success in Hollywood, never changing a thing about her. Yeah, that's the crazy has been so that you must change this, even as a little girl within her family. So yeah, that's a really sad moment. I love with each of our highlights. We're actually doing like 19. Yeah, sorry about that. Sorry. No, are you kidding me? I'm loving this. I'm loving this. Well, with our last highlight, Chris, you brought up Star Wars and we also brought up boob jobs. Now I have two stories related to both. Which direction should we go in? Shall we go boob job? Shall we go Star Wars? Either one. Childhood Chris is excited either way. You know what? I'll go Star Wars because it kind of involves both. OK, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. Hello, it's Giovanna, the host of Happy Mom, Happy Baby, and my podcast is brought to you by Vanish. Let's be honest, no one has time to wait around for a long wash cycle. 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Backmarkets for the world's shops refurbished tech. Hi, Donna here calling from Azza Park Royal. And if you're familiar with anything like mine, the fridge is always getting raided. We've got you, Donna, because Azza has an incredible two for five pounds on a range of fridge favorites, like a six pack of apple and raspberry muller rice, low pack slightly salted spreadable butter and a one point five litre of Tropicana smooth orange juice. That's a fridge full of favorites. That's Azza price. Selected stores subject to availability, low pack, 400 grams, excludes Azza Express and small stores at azza.com slash small stores. OK, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. In Carrie Fisher's memoir, George Lucas tells her you cannot wear a bra when you are Princess Leia. Can't can't can't wear a bra. No bras. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and sure, you'll be in a gold bikini, which is a bra. But OK, when you're in your white dress, you got to go braless. We got to see nips. And Carrie is like, why? Why can't I wear a bra? And he says there's no bras in space. There's no bras in space. These aren't the bras you're looking for. There's no bras. There's lasers. There's lasers. There's lightsabers. They have not figured out how to hold up. No, they just can't. They float. It's fine. Yeah. Well, you don't need a no gravity. There's no bras. You don't need a bra. Well, then when he hits the third movie, he's like, the bras are metal. They're made of metal. Yeah. And we're just going to chain you up here. They're made of metal. So, yeah. Job of the Hut, Job of the Hut created the skims. That's right. That's right. He created the first bra. And she finally gets to have some support, but she does have to be a sex slave. Well, what's so interesting about this in the first film? Let's leave aside the Job of the Hut sex slave and just the general writing of the third film, and which is a whole separate issue. I think the first movie actually is such a well written action heroine part for Princess Leia outside of the no bra thing. She is presented as a bit of a damsel in distress with her first beacon to help me, Obi-Wan, you're my only hope. She doesn't need saving. And it's one of the best reveals of the whole movie. She grabs the blaster. You guys are doing a bang up job here. You know, shoots the trash, shoot out ghosts. Like she is as much a fighter as anybody else in this movie. I wonder how much that was an impact by Marsha Lucas, who was George's wife and closest collaborator, who edited, very famously, helped him re-edit the Battle of Yavin V, the trench run at the end of the film, and was always the person who was pushing George to embrace humanity and his stories and not focus so much on science fiction and focus more on character relationships. And he loses that, unfortunately, after his divorce with Marsha, which I think was very traumatic for him in a lot of ways. Yeah, I mean, I think there's little boy George, you know what I mean? That's like, there's no boss here. And then there's a more mature person that gets drawn out, maybe by Marsha or the other women in his life that actually can write well-rounded female characters. Yeah. And I love your point about that, because I think that's one of the best writing examples or writing exercises for rom-com heroines on news is Princess Leia, because you can really articulate her character of being like sarcastic and witty and she is comebacks and she's tough in a way that I think often. Now, when you get the note to like write a likeable female character, you kind of end up writing nothing. No, she like one ups Han Solo in every scene. Like that's the bet Han Solo, who has a wisecrack answer to everything, is no match for Princess Leia in a verbal tata-tata in this movie. And that's so exciting. That's so. And he's tongue tied and you're like, oh, he likes her. He likes her. And it's so fun to watch. It really is. It really is. Chris, how much of that was like, I can't remember this, because you know, you covered this one. How much of that was sort of due to George Lucas's influence from his first wife? From Marsha, if any. Oh, well, I think huge, right? So much of that movie was Marsha's influence at the end of the day. And again, I don't want to steal all of the core ideas or are George's. No, of course. You know, he made American Graffiti on a dare, basically from Marsha. He had done THX 1138 and she said, hey, why don't you make something that people, you know, want to go see? And he's like, what, like, you know, a movie about relationships, who wants to watch that? And she says, yeah, OK. And he's like, I could do that in my sleep. And then he goes and does it and she edits it and it's amazing. And it makes a, you know, millions and millions of dollars and is a huge success and George is on the map now. And again, it was Marsha who really, I think, pushed him to find those relationships inside of the story. And she was the one who told him if the audience doesn't cheer when Han Solo returns at the last moment of this movie and saves Luke, we've failed. Like that's what matters. It's not the spectacle. It's the emotional roller coaster. And I do think at his best, George Lucas is so good at that. Again, when he's pushed in that direction, he has it inside of him. But I think he's a little naturally resistant to it. And he kind of needed someone. And then by the time he hits the newer films, unfortunately, for Natalie Portman, he's surrounded kind of by yes men, I think, at that point. And he doesn't have somebody pushing him to explore something more complicated or less comfortable for him. Yeah, very well said. OK, let's move on to the boob job one. Right. Now you covered Starship Troopers. We read Denise Richards, Pamela, and while my anecdote is not about Starship Troopers specifically, but it's about the movie she did right after it, which is Wild Things. So my story comes right in between these two films. My favorite Denise Richards story is that she got a boob job two weeks before Wild Things started, which just doesn't seem like enough healing time. I say that feels medically unsafe to do that. Unsafe because she's also going to be getting in the water. And on top of that, she had in her contract, Wild Things was like, you will be fully nude. And she had negotiated it so that they would just show one boob. So they were like, just one boob is going to be shown. Don't worry. Which boob? Which one? She said there were diagrams drawn up. And so anyway, they end up putting both in the movie because they assume she's not going to take the time to sue them, which she didn't. But even wilder than that, she was still healing. She was still healing. And what is written about beautifully in her book is that she's like, I wish I'd never done it. She had gotten four boob jobs throughout her movie career. First, starting from like, you need to change yourself to become a star. But then they become medically ruptured. They start giving her problems. So each next boob job is to actually heal them or to make them smaller. So she said she kept going in and she'd be like, I'd like a nice B cup. And the doctor would be like, surprise, double D's. Like, you don't know what you're talking about. I just did the boob job for you. And then she would go in and try and remake them and have the same issue over and over again. And so next time you're watching Wild Things, which has a terrible message. I mean, just one of the worst messages in history in a movie. That's now a fun detail for you. Well, it's so interesting and unfortunate about Denise Richards that we talked about on our Starship Troopers episode, and we have not covered Wild Things yet. So first of all, Paul Verhoeven has long denied rumors that he intentionally cast quote stiff actors in Starship Troopers for some reason. He did intentionally cast a lot of very Aryan looking, symmetrically faced TV actors, a number of which were from 90210 in some capacity. But Denise Richards, if you watch her behind the scenes speaking about this movie is about his poised, eloquent, intelligent, maybe a little like malevolent in a cool way, like in a fun housewivesy kind of way. And she's so misused in a lot of these movies where she's playing this Pollyanna ish ace pilot who's kind of just an empty vase. Love interest for Johnny Rico, who himself is an empty vase, you know, per Verhoeven's desire. And you can just see her in like a basic instinct style role or something like that, where she gets to embrace like a fun intervillain or something like that. Drop dead gorgeous. Exactly. Drop dead gorgeous is the great example. This is the best. The best. And it like it stands out to me every time I think about Denise Richards. You're 100 percent right. She is misused in almost everything she's ever in with the definite exception of drop dead gorgeous. She is so good in that she's so funny. And I've heard people say like, oh, it's just like they just used her well. It's just written well. She's got no. That's not what she's like. If you watch an interview with her, she's very much performing. I watched the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills with her and she's one of my favorite housewives. I want her back. That was crazy. I miss her. Must come back and she never will give him. No. Bravo, Bravo, Bravo. I have to agree with you. Bravo, Bravo, Bravo. Drop dead gorgeous. Definitely a top, a top five for me. That is especially, you know, early 2000s, all female ensemble comedy. I still look back at that and can't believe how it was panned when it's something I aspire to. I know. Josie and the Pussycats. Similarly, I think people didn't really understand what it was trying to do at the time. Jennifer's body a few years later, right? It's like they're very subversive and people just think like, oh, what are these girls like doing? It makes me feel weird. Well, drop dead gorgeous is shocking, too. Have you rewatched it, Chelsea? Oh, every single year. But I have a question for you and then I have some tea about drop dead gorgeous. Do you think those movies were ahead of their time, subversive people weren't ready for them or do you think that's when film critics were still majority male as it is now, but there's there's more and that they specifically panned it, not realizing that the audience it was made for women. Fucking loved it. Because what I remember is that those movies were beloved by fans, but panned critically. And that's why I think they have the reputation of not doing well, even though they were quite good for the people it was made for. But I would need to go back and look at like box office ratings. I don't know. None of them did well at the box office. But it's my understanding you may be a hundred percent right on the critical side. I know for a fact nobody could figure out how to market them. And I think they were trying to market them more to men. So for example, if you look at Jennifer's body marketing, it feels like yes, that one is the classic example. They're trying to sell it to 18 year old boys. Yes, because it's Megan Fox. It's Megan Fox. It's insane. This movie should be sold probably primarily to 18 year old girls. And it. Yes. The marketing made no sense. So I would my guess would be you may be entirely right about the critical side. And obviously these movies found their audiences. But I think it was more of like a the marketing team didn't know what to do or the guy heading the marketing team. You know what I mean? Or the studio. I think it's the same issue of like women don't like funny movies. What are we going to do with this and and market it horribly? Because they are so good. OK, here's my tea. I went and saw Drop Dead Gorgeous late in theater and the director happened to show up. Oh, that movie into a little talk back. Jane King or no, that's the writer is one of the judges. Sorry. The writer is Lona Williams. And Lona Williams, after Drop Dead Gorgeous, does sugar and spice. And she hates what the studio does so much to her film that she takes her name off of it and puts it under a pseudonym. And we don't see or hear from her again. And when she's spoken about Drop Dead Gorgeous, she has said, I don't I don't like it. I don't like what they did to it. Which is really because it's such a good movie. Yeah. So I go to this talk back. The director shows up. This is why it's tea and maybe I shouldn't. Maybe she got this. Maybe it's just for us. I don't know. He took all the credit for the movie. He was like, I'm why it's funny. I did this. I did in a way that's like deep. The whole crowd was like, sir, no. But I wonder if that was her experience with him of like this man's taking over this movie. Wasn't he like a contemporary of Michael Showalter and stuff? He was from this. That is the state. The reason I said Jean Kangus, Lona Williams is Jean Kangus. She's the third judge who's like silent, who is the assistant to Denise Richards dad in. So she's in Drop Dead Gorgeous as well. Yeah. That's so interesting. Circling back to Denise Richards. Yes. She's phenomenal in that movie. And they offered her that comedy, No Audition, without really knowing that she could be a comedian like that. And I'm really shocked that she didn't have a huge commuted career after that. I agree. And there are a number of people like that. So well, really quickly, I'm surprised she didn't see the Wild Things team. Also, because she was very good at standing up for herself. There is a good story from Starship Troopers. Paul Verhoeven tried to get her to do a nude scene during production on that movie. And she just said, no, I don't think it's needed for my character. She's absolutely right. And I will say to Verhoeven's credit, he backed off very quickly. That's how she puts it. And she actually has described really loving the experience of working on that movie. It was a really big budget movie. She felt, I think, very well treated and catered to. And there's a very famous nude scene in the film. It's like a coed nude scene, the shower scene, where we see like Dean Amair is nude, for example. And it's like this big, very famous. Although I argued nonsexual, Lizzie disagreed with me. Your audience can tell me what you think. But there's a rumor that Verhoeven, if we're talking about on set nudity, that's inappropriate. There was a rumor that Verhoeven directed the scene naked to make the actors more comfortable, which is kind of an insane logic. Although Paul Schrader, I read, did that on the canyons with Lindsay Lohan. Chris, wait, I just want to pause here. Yeah. What would it take for you to think I'm going to get naked and direct to this scene in my film? No, you I wouldn't. I wouldn't ever do it. I have like so much body shame. I could never, ever like I'm not going to the pool with my crew, let alone getting naked on set. This is ridiculous. I'm also trying to think of like, OK, I'm doing a scene. You know, it's going to make me feel better if I look over and see my director's dick under the camera. Yeah. That I'll feel really good. So apparently Verhoeven and his cinematographer, who are both Northern European, are like teasing the actors, like, oh, you Americans, like you get so uncomfortable with nudity and to which Dean Amara basically kind of challenged him. And she's like, oh, if it's so easy, you do it. And they both looked at each other and then just dropped Trow for a second and then pulled their pants up, at which point Dean Amara said, I really didn't need to see to answer your question. Paul Verhoeven's penis. To be clear, this is a clear workplace harassment violation. You should never take your pants off at your job period. Unless again, you are a performer who is required to do that. Yeah. This is absurd. That does apply to Patrick Swayze, whipping his dick out in the car as well, to be clear. Yes, that it apply. We're honestly, it applies to all of you, unless it is in the contract for Wild Things, where we're really talking about how it's going to go. OK, let me take us to another highlight. This one comes from Rob Lowe's memoir. He has just got cast on The Outsiders, and this was a movie where, like, all the boys, it was like, whoever gets the roles in The Outsiders, we are the new rap hack. Like, we are the boys of Hollywood, and he gets a role. Tom Cruise, Emilio Estevez, and in order to be really good actors and like do a really good job, they would kick the shit out of each other on the sixth floor of The Outsiders, saying that to get... They're like, let's make a fight close. Also, like, y'all, your faces are going to be on camera all the time. I know. But this is when Tom Cruise had, like, the world's worst snaggletooth. So he didn't care. He was like, get it, get at it. And also Rob Lowe, the Denise Richards of Actress. Like, they are the same person. Wait, say more, say more. If you were to design a person using, like, strictly symmetrical shapes, they would both be the... Like, I think they're both, like, fine actors, but are... I don't know. Maybe Rob Lowe is actually... He does not have the villain capability in him, that I guess. No, he does. He does. Have you forgotten about one of the best Rob Lowe parts of all? That's what I was going to say, is that there's a darkness to both Denise Richards and Rob Lowe, and he's at my most favorite, probably, in Tommy Boy, where he plays... Oh, yeah, that's right. And he is so funny in that. Yes. And like Denise Richards, someone is symmetrically perfect looking, who is also a great comedian. That's another rare... Great in Parks and Rec. Yeah. OK, I can see a real, like, brother-sister duo comedy for them both. Oh, they could be siblings. 100 percent. Yeah. Do we need to write something where they're, like, a brother-sister serial killers who are, like, too attractive to be serial killers or something? Brother-sister, former models who are now serial killers. But also a comedy and maybe it's a Chris Do you have a favorite story from Roar? My God, I mean, there are so many to choose from. I guess it's got to be the cinematographer on Roar who went on to, of course, become a very, very famous director. It's Yon DeBont. Directed Speed, probably most famously. Directed Speed, directed Twister. He was scalped on Roar. Yeah, by a lion. By a lion, to be clear, to be clear. But yeah, by an actual lion. And he went back to work. He went back to the set. His assistant did not. His assistant was like, fuck this. Yeah. Left. That movie is so strange. We keep coming back to it and talking about it kind of a lot just because to call it a movie, honestly, is generous. Have you watched sections of it or the whole thing? It's not a movie. I have white knuckled through some YouTube clips, but I can't. I cannot do the movie. It's just a bunch of scenes of like, there's 100 lions and there are five people be like, we live here. And then the lions like grab them and tackle them and maul them. It's horrifying. It's horrible. And that was directed by Tippi Hedren's then husband, Noel Marshall, who is just, I mean, you've read her memoir. He just seems like a cool guy, a cool guy with a same brain. Yeah, a cool guy with a good head on his shoulders that a lion didn't eat. Surprisingly, one of the most disturbing things from that episode is the fact that, you know, they cast their children in this movie because nobody else would do it. And to be clear, the entire plot of this movie is just Tippi Hedren and both her child, Melanie Griffith and his two children are just attacked by lions for 90 minutes as they're waiting for their dad to who is played by Noel Marshall. Because again, they couldn't get anybody to agree to do this, waiting for him to come back. And there is one scene in which Melanie Griffith, you can actually hear her saying, no, no, no. And she is asking him to stop. She's asking him to stop the scene because she's uncomfortable and he doesn't stop. And they kept it in the movie and she got attacked. Yeah. It's so devastating. And I think we can make connections to Tippi Hedren being in the birds and Alfred Hitchcock and basically so brutalized and abused from day one of your career, that by the time you get to your husband, who is absolutely not a director, who wants to own all these lions and direct a movie, you're somehow saying yes to this, which then draws a direct line to Melanie Griffith marrying Don Johnson when she's 14 years old or at least being with him when she's 14 and marrying him later. A hundred percent. And Tippi Hedren literally has said that she married Noel Marshall because she was trying to get away from Alfred Hitchcock. Like she was so disturbed by the experiences she had had with him on the birds. And then I again, on Marnie and she just wanted protection and she's like, I know that's not a good reason to get married, but that is the reason I got married. So that's Hollywood for you. I needed protection. So I married a man who purchased 100 lions and put me in a movie with them. Let's go to something a little more lighthearted now. Hi, we're Backmarket. We sell expertly refurbished tech like phones for talking to your friends or your AI babysitter. Now playing rock a bye baby in style of Norwegian black metal. Either way, this expertly refurbished tech costs way less than you guaranteed by the back market promise, one year warranty and 30 day free returns on every purchase. Up next, twinkle, twinkle, little star grind core remix. Back markets with the world's shops refurbished tech. Good morning. Let the Euro camp holiday commence. What does everyone fancy doing? Bike ride, paddle boarding, bobcue later, water slides and a sick fryer. The medieval town. And what shall we do tomorrow? Euro camp opens the door tomorrow. More fun and adventure right on your doorstep. All at incredible value with one price for the whole family, not per person. Visit Euro camp now for the latest office. Hi guys, it's Jessie and Lenny from Table Manners and our podcast is currently brought to you by Vanish. When did laundry turn into a waiting game? Because in my house, we don't do slow. We need fast, efficient, zero compromise. Which is why we're excited about new Vanish Turbo, the best Vanish yet. It's designed for speed. Vanish Turbo lifts stains and tackles odours in just 30 minutes, turning every quick wash into a deep clean. Think of it as your laundry's pit stop. Stains gone. Odours handled. Freshness locked in. It's chlorine bleach free, safe on everyday fabrics and colours, with boosted oxy action and accelerated technology. It works so fast. Vanish Turbo is in stores now. Trust Vanish for Get Stains. Raise your spirits with another tragic, crazy story. One of my favourites. Have you both seen Fulls Russian? I have not. It is a fantastic rom-com. You must watch it. A gift to you both. It's Matthew Perry and Salma Hayek. Oh, I have seen this movie. Yeah. I think it's worth the rewatch. Listen, I'm saying it holds up, but it's been a minute for me too. But it's just a great, great rom-com. One of my favourites. I'm also from the Southwest. And so I loved it. They're really showing Las Vegas and the dam, the Southwest, and all these parts of the country that are really a part of the movie and the way you haven't seen a rom-com. Probably ever since. Anyhow, though, Matthew Perry, as you might know, what happened with his addiction later in life. Well, the story goes in his memoir that there's a jet ski scene in this movie where Salma Hayek's family has taken them out on Lake Mead and his family, who are these white, waspy people, are melting in the sun and he's going to get on this jet ski. And they bring in a stuntman and Matthew says, you're not doing the stunt. I want to ride the jet ski. And they say, no, no, this is a very expensive movie. You're not riding the jet ski and doing the stunt. And he says, you're not allowed to say no to me. He then gets on the jet ski and with millions of dollars on the line, every crew member watching, crashes it immediately and is taken to the hospital. He then says they give him Vicodin when he is recovering. And that is the Vicodin that he took that led to his addiction. Now, I think there's different facts to say, maybe that wasn't the moment, but that is the story from this really wonderful rom-com that almost didn't make it because he was on Friends and was so powerful, he was like, I will do a flip on the jet ski and you can't stop me and production won't should happen. You know, the reason that production obviously doesn't want him to do it is, A, it'll tank the movie. If he even just gets injured and is out for a day, that could honestly destroy your schedule as you've learned, Chelsea, if you're shooting an independent film, which this was an independent film and you have 22 days or 25 days or 18 days or whatever you have, if you lose one day, you have to make up five, seven pages of material the next day. It's insane. And on top of that, you know, your movie is bonded typically as an independent film or you would have insurance and the insurer, the underwriter, would need to approve of that stunt being done by your lead actor. Otherwise, were something to happen and you were to try to cash in under like the force-majure clause of your insurance contract, they would say, you broke the contract by letting your actor on that jet ski. So again, it comes down to whoever the producer on set was and then below them, the director. This never should have been allowed to happen logistically. Never. I'm loath to pin that blame of his addiction on whoever was on set that day because who could have known. You know what I'm saying? That could have been the butterfly effect. Yeah. I think he was writing it that way, if I'm giving my opinion on the book. I think that's something he put into it, but it was really speaking to his character and time at that point and what he was acting like and how they almost... Like an adrenaline junkie almost. Yeah. So I think this was something that he was already suffering in many ways and he didn't talk kindly about his behavior on the set. He was honest, but he's so good in the movie. You really can't tell, I don't think, that any of that was present when you see the final cut. What's interesting is also Selma Hayek is underrated as a comedic performer because... He's so good. When she, on 30 Rock opposite, I know, problematic things about Alcbald when aside, those two together are so funny on 30 Rock. Yeah. Tell me, Liz, what is A.P. Dagwad? Like, he's so funny and she's so good. And we talk often about actors who are pressured into doing stunts or nudity or something that they are uncomfortable with on set and the problems with that and why you obviously shouldn't do that. And this is an interesting opposite sort of experience where sometimes the actor actually is so powerful. This is one of the most famous actors in the world through Friends, the television show. What, 97? This would have been the fourth season or something like that? Like, this show is enormous. It is everywhere. He's bigger than anybody on this movie. Director, producer, included. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He's what got it greenlit. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, of course. I think Selma Hayek's character in this movie is another great writing example of one what we're kind of missing in modern rom-coms as we see them in terms of lacking specificity. Like, she gets to bring her culture to this role. She's so funny in it. There's so many specifics. She's a real... She's just a real person in the movie. And I think that's what makes it so good. And I can't wait for you all to watch it. Okay, here's my last question for you. And then I want to ask some film stuff. Elizabeth Taylor, Cleopatra. Yeah. Any favorite stories from that one because she did write about that in her diet book slash memoir. What's her diet that she's bitching? Oh, it's called... Getting every disease ever over a period of like three years. Yeah. No, no. She's literally like, it's 800 calories a day, gals. Get on board. It's a little piece of rice. Okay, so she's like in a fugue state. Fugue state. She was writing that book in a desperate financial time where it is so sad because it's our only memoir from her and half of it is like how to put cinnamon on an apple and bake it and pretend it's pie. You know... I can't speak to that. But what's so interesting about this movie is how it was such a rage against the dying light for so many people in... Like Walter Wenger, I believe, is the producer who kind of... He's trying to make this comeback. Walter Wenger, he had been this really successful independent producer back in the 1930s. He was a contemporary of Selznick and Daryl Zanick at 20th Century Fox. And he's trying to make this comeback after he had shot his wife's lover in the crotch in a gun trail. He could come back. And then you have 20th Century Fox. Daryl Zanick has left at this point because television is encroaching and the studios have been decentralized with the Paramount Decree. And so the film industry is kind of falling apart. But you've got these roadshow epics and Ben Herr has proven you can do a period piece, right? You can do a big biblical epic. We're going to remake Cleopatra. We did it in 1917 and the original budget set at 2.9 million and it just keeps growing. And to get Elizabeth Taylor on... And she has no interest in doing this. And she's going through all sorts of personal issues. You know, at this point, she's... Lizzie, she's with Eddie Fisher. Yeah, she just lost her husband, Mike Todd, and is now romantically with his best friend, Eddie Fisher, who the studio has employed as her assistant to keep her, like, off of pills. I mean, she basically says, I'll do it for a million dollars as a joke. And they say, great. And this is the most money an actress has ever been paid and will be paid for 25 years until Sigourney on Aliens. Wow. Yes. And so, unfortunately, it doesn't set a precedent because the movie, I believe, because the movie is such a bomb. She gets, as Lizzie can speak to, she has an abscess tooth. She gets Malta fever. She gets some form of Asian flu. Eddie says he has appendicitis. Turns out he didn't. He just didn't want to be hanging out or taking care of Elizabeth Taylor at a certain point. She gets double pneumonia. She fell into a coma. She got an emergency tracheotomy. You can, like, see the scar a little bit, you know, in the movie. But she's very funny. I had the chance to read my own obituaries. They were the best reviews I ever got. And just in a sign that the women, I think, at this time, really did stick together, she got a Get Well Soon note from Debbie Reynolds, who Eddie Fisher had left to be with her. And, by the way, Carrie Fisher's parents. We should write, you know, also do we think Debbie Reynolds was like, good riddance and have fun? Because that guy sounds like the worst. No, she said, thank you for taking Eddie. There you go. Also, my wife always says that, like, and it's very true, like, when men get sick, it's as if, like, we've been shot. And we, you know, get the flu. And I love that Eddie Fisher is saying, you know, he probably does some of cake and he's like, I have appendicitis. I'm dying. And meanwhile, she's dying from Malta fever. That's right. I got to tell you, we did a Doolene memoir episode. We read Eddie Fisher's memoir and Debbie Reynolds' memoir to compare the two stories. And yet Debbie was not happy. She was devastated. And I think as a way to get the power back from Eddie specifically, she would constantly befriend Elizabeth and even do a movie with her later in life as a way to be like, fuck you, Eddie, who the cover, the cover of Eddie Fisher's memoir, keep in mind, he's husband number five. She wore green. She wore a green dress to the wedding. Oh, dress you'd wear to the office. She wore to the wedding. Good. The cover of his memoir is a picture of him and Elizabeth Taylor. He's married to someone else at this point, and that was the cover of his memoir. So that's who he is. Yes. Well, what's so funny is Elizabeth Taylor then goes to Richard Burton very quickly, like on this production, because nobody's really that interested in Eddie Fisher at this point in time. But what's so interesting too about this is like Elizabeth Taylor is very much the person remembered for this movie, I think, and for its overages. She puts in the movie, though, it's ridiculous. The excess of this production, the amount of money they're spending on food, which we know from her memoir, She Is Not Eating. Well, also, she famously has chili flown in from Chasens in Hollywood to wherever they're shooting. She's saying they're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on these lavish things, but she was generally well liked on this production. And I do want to point out because this ties into my favorite story from Dr. Dolittle. So Burton was not very well liked on this movie, generally unpleasant. Rex Harrison was known, and I will use a word that is not, you can bleep it, but he was known as, quote, the cunt on this set. And Rex Harrison on Dr. Dolittle and his relationship, it's Rachel Roberts. And Rex Harrison are in this, I mean, if you think Elizabeth Taylor was in some mercurial relationships, oh my gosh, Rex Harrison and Rachel Roberts to the point where, so they invited, they're like, let's invite our friends, Elizabeth and Dick, to come and spend some time with us, right? One night, Harrison appalled a room full of the Hollywood establishment, including Billy Wilder and Jimmy Stewart, known like good guy Jimmy Stewart and their wives, went at a party at an LA restaurant, the bistro. He began singing a song about his penis to the tune of I've grown accustomed to her face while Rachel Roberts, who was not wearing underwear, did handstands. And to be clear, that's on the set of Dr. Dolittle, I believe. Yes. This is a children movie. Yes. So, you know, the thing about this movie is like, you hear Elizabeth Taylor's paid a million dollars for it. You hear she's flying in Chile, she has every disease, she's got a new husband, she's getting a newer husband, all these things. And yet on top of all of this, the absolute biggest bitch on this set 100% is Rex Harrison. That is a consistent thing across any movie we've covered with Rex Harrison in it. And one of my favorite stories from Cleopatra is that he was so mean to everybody on set. At one point, apparently, one of the guys who played like Caesar's silent assistant accidentally stepped on his toga and Rex Harrison turns around and just rips this guy a new asshole, just screaming at him on set. And apparently, Joe Mankiewicz pops out from behind the camera and goes, George, stay off his fucking skirt. Oh, man, I love that. What a time. OK, so to wrap up our highlights episode, I actually want to ask you both, what were some memoirs or what were some stories in your research that you read that helped you understand the most how films are made? Because I listened to your podcast a lot. Like when we were driving to different locations, I would put your podcast on. It's a crew favorite of hearing how productions get made, hearing all the things that went wrong, give you hope. We have a Patreon called Behind the Bangs where people learn to write and produce their own material. So I feel like our podcasts really have a moment here of like how these great stories can actually make your work better. Do you have a book or a moment that either of you have encountered where you took it into your own work or your own film and it helped? The one that I always turn to because too often, you know, and I'm as guilty of this as anybody, we celebrate the auteur who is unwilling to compromise their vision, the all-fault Tareeb. We've talked about it with a lot of directors, Stanley Kubrick, Quentin Tarantino more recently, but it doesn't have to be that way. And I think a shining example of that was Sidney Lumet. And his book, Making Movies, is a wonderful book and it details a lot of the productions that he's been on. And it really just shows how you can treat this kind of like a normal job. Not that it's not art and not that it's not important, but there's a schedule. We try to stay to the schedule. I'm going to collaborate with my actors on the way to set. We're going to figure out a way to get this done. Nobody needs to be berated. We recently heard from somebody, we did a review of Ryan Johnson's Wake Up Dead Man and we got a really lovely email from one of the crew members saying, hey, just wanted to let you know this was such a great production to work on and everyone was very respectful of our time and it was just so fun. And that actually made me like the movie more. And I was a little warm on the movie overall and then after I heard that, I thought, oh, that's so nice. I might watch this again. And so that one really comes to mind as a good example of you can be specific, you can be forceful even, and stand your ground. You don't have to be a jerk. And you don't need to make people feel less than in order to accomplish your goals as a director. Yeah, that's such a great lesson and one we all wish Alfred Hitchcock had. And yeah, that is well said. What about you, Lizzie? Well, so I should be clear, I am not a professional screenwriter or director as either of you two are. I am starting to sort of noodle an idea of my own that I've been thinking about for, you know, like years and I'm too scared slash lazy to actually act on it. But one of the episodes that I covered recently has kind of really stuck with me and is actually making me kind of get my shit together on it. And it's Toy Story. And I think the thing that I took away from Toy Story that has really stuck with me is that that movie was a technological marvel, which I think people don't maybe don't associate that with Toy Story the same way we do with something like Avatar or these sort of flashier, bigger things that are for adults, frankly. But Toy Story was the first 3D animated, fully computer generated movie ever made. And they literally could not make it until the computational power had caught up to what they were doing in terms of 3D animation. But the thing that stands out to me about Toy Story is that with all that aside, their primary focus continued to be the story. And they wanted to make sure that that was the best part of the movie and that that was still the most important part of the movie, even though they were doing a technological breakthrough, the likes of which we honestly haven't really seen since in terms of what the door that they opened with that movie. And that just really stuck with me is like, it doesn't matter how much flashy stuff you throw at something. The thing that is the most important still has to remain the story and the characters. It doesn't have to be super complicated. It doesn't have to be super dark. It doesn't have to be for a specific audience. It just needs to be a good story. And that's what they did. And it's an incredible movie. It holds up so well now what, 30 years later, basically. I think this was the 30th anniversary. So I would say Toy Story, that's a really fun episode of our show. If you guys haven't listened to it. And it's one that I found very inspiring because also the guys that wrote it, like, you know, yes, they got a lot of help. One of the people who helped was Joss Whedon. But they also just like went and read Robert McKee's story because they were like, we don't really know how to write a movie. That's a hefty read. And we're going to do it. That's a hefty look to pick up. It is. But they just did that and they got it done. And they just, you know, they focused on the importance of the story. And it's this technological marvel. And I just really think that that is inspiring. Yeah, that's really inspiring. And it's, yeah, it's such a good story. Do you know what Joss Whedon added? It's kind of annoying that Joss Whedon is the one that did it. He added the concept that Buzz Lightyear didn't realize he's a toy, which is like the whole mood. I know, I know, it's pretty good. I know. Oh, man, there's a bunch that have affected me to throw in one because it came up in this episode is early on a teacher of mine told me to read The Devil's Candy, which is the story of the bonfire, the vanities, which is the movie you referenced about Melanie Griffith getting plastic surgery halfway through. But they did something wild, which is they gave this reporter, Julie Salomon, just full access to the making of this movie, which was just like following Brian DePalma around the whole time. Yeah. And it's a pretty big shit show. And it's, I would say it's just a really gripping, exciting way to introduce yourself to the darker side of making movies, which will get much darker than Bonfire, the vanities, if you're in this career. Yeah, it's a good entry point because no one, I think no one truly gets hurt on that movie. It's a disaster. It's like it's psychologically painful. You know, to get through a movie. It is. It is. Yeah, it just doesn't really come together. It's bad. But and it's you can enjoy it, I think, more than some other ones where you really start to feel like, man, this is abusive or, you know what I mean? Some of the horrible things that have happened on some of these films. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And the second one I would say is Penny Marshall and Gina Davis. Both ended up writing about one of my favorite movies in their memoirs, which is A League of Their Own. Penny Marshall directed it. Gina Davis starred in it and they both have entirely different accounts of how that movie went. And I think when you read them both, you can get some great lessons. Penny Marshall talks about how she knew what she had to have. So she went over budget. She went three months over schedule because she had to get it right. Gina Davis says she didn't know what she wanted. So she got coverage from every single angle. So she would say we did every scene with a wide shot of close up. Like at any way you could shoot the scene, she did it because she was going to find it in the edit. And she also said that she would go to the writers and ask for jokes. She'd be like, Tom Hanks is hilarious. Can I have some jokes? And they'd be like, we don't know how a lady could be funny. And she would say, we'll just pretend you're writing for Tom Hanks, but then put my character's name over it. And she still doesn't get any jokes. And so she decides that she's going to play not having lines or jokes or something funny to say as a very quiet thoughtfulness. And so when you have this beautiful performance from her, what she's acting is the real absence of a character where she is chosen to just really be deep in thought when she is not given a line. And it ends up making her a very strong character, but something that came from the actor when it could have been repaired in the writing. So those are the ones I will throw out and something I thought a lot about when I was on a set that couldn't go over budget or over schedule. And wow, months of coverage just sounds like a dream, doesn't it, Chris? Have you turned in your director's cut yet? We actually ended up showing our film to our producer six weeks in. Do you want to know what I did on Moonshot? Tell me. Four. Four. Now tell me. Sorry, not to what. That was rude. No, that's not ideal. That was not that's not a good thing. But you know, I never. No, no, no, I want to hear about this because I've actually never, you know, a director's cut. You should have 10 to 12 weeks before anyone lays eyes on this film. That's what the guilt. Those are the guilt standards. Yeah. And that's what it's a guideline. That's what it takes. Yeah. So tell me what happened with yours and I'll tell you what happened with mine. And that's what we'll end our holiday episode. It happened on both the movies that I did. And it's not anybody trying to be mean, but you know, so you make a movie and you watch your assembly cut and you want to die. Because it's the worst. Like the joke is your movie will never be as good as your daily's and it'll never be as bad as your assembly cut. Anyway, so you watch the assembly cut and it's tough. And then you have ideally 10 to 12 weeks to put together a director's cut and you're ideally not to be bothered. But the producers really want to get in there before you show it to the finance here or the studio and they want to make sure they have enough time and they're not getting squeezed with their input. And so they will try to insert themselves as early as possible in seeing a cut. And were both of your films studio films where you had to show it to a studio? Worm was super independent. It was just like we would have to show it to the finance here. And so on Worm, the problem was we were trying to make a Sundance deadline, which is often what you're dealing with on an independent film. You shot your movie at the right time because candidly, like you can wait on some festival deadlines, I think, which is nice. We had shot ours and we like wrapped in August and we needed to submit in October or something like that. So the producers wanted to see it like four weeks in because of that. And you know, things got really tight. Didn't matter in the end, didn't get into Sundance. But the... How did it go for you showing it to them at four weeks? Was this a nice experience? Was it? It's complicated. They were very nice. I do think they liked it overall and they thought it was going in the right direction. I think it was too early and I think I just didn't know what I was doing is the reality. And then on Moonshot, it was because we were... HBO Max like greenlit this thing. So last minute, during the pandemic, they basically had an open slot in 10 or 11 months on the HBO Max platform. They wanted to release a movie every month. And they said, oh, great, you have actors and a script kind of. We didn't actually have a script. I had to do a rewrite in like two weeks to get it under. It was very insane. And then so we wrapped production and because of the time for like post, you know, VFX and everything, I had to show the producers in four weeks. I think we had to show the studio in six weeks. We had to start doing test screenings at seven weeks just to finish the movie on time. So again, that was no one's fault. I knew that going in, you know, that it was going to be really hard. And it was a pandemic and my daughter was born right before our first test screening. So it was a lot. But anyway, that's why that happened. And how did that one go? OK. Yeah. No, I mean, look, I... It went great. It's a very cute movie. Chris won't say this for himself, but you should watch Moonshot. I had two great editors, but Harry Georgian was my editor on Moonshot. And I could not have asked for a better partner. And he was with me in the edit for 13 hours a day. Yeah. The guy didn't sleep. He was just the best. Hire him in a... That's not bullshit. Like hire Harry Georgian. He is amazing. And he's a great editor. He also just like made great edits and it made my life easier. And I also thought I think I knew what I was doing a little bit more the second time around. Yeah. So I think I'd learned a little bit at that point in time. Wow. This was so fascinating to hear because going in at six weeks, I was like, when does this happen? But apparently often. I don't know how often. I just think that it's just always tough to adhere to these schedules for whatever reason. And money is always tight. And you never have time. You never have the time that you need. But even if you'd had 10 weeks, it still wouldn't have been enough time. You know what I mean? Right, right, right. And so with you, I mean, this is independent. So I'm guessing you're going to show it to the financier, you know what I mean, at some point or wherever your money's coming from. They've seen it. They've seen it. OK, great. So I wanted to show it to them in that wild. I was ready. They say all indie movies are hell and I'll be, I'm so curious to talk to all directors who've done an indie. I can't even describe the nightmares we went through. I mean, unbelievable. Oh, it's ridiculous. I remember one night we were doing kids and so we could only shoot them a few hours a day. And I had to shoot this one scene at night and we blacked out all the windows and then the room got so hot. The entire wall fell on our actor because it like unsealed from whatever it had been. He was fine. It was very light. No one was hurt. But it was just like, well, we're not going to shoot this scene. You know what I mean? Blah, blah, blah. And we just had to. That scene's gone from the movie. Sure. Like we never made it up. Of course. Didn't need it. Wow, Chris. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, just like with the rest of your podcast, hearing these stories just makes you feel. Just makes you feel not alone and like it's possible, even though it's hell. I feel like I just walked through hell and fought for every frame. And I say all that to say that now I've emerged into post and it's going well. And I feel like I fought the battle to earn post going well. Not that you should have to earn it, but I crawled out of hell with this footage. So it's okay that it's going well. That's how I'm seeing it. Chelsea, what's your movie? Tell us about it. It's called Basic. It was based off a short film I made six years ago. Oh, I saw your short film. It's great. I'm excited to see your movie. It's the feature version. It stars Ashley Park and Lainten Easter. Love Ashley Park. Oh my God. Love them both. And I'm really excited. But yeah, I'm not to the point where we send it off into the world yet. So I'll let you know. You'll get there. And yeah, when we were doing Moonshot, we were like the 53rd production to arrive in Atlanta of 53 and they were shooting Black Panther 2 at the same time. It was COVID. And we had no money. We shot in a warehouse. We didn't shoot on a soundstage. We just shot in a warehouse. If it started raining, we had to stop production because the rain was so loud that we couldn't use microphones at that point. And so it was like, it was a studio movie like in air quotes, but I do remember it was really funny. I showed up to set one day where everyone's so stressed. Like we're so tight on time. We had like five weeks prep on this thing. It's supposed to be a space movie. It's just ridiculous. You know, I show up and there's no construction crew and we're supposed to start shooting in two weeks and the sets aren't done. And I'm like, hey, where's the and they said, well, you know, the crew got poached by Black Panther 2. So we're going to find new construction guys. Don't worry about it. They did. Thank you to my production team. They were amazing. But I just do remember that moment thinking, huh, I don't know how to swing a hammer, but that would be helpful right now. But I might start. I might start. Yeah, exactly. So Ryan Coogler, you owe me one. That's right. Well, I just want to say to any aspiring filmmaker, storytellers, writers out there, definitely listen to Chris and Lizzie's podcast. Everyone I introduced your podcast to is obsessed with it. People who are on the crew are all I made them listen to your podcast all the time as we were making my film. And so please go listen to that. We will also put everything in the show notes. You can go to the behind the beings Patreon and we can link all of these books that we said will help you write. And we will link that in the show notes. And thank you so much for joining me for this chat. I feel like I could talk to you both for hours and hours about crazy movies. Well, thank you so much for having us. And I just have to say, you know, we love your show and we just want to say thank you because you had us. You had me on early on in our process and you really helped us get a nice bump for the podcast. And we are eternally grateful. And also, as I am want to do, I didn't answer your question correctly earlier on when you both highlighted a book that people could read. And I didn't know how to read, but she does watch children. Yeah, but you highlighted your episode, which I think people should go listen to. I did. I did. Sure. But let me throw out one book as I'm leaving just so I don't totally fail the test, which is my favorite that I've read for the podcast ever. It is Blood Sweat and Chrome, which is the oral history of Mad Max Fury Road. Cannot recommend this highly enough. That one definitely more interesting, at least for me, from a production perspective, just because, you know, I'm not a director. I'm not somebody who's been on a ton of movie sets. And it really does give you a good idea of just how many people it takes to make something like that. It's incredibly well done. It's very well written, highly recommended. I can't wait to read that. Yeah, it really is. Making movies is a group sport. It takes everyone in order to make a winner. So thank you both for coming on. We'll link everything and we hope you all are having a nice holiday time whenever you're listening to this. A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Homme, and our amazing associate producer, Jiren Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and Every Plate. We will link to those brands in the show notes. Go check them out. Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes. And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon, sign up. There's a free tier you can join. Leave a comment, chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the book club continuing over there. Hi, we're Backmarket. We sell expertly refurbished tech, like phones for talking to your friends or your AI babysitter. Now playing rock-a-bye baby in style of Norwegian black metal. Either way, this expertly refurbished tech costs way less than you, guaranteed by the Backmarket promise, one-year warranty, and 30-day free returns on every purchase. Up next, Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star, Grindcore remix. Backmarket, where the world's shops refurbish tech. Hi, guys. It's Jessie and Lenny from Table Manners, and our podcast is currently brought to you by Vanish. When did laundry turn into a waiting game? Because in my house, we don't do slow. We need fast, efficient, zero compromise. Which is why we're excited about new Vanish Turbo, the best Vanish yet. It's designed for speed. Vanish Turbo lifts stains and tackles odours in just 30 minutes, turning every quick wash into a deep clean. Think of it as your laundry's pit stop. Stains gone. Odours handled. Freshness locked in. It's chlorine bleach-free, safe on everyday fabrics and colours, with boosted oxy-action and accelerated technology. It works so fast. Vanish Turbo is in stores now. Trust Vanish. Forget stains. Good morning. Let the Eurocamp holiday commence. What is everyone fancy doing? Bike ride? Paddle boarding? Orb Q later? Water slides and a sick wire. They're medieval town. And what shall we do tomorrow? Eurocamp opens the door tomorrow. More fun and adventure right on your doorstep. 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