Mark Manson: The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck

Thank you to Time for Learning for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Schooling is one of the most important decisions you make for your children, and I'm really excited about the option Time for Learning. We are coming to that point where our kids are getting ready to enter pre-K, and there's all these decisions to make, and I love that we're in this day and age where there are so many options, but I'm also very overwhelmed by it. But I'm really excited about Time for Learning because they have everything you need to teach pre-K through 12th grade at home, but with all the core and elective classes offered in a traditional brick-and-mortar school. I love that option because you get the structure that you would like with a traditional school format, but with a personalized intimate setting of homeschooling. 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That's time, number four, learning, dot com to explore their curriculum and find the perfect plan for your student. You can get started with a monthly subscription to see just how much your kids enjoy learning on their own terms. Happiness is overrated and purpose is underrated. And the thing about purpose is that it's often hard. This idea that you can be perfectly internally validated and never worry about what other people think about you. There's a word for somebody who doesn't care what other people think about them. It's called a psychopath. We don't want to be psychopaths. A lot of people have replaced religion with politics, with economic pursuits and materialism. I'm like the most pro-religion atheist there probably is. Because if you don't place it somewhere, you could very likely place it somewhere very destructive. The meaning of your life is what you make of it. That's intimidating. It's scary. Because if you make the wrong choices or you prioritize the wrong things, guess whose fault it is, right? Guess who screwed up? Today on Unplanned, we sat down with Mark Manson, the New York Times bestselling author of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Frick. That's actually the F word. Mark's book speaks straight to your heart as a human. It's very different than the typical self-help book. We talk about why making friends as an adult is so hard, the fastest way to find your purpose, and so much more all on today's episode. Mark Manson, welcome to Unplanned. I'm happy to be here. I did not plan on it. We also have the disappointment panda in the room. We need some explanation for the panda. He's making a rare appearance. He's kind of the mascot at the front of the office. I actually don't think he's ever been on a podcast before. No way. Wait, this is his first podcast? Come here. Matt goes, how do you think our audience would think if he had a giant panda join us? I was like, maybe if you just introduced him. Oh my God, he's huge. And the t-shirt is so tight. He's heavy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a big boy. No, he's, so in my book, Subtle Art, Not Giving a Fuck, he's, I create a superhero called Disappointment Panda. and his superpower is he tells people truths that they don't want to hear like but they need to hear right yeah so it's like uh yeah the the problem in all your relationships is you like that's he just goes door to door to like a bible salesman and like knocks on their door and just tells them like the really awful thing that they need to hear about themselves i love the quote from your book it's like the panda going to someone's door and saying hey making more money isn't actually going make you happier it's not gonna make your kids like you either like that's our boy which i mean man it's it's so it's so convicting though because i i put the a prompt into ai reading reading your book i was like i'm gonna have ai do this disappointment panda thing to me and it like reading the response back was like whoa like it just it shook me and the funny thing too was it essentially restated the title of your book in a way it essentially told me to like stop caring about so much and focus on yeah like focus on less essentially is what it told me to do because i'm trying to do i'm trying to do too much i want to be the best at everything and that's simply impossible and i'm going to drive myself crazy and those around me crazy by trying to be the most efficient person in every aspect of my life you know yeah yeah how did you come up with that idea of the Disappointment Panda? You know, it's really funny. So when I'm writing, I often have this situation where I'm like, okay, the idea is good, but this is boring. And there was a section of the book where I was like, okay, the content is good, but I'm just bored reading it. And so in those situations, I start asking myself, I'm like, how can we make this fun? Yeah. And often, you know, most authors, they'll like pull some historical story or example, right? or like some quote Steve Jobs said one time. And I had already done that in a bunch of other places in the book. And I was like, that's also boring. Like, let's just, maybe it was the mood I was in, but I was like, let's get crazy. So I was like, what if I had a superhero and they just like, they just were awful. It was like the superhero nobody wanted to see coming down the street. And that's how he was born. And it's funny because when you're writing, sometimes you just have a hunch and you like go with it and I'd say nine times out of ten it ends up being terrible. Yeah. But then like one time out of ten it ends up being brilliant. And you know Disappointment Panda is probably the most cited. I mean people there are people with Disappointment Panda tattoos. No way. Yeah. They've like sent pictures to me and you know. That's so gnarly. He's definitely had staying power for sure. It's so descriptive. Like you can't forget that panda with the too tight t-shirt that he on it. And the sombrero. is that an added touch that you you put in recently or yeah well no it's so in the book like the whole section section of disappointment panda is just so unhinged and weird um that i was like well you know what's the movie is it is it old school where they're like you know if you're gonna go go full or whatever why do i not know that movie there's some saying like that from like an old Will Ferrell movie, but it was just like, okay, if we're going to go weird, like let's just go all the way. And so by the end of the section, I've got like this appointment panda sitting on a patio, watching the sunset, sipping a margarita. I love it. And I was like, obviously he's wearing a sombrero. Yeah. Because why not? And that's what pandas do, right? And it was just, I think I was just going for maximal what the f*** energy in that chapter. And I guess it worked. something something that i love about you from just like everything i've seen is you you clearly are just like authentically yourself you you don't hold back you're you're not you're not giving an f and and like like i'm pretty sure this is the first podcast we'll probably just mute you saying the f word we don't we don't we don't cuss on here like i guess i'll just be saying f and frick if that's okay sure i should i should have asked i apologize no you're good no no you don't need it You don't need to change yourself for us. But like, that was a bold move to release a book with the F word in the title, right? Like, I'm guessing when you released the subtle art of not giving a frick, sorry, I know that. But like, when you released the book. We should apologize. Yeah, I'm apologizing to you. I'm like, miss. In my studio, you dropped the F bomb. But like, when you went to release that book, was there anyone in your life that was like, hey, Mark, are you sure you want to have the F word in your book title? Well, it's funny because it was actually, it was like a very contentious debate with the publishers. Like when we were shopping, when my agent and I were shopping the book around, we basically shopped it with two titles. And we told them, we're like, we prefer the F bomb title. And by that point, you know, I had been blogging for about four or five years and I had a bunch of articles go viral. and we had seen that like the f bomb just like it just kills yeah everybody clicks on it so we kind of went to the publishers and we're like we think this is gonna work data yeah like we've seen this work we're pretty sure it's gonna work um but most of the publishers were like no no we're not gonna touch that and um it's actually funny in hindsight the big concern at the time was that walmart wouldn't carry it that was like the big like that was the the like oh no this is impossible this is like 10 years ago they're like we don't want to upset walmart you know that's funny i wouldn't have expected i don't really think about walmart for books right yeah but i think at the time it was you know they were amazon was the biggest retailer walmart was the second biggest so they're like you know probably 20 30 percent of the market and uh so a bunch of the publishers were like this is just a no-go and my editor uh at harper collins who i eventually i actually signed the deal with like he really fought for it he was like no no this is you this is the book this is the message like we should you know live by the sword die by the sword yeah so to speak so it's funny because i actually wasn't that attached to it like a lot of authors get very up in arms and possessive you know they think their their baby is like perfect and beautiful and everybody should love think it's brilliant like they do i was kind of like look i don't there are plenty of good titles in the world i don't need to have this one but to my editor's credit he he actually really fought for it and was like no it has to be in the title i like that is it did walmart eventually cave it did the funny thing is too is is uh they they came back to us uh maybe like a year later six months a year later and they're like okay we'll stock it but you have to put a black box over the entire f-word so as if like censoring one letter wasn't good enough for them they're like you have to censor the whole word and then we'll put it on the shelf and so because i'm guessing a lot of retailers like they they probably wouldn't have displayed the book if you actually had the f-word right like that so that i'm guessing the publisher was pretty like pushed having the the asterisk in the title yeah okay yeah yeah that's like pretty necessary i actually think there's laws around what you're allowed to like sell in certain places with the F word. There's famously, there's, we really want to bring profanity to the podcast. There are actually seven curse words that are not allowed. I think the FCC regulates them, right? So you can't say them on TV. So it's like- Let them rip. Let them rip. We can mute it or whatever if we need to. He's got me memorized. You got them memorized on the top of your head. I think it's mother****er. That's four of them. I forget what the others are. We'll get back to you. Everybody will say, we'll get back to you on this. Circling back. You're not allowed to put it on broadcast television. You're not allowed to put it in a newspaper or magazine. You're not allowed to put it on a store shelf. You have to censor it in some way. Either bleep it or block a letter out. But it was funny because Walmart was like, oh no, censoring the U isn't enough for us because we're Walmart. So we're going to make you censor all four letters. And was cursing just a part of your life growing up? Or was there like a definitive moment where you were like, I'm going to curse now. I'm going to say the F word now. I'm no longer going to say Frick. I'm going to say the actual word. I just thought I've always talked this way. Really? Yeah. Okay. Because I see I grew up like in like Bible Belt, Missouri. So just now as a 27 year old father of two, I've started saying saying the F word sometimes. Good for you. Now that you're a father. I don't know. I still don't know how I feel about it. Yeah. Now that I'm a father. That's what did it. That's what did it. The father did it. Wow. The father did it. Uncorked it. All those late nights changing diapers at 2 a.m. Yeah. There you go. Crazy. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I also grew up in the Bible Belt. But I think for me, it was, I was very rebellious. Okay. I didn't like where I grew up. So I was like, and that's why you sold drugs in middle school. Is that right? It is why I sold drugs in middle school. It came in full circle. It all came around. How did your parents react, by the way? Well, no, they grounded you. I read it in the book. They grounded you. My life ended, basically. Yeah. I was put on like house arrest, essentially. I think that was a good call. I mean, to be fair, I mean, it was it's interesting because looking back, my poor parents. Sometimes I go home for like Thanksgiving and my mom is like, you know, I love your podcast, but do you really have to talk about your childhood so much? And she's like, we did our best with what we know. I'm like, I know, mom. I know. Like, so shout out to my mom. Shout out to mom. She's a great mom. She loves me very much. She did her best, but, you know, no parent is perfect. But, like, my parents' marriage was coming apart. And so, like, in hindsight, as an adult, I can see what happened, which is my parents' marriage was coming apart. Obviously, when your marriage is coming apart, like, you don't have the energy to, like, stay super connected with your kids, right? Like, you're just in full survival mode, maintenance mode. so my brother and I and then of course you know it's like my brother and I kind of picked up on the tension and the turbulence in the house and we're not getting like mom like we're not being paid attention to like it's everything's uncomfortable it's not it's not a good home to be in emotionally so you start lashing out as a kid right so you start you've got to channel and direct that energy somewhere and so he and I both rebelled in our own ways. And for me, it was selling drugs in middle school and dropping F-bombs, I guess. Thank you to Cash App for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Have you ever known someone who has fallen for a scam? I do. Me. Many times I have fallen victim to online scams. And you know what? I'm going to give myself a little credit. 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For a limited time, new Cash App customers can earn $10 if they use the code SECURE10 in their profile at sign up and send $5 to a friend within 14 days. Terms apply. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's bank partners. Prepaid debit card issued by Sutton Bank, member FDIC. Discounts for promotions provided by Cash App, a Block Inc. brand. Visit cash.app slash legal slash podcast for full disclosures. In your book, you talk about Buddha and how he came to be and suffering. And it was just like so insightful. Did you like grow up Christian, but then become Buddhist essentially? Or was that just something that you like gained a lot of, you know, ideas and your belief systems from? So I was raised Christian. I think around age like 13 or 14, I kind of, I just, I kind of stopped believing in it, but I, I, I got curious about a lot of other religions. And so then I got very curious about Buddhism and got, it was very into Buddhism. I'd say from like age 19 to 25, meditated a lot. We'd go on retreats and studied a lot of it. Buddhism has been very influential on me from like kind of a intellectual philosophical point of view. It really wasn't until I was in my thirties that I started to really appreciate how much Christianity has been influential on me. Like, I think it took me until I was like 35 to start coming back around and noticing all of the, just like the seeds that came from church and came from Christianity and being exposed to it at such an early age. So those two are like very strong influences in my work. And it's funny because like, I still technically like consider myself an atheist, although I joke on my podcast that I'm like the most pro-religion atheist there probably is. Like I, why is that? Well, I think it's just, I think religion, it just serves a very useful and psychologically important function for people. Um, and it's, I think atheists tend to underestimate how much faith they're putting in other things. Like I, I honestly think like humans are just wired to have faith in something. Yeah. And there's a good argument for directing that faith towards one of these kind of ancient mythological structures and sets of morals and practices with 3,000 years of history, 2,000 years of history. I think there's like a very strong argument for that because if you don't place it somewhere, you could very likely place it somewhere very destructive and very harmful, right? So I think like a lot of people have replaced religion with politics. I think a lot of people have replaced religion with economic pursuits and materialism. I think in my industry, a lot of people have replaced religion with self-help and like, quote unquote, like personal growth and spirituality and whatnot. And I just think it's like a lot of these other things, there are a lot of bad side effects and a lot of them are kind of untested and i think a lot of people kind of lose themselves in them i actually have a lot of appreciation for what religion does both like in terms of an individual's psychology and happiness and also like the communities that it fosters for people like because i i just that's the biggest thing that i miss when i think about my childhood is like i i i think about the community that my parents had around them and i'm frankly i'm envious like i don't have that in my life and most people I know our age don't have that in their lives right so if you don't mind me asking what have you replaced religion with in your life sorry that was deep that like yeah it's a great question it's a great question the short answer is I've I think I've replaced it with philosophy I've spent most of my adult life reading and thinking about a lot of philosophy and thinking very deeply about like what my ethics are and what principles I believe in and what beliefs I have about the universe but like I also recognize that I don necessarily think they they any better or worse than anybody else Right. So it's, there may be a little bit more grounded and a little bit more like logically consistent and challenged, you know, because most of the philosophers I'm a huge fan of their ideas have been around for centuries. But yeah, I think what philosophy lacks and that I definitely feel like I lack in my life is um is that social component that community right the ritual of it yeah um the practice of it like the fact that you know like if you're um if you're taking communion on easter it's like people have been doing this for 2 000 years right the exact same thing that you're doing there's there's a certain amount of like significance and meaning that comes with that that um i don't think you can replicate with like a yoga seminar out in Malibu or you know 100% or even a philosophy course right you know yeah reading the classics something you mentioned that surprised me and I would think would maybe surprise other people listening to this podcast is you saying like that there's some dangers potentially around like self-help and seeing that that's like what the topic of your book it kind of fits in that category probably like Barnes and Noble it's under that section like I think that's surprising. Like, I'm curious, like, what do you think are some of the dangers around self-help and, like, that kind of phenomenon? I do think there are a lot of drawbacks. And it's funny because, like, subtle art was, in many ways, it was written as a counterargument to a lot of the self-help industry. Like, I just, I felt like there was a lot of bad assumptions and bad behavior going on in the market. and I was, and Subtle Art was very intentionally kind of a middle finger to it of like, guys, this is nonsense, right? This idea that you can just be happy all the time and everything's great and awesome. It's like, no, life doesn't work that way. And in fact, if you try to think that way, like you're just gonna become this like delusional looney tune who's completely detached from reality or this idea that like you can be perfectly internally validated and never worry about what other people think about you. Like, no, there's a word for somebody who doesn't care what other people think about them. It's called a psychopath. And we don't want to be psychopaths, right? You want it. You should care what your partner thinks about you. You should care what your kids think about you. Like, it matters. Yeah. So the question isn't how do you stop caring what people think about you? The question is, is, like, who do you care what they think about you? And how are you, like, what are the reasons that you care, right? because there are good and bad reasons to compare yourself to others. If you look at like a role model or a hero or something, like it's like, yeah, you should compare yourself to that person because it's inspirational. It encourages you to become a better person. Like a lot of my work is kind of just pointing out those counter arguments to people. In terms of specifically some of the damage that I see done, the simplest way to put it is that I would say that Real happiness is not always pleasant. Real happiness is often difficult, challenging, and painful. And I think what this market promises, self-help in general, it kind of, it gets like a drug dealer almost. It gets people hooked on constantly pleasant feelings, right? So it's like, if you do this practice, you'll always feel good. If you meditate this way, you'll always feel good. If you just ignore all the people who don't like you, then you'll always feel good. It's actually really encouraging people to become very narcissistic and self-indulgent in the name of being happy or whatever. I often see people who spend a lot of time in this industry become very, very narcissistic in that way. And it's not good. Since writing the book, it's almost been a decade, which is crazy. Has anything changed as far as the values you have? This question is actually very appropriate because the 10th anniversary is coming up next year. And we're going to do a 10th anniversary edition. So part of that edition is I'm going to give the book a minor revision and kind of go through and decide if there's anything I want to keep or change or expand or whatever or rewrite. And I haven't done that yet, but like I've kind of gone back and skimmed through the book. I mean, I will say this, like all the big ideas I stand behind, I still believe I wouldn't really change any of the macro statements. Most of the stuff that I'm probably going to end up changing are going to be like very minor phrasings and line rewrites. And I just think there's probably better ways to express certain ideas or maybe certain things need a little bit more elaboration and other things maybe cut a couple lines out. So that's my expectation. But the short answer is no, I pretty much stand by everything and especially the radical responsibility piece. Like it's, you know, coming back to what my faith is, right? So I like the school of philosophy that I identify with is existentialism and existentialism's like core precept is the meaning of your life is what you make of it. We all have a limited amount of time. And in that limited amount of time, we all have to make choices of how we spend it. And you have no option in that. Like, even if you don't do anything, that is a choice that you're spending your time on not doing anything, right? So it's like at any given moment, you are constantly making a choice of what to spend your time on, what to spend your attention on, what to put your intention behind. Whatever you choose, that is indicative of some sort of prioritization, right? So, you know, the fact that you guys are here, it like indicates that this podcast is important to you, that it is a high priority for you. And so you organize other parts of your life around it. And the fact that you are always making those choices, no matter what, no matter if good things happen to you, bad things happen to you, other people are nice to you, other people are horrible to you, you are always making those choices in every single moment. Like what matters to you? What is your priority? Uh, there is a responsibility that comes with that. You guys could walk outside of the studio and, and God forbid, you know, it's like, uh, get hit by a car and it's, it's not your fault that that happens, but it's still your responsibility. You chose to be here. You chose to travel. You've got kids back home. You got it. Like, you've got to get better. You got to recover. Like it's in every moment you, you have that option to make a choice of what to pay attention to, how to react to what's happened to you, what you're going to learn for it, what intentions you're going to have. And so there is just this permanent state of responsibility that we all live within. And that's intimidating. It's scary. Like it's because if you, if you make the wrong choices or you prioritize the wrong things, guess whose fault it is, right? Guess who screwed up? And people don't like to think about that. So we find ways to pretend that it's not our responsibility. We're like, oh, well, it's not my fault. Oh, no, it's the economy. Oh, that guy, he's mean to me because he's jealous. Oh, she's an idiot, right? Like it's, we pretend that there are all these things controlling our lives outside of ourselves. And while we are influenced by things outside of ourselves, it is always ultimately our responsibility to choose in every single moment what matters and what does not. I really resonate with your book. I really resonate with the values that you lay out in it. And something that honestly I didn't expect to happen in my 20s was becoming a dad. Like we just kind of got married young, had kids young. And at first it was like really hard. And I was like, what the frick did I do? This is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. But now it's become the best thing in my life. Like there's no, like last night, even though maybe it's a little annoying that I don't get the best sleep right now. Because my three-year-old is like wanting to sleep in our bedroom and sometimes sleep in the bed with us because he just gets scared. it is so sweet when I like look over at like my at my kid and he like just says to me in the night like love you dad like it's just like it's turned me into it just like melts my heart that I have this sweet little boy who looks up to me and thinks I'm thinks I'm a superhero thinks I'm a superhero like the disappointment maybe a better superhero that's a little more compassionate disappointment panda uh and so yeah i guess the question i want to ask you which if this is too personal we can completely edit this out but like is having kids something that you you want to like see in your life don't miss jay shetty's new audible original series messy love difficult conversations for deeper connection join jay as he guides three couples toward a deeper understanding of themselves and their relationships this isn't about achieving perfect love it's about practice love. In each episode, Shetty invites us into coaching sessions behind closed doors with couples navigating the complicated terrain of modern relationships. You'll witness raw moments of vulnerability as they work through resentment, broken trust, and generational patterns. No script, no filters, and no certainty of the outcome. Through these intimate sessions, Jay shares tools you can use to communicate with clarity and compassion, break painful cycles of blame and withdrawal create emotional safety and rebuild trust turn daily moments into rituals of appreciation emotional inspirational at moments even transformational this is messy love listen to jay shetty's new audible original series messy love difficult conversations for deeper connection go to audible.com slash messy love to start listening today is having kids something that you you want to like see in your life that ship has sailed at least um in my in my marriage um my, my wife and I were in our forties at this point. And it's, it's interesting because I, I wanted kids for a while and, and we tried for a while and it kind of didn't happen. And then we kind of reached this point where it's like, okay, if it's going to happen, it's going to be a lot of work. You know, you're gonna have to do the whole harvest the eggs and IVF and all this stuff. And my wife took a look at it and she was like, honestly, this is a lot, you know, she's had health problems over the years. So she was just like, I don't know if I'm up for this. And I realized in that moment, I was like, you know, I could see a version of my life where I'm a dad and it's full of meaning and extremely exciting and interesting and challenging and has a lot of purpose to it. But I can also see a version of my life without kids. And I can see a ton of meaning, ton of joy, a lot of interesting challenges, a lot of meaningful work. I realized I was like, I was kind of okay with it. Kids are, what I have observed is that, you know, there's one of the chapters in Subtle Art is called Happiness is Overrated. And I think you could kind of summarize the chapter by saying that happiness is overrated and purpose is underrated, like a sense of meaning or a sense of like a reason to get up in the morning, I think is underrated. And the thing about purpose is that it's often unpleasant. It's often hard. You don't sleep well, right? Like, oh God, your kid's having a meltdown again. And like, they're like throwing a tantrum and making a mess everywhere. And you're like, ah, this again, right? But it's, even though it's not pleasant, it's meaningful. And I think at the end of the day, people crave meaning more than they crave pleasure. And my observation is that kids are probably the fastest and most direct route to a sense of purpose. Even though it's hard, even though there are many days where you're like, oh my God, I'd give anything to just like take off to Fiji or something and like have a week to myself. There is that very intense sense of purpose and meaning that it's very hard to replicate anywhere else. wow that's that's actually really cool that you're saying that because i like i've just experienced that in my own life yeah like i not that i want my kid to be in no way should they feel the weight of like i've got to make sure my dad's mental health is okay because i'm like i'm his reason to get up in the morning but it really has been so good for me to be a dad especially with like some personal things i've gone through over the past like two years right now I'm like getting off antidepressants and it's like just the whole, the whole dad thing has really brought a purpose and meaning to my life that I never thought I would have. That's very interesting. Actually. Do you think, you think those two things are directly related? The antidepressants and the kids? No. Okay. No, no. It wasn't because I had kids that I got on antidepressants. That was like a whole other thing completely. Oh, actually. Yeah. Yeah. actually i feel like i like right now one of my purposes in my life is figuring out to be like i want to be the best version of myself so that my kids can look up to me and like i can be a leader for them and they i don't want to make stupid decisions that might be like fun or exciting in the moment that are then gonna like i don't know cause damage in life later that like then my kids could look at me and be like oh yeah my dad like my i hate my dad he did this my like i want to be a good person for my kids to look up to. It's interesting. Like most people assume that depression is kind of a lack of joy or happiness, but it's, it's actually a lack of purpose, right? Like it's a hundred percent. And it's funny because when somebody is depressed, their friends and family are like, you know, let's go get pizza. Let's watch the game. You know, it's like very like kind of little superficial, but it's like really what that person's lacking is just like a deeper, like they need a reason to get up. Right. It's just like, okay, show me something that matters. And so it's interesting that those two things are kind of happening at the same time. The other thing, we were talking earlier about not caring what other people think. And probably the most common question I get at my events is people will stand up and they're like, how do I stop giving what other people think? And my answer is always like, you can't. You are always going to care what other people think. The question is, is what do you care about more than what other people think, right? Like, what do you care about more than yourself being liked? What are you willing to be disliked for? And I think another thing that children do for a lot of people is, is, and maybe this is true for you, but like, it's often the first thing in their life that they're like, this is more important than me. Like I will be disliked for this, right? Like I, I will, I will, I don't care what people think because I like, I'm going to do what's right for my kids. I want to talk a little bit. This is kind of going back a little bit, but I think it was really humble of you to talk about how something you envy that your parents had, even though growing up, you're like, I didn't have like necessarily envy their marriage. Right. But you envy the fact that they like had community. And I listened to your podcast on making friends as an adult. And it kind of, it reminded me of that. And I think that's a big conversation today. Because as you touched on your podcast, like, I feel like we're getting lonelier and lonelier as people. What's the statistics on it? Do you have it memorized? awful i don't have it off the top of my but it's like awful yeah like we're like getting lonelier and lonelier and um it seems like i feel like a lot of people especially in our age group find themselves lonely maybe for like some of the first times in their life because like you have all these institutions usually like elementary school middle school high school college and it was like kind of organized for you you can find yourself lonely in those things too but especially like once you're i feel like college happens you're like dumped and you're like go and then you're all of a sudden maybe in a workplace where you're like not the same age as your co-workers or maybe you're working remotely a lot of you're working from home yeah and so um listening to that podcast was very interesting for me because i would describe you as very logical would you say that yes like why do we do the thing why do we have friends like what's the purpose of friendship yeah because me i would say i'm not logical matt would you say that uh not very logical what do you mean by that when you're putting me on this piece he's got like deer in headlights right now I'm inviting feedback right now I feel like I go based on like feelings right like I'm like oh this just feels good and like this feels I don't know but I feel like your intuition is good though like I always go to you I'm like Abby what's your take on this person we just met and then she'll tell me like how she felt no really I feel like you have a really good read of character I think you have a good judge of character you really do thank you but like a lot of your conversation was around like the purpose of friendship and like why as humans like we have friendship and like largely like a larger community the like scientific question of why humans have friendships is really fascinating because a lot of species don't a lot of species are not various like the they're everybody's a loner they don't stay in groups or packs or if they do it's only families right so it's like the humans are quite unique in that we spend a very large percentage of our time with people and we care very deeply about people who are not related to us. That's relatively rare in the animal kingdom. So when evolutionary biologists and psychologists looked at this, it was actually quite a big conundrum. And without getting too nerdy into all the math, it really turns out that it's kind of funny. Physically, we're pretty mediocre in the animal kingdom. Most of the other apes and primates are much stronger than us. Most other mammals are faster than us. We don't really climb very well. We can't run very well. Like we're, our eyesight's not great. Our sense of smell is not great. Really the thing that we have is just, we have really, really big brains. And, uh, those brains allow us to coordinate across lots of people to remember, um, you know, you did this for me. And so I'm going to do this for you. And, um, and you have this sort of reputation. So I'm going to talk to you a certain way and talk to you a different way because of your reputation. That's kind of our superpower in terms of the species. Why did we evolve that? Well, it's interesting because there's, if you think of an insurance company, like really what you're doing is you're pooling risk together. Let's say you and I are in a tribe with 100 people and we want to go hunt an elephant. And if we catch the elephant, it's gonna feed the entire tribe for like a week. But chances are really slim. Like we're probably like 90% chance we're going to fail. Now, if it was just you and me, that would be a hugely risky endeavor. We run the risk of starving. We run the risk of our families starving. So you don't really have the option to go do it. But if you have 100 people and let's say 90 of them are picking berries and eating shrubs or whatnot, and they're able to cover the food needs of everybody else, then that frees us up to go take a huge risk and go hunt a big elephant and try to find something that's going to have like this huge reward for the group. And so it's kind of this like risk reward calculation within human nature that is the reason that friendships emerge, right? Like it's if you are able to rely on a network of people who care about you and who you've done good things for and you trust that they're going to do good things for you, it allows you to go take bigger risks in life. It allows you to like go start that company or move to that new place or ask out that person that you feel like is out of your league Because it like if you get shot down and fail you know there are people who are you still going to get your needs met In the prehistoric days it was your physical needs that were still going to be met. And these days, it's your emotional and social needs are still going to be met. It's cliche, but we are all stronger together. And there is a very evolutionary and biological proof that the reason we are such a dominant species is because we are social and we're able to rely on each other and build relationships with each other. So it's like friendship is an unequivocally universally good thing. It's like very much hardwired into our nature. We need friends. It's actually for our mental health and our psychological well-being. In many ways, it's more important than a romantic relationship. If you take a person who has a romantic relationship but no friends, they're probably gonna have much worse health and psychological outcomes than a person who has plenty of friends and no romantic partner. The person with no romantic partner but plenty of friends is actually probably gonna be a very happy, well-adjusted human. The person with a romantic partner and zero friends is not. So it is like so fundamental to our nature. And I just think that gets lost these days. Like people don't, don't, don't, like I think we just take it for granted and it's been really interesting too, especially like the last three or four years because friendship content was like never really a thing in my industry. Like people just, there wasn't much demand for it. But like since the pandemic, it's crazy. It's just like people are craving it and people are showing up and they're like, how do I make a friend? How do I keep a friend, right? Like, how do I meet more people? I don't like, I have nothing to do. I don't know anybody. and uh it's it's kind of like a very very startling recent trend that has shown up yeah I think it's a good thing too and like the practical application in like today's world like our tribes now like you kind of expanded on later in that podcast is the tit for tat thing and so what does that look like in today's age like is it going first and being like hey like I'm gonna show up for you here or is it like how do people apply that now yeah they're like okay, how do we start this? This episode is brought to you by Square. Your favorite neighborhood spots run on Square. I think as a parent, we're constantly thinking of ways that we can kind of give our kids a little bit more responsibility, independence, and honestly, household lemonade stand is kind of a staple in a child's life. But think about how much more awesome it is with Square. Yes, exactly. Like think about you're seeing a bunch of kids selling lemonade. You're like, I don't have cash on me. Who has cash? But you're like, I got my credit card. And then if they had a Square thing, which a lot of kids do now, like people are getting creative and doing this just like, you know, local restaurants, local coffee shops, all using Square. They could really rack in the lemonade stands. Honestly, I think we're going to use Square when our kids eventually get old enough to run a lemonade stand because then they can take credit card. Hopefully this summer. Square also recently launched a wave of innovative new tools to help local businesses run faster, smarter, and more profitably. A few new features are Square AI and Financial Suite. Square AI brings all your business data to your fingertips for deeper insights and faster decisions right from the Square dashboard. Just ask a question like, what were my top sellers last month? Or which day of the week is slowest? You'll get instant answers. Their new financial suite gives you a crystal clear view of your business health. 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It could just simply be like, we work together or we live on the same street. The biggest fact, like the most important of those really is that exposure. And if you think of, you mentioned school, right? Like if you think about when we're growing up, school by its very nature, you are forced into proximity with hundreds of other kids. You're exact same age. You have plenty of things in common. You're doing all the same thing at the same time. And then you see each other all day, every day for years. So it's like friendship is, it's almost inevitable. in a school environment, which is great. Like kids should have that. And we have that up through college and university. But then, like you said, you get dumped in the real world. And suddenly you are in this like highly dynamic environment. Everybody's like running in a different direction, doing their own thing. And nobody's ever explained to you like how this is supposed to work, like how you're supposed to make a friend as an adult. And what complicates it even more is that the most common places that people used to make friends, which was church, workplace, and then community, like being neighbors. All three of those things have been like incredibly disrupted over the last 20 years, right? So church attendance and religiosity is all time low. Workplace. So I think there was a statistic, I think back in like the 1970s, the average job duration, like if you took a job at a company i think on average you would be at that company for nine years today it's less than two years it's like 18 months right so so people are switching jobs every 18 months so it's like by the time you even get to know your co-workers you're like you're going somewhere else and you're moving on uh people change people move and change cities more often than ever before and then of course people are working from home so it's like you're not even seeing your coworkers, much less like getting to know them. So it is like all the traditional means of, of people having proximity and frequent exposure to, to, to other people are essentially like removed from our lives in the 2020s. So we just don't even have that, that baked in repetition. And it's funny because kind of the conclusion Drew and I came to on that, on that episode is that I think people overestimate how much you have to have in common with somebody to be friends with them and they underestimate just how much exposure you have to have like if you have two people who are who like really just like have some basic commonalities like we both like to watch football and play golf like but you put us in the same room for 50 days in a row we'll probably become friends whereas like i think people these days they're like oh no they like we have to have everything in common and have the same beliefs and values and want to do the same things and be able to travel together and all this stuff. And it's like, no, most of that stuff doesn't actually doesn't even matter. Our friend group that we've essentially developed over the past year is really just built off of the women that Abby works out with at the gym. And they all happen to work out at a gym where there's free childcare. So all these moms can bring their kids and we all have kids the same age. And then the dads, we've all become friends too. So now we hang out and then our kids started playing on a soccer team together and so now we've kind of like entered this stage of life where you know in in a way i guess i guess the moms first banded together but like our our kids friend like we're our friends are the parents of our kids friends well yeah we kind of orchestrated that because they're two and three yeah but actually that episode had me thinking because you you brought up how what would can disrupt a friendship is if one someone like you're gonna say this so much better than me but if someone correct me if i'm wrong. It has like perceived higher success than the other person. It can go either way. Correct. And so I was like, then you talked about the things like whatever that's measured in, you gave the example of like someone that plays professional golf. If someone like makes it big all of a sudden, and that was like how you deemed yourself successful at life that you can't hardly be friends with them at that point. And so it had me then like deep diving, like what is it that we all are measuring as success that just happens to be aligned. Um, but I think that's very interesting and that's it's the other thing i think that complicates all this right so if you think back to when you're in high school or college everybody's on the same level yeah right like everybody's you're the same age you have no life experience you're broke your whole future is in front of you so like that's true there's like zero status you all have no money yeah like there's no measurement going on like nobody's nobody's decisions and choices are being worn on their sleeve like that's the thing that changes once you once you hit 30 or 40 everybody's decisions are now being worn on their sleeve. Like you can see how things turned out for them. And if you are somebody who cares a lot about something, like let's say you are somebody who wants to make a lot of money and suddenly some of the guys you went to high school with are making more than you, like that gets weird. And there starts to be like this weird jealousy or feeling or, you know, or it's, and it can be about anything. Like it's, it can be, you know, one person. In the episode, I used golf, but like it could be like somebody who, you know, really wanted to want to have a bunch of kids and then didn't have kids. Right. And then it's like their best friend has a bunch of kids. And now it gets weird because it's everybody measures themselves with a with an internal yardstick. And so if you start seeing yourself fall behind on that yardstick to the people around you, you get insecure and that starts complicating everything. It's almost like a fourth factor. Yeah. From the people that you've spoken to about purpose in life, have you noticed more of a common trend in life satisfaction with people having friends or people that, like you said earlier, are parents? Because you said something about how having kids brings a purpose and meaning to life for a lot of people. So in psychology, the psychological literature itself, psychologists measure quality of life on three different metrics. So the first one is basically just like a consistent sentiment. Like, how are you feeling day to day? Are you generally happy? Do you feel good? Are like things going well? It's very short term. It's kind of like more, it's mostly pleasure, right? Yeah. Like, are you happy today? Scale from one to 10. And you're like, yeah, I had pizza and watched a good movie. Like, sure, I'm a nine, you know? And it's, that's kind of the most superficial metric. And it's interesting because a lot of happiness research, quote unquote, is based on that very short term sentiment based metric. um so so there's like some famous research that says that actually kids make people miserable and it's well yeah because they measured them on that like short term like how are you feeling today right and it's like well i slept three hours last night and the baby's crying again so i'm a three yeah thank you very much if you see that viral chapel rome clip from her on call her daddy where she's like all my friends with kids are miserable yes yep so i mean it's it's true like i mean you guys know it's like that first year is hard. Yeah. Yeah. So it's so there's that metric. Right. And then there's a second metric, which is life satisfaction. Generally, the question they ask in the surveys is on a scale from one to 10 with 10 being the best possible life you can imagine for yourself. Like, where are you right now? Most people say around a seven. That's kind of like a medium term metric just because generally like if if if somebody is asking you, you know, how good is your life in general? How good do you feel about your decisions? Chances are you're mostly thinking about probably the last five or 10 years and maybe the next five years. I understand that is a long time, but like it can get much larger. So the the third metric is that's the purpose and meaning metric. So it's like, do you feel like how much purpose or meaning do you feel like you have in your life. Generally, the best way to think about that is like if you died, how much do you feel like you're leaving to the world? Like how much of an impact do you think you've had on on the world, the universe? That's so deep. What legacy are you leaving? Right. And that's why kids are so powerful. Right. Because it's like even if something happens to you, you know that they're going to live on and that you've like major imprint on them and they're going to go on and do things that you can't even imagine. And that's just like such a deep level of meaning and profundity that like you can't really match that with, it's a completely different scale or measurement, right? So it's funny, generally, you asked about parents versus friendships. Yeah. So parents, generally they score low on those first, the first metric for sure. They're like, I need sleep. And oh my God, if my six-year-old doesn't stop talking about dinosaurs, I'm going to like jump out of a window. But if you ask them about purpose, they're like, no, I feel a lot of purpose and meaning like it's no, I feel like I feel like every day matters. Whereas if you ask somebody, say, with a lot of friends or a really fun social life, generally they'll score much higher on those first two measures. Right. So they're like, yeah, I'm having a great time. I just had this great trip, you know, went surfing with my friends and they may even score, you know, they generally score higher on life satisfaction as well. But, you know, purpose and meaning is a deeper, longer term thing that it's really hard to access. I think it's like very few things get at it. I really think it's like career, family, religion. And like the list isn't much longer than that. As someone that is not having kids and, you know, probably at this point won't be having kids from what we talked about. How do you fill in that gap in your life? Where do you drive that purpose and meaning that a lot of people get from having children from in your own life? For me, it's very much my career. I find my work extremely meaningful and I find a lot of purpose in it. And when it was clear that we weren't going to have kids, I kind of looked at my life and I'm like, all right. I was just given a massive amount of time over the next 18 years, right? Because it's, there's all this time that most people are going to be spending raising kids time and energy that like, I'm going to have that for myself. Right. So I asked myself, I'm like, what is meaningful that I can invest this into that legacy question? Like, what can I leave behind that's going to be impactful? And for me, like the simplest answer is work. um so i i mean i'm already i've always been a little bit of a workaholic but like i mean it's it's been much more conscious the last few years of like hey i've got a great thing going and i have i'm like in a very privileged and fortunate position to to have this platform and have this audience and have yeah this skill set and this knowledge um and so i'm just gonna work my ass off to make the most of it and try to like leave the world a better place if you could sum it all up is that the legacy you want to leave is just leaving this world whenever whenever you die whenever that happens you want to leave it better than you found it is that kind of how you'd sum it up yeah in a nutshell thank you to neutraful for sponsoring this portion of today's episode it is the new year we are making a lot of promises to ourselves and the thing is i don't want to be a debbie downer but resolutions come and go but real lasting growth does take time and And that's why I love that Nutraful isn't promising a miracle in 30 days because that's honestly just not realistic. 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And you know, it really saved me multiple times and I give it to all my friends after they have babies and you can just see the confidence they feel after taking it, which is so nice of you to just give that out to your friends. That's really sweet. I truly, truly believe in it. I think you're a sweetheart. Nutrafol's hair growth supplements are peer reviewed NSF certified for sport and clinically tested to measure improvements in growth, quality and strength. See thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with Nutrafol. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you go to Nutrafol.com and enter promo code UNPLANNEDPOD. Find out why Nutrafol is the best-selling hair growth supplement brand at Nutrafol.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L.com, promo code UNPLANNEDPOD. That's Nutrafol.com, promo code UNPLANNEDPOD. Have you ever seen someone die? That was a really weird question. You talk about death a lot, which I think is cool. Like, it's a scary topic. But, like, dude, it was super late at night. I was actually listening to your book on Audible. And I, like, had this random thought pop into my head of I kind of want to, like, experience seeing, like, I don't know if it's, like, an old person or a family friend or what. But, like, I want to experience one's final moments. Like, as weird as that is. Because I feel like it would give so much perspective. and I don't know. I hope that I'm not alone when I die one day. That'd be really sad to be like literally by yourself in a hospital room. No one's there and you're like, all right, peace out world. Like, I don't know. Have you ever, is that something that you want to experience or have experienced? I think it's a thing that Matt Howard does. You talk about death a lot, right? I do talk about death a lot. I think it's the first line in the trailer for the movie. Yes. It says, you're going to die. Yes. what it's been so i think one of the things that is maybe a little bit unique in my life i think i was exposed to a lot of death um inadvertently like at a young age so um i lost all my grandparents by the time i was 14 or 15 i had two classmates die in high school i had one of my closest friends die first year of college. And that one, I was there by the time I was 20. I'd basically been around or had like five or six people. I like really cared about. Holy cow. Who had died, which, you know, when you're young, you like, you don't realize these things are not normal. Um, but it, I think it did make me think about this a lot uh a lot more especially a lot more than most young people I think also part of what drew me to Buddhism is that Buddhism is very they talk very bluntly about death quite a bit Like there is no afterlife in Buddhism. So, you know, it is, it's, in Buddhism, life is just an illusion. And actually death is like kind of like a cessation of the illusion, right? And in Buddhism, they say that meditation is you are practicing how to die by relinquishing all of your thoughts and all of your attachments. Whoa. I've never heard that before. Yeah. It's pretty intense. And it's crazy, too. So the Buddhist center that I studied at when I was in college, one of my meditation teachers, her specialty, I forget what it's called, but there's like a certain name for it. Um, but her specialty is like, she like helps people die. So she would go to hospitals and like offer her services, like, you know, of like basically go to the, whatever the part of the hospital is where people are, where people are dying. And she would go from patient to patient and essentially offer services, say like, Hey, I specialize, like, you know, I can help you peacefully go and like be at peace with it. And there are all sorts of like meditations and chants and stuff that she would do with people, you know, like thought exercises to like help them relinquish, like let go and like be okay with it. So it's like hardcore. Yeah. No, that's scary. You know, like my brain right now is like fighting between like thinking intellectually about this and then like the deep fear that I think I and probably so many other people have of like death is a really freaking scary thing. Yeah. I mean, she was hardcore. I remember when she told me about it, I was like, I have so much respect for you. Holy crap. Like anybody who can do that. And like, I mean, it's just like a voluntary service, right? Like, you know, she'd just go to the hospital on a Wednesday night and be like, all right, who's dying? Let me go hold her hand. She would volunteer to do that? Yeah. It's a sacred thing in like Buddhist theology, like that passing from this life. It's like a very special moment. moment and and obviously it's scary and like everybody recognizes that it's really scary and so there's you know in in that that world um there's all a lot of value and importance in just like helping people through the process that got like really deep thank you for sharing that so maybe we maybe we like don't talk about marriage yeah can we can we talk about marriage You're a married guy. You love death and marriage. You seem to love being married. Speaking of death. Let's rewind a little bit. I was chatting to some people on your team and they seem to think that like you have a really happy, healthy marriage. This is a really high compliment. You should know this. They were like saying that you and your wife have like one of the sweetest marriages that they've witnessed. That's cute. So that's a really high compliment. and I saw on one of your most popular reels is about marriage being a long conversation like finding a good partner can you talk about that a little bit there's a great quote from Nietzsche who ironically was never married are many philosophers married? a lot of them were not I kind of feel like they were they're in their thoughts a lot does that make being married hard because you're like a philosopher and yeah I don't know I know why you're doing this You're probably hard to be around. If you're that smart and that philosophical, just like analyzing everything all the time, I could see how you'd be annoying to be around. But yeah, no, Nietzsche has this amazing quote where he said that marriage is a long conversation. So be sure that you're marrying somebody you want to. You'll never get tired of talking to. And I think there's a lot of wisdom in that because it's pretty much like almost anything you want or like or desire in a partner, it's probably temporary to some extent, right? It's like everything comes and goes. Um, people are, there's going to be good times. There's going to be bad times. There's going to be hard times. There's going to be easy times. There's going to be like times where things are going super well for your partner and bad for you. And times that things are going great for you and bad for your partner, there's going to be health problems, psychological problems uh aging problems family problems social problems like all this stuff is going to happen and what i take his quote to mean is just that like as long as you inherently in love the communication you have with each other then nothing else matters you can kind of ride the wave of anything that happens, anything that comes and goes. And it's, it's really, I think at the core of like a good marriage is, is a really, really strong friendship, just the genuine satisfaction of, of being together and just talking to each other. Cause it's, it's, as long as you have that communication, like everything else is kind of figureoutable. I think. I think on one of your clips, you mentioned dating apps and how like a lot of them are maybe counterproductive to like what people want to do because it's like these filters that you're putting on aren't long term going to suit you when it comes to like finding that like lifelong friendship that marriage requires. And did you meet your wife on a dating app? Or how did you? Did it still work? It's really funny because we met. So we met in 2012. of Tinder came out like six months later. Okay. And it was funny because when Tinder came out, like it was such an exciting thing. Like it had never existed before, right? So it's like, it was just this new novel thing and all of our friends were using it and they're like, oh my God, this is crazy. I'm getting so many dates. And I remember when my wife and I were dating and we kind of joked, we're like, do you want to take like a month break so we can like try this Tinder thing? We used to joke about it. And now, I mean, within a few years, we're like, oh my God, thank God we met before the apps were around because it's just, it's so hard out there now. And I think they've actually been very counterproductive. And I think the reason why is I don't think people actually have an accurate sense of what is gonna make them happy with a partner. In fact, I know people don't have an accurate sense. And I also, like, there's research that backs this up. Like, if you actually take people's criteria for what they want in a partner and give it to them, like, they're not, it's not predictive at all of like how much you actually gel with the person or how attracted you end up being to the person. We don't know our own types. We don't, we really don't because so much of it is happening unconsciously. It's happening at an emotional level. And so much of it is just like, it's very intangible. It's like a chemistry that you can't really describe. You just feel it when it's there. And I just know this too from my own experience. Like, I don't know about when you guys met, but like there are multiple girls that I dated or like girlfriends that I had that when I first met them, I was just like, eh. you know but then it's like you you spend more time with them you hang out with them and you're like oh she's kind of cute and like and then you see her again you're like okay yeah no that's i'm actually i'm kind of into her right and it like it like grows and evolves over time like when i think about my girlfriend from from college like i never would have picked her on a dating app we had a great two three year relationship she was like hugely impactful all my life never would have picked her on a dating app and it's funny too because when when my wife and I met, she initially shot me down. There's something to that I feel like. There really is. There really is. Interesting. Well, I thought you should know that compliment from your team. That is very nice of them. Because, you know, they see you guys probably a lot. And not necessarily in romantic environments and work. So that's really sweet. My wife's awesome. And yeah. Feel very good about my marriage. What's been something about marriage that you've learned recently or something that kind of surprised you? It's a good question. You know, marriage has this reputation that things get dull and repetitive. And I think when we were younger or maybe when we had just gotten married, we were a little bit worried about that. We're like, no, we're never. Like, we're going to keep things fun and interesting. We're going to do cool things together and all this. And it's funny because, like, now we're in our 40s and it has gotten kind of dull and repetitive. But we're still happy. Like that's the funny thing is she and I talk sometimes. We're like we've become kind of boring, but like we're just as happy as we always were. That's really sweet. And in a way it's even better, right? Because it's like, okay, if I can still be happy, like literally just sitting on the couch all day with her, reading a book, like awesome. Who needs to go to Mexico or like go to a concert or whatever? You talked about this, but like love versus romance. I feel like there's like an application here too. Yeah. And it's interesting too, this came up when we were doing our podcast episode on happiness. I thought it was really interesting that happiness is very cultural. Like it's different cultures have kind of a different perspective or definition of it. And one of the things that came up was that generally speaking, Western cultures associate happiness with excitement and like peak experiences. You know, if you if you kind of ask an American or a European, like, what's a really happy moment from the last year, they're probably going to say something like, oh, I went to this amazing show or Disney. Yeah. Yeah. I went to Disney World or I, you know, my best friend surprised me with, you know, a party or whatever. In Eastern cultures, it's they associate happiness with peace and calm. So if you ask somebody from China or Japan, what is the happiest moment recently? It's probably going to be like, oh, I woke up on a Saturday morning and knitted for four hours. And it was beautiful outside. It's something serene and calm. And I feel like there's something to that with romance as well. I think the Western notion of romance is very dramatic and it's very exciting. so much passion and all this stuff but like my experience with my wife is that actually like real deep love is it's peaceful it's just and it's kind of dull like it's it's very it's simple it's very very simple like on the people if people could see us from the outside they'd be like wow those those two are boring but like when on the inside like we're just we're just happy it's just it's very satisfying. I like togetherness. How do you avoid the trap of keeping score in your marriage? The scorecard. Yeah. One of the, one of the, something I've been writing about for a long time. The scorecard in any relationship is just death. Like I, a simple way to put it is that like, if you, if you're keeping score in a relationship, you're both going to lose, right? Like you just have to understand that. the score doesn't matter. And over a long enough period of time, it's, it's going to even out. Right. And there's going to be days and months and years where like one of you is not showing up as well as the other. And, and it doesn't matter. Like, cause there's going to be another time where the other person is not showing up for a day or month or a year. So it's, it's really like that, that isn't the say like, let yourself be taken advantage of. It just means like, don't hold on to things. Don't, don't like, don't use things as a, as a way to bludgeon your partner. Right. It's like, if he screwed up last month, like don't hold that over him when the next argument happens or vice versa. As soon as you start introducing a power dynamic into a relationship like that, like it is, it is the opposite of intimacy. Like intimacy in many ways is just, it's the opposite of a power struggle. Yeah. Cause it's almost like you're viewing yourself as like two individuals whereas like if you're not keeping score it's like us as a unit accomplish this versus like I did this and you did this yeah you can either play on the same team or play against each other so it's always make sure you're on I have a friend of mine she described it as like make sure you're on the same side of the net right so it's like you can play tennis as doubles or you can play tennis against each other like make sure you're on the same side of the net when you're fighting. Before you got married did you guys date for a certain amount of years or how long did you wait to, I don't know if you like waited to move in together until you got married. Like how did you navigate all of that? We dated for three and a half years. Well, no, four years. No, four and a half years. I think I proposed to her after three and a half. Okay. We met, so she's Brazilian. I met her in Brazil. That's so dope. And it, it's been a few months there. We dated. I left. We kept in touch. She visited me. I went and visited her. And then about six months later, I was like, oh, my God, I think I need to move to Brazil. Did you move to Brazil? I did move to Brazil. No way. Yeah. So I lived there for two years. She moved in probably about after a year, year and a half. So the big thing was we wanted to travel the world together. like back then I was I don't know you know my business was online so I was like it was pretty I was pretty flexible I could like go live in different places and travel quite a bit so that's kind of what made it possible nice um but it was also clear like I couldn't stay there forever visas expire and all sorts of stuff and and also I didn't want to live in Brazil forever so we kind of agreed that we would we would travel together at a certain point she would take a sabbatical from her job and we would do like a little round the world trip. Um, and she was very practical and smart. And she was like, you know, if we're going to travel the world together, we should probably live together first before we travel. And I was like, Oh yeah, it's actually really smart. Um, so we, the second year that I was in Brazil, we, she moved in and honestly, like it was, it was pretty seamless. It wasn't, it wasn't a huge deal. Honestly, the, the, the big thing for me personally like i had a huge hang up about proposing i was like super nervous about it and had a lot of resistance and anxiety around it it wasn't entirely rational like it was i don't know i think it comes back to being too philosophical like i was just like analyzing it too much yeah and uh and it was funny because we had been together for almost four years she definitely wanted to get married and it was like dropping lots of hints and uh and my parents also want like they were like dude when are you gonna put a fucking ring on it and and i was just agonizing i'm like oh i don't know if it's she like how do i know and is she really the one and all this stuff i remember i was talking to my my dad and my stepmom one night and they were kind of getting on my case about not proposing and uh and i said exactly that i'm like you know i i love her everything's great we're happy together but like how do i know i'm gonna want to be with her for the rest of my life and my stepmom just like looked at me like i was just the biggest idiot she had ever seen in her life and she was like mark manson i've been with your dad for 27 years i still don't know if i want to be with him for the rest of my life she's like just buy the ring it's the intention like stop being an idiot i was like okay yeah that's actually there's a lot of wisdom there's a lot of wisdom that's awesome you have just launched an app so to back up and kind of set context for this. I was supposed to write another book this year and I was going to, and what I noticed starting last year is like everybody in my life was like going to chat GPT to like get advice and ask life questions. I was like, Oh, that's really interesting. Like, let me play around with it. And so I started messing with it and like, it's okay. Like sometimes it does well, but like, as you guys probably know, the problem with chat GPT is that it just kisses your ass all the time. It's like, you could say anything to it and it's like, Oh, that's brilliant. Oh my God. That's amazing. What a great question. You know, I could go to it and I'm like, Hey, I'm, I'm the queen of France. Like, how do I rule my kingdom? And it's like, Oh, look at you. Good for you. Let's talk about your kingdom. There's no like tattling to reality. And I think when it comes to actually pushing yourself and learning and growing, you need people who are going to call you out, who are going to like point out like, Hey, like that might be a bad assumption. Or have you thought about it this way? Or have you noticed that you say this, but your behavior is not matching that. What's up with that, right? Like you need somebody to kind of compassionately push you and challenge you. I kind of became like obsessed with this problem and I eventually met my co-founder who's built a number of AI companies and talked to him about it. And we're like, yeah, this needs to exist because it's like literally hundreds of millions of people are going to ChatGPT. They're asking for life advice. They're probably not getting great life advice, right? So it's like, if people are gonna do this, there should be something on the market that is actually designed for this use case. Yeah. And so that's why we created the app. It's called Purpose. It has a free trial and the onboarding assessment, it like basically gives you like a personality report. My goal with it is that it like reads your soul in like five minutes and it's pretty spooky. Gotten tons of emails from people that are like, it's crazy how fast it pointed this out to me. It's like totally saw through all of my BS and pinpointed what my issue is like within minutes. So it is, I think AI when it's leveraged really well can be extremely powerful. And that's been the goal. And basically the goal is to just have that tool available for as many people as possible. That's really cool. Yeah. I'm excited to see how it like changes over the years. I mean, yeah, I've even, even just using like a non-niche AI like that, it's already been helpful for me. So I'm excited to try out Purpose and kind of see what it like discovery. Like have it read my soul. Did Disappointment Panda have anything to do with the Purpose app? It's definitely, his spirit is definitely in it. It's funny too because some of my fans have like messaged me and they're like, oh, this is like Disappointment Panda. It's funny. It can be a little harsh sometimes, but it's, I do think it is. Ultimately, the goal of it is to tell you the things that you need to hear, but don't necessarily want to hear and point out some gaps and blind spots in each of us because we all have them. I love it. I love it. Well, Mark, thank you so much for your time. Everyone go check out Mark's new app, Purpose. I think it's available now, right? It's available now, purpose.app. And then I'm everywhere. So Solve podcast episodes every week. And then we have, or almost every week. And then go markmanson.net, got newsletter. I'm on everywhere. Good for you, man. That's awesome. Well, clearly your work is impacting so many people. Clearly it's meaningful to millions of people out there. So thank you for what you're doing. And this was a great conversation. Yeah, thanks for sitting down with us. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Mark.