It's dinner time and the cravings are attacking from all angles. But wait, watch this, the substitute is going on. It's Food Hub. Quick tap, flawless pasta pizza, crosses to Curry, and it's in! Hubba, hubba! Victory never sasted so good. Get that hubba-hubba feeling when you order your favourite takeaways with Food Hub. Download the app today. It's Food Hub Heaven. Hey, it's Flora, and you're listening to Science Friday. Elite athletes, of course, spend a lot of time training their bodies for super strength, endurance, coordination, precision. But what about their brains? Can psychology help athletes achieve peak performance? That's what we're diving into today, the mental side of sports. We have psychologist Dr. Jessica Bartley, who works with the world's top athletes, as the senior director of psychological services for the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic Committee. Welcome, Jessica. Nice to be here. Thank you. And we have an athlete whose life depends on getting his mind right before he does his thing. You might have caught him scaling a skyscraper live on TV earlier this year. American Alex Honnold reached for the top this weekend, climbing a 101-story skyscraper in Taipei without ropes or protective gear. Alex Honnold, professional climber and host of the Planet Visionaries podcast. Alex, welcome to Science Friday. Thanks for having me. Okay, it's easy to fixate on the physical side of climbing, I think because it looks so miraculous to, you know, schlubs like me. But how much of your sport is mental? I don't know. I sometimes say it's kind of 50-50. I mean, especially if you include the mental side, if that includes technique and sort of execution, like how you climb. But certainly there's a big component to managing fear. And there's just a lot that goes into it. So I mean, I think climbing more than most sports has a big psychological component. Yes. I mean, Jessica, do you work with athletes like Alex? Yeah, I mean, at the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic Committee. So that's going to be you name U.S. soccer, U.S. badminton, like you name the sport, it kind of falls under our... Climbing is now an Olympic sport, so technically you should be working with climbers now. Exactly, we do. We do. They're based at Salt Lake, some here in Colorado with us. But yeah, we've got a lot of different sports and we have become really like a standard in most of the athletes' support systems. I mean, Alex, do you have a mental trainer? No. I mean, to be fair, climbing has only very recently become an Olympic sport and it's always historically been quite a fringe activity. And so there wasn't a lot of even athletic training. I mean, that's beginning to change and there's definitely a lot more support for climbing now than there was when I started. But hardly anybody has any kind of mental coaching, let alone physical. You know, it's all up and coming. Well, what do you do for yourself then? I mean, how do you train yourself to do this sport? Well, personally, it's just been practice over time. I mean, I've been climbing basically five days a week for 30 years. So you just, you know, it's a lot of practice. But I've also read a lot of books about, you know, peak performance. And, you know, basically I read a ton of self-help type, like anything around performance and, you know, living your best life, all those kinds of things. And then you try to pick up, you know, one useful lesson for bookie read, basically. Give me one specific example of a useful lesson, a technique that you use to overcome fear or stay locked in or whatever it is. I mean, as a climber, you kind of develop all the things that you're used to using. I mean, you get scared and then you take a deep breath. You can pose yourself, you kind of pull it back together. I mean, with climbing specifically, there's a high degree of rationalism that goes into it. Just trying to evaluate, am I actually in danger? Is it appropriate to be scared right now? Like, should I be scared or not? Things like that. I mean, I don't know if that applies to all sports. But the thing with climbing is that you often are actually in danger. And so there are times when, when you should back down, you should bail, you know, the weather is turning and like you are actually in a bad situation. And so you should act on your fear. And then there are other times where your fear is unfounded and you should ignore it and you should just, you know, achieve or whatever. So Jessica, is this jogging any thoughts for you? Oh, for sure. I mean, because I think it's a lot of what I'm doing is also trying to not let the mind get in the way of how you've trained physically. Because a lot of times it can be our biggest enemy in the way we're interpreting a situation, thinking about a situation. So I think exactly like Alex is saying is, you know, is this a danger or is it not? I mean, there's lots of sports that there's higher risk. They're higher risk sports. There's others where you just have to kind of work through it a bit and understand, you know, how do you let those physical skills, what you've trained your body to do kind of come through at their best. I think that's interesting because I feel like for most sports, you're helping people sort of unlock, like just always try your absolute hardest. And then there are a few sports where you definitely don't want to try your hardest sometimes because you will die or you will be grievously injured. The thing is that climbing is always scary at some level. You know, it's like you could always get hurt. And so untangling when that fear is well founded and when it's actually helping you stay safe is one of the key lessons, I think, from climbing. That's really interesting that you have to sort of be able to disentangle what's a real valid fear that you should listen to from maybe just your body's natural response from being up thousands of feet into the air with no rope. So how do you do that? Well, I think, you know, the rational mind comes into play to some extent. We were sort of like, well, am I actually in danger? You know, have I practiced this? Am I prepared for this? Like, is the weather, you know, our condition stable? Like, is the medium, like, is the rock quality high enough? Like, you know, because sometimes you are actually in danger of breaking a hold and falling to your death. And if the rock quality is low, then you probably should be a lot more careful. And, you know, you have a reason to be scared. So I think being rational about it and sort of understanding where your fear is coming from is the first step. And then ideally you make a sort of well informed decision as to whether or not you want to push forward in the face of, you know, push through your fear or not. Jessica, I mean, are there specific exercises that you do with athletes or meditation or hypnosis? Like, what, what tools do you use to help athletes figure out when to push? And breaking the headline, you hypnotize Olympians into performing at a higher level. Yeah, right. No, I mean, it's really specific to the athlete. It's specific to the sport. You're looking at all the circumstances. As Alex is saying, is am I actually in danger? And I think that that's really important. I mean, one of the things that I fall back on a lot is imagery and visualization. I mean, there's actual science that says the more reps that you're getting in the brain, the more reps you're getting, period, the brain doesn't know the difference. And so there's been a lot that's been done on imagery and visualization that if you were to look and take an FMRI machine, the same neurons are firing. And so if you are shooting a basketball or you're thinking about shooting a basketball, so the more reps you can do, the better, you're just getting more repetition. The reality is you need the baseline physical skills, but you can get additional reps. You can think, what am I going to do if my foot slips here? What am I going to do here? And what I've often said is the best of the best athletes, you know, take the hundred meter dash, like you're running and you want to think about having the perfect race. You also want to think about what happens if you stumble out of the blocks and how you would recover from that. Because then your body doesn't have the reaction of like, Oh, crap, I've never seen this before. My body's never seen it. I don't know what to do. I've only been focused on having the perfect race. And the reality is you need to think about the perfect race. Maybe the not so perfect race. There's a time to like really lock in, but the more you can imagine it in your mind, use imagery and visualization, just the more reps you're getting. And the easier it's going to be on your body and your mind when you're actually executing the task. Alex, do you use visualization? Yeah, I always say like literally exactly that same answer. I've talked about exactly that quite a lot. I know, well, that's why you're a doctor. That's a, no, actually, I was very validating. So I'm like, that's exactly the process that I've always used to talk about visualization. Um, I mean, I guess, uh, the only difference I would add for, for climbing is like, when I, when I visualize as a climber, I mean, part of it is imagining the actual task itself. So remembering the movement, like left hand goes here, right hand goes there. Here's how I move. But then for me, part of visualizing is also like you were saying, imagining the mental component of it, like, will it be scary if I put my foot there? Like if I look down and I see 2000 feet of air underneath that foothold. Like, is that going to be scary? And so it's one thing to remember how to do it. It's another thing to imagine how it's going to feel when you're doing it. And I think that's a really important component of visualization. Alex, does it, does the climb change for you when people are watching? I'm thinking of Taipei one on one. This, you climbed this huge skyscraper. It was broadcast live on Netflix. Was it different to climb when people were watching live in that way? Yeah. Actually, it's interesting you say that because I just did a gym of it. So this is like nothing compared to a live TV thing or like the Olympics or anything, but I was just training in the gym two mornings ago and it was kind of like a meet and greet sort of event. So there were a lot of people there watching and there were like a couple of people just filming nonstop. And I was kind of sucking, you know, just like, just a natural training day where you're kind of like, oh, it's not my best day. I was like, not feeling great. My shoulder's kind of hurting. And I just wasn't any good. And you're kind of like slightly, it's just way more embarrassing when they're people watching. And I actually kind of think that's a real weakness of mine as, as an athlete is performing in front of other people. Uh, I mean, the building thing being kind of a notable exception just because it was relatively within my comfort zone, the climbing wasn't too hard. It was kind of fun. And I was able to sort of rise to the occasion and embrace the crowds to some extent, but that was kind of my first experience ever doing something with a crowd. And I think, I mean, that must be a huge challenge for other athletes is managing the crowd. I mean, cause that's, you know, I've never liked public speaking or basically being in front of people. If you train for it, I mean, it's the same piece though. It's like interesting thinking of like some people thrive on it. Some people are like, I'm going to specifically have to train to be in front of, you know, hundreds of thousands of people. Um, and if you think how many folks are watching the Olympics or the Paralympics, I mean, you start to like think about how you can be at your best. And that's what we're constantly training. I mean, it's four years in the making for us where we're not new to the athletes. We're thinking about it constantly to where it's like, eh, it doesn't really phase me. My body doesn't really feel it. My mind doesn't really feel it. You just get really accustomed to it because you've practiced so much. I'm curious how many of the athletes do you think thrive from that kind of pressure and how many, you know, wilt under that kind of pressure? Cause I think of myself as more of a wilter. Like I hate the public watching, but I think it's a total coin flip. Like you are going to get athletes who you say, this is the Olympics. This is super special. There's nothing like this. There's other athletes who want it to feel like, oh, it's just any other day. I've got to block everyone out. But it's like completely depends. And that's where you have to have an individualized approach with all the athletes. Like, you know, you're either reading books or you're working with a sports psychologist, whatever it may be, you've got to understand like self-awareness is huge. There's like, how am I going to thrive under pressure? What do I need? What are the tools I need to be at my best? Again, it's a total coin flip. I think there's people that completely thrive. There's others that are going to wilt and you just have to meet them where they are. Yeah. I mean, is that basically just the difference between introvert and extrovert? Like, is that just internal characteristics? Oh, I don't know if I've ever thought about it like that. I mean, I think that could be a part of it is, is somebody introverted or extroverted and how do they play to their strengths? I mean, we do a lot of assessments around their personality, what their strengths are, what their goals are, what their values are, what's going to push them through. Like, what's their why? Like, why, why would they push themselves? Why would they sacrifice? So much time away from friends and family, away from like, I don't know, a particular career. So you're always trying to understand that person. I think introvert or extrovert could be a part of it, but I think it's only a part. Like, I think you have to really understand what is driving that person to execute, to achieve, to thrive, however you want to think about it. I have to take a quick break, but don't go away because when we come back, I want to ask you guys about METS. Like, can athletes just pop a beta blocker with like the rest of us? Don't go away. Hey, Flora here. We are wrapping up Science Friday's fiscal year on June 30th, and we could use your support. We're aiming to raise $100,000 to close out our budget. And with your help, I know we can do it. If Science Friday is valuable to you, if you rely on our reporting to make sense of the world, or even just to give you your daily dose of joy and wonder, please consider going to sciencefriday.com slash donate to make a donation. It's fast, easy, and secure. And any amount you can swing will help to sustain us in this critical moment. You know, I know I've said it before, but I really mean it. Science Friday can only continue with your support. That's sciencefriday.com slash donate and thanks. It's dinner time. The cravings are attacking from all angles. But wait, watch this. The substitute is going on. It's Food Hub. Quick tap, flawless pasta pizza, crosses to Curry, and it's in. Hubba, hubba. Victory never sasted so good. Get that hubba, hubba feeling when you order your favorite takeaways with Food Hub. Download the app today. It's Food Hub Heaven. I'm Amy Scott, host of How We Survive, a podcast about the messy business of climate solutions. To a lot of people, geoengineering might seem like a dangerous, outlandish way to play God. But some are embracing this sci-fi-inspired approach as a solution to the climate crisis. Listen to How We Survive on your favorite podcast app. Jessica, when the rest of us are anxious, we may have this option to take a beta blocker or a Xanax to chill out. Can Olympic athletes take meds like that? Would they? Some athletes. I think what's really important to understand is most medication in that kind of category that's treating anxiety is not allowed. Is the concern that their performance enhancing? Correct, yes. And so you look at particular sports where you have to be able to calm yourself down. There's certain sports where it is banned like golf, archery, shooting. You cannot take it. And I actually, some of the things a lot of folks don't know is that it's also banned in a lot of countries. So certain medications are, stimulants are. So again, you also recognize that a lot of athletes maybe have ADHD and maybe on Adderall. Can't take it at the Olympics. And so I think you have to understand the behavioral strategies. How are you going to focus when we've gone into some of the last few Olympics? So Tokyo and Beijing, you cannot take those medications. And so it's interesting to think how would you just use behavioral strategies when you're used to medication or potentially need medication? I think it's really important to know that you can't take it. I would actually just say as an athlete, I'd be a little bit wary of using certain types of drugs like that, partially just because you wouldn't want to be relying on it for your performance, just because you never know if you run out of meds or like, you know, an inopportune time, you can't get your right dosage or, you know, you're traveling and you forget a bag or something. Like, yeah, if like your check bag gets lost on your way to a competition, you just wouldn't want to feel like your whole competition results are dependent on something. You know, I mean, I feel like as an athlete, you would try your absolute best to be able to control internally if you could. You know, obviously some medications are required, but you wouldn't want that to be a core part of your performance. Yeah, I think it's really important. I think it's important to know that some athletes do a lot. Can't. And I think there's that balance of then how do you perform at your best with out medication or how do you perform at your best with particular circumstances? I mean, it's definitely something we've had to manage over some of the last few games. Alex, if you had a fight or flight moment while you're climbing that is that you wish you hadn't, that wasn't actually there to sort of protect you from doing something dangerous and how did you manage it? I mean, I've had so many. I mean, the thing with climbing is I've had so many scary experiences. I mean, I don't even know where to start. You know, it's like, I mean, like unexpected things happen all the time, but I wouldn't necessarily say that I would wish any of them away. It's not like I want it. You know, like I definitely would prefer not to get scared. You know, like I never want to have moments of panic. I never want to feel like I'm about to die. It's like, I don't, I don't like being scared. I don't like being all gripped. And it's funny, people always ask, you know, like, Oh, are you doing it for the adrenaline rush? I'm like, no, like I don't want an adrenaline rush. I don't want to be all wired and like buzzy. You know, I want it to feel calm and fun and smooth, but you know, things happen. And so, uh, yeah, I mean, for tons of experiences like that, I don't get attacked by birds, like having holds break, like falling off the things, I get lost in, I mean, tons of weather things. I don't know, like bad rock experience. Actually, a lot of my very scariest experiences have actually been with a rope on, uh, just because when you're climbing with a rope, you're much more willing to push yourself into the unknown. Like when you're coming without a rope, obviously you have to really stay within your comfort zone, you know, stay within a safety margin because you're just not willing to push it. If, if anything means death, but when you have a rope on, you're kind of like, well, I'm willing to push a lot further because, you know, surely conditions will get better if I just go around the corner and you keep going around the corner, going around the corner conditions, keep getting worse and worse. And then pretty soon you're still looking at, you know, fatal consequences if you fall, but you're like, Oh no, how did I get here? You know, it's like a series of bad decisions. And then you just kept going down that path. So I've had a bunch of really scary experiences with ropes. And those normally unfold over the period of sometimes even hours, you know, and it's deeply, I mean, I would say, say traumatic almost, but, you know, I don't want to misuse the word, but, uh, but it's all very, very scary. Um, but I wouldn't necessarily take any of that back because I mean, that's inherent to the climbing experience. I mean, that's part of climbing. It's also how you learn presumably, right? Yeah. Yeah. Jessica, for high performance athletes, I mean, is there a risk to not competing? Oh gosh, that's such a good question. I mean, that's going back to what I was mentioning about the why. I mean, the reality is you want to do it. It's something you're driven to do. A lot of athletes have been engaged in their sports since they were little or they've got particular goals. And so it's always this balance. I'm often thinking of it as like a risk analysis. Like, I mean, the reality is you are giving up a lot for sport at this level, um, which I think is really important to understand as well. I mean, there's always a balance, but I, I, I see a lot of athletes who aren't themselves if they're not competing. I, I've spent a lot of times with athletes who are injured trying to get back. And so there's always that balance where you're looking at the risk and the reward. But again, I think a lot of times you are kind of pushing yourself towards something to, to make you happy, um, to feel fulfilled, to, to really accomplish something. I mean, there's so many reasons we do what we do. Um, and again, I think there, there can be a real risk to not competing because of that. You've mentioned that you feel like athletes are giving up a lot to compete at this level, but to the athletes, did they feel like they're giving up a lot? Because it's like, yeah, they're giving up time with family and friends and things like that. But I mean, speaking from personal experience, I'm like, I don't see that as giving anything up. It's like, I'm doing the thing that I love to do. I'm doing it all the time and I love doing it. It's amazing. You know, I don't feel like I've made any sacrifices in life, though I'm sure somebody from the outside looking in, thinking, wow, you've spent an inordinate amount of time doing this difficult and somewhat dangerous thing like that. That's a big sacrifice. But I'm like, no, this is amazing. This is like, I wouldn't want to do anything else in my day. Well, I would say what's different about the Olympic and Paralympic population is around 60% of our athletes live below the poverty line. And so you're trying to figure out how to make ends meet, how to keep doing what you love, and it may mean that you have to move halfway across the country to train, or you may have to do something. A lot of our athletes will have multiple jobs. And so again, like, I feel like there's such a wide array of things, but I find that the way I think about it is, what are your values? What's your why? What's important? And somehow, some way, those come into conflict, you know? So if the sport and making it to the Olympic or Paralympic Games is number one, there is time that maybe you didn't spend with family or maybe you weren't able to get that degree that led you to another kind of job. It's usually when values and what's important comes into conflict with something else that's important, and you have to kind of make some choice points or pivot points in your life. So I don't know. Again, I think that's, I like the way you framed it, because I don't know that you're giving something up, but things do, in my opinion, start to come into conflict. Alex, what's the why for you? Can you put it into words? Yeah, because it's so freaking cool. So great. I mean, rock climbing is the best. Like, why wouldn't you climb things if you can? It's so fun. Are you going to compete in the Olympics for climbing? No, I'm far too old, sadly. No, Olympic climbing is dominated by young folks, basically the same way that gymnastics is. So the people winning are sort of 18 to 24, and I'm not 40. So my Olympic dream sailed a long time ago. But I mean, if I was young enough and talented enough, it'd be amazing. Jessica, can any of what you teach your athletes be applied to regular people, like the rest of us? Yeah, I like to say that we're all performers, that there's always a performance. There's always something that we're working towards and want to do really well. We want to execute, whether it's like a task at work, it could be a test at school. You know, I've worked with all kinds of different occupations. You know, our field has really grown with military, with first responders. Personally, I've worked with lawyers when they're looking at their closing arguments. Like, how do you stand in front, like talk about being watched and having like stakes when you have a closing argument with the law? Working with medical provider surgeons when you have surgeries. And so there's a lot of ways that you can use mental performance skills. Like Alex said, pick up a book on it, find someone who knows the sport psychology, mental performance. I mean, the reality is we all have mental health. So what are ways that we can improve those things and really be performing at our best and living at our best? I would maybe just get reps. I mean, the thing that you're trying to do is practice it and do the thing. I mean, part of it is sort of expanding your comfort zone to like make what seems intimidating become normal. Yeah, I love that. No, I mean, I do think it's like, I like to say practice makes permanent. The more reps you're getting, the more it's going to feel good in your body and also in your mind. That's great advice. Alex Honnold, Free Solo Climber and host of Rolex's Planet Visionaries podcast and Jessica Bartley, psychologist for the US Olympic and Paralympic teams. This is so fun. Thank you both for joining us today. Thank you. Thanks, Alex. Yeah, pleasure chatting. Appreciate it. That's it for today's show. This podcast was produced by Kathleen Davis. And if you want to help us climb to the top of the podcast charts, you know, it would really help a review, but only five stars. We will catch you next time. Thank you for listening. I'm Florian Liegtman. It's dinner time and the cravings are attacking from all angles. But wait, what's this? The substitutes is going on. It's Food Hub. Quick tap for all as fast a pizza crosses to Curry. And it's in. Hubba, hubba. Victory never tasted so good. Get that hubba, hubba feeling when you order your favorite takeaways with Food Hub. Download the app today. It's Food Hub, hubba.
