Charlamagne Tha God On Truth, Accountability & Talking To Complicated People

This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. Soild. Thanks for watching guys. Today's episode is brought to you by Boost Mobile. Today's guest is the co-host of the infamous Breakfast Club, one of the most influential and longest running radio shows in hip-hop and pop culture history. He's the founder of the Black Effect Podcast Network, the owner of Black Privilege Publishing, a New York Times best-selling author, an advocate for mental health. He's helped shift culture by telling the truth out loud. He's a father, a husband, a friend. Welcome, Shalimane. God. Angie Martinez. Angie Martinez. In real life podcast, what's happening? Happy to be here. I'll be hearing that sometime and I'll be like, who the fuck is she talking about? You know what I'm saying? Like, who is that? What do you mean? Like, when I just hear all that stuff, I'm like, who is that person? Stop. Sometimes I do. You don't have great pride in what you've accomplished. And yes, absolutely. You don't feel connected to it deeply. Like, connected to it deeply. It was so interesting when I was home for Thanksgiving and I was staying at my mom's house and I was staying in the room that I grew up in. That's the moments that those things hit you because you think about, oh, I was in here all these years praying to be in these moments like this. So when you are in the midst of your answer and prayers, yes, that's when it hits you. What were you praying for in that room? Just to be, you know what's so funny? I tell the story all the time, but when I first started doing radio, I used to always say, I want to be a super-jocke. Like, I don't want to be just a local jock doing time in temperature and whatever market I was like, and I used to always say, if I want to do it, I want to do it on the level of the time joiners, the Angie Martinez, the Wendy Williams, the Howard Sterns. Like, my mind set even back then. So that was like, literally what I was dreaming about. When you were a kid, you weren't thinking about radio, right? Oh, as a kid, I was, I guess when I said the answered prayers, I do think from that time I was like 19 to now, you know what I mean? Because I was just praying to stay out of jail when I was a young, young kid, I was hoping that my mom didn't come home and realize that I was, you know, sitting at home because I was suspended and didn't tell them. Like, that's the type of stuff I was praying for back then. And then at some point, radio can't happen. In 1998. 1998, young shawl man on a radio. 1998, that's when I started off as an intern. So I got an air like 1999, but I started off as an intern in 1998. You know, your evolution is wildly inspiring to people, I think, not just a radio, but just cross the board. And even as a father, I mean, as a husband, as a man, you've been very honest in the books, it's up in this funny because you come up in the pod a lot when I had Cardi here. I saw Cardi. You saw Cardi? You saw Cardi too? Oh, you came up in both those episodes. That's right, because Cardi went through what she went through and she had a very strong theory about when you don't treat people well, even a spouse or even a girl you're stringing along like that karma comes back to you. And then we were talking about your theory about becoming this better husband and how your life flourished after that. Absolutely. And it's so crazy, right? Like, I've always told these stories and for whatever reason people act like this was yesterday. It's like, no, bro, I've been cleaning for like nine years out here in the streets. Like, no, not at all. But when you're telling the story back then, you weren't telling the story back then. You were telling the story in the past few years, probably. Yeah, probably in the past few years, because I had to make sure I really was what I said I was. You know what I'm saying? Like, when you make that commitment though, like I always talk about the color purple and, you know, we're silly pointed at fingers and ain't no good going to come to you and tell you do right by me. That is real. And so what happens when you actually do right by the woman you love? What happens when you actually do right? You know, by your wife. For me, my life has done nothing but go up, up, up, up, up. So I always say to myself, like, why would I ever go backwards? Especially when I continue to see men make those same rookie mistakes, losing everything. Like, you see, it would just happen to the head coach at the University of Michigan, like 39 years old, married with kids, you know, playing around on the side. And like now his whole shit is fucked up. It's like, why would I make those mistakes when I'm seeing what's happening to other people? And even before that, like, I saw what was happening to like, to my pops and my uncles and my pops would always tell me the worst thing that he ever did was do, you know, wrong by my mother, you know, even though he ended up, you know, getting remired, but he just, that's just, that's a whole, that, you know, then his life that he just regrets, you know, even to his day. Did you know that at the time, or did you know that after you had changed your life and saw the, you know, the effect of it? Or did you make that decision with the intention of like, my life will be better if I do right by her? Both. Because like, you know, it's like when you did, I got deal with anxiety, right? So it's just like why add extra stress to your life that you don't need. And plus you just feel fake, you feel phony. Like you, you, you literally laying down with the person you claim to love, this person that you got a whole life with, with you lying to that person. Yeah. Like I'm not one of them. Yeah, I don't believe in that whole, keep it, you know, real with your homies, but then, you know, lie to the woman that you claim to love and you really made vows in front of God. Like to me, that's just fake. I can't live my life in that way. I don't like to talk behind people's back. If I said something behind your back, eventually I got to stay into your face. All right. I've already said it to your face. So now I'm talking about you behind your back. I can't live my life like that. So it's just like laying down with a person, like living a whole life with a person, but you're actually living a whole lie with a person. No, that's not the way I want to, I want to move. I'll take care of you. It's funny that you say you waited to say that because one of the things I always wondered when I would hear you tell that story is, you know, because change doesn't happen in one second, you know, and sometimes behaviors take a little while to kind of break. And I wonder if any of that stuff ever still showed up for you, the temptation, the bad habits, the, no, because it's literally like, it's like changing your diet, like literally like changing your lifestyle, you know, when you start working out and you start eating clean, it's like, you don't even really want the junk that you used to eat anymore. Like, and if you even do try to indulge in it a little bit, then you'll probably old D and go crazy. So it's like, no, just leave it alone. I don't need it at all in any way, shape or form. Really? So no old behaviors, even just feelings, like no old behaviors. Yeah, feelings. I mean, you feel meaning like you might see somebody and be like, oh, that person is attractive, but you know what I mean? No, no, not even other women. Just like you would have to change a lot about yourself to make that bigger shift in your life, right? I think, I don't know, I think a lot of it, not all the time. I'm sure sometimes change happens with an idea. I'm always going to call it turkey type of person. Oh, cold turkey. Like literally, I've always been a stop. There's no, you know, doing a little bit of the wrong thing. I've always been like a stop person, like just, it's over. It's done. Leave it alone. I'm not looking back. And I think that's one of my, one of the things I, I, I, I think God for it, that he gave me that type of mind that I can easily just be like, stop. Very good. Yeah. And then it's also a little, I don't know what the word would be, but I'm also like that with people, which I don't know if that's good or not. Just cut people off. Oh, in a heartbeat. You know what I mean? You don't have to, don't worry. It don't matter how long we know each other, I might still have love for you. But if you're doing anything that's detrimental to me or detrimental to what I got going on, I feel like, you know, didn't be wrong. And anyway, it's like God bless. I wish you the best, but I'm on to the next. Wow. What about vices? Never had any vices or anything like that that you had to wean off of anything? Um, you know, like a cocaine. I'm bullshit. I don't know. It's like, why have I not heard about this journey? It's a brand new journey. What a bite. We are discovering the cocaine. You know, you know, I think people please can be a vice. Okay. I think people please can be a vice. You know what I mean? Doing things for people just because you just because you don't want them to feel a like it. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. You don't give me people please or vibes at all. Oh, no, no, I was a big people. When? That came when I can tell you exactly where it started from. Okay. Not to get dark, but when I was eight years old, I used to get, you know, molested by a woman that used to be in our family. And when I made her stop, she's always called me ugly, right? And you know, tell me I got a big nose and all this type of shit. And so I would still let her do it just to, you know, feel like you are an ugly. Yes. So she wouldn't call me that. And so that led to me being a people pleaser and my adulthood, which is, you know, it's basically, you know, letting people, I want to say kind of run over you, but letting them get over on you just because you would rather avoid, you know, them having something negative to say about it. That's so interesting. It's not a personality trait I would have imagined. Because you seem so free to say what you want. And, you know, your confrontational when needed. I love confrontational. Yes. Well, I don't know. He always told me that the fastest way between two points is a straight line. And my dad was a person who he did not like the bullshit, even though he might have been one of the number one bullshit is out there, at least at least to my mom. He got the nerve. He's not like it. But I always saw him just confront things head on, right? Like, even when I used to watch him and like my mom arguing stuff, it was like very direct arguments, right? And so I just always felt like I would rather just talk to you face to face. I never understood the whole, you know, you got a problem with somebody, but you're telling everybody what the person. Yeah. Like things don't have to be violent. Like, you can just get to it. Just get to it. Yeah. I always felt like you could just smooth things over with a conversation. No matter how he did the conversation got, or even if you know when you were young, y'all did have a little confuffle and threw a little bit of blows. He would just get back to being friends in moments. That's it. I always felt like that. So I've never had a problem with the confrontation at all. But to keep the peace a lot of times, it's like, all right, let that person, you know, get there way, even if it's, you know, detrimental to me, but not anymore. You ever notice how everything keeps going up? I mean, rent is going up. Streaming services are going up, even like your favorite barito place. All of a sudden, I want to charge you for salsa. You're going to the supermarket. They want to charge you extra for the bag. It's kind of crazy out here. The good thing is with boost mobile, you and your phone build do not have to play that game. You don't have to play the, will this go up soon game? Why? Because boost mobile has an unlimited talk, text, and data plan at a price that will never go up. In fact, it's the same price you'll pay for life. So switching out to unlimited wireless at a price that will never go up only at boost mobile. After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. This will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the boost mobile unlimited plan. How do you break a habit of people pleasing? Is it a slow? It's not a cold turkey thing, right? You have to actually work on that. You just got to make sure that the thing you're doing, you know, for somebody else is because you genuinely want to do them. You genuinely want to help. And you're not really losing anything in the process. I guess not even exchange, right? Like if I do something for you, but then I feel like depleted? Exactly. You know what I mean? That's not an even exchange of energy. Like, I'm going to pour in you, you're going to pour back into me in some way, shape before me. But I don't even mean like, you know, I might provide you an opportunity. I'm just like being around good people. Yeah. Like, you know, you just like being around good energy. Sometimes that person that makes you laugh or that person, you know, you can have a healthy debate with that person that makes you smile for no reason. That person you like to talk to on the phone for no reason. To me, those are even exchanges of energy. But if I do, you know, something for you because you want it done and I feel empty after the fact and, you know, you going on about your date, that's not a fair exchange at all. That is people pleasing. That is 100% people pleasing. Got it. And I learned that in therapy, by the way. I love that. I want to learn all about all the things you learned in therapy. I want you to teach us all the things today, Charlotte. It's so funny because I never thought of myself, you know, from New York, I'm from the culture. I'm like, I never thought of myself as a people pleaser until like recently big, this big age. Really? And that fully made you really love that. Being feeling depleted by certain situations and just testing the waters of like, let me, do I want to do that? I don't. So I'm not going to and then consciously checking myself to not feel bad about it. But it's like a, that's why I say I will always curious about people's process because sometimes change doesn't happen cold turkey like that. I'm not going to shoot on my wife anymore and you don't forever. Those habits, things, the things that shape us, it takes a little while to kind of like unravel that. Well, that's why you don't practice bad habits. And I think that you know, one thing I've learned, the old that I've gotten, I've definitely probably done more unlearning than learning. Like that's the crazy thing about like when you first start going to therapy, like when I first started going to therapy in 2016, by 2018, I probably was the most confused I had ever been in my life. Too much information. Not even too much information is everything I thought I knew. I realized I didn't know, right? As much as I thought I did. And I realized that a lot of the things that I was using for survival weren't going to allow me to get to that next level of life that I wanted to get to, whether personally, professionally, whatever it was. I knew I had to let so many things go. And that's a scary process too, right? Because I think a lot of times people hold on to a lot of those habits because it's literally what they got in their toolbox. But those are the safe, comfortable things that they can go to and always use when they, you know, I just going through life. But when you realize like that stuff in that toolbox, man, those keys not going to unlock these new doors, I'm trying to get to that's a scary, that's a scary place to be at, especially when you would without how old I was at 36, 37 years old. That's when you started doing therapy? Yeah, I started going to therapy in 2016. Yep. So I was like 37, 38. Because I remember when I turned 40, I just was, I just bought, like, I mean, just crying like a baby. I was drunk too, but I was just crying like a baby when I turned 40. And it just felt, but it felt like a release. Like I already literally remembered it that night. It was like I was in Angola, like my favorite island. And I was just, my wife had made this, she had got this video made for me. It was like all my friends, like, you know, wishing me a happy birthday. And I just cried like a baby. What was it that was happening? Um, I don't know. It's like sometimes when you turn certain ages, like if you really are doing this life thing correctly, you can feel those new dimensions open up. You can feel those new portals of life open up. And you know, 2016, October 2016, as when I was like, I'm not, she knew my wife and me more. I'm going to, you know, really do the righteous thing. I'm going to start going to therapy, doing the work on myself. And so 2018, I was like, maybe what a year and a half, two years into that, right? And it kind of just hit me like, yeah, that old, I'm not that person anymore. Like to, it was like one of those things with God was showing me. If you, if you really want to, you know, be what I have destined you to be, keep doing what you're doing. And it kind of just hit me, like just watching everybody with me happy one day. Absolutely. Absolutely. Gratitude, tears of joy. Yeah, all of it. And it really just felt like a release. And I was like, you know what? I'm 40 now, my act like. I love that. I'm grown-ass, man. Do you have any like, I don't know if it feels like the before or after, right? Of Charlemagne. Before that moment and time and then after, it kind of is like two different people. Do you ever look back at things you did back then with guilt or remorse or? Not guilt or remorse. I think you do cringe sometimes, you know what I mean? Because like all, everything we do has been documented, you know, especially in this on-air business, right? But so sometimes you do look at things and you cringe, but it's only because like my kids have, like, I got a 17 year old, a 10 year old, a 7 year old, a 4 year old, and they asking questions. You know? Of course. So it's like sometimes, but you know, I've learned to accept every version of myself, every single version of myself was the version that I needed to be in that moment. Has there been any apologizing or any need, no need to like, I don't know? All the time. I don't know why the thing that comes up when I ask you that question, when you talk about on-air, at first I was talking about in your personal life, you have wife and stuff, but like even on-air, when you see that clip of like little mama crying in the chair, like does that do something to you or do not, or a moment like that, where maybe you heard somebody's feelings or maybe you emotionally said something that, but you can't see anything about the little mama situation. That's the thing about that. Because that always comes, people act like that was yesterday. Like look at my face, look at how good my skin looks now, my skin was terrible back then. When I think about the highlight reel, of moments of like shocking, Charlemagne moments, you know, it's Birdman, it's little mama. Yes, but even little mama says she wasn't crying at me. She was crying because we bought up, well, her mother who had passed away, God bless the dead, had came up. So in that moment, that's what brought the tears on. She said that herself. But bad rap. But also the night before when they asked little mama to come on, you was like, you know Charlemagne got jokes, little mama's like, I'm from Harlem, I got jokes too. So I thought we was going to have a nice little back and forth, which we did. If you go back and watch it in full, she was throwing some jokes. Mine was just a little better at the time. That's all I can tell you. That's the hall it was, but I have, but nothing but much respect for little mama. You know, little mama's dad ran down on him because of that shit. No. He ran down on me outside. So he ran down. He ran down. He ran, he caught in with the ham and everything like, no, yeah. If you told that story before, I vaguely remember that. I've got about that part. Yikes. So you definitely don't want to cause those kind of issues, those kind of problems. You know what I'm saying? But is there any been, you don't even have to say what they are, but had there been moments where you see where you're like, oh, absolutely. Especially when I used to work with Wendy. And Wendy was the one because I got with Wendy, I was really compromised in my selfful position. Like I was really the pit bull. Like purposely that was my job. That was a job. And she would be like, get, get them. I want you to get that person, you know what I mean? But she wasn't enough. She wasn't doing enough. Well, she was trying to make the transition. Oh, okay. That's what she was trying to make the transition to television. Oh, she was trying to do good, good, good. Good. Absolutely. And it was just, it would be sometimes where like my conscience would be like, why? Like, and when I always remember as Kelly Rowland, like she was like, get up. And I'm like, Kelly Rowland? Like, why? Like, what? What did Kelly Rowland do? What did you do? I think I came up with this angle like we both know how I feel to be side kicks. So I'm a sidekick to Wendy. She's a sidekick to Beyonce. This is great, stupid disrespect for no reason. And I remember when Kelly wanted to do breakfast club, Lala hit me like, you know, you know, Kelly wants to do breakfast club. But she was like when she met you with Wendy, it was bullshit basically, but so immediately I apologize to her when before she even walked into the studio. And we got on air. And I wrote about that story in my book. I always tell people don't compromise yourself for a position. Like what the hell without attacking Kelly Rowland for? Like just because I was like the nicest. Don't bother. No, she's like, she's like the purest little soul. You see what I'm saying in the verse. And I still don't even know what the issue was. Was she gracious to your apology? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I love Kelly. Me and Kelly, like, we super locked in that. Yeah, she's the person. Her turn all of it. Like, we super locked. Okay, guys, holiday season is upon us. I mean, it is right here. You do not have a lot of time. And I was telling you last episode about how I was ordering stuff for the holidays. Not just gifts. You can get gifts, all the gifts on Wayfair, which make it very easy. But I was also ordering stuff to make my house just more family friendly, just to have more space, extra air mattress, the foam pad that goes up, you know, have a pullout couch and the mattress on the pullout couch is not that great. So I got like a foam mattress that goes on the top and now it's super comfortable and great. Comfortors, some extra sheets. I mean, my house is ready for guests. And super easy. Everything came really fast. Wayfair is really good at delivering quickly. So I got that taken care of. And then I got a couple of little knickknacks just to judge up the house to make it festive. I haven't been that festive this year. So getting a few things to kind of make it easy actually helped. And I was like, okay, maybe I do have a little Christmas spirit. A little tree with these lights that you don't have to light it comes already lit. Just some decorations from the house for the house and just to judge up the home. And you can get all kinds of last minute hosting essentials, especially if you're hosting a dinner or an event at your house, all of it in one place. The stuff to host, the stuff for people to stay over and not have to sleep on the floor or an uncomfortable mattress and gifts for your loved ones. So you can get it all and all the decor and all the things and celebrate the holidays for way less. Go to wayfair.com. That is w a y f a I r right now to shop all things home. That's wayfair.com every style every home wayfair. Not Kelly rolling. I forgot you did tell that story. You've told every story. I tried to try to I try to be an open book and just tell people because I want people to learn from my mistakes. You know, I want I want this next next generation to know they don't have to do that. Like I'm watching this whole new wave of whatever I don't know if you call them shock jocks and very ridiculous. I'm like, well, you like that. Well, I saw a clip today of somebody. I don't know who they were. They were like, I don't know blog or interview. I saw it. It was just gross. I just was like, I feel bad for them. You know, it's almost like I feel bad for them, but I also feel gross about, I don't know, I feel bad for them because I know how hurt they really are on the inside because you have to be a really hurt person to talk about certain individuals the way that you talk about them. Like it's one thing to have an opinion, have some critique with these people be like really vicious evil nasty. And I tell them like the other story I tell them is like, you know, sitting with Wendy earlier this year and Wendy literally said to us at the table, I think I'm in the position I'm in because of how I used to talk about people. And I was glad that Lauren Leroso was with me at the time to hear that. I know when you said that to me, you told me this and I couldn't believe that she said that. She absolutely said that. And I was like, what do you mean? Like calmness. You was like, well, you know, God, I know her when you mentioned God ever in my life. Does she know that you've shared this story? I don't know. What? I have no idea. Have you know spoken of Wendy? I haven't spoken. She called me on my birthday over the summer. I haven't spoken her since then. Oh, because you guys were talking pretty frequently. I thought, yeah. She called me on my birthday. I haven't spoken her since then. Do you believe some of that? Like about the karma about like, yeah. Absolutely. I don't know. You know, the thing about karma karma is funny, right? Because I've seen some really bad things happen to people that I thought was really good people. And I still believe that they're good people. So I don't believe in karma like, like only bad things happen to bad people. Yeah. I do something and then you get that, you know, type of equal opposite reaction back. I don't believe in it in that way. But I do believe like, you know, you can't curate the energy around you. And I think sometimes, you know, if you put out, put out a lot, a lot of negative energy, a lot of bad energy. I think that you can find yourself wallowing in that and not even realizing it. How do you feel about forgiveness for that type of stuff? Like you said you cut people off fast, right? But like even in that moment, even the moment with Wendy and her saying, get up and you haven't apologized to Kelly and just learning from that. And she forgives you, right? Clearly. I don't know. Do you forgive yourself? Or do you forgive other people? Or do you just kind of cut people out? Like I would even imagine with Wendy that there had to be some type of, I don't know. It is, but you know, the thing with Wendy is like, like earlier this year, you know, we were helping her, right? Because she was in a bad situation. But then you know, you see something that reminds you of that old energy. And you're like, I don't really want that in my life. No level. Wish it the best. You know, glad we were able to, you know, connect her with certain people. And then when you see even how she might have treated certain people, you connected it with, you know, so it's just like, yeah, let me, like, you know, I wish it the best. Yeah. You know, want the best for her. But that was a season in my life. And I always say people come into your life for, you know, reason seasons. And you know, sometimes lifetimes, those lifetime ones are very rare. Yeah. But you know, you appreciate the seasons and you, you know, move on to the next one. And it was influential to you. Like it, it helped you. Absolutely. I mean, I, I wouldn't be, I probably wouldn't be in the position I'm in now. If it wasn't for that. And I don't even like to have those type of hypothetical conversations because the reality is I'm in the position I am because that was part of my journey. I was coming from South Carolina. I was in Columbia at the time. I think Columbia's market number 93. Jesus. To go from market number 93 to market number one being Wendy Williams. Coho's like, who gets, who gets that kind of look? Like that's some stuff you see in a movie. You know, you watch on a TV show and be like, oh, that's damn near impossible. You would have probably done anything she told you to do, right? Huh. Well, no. I was like, yo, I did do damn near anything she told me to do. Like, yes. Yeah. I was, I was her attack dog. Like, I, I don't get that. I was living with her, like living with them. Like they were giving me a place to stay. I wouldn't get paid. I think you paid for like a year and a half. But I do that, though. And that's why I always tell the next generation, recognize opportunity when it's not a paycheck attached to it because you can't put a price on that kind of opportunity. Like, it's like, yo, you want you up here to be her cause, but we can't pay you. All right. I'm out. You know, I got to take, I got to figure it out. Take that, take that first step even if you don't see the rest of the staircase. Mm-hmm. To go back to the thing about you, you changed your life and your wife. What do you think, why do you think she, um, hung in there with you? I have no idea. That goes back to what you're saying about the forgiveness. Like, you don't always have to forgive people. And if you do forgive them, you can still forgive them and move on and realize like, no, this person, that energy isn't for me. Like that's the blessing, right? The blessing is when somebody forgives you, but they decide to still be in your life in some way, shape or form. Like when somebody forgives you and they like, yeah, but that energy, I don't want that around me. That's the, that's when it's like, oh, man. But, you know, we've been together since we was kids. Like, you know, we've been, I think on top of everything else, we're actually friends. And so she knows me for real, for real. Like she knows my heart for real, for real. She knows who I am for real, for real. So she was able to say, okay, you made some mistakes, but let's see, the best apology has changed behavior. Plus we were, like, I mean, growing up together, it's not like that was the only person. You know what I mean? Like, she was in college, right? Every girl goes to college and goes through their whole phase and stuff like that. So it's just like, it works, it works both ways, you know? So that's just, but we only know your story. We know you were a bad husband at the beginning, because you self-proclaimed bad husband at the beginning. But you know, I was always a good boyfriend, right? But then it's like, man, honestly, it was just living this new hip hop radio lifestyle. It was a famous money. I remember talking to somebody one time and they told me that every superhero is going to try out their new superpowers, because it was like, you've never been that version of yourself. And the person I'm talking about is a superstar, right? It's so, like, you've never been this version of yourself. So you're going to try out your new superpowers. And I didn't understand what he meant. Oh, is it? It was actually Chris Rock. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember him saying, I remember him just saying that to me, he was like, every, that sounds like a Chris Rock, except Chris Rock was saying. He was like, every superhero is going to try out the new superpowers, because you've never been this version of yourself. And there's going to be a lot of things that come at you that never came at you before. And I remember, and I always think about that. And I always think about this quote from the Honorable Minister Lewis Farracon. Honorable Minister Lewis Farracon said, when you see men fall, don't laugh, learn, because the same things that tempted them on their way up that caused them to probably, you know, have these bad habits and vices are the same temptations that you are going to face as well. Like those are things that I constantly think about. Like you see great men fall, you know, and I'm going to laugh a little bit sometimes. You're definitely not laughing. And you know what it is. And you're going to call them donkey of the day. And rubbing another man's nut on your nipples is kind of funny. Right. That's pretty, that's kind of, that's pretty hysterical. But some a laugh a little bit, but I'm also going to learn from the situation. What have you learned from that situation? Oh my God. Man, I watched that documentary. I watched that, I watched that documentary on an amazing day. You watch all four parts of it. All four parts. I wasn't expecting to talk about this today, but we should talk about it. I rarely talk about it. I don't know why. I'm so conflicted about the whole. You lived it. I know, which, and I never had the best relationship with him. I would say that. People don't really know that. Okay. And so we've had these conversations privately. Yeah. Well, yes, about how you feel that darkness from him. Yes. I put it to where you telling him you felt the darkness from him. Absolutely. But I did feel that darkness, and we, we'd never had the best relationship. I tried sometimes just because of the proximity and because of our worlds, and, and you could not, not be inspired in terms of, uh, work ethic and what he's created, you know, there was another side. So I tried, whether the things you heard or things you felt, things you experienced, um, combination of it all, combination of it all. I just personally just never had, um, we just never had, we knew each other, but I just always kind of asked me to, I never wanted to go to the parties and never wanted to have a goal. I don't think I, I don't think I've ever been to a party. I could, I could totally be wrong. If somebody will pull up a picture of me at some party that was, as I don't remember, but I have no recollection. But I feel the same way too. Like I, I saw a person trying to try at one point. You did see that. Oh, yeah. There's a video. Um, I don't know where I said, but somebody took a video. This is the first revolt music conference. Um, you know, me and Andre were super cool. I love Andre, like, you know, God bless the day. And so I did the first revolt music conference because of Drake. And so we walked into the trailer and did he was sitting in there and this was right after Kim Paz. He was just like, super down. And I remember he just said to me, he goes, man, like all the conversations you'd be having by mental health and therapy and stuff because, you know, I realized I've never been happy. He said that to me, it's like I realized I've never been happy. Wow. I've never been happy. And so, you know, when I hear somebody doing that, and I also remember being at, um, I was at the Pada House one, one time. It was, it was the weekend of Bishop T.D. Jakes birthday party. And he had a party that night. And then the next day we all went to church and I live, you know, I love Pada House. I watched them online, you know, past the Torrey Roberts and Bishop T.D. Jakes and Sarah Jakes Roberts. And so we in the church and, you know, when I say he was, I don't know. What was going, what, what he was had going on. But he was going through it. I mean, holy ghost jumping up and down tears. And I just remember looking at him like, boy, he's going through it. Right. So clearly he was trying, right? So, you know, I give, I give everybody the, the opportunity to evolve, but that I'm not the universe. I'm not God. So it don't matter what I think. I mean, you still got to deal with whatever you was putting out there. Yeah. And clearly that's what's happening. Yeah. It's funny to even talk about it because I, I don't know. I just, like somebody asked me the other day if I would interview Puff if he came out. Would you? I'd have to think about it. It wouldn't be a, a younger me would say, of course, it's my job. Absolutely. Yes. Now I'd have to say, what kind of offering would that be to the world? Would it be worth it for me? Do I want to put myself in that noise? Can I do something really meaningful? You know, I'd have to ask myself some questions like that. It's not just a, yes, I'll do it. It's, because it'll be huge. I mean, I say no to huge things all the time. Well, that's what I love about you. I mean, you know, it's so funny. The Debbie Brown, who's a great friend of mine. That's what good sister. She literally said, she texted me like two days ago. I was like, yo, because she loves Tupac. Like I'm talking about, she's the person that buys it. Tupac tapes haunted me. She, exactly. She loves Tupac. She was like, yo, Angie really needs to put out the Tupac audio. Debbie Brown said that. Debbie Brown said that. Maybe it's time then. And I said to her, I said, well, you know, she never wanted to put it out. Because, you know, it's thought would be inflammatory, right? I know there's a rumor on the internet that Puff somehow paid me for those tapes. Like I, like I held those tapes for all those years so that Puff could pay me. Wow. It's absolutely there's zero truth to that. But that, but you're right. That's why I never did it. And then now I think, for what is the point now, there's nothing there that changes history or changes, but I know people are interested. So I think people want to break it down. It's like a logically because there's this. Let's do it. You want to do it with me. You want to do like a, oh, that'd be amazing. Let's do it. Because you know what it is. I think people, we realized Pock wasn't as crazy as people thought. And also he was young. He was very young. He hadn't gone through the, imagine Pock after therapy healed. When did he, that was a 24 or 25? Yes. 24. So his full frontal cortex wasn't even fully intelligent. This is what I'm saying. Imagine him going through how the other side of Charlotte made. Imagine the other side of Pock, what that would have been. Yeah. I would see then, then I look at the tapes and I go, well, now that has meaning. If I release it in a way where it actually has meaning and does something good for the world, I want to just put it out so people could talk shit about it and have it on the internet for first. What is the great question? Because you actually have gotten to meet all of these people that are mythical to us. Would Tupac have evolved? Yes. Like, Jay, I would hear him evolve like 50. Like Jay, but different. I see Tupac with having institutions, universities, programs, schools. Yeah, I see him like a, like, well, Nipsey didn't even get to become Nipsey. The Nipsey that he would have been. But in that kind of lane, I don't think he valued money from, and I'm not speaking as somebody who knew him the best. I had, you know, one amazing day with him and some small interactions other than that. But I've analyzed him just like everybody else has. But he knew you well enough to say I want to add you Martinez to come out. Well, he didn't know me at all. He used to listen to me when he was in jail. That's why. Got you. So of the people that he would be listening to, he'd say, wow, you, I respect you on the air. You never talked shit about me. You didn't say, I've never heard you say anything that was not true. And I thought if somebody who listened to me would be you, that's, that was literally what he said to me. And I was like, shit, in the middle of this fuck. But you know, it was the young me. I said, okay. You had to go do it. I had to go do it. But that's always been your super, super vital. What? Making people comfortable and being, being such a, a great listener. Like I, I always tell you that I'm like, yo, that's a skill I want. I want to skill. You have that skill. I think I've developed it now a little bit like, like, like actually making people comfortable. It's like, you know, I don't know if you ever seen that a, it's like this folk tale about the wind in the sun and the wind in the sun had a battle about, you know, who they could make. Take their jacket off. Right. And this guy, I don't know if this guy walking with a jacket on. And so the wind goes first and the wind is blowing all crazy trying to blow the guys jacket off with the guy grabbed the jacket tighter and he's holding on to it because it's the wind is blowing. But then the sun came out and the sun is all, you know, high in the sky and it's radiating its beams and it makes, making everything really hot. And the guy's like, oh, the guy takes his coat off. Next thing you know, the guy takes his shirt off. You know, by the end of the story, the guy's laying under the tree with like his boxes on, like just sunbathing basically. Right. And it's like, y'all rather be the sun. Like you've always been the sun. I think that's the like the nicest compliment ever. Thank you. It's the truth. Thank you, man. Would you interview Puff right now to go back to that question you asked me? I think we'd be doing them in the disservice. And the reason I say that is because he just still seemed like he's on the bulls shit. And I look at it like it's a few things that make me feel that way. When the Cassie accusations first came out, he denied them. And then the tape came out. So you can't deny that. And then when you look at the documentary, you see him still leaving China manipulate, you know, the media and people up until he's even about to be in jail. And you know, I don't know if it's true that he sent 50-dose flowers. But if you did that, it's like, you're still thinking about all the wrong things. Even watching the documentary, like he really cares about being Puff. Like being that character Puff, like having those traps. Even more so than accountability for what he did or going to jail. He just, I care about my image. And I think that if he comes out and he's still on that, we'd be doing a disservice by putting cameras all back in his face. That's so funny. You say that because I do operate in that way too. I think, because I'm always looking for the truth in somebody. Even if the truth is ugly, even if the truth is uncomfortable. I want to just get to know you and know why your truth is like that. But if I don't feel like somebody can do that, then why are we doing this? I agree 100%. You know what I'm saying? Then why? And that doesn't mean I won't talk to bad people or people who've been to bad things or people who sometimes are trying to still figure it out. I will, because I think there's learning in all of that. I think we can learn lessons from, it's funny. Oh, I should share this, but I just got a request for Russell Simmons to do the pod. Mm. I think he should do it out. You do? Yes, because I always say Russell has a very interesting story. And if Russell is ever allowed to really talk freely, right? Like the way he talks behind the scenes, I think it would bring a lot of clarity to that life started was living, what you said earlier about them being so young and having all that money and that power and that access to things. I think that could be a very teachable moment. And Russell is a person who's really willing to teach. Like Russell can tell you where he was wrong at. And Russell can tell you where. If that was the case, and that's absolutely something I don't want to do. But that was the, that was the, but that is the questioning that I asked myself when I get that message. It's like, will he be honest? Is there something to learn here? Is there accountability here? Because I don't want to sit across from somebody and I feel like you should be taking some accountability and they don't. That could be weird. And also I feel like I would have to be sensitive to other people's stories. Absolutely. It's a sensitive conversation, which I'd be willing to have if I felt like ultimately the world is a better place for the conversation. I guess that's the bottom line, right? I've always said that it needs to be a woman who interview somebody like Russell Simmons. And you'd be perfect because you, that was, you know, part of your area as well. For sure. And then just the fact that when you hear his story, if you ever told like the story, like just, I'm talking about everything from that whole era. It's very, it's very teachable moments that, you know, would be coming from him and not through somebody making a documentary about it, right? Right? And because I said, I guess I did, I was a teachable moment as well. But, you know, you don't know what salacious and what's not. But his story from his mouth, I think a lot of people could learn from that. Yeah, I'm leaning towards yes on that. Remember that reason for those reasons alone. But, you know, it's complicated. The world we're in is complicated right now. Sometimes you have the best intentions and you could have a great conversation that is very meaningful to a group of people. And then it takes the legs of a life of its own once you serve it up on a platter to the cesspool that is the thing. You know what I mean? But you can't really operate out of fear. Are you kind of going to go? But I grew up in an era where Don and Hugh had the grand with it and the KKK on. Yeah. Like, people were going to the jail to interview Charles Manson. Jeffrey, Jeffrey Dahman ate people. Yeah. And people were interviewing him. Would you interview Jeffrey Dahman? Yes. Probably. Yeah. Yeah, I probably would. You know, Gayle King had our Kelly artist like, like I never understood when that line and journalism was like, just we're not doing that anymore. But I didn't, I didn't grow up that way. I grew up watching these people interview these folks. I've interviewed you. And you wanted to hear from them. I've interviewed murderers and that's what I'm saying. All types of folks, yeah, for sure. I don't, I don't see the issue with it. Yeah. Do you say no to things for those type of reasons ever? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Because to your point, because of the era that we live in now and you know, sometimes you don't, you're not thinking about the person who's going to be hurt. Yeah. By this. Yeah. I do. I know about the person that gets hurt all the time. It's probably why I never, you could tell Devy that's probably why I never put the pocket tapes out because I think about the people that are going to get hurt from that. Even the people that are talked about on the tape, how that that lands. Wow. I do think about that. Have you ever gone back and listed those tapes and so? Yes. So you know, well, clearly you know what happened to everybody he talked about. I don't even know who he talked about, but yes, there's people who are no longer here, not just big. There's people in the rap world who passed and he's talking about him and not in a way that's helpful to the world. It's just he was angry at the time. He was 24 in the middle of a war. But an internal war. Like he, you know, so he's talking shit about everybody. This one, that, this one, that. Some of those people are not even here. And so it's, it's, there's just some ugliness to it that I don't even think would be representative of him at this point, but it's not for me to say. I know people really want it. So we'll figure it out. You'll help me figure it out. Absolutely. At this point, your Debbie was like, oh, he was paranoid, angry. All those people just try to kill him. And also, if I'm being really honest, it's like not amazing. It's, I was 20. It was like my first. No, listen, it's not, it's not a season devolved Angie Martinez on the radio. It's a brand new Angie Martinez on the radio. There's not a lot of follow up questions. How long is it? It's not me. It's about an hour and 40 or something like that. An hour 40 of two pocket Angie Martinez. Come on. Yes, but it's a baby Angie Martinez. People make a move though. We'll see. I'm gonna let you listen to it. And then we'll see. Oh, yes. That's what I'm talking about. Y'all got that on camera. Just you want me to let you hear it. You're gonna have to find it. No, I know it is. I have it digitized. I've always asked about that interview. I give it to people that I know that used to like go through your stuff. I hate talking about it. Because now the, the, all the comments of this interview. Now, now the comments of our interview are going to say, release the two pocket Angie Martinez. People who work for you, they love you. So they hold you down like a ball. They'd be like, I don't know. I don't know what's on it. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I also haven't told a lot of people or played it for people. I really have kept it quiet. I don't trust people. Even people that I love, I don't trust people to hold secrets. Ooh. Because I think everybody has a best friend. Everybody has a best friend. Everybody has a small circle of people they can fight in. Even if they mean well, even if I tell you something, I pride myself on being a vault. Like, you could tell me something and say, it's really important to me to not share this. And 99.9% of the time I really won't. Because I value that so much. Right. But I'm a, I de, it's part of my, like, I deeply value that. I don't know that most people operate through the world like that. No, I don't know to many people like that. My wife is like that. And so I think most times when you tell people things, they mean well, oh no, I won't tell nobody. Of course not. But you got a small circle of trusted people. And then those people also have a small circle of trusted people. So I really keep a lot of things very close to the chest because unless it's something I'm comfortable knowing, which is a lot of things, I don't hide it. I don't have a lot of... If I give you my word, I'm not going to do it. If you tell somebody, tell me something like that. You don't tell nobody. All right. You're good at that? Yeah. Because if you actually tell me not, I'm like, I'm all right. Yeah, I believe that. I feel like I've told you things before and it didn't, it didn't move. Plus also, who am I going to tell? We all know the gossip to share with certain people. Like, yes, when Angie Martinez told me, like, why do I care? Like, what do I mean? Like, what's going on in your life? Exactly. Exactly. I kind of just committed to dropping the tapes, no? Yes, you did. Is that what you just had from yesterday? That was my plan today, fuck. We really got to figure that out, Ben. Let's talk about it later. Our 40. It might be like an eight-part documentary nowadays. Yeah. It makes me sad, though, in general, just because for the culture, I feel like all our pillars are like, I don't know. What a game-eating new moguls. Yeah, it does. I think about that all the time. That's why whenever I see people like, oh, they'll always be like, yo, man, I salute you so much. But at every corner they try to chop them down at every turn. But it don't matter. That plane is still landing with the wheels out. Yeah. That plane and that's the point. Like, you want your plane to land with the wheels out, right? Do you feel that some of that? What? I don't know. Does that pressure to be a pillar in that way? Yeah. Well, you just got to do the right thing. Like, that's what I was watching the doc last week. That's all I kept saying to myself, how hard is it to do the right thing? That's a choice. Our humans are more like animals than we want to realize. Meaning that a scorpion is a scorpion regardless. It's going to sting you. If you go into the jungle, the lion isn't malicious. He's just a lion. He's just a lion. Yeah. In the jungle. So it's going to eat you and you ain't got no business in the jungle. So sometimes I wonder about certain humans. I'm like, that just got to be in you. Like, those can't be conscious choices that you're making to be that way. Like, you just might be a native wired like that. I know that I'm not a native wired. Like, I ain't perfect, but I ain't them niggas. You know what I'm saying? Not touching. But I'm just saying I'm not perfect, but I'm not that. So I just think sometimes that just got to be like that. That ruthless. It's like a ruthless. Yes. That got to be in you because I think the easiest thing to do is do right by people. You know what I mean? Pay people what they're old, you know. Hey, maybe don't hang this guy out the window. Like, it is like, there's certain ways that you, you know, you make choices. I think those are just either poach or either really poor choices are just a natively in people. I think a lot of it to not just not just puff, but like even just that time and some of our leaders and moguls at that time, they didn't have a lot. They didn't have the clarity of therapy and healing and trauma. Nobody was nobody was talking about trauma. Nobody was talking about any of that. It was a never a conversation. It's so common now as every every podcast has an episode about some version of that. And you have made great strides in having us open this conversation even more. But I wonder about that too though, because when I told my dad, when my dad started hearing me talk about me going to therapy and my experiences with anxiety and depression, 2018, he told me he was like, yo, I was going to therapy 23 times a week and, you know, so you think some people were doing it and not saying that. Yes. He, man, my dad told me he tried to kill himself back in the day. He was on ten, he said 10 to 12 different medications for his various mental health issues. And I'm like, I remember telling him, ask him, my mom, like, yo, did you know that was going through all that? And she was like, I just thought he was playing crazy to get a check. But he was really going through what he was going through, but he never shared that with anybody. So I wonder how many people actually, you know, were doing the work and did know they had issues, but just weren't telling folks. And hip hop culture, I don't, definitely was not a conversation. And I would be really surprised if the majority of people were doing it. I don't think people were doing work. I think people were running around with new power, new money, unhealed, reckless fighting demons with no kind of, I'm not making excuses for anybody or anything at all, but I'm just saying it was a different time. And some people worked on it and became better. And maybe some people didn't. Yeah. I mean, listen, that's how I wasn't out sitting back watching that doc last week, man. All I kept thinking to myself was, I don't want to be that. Whatever that is, I don't even want that nowhere near me. Like I don't even want to be in that type of mix, but I don't put myself in that type of mix. I've never been an industry to channelized person. Yeah. I like going home. Yeah. But you're also on a journey and a quest to be healthy. Absolutely. So different. That in itself, separate to you from that situation. Absolutely. But I also was just thinking about when I was even younger, I don't want to hurt. I've never wanted to hurt people. Have I unintentionally hurt people? Of course. I've never intentionally been like, I'm going to hurt that person. Like that's never, I've never had that in me. Like I never was that guy who could just... But you weren't in a place where you didn't care if you hurt somebody. Well, I was in a place of survival. Yeah. And always say, you can't judge people for what they're trying to do in there in survival mode. Like I was literally just trying to survive. You know, like when I first got back to New York, you got to think, man, I had just been fired for a time from radio. I just came off, you know, living with my mom at 31, 32 years old. My now wife was back home living with her parents. You know, our daughter was like one or two. I just collected my last unemployment check the week I drove back up to New York, you know, to start doing breakfast club. I was not going back home. I was not trying to feel that in any way, shape or form. So in that moment, anybody could get it. Like literally anybody could get it. Even Kelly rolling. Well, no, this was after. Okay. Oh, it's very tough. Yes. But Wendy was, Wendy was, I love that because those are different lessons from life, right? What I learned from Wendy was, don't compromise yourself for a position. What I learned from breakfast club was don't judge anybody for what they do while they're in survival mode. Because I was just literally trying to survive. I mean, thank God you made it out pretty unscathed. I guess. You don't think? I mean, you're flourishing. It's getting looks great, you know what I mean? Yeah, but that's it work. I guess, you know, but you know, so that's such a great comment because what people thought was success wasn't success to me, which is also the mind for right? Because this is what you said you wanted, right? Like you said you wanted all of this. But if you are doing it, if you get it and you're not happy, like I know I'm not doing it right by, you know, my wife, right? I know that a lot of the anxiety comes from this light and I'm living like, you know, like I said, going home and laying next to her, acting like everything is all good, but you know, another business trip this weekend, even though it was actual business trips, which is what you do amongst the business. Our business is different. You know, so it's just like you can have all of that and not be happy internally. So is it really success? No, not to me. I don't care what, you know, you got in your pocket and at the time I was making more money than I ever made in my life. Like, you know, breakfast club is booming, you know, great things are happening professionally. But personally, I'm like, yo, who am I? And her being the person that knows me better than anybody on this planet, who are you? Like, that would, I remember one moment in particular getting that phone call, you know, early in the morning when you ain't, you know, you and LA she on these coast times. So it's three to eight, but six something over here and you getting that call and that woman's intuition. Like, what are you doing? I'm sleeping. No, what are you doing with your life? Because you about to lose everything, motherfucker. Okay, starting with us. Like, oh, you believe there? Oh, 100%. That was like that God moment. Like, oh, yeah, like, you know, you can get that God will show you these signs and sometimes those signs are very direct, right? And you can choose the norm and think that you can continue to fly close to the sun or continue to think that you big it in the program. And you will be humbled, you know, very, very, very, very, very quick. So that was one of those moments. You must worship her. Oh, man. You worship the girl she walks on all the time. I say that to her in some way, shape or form every day, like literally every day. Because I think that you know, the Bible is right. When a man finds a good wife, he finds a great thing. And like, that woman can be awesome. She finds a good wife, he finds a great thing. And like, that woman can be all things to you in a matter of moments. And I literally, it's so far, I literally said just to her last night, it's like, I watched her in the kitchen. And it was dinner, then I ate, and then I had like a cut on my back. And she's upstairs, she put the ointment on and put the bandaid on. And then I was, you know, being funny with her. And I'm just like, you were this in the kitchen, you were, you know, this when you put the ointment on. And then if we wanted to, you could be the freak, right? And I was just like, the women are so multidimensional, it's amazing. I literally said just to her last night, like women can be so multidimensional, that it's amazing. And like, that is a blessing for a man to have. And it's not something that I take for granted in any way, shape or form. That's beautiful. It's just the truth. Look at you. What makes a good husband? I'm still learning that. I'm still figuring that out. Like, I don't think that that's something that you, I don't know if that's something you ever really truly figure out. Because I think every day of your life, you gotta wake up and set your intention and say, you know, I want to be a great husband. And you know, every day you're not going to get it right. Same thing with fatherhood. You're not going to get fatherhood right, you know, every day. Because there's no manual to get it. We don't know you much as a father in the public. Like, you've been very kind of, I mean, you share stories and lessons, but you've been very intentional about having boundaries in that area. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Just because I feel like, you know, they didn't sign up for any of this, you know what I mean? And I just, I don't feel like them, I don't want them to have to deal with any of that type of scrutiny. Yeah. You know? I don't blame you. But my oldest is 17. Wow. And she thinks I'm just a ridiculous person. She don't take me seriously. Any way, shape, or form. Like, she really does not take me seriously. She tells me every day I'm not funny. Like, like literally every day, you're not funny. You think you're so funny, but you're not funny. You think you're funny? Oh, no. She's a very, I got a very humbling 17 year old. Oh. Because she's like very stoic. And she's a cancer too. So I know she shows her emotions in different ways, but you know, that hard outside show and then that soft interior, like the crab and that's how she is. Yeah, she is. Yeah. Charlotte made the dad. I love it. I don't think there's anything more important. Hey guys, today's show is brought to you by Hard Rock Bet. 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And it's always a nice surprise. So, new rewards drop tomorrow, don't miss out, head over to the hard rock bet app and make your deposit. Payable and bonus bets, not a cash offer, offered by the Seminole Tribe of Florida and Florida, offered by Seminole Hard Rock Digital LLC in all other states must be 21 or older and physically present in Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, New Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee or Virginia to play. Terms and conditions apply, concerned about gambling in Florida, call 1-888-Admit it in Indiana. If you or someone you know has a gambling problem and wants help, call 1-800-9 with it. Gambling problem, call 1-800-Gamberler in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, New Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee, Virginia. By the way, I love that user this fair now, the festival, the mental health, the well, it's a mental wealth expo. The expo, yeah. We do the mental wealth expo every October around World Mental Health Day. And I have an organization called the Mental Welfare Alliance and it's a nonprofit. And our goal is to get 10 million people free therapy over the next five years. And we want to increase the amount of black and brown mental health professionals, because I think black people only make up like 4%. Is that right? Yeah, of all mental health professionals. I want to get it to at least reflect the population of black people in this country. So we got like actual goals and mission statements that we want to do. And you know, Dev is on the board of that. And we have some like really big plans for next year. Like I want to. I love that you're doing that because I remember after my car accident, right? And you were one of the people. I was looking for somebody to help me with some PTSD. And I called you because you had just, you had been doing so much work and you advocate for therapy and mental health. And I was like, I'm looking for a PTSD. Remember this? That I called you an actress. Some PTSD work. And then I realized, wow, if I'm calling him, everybody must be calling you. Oh, man. Like everybody must be like, you probably like rappers or music artists. No, it's, oh, COVID. No, in COVID, every rapper in the world was reaching out. And it was, it was funny to me because I remember one rapper in particular reached out. He was like, man, I'm just realizing I got any issues. And I'm like, you, you just realizing you got any issues? Have you heard your house? I'm right the name down. I'm right the name down. And you, you are just realizing that. And I was like, he was like, yeah, I really want to see that. Oh, God, you don't even have to finish it. I have to see it. And he was like, I really want to sit down and you know, just talk to somebody. But I was just like, but that was, it was just mind boggling to me because COVID was the time where all of us had to be still. And some of us were really seeing each other for the first time, seeing ourselves for the first time. And a lot of us didn't like what we saw, but during COVID, every, I promise you, it just felt like every rapper was reaching out, looking to talk, wanting to talk to somebody. And finally, a good therapist is really hard. Very hard. So coming to, so people in their like vulnerable state coming to you must feel, I don't know, not like a burden, but responsibility to. It honestly felt good because it felt good that I was able to point people in the direction. Like, hey, you should go talk to this person. This is a good person that you should sit down and talk to. How many good therapists are that you can recommend? Like I said, I know a lot. Yeah, because of the conversation, the conversations that I was having around my own, you know, mental health issues, and you know, the work that I've been doing the last decade in this space, I know some really good ones from Dr. Rita Walker, the Dr. Alfie Breland Noble, the guys like Dr. J. Bartonette, you know, Elliot Conney, didn't there's people that they can talk to like Jason Wilson? Like there's so many fantastic, you know, people in this space. What is your number one advice for somebody who's never done therapy and looking to start doing some work on themself? Don't give up just because you go there, because it's not like you go there and have one conversation and then everything's fixed, you're healed, you know, healing is a constant process, right? And you should, you know, just take, it takes a while to really start unpacking. Like I know I probably lied to my first therapist. A lot. Lying to the therapist is crazy. But I just know I probably was, like you're kind of telling her like, have truth. You're a version of it. You're a version, yes, you're a version, hey, that's the perfect way. Because we lie into ourselves sometimes. Yes, right. So you're telling the therapist, you're a version. Yes, right. You know, I don't really, it takes time for them to. That's right. And then they be like slow walking you sometimes because they want you to get to the truth, sit on, always tell you, that annoys me about therapists. I like a therapist to get to it. I'd be like, yeah, it's, tell me what you see. And some people you just don't, you might not feel super comfortable opening up to. You might just go to the therapist and feel like, okay, I know I'm supposed to talk to this person. So let me talk, but I'm not, you know, being completely, completely honest about everything. So what good is that really, you know, doing you? That's what I said when I did Ayahuasca, I had, it was incredible. I did it two years ago. No fear? I have fear because I feel like it could, could it mess with your brain? Like, can it, uh, I had fear the first day, but the first day it told me everything was going to be fine. It told you. Oh, oh yes. Like the, that spirit, mother Ayahu, God, I don't know what you call it, but it, it, it's really talking to you. Like it's really, like, I can't even say voices in your head. Like you're having full, blown conversations with this spirit, with this entity and this spirit is willing to show you whatever you're willing to look at. And, and once you're there with it, it's not going to let you look away. Like you know how sometimes you have those glimpses of things that you try to suppress in your mind. It's like, no, I don't think, yes, look at this, look, and you want, you want to have to deal with it. And I remember, I did, I did a three day, three day retreat. So on the second day is when it like really kicked my ass. And that's when I came up with the whole concept of, you know, stop lying to yourself and stop volunteering those lies to other people. And that's when I, the whole book, get honest to get honest or die lying. And that's when I was like, you know, either you going to be all the way honest about these experiences and these things that you've gone through are, you know, we don't have to figure something else out. And it was, it was that moment that really was like, okay, this is the real I open. Like this is, if I'm going to really live an authentic life, it's going to be from this point on. Mm-hmm. That's why this year is very important because this is the year to snake 2025. What does that mean? The lunar in Chinese zodiac. Wait, 2025? 2025 is the year to snake, 2026 is the year to horse. But 2025 is the year to snake because we're supposed to be shedding all our old bullshit. Yes, I said that. All our old bullshit, the bad energy, the negative energy, you know, the things that have caused you guilt, the things that you're insecure about, like this is the year that you're supposed to really, really, really let it all go. And it's about new beginnings and transformation in 2026 is the year to horse. And you're supposed to get off, get on that horse and, you know, ride into your destiny. Sold. Right home. Sold. So if you just, I'm like to buy that ticket. That's right. And it's a nine year. And nine is the highest level of change. So if you feel like things are changing right now, if you feel like there's a shift going on with you right now, it's because it actually is. It energetically, it's right now. And then we got 19 days to really shed and, and, you know, let all of those things from the past that may have been holding you back, all those regrets, whatever it is, you got 19 days to let that all go. And ride off to the sunset in 2026 on your horse. I might have to do a Alaska before the end of the year. The year of the shedding. I got the, huh? It makes it. I did it in a Cali. Cali? I did it in Cali. And it was an amazing experience. And I, yes, I did it with a group of people. It was like, are you 15 of us? And people you know, I didn't know everybody, but I knew the whole family very well. And my wife and my wife did it with us. And yeah, it was, it was very, I can't, I can't even, if you're already a spiritual person and you've already been doing the work on yourself, it is one of the most incredible things that you could ever do. I don't even know if I would do it if I hadn't had done, had done so much work on myself. Like you don't go from zero to that. Right? Because it would be too much for us. Yeah, you don't go from zero to that. All right, we got two segments to do. This is our voice note segments. OK. It's a question or a comment. Usually there are questions. Today's a comment presented by Boost Mobile. And it's in the spirit of mentorship because you've been such a great mentor. Go. Shalame, this is art. I just want to thank you for helping me understand just how necessary and how essential I am in this world. You know, when I first moved to New York City, I was 21 years old at the time, fresh out of college, and things didn't go my way as I planned at all. You know, I felt like a failure. I was working at a small apartment gym in Manhattan and looking back home, I was watching my friends get into their corporate jobs and living their dreams. And I felt embarrassed and lost. But when I heard your South Carolina commencement speech, it changed my mindset. You said that we are necessary because God designed us. And that reminded me that my journey still has purpose. So I repeat that to myself every night. So I want to thank you for helping me understand my power. Oh, no. Did you know that story? Did you know that about him? Yeah, I knew the thing about the sake of a lot of commitment speech. Because I remember seeing him tweet one day that he a post on Instagram somewhere. He used to always tag me and he was like, I listen to this speech every day. And then, you know, Nile, he knew Nile somehow some way and Nile, like I really want you to meet this guy named Art. He, you know, really looks up to you. And now ArtWorksAppI1051. So. No, no, you're really good like that. Like seeing the driving people and the talent and people and supporting and putting your arms around them, which I think is amazing. But isn't that cool when you when you have a moment that that line you said about God designed? What is the exact line? Yeah, God, God, you're necessary because God designed you to be necessary. You just got to find that thing that you're necessary at doing. Like that's the problem with the world that we're in now. It's so many people are trying to do what everybody else is doing. I'm like, why be a second-rate version of somebody else when you could be a first-rate version of yourself? Like the analogy I like to use is, it's Christmas time. And what is Christmas time? Lord, I'm right. It's Christmas time. And so there's a big old Christmas tree. But everybody in the world has a gift under that tree that can absolutely change their life and change their circumstance. Your gift is under there. It's there. But everybody in the world is trying to get to their gift. So imagine how frustrated you'll get. You're at art saying how he saw everybody else getting their corporate jobs. Some people get frustrated about that and just quit. They just be like, oh, man, I ain't going to never find what's mine. So the only person that can literally stop you in that situation is you. If you just be patient, if you just keep working, if you just be consistent at trying to find what it is that you know is going to change your life, eventually you will find your gift. And when you find that gift, everything else opens up for you. But just imagine the frustration that could set in when everybody in the world is competing with you to try to find their gift under this tree. It's there. It just takes some patience and some time to find it. And not quitting, right? And not quitting. But it's one thing to have this idea of this epiphany that you have, right? And then say it and then go to a commencement speech and share it. I don't know, but receiving it back when you see it actually doing its work. It's actually you plant the seed and it actually lands. Yeah, that's right. And it actually changes somebody's life. That's God. So when you pray, when you're writing a speech, right? Like when you're writing a commencement speech. I wrote, I write, I didn't have a team of writers. It wasn't a chat GPT without this commencement speech. Like I wrote the commencement speech. It was from my mother's alma mater, South Carolina State University. And then I ended up getting an honorary degree from them as well. And so it's just like when I wrote that, like those, I pray, I say, God, I want you to guide my words. What is it that you want me to tell these students in this moment? That's the download God gave me to share it with them. Look at art. Look at art. You know, look at art. But the fact that art even appreciates, you know, where he's at. Because I, you know, you remember that. You remember being that young boy out working at the radio station, you know. But now these kids can do other things as well. Have their own podcast and stuff while they're doing that. It's just fun to watch because you just never know where people are going to end up. Yeah. It is really fun. The episode is brought to you by Walden University. You guys think you're too busy to earn the degree that you have always wanted? You are not too busy. It's never too late. At Walden University, you can get the W. That's what they do. They get the W. And you can win your time back with tempo learning. You are in control. This is very cool. There are no weekly deadlines. There are no rigid schedules. Who has time for that? There's just a flexibility for you to earn your degree on your terms at your pace. And within your budget, ready to start, visit WaldenU.edu today. Walden University set a course for change, certified to operate by chef. All right. And lastly, our IRL bowl. Let's get in there, my guy. Our in real life bowl segment is brought to you by Walden University. I don't know all these questions aren't the same question. They might be. Never. Never that. Let me see. If today were your last day on Earth, what would you be doing? Dying. What's your name? Maybe your death is sudden. Maybe your death is sudden. Why would you? Maybe you don't know. Maybe you have a whole full day before you start dying. Yeah. Today was my last day on Earth. I would be living. I don't know why my Joe Button death concept just came to me. What's the Joe Button death concept? I had Joe on the on the pod. He thinks that we all have this was when I was in my, we're all going to die back in the beginning of the pod. But he has a theory that there are signs that we all get signs in our life that will let us know how we're going to leave, like how we're going to pass. Interesting. If you pay attention to the details of your life, that it almost will tell you how it's going to end. Interesting. I know you have to. I wonder what that is. Are you friendly with him or are you guys, you're like good and bad? You're like frenemies? No, I haven't talked to him in a while. I haven't talked to Joe in a while. I don't have any problems with you. I feel like you should be friendly to him. No, I actually got a lot of love for Joe. Me and Joe, you know what it is? Me and Joe, when we are mad at each other, we go bad on each other. I know. But you're both evolved now. You should be in better space. I don't know. I know you both. I know you both. I know I know I know I run into him somewhere and we will pick up, like we always have. I'm sure. That's all it is. When me and Joe go bad, we go bad on each other. When I hear why he's upset with me, I'm like, I can understand why he felt that way. You know what I'm saying? This last one, I'm like, I get it. I didn't mean it in the way that he received it, but I can understand why he felt that way. That's when he was going through his last situation with Spotify. I was on the radio and I said, I think Joe Biden understands. Joe Biden knows his worth. He doesn't know how to negotiate it or something. I think I said. I was just like, you know, if every time you're at a corporation and things don't go the way you want them to kind of got to blame you and you and your team. And then we would say it was a whole discussion around podcasts and I was like, you know, you can't compare yourself to the Joe Rogan's and the Bill Simmons and all those guys. The Joe Rogan's and the Namely. Number one, like, don't nobody do numbers like Rogan period. Black, white, it don't matter. And you know, the guys like Bill Simmons, they have networks. So they get compensated a little bit different for that. And so that was actually a conversation. I probably shouldn't have been having publicly on air. But you know, we on radio, we on these podcasts and we all do it. He does it as well. You know what I'm saying? Of course. But in that moment, what he was saying was when somebody like Shalameen says that these people are listening. Like meaning not regular listeners, the people that Spotify and the people that these corporations, but it wasn't like I wasn't saying he wasn't worth it. I was just just speaking how I felt about the situation in that moment. And you're both speaking to your audience. To our audience. You are not speaking to each other. Exactly. But no, the crazy part is we worse. We do speak to each other. So it's like, I'll go from that on the radio to then watching him tweet and then we might be on the phone that afternoon having the same discussion argument. But I don't think he expressed to me back then that he didn't like me saying that on the air. It was just a debate about the content of the situation. And then it was even when he went bad on his podcast, we were on the phone that Sunday. And then another time he got mad because I didn't answer his call. It's stupid shit. So it's really nothing. But when we go bad on each other, we go bad on each other. What is that? Because you're both madmen. I don't fucking know. I was thinking something in that. I just wondered if you guys were aware of it. I enjoy you both very much. I would like to see you guys make nice. I'm sure I will. I'm sure I will. All right, one more. Take one more. Our in real life ball question. Give me something that lasts and was dark. It was dark. I know some of your pet peeves triggers. Adult liars. I hate adult liars. Who are you afraid of? What are you still lying for at your big age? I was born in 1970. I'm 47. There's no reason for adults to be lying to each other. I can't stand it. It drives me crazy when adults lie to each other. Like we're grown. And I also feel like you're. Or lie to themselves usually is because they lie to themselves. That's right. So most people that are still lying to themselves have no problem lying to you. And I don't understand how we advance as a society. I forget society. I don't understand how this relationship can advance if we're never dealing with reality. I'm dealing with reality, but you're always lying. I can't have people. I cannot have people like that around me. Those pet peeves, those type of triggers. I don't want those people around me. What are you most proud of about yourself through this whole journey? Man, what am I most proud of about myself? I've never thought about that. What am I most proud of about myself? I mean, honestly, probably probably the evolution of being a husband and being a father. That's when I feel the most proud that I've created a stable environment for my kids. My kids have so many options. And for the rest of their life, we'll have so many options. I always say I wanted to just raise trauma-free children for the most part. And I think I've been doing a pretty good job at that. You can't protect them from life, of course. But they live a good life. They get the trauma from you. They didn't get the trauma from me, exactly. They live a good life. The fact that we are able to travel, and I didn't get on a plane until I was 21, 22 years old. Flying to New York, 21, 22 years old. The first time I even traveled, but for them, they've been all around the world. And you see how that shows up in just their everyday vernacular, their intelligence, the way they're able to communicate with people. And they're in school, they're doing reports about, they're reading about places they've actually been. That's cool. When you watch your daughter have to do a report on some place like South Africa, but she's like, I got pictures of me in South Africa. I'm going to tell you about South Africa. Exactly. What you mean, Nelson Mandela? I went to the jail. That Nelson Mandela was in. That stuff means a lot. So I think that I'm most proud of being able to be in a position to create that kind of environment for my wife and kids to where they can live a pretty trauma-free life. Well done, man. That's what makes me proud. I mean, that's pretty good. That's a great accomplishment. This is my last question. This is my favorite one in the bowl. One more thing. Yes. And the opportunities I'm able to provide by being in this position. Because I always say I want to be the adult that I needed as a child. And going back to, not to heart-water, but going back to the documentary. It's like just being able to do right by people. Just saying, it's a great feeling to have somebody reach out and be like, this check is the biggest check I've ever seen in my life. That type of like, I like stuff like that. I mean, being able to put somebody in position to get a book there. Whatever it is. And people, you know, make their dreams come alive. That makes me proud too. That's pretty great. This is your last question. You picked it? I did. I picked it out and it's my favorite one. So I want to make sure you got it. That's my favorite question. Jesus Christ, I need glasses. If God were to text you right now, what would it say? He would say, good job. Maybe keep going. He might say good job. Keep going. Good job, Mike. All right. Come on home now. I don't want that. You know what I'm saying? Good job. Keep going. Good job. Come on home now. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. That's right. Shalom in the God. It's a real life. It's a shalom in the God in real life. It's a shalom in the God in real life. Hey guys, thanks for watching. Make sure you subscribe, like, comments, and check out all of the other episodes we have on Age of Martinez IRL podcast. This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human.