Hour 1: Chuck Challenges Dan (feat. Chuck Klosterman)

This is the Dunlabor tour show with this two-guts podcast. I've admired this guy's work for a long time. He writes exceptionally well about rock music, pop culture, but really the state of society. Zaz said he's read a clostrum in books. Yeah, and I don't read. Well, I know. That was surprising to me. The highest honor I've seen clostrum and making the rounds here, selling the book. It's called football, so that should sell. Of course, that's going to be New York Times best sell. I just put football on anything, and it'll sell. But if this guy's writing it, it'll also sell. And I have not read the entirety of the book, but I want to play a game with you to make this a little different, Chuck, because I know you're getting asked some of the same question. So do you mind if we play a game of what the chuck? Well, let's see what happens. All right. I will start with an easy one. Football wasn't the original title of your book. What the chuck? Was it true or false? Or you were asking what the original title was? Just what the chuck? We could have been better at explaining. I think the initial title, the very first one, was dangerous, but worth the risk, which is also the title of a rat song. But yeah, that was the initial. Then I went through a few iterations, then I went with football, had a bunch of subtitles, and then just ignored all the subtitles. So you, your basketball is your sport, though, right? What the chuck? Well, I mean, I love basketball. I love football. I was a better basketball player. I guess I feel like in a sense that it is probably a pure game in a vacuum. But if you're going to write a book about a sport in the United States, it's insane to write about anything except football. I mean, it is so much more significant, not just than it's sort of rival sports, but almost of all its rival sports combined, that they're, you know, if you're looking at things culturally, there's not really any question what you're right about. The reaction to the halftime show, what the chuck? Well, you know, I knew you were going to ask me about that, because I don't spend a hot topic on your show. I'm just going to be honest with you. I have a very athletic dog, and my dog needs to get walked twice a day for sure. So when there was like 10 seconds left in the first half, I immediately walked the dog. Okay? So I'm walking through the neighborhood, though, and I can see into the, you know, into the, through the windows of people's houses. Everybody was watching it. It seemed like a highly produced show. I got back. My wife said it was great. And then I just heard people talking about it nonstop now for two days. So you didn't see it, but you're, you're a keen observer on what's going on in society. The reaction to it being in Spanish, what the chuck? Somewhat unsurprising. You know, I knew, of course, that this was going to cause issues, particularly if the game was not very entertaining and didn't give something else, some people something else to talk about. You know, because every, every year, the same thing happens. The announced shoes going to play in the Super Bowl halftime show. And there's all these people who say like, why isn't it Metallica? Like why isn't the black keys? They somehow seem to work from this position that the halftime show is supposed to sort of fit in with who they imagine the demographic or the core demographic for the Super Bowl is. And of course, it's the exact opposite. Like they're, they're trying to find something that almost counter programs the audience for the game. So it made a ton of sense to have him do this. Now people are going to be unhappy because they, you know, they, he's not singing in English. The, the, what is hilarious to me is that one, both the people who seem to hate this show and the people who seem to love this show are almost tacitly admitting they have no experience with bad money prior to this. But they've just made this decision of how they're going to feel about it. So like I'm, I, I think it's idiotic that people are upset that they had a Spanish speaking person perform the halftime show. I also think it is absurd that there's all these bad, funny defenders now who are clearly having this reaction for political reasons only. It has nothing to do with the content. I mean, you know, it has something to do with the content because they see the content as political. But if there, if the situation was different, most of the people reacting to this would have no response to his music. But you also write, right, that there's a universal understanding that football is fundamentally conservatively coded, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. So when you puts, you know, and what, what is interesting about the NFL is that I think one of your guys in the studio just mentioned this, they put bad money on it halftime. They have green day play before the show. I'm like, this band is very, a punk band, very outspoken was against, you know, the first bush and now sort of transport the second bush and now kind of transfer this toward Trump. They put them out there and people watch these things. I think with the expectation that there's going to be real conflict, that these artists are going to say something that's going to be shocking, that's going to, you know, and then they just perform and then everybody kind of has to triangulate a meaning from it. I mean, I would be very curious to the conversations that like bad money your green day has with the NFL before these performances and like what, how they sort of ensure that what they're going to get is just a performance. Like, I assume that must happen. Maybe it doesn't be a wrong. Kendrick Lamar, it seemed like I would not have him doing pedophilia stuff during his performance if there was going to be legislation on the freedom of the expression. Zaz, what did you think of green day? What did you think of the performance? Yeah, I mean, Chuck, like green day, like you said, they're a punk rock band who's always been very outspoken and even till today, like they still tore and they're super outspoken about world events. And I thought it was super lame. You're probably right. I'm sure there are mandates from the league, what to say, what not to say. And they clearly totally gave into those mandates and didn't say anything on the biggest stage in, you know, the world. And I find that pretty off putting from them. Well, my question for you though would be, why do you want that? I mean, I'm not trying to be adversarial here. I'm like, why do you want green day to do that? Why do you want them to create a situation where the conversation we're having about a bad bunny or any of these things is amplified by a level of 10 because then there's someone who can actually be pointed to as they said this. Like what, what, what is your reason for wanting that? I would just want them to be them. And on that stage, they decided to veer off the course of what makes them them. That's a big punk, right? Well, well, sure, but what you're saying, if that, if, if being them necessitates them being political at all times, I think that's sort of a misreading of green day. I mean, green day has political ideals, but if you go to a typical green day show, it's not going to be Walt Wall ideology. They're not necessarily to be that. They're not rage against the machine. It's not even that. I mean, even that, if you go to a range against the machine, you know, you, you know what Tom Orello believes or whatever, it probably will be directed at certain times throughout the performance. This is like, when you look at green day's performance, what was also interesting about it is they actually sort of presented themselves slightly more conservatively or conventionally than usual. And Billy Joel's hair was a normal color. He was dressed in a black leather jacket, the most kind of conventional rock outfit possible. So I, I, I mean, I think that they may have just wanted to play the Super Bowl. Like that was their thing. They didn't see this as a way to sort of forward an idea as like this would be a great opportunity. Yeah. Chuck, two quick questions. Number one, what do you, who do you think would be a great half time show for the Super Bowl to set up? Let's have a go. It could be, it could be. And number two, why do you think football is doomed? Okay. Well, the second question is a chunk of this book that, you know, the 10,000 words people often want me to describe it in two sentences. And if I could, I probably wouldn't have me to write a book to answer your first question, though. Like, who would be the ideal artist for the half time show? Well, I mean, if football is sort of the last vestige of the monoculture, the only other aspect of that would be Taylor Swift. She's the only other part of the monoculture that still exists. I suppose the marriage of those two things would be perceived as the ultimate spectacle. That, you know, it would be combining the two things in America that seem to be meaningful to people, even if they don't want them to be. That these, I did these kind of entities that are almost imposed upon them. The whole thing about football being doomed, I'm talking two generations from now. And of course, people are shocked by this, especially of all they hear is that idea, because it seems so counterintuitive. I mean, right now, it seems more likely that football would swallow up all the other sports. But what I see happening is that there's going to be sort of a financial catastrophe on the horizon that football can only expand. The revenue can only go up. The NFL does not work from a position where sort of just like statically neutral neutrality can work. It's always got to get bigger. And that requires everything around it to increase in the same way, the amount that they can raise from advertising, the amount that platforms and networks are willing to pay. But I see that hitting a point probably in about 2060 or 2070 or something like that, where the amount of money required to sort of show these things that is current right becomes impossible. And there's a work shutdown. There's either a lockout or there's this major strike. And what will be different in these two generations that removed is that I think that the consumer will have less of a personal relationship to football than they do now. It would happen now if there was a work shutdown now, people would lose their mind. They'd be like, what am I going to gamble on? How am I going to build my weekend around you? There's no satan, you know, no football on Sunday. There's no year of college football somehow disappeared. There was nothing on Saturday. But in two generations, I don't know if that's going to be the case because I think it's already becoming this thing where there's been this bifurcation between the kind of person who plays and lives football and the kind of person who just watches it as sort of an entertaining distraction. This is a heavy play by Closterman, a veteran of the industry here where he predicts something that won't happen within his lifetime. Exactly. But he'll never be proven wrong. And he's not actually saying that football is going to fail. He's just going to say it's going to get so big that America's not going to be equipped in its economy to be able to protect how big it gets. Like, this is authorship of the highest order, sir. Well, it also seems like a non-controversial thing to say. Like, in 50 years, the world will be different. But this just illustrates how central football is to people sort of lives and consciousness that just saying that in the field perhaps 50 years, this thing that's now the center of the culture will have receded to the perimeter. People are like impossible. That can't be your idiot. You know, it's like, it's been, it's to some of this is my own fault. I mean, because I mentioned it early in the book and then it's kind of at the end of the book. So I think for a lot of people who consume this, they think, well, that must be what the book is about. It's just really a sliver of it. I mean, my book is about football sort of in the largest possible sort of lands across this entire spectrum of ideas. But one of those ideas is sort of its future and I do think like all things that large, like all hyper objects, it is doomed. Because as the world changes, the large objects are less flexible than the small ones. The bigger an institution is, the less likely or the less able it is to sort of change with house society shifts. Hello friends. I want to talk to you about chime because chime is changing the way people bank and honestly it just makes sense. This is fee free, smarter banking built for regular people like you and me, not old school banks charging overdraft and monthly fees just for trying to get through the week. This is banking that actually feels like it's on your side, which is very, very important. Chime isn't just another app. They unlock smarter banking with tools like MyPay, giving you access to up to $500 of your paycheck when you need it. 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It's called football. It is available now and I urge you to read it because he really is an exceptional author. I heard you say on Pablo Torrey the finds out the other day that Bill Simmons did real great wonders for your career in general but the writing somehow got swallowed people think of you as a thinker and more than a writer. It must crush you to see what's happening at the Washington Post and elsewhere. What's happening to writing? Well, I mean the thing that I was saying about Simmons that of course it's been great for my career. When I do a podcast with Simmons it gets as much attention as when I put a book out. But the thing that I don't love is that everybody has heard my voice now and let's face it. I have kind of an annoying voice. Some people hear my voice and they just hate it. So I know now when people read my books very often they're hearing my voice. In the past what they would have done is imagine the best version of their own voice if they liked the book. Now they, you know, I'm sort of forced basically to inflict myself on people so they hear it back. I'm trying to get the Washington Post now. It's just it's confusing in a lot of ways because certainly someone like Jeff Bezos is not in a position where he looks at the Washington Post and he's like it's got to make money for me to survive. Like you know, that's not what is happening there. It's almost as though that he has this idea of how a business he operates has to work. Like there's no way that he's going to have a business that's not competitive with, you know, any of his rivals and that sort of seems to be doing meaningful work. It's, I mean, certainly the content of the Washington Post has not been as great over the last two years as it was a few years ago. There was a period very recently when I really felt the post was better than the New York Times by quite a bit. Now that doesn't seem to be the case now and now certainly it's kind of fall in the part. It's a it's a it's very weird too because like the as a sports reader as somebody who likes sports writing. I mean, that's that was really sort of the cornerstone of that. You know, it's like investigative political reporting and sports journalism. So you need to be the two things that associate with the Western Post. So I mean, it is it's odd, but I what can you do? I mean, it's also not surprising. I would doubt you'd be surprised by that. Chuck, what's going on with this fire behind you? It's making me nervous. There's boxes right near it. Is this a is it a depth perception thing or is there a fire hat on you? Well, no, here's the deal. So this is like a little log cabin that came with my house. It was in the backyard. I don't know what it was for. I think the former residents maybe used it as like a playhouse. They must, you know, but it had an actual fireplace in there. So this is where I built my office in, but I didn't want to have to start a fire every time I came out here. So that's an electronic fireplace. That's like that heats the room, but it's not actually a fire. There is no risk. You had us full though. I think we would have thought. All of us would have thought that was real and that you were going for a vibe there, not just warmth, but you were trying to give off author, author writing in, you know, writing in cold weather, real fire. Well, did you like to write by a fireplace when you were a young man? I live in a fireplace. I live in a fireplace. I live in the entire city. I live in as a fireplace. But it fooled me. I was fooled. I thought that that was real fire behind you. You're against instant replay, right? I am. I know I'm the last person that way, but I am. Why? Well, I just, okay, I hate using the same joke over and over again, but it is the best illustration of this. Instant replay for officiating really sort of to me forces me to confront the sometimes problematic absurdity of these sports. They're like, you know, I'm already watching adults making all this money play a simulation of reality for all, you know, there's all this kind of thickness around it. Something happens in the game. And in order to get an objective answer to say, is it third and short or is that a first down, the amount of evidence we need is greater than the amount of evidence we need to give a guy the electric chair. But isn't that crazy that we need like invisible visual evidence for like players are playing the game, but we need machines to officiate it? I mean, that's just, I think that when I see the idea that we're going to, and this is beyond the fact that like, I mean, particularly basketball now is even worse. What's the ball? No, soccer. Mike has stopped being, or not, not stopping a soccer fan, but instant replay has ruined Mike's experience with soccer. He's absolutely made the sport much worse and less of a appointment watching for me. It used to be bona fide. My favorite sport. And it's been knocked down a few pegs because I can't celebrate a goal. And we're talking about like, like little toenail differences. It's just terrible. I mean, you know, because it will be interesting to me how the idea that a bad call by the official is not sort of part of the narrative of the game. It's just, now it's just things like, well, this means that the outcome isn't objectively true. But never. Also, the other problem is that even with instant replay, yes, they more often get the correct call, but not. It's not 100%. Sometimes it kind of leaves you almost with almost a worst taste in your mouth because it consumed all this time for an outcome that they couldn't change. I just, I don't think it is, I don't think it adds anything to the game. I think it more, I think it detracts from that spirit. It adds more accurate. It's right. It adds more accurate. Oh, sure. Oh, of course. I mean, it is. If you, and I think that there's now this contingent of people who are involved with gambling. And so they see this very differently. They're like, we must have an objective outcome because if we don't, it could cost me money or whatever. I don't see it as so essential though that if we sit like, like, you know, when I was talking about this when I was on Simmons podcast, because of course, everyone disagrees with me. It seems like a crazy thing to say in 2026 that you don't want to use technology to your advantage. But he was talking about the old Houston Oilers Pittsburgh Steelers, AFC title game back from like the late 70s, early 80s, where there was a controversial call in the end zone with a water receiver. And many people in Houston feel like that costs in the game. But the call was, you know, the touchdown wasn't allowed. And people are like, well, see, it's great. That would never happen now. But the only reason we're talking about it this many years later is because that did happen. The mistake was part of that experience and part of that game is part of the history of those franchises. Some of these things that people want to correct are like short term remedies. Like if they really care about the idea of the sport, that is part of it. The idea that human error plays a role both for the players and for the officiating crew. I don't think we need to constantly stop the game, especially to look at these things in like a frame by frame basis with basketball is really maddening because things will happen in the last minute of a basketball game that are then officiated in a way that they have not been officiated for the last 47 minutes or the last 39 minutes. Like the idea if you hold the basketball on your hand and someone punches it out, technically the last thing it touches is the bottom of your finger. But no point in the game is that possibly out on the guy holding the ball until they go to insta replay at the very end. It's really reversing the whole idea of how that play is supposed to be officiated. Chuck the AFC Championship game was defined by weather this year with the Broncos and Patriots. But you like the weather games in NFL. Well, one of the great things about football is that it makes it so unique and special to pick up from the other American sports is that you know baseball is like we'll cancel the game if it rains. You know basketball is an indoor sport hockey is a simulation of goldness. Football is the only sport where natural elements are assumed to be part of what you're going to experience. If the game is outside you have to factor that in. You have to build your team with the knowledge that there may be scenarios particularly late in the year that will contradict the way you want to play. I mean, you may have to play more of a primitive physical style. You have to have that in your bank vault of possibilities because weather is a role. It's this new X factor that you can't expect. You can't anticipate this idea that you want to play these games in these climate control places to get the most again. It's a little bit like in some replay that you're trying to take all subjectivity out of this. You want only the objective outcome. I think it's insane that like they want to put a dome up in Philadelphia. I think it was a huge mistake for the Viking franchise to take away that advantage and put themselves in these domes. I mean, I think that most people who like football love weather games and it's very strange to hear someone who doesn't. Most people though, most people who would watch television would like that fire to be real and catch fire and you have to run out of the room. It doesn't mean that that's how you'd want to experience it. It's not a good measurement of how this is all measured. You put weather, the Patriots just made it to the Super Bowl, not just because Denver had a bad quarterback because they didn't have to do anything in the second half because it was snowing too much and nobody was actually playing football anymore to get to the Super Bowl. No, they were still playing football. They were playing a different kind of football where it wasn't so easy to kick a 45-yard field goal. It wasn't easy to throw the ball down field and you had to change things in order to make it. It's not the football they were playing all year when they were doing the measurements. It's not unlike your instant replay argument. They're playing a different game at the end of the season than they are at any other point during the season. Except that we understand that we live in a place where the climate shifts. That's an understanding you have. No one's surprised that it's cold and possibly snowy in New England in December and January. That's part of it. Chuck, I don't think fans spending dearly to attend a game would agree with this but why do you think football is best watched on TV not in person? Well, I mean, there are hundreds of reasons to go to a live football game but one of them cannot be. Well, I really wanted to see what happened in the game. I wanted to see the game better. Every person on television is seeing the game with more clarity than every person in the stadium including the coaches and the players. I mean, the way football is constructed, it is impossible to have sort of a neutral sightline for the entire game. If you're sitting in the corner of the end zone, there might be situations where it play happens right in front of the pile on and you have this unique view that only you have. It's this kind of rare thing where it almost seems like the game is coming right into your lap. But in almost every other situation, what is happening is what you are seeing with your eyes is then being transposed in your mind to that sort of classic view we see on television. From the midfield, pointed down, players moving horizontally across the field, I mean like football is a mediated event even when there is no media involved. I would guess if I asked any of you right now, imagine a football game like in your mind just imagine a football game, I would guess the majority of you would be seeing something that looks the way it looks on television. Even if you've played a football game in your life. If you play in high school, you're probably not reverting back to that experience. The first thing you thought of was what it looks like on TV. Because football is the one sport that is always better on television. Hockey is always better live. Football is always better on television. Every other sport is debatable, depending on the conditions and where you're sitting and all these other things. But football is made for television and the reason it's so dominant in this country is completely married to that. But football starts after the Civil War, evolves in its own way. But when it intersects with the rise of television in the 1950s, that's when all this change. This is when football becomes this thing that is different in a reflection of society as opposed to just one component. Mike, you'll appreciate the Chuck thinks college football is better than pro football. Yes, sports are at its best when they're most regional and tribal. And college football does that much better than any of the pro sports. Yes, the regional quality is huge. The historical aspect is huge too. Because pro sports are made to almost be completely reinvented every eight to ten years. If you love a pro franchise, the expectation is, especially with the way the NFL operates, is that within a ten-year span, you should be good at some point. College was always a little different. Now, this is going to change with all this NIL portal business. That's obviously shifting the sport very radically. But I thought it was always extremely interesting how there was like this real diversity of thought between how teams play in the South East and how teams played in the Pac-12 and how teams played in the Midwest. I think it's really fun that when you're staying watching, say, you know, Duke is playing Florida State. In a sense, you are sort of rooting against or for the person you assume who goes to that school. Like, it kind of creates a caricature of the kind of person who's part of that institution. In a way that doesn't happen, like, if you watch the Arizona carnels, you don't think of the carnels as like representing the people of Phoenix in any real way. That's just where the players got drafted. That's just like where they pay taxes. But at the college level, it's different. Plus, the game on the field is just better. It's more interesting, you know, because the teams play more differently. Whereas in the NFL, outside of the, you know, the very cute, you know, outliers, the teams are fundamentally all playing the same offense and the same defense 90% of the time. His is a popular viewpoint on the weather. He writes in the book, the name of the book is football. The weather, we are able basically to live in the modern world separate from the climate and football demands us not to. Football forces us to sort of consider how that will affect not just how the game is played, but the mentality of how much respect we give these guys. The Dolphins head coach, he acts really meek and cold weather and tries to overcompensate and it really reflects badly on him. And I don't even know if he realizes, I guess he's fired now. But coming from North Dakota, I probably like weather more than most people. My wife would always be confused when I talk on the phone to my parents because we talk for 12 minutes and we talk about the weather for five minutes and she's like to her, that's what you talk about when there's nothing else going on. And I was like, not if you live on a farm in North Dakota, it's the most important thing happening at all times. Yours is the popular viewpoint here. Everybody wants to watch football players as if it's not bad enough. Then what they're doing for a living throws some rain and and and and some just terrible blow free temperatures. Well, this is I would like to ask you this, because I've not exactly sure what the answer is. On balance is your position now, anti football, more than pro football. Like I mean, like I can't I said, you know, I watch you for a bunch of years and I feel like I've seen a real evolution in the way you think about lots of things. And I'm wondering if now you are of the position that I mean, even if you still have a connection to it as a guy and if she's still like watching it, would you say on balance? It's bad for society. Bad for society. Football would would society be better if football was either not part of the world or or if nothing else, a much smaller percentage of how football and culture is consumed. Like a football was not this dominant thing. Would you prefer to be less dominant social? I would say my answer to that is complicated, but I'd prefer that football players be looked at and thought of as human beings first. And the sport makes it very hard on them. I enjoy the hell out of football. I'm not against people enjoying. However, it is they spend their weekends gambling on football and consuming it like an addiction. But as the numbers, the place where you may have seen my opinions change on football. Some is with the last 20 years of advancements with the metrics, what I want and why I don't like the weather game is I want accurate measurements. I want to be able to measure who's better. I've been talking for three weeks about how I think the Rams are better than the Seahawks and the three games they play doesn't prove to me that the Seahawks are actually better. Hmm. Well, okay, two things on this one. It is kind of like what you just started by saying like you want to see football players perceive differently and football makes it very hard for that to happen. I think that the irony to that is the reason football is so much more successful than the other sports in the United States is because it does sort of downplay individualism. And like we believe that every we want to see like the players have autonomy and freedom. But that's people want that for themselves. What the rest of the world that they want is to see control. And football does reflect that. Like football is the most controlled team sport there is. The thing about the weather like you're saying like you are arguing that the Rams are better than the Seahawks and what you're sort of saying is that in a vacuum, almost if this was simulated on a computer that the value of the Rams roster is greater than the value of the Seahawks roster. And if you played this game a hundred times the Rams may be 163. I guess that's true. That seems up to me a bit anithetical to the enjoyment of sports. Like I think one thing that I'm sometimes critical of analytics, not because they're wrong. But because I have a hard time sometimes understanding what the point of analytics is. It seems to be to me an attempt for people to be able to predict what's going to happen in something more actively hoping the outcome is unknown. Well, I'd say understanding or closer to understanding more than prediction. Prediction is pretty impossible. But when you say this derails the academics of it derails some of the metrics. Aaron Rodgers is the best quarterback I have ever seen. The only time he wanted Super Bowl is when he did it through domes because nobody was affecting the greatest quarterback I've ever seen. There was no weather. There were no it's the only time he's been able to win it. And so I that's not predicting. I guess it's confirming my belief on understanding. That's the best quarterback I've ever seen. How is the only one? Well, also, but you're what you're arguing though is that the best reflection of someone is always in a situation where there's nothing impacting from the outside. I mean, that it's only that it's that it's like a you know, and that I mean, and that's not it's not I'm not saying it's insane. You're certainly there's a percentage of people who agree with you. But I think that the when you start thinking with the things that draw you to any kind of pastime. What you're doing is sort of eliminating some of the most interesting details for us kind of a. I don't know almost like an intellectual comfort that you're understanding of the thing is reflected most accurately. I don't I don't know if that's like to me that that does not seem why football is interesting or football is important. I don't feel better than being right Chuck. Well, maybe I don't know. I just if there's a feel that good to be right. I guess I never out. So I don't know like that's it's an unknown thing to me. I like like I would maybe I maybe if I was ever right about anything, I would be like, oh, this is wonderful. You know, this guy's under one's. The name of the book is football. He is exceptional. Chuck, you can't be on enough. Thank you, sir for the wisdom and the relentless curiosity. Appreciate it. Thanks, dude. Don't live a tart. You don't remember the idea. I was probably like that kind of thing. Something okay. No, the home run call was that kind of swing that kind of thing. Stu got. Oh, it's a good call. Thank you. And plus it doesn't matter who's hitting it. Like you're not tailing it to a particular name. You know, all that jazz, you know, you don't got to do that. You just know that. Oh, that's a great call. Oh, that kind of swing. That kind of thing. This is the down limit our show with this two cats. That was great. That was awesome. Thank God for Chuck because he could have that conversation with Dan and he's got the boat. The feedays that Dan will respect him because what he said every single punch back that he had was so on the money. I was rooting for Chuck in that interview. Somebody should do a long form podcast with him. Oh, that's been done already. But that was great. And like he just convinced me of things. Like I used to be team dome and then I realized like every everybody's just going to be so reliant on their apps and detached that I think 20 years from now. We're going to be waxing poetic and nostalgic about like you remember the snow games. You remember how how the Raiders went in a Foxboro and no one knew what the talk rule was and how great that was. It gives things character. And I think we're going to be longing for that before long. Jared stood him through the ball backwards. Remember Jared stood him. Tony, you've had an ugly show today. What? Hold on a second. Hold on a second. What I want. You're not the only one show. You're not the only one. That was one time what I want you to do is I want you to go to an ugly place in Miami and do your top five from a symbolically ugly place that symbolizes the performance that you have had today. Go there now. I'm also going to get rid of Jeremy and he was doing you know parody songs yesterday. He was loving the parody songs in the commercials. So Jeremy, I would like for our newest sponsor here. Money Lion on the fine bucket. I want for you to do a song a commercial song for money Lion League of Room and see if you can do that. John Ressuggestions pop pop pop. I'm not we're not going to turn this into a tall 80s ballad. Not a little bit. You could just go and you figured out and Tony you go as well. And we're going to try and clean up a variety of things that we've got going on around here. That was some strong green day commentary you had. It's as low that a clausterman is saying well do you need your punk band to be punk all the time because I'm guessing your punk bands not going to allow to be allowed to play the Super Bowl if you're punk is too punk. Uh yeah, no, I think I do need my punk rock band to be punk rock all the time because that's literally what being punk rock is. And I felt it was embarrassing for green day that they you know they've talked a big game throughout their tour, you know, and for years like Chuck said going back to George Bush. And now you got the biggest stage you've ever had and they clearly followed a mandate from the NFL punk rock ain't following mandates. Okay, but by that reckoning, um, bad bunny at the Grammys said ice out. He didn't say any that at the Super Bowl have time showed you look down on bad bunny for not using that stage. I don't see maybe I don't know enough about bad bunny. I think that's a case because bad bunny's been very outspoken. This is one of the most gangster things that the people in power of the NFL have done. They not only nuke the idea of you're going to be on sportsman like on the field and it's totally normal for us to see, you know, defensive back for the Seahawks, Rick Wullen, uh, trash talk aside line and on a huge call, get a penalty. They've scrubbed that out of it. And if you want to play in their halftime show, it is such a privilege and such such a blessing. You will do it for free and you will shut up like that's the rules. Like yeah, bad bunny, the most controversial you're going to give us is you're going to say the correct things in Spanish. You're not going to say anything that offends any of the people running this sport because you decide to make too, too much of a political statement. You're going to have to try and hide it in your art the way that Prince did by going off phallic during a halftime show. And maybe this is giving him too much credit. Maybe he's just saying, all right, that's what it takes to play the Super Bowl. It's great for my career. It's great exposure, but it is meta type of thinking in that you're going to become this national talking point. You're going to become overly politicized. In the end, you're going to give your performance that is relatively non offensive, right? And people are just going to have to make things up and at the end of it, they're just going to say what's at the heart of it the whole time. You're not speaking English. You're dunking on them with the biggest halftime show of all time. Everyone's showing their ass that had any sort of criticism. They're just going back to you're not speaking English. You absolutely won the day and you won the day by following the rules. I would just, you know, back to the Green Day part, like, Dan, I would equate it to you. Like if you, if you got to sit down with an interview subject and you were because of the high profile that this subject is, you're going to have as big an audience you've ever had, but you were told there are a couple things that you are not allowed to ask. I'm fairly certain you're not going to do the interview or you're going to still ask the things. Well, that's, yeah, that's how I would try to do it. But we've been cast aside from where it is. Why no one comes on the show mainstream exists because of that. They're cost. We had Tyler Shuck as our big guest. They're, they're, they're costs to that freedom in wherever it is that you make those punk rock. Well, but is, is Green Day just given how popular they are like, I know Iggy Pop is, is punk as well. But once you become so popular, are you even still punk? That's where I think Chuck was wrong. Green Day, I'd almost every show you go to these still to this day. You know, it's not wall to wall, like he said, but they're saying something. They're saying something. They're saying something them twice recently. Yeah, but you don't get to do this if you're going to do that. That's not allowed with you. I'm not, I think it's a weird criticism to have. Like they're, they're playing the, people know what Green Day stands for. Some people are rediscovering their catalog. You think everyone knows what Green Day stands for? I think people are watching that performance realizing that it was non offensive and then they're going to their catalog as they do. This is quantifiable. Anybody that plays on the Super Bowl gets a boost and then jokes on them, they're listening to their catalog and be like, oh, man, this stuff resonates politically today. If you do what Ben but he does for living, your biggest possible stage is the Super Bowl. Your second biggest might be the Grammy Awards. So when he says ice out of the Grammy Awards, everybody in the world knows how he feels blood. Oh, but not it's not. I don't think he needs to say it again. The Grammys is the Grammys is not nearly this Greg. Not, I mean, not nearly this. I understand that. This is nothing is near this. I know, but nothing is close to this. And so it, look, I understand how it is somebody would want their punk rock band to be punk rock all the time and do something artfully there. It's prohibited. Like that place is about rules and you just heard Closterman give eloquence to we like that. We like that everyone's under control. We like the Jerry Jones isn't letting them kneel like that. It's part of why it's so popular. They've got governance over all of that. Well, you know, one owner quietly leaves his giant statue outside the stadium because he's getting alleged foot rubs that he's not supposed to get. Let's not talk about Jerry Richardson and another one's in the Epstein files allegedly. And don't look at any of that. We've got control.