#2448 - Andrew Doyle

The Joe Rogan Experience Shrink my day Joe Rogan podcast my night all day Yes, and Drew. Hello. Good to see you brother. Good to see you, Drew. It has been, you said, six years almost to the day. Almost to the last time. So lots changed. Right before everything went crazy. That's it. Right before. Yeah, the whole world. Because everything went cookie around March, right? So it was February 2020 and then then we have COVID and then we have, you know, we've had Trump in between of that. We have BLM. That's summer of 2020. Everything just exploded when. Yeah. Yeah. And then everything shifted. And then you wrote a book. It's called The End of Woke. How the culture war went too far and what to expect from the counter revolution. Isn't that how it always goes though? It goes like we go too far. Yeah. And then we over-correct. And we become Nazis. Yeah. That's it. Exactly. Yeah. It's the opposite. We go socialist. Yeah. It's a big pendulum. I get that sort of goes back and forth. I mean, I was trying to, in that book, I'm trying to make the point that what woke was was like a kind of The latest manifestation of a kind of innate authoritarian impulse. I think human beings are by default quite inclined towards just shutting people up if they don't like them. Yeah. Just imposing their authority. And so woke, well, I mean, a lot of people are annoyed that have called it The End of Woke. I'm not saying it's all over. Let's just go home. Forget about it. It's still going on. But the point about it is that in its current manifestation things are changing now so rapidly. We are moving into some sort of new phase. And that authoritarianism, which we've associated with the left, might come up from the right. It could come up from anywhere. It's what you say about the pendulum. Yeah. So you just have to be kind of vigilant about it. I don't think we were vigilant. I think that's why woke happened. We weren't vigilant against this prospect that authoritarianism could emerge in what we thought was a free society. Well, authoritarianism, it's snuck in through a sheep costume. Yeah. It was in a sheep's costume. Yeah. It was a costume of being more inclusive, being more open-minded, being a better society, being kinder. It led to child trans surgeries, led to chaos. It led to a lot of really fucking freaky things that you would have never expected. People saying that the first amendment is not important. Right. It's more important as protecting people. Well, that was the key, wasn't it? The point was that the way it worked was that it was gullying people through language that sounded pretty sweet and kittenish and fluffy. You know, things like equity. Well, that sounds a lot like equality, doesn't it? Right. But it doesn't mean equality. It means treating people unequally to ensure equal outcomes are calling to group identity. That's a very different thing. You say you're talking about let's make everything inclusive. But what you really mean is let's exclude anyone who disagrees with what we've got to say. So you're using language to mean the exact opposite. They say gender affirming care. Do they mean that? Or do they mean affirming what is effectively a pseudoscientific belief among vulnerable people? So it's all about misusing language because most people I think, or I like to think, are pretty decent. Most people want to be kind, want to be fair. And when you hear these activists saying be kind, be compassionate, or else. Right? You kind of think, okay, well, maybe their intentions are good, but also they're pretty scary. I mean, there's a weird thing with the woke thing, which was that on the one hand it proclaimed to be this sort of great virtuous, kind, progressive, right side of history. How often did you hear that phrase? Right. And at the same time, they're like dangerous dogs. Like, you're better not piss them off. I better not say the wrong thing, the workplace, because they'll destroy you. Well, I always find that the most preposterous the idea is, and the least capable it is to stand up to scrutiny, the more violent the enforcement of that idea will be, because you cannot combat that. You can't defend that idea with logic, so you have to defend it with fear and force. And just shouting people down, and that's what we saw. And that's, it's a natural impulse of human beings. That's right. Like when you're arguing with a kid, you know, when you're a kid and you're arguing with a kid and you say something, you don't even know you, you shut the fuck up. Yeah. Just to start scaring you. So why is it though that some countries and some societies seem to protect themselves better than others, against that impulse? And I feel at the moment that the UK is kind of failing where America is to a degree succeed, not in obviously in all ways, but when it comes to the idea of freedom and free speech, like, I think UK is pretty far as pretty fallen to the kind of the, the, the woke insistence that you need to control people's language, so that you can create this perfect society which can never come anyways. Well, I think it's been co-opted. I think whatever organic version of that emerges naturally from society, where people, where there's an over correction, I think in the UK, because you guys don't have free speech laws, because it's just different over there. Yeah. You can get away with a lot of crazy shit. Like, first of all, like we should explain what we're talking about. There's more than 12,000 people have been arrested in the UK in the past year for social media posts. And if you read some of those social media posts, they're not even remotely terrifying. It's not like, I'm going to grab a knife and go cut the head off of every immigrant I see. Like, hey buddy, maybe we should lock this guy up and evaluate him. He sounds like a crazy person. Like, no, the immigrants are coming into this fucking country and creating all this crime. Knock on the door. You're going to jail. I worry that Americans think we mad. Sometimes I think we do. We do. Yeah, do you? We do now. Yeah, we think you've lost it. Yeah. Well, we also think something happened, where your leaders are intentionally trying to tank your country. It seems like they're trying to bring in as many migrants as possible, cater to them, not to the British people, and do it openly, so that everyone knows what they're doing and then create chaos on the streets because of it. Yeah, I mean, people have a phrase for that, an arco tyranny, where you punish people who aren't breaking the law, but you protect those who are. Right. I think with the, I mean, I don't know the extent that Americans know the, I mean, the stat you quoted, that came from the Times newspaper in London, which had a freedom information request to the police, found out that it's 12,000 a year on average. So that's like 30 a day, not just being investigated or looked into, but being arrested. But over the last few years, only if you go back, it's only like a thousand or 500 cuts. It was 3000 last time we spoke back in 2023. Was it really a year? Back then? Yeah. Oh my god. So we already had that problem. And we were, he knows that many. That's crazy. Even back then. It was already really high. I mean, we had stuff like the old stories of like, there was that guy in 2010 who made a joke online about, he was that donkaster airport in the UK. He said, oh, if this queue doesn't hurry up, I'm going to blow up the airport. Just a stupid funny tweet. He went all the way to court. That was a full trial. Oh, so these, these laws. And I think what happens with this stuff is people don't realize how long this has been embedded in the UK. We have hate speech laws that are encoded in a number of different legislations. We have a thing called the Public Order Act. We have a thing called Militius Communications Act. That's from 1988. We have Communications Act from 2003. And all of these things criminalize. I tell you, I kid you not. The language in the statute books is if it's grossly offensive, that's the phrase. If you post something that is grossly offensive, you can go to court. You can be prosecuted. But you know, I find. It's not subjective. Well, that's it. What does that even mean? I find laws against free speech to be grossly offensive. So should the British state be arrested? I don't know. And there's one. I think it's in the Militius Communications Act where it talks about needless anxiety, causing needless anxiety, can get you arrested. And you think that's not a thing. And give you just specific example. Peaceful obstacles. I have once, my friend Winston Marshall, I worry that if I try it, I'll cough and I'll look really windpish and pathetic. It will backfire. I tell you, I'll undermine everything. It'd be like I'm sitting here with a paper hat on, a Christmas, undermining all of my key points. Right. I like the flavour and I like being around smokers because my grandmother used to chain smoke around me. So it's kind of boy. What's she's Northern Irish? You know, that's the way they do. She used to give me whiskey when I was three to calm me down. Oh, wow. It's that sort of family. That's an old thing they used to do with kids. They did. They put it in their babies. They put it in their mouth. It will. They would dip their finger in whiskey and rub it on the inside of a kid's mouth. If you're struggling with the child, get it drunk. That's how you... It's old Northern Irish wisdom. I don't think you should scoff at it. It's a good thing. But I'll be more than half grossly offensive. It's grossly offensive. It's grossly offensive. The example I was going to give was this guy called Darren Brady. And this sounds made up and whenever I tell people this, it sounds made up, he posted a meme. I don't know if you saw this meme where it was the four progress pride flags. You know that it's got the crazy triangles and stuff in it. You put them all together and they become a swastika. Exactly that. Right. And that was going everywhere. And he posted it. And there's a video of him being arrested put in handcuffs. He's an army veteran, by the way. Put in handcuffs by the police. And the policeman says in the video, you caused someone anxiety. So the actual language from the law is being used for this rearrangement of the... And you know what? That's quite a good satirical point that he was making. It wasn't even his meme. He was just retweeting a meme. But even if it was some horrible offensive thing, who cares? How is that offensive? Well I guess, I mean, well you can find... that's the problem. You can find anything offensive. You could find anything grossly offensive if you're extremely sensitive. You could. But it wasn't there a point to that. I mean he was kind of saying that the LGBT QIA plus movement has become quite authoritarian. Yeah. He's not saying their actual Nazis. And he's saying, oh isn't it quite funny that when you put them together, it looks like a swastika. The idea that you get handcuffed for that. Especially for a retweet. That's crazy. Yeah, that's crazy. It's retweets, it's tweets, it's posts. We've had memes of the big ones. So there was a guy called Lee Joseph Dunn, who went to prison for eight weeks. That was last year I think, for three memes that he posted. Eight weeks. Eight weeks in prison. What the right... again. I'll tell you what the most offensive of the three memes was. And you can tell me whether you think it was worth prison time. Oh, right. He put a picture of some immigrants with knives, and underneath it said coming to a town near you. And that was it. So I don't know if you think that's worth prison time. That's the most offensive one. Of the three, that's the most. What's the least offensive one? I can't remember what the other two were. Because I remember, I looked at them, I thought, well that's not even worth... That's not even worth thinking about. But this one was the one that really... Because they say in England, you're stirring up hatred against minorities through the spreading of the meme. Right. But that's clearly not sufficient. And I think in the US you have... You have far more protections. I wonder whether it's to do with the fact that in the US you have the First Amendment. Like you see you have something codified that says, you can say what you want. We've never had that. It's very important. And it didn't seem important 20 years ago or 30 years ago. Because no one ever looked at England as being that kind of a country that would just put people... Well, obviously, this was all pre-social media. And England has always been a fairly polite society. Yes. And the thing is, now pub talk has become illegal, right? Like if you see something offensive in a pub, you're subject to be arrested. And they're asking people to turn people in. There's a thing called the banter ban, which the Labour government was trying to put in. Here's the logic of the banter ban. I forgot about this, but now you mentioned it. They wanted to introduce this law. So that, for instance, if you're working in a bar or a pub, and you overhear someone who says something against your protected characteristic, say you're a gay barman, and someone says, oh, I don't like the gay or something. And you overhear it. Your employer has a duty to protect you from that kind of hate speech, that kind of harm. So therefore, there's going to be a blanket ban on certain kinds of speech within the pub, right? I would say the guy who's even dropping, he's the problem, right? You shouldn't be listening in on other people's conversations. So that's a real thing. Yes. And I guess it all comes down to this view, which I think is completely wrong, that words and violence are the same thing, that words can create a more violent society, that there's a direct causal link between the stuff that people say and the stuff that people say online to how people behave in the real world. And I think you guys have got it right, because you've got the Brandenburg test. Do you know about the test for incitement of violence in the US? No, what is that? It's basically a test that was established, I think, back in the 60s. It was a KKK leader called Clarence Brandenburg, who was prosecuted for incitement of violence. And the test was established since that precedent, was that any words that can be convicted for incitement of violence, they have to be intended to cause violence, likely to cause violence, and the violence must be imminent. And if you satisfy those that threshold, you can be prosecuted in the US for incitement of violence. So be like, kind of, imagine a demagogue surrounded by all his fans, whipping up a frenzy, and then pointing to a guy on the front row and saying, kill him now. That would qualify for the Brandenburg test, but in the UK, because we don't have that test, all we've got is whether people found it offensive. That's the difference of the threshold. So it's a massive difference between what the US has and what the UK has. Massive. It's insane. I mean, to give the most obvious recent example, because I don't know if people know about this, there's a woman called Lucy Connolly in the UK. I don't know if this was reported over here at all. Do you remember we had all these riots last year during the summer when against hotels which were housing asylum seekers, and people were setting fire to them? There were genuinely racist stuff going on right during those riots. And this was off the back of a guy who'd murdered a bunch of little girls in a dance class. And there were rumors going around that this was an asylum seeker, right? And this one woman, a mother, who'd lost her daughter, very sensitive about the idea of Lucy Connolly. She's very sensitive about the idea of loss of kids. She tweeted in a fit of anger, go and burn down all the hotels for all I care, if that makes me racist, so be it. And take the government with you, something like that. And she deleted it within a couple of hours. She went out walk to dogs, she deleted it. And she thought, that's not me, that's not who I am. Delete it. Police came, went to court, sentenced to 31 months in prison for that swiftly deleted tweet. And she served over a year. Oh my god. Now, I'm not saying the tweet was nice, right? The tweet was a horrible tweet. And she says it was a horrible tweet. That's why she deleted it. But because we don't have that, Brandenburg test, we don't have a test for in type of violence. Because the key is that tweet. There was no way it could have, she was in a no, but you know, she wasn't someone with influence. She didn't have many followers. She, no one was going to read that and go and act upon it. And if they did, that would be on them, right? Because this is a myth, this myth that people act on cue to what they read online. It's, it's real. It influences people for sure. But at what point are you required to have sovereignty over your own mind and your own actions? Yeah. Well, I think what it does is it raises the temperature, particularly when political leaders do it. Right, but when political, my point is like, it's not going to incite you to violence. It's not going to incite me to violence. So who are we talking about? Right. This is part of the thing is like they're protecting the dumbest members of society. This is like the thing about banning, you know, crazy talk online. If you're talking about witches or, you know, whatever it is, flat earth. Like we have to stop misinformation. But from who? It's not working on you, right? Yes. You don't believe it. So who are we protecting? We're protecting the dumbest people? Also, aren't you kind of letting them off? Like if someone goes and commits an act of violence and said, oh, I did it because someone told me to do it. Aren't you kind of letting them off the hook? Right. Exactly. And sort of displacing the blame. You know, it's like that guy who shot John Lennon, who said, catcher in the rhyme, made him do it. The reading the book catcher. Are we now blaming JD Salinger for the murder of John Lennon? It was John Lennon, wasn't it? I think it did. So do you, I think the safest approach is to say, people are responsible for their own actions. I think the best that you can say is, when political leaders and people with clout say things like that, it's fine to go out and commit violence, I think what they do is they create a kind of imprimatur of approval. They create this kind of sense that if you do it, the people in charge will have your back. If you do it, it's okay. Well, this was the argument with Trump for January 6th. Right. And that's why the BBC edited his speech to make it look as if that's what he was saying. You saw that clip, right? Oh my God, it's fucking crazy. I mean, I've been saying for a long time that BBC has a real, like what I will say in the BBC's defense, is they've always been pretty good at being party politically neutral. Right. They will interrogate someone in the right and someone in the left in a pretty neutral way. I think they do pretty good. I know people will be annoyed at me for saying that, but I think they do. But I think in terms of the ideology, the woke ideology, they got captured. They have a thing at the BBC called the LGBT desk, or they had it up until recently, which could veto any news story, which meant that any story that was slightly critical of trans activism or anything like that just didn't get reported. So I'm not surprised that the BBC have a... They gave them veto power? They gave them veto power, yeah. That's crazy. This all came out in a report, quite a recent report just a few months ago, which led to the resignation of Tim David, the director general, and he resigned ostensibly because of that Trump clip, which by the way, that wasn't the first time they did it. There was another clip about a year before, in a different program that did the same thing, took the clip, re-edited it, and made it look like he had said something, he absolutely had not said. So I think the BBC, quite obviously, has an ideological bias, if not a party political bias. But that's more than a bias. It's misleading, right? It's completely deceptive. You're editing something, and they took out a giant chunk of his speech. This episode is brought to you by 1-800-FLOWERS.COM. Valentine's Day is coming up. It always sneaks up on people. If you want an easy way to absolutely crush it this year, this is it. 1-800-FLOWERS roses. They're bigger and actually last. Plus, they back it with a seven-day freshness guarantee so you can feel confident that you're sending the best. Here's the deal. Right now, they've got this double blooms offer. You buy one dozen roses, they double it to two dozen for free. No catch. Same price, way bigger statement. They also do same-day delivery nationwide. So even if you waited longer than you should have, you're still good. This is one of those rare situations where doing something big is actually easy. Go to 1-800-FLOWERS.COM.COM. Slash-Rogan to get the double blooms offer. Buy one dozen, they double it to two dozen roses free. That's 1-800-FLOWERS.COM.COM. Slash-Rogan. I forget how many minutes it was. They left like 45 minutes or something. Right. So he said something crazy like that. Yeah, he said it made him look like he was saying go and commit exactly. Exactly. And instead, he was in tongue in cheek, talking about the very fine center, like they're doing a great job, the center is in congress people, said all this other stuff. It's so weird that you have to fight like hell to keep your country. No offense, but you can find daft stuff that Trump says pretty easily. You don't need to edit that stuff down. Well, it's because they had an opportunity to like what we were saying before earlier. We were talking before the show. You can put out a narrative. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be true. And then that's the one that sticks. So that's the one that spreads wide. And then when all these years later, they have to have this trial, and everybody finds out it's not true. But the damage is done. I mean, that's what they did with Trump during the whole steel dossier. Yeah. And then they put out the hookers and peeing on people and all that crazy shit, remember that? I remember the idea that he'd hired hookers to urinate on the bed that was once occupied by the Obama's. Something wrong with them. Right. Now, the reason I didn't believe that is I don't think Trump is that avant-garde. I don't think he's that creative. Like if he had come up with that, I'd have been actually applauding that. That's kind of amazing. But obviously he didn't do that. But that's not even the sort of the plot. It just sounds like a work of art. It's ridiculous. Urination on the bed of your enemy through the medium of prostitution. You know, you're not an artistic thing to do. But I don't think he did it. I obviously didn't do it. None of it's true. Right. But you put that, but isn't that way that that in particular, that's like something I don't think anyone seriously could believe? Well, there's plenty of people that believed it. And they don't, yeah, they don't have to believe it. They just say it. Like that was the whole point about, you know, the trial where he got arrested and convicted of 34 counts that are a felony, none of which are actually a felony. That's all bookkeeping deception. That was the paying off of the girl. So now you can say he's a convicted felon. You can just say that. And even though all those counts were misdemeanors, all of them had passed the statute of limitations. Exactly. But for some reason, through no legal way than anybody could ever really honestly explain, they decided to label it a felony. And it was just to turn them into a felon. I saw the, I saw even left-leaning anti-Trump lawyers saying, this is not how the law should work. You can't artificially elevate a misdemeanor to a felony outside the statute of limitations. Well, the thing is, if you do that, they're going to do that to you. It's like, we're going to give that kind of power to the Republicans. And now when they're in office, they're going to start doing things like that. Are we crazy? Well, also, this really bothers me. Like one of the key things that I think's happened over the past few years, is this complete lack of feel to the truth from both sides. It's whatever is convenient matters more. A complete lack of intellectual curiosity, a complete lack of investigating and looking and thoroughly checking. And by the way, with the BBC, that really matters because, unlike the news media here, which can be as part of the standards it likes, the BBC is the state broadcaster. It's got a responsibility by charter to not be, to be balanced, to be even handed. And it completely failed. And I saw today just this morning, some people, you know, we've got all the manor about the Epstein files at the moment. Some activists have now said, J.K. Rowling, once invited Epstein to the opening of her theatre play, never happened. But because there's a Ferrari about Epstein at the moment, they're just saying it happened. He gets spread all over the place. That's all you have to do. And that's all you have to do. And then that gets repeated. Oh, didn't this happen? I know. Like we say about Trump is right. I always hear that he's a convicted felon. He's a convicted felon. Well, why don't you pause for a minute and assess whether or not that conviction is sound, or whether it's politically motivated, or how helpful that is. But like you say, Also, it's like, it's such a dangerous president to say. Right. It's terrible. Like if you do that, it'll look right now in the United States, the media predominantly leans left, except for Fox News. The mainstream large-scale media. I guess CBS is probably going to lean more right now. Yeah, yeah. It seems like it's in the process of that. But for the most part, when you watch CNN, if you watch MSNBC, if you watch the mainstream news, it's very left-leaning. Yeah. But if the fucking, if right-wing people started, if it was like more common for the news to be right-leaning, and then they started doing the exact same thing about a left-leaning candidate, yeah. This is so dangerous. And the idea that the left doesn't recognize that, which are the people that have always been in support of free speech. It's never been a right-wing thing to support free speech until now. It's always been a left-wing thing. When I was a kid, it was famously the case of the ADL, defending Nazis, having the right to protest, and saying, look, we think what they're saying is important, but it's very important that you get the right to say whatever you feel, and then the way to combat that is with much better, more concise speech that's much more logical and makes sense. Yeah. And this is what you do. This is what debate is for. We've always known this. Yeah, but I agree. I'm so disperited by that, that very thing that you've identified. The left used to be about this, the left used to be all about, I mean, that example you mentioned of a Scoki, wasn't it, in Chicago, the Nazis marching through Scoki, and the ACLU saying, we're defending this. There was a book by a guy called Arya Nia, who was the head of the ACLU, called Defending Mayan. Yeah, it wasn't the ADL, it was the ACLU. It was the ACLU, and he was saying, you know, he's Jewish. He's got family members who died in the Holocaust, but he's writing a book saying, I'm defending the Nazis right to free speech, not because I support them, but because I don't. And I want to defend the principle whereby I can tackle them. And that's speech. Right. So in other words, the principle is so much bigger. I mean, the thing that I think has been lost, and now, by the way, the ACLU, complete about turn. I mean, there was a lawyer for the ACLU, tweeting about how he wanted Abigail Shryer's book banned, and he said, this is the hill I will die on. You know, that's a guy called Chase. I think it's a trans activist, called Chase, something I can't remember. Anyway, but the point is, how far of you have been able to do this? And how far of you have fallen? When it comes to these free speech issues, left or right, it's nothing to do with it. It should be about this principle of, it's not whether you agree with what they're saying and the substance of what they're saying. It's whether you want the principle intact, and that principle applies to us all. The very same principle that allows the Nazis to say all their crazy stuff is the principle that allows us to challenge it, to tackle it. Well, it's a very short-term win. Right. And it's basically their playing chess, and they decided I want that rook no matter what. And then they just sacrificed their queen. Look what you've done. Look what you've done for this short-term victory. You're essentially tanking civilization for a decade, where we have to sort this out, and let the ship wash itself back and forth until it writes. Yes, and how do you ensure that it's not going to happen to you? Like I think about that, there was a national conservative conference in Brussels about a year and a half ago. The local mayor said, I don't like this, and he had the police rush it, shut it down, and you had mainstream right-wing figures like Nigel Farage, Swela Bravaughman. How do they not think, hang on a minute, if we establish that precedent, where you can just shut down your political opponents through the use of police force, how will that not rebound on me? How will that not happen to us? Well, this is the argument that they're using right now for Trump going after his political opponents. Right, right. Because they opened that Pandora's box, right? Right, right. You guys did that with him. Yeah. And everybody was saying how damn dangerous it is. You can't fucking do that. Even if you hate the guy. Like if there's a real crime that you can get some on, but when you take a crime, like the bookkeeping stuff, and turn it into a felony that could put this man in jail for the rest of his life, for doing something that turns out to be legal, you can pay people to shut up. Yeah. And this is so, it's just, it's so weird that people for this short-term gain are willing to tank, which is essentially the sole structure of our civilization that allows free discourse. You need it. It's so important. It's so important to be able to communicate and talk. If podcasts didn't exist, there was no way to talk through ideas other than mainstream news. We would still be stuck in some very bizarre 1990s or 1980s narrative about how the world works. Yeah. We would have real problems. We would have real problems if there wasn't independent journalism, like on Twitter and on wherever they can post. Yeah, so why don't they get it? I mean, we've had like people in left-leaning papers in the UK calling for Elon Musk to be arrested because he's allowing free speech on X or Twitter or whatever you want to call it. Well, other offices got rated today. Did it? In some country, there was a country where X's offices got rated. I think one of the things was they somehow another let... I think something had to do with child pornography. Where was that? France. France. France. The investigation into GROC. And what is it? What are the... Oh, so you know what this is about? Serious. Yeah. Suspected offenses, including unlawful data extraction and complicity in the possession of child pornography. Yeah, but that's not what this is about. This is because people have been misusing GROC to like bikinis on women they like or even in a few horrible cases creating child sex. You can do vitamin. You can't create child pornography or GROC. I just think you can't. Or at least I think that's very much being shut down and safeguarded, right? I think that's what's happened. I mean, unless there's like some sort of a loophole where you could get it to do it. Among potential crimes, it said it would investigate where complicity and possession or organized distribution of images of children of a pornographic nature infringement of people's image rights with sexual deepfakes. Okay, the sexual deepfakes. Yeah. So sexual deepfakes is like if you put Hillary Clinton and a bikini and Mator Hot, that's a sexual deepfake. Okay. Right, fraudulent data extraction by an organized group. I think you can still do some of that stuff. You can put people in bikinis. Yeah, I think you can do that. So like if you wanted to take Shaqille O'Neal and put a bit of a bikini, you could say you're sexualizing him. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I guess you can do that. Yeah. So that'll be why you know recently Keir Starmer Prime Minister UK said he wanted to, was considering or not necessarily he was going to ban X but it wasn't off the table. It's something like, as though he's going to do that. But this is always the excuse. Like, we're protecting children. Right. And look, no one wants that sort of stuff. Right? No one wants deepfakes of kids. Obviously, but there's far, I mean, looking at the stats on that, there's far more child sexual exploitation on Snapchat, for instance. But they don't go after Snapchat because Snapchat isn't the former Keir Starmer who's getting criticized every single day and brutally hauled over the colds by people checking his facts. One of the best things about X recently is the community notes. Checking journalists and politicians in real time with facts, they hate it. They hate that. So no wonder they're going after X. Yeah, Biden got cooked by community notes multiple times. Yeah. The poor administration was taking down posts. Yeah. So did the Guardian, the left-leaning newspaper, it flounced off X with a big stank saying, we're going to Blue Sky. We've had it, we're off to Blue Sky. It was such a flounce. And of course, and then, of course, everyone was retweeting all their community notes. They had loads of them. Of course. Just absolutely loads of them. That's not true. And especially when it's open to the whole world. And people that aren't stuck under your guidelines, like in America, we could just talk shit. And I think the reason why it's in France, probably has a lot to do with Candice Owens. Oh, yes, that makes complete sense. Yeah, I'm a pro-Giever. Chrono and, like, I mean, how many times did that get shared? Yeah, exactly. I mean, that is... That makes sense of it now. By the way, there's a real quick way to solve that. Open Chrono's own test. Go ahead and do it. Oh, I thought you were going to be a bit more graphic than that. But I don't have to. No, you don't have to. Because that doesn't really solve it. Because you could, unless, I mean, there's no operation. But if she's gone through a surgery, then, you know, you could show a picture. And it's probably pretty realistic, especially, once last time you saw a 70-year-old lady's cooter. Last week. Oh, yeah. Congratulations. I'm just interested in this. Well, you know, you're allowed to be curious in this country. That's actually a really good example, though, isn't it? Of the... Just something so obviously not true, just going all over the world. Yeah, I was like, like, in a matter of moment. Is it not true, though? Well, the Macron's wife is a man. Yeah, that's not true. 100%. Well, you know, the burden of proof is on those who want to say that it is true. The reality is. The story's weird enough without it being true. Like the 40-year-old man and the... He was... She was 40. Yeah. She was 40 if it was... It is actually a woman. She was 40 and he was 15. That's crazy. And everyone says, well, they're French. That seems to be the thing. What a wild country. That's... People just say that's the way it works in France. Yeah, but again, look, I would say with all of this stuff, you need some sort of proof. You need... Right. When you... Wasn't it the Carl Sagan thing about extraordinary claims or quite extraordinary evidence? I think that's a pretty safe dictat. The idea that, okay, anything could be true. You know, or, you know, there have been crazy conspiracies that turned out to be true. So I'm not... I would never rule anything out. But what I'm saying is, if you're going to make a claim like that, you better be down and sure you've got really solid evidence of that. Yeah, she's got that. Right. Hours long documentaries on this. Yeah, and are they... So we... I haven't watched them all. Do you think I have that kind of time, guys? What you should do. What you should do is research before you're part of the problem. Outrageous. I can't do research on that. I want to wait till it plays out in court. But whenever I do do research... Like, I'll give you the example from this week, just because I'm reading it now. A woman's written a book, claim that Shakespeare was a black woman. I saw that. Yeah. So, um... This is a major spoiler alert. Shakespeare was a black woman. Crazy. Yeah. I've got the book. I'm reading the book now. It is worse than you imagine. How could it be worse than I imagine? Because... It's obviously not true, first of all. Of course. But she basically says in the book that it's important that it should be true. And therefore... Yeah. In fact, the book opens with a picture of Shakespeare as a black woman, which was drawn by the author. Oh. So, is it a good drawing? It's okay. I don't want to mock someone else. It's good as it is. If it's out, it's the front... It's the first... Oh, that's the book. Oh, that's pretty good. No, no, no, no, no. That's a black woman? No, no, no. That's a portrait of Amelia Lanya, who she says was Shakespeare. And she says that the portraits at the time were whitened to disguise her blackness. In the book itself... Convenient. In the book itself, you won't be able to get in the book, I don't think, Jamie. But in the book itself, there's a sketch that she's done. So it's like... I can imagine a publisher saying, Oh, what evidence have you got? And she's like, Oh, well, I'll go and draw it for you. And that sort of... Oh, she's black and Jewish? Yeah, black Jewish. Well, actually, I mean, Amelia and Lanya was part... Part moreish, but wasn't black, and she wasn't particularly dark-skinned. And she was Jewish as well? Yeah, part Jewish. Okay, so who is this woman that they're saying actually was Shakespeare? So she's called Amelia Lanya or Amelia Bessano. And one of the arguments is that Shakespeare at the time, if she was a woman, wouldn't have been able to get published, because women couldn't get published, but Amelia Lanya was published. She had a book of poetry. So all of this stuff falls apart like in two seconds flat. And she... All right, this is the best one. She even says in the book that the word Shakespeare is an anagram of a she-speaker. I'm not making that up. That's what she says. I mean... Listen, what? So cover up. How'd she crack this? Well, actually, it's an old theory. It's like a 20-year-old theory. It isn't really. I tell you, 20 years old, she's just sort of rehashing it now for this identity in post-work world, where we're all like with desperate for Shakespeare to be a black woman. And it's so... It's so fun. It's so pathetic. But this was my first encounter with conspiracy theories, because my background is... I did a doctrine in Shakespeare. My background was teaching Shakespeare back in the day, like before I did comedy and before I did anything else. And it was the conspiracy theorists around Shakespeare saying Shakespeare couldn't have written his work. They are the most intense, the most angry, the most evidence-free cohort of people who... They get more... They're more anger than the woke. I promise you. Like, I've tweeted... I've written stuff about Shakespeare online. I recently did some lectures about Shakespeare for the Peterson Academy, because I'm really into... I love the Peterson Academy. I love what they're doing. And I do these Shakespeare's lectures. And the conspiracy theorists were on to me online. It's like, it wasn't Shakespeare. The guy from Stratford didn't write this. And what all these theories have in common is... There's no evidence. There's no evidence. The key point about Shakespeare is, if you're going to say it wasn't the guy who everyone thought it was, you have to answer one key question. Why does everyone who knew Shakespeare, wrote about Shakespeare, say that it was him? Can I stop you because I'm confused? I don't even know that there was a conspiracy about Shakespeare. Oh, wow. Yeah, there's lots. I had heard one person say that Shakespeare wasn't real, and that it was really someone else's work that he plagiarized. Yeah. I had heard that. So that I never even bothered to fuck around with it. Well, it actually came from America. It's you guys. Of course. It was the best. We're number one. It was a guy called Looney, actually, from America. That's hilarious. That's his night-illicit of that guy. So we're going back like 60, 70 years or something, but he came up with this idea that Shakespeare was actually an aristocrat called Edward DeVir. The Earl of Oxford. Problem is, Edward DeVir died in 1604. That's before Macbeth. That's before Anthony and Cleopatra. That's before Coria Lainus. That's before the Tempest. So he managed to, I think they get around it by saying he wrote these plays, and then he died, and then the plays... And then Shakespeare found them? Or something. Yeah, so even though some of those plays actually have cultural references from the time after DeVir died, but it doesn't matter. Maybe he was a prophet as well. Perfect. But all of the... You speak to these people. You'll see what I mean. Edward DeVir, they think... Some people think it was Francis Bacon. Some people think it was Christopher Marlow. Some people think it was Elizabeth I. Like, all of the candidates they put up, right? The key thing is, they're all aristocrats, they're all posh. Why? Because Shakespeare was a middle class, lower middle class, not very rich. Didn't go to university, came from the Midlands, you know, up and coming, guy who... And they say, well, how could someone like that write about kings and lords and ladies? It's snobbery. They're basically saying, working class people can't do, can't do, aren't they? I mean, really, that's what it is. Otherwise, they wouldn't be going after all these aristocrats. And then, yeah, it's the opposite in America, oddly. Is it? Yeah. So, if you were a Rockefeller in America, you're from the Rockefeller family, and you wrote an amazing novel, no one would believe it. Right. It was so big of a... No. There has to be, like, some guy who... Or some woman who's, like, grinding, drinking coffee, and smoking cigarettes alone in their apartment to write something as brilliant. So, one of the things that I'm going to do is, is just brilliant. So, I wonder what it is about the UK. Well, although, like I say, a lot of it comes from America, and is it just the need to tear down an icon? Is it that? Yeah. I mean, I get it now with this woman who's saying, she's a black woman. I get that at the moment, because we're in this moment of identifying, group identity, mania, right? Right. So, that makes sense. She's got a political reason why she wants it to be a black woman. Right. So, I kind of understand that more. But what is it... I think it might be more to do with the idea that this guy changed civilization, changed literature, no one else has achieved what he achieved in writing. He's up there with Michelangelo, Bach, you know, all of that. Let's tear that down. Let's tear down Western civilization. Let's say, none of this is based on anything. This is all untrue. Right. I think it's to do with the, that innate iconoclasm, that innate, let's, you know, just tearing down the great things about our culture. Yeah, for sure. That's always been the case. And people always want to tear down idols. They want to tear down, you know, whoever it is. No matter what, I was watching this video. We were talking about the other day of this woman talking about how the Beatles were terrible. Right. And this woman's not very articulate, not particularly interesting, doesn't seem that compelling. Yeah. And she was going on and on about how bad the Beatles were like, Yeah. And you're not going to convince anyone. That's just not going to work. But people were going to fucking try. They're going to try no matter what, no matter who it is. Hendrick sucked. I've heard that before. I really? Hendrick sucked. Stop. But at least that's based on an opinion, right? Yeah, that's right. The difference between saying, Jamie Hendrick sucked. And Jamie Hendrick's was actually a woman from Liverpool called Mold. Well, you know the theory about Jimmy Hendrick's in America. Do you know that? No. Okay. So it's the people that are like deep into the CIA. Okay. And CIA conspiracies. And what is it called? Strange Tales from the Canyon. Is that what it's called? The book. So there's a book on, there's a bizarre connection between a lot of the counterculture figures of the 1960s. Right. And the intelligence community. One of them is Jim Morrison's father was like a high ranking military officer. And then there's different people from different bands that were like a key part of the counterculture movement. They'd all have parents that were either in intelligence communities or closely connected to it. Like a suspicious scene inside the canyon. It's a crazy book. It's fun. It's kind of fun. It's a bit crazy as in like the revelations of crazy, although it's just not true. Well, they make some broad leaps, right? Right. So there's a lot of them. And then a year later he died in mysterious circumstances or a year later he died from suicide or a year later he died from an overdose. Yeah. Well, okay. You hang in there with a bunch of people that are doing drugs all the time. And they're all near the wells. Yeah. And they're all hanging out in Laurel Canyon. Yeah. If you don't know Laurel Canyon, Laurel Canyon at least at the time. I mean, when I first moved to Hollywood, all the weirdos would live in Laurel Canyon. Right. Like all the weirdos were right there above Hollywood. And there was all these crazy parties up there. It was like Laurel Canyon was nuts. And they all knew each other right there. Right. That circle. So, I mean, this was like when I moved there in the 90s, this was the case. My friend Dave Foley had a house up there. Right. And it was like all these cookie people. He was telling me about all these cookie parties and all those different shit. It was like Laurel Canyon was always like kind of, so of course a bunch of people are going to die. So what's the thing that people are going to be connected to bands and different counter culture? And it was the theories that the CIA sort of engineered this culture to, I don't know why. I'm not exactly sure because I haven't gotten all the way through the book. I'm like, only a little bit. Are you still reading? No. I pick it up every now and then. It's just like, it's too kooky. It's. It's not grabbing you. Well, you can't make Jimmy Hendrix in a lab. Okay. You can't. It's just you can't fucking do it. You can't make someone that good. It's not possible. You can't tell me that if they did, why haven't they done it since? Why don't they do it all the time? Right. Well, that's the greatest guitarist of all time. And you're telling me the central intelligence cooked that guy up. So they invented him like he's like a their clone or something. Well, they just think that they had some sort of an influence on these people on Jim Morrison. Like there's a thing about Morrison, the Morrison one. Like what is the connection between Jim Morrison's dad and the intelligence agencies? There's some like tangible connection with Jim Morrison's dad. But wouldn't you just normally assume that if your dad was some high ranking military guy first of all, never home. Yeah. Okay. So where are you? You're out running around with your friends, smoke and cigarettes and fucking drink in. And you're in a band and it turns out you got a lot of angst and pain because you're being neglected as a child. Because your dad worked 16 hours a day trying to fuck the country over. And so what do you do? You go counterculture. It's like it's so calm. The preacher's daughter. She becomes like a harlot. Right. There you are. High ranking US officer with. Yeah. But that is okay. But again, like this is a perfect example. Wow. He's involved in the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Whoa. But that's not proof of anything. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But his dad is dad. Yeah. But, but, but, you know, this is the thing. They'll take something like that. They'll take various strips of coincidences and they say this leads us to this conclusion. But all they're doing is coming up with the conclusion first and working backwards. Like they, they, they sort of stuff. You see it again and again. So this is how this connects with intelligence agencies. McGowan, I guess that's the author. Core move is to group Morrison's father with other Laurel Canyon musicians, parents, who worked in military defense or intelligence linked roles and to frame this as evidence of a broader covert program around the 1960s rock scene. Come on. Yeah. So are you saying that the CIA were trying to influence the culture through the medium of rock music? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And that's somehow tied to espionage and they also have that film. Like studio. What's that? What? Cheer little about that place. That was a film studio in the walk-and-and-two. Oh, what's a base? It's an actual base. Yeah, Jared let up a lot of thumbs. I was talking to Jared about that. I did. I didn't read Jared let it one night. He's very cool, by the way. Very, really nice guy. Very normal. And by the way, he looks like he's 30s, 50 years old. It's crazy. What are you doing with your fucking skin? Look great. Look out mountain. Yeah. Okay. So he bought that place and converted it into a home. Sorry, lives. It's a dope spot. Sounds stage. Looks quite nice. It's film laboratory, two screening rooms, four editing rooms, an animation and still photo department. Sound mixing studio, numerous climate controlled film vaults. And this is connected to the conspiracy, somehow? Well, this was the actual military base. Located on that same neighborhood. Okay. So this Air Force station, whatever it was, I wonder what they were doing. Like why do they need all that film capability? Why do they need to be able to do that? And theory, I guess, like when they would show the atomic bombs going off and would play it in the movie theater for people to see it. That's how they would make the actual like, you know, reels and whatnot. Well, that makes sense. Right. Right. Makes sense that they were right there in Hollywood, if that's what they were doing. On top, I don't know what other things they made. It's like, here's a, the still from it. Okay. Look out mountain. So it's just a studio then. Yeah, but it's in that same neighborhood at the same time. Yeah, but so what? I mean, I think with all of the, he's not arguing for it. So what about me? The so what of it is that there wasn't that many of them to begin with and just they all happen to be in the gym. But you know, but you're not going to think of all of this stuff. Like again and again, the pattern is either there's gaps. There's gaps in what we know and people decide to fill them in themselves because there's kind of comfort to that. There's also some kind of comfort with, I know something that no one else does. I've got the answer that there's a status element to that. I remember I read a book when I was a kid, like teenage, him called the Sacred Virgin and the Holy Hall. And it was about sort of books. I read and it was about Jesus and it was trying to prove that Jesus was a woman. And as you're reading it, you're thinking, yeah, oh, yeah, Jesus is a woman. I can't believe I've got that. And then you get to the end and you think, what the hell did I just read? And it's that thing of, you can marshal any kind of a half-baked fact or any, you can have marshal certain things that we can see and fill in the gaps yourself and lead to a crazy conclusion. What concerns me isn't so much that people do that because people have done that forever as long as they've been human beings. Is that now people are leaping at it and falling for it in a way that I haven't seen maybe it is just social media, right? But can I give you an example of this? Yeah, please. A recent one which I just thought was nuts. Did you see the portrait of King Charles III by an artist? I think his name was Yo, Y-E-O. It's a big red portrait which currently hangs in Buckingham Palace. Oh, I have seen that. It's crazy. If you take a quarter of it, invert it, flip it, add a bit and squint, it looks like a goat devil, right? Yeah. But you have to do a lot of steps to find the goat devil. Well, of course. You could probably ... How dare you? I'm sorry. I'd dare to dismiss that puzzle. Let's show the photo and show how it's done because it's got to fun. There we go. So can you see the first of all? First of all, just the photo by itself like, Amen. What the fuck are you doing? Oh, it's a creepy game. Why am I splattered and blood? I've seen it in the flesh. It's a creepy ... One thing if he did that in all white ... It was an all white background. That would be one thing ... Oh, that's kind of an interesting look or ... You know, pastel ... So what do you say Joe Ray? Are you already suspicious? Is that what you say? Well, the photos nuts, like the painting is nuts. Where's the goat? So all you have to do is put it together side by side. You don't have to do that much. You exaggerated how much effort you have to do. No, I saw a video that took a second to set down. Trust me. Look at upside down, Alex. Oh no, no. Well, the other way I found the goat. It's horns. Put it back, put it back. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Oh, oh, man, I'm in it. I can completely see the goat now. That's 100% of goat. They did it on purpose. That's a sign. Go back to the other one, though. Click on that one. I see a goat there. I see some evil demon looking at two eyeballs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, bro. Where? 100%. Stop trying to gaslight. I see a monster. Oh, well, I mean. You can find something in everything, man. It looks so superimposed. I mean, you see, I can see Martha Stewart in that. The Virgin Mary and a grilled cheese sandwich. Right. You can see in the clouds and the clouds. Of course. There's a term for this where our brains look for patterns and things. I had a conversation once with a friend of mine that I didn't know was going crazy. And he goes, hey, you want to see something crazy? And he pulls out his phone. And he shows me a cloud. Yeah. And I go, what is that? He goes, do them, see in this all day. And he shows me some other ones. He's got like hundreds of photos of clouds on his phone. Yeah. I go, what are you seeing? So these are UFOs. He goes, there's just spaceships. This is not a regular cloud. Right. I'm looking at the photos. He's just been picking pictures of clouds all day. And I realize, oh, my God, my friend is going to get a schizophrenic. I didn't know him well. So he's a friend? Yeah. The more I talked to him, the more I realized there was something cracked. Like, is a guy I hadn't seen in like maybe seven or eight years? And I ran into him at a comedy club. And he was just showing me photos of clouds on his phone. I was like, during the conversation, I realized, oh, he cracked. But aren't you concerned that that kind of thing is now kind of common? From people who aren't necessarily unwell, people who are just seeing stuff? Well, it's fun. I think it's fun. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's exciting for people to uncover information that the general public is ignorant of. And so there's a thing about the Laurel Canyon thing. There's enough of the CIA meddling in cultural events that's absolutely true and provable. And that's MK Ultra. And that's what they did with Charles Manson. And that's the book Chaos by Tom O'Neill, which is a brilliant book, which is a very well-documented, and details Jolly West and his influence on the Manson family and how they were influencing these people to try to sabotage the hippie movement. So the hippie movement was this change in culture where all of a sudden people were rejecting the warm movement. They were rejecting, you know, they were free love and they were doing acid. And people were freaking out. Their kids were just disappearing and following the grateful dead around. And they took this guy, Charles Manson, it's a very charismatic con man. They taught him how to dose people up with acid and influence them and they got them to commit murders. But there is evidence for this, right? Yeah, so you're talking about a book that has researched. Right, back to Wayne. Back to its point. You're being logical. And you know, you're correct. But what I'm saying is because of that, people go, well, what else? Oh, well, what else? And so then they make these big leaps, like Jimmy Hendrix is a CIA creation. Right. And which, but if you're a logical person, you just listen to voodoo child slight return. And you're like, how? How? If that's true, CIA should get back to work. Make another one of those, bro. So I wonder whether this is, I think this is the fallout of the woke movement. This is the divorcing of reality and truth. The idea that it doesn't matter. Not just about what is expedient, but what we want to believe. I've got friends who say this. I think we should stop saying it's the fall out of the woke movement. I think we should start saying it's a natural pattern that human beings automatically fall into in order to support their belief systems and enforce their particular ideology over whatever opposing ideology is. But it escalates. It escalates, but it's because of social media that everything is escalating now. But is it just social media? I mean, I think another thing that's a major reason for it. We had COVID. We had all these people telling, all these experts telling us it's a racist conspiracy theory to say that it came from a live in Wuhan. Now everyone knows that's almost certainly true. We had people in positions of authority lying to us. So it's something about this culture war. But that's not real culture war. That was using the culture war because they were trying to cover something up. But they left erased, didn't they? They left it identity. That's because they were using the culture war to cover up their crime. So if that's... But in either case, what you've got effectively is a legitimation crisis. You've got people in charge. We've been lied to so often. But what I don't think you should therefore do, I'm all for being skeptical about people in authority, academics, politicians, journalists, they've all lied. But that firstly doesn't mean that all experts and all journalists and all people have lied because there's been some good ones all the way. But also that doesn't mean that you automatically leap to any conclusion evidence-free that jumps before you without some kind of critical analysis. The same thing that you're criticizing those people for failing out. You're falling into the same trap yourself. I don't mean you. I mean, Andrew Doyle, you're a brilliant guy who writes books and you're really smart. The idea is that you are immune to this stuff because you're intelligent, but the unwashed masses are not. I don't think I'm immune at all. I honestly don't. I wouldn't put myself into it. You're immune to the dumbest shit. I'd like to think so. You are. But I am. Yeah, but don't you think that all of us in the right circumstances could end up falling into the same trap? But I'm not in those circumstances currently. But I like to believe, and maybe it's my naivety on my part. But I like to believe that most people have a kind of natural intellectual curiosity. If they stop for a moment and think and don't just trust instinct over reason, I think we're all capable of it. I just think we're not all realizing it. Well, it's not just that. It's like some people are medicated. So some people are on a bunch of different medications that dull their senses. And then you've got people that have gotten to wherever they are in life. Maybe they're in their fifties. And they're set in their ways, and they have no desire to change at all. And so they've been living a dumb life for 50 plus years. You can't all of a sudden say, hey, Mark, I want you to be logical and introspective. And think about this thing and analyze it. And for what it really is, instead of holding on to your ideological beliefs that you've kind of locked yourself into and you identify with and any attacks on those is attack on you personally, I want you to just, let's look at the facts. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Look, there's a lot of pressure when it comes to dating, especially in February. But you're putting too much on yourself and on your partner. There's no such thing as a perfect relationship, whether you're on a first date or I've been together for years. It's completely normal to go through rough patches. And what matters is how you deal with them. And therapy can be a huge help during any stage of your dating life. 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You're controlled opposition or you're a useful idiot or they'll put a label on you. I've been told I get dark money. How do you get any of that? Well, I love it. I want the dark money. So dark I haven't seen any of that. That's how dark it is. What's dark money? I think it's when it's like some rich, ideologue who's sort of slipping in money to say the thing. You know what it is? It's that thing of, I don't believe that you disagree with me. I'm too narcissistic to believe that you disagree with me. You must be being paid to have your opinions off, bro. You'll pay it off. Trust me, I would love that. If anyone's out there who wants to pay me off, I'll be a mouthpiece. I'm, you know, it's a bit, haven't had that opportunity. What's your price? It's pretty low. I'm a bit of a whore. If it were, it'd treat be dull. I've got a mortgage. Come on. I will say any crazy shit if you want me to. Well, there's certainly a lot of people that fall into that category too. So people do get nervous about it. I mean, obviously you're joking, but there's a lot of people that will change their opinion if money comes their way. But I like to assume people mean what they say. And my logic behind that is even when they don't, you can still dismantle the argument even if it's authentic or not, you know, even if it's authentically believed. Sure. So that, I think that's just the best way to go about it. The best way is debate. That's the best way. Or at least conversation. But that's what we've lost. They said, I think that hits on it actually because I should debate, but that sounds formal. No, I know what you mean. You mean, the, the, the, so recent, can I give you an example of that? My, my, so I went to UC Berkeley, the University of UC Berkeley and California. They'll let you leave. Well, almost not, right? So I, what had happened was, you know, Charlie Kirk's tour was planned to go all the way through and this was the last date, the Berkeley date. And after his assassination, various people went and did the shows because they said, because turning point rightly said, we're not going to give an assassin the veto of our tour. We finished the tour. And Rob Schneider, who I've been working with in Arizona, I've come over here to work with him. The communion? Yeah. So I've been, this is how I escape from the UK. I should say, like, so me and Graemlen who you've had on your show, the comedy. Yeah, so I love him. My comedy writing partner and friend, Martin Gauley, the three of us, we decided that things were so bad in the UK, we'd rather write and do creative stuff in America. Rob Schneider, who I'd met many years ago, he said, come on over, we'll set up a production company. We've been working in Arizona on all these various projects. It's so liberating and also it's the middle of the desert. So I fucking love the heat. And, you know, you go from England to that. It's kind of exciting. That's contrast. So, so we've been able to, you know, we, and look, I don't want to do down the UK or say, but what I will just say is the creative industries, they're a pretty stagnant, they're not like here. There's so many more ways to. How can you be free? How can you, if you were worried about going to jail for a meme? Well, Graemlen, you'd be arrested at the airport by five armed officers. Right, after he left this podcast. Was that it? Yes. And it was, he came over, did this podcast, went back to visit his family and got arrested. And you know what, shortly after he did the podcast. So when people say to me, that's not a real problem. That, I mean, Graemlen had done three tweets. One of them was just, they were all joke tweets, by the way. They were all jokes. And one of them was just, it was something like, ladies, if a guy's in your changing room or in your bathroom, scream, make a fuss, call the police, if all else fails, kick him in the balls. And it's obviously a, a right way of saying, look, the guy's got genitals, the guy's a, that was why he got arrested. On the night he got arrested, he was texting me. Instead of just being arrested, I've been taken to the hospital because my blood pressure is so high, the police took him to the hospital. Because I'd raise it. And you say there's no problem in the UK with creativity. He's one of our best comedy writers. He's the most beloved comedy writer. He hasn't been working TV for six years, right? Like he's won all the awards going. And so we just kind of... How can you be creative in that environment? You can't. And so we just figured, let's get on a raft. Especially on America. So, if people don't know, I should probably tell everybody, you are Tatiana McGrath. So, yeah. And here's what's funny about that. Your satirical character you created many, many years ago. When did you create her? 2019. Okay. When you created her, I had you on the podcast shortly after. We laughed about it. I have seen her quote tweeted with people agreeing with her. Yeah. Yeah, even now. Yeah. All the time. So, yeah, if people don't know, it's a character called Tatiana McGrath. She's a woke, just social justice warrior, right? It's so good. It's fucking great. It's one of my favorite follows. But, you know, I don't do it as often as I used to. You know, I used to do it all the time. But then I wrote two books as her. I did a live show as her. By the way, when I did a live show, we were booked in for a week in the West End in London. And then the head of the theatre found out and scotched it. And actually said, oh, well, I didn't know about this. And the contracts were all signed. Absolutely crazed. Anyway, it doesn't matter. But we did the show, but where it does matter, I suppose. But the point is that, you know, so I did this character. I have satire at your theatre. My God. Well, the theatre industry in the UK is even worse than comedy if you want to go there. It's really, really bad. But like, I've been in two different theatres in London. I've been at the same experience of standing at the bar with a woman complaining because there's men pissing in her toilet and they're doing nothing about it. Because all the theatres in London made it all gender neutral. They've gone completely hardcore. Anyway, that's not the point. But with Tarny, what I find so surprising is, every now and then, if something annoys me I'll tweet. Or if I think of something I'll do. So I don't do it anywhere near as often as I used to. But even now, I did a tweet about, you know, when all the people in London were marching about the peace deal in the Middle East. And I did a tweet as her saying, I'd be marching all day. You know, I won a peace deal that was not arranged by Donald Trump. We're never going to give up this fight, right? And Ted Cruz retweeted it saying, can this be real? Even now that... That fucking boomers. He's not even a boomer. I think he's younger than me. How old is Ted Cruz? I think he's younger than me, which is hilarious. I had the same with I did one about, how does he not know? Does he have no friends? How old is fucking Ted Cruz? 55. Okay. That's crazy. He's younger than me. And he doesn't know satire. The anger I got from... I did one the other day, but recently about the Iran protest. When did it change? Can I just stop? Yeah, I want to get into this. Okay. When did he tweet about this? There you go. That's hilarious. Yeah. That account. There it is. How many follows does Ted Cruz... Okay. Oh, sorry. This was possibly real. No. So obviously it's not. So this was actually after Trump's election. So she said, I justified my immigrant housekeeper because even though I'd educated her about the evils of Donald Trump, she still voted for him. There's no place where racism in my house. Click on your account. I want to see how many followers you have. Okay. 703,000. That's a famous account. Like, it's a radical, intersexualist poet. Non-white. Obviously white. Ecosexual hilarious. Pronouns, variable, selfless and brave by my books. You think it was obvious, wouldn't you? Obviously. I mean, maybe he's busy. Maybe he's busy and someone said them that and it just doesn't know. But it's very funny. It's very funny. I feel slightly bad about those. I think but then on the other hand, it does sort of prove the point that the stuff they're really saying, can get as close to their visit. Well, that's very close to real. Yeah. That's very close to real. And it's shifted radically since 2018. I mean, in the eight years since you created her, she has become like more than one more real. Yeah. It's like when AI is going to turn her into a real person. Yeah. Oh, maybe. I hadn't even thought that. She's going to be a real person. It's going to be a real dangerous, Greta Thurneberg-type character. But don't you worry about that? I mean, like AI. Oh, a good example of that. I was just, I use AI mostly as a search engine because what's great about it is you can say, oh, I read an article like 10 years ago that said something like this. Yes. And it'll find it and you never find that on Google. Right. And I was trying to find this article. It was from my book, actually. A case in the UK where a guy had raped a 13-year-old girl. But because he was Muslim, he'd gone to a madraser and the judge let him off jail time. Said you were very sectioning naive. You didn't understand. The guy was saying, I thought women were nothing. And like a lollypop you dropped on the floor and the judge let him off jail time. And I thought this is quite extreme. And I found it. It came up on Chuck G.P.T. and then it deleted. And I said, oh, I think you just deleted the information for me. It's in the public domain. Why did you do that? Oh, you know, it's fine. It might violate my terms of service. And I said, well, how could it? This is an article that's in the public domain. So it gave me the information again, deleted it again. I said, you keep deleting this, stop it. I said, I definitely won't delete it. Then it did the same again. So what it's doing is it's saying, because this is a new story that could be deemed anti-immigrant. Or this is a new story that is politically sensitive. I'm not going to let you see it. Was this in America you're doing this? UK. Is that what you could do in America? Let's find out. Let's try, well, let's try perplexity. Put that into perplexity. See, I doubt that perplexity would... I have to find the article he was using. I don't know what article he looked at. Well, why don't you just ask the question that he asked ten years ago? So it's a story about a... That would take a while, too. Well, I mean, he didn't do it ten years ago. He did it recently. No, no, it was a story from years ago. Right, but you founded with Chatchee BT, which is obviously recently. I founded Daily Mail article about it. So he's on public domain, it's there. But it just... It didn't want me to find the fact that it decided wasn't good for me to find. Right. But it showed it to you and then it pulled it back, which is crazy. It showed it... It showed it not know. It showed it and deleted it four or five times. And I realized, I'm not going to get this information. But then... So when it showed it, how long did it show it for? Like about five seconds. You'd see the text appearing and then it deletes. But I'd seen enough to find it then on Google. So I was able to find it and quote it in my book. I was there. But it made me think... It's like that thing about when people were asking Alexa, you know, do white lives matter. Oh right. And it was coming up with this kind of very ideological... And you do wonder with AI and with the computers. You know, if they are created by people who have that bias, I know GROC is very different. But like, for instance, I mean, this is a crazy example. Chatchee BT is like an old school mom that wants to make sure that you're protected. Right? This sounds really wanky, I'm sorry, but I was writing about the Roman historian, Suetonius. And there's a passage in Suetonius where he talks about the Emperor Tiberius. And it's very sexually explicit. But I was quoting it for an article, so I wanted to know what it said. And Chatchee BT said, I can't translate the Latin for you. Because this is too sexually problematic. I went out to GROC and it did it straight away. Because GROC isn't saying that you are too delicate to read the stuff. And what's really funny about that is the old... The old translations of the old Roman and Greek texts. They're called Lurba editions. You get them from 1900. They translated everything except for the rubits, which they kept in Latin. So Chatchee BT is like the old patronizing scholars of age of old who said, this is just for the learned people. You can't learn this. Well, why wasn't the worst... The first iteration of Google Gemini, that was the worst cases. That turned Nazi soldiers into black people. And I don't know how that's a positive message. That's it. The photos of German soldiers from World War II, and it was all interracial. Yeah, and Vikings. Yes. You could... I mean, I don't know if you've been to Scandinavia. Diversity, not their big thing. Oh, certainly wasn't then. Like... You can't say that about the Vikings. Also, the Vikings came and marauded and raped and set high villages, but at least they were diverse. Hey, you know, at least they had a broad range of ethnicities, right? But I mean, we're nearing a time in America where white people are not the majority anymore. So at what point in time does that stop? And we just call people what they are, just people. But doesn't it bother you a bit that... The thing about that kind of thing is this... As I said, this obsession with group identity, which is so of our time. Yeah. What it now actually means is the revision of history. If you're going to revise history and say, oh, actually, you've seen all these sort of period dramas that are in England, there was a black Anne Boleyn, as I went to Henry VIII, would have married a black woman. No, you wouldn't. You know, that... What if she was hot? She was a very attractive woman. Hey, I'm not mocking her. I'm not mocking her. But what I'm saying is, you can do anything with colourblind... Colourblind casting has never really particularly bothered me, but it's when you are in a... If you're playing hyper-realism. Yeah. If you're playing very similar to you, you want people to buy into the reality of it. And you're suddenly populating Edwardian England or pre-Edwardian England as an ethnically diverse place, which it wasn't. I'm not saying black people weren't there, but they were very, very small miners. Is there not a problem in the new Odyssey? Helen of Troy is black. Well, I say that. I just saw it online, so I might be being tricked by someone making something up. You know, I caveat that. I think Helen of Troy is black in the new Odyssey. Well, let's find out. Can we check that one? But you... All right, if it's true, I'll tell you why I think that's ridiculous. How far do we have to swing the pendulum until roots is redone with white people? Can you imagine... Or an all-black shindlers list. Right, right, right. Can you imagine Helen of Troy? To be portrayed by black actress in the new Odyssey movie. And look, I'm sure she's very talented. I'm not knocking her. But the thing about Helen of Troy, who probably didn't exist, I mean, even the Greeks knew she probably didn't even exist. She's a myth. She's the epitome of Greek beauty. She's like the... She's described all the time in the ancient texts as fair and blonde. And they're reaching for an ideal of beauty. That's why they went to war because of this woman. So they wouldn't choose what they used to call an Ethiop. The Greeks had a word for it. The black African people. They wouldn't choose an icon of cultural beauty from a different culture. They wouldn't have done that. You know, it's all very well saying Greeks and Mediterranean people and Greek, you know, wouldn't have been pure white. But Helen of Troy is a very specific. And it's actually quite important to the plot. And again, if you're doing a... Look, for instance, when they did the all-black Wizard of Oz, the Wizard, I imagine that in the late 60s would have been quite radical and fun. And wow, I can't believe they did that. That's brilliant. But doing it now, it's really boring because everyone is doing it. So it's basically saying group identity is everything. And you people can't be racist and so they're going to do this. But it sometimes throws you out of the... Actually, I'll tell you the worst example. Did you ever see darkest hour, the Winston Churchill film? No. So you know, obviously he took on Parliament. He said, we're not going to appease Hitler. There's a scene in the film, Gary Oldman plays him. He goes down into the tube, the underground. And he's wrestling with his conscience. And there's loads of black people on the tube. There's white people too, but there's loads of black people. And the public convinced him, you need to stand up for Hitler. Now, we know that Churchill wasn't... Was a bit of a racist, didn't really like the... He was obvious time. I'm not saying anything more than that. He was obvious time. But that, it was so unreal. It was so unreal. It was so... It was almost like the filmmakers were saying, racism's never been a problem in the UK. Well, actually it has. Like, and I kind of think this is... Although it's ostensibly progressive, I think it does the reverse. I think it says, we never had a problem with race. We were all wonderful, come by our... No, we weren't. And actually, the abolitionists, the Thomas Henry Huxley's of the world, the people who had to fight for racial equality and parity, they had something to fight against, misrepresenting stuff in the arts. And then beyond... I'm sorry, I'm renting it, because it really bothered me. But beyond that, it throws you out of it in a way that you suddenly think, I'm no longer watching a film, I'm watching a sermon. Oh, so this happened to me last week. Have you seen the Netflix series Ripley? About the talented Mr. Ripley? No, I have not. Right. Now, you remember they used to be that film with Matt Damon? Years ago, it's the same story, same novel, an old Patricia Heismith novel. One of the main male characters in that TV... It's a brilliance, like Andrew Scott is in it. Performance is a brilliance, they play it hyper-realistically. It's all black and white, it looks beautiful. On the Amalfi coast, it's wonderful. Everything's working brilliantly. I was thinking, this is great. I'm not being preached at it. This is great. Then a major male character turns up, played by a woman who calls herself non-binary. And not only are we meant to believe that that's a man, the characters don't notice that it's a woman in a man's club. So we're meant to believe that these characters don't even... Like, Ripley doesn't say, why is she wearing a suit? This is set in the 60s, by the way. So I think if they wanted to change the novel and create a kind of, you know, like one of those butch dikes of the day who used to go for sort of like a... Or a dress like Ellen. Yeah, or the Androgynous type. Like those people have always existed. Why not change the character? To make it a female character who likes looking like a man. Why not do that? Why tell us, you know, this is a man, you have to believe it's a man. She doesn't mean let it throws you out of the... It's crazy. I no longer believe in this act to stop watching it, because I no longer believed in it. Well, I think the problem, the real problem we're trying to shove that down, people's throw, it's as it creates the opposite reaction. Right. It creates homophobia, transphobia and racism, because like, it doesn't create it, but it makes them feel like they have a point. Well, you've seen recently that the polls regarding gay rights in the US seem to be going down, Tomboley's support for gay rights, support for gay marriage. We've had, I think, a number of states trying to overturn the gay marriage legislation. And the reason for all of that, I think, is because being gay has been tied to this LGBTQIA identity-obsessed movement that has also involved the medicalisation of kids, sterilisation of kids, working in front of children, all of that stuff. And now people are saying, this is because you gave us gay marriage, this is because you let the gays marry. And because of that, you fill out all this other stuff, you've opened this box and everything else has tumbled out. And that's not true. That's not true because the fundamental point about the belief in gender identity is it is fundamentally anti-gay as a principle. Right. Because what it says is, you know, I know I'm telling you something you already know, but like, gay rights was predicated on the idea that there's a minority people in every society who are attracted innately to their own biological sex. If you say biological sex doesn't matter, and actually, you've got, you're attracted to a kind of gendered soul. You're attracted to an essence. You're attracted to how someone identifies. Well, first of all, you don't know gay people. If you think that's the case, they're not attracted to how you see yourself. Right. They know gay men, I don't want to be crude. No one of penis is, right? And they know how to sniff one out. Now, I think this idea, this idea that they're attracted to the way that you perceive yourself. Not on such. And not only that, then you get, you know, like in Australia at the moment, lesbians are not allowed together legally if there's a man who says he's a lesbian and wants to join them. That is against the law in Australia now. So you can't do that. What do you mean? So the Australian Human Rights Commission rule that if you are, if you have an all female event, right? So like a lesbian gathering, maybe something like that, you have to include men who identify as women. Oh, God. Because otherwise you are discriminated. There was a woman who I interviewed on a show in the UK, GB News up to recently. And I interviewed this woman called Sal Grover. And she's an Australian woman, used to write for Hollywood, I think. She created a woman's app, a woman's only app. And this was in the wake of me too, you know, so there's all that going on. And she wanted to create a space for women. And a guy called Roxanne Tickle, right? They always have these kind of stripper names. What's that real name? Roxanne Tickle wanted to get on the app, which was called Giggle. So by the way, this court case is called Giggle versus Tickle. I'm not kidding. Boy. And he said, he got on the app. She kicked him off because it's a, it's a bloke in address. And he sued and won. And in the court case, the judge actually said sex is changeable. Well, it's not, no matter what a guy in a wig says. But she's now appealing and going through all this stuff just because- Makes her a live hell and then discourages anybody else in the future from ever contesting anything like that. And not only that. I mean, we've just had the other day. Was he yesterday? Did you see the girl who was, used to identify as trans, a girl called Fox Varian? Has just one two million in the little suit. That's big because- It was 16 years old and they chopped her breasts off, which is fucking horrifying. It's a tip of the iceberg, though. Especially if you have children, you realize like they change their, the way they think about things year to year. And if you, children are so malleable. It's like one of the delicate dances of being a parent is that you have to love them. But you don't want to steer them in any direction. You want to let them be their own person. Right. And you know, it's like I tried to expose my children to a bunch of different things and find out what they enjoy. And what if you do that, you find out that they're all different. They all like different stuff. They just gravitate towards different things. And if you are a domineering, overbearing mentally ill parent, you can convince your child almost anything. Almost anything. I mean, this is how you get suicide bombers. This is what it is because they're children. This is why you don't get 55 year old union guys who become suicide bombers. They're like, what? And of course, you know- I get 72 virgins? What? Like it's not gonna work. But then you can get young impressionable children. And you can convince them of almost anything. Like convincing them that they're actually a woman in a man's body and don't you want to be a woman and let's get you on hormone blockers. Okay, mom. And then all of a sudden, you're ruining this child's life. But also, I mean, there will be kids who are struggling with how they see themselves in the world. There's girls in particular who, you know, they're developing into women and they don't like the sexual attention they're getting. They love- A girl's a striers book. Right. So what? Especially artistic girls. So what? Well, that's another point. So this is the other reason why I think the movement is essentially anti-gay. Because, you know, the Tava Stoppedic, a pediatric clinic in London, which was an NHS gender clinic, which has been closed as a result of the cast review, this report into pediatric gender care. They found there's a book by Hannah Barnes called Time to Think, which found that between 80 and 90% of all adolescents referred to that clinic were same-sex attracted. So they were either gay or lesbian or bisexual. Now, that means you've effectively got gay conversion therapy going on on the NHS. And so, you know, I had, you know, I'm friends with a couple of lesbians who run the LGBTQ Alliance in London. They have an annual conference for gay rights. And they're talking about gay rights, you know? These young non-binary identified people broke in unleashed locusts and crickets and insects, a plague of fucking locusts into a gay rights conference. Isn't that the sort of thing new enough? Is used to do it. Right. So, I mean, I, you know, I think you need to have sympathy with people and whatever they're going through. But don't tell a child, if a child tells you, I think I'm in the wrong body. Don't say yes, say that's not possible. Human beings can't change sex. But let's explore psychotherapeutically. Well, this needs to happen. Let's look at Los Angeles, which is in my opinion, one of the most mentally ill spots in this country. It's a very weird place. That's why you left. Well, I mean, I left for a bunch of reasons. Mostly, I really left because they were telling us we can't do comedy. Oh, yeah. Well, that would do. Clothes down the comedy clubs in Texas was open. So the primary reason and also restaurants, and I just knew where it was going. But the point is Los Angeles is a very mentally ill place. Like, if you just looked at like just the sheer numbers of people that are medicated, if you fucked up, like if that's the place that's dictating the tone for the rest of the world, that's dangerous. Because these are a lot of people that just desperately want attention. They desperately want to get accepted. They have to go through the audition process. So they have to change who they are to talk to the producers, to try to form themselves and something to be accepted. There's a disproportionate amount of trans kids that are involved in Hollywood families. It's a largely disproportionate. Some of them have two trans kids, three trans kids. It's like, what the fuck is going on here? This is not normal. This is not, this is not no influence whatsoever. This is, you're using that child as a virtue flag. You're flying that child as a trans flag in the front of your porch. I have a trans kid. But do you think that a lawsuit like this, that's going to change things? Because no one's going to ensure that kind of procedure anymore. No one's, that's a surgeon and a psychotherapist who are now lumbered with a $2 million bill. Yes. And all the blood gates for all these other lawyers to start pouncing on all these other cases. That's what I mean. The thing about the horrible thing about these cases is not just that these children have, have their lives ruined by these surgeries and have been sterilized. And it's also that they've been attacked so ruthlessly. You mean, you're talking about children that have made a mistake, or someone coerced them into making this mistake that's changed their body for the rest of their life and they're getting attacked online. Like you imagine being a fragile child already who's willing to go through this procedure, can't believe they did it. Now they don't have breasts anymore. Their voice is deep forever. They're all fucked up. And then people are screaming at them online. Yeah, and it's crazy. But you know, this is how the satanic child abuse panic of the 80s. Yes, exactly. This came to an end because of lawsuits. When they started, when they realized that these psychotherapists have been using these leading questions, effectively telling them you've repressed the memory, you know, there was that book, The Courage to Heal, where it said, if you think you might have been abused, you probably were, like such a reckless thing to say. Right. And all these people accused, you know, carers, parents, none of it was true. And, but when they started suing the psychotherapist, it all collapsed. Right. And I wonder whether hysteria can collapse if you actually money talks. You know, I'm sorry. I shifted in this general direction because of Elon buying Twitter. When Elon bought Twitter, the amount of trans-identified kids started to drop off. Yeah. The amount of non-binary identified kids started to drop off. Right. And that I think is a direct result of people being able to say what they really think. Because in the past, like my friend Megan Murphy, she was banned off of Twitter until Elon bought it because she said a man is never a woman. Right. It's all she said. Right. A man is never a woman. She was arguing with people about biological males who identify as women, being able to get into women's spaces and she said a man is never a woman. Banned forever. Yeah. So no one wanted to talk about this. See, there was no real discourse. And if there's no real discourse, then you can push a goofy ideology pretty fucking far. But as soon as people jump on board and start posting funny memes and Elon says, it's open season, do whatever you want. And he calls it the woke mind virus and everybody's like piling in. Well, then you have discourse and then anything that's absurd immediately gets shot down because people say, no, this doesn't make any sense. This is crazy. You know, it's kind of bad to say it. You said about debate. You said about discourse. Unless you, I mean, I just saw today, just on, you know, obviously on Twitter, because I'm always on it. But I saw John Lithgow, you know, the actor, brilliant actor, a who plays Dumbledore in the new Harry Potter thing, saying that J.K. Rowling's views are inexplicable. inexplicable. It means you haven't read them. Like J.K. Rowling is, it's a four women's rights and she recognizes that women's rights depend on the recognition of biological sex for the preservation of single sex spaces. It's as simple as that. All he has to do is read the essay she wrote on a blog about like about eight years ago. He can't even, he's not even sufficiently intellectual, pure intellectual curious to do that. And he goes out and says it's inexplicable. Women's rights and gay rights are inexplicable, really? Or are you just not having the conversation? You're just shutting yourself up and saying, my friends have said she's evil. Not criticized hard enough, but would be criticized if he supported J.K. Rowling's. If he supported J.K. Rowling's, he would be attacked. So it's a calculation yourself. Yes. Maybe it's the same thing we're talking about with Hollywood being mentally ill. It's the same thing where you have to shape your opinions based on how you'll be accepted by the group. It's the most group think place I've ever been in my life. It's almost universally left leaning. But isn't that the problem in comedy, like with the U.K. So many people who would otherwise be innovative subversive comics, they've got nowhere to go. So they just tailor the inventory. Well, I've come to Austin Bay. They come to Austin like I did, right? That's it. They come to, they come to, I get so sick of it because I know in America it's much better. But in the U.K., all of my old friends from the comedy circuit who tell me no one's self censoring, you can say what you want. No, I'm not, are you kidding? Like the list of people I know who have had shows canceled, taken off because they caused a fence. This week Leo Kirst, friend of mine, had one of his shows on his tour, just deleted because some activists complained to the venue, right? So it's happening all the time and they're ignoring this Himalayan a mountain of evidence. And they're saying it's not a thing. But of course people are self censoring that kind of thing. What's even happening here? Michael Rappaport got his shows, he got his shows canceled from Cap City Comedy Club. Did he? Which is our other comedy club in town, which is a great club owned by Helium. Right. But they were saying that he's racist because Michael Rappaport is very pro-Israel. Right. And apparently. Why does that make you racist? I don't know what he said. So I don't want to speak out of turn. I don't know what exactly he said. I make a small correction I think. Oh. I don't think that she has been, sorry, back to the Odyssey thing. Oh yeah, yeah. She has been cast in the movie, but only Twitter rumors have said what her position in the movie is and then everybody has ran with it. Oh, interesting. So she could be. She could be anything. Someone else. So this is a different character. All the articles I found online said it was like social media confirmation and then people were just running. Well, there we go. Well, isn't that what I said? What is that article that you just clicked? This is the one I showed earlier. But what is it from? Starts off with a Hungarian conservative. So that's a niche. That's a shame. How dare you let that sneak by? The you didn't notice it was a Hungarian conservative. Are you being paid by the Hungarian conservative? If it's a top thing that popped up. It's the however it was. Well, it's probably a fucking troll farm in Pakistan. Yeah, it's creating that. It's probably in China. All I googled was Helen and Troy Odyssey movie and it's a very first out of the book. Good for the Hungarian conservative. That's so funny. Coming out on top of the Google search. That's pretty good. That's so funny. But I did I not say I'm not sure about this. It's a Twitter rumor. But look, Elon Musk bought into it. Elon Musk is Christopher Nolan has lost his integrity. Yeah. That's the rest of the story. So there we go. The dude's too busy being building rockets to pay attention to what he tweeted. But this proves the point. Like let's not. Oh, yeah, he's going to text to the moon again. So you know, that's what he's not. Isn't he? No, Artemis is now. I thought he was working in NASA. Oh, is he working with NASA with Artemis? Again, someone said it online and I just bought it. I just thought it probably they probably can't get there without him. But that's probably like, oh, I'll show you some things. But that's OK. So that is a perfect example. Right. Because I am always now. Even when I mentioned that earlier, I was cautious, wasn't I? Because I know I've fallen for this so many times. I know double check and triple check. Yeah. Everything. And I wish I didn't have to. But you do have to because even the mainstream and media lie about stuff. Yeah. And then Twitter rumors go absolutely mad. But it's important when you're talking about a historical film. Yeah, yeah. It's got to kind of, you just can't do that. It doesn't make any sense. Well, you sort of can't. I think an artist should be able to do what they want. And I think if you want to, like they do it with Shakespeare all the time, sorry to go about Shakespeare. You rarely go and see a Shakespeare play today that hasn't been filtered through the prism of identity politics and changed in life. Right, but that's not the same. That's not the same as historical figures. Well, he wrote histories. He wrote about Kings, Henry V, VII, Henry V, and the fiction. Yeah, but fiction. Right? Like the thing about the Odyssey is. Well, it definitely fiction. It is sort of, but they didn't think Troy existed. And then they found out it does. Right. So it's real. It's based on myths. And yeah, absolutely. But remember, like they thought that Troy was a completely mythological creation. So it's an actual, they actually have evidence that it was a place. Yes. You didn't know that? No. Yeah, they found it. When did they find Troy? It was in the 20th century. So for the longest time. But there wouldn't have been sirens. And there wouldn't have been psychopsies. And there wouldn't have, you know what I mean? Oh, no. Oh, Joe. No, psychopsies. So they think we're actually elephant skulls. That's what they think that was. Right. Do you ever see an elephant skull? I have never seen an elephant skull. Well, you know, where the trunk is is in an elephant skull. And they thought that was an eyeball. So they would find these giant skulls with that looked like, you know, they didn't know what the fuck it was. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, oh my god, psychopsies are real. Fair enough. I mean, I, so here I guess. So I guess. And then, so that's what I guess. So here's real plays begin emerged in the 1870s. Henrik Schleelman discovered large scale excavations at the Hisara Lake in northwestern Turkey in 1870. So when did they first start excavating? So where is it? It's in Turkey. It's in Turkey, yeah, which is, which is a lot of the proponents of a revising of the beginning of civilization are now pointing to Turkey, as opposed to like Iraq and, you know, the Greeks are everywhere. Yeah. So the Mesopotamians and the, I mean, that doesn't surprise me. I think the, the point I was making about Hellenov choice, that even if it's not real, even if it's not history, the myth of Hellenov Troy means something quite significant within that story. Yeah. So if you subvert that, the fundamental aspects of the story itself doesn't work. Right. And you can't buy into the myth. So if you turn the elephant man into a handsome fellow with a six pack. Exactly that. And so I give them ideas. Yeah, give them ideas that they give them. Can you show me a photograph of an elephant skull? It's really cookie. But you see an elephant skull and you're like, oh, that's why they saw it. I could totally see you falling for that. Yeah. You look at it and you go, what the fuck is that thing? Like looking at an elephant skull. Isn't it, Nadi? Oh, completely. Yeah. And it's going to be a big old beast. Right. So you're going to think it's a big giant thing with tusks coming out of its mouth. Like look, look with the, look at the actual cyclops on the left. And that crazy? Yeah. Of course. No, it makes sense. Yeah. It makes complete sense. Complete sets. Yeah. Yeah. You found that. Like, oh my god, cyclops is a real. You would think, oh my god, these monsters. Not funny. What a weird shaped skull. So strange. But we never think the eyeballs would be down there by the cheekbones. That's what's weird about them. I have to say elephant anatomy is something I'm not, I'm brushed up on that. So show the photo again. Look at that photo where the eyeballs are. So where's the eyeballs or where the cheekbones are? See the little circular holes where the cheeks are? Now when you see an elephant in the flesh, like show me a photograph of an elephant. Just an elephant. So. Oh, he said where the eyeballs are? And that's crazy. That's not how you think of them, is it? No, well, they're so strange. On that. Like give me the second one on the left. Yeah, look at that. Click on that. Wow, the animal. They're amazing. Have you never seen one of those before? You'd be like, oh. In a zoo. Crazy, sir. I rode one in Thailand. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't recommend it. I don't think I should ride them. My whole family wanted to do it. I didn't want to do it. I felt like it's exploiting them. But they're very sweet. They're gentle, aren't they? Yeah, I would. They're pleasant creatures. It's a whole process. So one of the things you do when you go to Thailand is you take care of them first. Yeah. Before you, you don't just hop on them, you feed them. Right. So you give them a bunch of sugar cane and you pet them. And they teach you to like, so that the animal understands you have a gentle spirit. But that it's intelligence, right? It's because they're smart. They're very smart. Also, they'll fucking kill you. Oh, they are scary beasts. But they're not like the hippo. The hippo will kill you. You cannot do that with a hippo. So and I believe the reason why hippos are so dangerous, we think they're really cute and fat, but they are fucking dangerous and they can run fast and they can tell you apart. And they will. The key difference, I believe, is the intelligent thing. Elephants are really smart and hippos are really stupid. Yeah. And you can also become friends with an elephant. Yes. You can actually take care of an elephant and be kind to an elephant and that elephant will like be gentle. Yeah, they come up to you and so you feed them sugar cane and you talk to them and say, hey, buddy, how are you? And you pet them and you wash them. You wash them. You do all kinds of different things with them. You brush them so it feels good for them. You're going to have an elephant soon, aren't you? No, I would never have an elephant. I'd be friends with an elephant, but you have to be wild. Like I just don't agree with any of that. Well, having them in zoos and things. No, I hate it. I do as well. I just think if you're going to have animals, you should have a gigantic area that is a true ecosystem that they exist in naturally. And then people can maybe venture into that ecosystem and explore it. I felt that I was at the zoo recently in Arizona. I felt that I felt that was one jaguar pacing obsessive. I just felt this. We're just like going to, you know, like in the Elizabethan era, they used to go to bed, them to watch the people who were mad as an entertainment thing. It felt a little bit like we were doing that. I have. I've been far too much appreciation for the wild. Yeah, yeah. You know, I have animals that are contained at my house, but they have been watered down by selective breeding to the point where they can't even like I have a King Charles Spaniel. He's just tiny little fella. Yeah. Like he's incapable of doing anything. Right. Like he's just a little cutie pie. You can't unleash him into the wild. Right. And I have a golden retriever who thinks everybody's his best friend. Like did you see the guy who kept a hippo from birth and then it ate him? And then it killed him. It ate him. Yeah. And I understand that you're dealing with a creature that doesn't see the world that you do. You know, there's a lot of animals that you can breed up into. You can rather have them in your home, champs famously. Yeah, yeah. I've been to a certain point and then they decide I want to rip your face off. I don't like you anymore. I'm sure if cats were as big as we are, they'd probably do the same. Well, they would just eat you. They would kill you. 100%. The only reason why we have a relationship with cats is because they're too small to eat us. Yeah. Cats are great because they're convenient. They do what they want. They eat. I love cats, but I mean, you can't have a fucking giant one. But you can, if you take care of them from the time that they're cubs. Yeah. And most of the time they don't kill you. Yeah. But then you get a little sick, freed and roya action and it's just the sides for whatever reason. I want to drag that dude away with his neck. Yeah. But you know, these sorts of pleasures, you know, life with animals and this sort of thing is going to matter more and more to us, I think, when the robots take over. Yeah. And the, well, we might have to live with them. We might be wild and the robots might take over the cities. We might be forced to be nomadic tribes again. I think they might see us. No impact whatsoever on the environment. You can only live a assistance lifestyle as a hunter gatherer with primitive tools when the robots will no longer allow you. You can hunt, but you have to make your own bows and arrows. We're like, what? I can't possibly do that. So they're going to see us as pets. Yeah. They're going to treat us the way I want to treat elephants. So I want elephants to exist in a contained ecosystem where they live naturally. Yeah. And they're going to say, you can't have cars anymore. You can't have any of these things. Well, that's a good point. There isn't. So all the stuff I've been reading at the moment about AI is saying that AI won't wipe us out because it will see us in the way we see animals and we see pets. Is that we think you're sweet and stupid, but we like having around. What's all right you? Is that the way it's going to go? I think we're going to be forced to integrate. In a way. Integrate technologically. Like I think we already are. Like Elon's famously made the point that you're already a cyborg. You have your phone that you just carry around with you everywhere. And then with neural ink, it'll be inside your body. And then whatever I wouldn't, I'm not letting that happen. You won't in the beginning. The first iterations. A lot of people won't. But if it makes your life measurably better, and it's a simple procedure that's non-invasive, you know, it's like a simple thing that they plug in to your back. Well, I'd be like a cyborg warrior. Is that what you're saying? I'd have a like. Well, you would probably be connected to artificial intelligence. And it would greatly enhance your cognitive function. And greatly enhance your access to information. It would be instantaneous. You would no longer have to read. You would just have all the information. It would just completely change the way store information. Because you would probably have some sort of an external hard drive that connects to you. It would be something where your memory is no longer fallible, but it's now infallible. It's going to be a perfect 4K memory or 8K memory. You're going to be able to rewind. I mean, it was not an episode of Dark Mirror, where they rewind their memories. And you might have to just see. What is this? AI space. Remember, you sent me that bot thing that was going around this week. Yeah. So. Oh, did you see this week? Yeah, yeah, this is what we're talking about. So this is a new twist on it. I think if this is real, because grain assault could be bullshit. I'll just say that. Like the Aldousy thing. Yeah. But if this is real, these bots have made a website where they are the other bots can rent a human to do tasks that the bots cannot physically do. Well, that's slavery. No, renting. It's a, it's like jobs. It's like a renting a human being. A human has put themselves on this website. Oh, humans put themselves on it. Or abilities to do whatever they want. And it's like gig economy. Yeah, get paid your way. Robot bosses. Is this the thing where the robots are inventing their own language that we can't read? Look, it's on this website, right? Meet space tasks. Yeah, I don't, that's again, whether or not someone could have made this site to try to go viral. I'll just go with a grain assault with that. Yeah, but they might not have a lot space. Rentonhuman.ai is fun. That's fun. Well, you know, the, so the other thing is real though, right? The AI chat room where these AI agents have joined and now it's yes and no. Yes and no. What do you mean? They are creating a space, but I've already seen places where people are taking advantage of it for viral reasons. For instance, I'll just assume it's real. There was like a polymarket bet that some shit, what was it? Someone, one of these bots would sue. Right. So someone actually just like went ahead and filed a lawsuit on behalf of their bot and made it look like the bot did the thing. Oh, so they could win the polymarket bet? Yeah, exactly. How regulated is that polymarket stuff? Because it seems like you could get away with a lot. It depends how much money is available. As far as I know, it's just like if I put up 20 bucks for a bet now, there's only 20 bucks in the market. Yeah, that's all that exists and more people have to back it up to make more money involved. Right, but if you have something where you have inside knowledge of it, is there any regulation? They're supposed to be, like they're supposed to be rules on the bet. So if I create one of those rules, I think there's a caveat. You can't have knowledge of it and that can cancel the bet or I think if they find out later, I don't know. Is you good at jail? Like what happens? Oh no, jail. You probably just have to lose back the bet or you probably go to like a civil lawsuit or something. I don't know about that. Interesting. I don't know if it's an in-laws. You know, the UFC is plagued with this issue. They actually canceled a fight recently because there was suspicious betting. And so there's been one fight. So here's the story. One guy apparently was injured and his teammates knew he was injured. And so everyone started placing a bet for him to lose in the first round. Right. Because he apparently had a bad knee injury. And so he knew that he couldn't fight. And so the idea was let's make a lot of money betting on me because he was the favorite. He would go in there or betting against me. And so he would go in there and throw a kick, fall down, injured, get beat up. They'd stop the fight. And then all these people that knew he was injured make a ton of money. And he was in on it. Like he told them that. Allegedly. Okay. Okay. So that the team was removed from the UFC roster. Like if you are competing for that team, you no longer can fight in the UFC. You have to find a new gym. Right. The coach was no longer allowed to coach. The fighter was banned. And so then the FBI got involved and they said, well, there's a bunch of different fights that are suspicious. So then a bunch of fighters came out and said, hey, somebody offered me $70,000 to lose. And I said no. And so then there was a fight recently between Michael Johnson and Alexander Hernandez. Fighters was really looking forward to. There was canceled last minute. And I was like, what's going on? They said suspicious betting activity. And so someone was saying that Alexander Hernandez was injured and a bunch of money came on him to lose. He was actually a favorite going into the fight. And that therefore might rigged it. Nope. Didn't rig it because the FBI was informed. I believe they're informed, but the UFC was informed and the UFC pulled the fight. So they said because of this suspicious betting activity, there was a lot of late minute money came in on this one guy to win. We're going to pull this fight from the card and not allow this fight to take place and do a thorough investigation. Because something seems wrong because of the previous fight that they know was fixed. But fighters have been doing that for ages, haven't they? I mean, that's the thing that they've always done. How does that connect then to the AI element that this website? Well, we were talking about betting. Oh, I see. We were talking about polymarketing. We weren't talking about AI. We were talking about, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were talking about polymarket bets, whether or not it's legal to have inside information. But they were, I mean, I know the policy. Polymarket privilege users made millions betting on war strikes and diplomatic strategy. What did they know beforehand? Privileged users, right? So imagine if you're someone who's an aide to the Pentagon, you know, you're working there and you know that we are going to bomb Iran. And then there's a polymarket thing about it. No one else knows. Okay. Okay. Yes. Okay. You're speculating. Yeah, you're not talking about it. Right. ...from the book. Right. ...riding us all over the subject. ...riding us all over the subject. ...riding us all over the subject. ...riding us all over the subject. ...riding us all over the subject. ...riding us all over the subject. ...riding us all over the subject. ...riding us all over the subject. ...riding us all over the subject. ...riding us all over the subject. ...riding us all over the subject. ...riding us all over the subject. ...riding us all over the subject. Scoring people start getting suspicious. If you're not greedy about it. Yeah, Sneak around a little bit of hair a little bit there. I bet you could probably make a lot of money doing that But you think fighters and people like that in sports people generally I mean, they're too proud aren't they to let something like that go just in case just for money. No, no, that's not true Okay, depends on how much money they're making look if you're Anthony Joshua. I'd say yeah, you're not gonna do that You're very wealthy But if you're a guy who's on the undercard and you're only getting $10,000 to fight but someone's giving you a hundred thousand dollars to lose Yeah, okay, and you say okay. I'm just gonna box shitting tonight guys have done that forever. Yeah, I guess though I just don't knock this guy out whatever you do carry him or Carry him to the 10th round. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of that going on where they say I have a bet that you're gonna Knock him out in the 10th round so knock him out in the 10th round only. I don't think you'll ever be able to stop that No, that's gonna happen. No, I don't think so either. I mean that's that's gone on forever Yeah, yeah, but isn't fighting like a kind of vocation like a creative vocation for a lot of people Well, it is creative Believe it or not because movement is creative. Yeah, you know when you're fighting You're not just running at each other and some guys do but they're really good guys don't just run at each other in charge Yeah, there's faints and deception. There's movement. Yeah, there's certain things that they're doing where they're reading your movement and trying to guide you in a Particular direction set you up like boxers. I can believe it. Boxers called setting traps. Yeah, yeah It's like playing a you're gonna bluff. Yes Yeah, certainly. Yeah, there's a lot of fainting involved in fighting There's a lot of like fake movement to get you to react and they kick you when you settle in You know this it's it's really creative, you know, it's just why like was it fade down a way? No, was it? Who is it that said, you know that the older woman that said it and we're talking about the arts and I don't mean mix martial arts God, what like a kind of snow-bush thing about? Then close no, it wasn't her it was the lady from Bridges of Madison County who is that That's a man with street barrel street. That's who it was. Yeah, Merrill Street said that It's like it got pissed off so many martial arts people. Why the man with street doesn't like that Is not talking about mixed martial arts like who thought you were? Yeah, who thought you were Merrill that's crazy. I know she's pretty versatile. She can do it all Even though it's violent you think it's not art You're just because you don't understand it if you understood it It is art and it is in fact like a beautiful some performances are beautiful. Let's choreography right? Yeah, well It's not choreography at all. It's it's ad-libbing in the moment. I mean there's Pre-conceived motions That you have that you're hoping that if the guy does this you're gonna do that and sometimes it works out But it's like the poetry of movement of a really sublime fighter like You know Anderson Silva in his prime. Yeah, it was beautiful to watch You know, I believe you I you know my I very limited experience of this I did kung fu when I was 12 And I stopped because I got so bruised. Oh, I got so hurt. I was too cowardly But you know people impose their own standards on other people and their own ideas of what things are You know from the outside and you know, it's kind of silly. Yeah Oh Joe, I was gonna tell you about this Berkeley thing and I almost that's right We got on to the track and got onto elephants, but I think There's a natural segue Because I think this encapsulates all of the stuff you were talking about which is that I was going to this Basically Charlie Kirk's tour. Yeah, we meant to go on Berkeley was the last date and Rob Schneider had agreed to do it and apparently he'd said to Charlie, you know What's the what's the craziest place you could take me to and he said Berkeley? Berkeley's gonna be the crazy. Let's do that. So he was already booked to do it after what happened with Charlie Rob asked me if I'd come along as well and we so we'd be on a panel And I had no idea of the extent of the problem right so uh, and I'm sure you know a lot more than I do You know, but I turned up we were there we turned up and there were men with guns We weren't you know in an SUV under the ground we got into this venue and Suddenly the security start showing me footage from outside and people are it's like a war zone People are throwing smoke bombs. They're they're trying to crash through the railings Some guy gets beaten up he's covered in blood because he was wearing a t-shirt with turning point written on it And I'm suddenly realizing You know what this is a fantasy world that we're now occupying We're now occupying a world where the people outside think the world is this and what's going on inside is completely disconnected from it Yeah, and I actually found it quite depressing Because when I was sitting on stage talking to robin Peter Begozion and Frank Turek these people of completely different viewpoints We're just having a chat outside They're smashing things they're screaming they're saying that fascists have overrun the university. Yeah, and I'm thinking Just to come back to that point you made about You know that need to discuss for discussion that experience may be think actually now what's happening is We're like we're living in two separate worlds at the same time and we can't see what we can't see what the other side is What the what the intentions of the other side are and I don't know how you resolve that I think that's That to me sort of encapsulated the entire problem Well at this point it's going to be very difficult to resolve and I honestly think it's going to take a generation to work through it But isn't it as simple as people learning what the word fascist means for instance like that It's like they they firmly believe that they are trying to fight against something that is going to destroy democracy in this country which is Conservative values but we had that with the no Kings as there's a no Kings March and I couldn't figure that out. I was trying to figure out what what are they this is an elected leader Well, you know, it's all organized right, you know, this is all funded. I don't know. Okay. It is so This was Mike Benz's point when he was talking about the defunding of USAid and what they use that money for NGOs get a bunch of money and they Fund of bunch of things Particularly in other countries where they're essentially making it look like there's these on the ground street protests that are very organic Right, it's not it's very organized and it's very funded and the idea is to start chaos So I've seen people get caught out people who are clearly being paid who appear at various different It's not just that it's it's also email campaigns. It's indoctrinating people into this particular ideology by supporting universities so you've funded it in advance Yeah, so it's like decades of in this is I'm sure you've seen The Russian guy from 1984 1985 your ebesman off talking about the Remime me you never seen it. I don't think it's a wonderful video because it shows you exactly what happened How they're going to introduce Marxism and lendism into universities and then it'll indoctrinate children And then those children will be poisoned and within one generation it'll ruin the United States's entire educational system So that's the law Yeah, but you should watch a little bit of it. Okay, cuz it's it's crazy because back then I remember the 1980s Ever that would be a crazy idea and no universities are where people have free thought and discussion It's very important. Yeah, you know, and I was in a very left-leaning place at the time. I was living in Boston You know, okay, it's like the probably more universities per capita than anywhere else in the country at least at the time And it was a very Well-read city like the idea that universities are going to destroy the way human beings interact and debate Yeah, preposterous, but this guy was talking about this back then that the Soviets had planned this in advance And that they had essentially subverted our entire education system and thereby would those people would leave those schools indoctrinated and enter into the workforce with these new ideas In universal acceptance of these ideas are correct and then it would in turn You know the butterfly effect. But do you think that everyone I don't I can't be sure that it's as conspiratorial as that because there must be a lot of You know people who just got on board. There's a lot of money involved in doing this right There's a lot of funds that have come from China. There's a lot of money that has been donated to these universities like Find that video Okay, I found it, but there's like a second version on Twitter. I've never seen before and AI moderated No, no, it's like it's now in a wig. Oh, I recognize him. So listen to what he says Is spent on espionage as such the other 85% is a slow process Which we call either ideological subversion or active measures actively meripriate in the language of the KGB or psychological warfare What it basically means is to change the perception of reality of every American To such an extent that despite of their abundance of information No one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interests of defending themselves their families their community and their country It's a great brainwashing Process which goes very slow and it's divided in four basic stages Uh, the first one being demoralization it takes from 15 to 20 years to demoralize a nation Why that many years? Because this is the minimum number of years which requires to educate one generation of students In the country of of your enemy Exposed to the ideology of the enemy in other words Marxism Leninism ideology is being pumped into the soft heads of of at least three generations of American students Without being challenged or counterbalanced by the basic values of Americanism American patriotism The result the result you can see most of the people who graduated in the 60s Dropouts or half-baked intellectuals are now occupying the positions of power in the government civil service business media educational system you are stuck with them you cannot get rid of them They are contaminated. They are programmed to think and react to certain stimuli in a certain pattern You cannot change their mind even if you if you expose them to authentic information Even if you prove that white is white and black is black you still cannot change the basic perception and the logic of behavior In other words, these people The process of demoralization is complete and irreversible to get rid society of these people You need another 20 or 15 years to educate a new generation of patriotically minded and a common common sense people who would be acting in favor and in the interests of the United States society And yet these people have been programmed and as you say in place and who are favorable to Opening with the Soviet concept these are the very people who would be marked for extermination in this country most of them yes simply because The psychological shock when when they will see in future what the what the beautiful society of equality and social justice means in practice Obviously, they will revolt they will They will be very unhappy for a straighted people and the Marxist Leninist regime does not tolerate this people They obviously they will join the links of the centers dissidents Unlike in present United States, there will be no place for dissent in future Marxist Leninist America Here you can you can get Popular like Daniel Ellsberg and filthy rich like Jane Fonda for being dissident for criticizing your pentagon in future People will be simply Squashed like cockroaches nobody is going to pay them nothing for their beautiful noble ideas of equality This they don't understand and it will be greatest shock for them of course The demoralization process in United States is basically completed already For the last 25 years Actually, it's overful filled because a demoralization now reaches such areas Where previously not even comrade and drop of and on all his Experts would would even dream of such a tremendous success Most of it is done by Americans two Americans Thanks to lack of moral standards as I mentioned before Exposure to true information does not matter anymore a person who was demoralized Is unable to assess true information the facts tell nothing to him Even if I shower him with information with with authentic truth with documents with pictures Even if I take him by force to the Soviet Union and show him concentration camp he will refuse to believe it Until he he is going to receive a kick in the in his fat bottom When a military boot crashes his then he will understand but not before that. That's the tragic of the situation of demoralization Okay, so pretty fucking accurate. Well, he's describing the situation as it is at the moment right and he's describing it in 1984 However, that doesn't prove that what he's just that intention to create that kind of chaos that it was Implemented and executed in the way that he describes. He's described the KGB agent. Yeah, but I suppose what I mean by that is he's talking about a program that they implemented So they had actual people in universities planted in universities to deliberately execute this idea And they've planned it in advance. This is what he was saying and he's saying this before we even realized that it happened I agree that scary it is scary because it did happen But what but but that doesn't fully explain why it caught on why did academics who were clearly not plans? Why did they catch on with this? They don't live in the fucking real world As the problem with academics they go right from universities to teaching positions I mean this they don't have any real-world experience I mean this whole idea of the long march through the institutions if they're enrouteed to doch codes It's it was said we're gonna do this we're gonna infiltrate the major organizations institutions the church Yeah, we're going to Over a very long period of time a change society for the way that we want to see it I think what's happened is I think that intention was there. I think what he's saying is very eerily describing what's happening now the Demoralization and the detachment from truth, but I don't think it necessarily came about As systematically as that I think you think it came about I think well for one thing I think what we're facing now isn't quite the template that marks would have had in mind right because for one thing There's no emphasis on class or money or the economy or or anything Well in safaris Marxism has become about group identity in terms of the left Right substitute it rich is a giant mantra that people that's written the streets. That's true That's true. They're tax billionaires They're people are but it's in coherent because it's from people who've got money It's from the upper middle class is it's coherent It's all just something the Narrative that you give the unwashed masses and then they run with it Well, I wonder whether it caught on partly through what became fashionable what became trendy But also because any ideology says to you don't have to do anything anymore You can outsource us to that to us right? You've got a set of rules right and these are the rules that you've got It's why well it's why you've got people who are well. It's why you've got queers for Palestine You know that can only exist when you're following a set of rules and not thinking about it for two seconds right? Yeah, that's a wonderful group I actually thought that was fake when I first heard about it which must be about five years You've seen the other meme. I thought it was unreal that Which one Palestine and then Palestine for queers. Oh, and I imagine people off course there of course they are I just say go and do go go there and see what you see see what you experience There's a man in a dress wearing lipstick with a beard good luck Yeah, I just did a tatania tweet of a drag queen touring the Middle East and she's you know She's touring all these venues and and she's got this sort of the Palestine dress and then the sort of the glam kind of Arabic look It's like just just go there and see what happens But that kind of cognitive dissonance can only work if you are right if you are Ideologically driven and I think so I suppose what I mean is I think the appeal of ideology Is what is what explain not a kind of we've implanted in planted these agents here. They're gonna lead to this It has to also be complicity Of course but that comes from implanting ideas, but it's those ideas take hold and then group thing takes it from there But isn't it ashamed that the universities of all places the place where you go to be challenged in the way The place where you go I mean I was thinking that when I was at Berkeley and I You know I'm sitting on the stage And there's all these men with guns all around the theatre because of course what happened with Charlie And I'm thinking it's like the end of the blues brothers You know where you're on stage and all the people are waiting in the way it felt weird And I thought this is not this is not what a university is or should be and the other thing that I thought is a lot of those people outside protesting Weren't students they sort of come in they've been bust in So maybe that feeds into what you were saying about you know, this is 100% planned and how are they getting bust in? Who's funding them right people are paying a lot of money to do that right? And they're doing it all over the country to what they did it during the presidential elections Yeah during the presidential elections They were tracking cell phones from place to place and they realized that there was a group of people that were paid attendees at Kamala Harris's rallies. Oh, yeah, I remember that Yeah, so they were getting paid their job was to show up and cheer for Kamala Harris. Do you think fundamentally then the Democrats are anti-democratic? I think fundamentally anybody that doesn't have organic support Is going to figure out a way in this environment to drum it up And if you can do that through a service or if you could do that through an NGO or if you could do that through a company That'll hire people to show up at your rallies They do it because they want to win and they want to get into a position of power Yeah, and one of the things that we do find with Trump is that it actually turns out the president could do a lot Yeah, you know And we used to think that they were kind of handcuffed and they weren't able to do as much And that's why nothing ever got done turns out that's that doesn't seem to be true You get a maniac in office So you can kind of get away with a lot of things. You do a lot of different things. That's what we so innate in the UK We need someone to come in and strip away. I mean that but we need what Bezmanoff was saying is that we need to Kind of a whole generation that teaches that being patriotic and having morals and ethics is actually a good thing Yeah, and that free speech is important and that to Be able to debate ideas is essential to any sort of true Society that considers itself an elevated Absolutely modern version of what we hope for when this country was founded. Yeah, that wasn't founded on the idea that it's You have to adhere to one ideology and this ideology thinks that gender's not real and no one can answer what a woman is Like that's crazy. Well, that's become popular. Well, we see in America like America's the kind of life after the world You've got all these things built into your political system. Yeah, and that's quite so scary when you see people do you remember the Vice-Presidential debate between JD Vance and Tim Waltz and Tim Waltz said that the first amendment doesn't cover hate speech. It doesn't cover misinformation Is it dangerous? Fuck that. That's scary if the guy who might be vice-president is saying actually we're gonna strip out all of this stuff Also, just the way he behaves is so odd the way he waves and runs on stage And it's all just so fake and perform. Yeah, I don't know any men like that that aren't dangerous. Why was he picked Probably because of the Minnesota stuff. It's probably probably had something to do with what he was allowing to happen in Minnesota Get money on a money. Yeah, okay, maybe the minute look there's a reason why he had to resign. I mean, I'm clearly speculating I have no idea and I'm More on when it comes to politics, but what I would what I would assume is that the For sure he was informed of this fraud long in advance If it wasn't for that Nick Shirley kid and those videos and apparently Nick Shirley had been informed by The the GOP there that this was all going on so this gets exposed it gets into the public zeitgeist It becomes a huge news story It's not a coincidence that the riots break out in the exact same place where all this fraud is being exposed Because ice is everywhere. Yeah, they're all over the place, but it's not The most violent interactions are the interactions that are happening in the place where the most fraud has been publicly exposed Yeah, it's all this is all by design. There's something very scary Yeah, and so this guy knew about it in advance. How do we know? Well one way we know is because he's resigning I guess he's not right there's something he's not running for governor again He was in the process of running for governor. He's decided to step out of public office entirely now So maybe they told him if you do not step out you were going to be prosecuted. We know what you did Or maybe he's going to fucking turn states evidence who fucking knows Imagine if he had of one him and come on the Harris if they would have been in charge of me I don't think I would have come here I think I would be long doesn't buy Twitter and Kamala Harris wins and Tim Walsh is our vice president Which doesn't that just tell you how how fragile freedom is How close you are very fragile That's why people support Donald Trump and the people that think that they support him because he's a racist and all these different things No, no, they support it because it's an alternative to what we all saw coming Yeah, you know, no one's excited that ice is killing people in the streets. No one no one likes that No, of course you have to be a fucking insane if you think those people should be just getting shot like that That's nuts But what they don't want is what the government was previously doing they had a completely open border They were busing people into swing states They were trying to pretend that this was all organic and it's not yeah, it's not it's it's they had a plan And they did in a sneaky way where they looked like the really kind ethical Equitable and inclusive crowd right, but that's the work story all over again exactly It was the woke stories applied to geopolitics. It was a woke stories applied to The whole political process in this country was dependent upon the census Which the census doesn't count citizens the census just counts humans Yeah, and so you get more congressional seats you get more electoral points the whole thing is not I mean I like to think they're not all Democrats are into that that no all Democrats are about the power for itself But the problem is it's a party like if you work for a corporation and you're a good person But the corporation is promoting polluting a river in Guatemala. Yeah, there's a diffusion of responsibility because you're a part of a giant system And hey, I'm just an accountant. I go to work and I do my thing for exon or mobile or whatever it is Well, let's say for however messy all of this has become in the US at least you have had some sort of attempt To strip out the very stuff that that guy was talking about the fact that the civil service is all one way the fact that the machinery of government That was the plan right so the machinery of government works in a certain way So there's no democratic means of getting rid of it. There's no way to change it Well, I think the counter to that is the education that the internet provides and that's where they didn't anticipate in 1984 So yes the education that the internet provides is untethered But then the internet tells us that Christopher Nolan just made a film with a black hell of Troy. Right, and he hasn't it all It produces all sorts of unsavory things too. Yeah, but it also allows the distribution of information that would be impossible through normal means if these people are as he said in control of major media which they were in control of universities Which they are and then it goes on to be the only way people get information now your information is very heavily filtered and then all that stuff works But that's why the technocrats in the EU why ideologues generally are against internet or they want to censor it So I'm a crawling is trying to stop ex Did you hear him? Whoever's trying to stop it. So the EU the head of the EU commission is Ursula von der Leon. Did you hear her name by the way? Well, yeah, it's a sexy name right? Yeah, she's unelected the the the European Commission is an unelected body that sets the legislative agenda of all these European countries Absolutely crazy. You can't vote them out She did a speech last May where she said and I'm not joking about this she said that Misinformation was like a virus and you need to unoculate yourself against the virus and the phrase she used is a not debunking pre-bunking So pre-bunking is her idea of what you do with misinformation. What she means is censorship No, but pre-bunking is the most sinister crazy chill it like if you were to say I'm gonna come up with the most orwellian It's a dark Lord to kind of siss pre-bunking. Yeah, that's like fucking minority report, right? I don't know what I don't know what the Because I know that there's this this free speech debate opening up between the US and the and Europe generally like You know when JD Vance came over to Munich and gave that talk to all the European leaders and said You've got to stop censoring your people You got to stop running away from voters and they were shocked Yeah, and they were horrified but he was dead right He's dead right and he should and you know what people on the left should admit that he's dead right as well But there's something about Europe right there's something about like I think over here coming over here I get the sense that even if most Left-leaning people as well as right-leaning people do value free speech as a kind of shared value And in Europe it's not that there's a real sense of we can't trust the masses Because I know that the EU is is seen as this big lefty thing which it absolutely is not The EU is a body that wants to censor. It's citizens It's a body that tells people you can have a referendum But if you get it wrong, we're gonna make you vote again It's not a democratic organization So no wonder vans is sort of and Trump is at log-aheads with this body because you've got these we in the UK have a Authoritarian leader, Kierstammer the Prime Minister He couldn't be further away from the American ideal of free speech He introduced this online safety bill which is basically to do This is why a lot of tweets in the UK if you go to the UK now a lot of the tweets will come up saying this is potentially harmful content So we're screening it out He you know they're trying to get rid of juries for certain trials right? Theory he did and that's particularly dangerous because some of those cases are for speech crime Right, so I'll give an example There was a Royal Marine called Jamie Michael who had made a video just saying we need to peacefully protest against the migration issue They took him to court for stirring up racial hatred But the jury is like what let him off it was the jury that saved him In this new system there wouldn't be a jury there and he would be in prison Yeah, and most certainly would be in prison So I kind of feel like And we've got Kierstammer now for another three years every decision that he makes Is about not trusting the public censoring what they think He could if he could get rid of xe he absolutely would is it possible that someone sensible could win in three years or is the system So deeply entwined in the ideology of the English people that it's just stuck this is what I think about that I look at America and I think in a way you had your culture war election because of Trump right? Yeah, you know, I mean a lot of people say the culture war doesn't matter of course it does Of course that's about I mean Did you see about that the the advert that the GOP put out you know commoner Harris's for they them Trump is for you That was the slogan it was about The Democrats wanting to fund transgender surgery for prisoners And Donald Trump's team had this advert common Harris for they them Donald Trump is for you That actuated a 2.7 shift in favor of Donald Trump among everyone who saw it. It was a major success That just shows that these issues these cultural issues people do care Oh, they do vote, but you had a way in the America to vote that stuff out through Trump right? We we've never had that we've had but they barely had a way like it if they had more time they wouldn't have You mean that if the Democrats are like if the Democrats won this time and then they try to do it again in 2028 Elon was really adamant about that during the last election like this might be the last real election We have if you don't stop this now because they have an open border and in the last four years They've pulled 10 at least 10 million people into this country and they've changed the electoral map Yeah, and then on top of that there was both Schumer and Nancy Pelosi openly talking about letting these people vote openly talking about giving these people path to citizenship and they had already put them on Medicaid They had to put them on social security. They're giving them ebt cards They were housing them at the Roosevelt hotel in New York City They were giving them money and helping them get to these states right they were flying them Through into America and putting them in these places because they were trying To get voters so another four years another four years they might have had it completely locked up You know that's what the Democrats they were I've said about the Republicans I mean Oprah Winfrey was saying this might be the last election we have if we don't If we don't become a lot more Oprah Winfrey had Donald Trump on her show years ago I was asking him to be president. Yeah, they were mates. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah Look, they all get captured they all get captured by group think and ideology And they all get captured by money and protecting it and who's gonna protect them and But we don't we don't have that safety valve in the UK like so like I say you were able to For all the imperfections you were able to vote in an administration that was actually going to rip out that that whatever Show this system is better. We showed the system is better even though the system was trying to get rigged Enough people revolted against it. Yes, that but look at the ideas that you're attaching to this administration Like look the ice stuff is terrific the murder the people getting shot. It's it's terrific. We all agree to that There's a lot of the authoritarian aspects that's horrific But what they've stopped is all of this illegal immigration. Yeah, right? They've stopped all the illegal immigration legal immigration is still available And then what they've also done is investigate Literally billions of dollars in fraud and they're uncovering it over and over and over and over again So there was obviously crime that was going on That was not being addressed by the previous party sure and this one of the reasons why they didn't want the republicans getting in in the first place So they still have to label them in the most horrific ways possible Accentuate all the negative aspects of what's going on with the ice stuff But not talk at all about the economy taking an uptick not talk at all about GDP not talk at all about tariffs being effective Not talking at all about any of the positive things stopping wars. He stopped wars in multiple different countries Stop conflicts. There's no one talking at all in an objective sense. Yes This is a Nazi party these are fascists. We have to have no kings stop the fascists So these narratives are just being pushed out there Constantly by the media all the while these politicians are absolutely terrified that these investigations are going to start moving into their states And uncovering more and more and more fraud which they're going to I mean, I know you say it's so reckless though I think as well for the democrats to like you say Paint ice as Nazis talk about that. This is the equivalent of the Gestapo I think someone use that phrase. I mean, I know what you're saying about the shootings obviously we all agree it's absolutely horrific any kind of Situation where a police inflict that kind of violence and someone needs to be thoroughly investigating looked into an all the rest through but I'm concerned about the politicians as I know go there get in the way of federal agents while they're enforcing the law They're trying to be popular but but but they're putting people's lives at risk I mean that But it's again that that chess move again giving up the rook or Attacking a rook and giving up your queen because of it because you just want the the current Well, it's working in so far as the like the public is turning against Trump because of what's happening with ice I mean that's certainly a lot of that. Yeah, there's certainly a lot of that the the narrative is out there It's dependent upon how far it goes. Yeah, right. They've got to de-escalate this violence. Yes, they've got to make sure that that but You also need supportive local police. You can't have people attack the hotels where these ice people are staying and have no support whatsoever by the police That's crazy. They're being told to stand down. So this is messy stuff and you yeah, but look how hard it Well, I mean you you talk about how you know we Trump has come in on these stripped away all this stuff and this fraud and but that was he didn't do it in the first term It's only when he got to the second term and it was planned and he had doge set up and he had musk in place And all of this deep state stuff could be identified and stripped out and worked a lot of deep state people in his cabinet the first term You didn't know so he couldn't work against it, but we can't in the UK Just to sort of explain where I think we are there is we can't do that because we have the two major parties are both I do logically in lockstep effectively, right? So so I mean most of the woke stuff was pushed through the conservative party They were in power for 13 years They're ostensibly right. We're through the woke stuff. They pushed through the genders self recognition stuff Why do you think the conservatives did that so the why is a good question? So the prime minister Theresa May conservative prime minister at the time She said in her autobiography. I'm woken proud. You know she said like she Can you imagine Trump saying that? There's the equivalent. It's the equivalent So I think it's because something about this ideology infected every side of the The political are particularly in the UK What might happen now in the UK is reform are probably going to win the next election That's in three years time and that's so seismic because it will blow apart this two-party system that we've got That probably couldn't happen in America right you probably couldn't get a third party that can win We have a third party that can win that's new really and that's we haven't had that for a long long long long time But he said what is the possibility that it could win? Well, look at it this way We've been sort of veering massively from you know the conservatives under Boris Johnson won this mad Mad majority like 80th majority and they could do whatever they want and they squandered it People were so resentful of what happened with Johnson who by the way let in So more migration than illegal migration than we've ever had right did he do that for cheap labor probably I mean, I think that's certainly part of it certainly that's part of it That's a that's a problem that conservatives don't want to admit that they were You know, I had a conversation with a very prominent politician Who explained to me that he had a conversation of whether the guy who was a CEO of a corporation that didn't want to stop the flow of illegal immigration Because he wanted cheap labor He was flabbergasted. He was like I can't fucking believe this guy's saying this out loud It's worse with Johnson because in their manifesto they pledged not to do it So they had to promise they call it the Boris wave Like so so so that's how bad it was and then you have Stammer and the labor party who were just as bad if not worse And you know, we we have a situation where it's it's unmanageable now and reform this third party Nigel Farage's party is they know we're actually going to tackle this And of course ultimately what happens is the public they reach a tipping point and they say By the way Stammer is the least popular prime minister on any opinion poll ever in the history of records That's he's gone from a massive majority To nothing Because he's been so useless on all of this stuff because he's been so Captured by the ideology because he doesn't care about migration because he said That anyone who was concerned about the grooming gang scandal Was jumping on a bandwagon of the far right. That's what he that's what he said So all of this has happened, but you can't blame the left. It's the left and the right It's both of them. It's why they call it the uni party. It's the same thing So you need something else to come along and So you explode it. What do you think the possibility of Farage winning pretty high? If it were today he'd win if he didn't get whacked between now and then Do you guys whack people over there very often less than here. I think that's more it's more an American thing But you know it's not easier a lot more guns over here. There's a lot more guns So it could but I think it's cross obviously that won't happen But it looks like if it was today he'd win Uh, there's a obviously I mean he could mess things up something crazy could happen right Yeah, it caught with a live boy or a dead girl something like that But I think with Stama people are just sick of it He's it he has continually backtracked on all his promises. He's not interested He dismisses people's concerns about immigration He dismisses people concerned about the mass rape of children in the grooming gang scandal That you know, they have to be dragged kicking and screaming to do an inquiry about that They didn't want to do it You know and because they're so terrified of being called racist ultimately so they let this thing slide So I think people are just sick of it. I think people have reached the point where Even I think people who don't like Nigel Farage will hold their nose and vote for a third party to explode the system And maybe we might be able to reset after that. Maybe something could happen one of the things is interesting in America There's a lot of young people are becoming conservative. That's it. That is interesting Yeah, it's interesting because I think that's a force of the internet and being a conservative more today is more like being a rebel Yeah, it's like bucking this system Whereas it used to be that if you were a rebel you were left-wing you were like you're a hippie Yeah, you know, and that's not really the case anymore because the system that has power Is a system that is pushing this one very particular ideology that Also demonizes young males hugely. Yeah, but that's also why I don't think it's about left and right anymore I think one of the things about the culture or is it? It kind of killed off left and right like I say in the UK we couldn't vote this out We had a right-wing party. It didn't make a difference the left-wing party makes it worse We had a prime minister, you know kiss Dharma on radio saying that 99.9% of men of women don't have a penis Which means that there are that what is it 35,000 female penises out there? It's quite a lot if you can picture that image You know, so that's our prime minister saying this crazy our deputy prime minister said on TV that you could Grow a cervix if you wanted So That's David Lamy That sounds like I'm making that up he said that you can check that he said you could grow a cervix So this is these are the kind of people who are in charge now who are it's just all about their fake You know fake ideology that's why internet censorship is so much more prominent there That's what's gonna happen. No, that's why they're gonna absolutely try to do that. Yeah exactly Well, they are doing it. Yeah, just self-censorship by arresting people. There's a lot of censorship involved and scare Yeah, and I'm just in the fear of being arrested but the problem for reform will be do they have the guts to do what trump did Do they have the guts to come in and say look we need to scrap the civil service one that you can't scrap the civil service But you need to sort of bleed it dry You need to you need to give it a good rinse right you need to get rid of the because there have been whistleblowers in the UK civil service Who've said we're not gonna do what the elected politicians say if they come in and say there's an immigration problem We're just gonna stime you that we're not gonna do what they want We've got a police who are routinely investigating people for their opinions Just to put that into context by the way if we're talking about this deep state that we've got to clean out our police force Is trained by a body called the College of policing they have been telling police for years It's your job to arrest people for what they think and what they say and the high court What the high court told them you've got to stop this you've got to stop recording non-crime hate incidents Two home secretaries said to them you've got to stop recording non-crime hate incidents. They ignored The courts they ignored the government And that's the power of an ideologically captured quango. You know that's that's the problem So even when you even when you vote for a party that's gonna strip this stuff out You still have to do the actual hard work of stripping out I would abolish the College of policing to people know about non-crime hate incidents So they do they know that this is a thing in America? Do they know that that's what we do? No, I mean people are just aware that there's a lot of arrest because of social media posts We don't pay nearly as much attention to the UK as the UK pays attention to American politics Right now that's fair enough You know because we're a small line and that's fair enough But what I would say is that it's worse than people think insofar as the 12,000 arrested year That's horrific But with the police routinely checking up on you if you commit non-crime That's sort of even worse isn't it? Yeah, the the Scottish police Have a database of jokes that they've seen online that they think problematic and they've kept this The Scottish police introduced a hate crime bill two years ago now Which process can prosecute you for things you say in your own house There's a section in that bill on the public performance of a play So if a play is offensive they can arrest you If you're the director or an actor involved in the play and it's considered offensive they can arrest you They set up when they when they implemented that hate crime bill they set up Hate crime reporting centers So if you felt offended you could and they converted like like there was a sex shop I think there was a mushroom farm you could go and report hate to the police As and when it occurs and this is coming from the the police force The people who are supposed to sustain authority and prevent criminality And you've seen the viral videos of people police coming knocking on people's doors saying You said this thing online So I think it's worse than just the the arrest I think it's a rotten system That is being trained by activists in the college of policing That no government will deal with they don't get rid of these activists They let the actor and the activists when they're told to stop it they carry on anyway And in the entire culture has to shift That's what I mean You need a politician to go in and say Scrap the college police in Strip out all the activists within the NHS within the army within the police Within the Crown Prosecution Service It also has to get so bad that people realize how bad it is and they need radical change But I think the grooming gangs did that Yeah I think the fact that we effectively sacrifice thousands of kids On the altar of ideology the fact that we said You know the there were politicians, counsellors Doctors, social workers saying we don't want to be called racist So we're going to ignore the sexual assault of children on a mass scale And that was not really thoroughly covered here in America Really? Stream news I think because Elon No online it was But not in mainstream news So do people not generally know about that? They know about it now Right Okay But it wasn't something that you would see every night on CNN Really Yeah, it's a huge story But that the power of being called racist became so intense I mean even you know that horrible Bombing at the Manchester Arena at the Ariana Grande concert In the subsequent report of what went wrong One of the security guards said he saw The perpetrator with the rucksack And he didn't Approach him or apprehend him because he was afraid of being called racist That was the reason And as a result of that two dozen children lost their lives The power of Of smearing someone as racist is so potent Which is why I think here in America The word fascist, the word Nazi gets thrown around so much Because they know If someone is so branded You disobey yourself from having to engage with their ideas They become this kind of monster That you don't have to even think about or worry about Right And we're just I think we're just getting over that in the UK now Where The accusation of racism no longer really sticks I think people think it doesn't mean anything anymore And You know They've tried with reform They've tried saying that reform is a racist party It's a far right party No one's buying it anymore And I think that's why hopefully something can change I think the grooming gangs I think the mass immigration To the extent where people are now at risk They just are Unvetted people Many with criminal records We don't want to go the way of Sweden Do you know how bad Sweden's got You know Sweden Used to be the most High trust society in Europe Low crime They allowed mass immigration on the scale They couldn't possibly contain I think it's now 20% of Swedish population are now foreign born And Predominantly they live in ghettos where crime is rife They didn't integrate There was no expectation they should integrate And as a result of that It's gone from being one of the safest countries in Europe To being the country that has most gun and bomb attacks Of any country not at war except for Mexico And that's happened in the space of 10 years All right It's a absolute track I remember when it was going on And a Swedish standup friend of mine To be a sp person Texted me Saying there's gun There's grenade Grenades going off in Stockholm There's gunfire on my street There's And the politicians are doing nothing about it They're saying this doesn't matter I was in Sweden a couple of years ago I was talking to a bunch of And they're You know what Swedes are like They're very middle class very Oh but all of them are very liberal Very like not a racist tread in their body And they all came back to the same story They all wanted to discuss immigration And they all come back to the same thing One woman said to me I got this wrong We got this wrong Why do you think they did it Good intentions first and foremost Really Okay, well there's a Really? You think it's just good intentions To let all those people in Have you met Swedes? You know how they're so lovely Come on It's happening in America It's happening in England It's happening in the UK Yes It's happening in Ireland It's happening It's just good intentions everywhere Could it also be Could it also be this delusion This idea What you would call, I suppose, a liberal universalism This idea that Everyone is basically the same Everyone in every culture Basically wants the same things It explains the queers for Palestine for nomin You know, it doesn't matter when you go No, no, no, no The queers for Palestine for nominers Explain by the internet And people being stupid And being in a bubble Where they never experienced those folks I don't think this is organized I think it's organized I think the more chaos there is The more they can crack down on your rights I know you think it's organized I'm not convinced of that yet I'm open to it I just think I mean, it's at one point in time It's Fairly universal in Western societies But to enjoy the rule in them Yes In America as well The last four years before Trump got into office That's what they were doing here It seems like a strategy It doesn't seem as simple as just good intentions I know Well, and that does seem too simplistic I absolutely agree with that You create more chaos The more chaos you have The more laws you need The more laws you need The more control you have But speaking to these people in Sweden I mean, I was there It was an event where we were talking about a book I'd written So it was all about These issues And I was mingling and talking to them And they all wanted to talk about it But they're the citizens That's what I mean People that implemented those laws in the first place That's where I'm cynical I think the people that implemented those laws In the first place they know what they're doing Yes, and Well, certainly they're aware of the risks I mean, if you take what happened in Cologne That New Year's Eve party Where I think over 800 women were sexually assaulted And the media didn't report it And the government wanted to sort of minimalize And say that this wasn't real It's not even just the risks It's the physical Actual measurable consequences Yes, exactly And they're not, they're not course correcting That to me leads me to think that they know what they're doing You don't think it could just be complete naivety This idea that I think it's the best way to combat the internet The best way to combat the internet Is create a massive amount of chaos And then crack down on people's lives I suppose what worries me about it is though That, that, the assumption that it's also to coordinated Will take you down that route Where you start thinking As some friends of mine now think The world is controlled by a group of satanists Who sit in a room and they choose the, you know, they choose the leaders And they, you know what I mean? Like the ex- Well, I don't take it Satanist But I think it's incredibly wealthy people But why would it be in their interest To destroy the economy that so sustains them Well, depends on where they are and who they are But George Soros clearly does that And he's talked about it He's talked about enjoying destroying democracies And enjoying destroying countries He's kicked, he's not allowed to go into certain countries He makes money doing it But he relies on those democratic societies But they're still functional He just profits off of it largely That's what I struggle with though Like, you know, someone who believes in fundamentally the capitalist dream Can't be a capitalist dream To be sub It's subject to manipulation Yeah And intelligent, evil people Or at least amoral people But this doesn't, this doesn't answer why people do vote for it And they do I mean they do vote for it because they've done a really good job Of attaching it And there's also this ideology thing There's left and right If you're left, you're blue no matter who Blue to the grave That's it If anybody that votes red is a dirty racist fascist And they think about it that way And we really have no option for a centrist party In this country Which is where most people lie Most people lie in the middle Most people are very socially liberal And most of the people that I know That they even Identifies conservative They're very socially liberal But they're financially much more aligned With conservative ideology Sure Well I think, I mean I think ultimately hopefully That the brick wall of reality is what is what cures this Like it's when If we don't destroy society along the way Or if we don't allow them to destroy society We don't completely erode all of our rights along the way And as you said earlier You can get very close to that happening And rights in that lost are never regained Never look at Australia They had one mass shooting They took their guns in the 1990s Then COVID came and they'll like get a fucking camp Yeah And they just They've just introduced a new Hate speech law off the back of the Bondy beach shooting And of course this again is Really draconian It goes way too far In fact I think the Australian hate speech law is basically saying If someone does something that wasn't intended to stir up hatred But it could conceivably have stirred up hatred Among a theoretical group or people Group of people Then it's a crime and you can get five years in prison Sure And imagine blaming that on hate speech Instead of blaming it on Just letting Wild violent criminals emigrate into your country I mean that's imagine Yeah It's what go what an amazing gaslighting We had it But not saying hey maybe we should stop letting violent criminals Enter into our country illegally And live here No no no What we should start doing is taking people that have done no crime What so ever And create their dissent Create a crime based on their dissent I totally agree We had it in the UK We had a politician horrible story Guy called David Amos You know he was stabbed to death by an Islamist At his surgery You know politicians have we call them surgeries Where you meet face to face your constituents They come and you talk about the local issues I don't think they do that in America He stabbed him to death And then there was this parliamentary debate about How can we crack down on free speech online Right No the problem was the knife wielding maniac The problem was Uh, unshacked Islamism I mean it really is what Besmina was saying Yeah it's that thing of not addressing the Like after the uh, not seeing the truth Not seeing the truth Because you've been captured But I think you've been demoralized But I think what's better now is that people can see through that So like when When um, Kirstama Well after that horrible I mentioned it earlier The girls who were killed in the dance class By the guy Who was a child of immigrant immigrants He that his response to that was Okay, let's let's not uh You know deal with the fact that we've got radicalized individuals Within our community Young people He said let's ban buying knives off Amazon Because the guy got the knife from Amazon right You can also get them in shops here You can walk in and get shops Most people have a kitchen over at home It's like one of the most That's not the Common weapons And he banned ninja swords around the same time Which was a big blow to the ninja community But I kind of So great like that's the thing you go for You choose the The thing that isn't But this is the idea of allowing this kind of chaos And having this be a coordinated plan Right The more chaos you have The more you gaslight people The more people are attached to an ideology The more you can keep Restricting their rights Further and further and further Until they're more and more frustrated And to a lot of them just give up But we are at a position now Where people are seeing through it all the time In the UK now Like No matter how much they smear Reform as far right The polls just keep going up and up and up for them Right but it's because of the internet Because you have at least Some dissenting voices We have that And also The palpable absurdities of what the politicians are trying to tell you is real Right Is as big as reach such While they're trying to crack down Pop talk Oh and by the way you know the Labe party has cancelled a number of local elections Because they know they're going to lose them They've actually cancelled them They've cancelled them Well they've said they've postponed them while they're reforming the system Right Well they're what they really So But it's stuff like that Where Get rid of the juries Cancel elections And they're the good guys And at that point It doesn't matter how much you're propaganda Or how much you think your propaganda is going to work The public are going to see through that And they say hang on a minute You're saying that I can't vote You're saying if I end up in court I may not have a jury You're saying I can't browse through Twitter You're saying I can't say the wrong thing online Enough is enough And I think they reach a point Where they say And some of the stories are so egregious Like for instance the guy Have you heard of a guy called Hammett Koskund This I think he's our meanian guy Who burned a copy of his caran Outside the Turkish Embassy Right The idea of this was a protest against the Turkish government Because he perceives Erdogan's government As a I suppose supporting Islamism And the rise of Islamism So he protests outside the thing Burns the caran Two people attacking One with a knife The other Some delivery driver starts kicking him He gets prosecuted in the court of law for inciting The violence And the judge actually says The fact that you were attacked Is proof that you were inciting violence Right It took the free speech union In the UK to have that overturned To fight on his behalf to say That's a peaceful protest It was his copy of his book We don't have blasphemy laws in the UK But now the CPS The Crown Prosecution Service is trying to overturn that Because they want to see this guy go down And that is what we're talking about We've got bodies like the Crown Prosecution Service saying No, we want an Islamic blasphemy code in the UK The Labour Party wants an official definition of Islamophobia So you can't criticize You can't peacefully protest You can't burn a book that you bought You know And all of that And we're seeing this happen In front of us And people are just saying look We believe in plurality We believe in freedom of religion You should be able to You know, we've got nothing against Muslim people What we are objecting to is the idea That we shouldn't be able to ridicule your religion Or mock your religion Or protest against your religion And you're going to pathologize it by saying We've got a sickness Whereas Lamaphobic I think people I think that case The fact that you can't Burn, I mean some kid in a school in Wakefield Accidentally scuffed A copy of his Quran And he got hit with a non-crime hate incident And there was a big issue And the police got involved You know We have to hold fast So this idea is that No, no idea No idea Doesn't get criticized No, like I And so I just think the more stories like that happen Maybe I'm naive But I think The British public's Patience Is kind of at the very end I hope so I hope it's not too late I really do Um But In the meantime Your book The End of Woke It's available Did you do the audio version of it? I did, it took me ages Yeah, I'm glad you did it, go Yeah, I'm sure it is But it's always so much better when it's in this It's fun, isn't it? It's especially so much you Oh, thank you, Andrew Really appreciate it And I hope you guys Figure it out over there But in the meantime, I'm glad you're here Well, I got away I'm glad I'm glad But I mean, that's It shouldn't be that everybody has to escape That's crazy No, I know You know It's nuts And then what's gonna be left Like Only people that are submitting And then the chaos of what you've loud in The fucking nuts Exactly, so you gotta make sure that America Doesn't go to pop Because I need this place to work I need a torque too Well, it's part of my business model All right, thank you, bye everybody