So in 2015, we had a survivor give us evidence of Epstein's Island in Little St. James. There were pictures and maps and email exchanges between people and just, I mean, we could discuss that more, but this was Epstein's Island. In 2015, we had this and we did know a good FBI guy and we transferred that evidence to him and followed up with him several times and remarkably, he told us it went to his higher ups and they just let it fall. A lot of thoughts on that. So what we talk about, is it real? It's real. We talk about all the evidence just for that island. Rituals, they, we could go through all of it if you want to ask questions, but the dismissal of it is just as evil. Right. That's the decision making that someone made. Yeah. Yeah. The history of our Earth is so different from what we can imagine. It's a Smithsonian and if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right because if one person's right, it must have passed the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen charity and the problem with the modern day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop is just pregnant with all kinds of meeting associated with this Mount Hermon event. It's the blurry creatures. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. It's that time of year. You know, you're probably scrambling last minute to give some holiday gifts to your loved ones. And if you haven't yet, now's the opportunity to give the gift of blurry. That's right. We're having a 20% off sale on our membership now. It's the best discount of the year on our membership at blurrycreatures.com. So give one of those people in your life that you know loves blurry creatures. You can give a membership. That's right. You can give your family or friend a membership or give yourself a membership. Hey, you've earned it. You deserve it. And we hope you have a great holiday season out there with family and friends. Merry Christmas to everyone out there. We love you here at blurry creatures. It's been a heck of a journey from the beginning till now. So blurrycreatures.com slash members take part of this special 20% off discount for only a few more days until the new year. So that's it. blurrycreatures.com slash members join in, get all the perks. Enjoy this episode. All right. Welcome back to blurry creatures. Ferdinand Audrey back on the podcast. And if you don't remember, we had our first episode a little while ago, a trauma based mind control. We talked about the fun topics, the hard topics, the deep topics here on like satanic ritual abuse, traumas, sexual abuse, ritual abuse, all the things. And you guys have a ministry and a big part of what you do is put people back together and help them understand their stories. And when you talk about blurry things, this is the bottom of the conversation, I would say. This is the stuff that comes out that it's the hardest to understand. It's the hardest to process. And we're just grateful and thankful for people like you that not only believe people, but help them. And I think that is a big part of what we do is bridge the gap between people who've had a paranormal experience and then people who've really had an experience. And there's a lot of nacedayers around that water cooler. But whether you've seen a creature that you can't explain, or you grew up in this crazy cult practice that you don't even have memories of. But then they come back and then you have to process all that. And that's what you guys do. So thank you for coming back on blurry creatures. And we wanted to continue the conversation that we had last time. And I think through some emails you were suggesting that maybe what's the human part of this versus maybe we've interviewed a lot of people who say that demons and other entities can, well, not fully possess a person, seem to control them. And is this spiritual or is this, I guess, the conversation in the middle there of like what are, where's the lines and how do we make sense of some of these things that happen to us in the shadows? So that was a long intro, but welcome back. Wow. Good to be here. Thanks for inviting us back. Yep. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Well, how you guys been? I maybe had a lot of thoughts on Bigfoot last time. Have you captured them? Still got the trail cams out. Haven't seen them yet. But that would be the greatest thing ever, just to see something like that. Yeah. That's how we really, we really met Mike. You know, when I was a kid, all of the scriptures that were weird, you know, like Judges 11, Jeff Futh, when he went in and, you know, used his mighty left hand and all of those, I had those all memorized when I was a kid. So when I first met Mike, we just sat there and just went through them all and he unpacked them. And so I just appreciate you guys pulling the weird, but then pulling it over here and say, you know, how do we look at it from kingdom point of view? And where do we do that? And that's what that's kind of what we do. As we're looking at this, the question that you ask was, you know, what's human? What's demon? You know, which way we go? How do we do this? And every time we sit with someone, that that is where we're at. That's where we're going to. We're looking at. But one of the things that we have seen in the 30 years that I've been doing this and Audrey's with me about 25 is that when we work with the human first, the demonic is easy. And so can you imagine with someone who was hurt from child on, I guess we need to keep this little PG because of kids listen to the audio or something. But if a baby is hurt and the mind starts splitting, you know, and the child ends up in being trafficked or ritualized in any way with with trauma. The child does not have any normal development of an eye, thou being with somebody else. They have they have nothing. They don't know what that's like. And so what happens is, is the child will latch on to anything to have more power. And that's what happens at times. And so one of the things then when that that child is a teenager, 30, 40 years old, and part of them loves Jesus and part of them has been in rituals. The first place they're going to go is the church. And unfortunately, the church's mindset is going to be, oh, all demon. And I think we sit there because we've got a child that doesn't even know what an emotion is, how to stay in their body, what it's like to have an emotion and have that that emotion affects the body. So what we would really love is that the church would be understanding of, let's look at this human first and let's get their needs cared for. How are they doing? Where are they at emotionally? Are they safe? And sometimes they're not safe from themselves. They don't know that. So to work on that first, rather than, and I know this is different than other than other ministries and other places, but I'm telling you, I've done it the other way before, before we met Mike and having the church. So I was thinking about this when I was like in my forties and I was working with these folks, I thought, you know what, if I didn't have my mind and I was richly abused and you know, the stories on an altar, being, you know, hurt and, you know, demons come and joining the party and all that stuff, it's horrible. You can't go back to that. They've split life. They can't, you can't do it yet. But if that would have been me, I would want someone to help me unpack the chaos in my mind. And yes, I, and I would go to the church for that. But when the church only offers, now think about this. This is someone that has no internal locus of control, which means they don't know about themselves. They don't know. They just say, here, fix me. Because they're almost like, I'm just, I picked up a tissue and I'm holding it with my, my hand, my fingertips in disgust. Hurry, fix me. I don't know what this is. And right there, that's the question that needs answered. Who am I? I know we talked about this last time. What I'm going to get into is so often we look at the demonic here, but when we focus on the human and then we look at one of the questions that, that Audrey and I ask all the time is, yes, the perpetrators that have hurt these people, there is a, there is a demonic component to that. But where does the evil of men's hearts maintain this then? And where's that line? And that they still would have to come to the church, but the church would have to know the difference between the evil of men's hearts and the demonic and then what's human rather than just having a system of belief in the church that it's all spiritual and all demonic. So far now, I would ask, like, you know, what's, what's a practicum then? If we're to talk, we're speaking maybe directly to the church here. Like what's, what's the things that can better equip themselves to like to recognize and respond to the trauma in survivors? Believe their stories and then operate from a place that isn't just, as you said, isn't just a sort of a broad brush. Like, oh, this, we'll just take care of this with, you know, we want to cast the demons out, you know, or whatever we're going to work on the spiritual aspect. But what, you know, what do you think they can, how, how, how, how would the church better equip itself? This is your, this is you guys's, you know, wheelhouse. But yeah, as you know, most of the church isn't, most of the church isn't really prepared for someone who's even, even possessed or oppressed to show up. There's not a lot of, when it was growing, we talked to people who were exorcists and deliverance ministers. We had a really great interview recently with the deliverance minister. We haven't released yet, but, you know, some folks are really in this space, but I would say my opinion would be most churches with that are like, oh, I get that tissue thing. It's kind of like, oh, I don't, this is a little too wild for us. You know, I don't know what to do with it. And I think that one of the biggest issue in the church is the cognitive dissonance that someone was hurt this terribly. And so the default is, well, let's look at the spiritual and get rid of all this spiritual stuff and then the person will be okay. And the problem is, is that the trauma the person endured has physiological and mental emotional impacts that are outside of the spiritual realm. Right. And, you know, we've seen the comments on various different things that we've been on and that satanic ritual abuse doesn't really happen or that it's not that was debunked in the 80s like that. And this is unfortunate because that means that darkness is able to deceive that they're not that powerful or they're not that involved or that they don't control in certain places. But the evil of men's hearts is that they engage their will. That is separate from from the spiritual realm. They themselves engage their will to do more harm, have power and control over another. Yeah. Yeah. I think any Christians who live long enough can understand like, what is free will? How am I like God? And then I'm created in his image, you know, what I can do some horrible things myself just with my own free will. I can tap into that. The thing that I am as a human to do whatever I want, but also I can be influenced by this other thing too, as well as like, I think as you get older as a Christian, you start to ask those questions of like, what did God really put in us? And you know, it's like, I mean, honestly, this conversation comes with me a lot when when it comes to faith, Jesus says a lot of times this, I have found no greater faith in all Judea, except this guy, right? Like when we have faith, something happens. What does that mean? Like if it's, if we don't have any responsibility in this whole story, then faith wouldn't really be a part of it. Some people have more faith than others. That's, you read the New Testament, you can come out with a basic understanding there. What does that mean? Like what do humans have that allows us to, for greatness and also for evil outside of the unseen realm? Right. Yeah. I don't know. I just think you can, you can understand that there's something more from the basic view of the New Testament that I think a lot of people are just like, oh, yeah, I would just, but it seemed like Jesus was always wanting more of your heart, more of your, like more of the thing that makes you human and less of the sort of the robotic following the law, because we just follow the rules. There was something else he was, he was after. And I think that teaching somebody to understand that maybe a trauma survived, right? Is that what you're trying to do? Like put, you have the ability to heal. Well, how? You know, you can heal, you can get through this. You have to start to believe in yourself almost. I don't know. I think that's, I'm trying to understand, like, where do you start with? Well, I want to back up a moment and I want to come over. I'm going to come over to the right here. Luke, I think you said it was, this was a little too wild for the church or something. But that's what I want to address that. And I was thinking about this when we were coming on home from the image conference this weekend, and you guys can chime in here because you guys are brilliant. And I might be missing something and I don't mind if you correct me. But I was thinking about first century Christian, you know, if I was living in Rome and I'm a Christian, the possibility of my neighbor on the other side of my mud wall, the possibility of that person being a peg or serving another God is pretty darn high. So here I am serving Jesus, serving Yahweh. And on the other side, they're, they're doing pentagrams. They're doing their own ritual. They're on this. That didn't weird that church out, that person out. But it weirds us out so terribly that we bounce back into fear. And the first thing we want to do is miss the person, but get rid of the demon. And I think that's, that's the focus is different. So when I think of the opportunity, remember Old Testament in the Divine Council worldview, Old Testament is about look to Yahweh, you know, even the Genesis story, other Euguritic stories had the same Genesis story. But in Yahweh's story, Yahweh loved his people and the, and the other ones they had, the people had to serve the gods. And even, you know, loves potion numbers, nine, same ritual up your, they, they thought that the wife was committing adultery, take them to the priest, mix the dirt on the, in the water, them, them drink it. And when Mike said to me that he said, you know, they, it's the same, it's the same ritual in the Euguritic culture. And he just used that. So here we are. We're in, in 20, 25, and anything that is of the Divine realm, we immediately get weird about it. You know, that's why I love that you guys do the bridge over the paranormal. What happens if we just, like you guys, you guys listen, you go, I don't have an answer, but I'm going to look over here for it. I'm not going to look in the paranormal for it. I'm going to look for the answer in Yalway, to Yalway. I'm going to be, my allegiance and my loyalty is going to be this way. I am not implying that anyone moving in deliverance is not looking at Yalway. That's not what I'm applying. I'm saying for the church, the first major responses, can you imagine the first century and your neighbor's a pagan? Can we just relax about this a moment? We know this is in our worldview. Okay. And so then that means to the next thing, what do we do? The first thing that Jesus did and everyone he worked with, everyone he met, he saw the heart of the person. Yeah. Yeah.
