Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Join us this spring at ABBA Voyage. The groundbreaking concert like no other. Sing and dance along to some of the band's most popular hits. Only at London's ABBA Arena. New dates on sale. Book now at ABBAvoyage.com. Jamie, I am your father. Join me. We can rule this podcast as father and son. I like that you didn't change. You only added the word podcast. And then I'm like, no, I would sooner free fall into space. Then rule this podcast with you. You sicko fascist. Wow. Yeah, I know. It's my birthday though. I know. Sorry. Happy birthday. But you did, you brought it on yourself. We can't excuse fascism just because it's your birthday, Caitlin. Happy birthday. Thank you. It's true. This is my birthday episode. Big year. Holy shit. Yeah, I'm 40 bitch. I love it. I love it. And you've, well, tell the listeners at home how you've been celebrating. It's kind of been, I like that for you. You are so good at having a birthday and it becomes birthday season, not birthday the day. Yeah, it's a whole, this time around it's a whole year. I started in April. My birthday is in a few days from the release of this episode. But I started back in April by going to London to see Paddington the musical. That was my big birthday treat to myself. And it did not disappoint. It was so good. I'm so happy for you. That is like, yeah. The second it happened, I was like, I know that Caitlin is going to find their way there. It really is just a matter of when. Yeah. But you made quick work of it. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, I was very efficient. But yeah, and one of the other ways I'm celebrating is by making us talk about Empire Strikes Back. Which I am actually, I mean, wow, life, life comes at you fast because I'm so happy to do it. And I can't imagine myself saying that when this podcast started. No. I mean, this is just like a big nostalgia year, especially us wise, because it's our 10 year. We're still figuring out how to celebrate, you know, but I think so much about how I remember like your 30th birthday show at Nerd Melt. Yeah. And how that was a time where it was around the time that the Star Wars sequels were starting to come out and I just couldn't have cared less. But time continued to march on and then I realized I was wrong as hell. These movies are fun. They're good. They're fun and flawed. And guess what? I'm not better than a damn person in the world, unlike I thought when I was 22 or whatever. Yeah. So I'm so excited. Yeah. I mean, should we, I guess if this is your first Bechtel cast episode, welcome. It's a fun one. And we'll tell you what the show is really quick. Yes. This is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies. And in this case, Caitlin's favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechtel test as the jumping off point for discussion. But Caitlin. Yes. What is that? What is that? Not to quiz you on your birthday. Yeah. Wow. So this is a series created by our dear friend of the podcast, Alison Bechtel. Quick version is, and our version is that due to characters of a marginalized gender have names, do they speak to each other? And is there conversation about something other than a man? And I think you'll find the reason that we're kind of glazing over the specifics of the test in a case of this movie is because, well, it doesn't pass. It doesn't apply even a little bit to this movie. There are certain episodes where we get really specific about like, well, it could mean this, it could mean this, but there are certain movies where you're like, well, it either, it's episodes where it happens a lot or never even runs the risk of happening. And this is, this is the latter. We don't really need to get into the nitty gritty today. No, we don't. But we do need to get into the nitty gritty of our relationship with Star Wars. And Jamie, you were already talking a little bit about yours, but tell us what's your relationship with this movie specifically and then the larger universe. Yeah, it's been, it's been a journey. We actually, we talked about this a fair amount in our prequels tour, which happened early last fall in the Midwest, where my relationship with Star Wars began with the prequels. I just was not a sci-fi kid at all. I was not sci-fi or fantasy. I know we were very different sci-fi fantasy action. We're just not my vibe. I was like performatively to criticize myself at 11 years old performatively against a lot of it. Okay. Because I don't know, I had this mentality that like magic was cheating. So that's why I, I don't know. But Star Wars, obviously I remember, I didn't see the first prequel in theaters. I did see the second one at a drive-in and remember it being the first movie I was like, wow, that was boring. And you were not wrong. I was not wrong. And you can listen to our prequels episode for more on that. And then the third one I performatively loved because they like kind of turned Darth Vader into like a sexy hot topic character, which I was into. Sure. All over the place. But I never really watched or engaged with the original trilogy when I was a kid. So I wouldn't have seen the Empire Strikes Back at least until I lived in LA. I would guess not for the first time until like the last five years probably. I just never, I mean, and then definitely rewatched it last summer when I was doing like pretty heavy prep on the prequel and the original trilogy. Yeah, for our tour. For our tour. So I can now confidently say all this yada yada yada. I can now confidently say that Empire Strikes Back is indeed my favorite of the first trilogy. It's a lot of people's favorite, I would say. Yeah, it doesn't seem to be a controversial opinion. But it like, it just, it hits. It hits. And it, I mean, while it makes a lot of the mistakes that movies of its era also make, there's a lot of tokenism. There's a lot of like, there's, we'll talk about it. But I think that in terms of mistakes that Star Wars often makes, it tends to avoid a few that I associate with this franchise in a way that I appreciate. And the performances are so fun. It's a great story. I love Lawrence Kasdan. I enjoyed learning about Lee Brackett, who I didn't really know anything about. Same. And yeah, I don't know. I just, this is my favorite one of the trilogy, although I think that, because I know your favorite is Return of the Jedi, that while that's not one that I love, I do love the Ewoks. And if the Ewoks were in Empire Strikes Back, it would be a perfect movie. I agree. Yes. Thank you. I know that I cite Ewoks as the reason that I love Return of the Jedi the most. And that's not entirely true. There are other things I like about it. And also, I, and I might have brought this up before either on this podcast or I've guested on other Star Wars things in the past. But the version of Return of the Jedi that I watched growing up was an edited for TV version of the movie that we taped from TV onto a blank VHS, which like just trims a lot of the, I think, unnecessary bits from that movie and makes it a lot tighter. And that version is my favorite movie. When I watch the theatrical cut of Return of the Jedi, there's weird stuff that wasn't in the like edited down version that I saw. And I was like, what the hell is this? I, yeah, I get why people think it's kind of not the best. But was there anything else about your, your relationship with Star Wars before I start to wax poetic about it? No, I just, my favorite, I love Bobbufferick. I didn't see the last Jedi when it came out in theaters. I might have seen episode seven, but we definitely saw episode nine together and we were, we were freaking it up. That's my full history. Incredible. For my Star Wars fandom. I mean, you have history. I've got history. I, this is a fandom that I do not talk about as much as some of my other fandoms such as Paddington or Titanic, for example. But I am a long time Star Wars head, especially this original trilogy. I am not a completionist when it comes to all the Star Wars content out there. There are a bunch of series that I haven't watched. I mean, at some point it just like, it gets to be too much. Yeah. So there are many fans who know a lot more like Star Wars lore than me, but I've seen this original trilogy dozens of times, probably starting around like age nine or 10. This specific movie I've watched many, many times. I love the world. I also love Andor. I have an Andor tattoo. I also love Bobbufferick. Ugh. Now we're talking. I'm back. Excited to see him in the Mandalorian movie that's about to come out. I can't wait. We were just talking about, because we were just talking about Carrie Fisher on a recent episode of Daily Zeitgeist Icons. Yeah. Haven't seen them. I remember you texting me saying that the Bobbufferick Geons were in Mandalorian season three, right? That wasn't me because I did not watch the show that far. Oh, okay. Someone must have told me. Either way, but yeah, he's back, baby. He's on the poster and everything. I can't wait. Oh, yeah. I'm very excited. So yeah, like because that movie's coming out, it felt also like a good time to talk about this movie specifically because the lore of the Mandalorians like Bobbuffet is like one of those people. The first Star Wars movie that he appears in is this one, I think, like, I know he's not in a no hope, but there's like also random, like, there's a Christmas special that everyone forgets about. But anyway, like, I mean, people talk about the Christmas special. Isn't Bobbuffet like a meaningful part of that? I barely remember it. I just remember you meet Chewbacca's whole family and they look so fucking freaky. But it honestly is worth a watch. We should watch it some Christmas together. We should cover it. We should cover it. Yes. Yes. But yeah, I love Empire Strikes Back and yet Return of the Jedi is still my favorite and I will probably insist that we cover that for another birthday episode of mine, maybe even next year. We'll see. Oh my God. Wow. Okay. Yeah, shall we take a quick break and then come back for the recap? Let's do it. Hmm, amaretto. So you don't always listen to your papa, huh? Dad. Making a click, it takes a Viva. And we're back. Okay. So first I'll start with a very brief recap of episode four just in case anyone needs a refresher. Yeah. The evil galactic empire has built this huge planet destroying Death Star space station thing. We meet Princess Leia. She's a member of the Rebel Alliance that are rebelling against the Empire. She puts blueprints for the Death Star into R2-D2. And then he and C3PO escape to the planet of Tatooine where they end up in the possession of Luke Skywalker, who links up with a Jedi knight named Obi-Wan Kenobi. Together they find a hologram message from Princess Leia about these Death Star plans. So they set off to deliver R2-D2 and the plans to the secret base of the Rebel Alliance. They do so in the Millennium Falcon, a ship piloted by space smugglers Han Solo and Chewbacca. You've seen it at the LEGO store. Yes, it's a little known ship called the Millennium Falcon. And then as they're flying around in this ship, they get pulled into the tractor beam of the Death Star where they find and rescue Princess Leia, who had been captured by Darth Vader, the big bad boy. Yeah. And if you don't know who Darth Vader is, we can't help you. Sorry. We cannot help you. Yes. He and Obi-Wan Kenobi have a lightsaber battle. Obi-Wan is killed. The others escape in the Millennium Falcon again. And they make it to the Rebel base where the Death Star plans are analyzed. They discover a weakness. And after this big space battle, Luke Skywalker blows up the Death Star. The end. And now. And that leads us right into Episode 5, Empire Strikes Back. With a very satisfying little time jump that I appreciated. Yes, we skip over some stuff and we're caught up to speed in the famous Star Wars opening scroll, of course. I believe it's been a couple of years since the first. I was seeing three years after the destruction of the Death Star is what I was seeing, which actually I didn't remember in preparing for this. And actually did kind of help address some of the story questions I had where you're just like, well, it's been three years. You know, there's a lot of shit that's gone on. It's been 84 years. Minus 81 years. At this point, it's like, you know, Leia and Han, it's like a work crush. You know, like it's not love it for a sight. They've been colleagues for years. And we don't know exactly how much time they've spent together in those three years. Yes, I was not totally clear on that. But we learn in the opening scroll that Imperial troops are hunting members of the Rebel Alliance across the galaxy. A group of Rebel fighters, including our friends Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Han Solo, Chewbacca, C-3PO, R2-D2. And others have established a secret base on the ice planet of Hoth. Meanwhile, Darth Vader is obsessed with finding Luke Skywalker and has sent out like probes to look for him. Question mark. Like, we I have to believe we're not meant to truly know. I remember when I rewatched it last summer being like, oh, this is a fun little fashion moment in the Empire Strikes Back. That because it starts on Hoth, like everyone kind of has this like little LL bean thing going on where they're wearing parkas. And there's at least for Han and Luke, there's a big like, I took my hood off and here I am. And I'm still sexy and awesome moment that is so like we come to this place. I really I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the the derobing. Sure, sure. Yeah, I meant to do this earlier during my like history and relationship with Star Wars. But I have a little show and tell moment if you'll indulge me. Oh, please. I have a bunch of Star Wars memorabilia that I've collected over the years. And so first great for a podcast that we've refused to pivot to video on. Yes, this is an audio medium. However, I will describe these things and then people will be like, wow, thank you. We're going to conjure an image. My tools are words. Okay, so this thing is a canister of Hoth chocolate. Hoth Coco. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Hoth Coco. Right. I have a Boba Fett. This is a coin bank. What is it about? What is it about Boba Fett that is so appealing to people? I like have never quite understood it because I I was so surprised on the rewatch of being like, oh, this is the movie we meet Boba Fett and and he's so like random to me. I just like I'm like, I don't understand why people have the people have like an absolutely like fervent connection to this character. I never really understood it either. He does appear on screen a little bit more in Return of the Jedi, but yes, cumulatively, his moments on screen in Empire are maybe one minute of screen time. I just barely there. They don't even call him by name either. Darth Vader just keeps calling him bounty hunter. He's a guy doing cool stuff, but there's a lot of guys doing cool stuff in Star Wars. I just and I don't think the prequels really help retcon that honestly because you're like, oh, Boba Fett has a difficult relationship with his father. What's fucking new in this franchise? So true. God. Yes. Okay, a few more items and and some of them are very specific to this movie. This is a little book called I just a soon kiss a wookie. Oh my God. And other Star Wars quotes. This is a book called the Star Wars cookbook. Wookie cookies. Wookie cookies. Yes. I mean, I guess it was just sitting there. Precisely. This is a book called how to speak wookie and then there's buttons on it. I wonder if the batteries are still alive. No, they sure aren't. I pressed a button and nothing happened. Okay. Last thing I'll share is we simply can't forget my ladies of Star Wars deck of cards. Yes. Yes. I honestly do sometimes because my recall on the original trilogy, unfortunately, my recall is best on the prequels. Because it and again, you should go back and listen to our prequels episode because I'm very proud. We did a lot of work to prep for that. We sure did. But this one, this one for me at least is going to be a little looser because I did not have weeks to prepare and or tickets on the line. Yeah. But I kind of forgot if this was the the one with Java or not. It is not the one with Java. And I think that works to its advantage quite a bit. I would say so. Although I love the sequence at Jabba's Palace. So I, I, okay, this is like, well, this is related, but not related to Empire Strikes Back. But I was so shocked because I'm so out of the loop with this franchise that I know that like fans knew about Jeremy Allen Jabba for probably months and years. But I was so when I was watching the trailer for the Mandalorian and Grogu and they were like Jeremy Allen White and I was like, where I must have missed it. I don't know about this. Of what do you speak? Look up Jeremy Allen White Star Wars. He's playing like Jabba's son, nephew. I forget where it is. He's Jeremy Allen Jabba. You're like, what? Well, if you recall, I made a big deal about Jabba's small son who appears in. Is that Jeremy Allen Jabba? Let me see. I also was like, I guess I don't understand what point in his career, Jeremy Allen White is that this is a confusing career marker where you're like, you can be in Star Wars. We're not going to look at you. Yeah. Well, it's like when Daniel Craig plays a stormtrooper who's on screen for like three seconds in one of the sequels. Yeah. But you wouldn't know if that it was him because he's in a stormtrooper. But he was already very famous by that point. But Jeremy Allen Jabba is like second built. He's like a big part of. Yeah. He plays Rota the Hutt, Rota the Hutt. I'm not sure how to pronounce it, but yeah, he's. I'm calling him Jeremy Allen Jabba. That I just was, I don't know why that was so shocking to me. I just don't think of him as Jeremy Allen Jabba. I mean, he contains multitudes. I guess so. Anyway. Anyways, can't wait for Boba Frick. I will be seeing Jeremy Allen Jabba in theaters. Same. Do you want to go together? Oh my gosh. If you'll have me. I will. Okay. Okay. Let's do it. Let's do it. Okay. Back to Fire Strikes Back. We cut to Hoth the Ice Planet. Luke is riding around on his tauntaun creature when the Abominable Snowman attacks and captures him. This is so iconic where you're just like, I didn't know that he could get to wherever this is. It is like right up there with monsters incorporated with places you don't expect to see the Abominable Snowman appear. No, he's around. Yeah. He gets around. He's been around including a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. And so he captures Luke Skywalker. Meanwhile, on the Rebel Base, Han Solo is getting ready to leave to pay off his debt to Jabba the Hutt, father of Jeremy Allen Jabba. And then, the Princess Leia gets wind that Han Solo is planning to leave. And she wants him to stay because he's a valuable asset to the rebellion. And also maybe because she likes him, question mark, we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. But whatever feelings they have for each other, they are unwilling to admit it to each other. And also it's mostly Han Solo being a complete dick. Han realizes that Luke is missing. So he goes out looking for him, cut to Luke in an ice cave, the Abominable Snowman's ice cave, where he uses his Jedi powers that he's been working on to summon his lightsaber and kill the Abominable Snowman. But the Abominable Snowman made an incredible recovery, at least by 2001. In Monsters Inc. To meet Mike Wazowski, yeah. Yes, yes, yes, of course. Luke escapes into the Blizzard. He's freezing to death. He starts Jedi hallucinating and sees a vision of Obi-Wan Kenobi, who tells him to go to the Dagobah system and find Master Yoda so that Luke can complete his Jedi training. Part of the reason that Jedi shit is so fun and has to be so useful as a writer, because it is just having a plot hallucination. A plot-based hallucination. Whenever it's convenient, Obi-Wan Kenobi's ghost, like Force Ghost, will just show up and either deliver some exposition or move the plot forward. And you really don't need, it's not that you don't need to, it's that you're not allowed to ask questions because the very concept of faith is on the line. It's a very high stakes plot device they have there. Yeah, yeah, and good for them. So then Han Solo finds and rescues Luke. They return to the base, where Han continues to be a dick. So Leia kisses Luke to perhaps make Han Solo jealous. Which is one of cinema's most flaccid kisses also, fully, we don't know in this movie, but fully incestual also. Yeah, she kisses her brother, but she doesn't know that they're brother and sister yet. So it's actually kind of cool and fun and flirty. Right, right, right. Okay, so one of Darth Vader's probe droids shows up on the planet Hoth, meaning the Empire knows that the rebel base is there. So the rebels start evacuating, but the Empire launches an attack. There's a big fight scene with Luke and the other rebel pilots battling the Empire and their at-ats, which is also not, they are not named in this movie. I don't know how anyone figured out what they're called, but they're those like giant four-legged things. I love, okay, this is the way that I think about it, unfortunately, but because I have too many pets, but okay, they're called what? I think it's pronounced at-ats, or maybe they're called AT-ATs, but it stands for like all terrain, something, something. So to me, they look like and always have looked like if my Cocker Spaniel, Sonny, fans will know if he got the surgery that Pedro Pascal gets in Materialist. That's what I always... To extend his legs. I was like, that's what it would look like if Sonny got the surgery. I think they're so funny. I don't see them referred to comedically enough. They're too big. They're just too big. They're too tall. They're legs are so lengthy, tall and skinny, and you're just like, the design flaws are abound. Truly, it's so easy for the Rebel pilots to destroy them. They're called all terrain armored transports. I've got notes, but also like it's so... I mean, I'm sure that this happens in actual terrifying, you know, military industrial complex machines where you're just... Where it's just so unbelievably, monstrously inefficient. I mean, one of my favorite things to watch is videos of like AI robots that... Oh my God. There's like a presentation of them. Someone's like unveiling this super high-tech AI robot or whatever kind of robot thing. And then it immediately trips and falls and like breaks apart. Yes, it is so... It hits so hard seeing a Boston robotics thing eat shit. It feels so good to see. It's awesome. My favorite one is it like goes... Well, I don't even know if it goes viral. I also feel old saying goes viral now. I don't know if people say that anymore. But there's that one of, I think it's a Tesla robot trying to like serve a drink and then it just like passes out. It's real fun. Yeah, yeah, I love those videos. Yeah. Okay, fuck them. Fuck them. Yeah, the problem with Star Wars is while it is cool conceptually, you know, robots aren't going to like help us or anything. Yeah. Well, it's always the empire that uses them. That's true. I mean, while droids, I guess are robots. But I think that droids are actually robots. Yeah, they are. Look, it's complicated. It's complicated. It is. It is. Yeah. But anyway, this battle is happening. The rebellion is losing and then Darth Vader shows up at the rebel base just as Han, Leia, Chewie and C3PO managed to escape in the Millennium Falcon. But Star Destroyers and other Imperial ships are chasing and shooting at the Millennium Falcon, which is damaged and can't get to light speed. So they end up in this asteroid field that they have to maneuver through. They enter a cavern on one of the bigger asteroids to hide while Han and Chewie repair the ship. But wait, there's something weird about this asteroid or this cave, but they don't know what's going on yet. Meanwhile, Luke and R2-D2 head to the Dagobah system. They kind of crash land into this spooky bog and they're trying to figure out where they are, where this Yoda character is. I was going to say kind of a bit of a swamp. Like somewhere where Shrek lives? Kind of like somebody could start playing it anytime. Kind of that. Wow. That kind of vibe. And you know, this is a swamp where a green outcast lives. That, and it's interesting and someone should write their thesis paper on why green outcast sort of trend towards these settings. I have, okay, I have a letterbox list that I've been working on. Okay. And it's called something like movies where a character who is green has been cast out by society and lives alone somewhere. Grinch. Oh my God. Grinch. Shrek. Yeah. Wicked. Wicked. Wow. Four. That's official. Yeah. And Yoda. Wow. What's going on? What's going on here? In a way, because there's like the little, I've been, well, whatever, it's Minion season, Kate Lohanite. Well, you don't have to tell me twice. Bello, we're going to, I cannot wait for the new Minions movie, but that's a separate, like little yellow cartoon characters are another whole thing too. Because you've got SpongeBob, you've got Minions, you've got like the list goes on and on. And you're just like, what is it? What does it mean? Someone give me answers. Let's continue to explore this, shall we? Yes. But anyway, Yoda is Shrek, but they don't know that yet. Luke and R2-D2 and they come upon. Unlike Shrek Yoda, to be fair, Yoda is like open to others being at his swamp, but it really depends. He's kind of like if Shrek and Donkey were one character. Yes. Wow. Huge for Yoda. Well, a compliment. Yeah, right, right. Because like Donkey, Yoda is annoying. He's really annoying and always like, but also, you know, wants company so badly. It's true. So Luke is looking for Yoda, but he doesn't know what Yoda looks like or who he is. And he comes upon this weird green little muppety guy. Boy, is it a muppet. It's literally Frank Oz. It's miss Piggies. Yes, yes. And he's super annoying. So Luke is like, what the fuck dude? Leave me alone. I'm trying to find Yoda. And this little guy is like, I am Yoda and you are too impatient, too angry and too old to be a Jedi. You crusty bitch. So here's maybe a controversial thought. Yeah. And it comes with many layers and does tie into our previous prequels research. Yoda, like what a wild swing the character Yoda is conceptually versus how hugely like society embraced Yoda as a character. I think with this in mind, things make a little bit more sense into like the jar jar of it all. Now, I look at how weird and annoying Yoda is in Empire Strikes Back and sort of understand why George Lucas, who is like, not known for really thinking things, thinking how things might be perceived through, Sure. might have thought that jar jar was really going to work. We talk about in the prequel all of the reasons that that may not be the case. But there's precedent for it. Yeah, I feel like people talk about Jar Jar like an annoying character coming out of nowhere in Star Wars is completely out of nowhere thing. But it's like there is precedent and there's precedent of it working. Yeah. But yeah. Shrug. Who knows. Anyway, Yoda is reluctant to teach Luke. But Luke is like, No, teach me please. Teach me daddy. Teach me daddy. Luke always wants a daddy. That's kind of his whole. Yeah, he's obsessed with having a daddy. I mean, to be fair, they keep dying. True. So he thinks. Mmm. Back on the Millennium Falcon, they're working on the ship. They're still trying to repair it. Han Solo continues to be an ass. But Leia quote unquote likes it and they kiss on the lips. And again, we'll talk about it. But then they go outside because some creatures are lurking around and there's again something really weird about this cave, except it's not a cave. It's a giant space worm that they have to fly out of slash narrowly escape from fun. It's fun. This is a great part. Yeah. I love worm. So then we see Darth Vader having a little chat with the emperor about Luke Skywalker, how the force is strong with him and how if they can turn him to the dark side, he could become a powerful ally. And Darth Vader says he will join us or die. And I think one of the things that the Empire Strikes Back has going for it is like not too heavy on the emperor. You really have to have a careful balance of emperor in your Star Wars movie. I feel too much emperor is annoying and or boring. A little bit of empire is fun. I agree. And I think there is too much of the emperor in Return of the Jedi. And also in the prequels and sequels, except in that amazing fight with Samuel L. Jackson. That's the right amount of emperor. Oh my gosh. Yes. There's fun emperor and there's not fun emperor. I like that he's there for a scene. And then we just move on. We move on. Yeah. Okay. So we're talking about the dark side and they're trying to get Luke to come over to it. Back on Dagobah, Yoda has agreed to start training Luke. And so they're doing that. Luke asks about the dark side. Then he goes into this cave where he faces his fears that he will be tempted by the dark side and become someone like Darth Vader. So now we have this like looming thing over Luke. And it's also freshman year philosophy seminar. What's going on in this cave? It's like it's good shit. It's fun. Yeah. Meanwhile, Darth Vader hires a bunch of bounty hunters, including Boba Fett to find the Millennium Falcon. And apparently a lot of people were like, hubba hubba, who's that? And I'm just like, he looks like a fucking anyone else in Star Wars. I don't get it. There is certain like sci-fi fan brain that I just like, I need it really spoon fed to be because I don't understand. I don't necessarily get this one either. I understand that he's like cool, I guess. He's cool. And his costume's cool, but why people glommed on to him so much? I don't know. I don't quite know. If you did or know why, sound off. I'm genuinely curious why this character of all characters. For sure. Okay, so Luke keeps working on his Jedi training, which is mostly just like floating rocks around. He does try to Jedi lift his ship out of the swamp. Luke literally kind of like has a little grad school side quest. Yeah. Yeah, he's like, he's doing a workshop. Yeah, like many, like many grad school courses, you're like, so what is the function of this? I'm sure it'll become clear eventually. And it does. Yes, it does. Anyway, Luke, he can't lift something as heavy as a spaceship out of a swamp, but Yoda does it with relative ease. And Luke is like, oh, shit, I'm a freaking idiot. I still have so much to learn. This muppets awesome. Yeah. And then Luke with his force powers sees a vision of the future, which is Han and Leia in danger. Yeah. So Luke wants to go help them, but Yoda and Obi-Wan's force ghost try to discourage him saying it's a trap and he needs to finish his training and he's being tempted by the dark side, blah, blah, blah. They're like, don't quit grad school. And he's like, don't worry, I'm just going to take a sabbatical. Yeah, he's like, it's just one session. I'll be back. I'll finish my degree. I swear. I swear. So Luke leaves and Obi-Wan says to Yoda, he's like, oh, that boy is our last hope. And then Yoda is like, no, there's another. And we're like, oh my gosh, who is it? Meanwhile, Leia and Han and Chewie and C-3PO arrive in Cloud City where we meet Landal Calrissian. He is an old pal of Hans and also a scoundrel like Han, so not someone they can really trust. And there's definitely something suspicious going on. It turns out that Lando sold them out to Darth Vader. So our friends are imprisoned and tortured. C-3PO is torn to pieces. Han Solo is frozen in carbonite and turned over to Boba Fett. And this is where we have the famous scene of Leia saying, I love you. And Han says, I know. And we're rolling our eyes. And we're just like, all right. A lot of people were irreparably harmed by that line of dialogue. Including me as a child. So I'm not above that. The line that, no, no, it's not being above. It's the line that inspired a million emotionally volatile relationships. Yes. Sad but true. And then Luke shows up to Cloud City and there's a big confrontation between him and Darth Vader. They're lightsaber battling. Vader is like, join me on the dark side. It's really cool over here. Meanwhile, Lando double crosses Darth Vader to then help his friends after all. So Lando, Leia, Chewie, C-3PO, they're running around. They're trying to save Han, but they're too late. And then they have to make an escape from Cloud City because it's being taken over by stormtroopers and everything. We cut back to the lightsaber battle. Darth Vader chops off Luke's hand and then reveals to Luke. Luke, I am your father. And we're like, there it is, a movie about fathers and sons. Yeah. And then it becomes nine movies about fathers and sons. Try as it may to occasionally become other things. That is sort of where we keep going back to. It is ultimately a movie about fathers and sons. Ultimately. I mean, the sequels are ultimately kind of more about Adam Driver and Han Solo than they are about Ray. And the people, they can't decide if they're hurt. They can't decide who Ray's parents are. So it's not about her and her parents. They're like, um, it's the emperor, whatever. I mean, and I'm not the first and only person to make this observation, but the sequel trilogy really suffers from two men having a narrative dick measuring contest with each other. Because it's Ryan Johnson and JJ Abrams being like, no, it's my thing. No, it's my thing. Which is like, you know, annoying and ridiculous, but it's also like, you would think that there would be a system in place that would like decide who is going to do what in advance. It is still so shocking to me. And I, I don't care about the continuity of Star Wars. So I'm not like super worried about it, but it is shocking to me every time I hear how those things played out where it was like, see your plan was to spend like a billion dollars on these movies and you didn't want to decide in advance who was going to do what and when and if they agreed with each other about a single thing. Like that is kind of like, it's almost awesome how, how like ridiculous it is. I guess it's, you could see it as encouraging the, the huge corporation of Disney who. They let Ryan Johnson do his thing, but like, they're giving creative control to the filmmakers, but at what cost. Right. But then they can't decide if they like regret doing that or not. I don't know. I, there's been so much discussion over the, the sequels, but what it, what does seem interesting to me after just like rewatching this and watching the prequels and, you know, not having quite as firm a grip on the sequels, but it's like, it is. Sort of different versions of the same cultural biases that become an issue every single time with this franchise. They never, they're always promising. They're about to course correct. And they just kind of, it seems like outside of like ancillary series like and or out of like non feature entries to the franchise. They never really quite managed to do it. Yeah, definitely. Si. Okay. So Darth Vader has just told Luke that he is Luke's father and Luke is like, oh my God, what? No. Obi-Wan Kenobi told me that you murdered my father. That bitch is a liar. Yep. It's funny in return of the Jedi, Obi-Wan's force ghost appears again and Luke confronts him about lying to him. And Obi-Wan's, Obi-Wan's explanation is like, well, if you just like really interpret it very weirdly, actually what I told you was true. So it was just shut up. I'm just saying stuff, whatever. Okay. So Vader wants Luke to join him so that they can rule the galaxy as father and son. And Luke is like pass. And he like drops into the abyss and ends up like dangling from an antenna or something in Cloud City. And he's like, somebody help me. Leia, help. And Leia, who is flying away with the others in the Millennium Falcon, here's Luke's call because maybe the force is strong with her also. So they turn around and rescue Luke and they're trying to get away, but the falcons hyperdrive is still fucked up so they can't get to light speed. And Luke is having a force conversation with Vader about joining the dark side. He's literally having a job interview on like over the zoom force, force zoom. Yeah, exactly. Then our 2D2 fixes the hyperdrive and they escape and then make arrangements to go rescue Han Solo from Jabba the Hutt on Tatooine, which will happen in the next movie. Wee! And that's the movie. So let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Yeah. And we're back. Well, Caitlin, I mean, birthday privileges. Where would you like to begin this discussion? Oh my gosh. Well, I feel like it makes sense to start as we often do with some context. I did some research on Lee Brackett. And if you're wondering, huh, who's that? Well, I didn't know. Let us tell you. I didn't know before researching for this episode. It was a delightful little journey because Luke, sorry, George Lucas is simply so synonymous. Oh my God. Wait, is that why his name is Luke? Yeah, I just did like a Freudian slip. It's like if I named my protagonist Loft, you're like, you know, Loft. My last name is Loft. This has nothing to do with it. Loft Skywalker. It's like a CVS Luke Skywalker. Wow. I never connected those dots, but maybe. Wow. Are we the first? I would Star Wars. I never believe anyone's the first person to make an observation, but what if we were? Who knows? Yeah. Anyway, what I was trying to say is that George Lucas is so synonymous with Star Wars and its conception that people tend to forget who else was involved in the making of these movies. Right. So of course, the first movie, Episode four was written and directed by George Lucas, but Empire Strikes Back was directed by Irvin Kirschner and the screenplay was written by Lawrence Kasdan and drumroll please a woman. Bam, bam, bam, bam. Lee Brackett is her name. Which would that ever happen again? No, I don't think so. Wow. Really good guys. Great job guys. And Lee Brackett has a kind of fascinating life story. Do you, I mean, do you want to take it away? Because she passes unfortunately before the movie comes out. Yeah. Yeah. So here's the research I did. If you have anything extra, please chime in. Lee Brackett was one of the most prominent woman writers during the golden age of sci-fi. So like the 40s and 50s, I think primarily, she was known as the queen of space opera. She wrote a bunch of sci-fi novels and short stories throughout her career. She also has numerous screenwriting credits, including The Big Sleep, The Long Goodbye, and Wild. Right? Like crossing genres too. Totally. And she worked on an early draft of Empire Strikes Back. So what happened here is that Lucas approached her. George Lucas reached out to her, right? Yeah. Yes, he approached her. Because it was like George Lucas was a big enough sci-fi fan that I'm sure that he was aware of her. Totally. Yeah. And what I read was something to the effect of he didn't like love building out the world of Star Wars and like figuring out all the lore. So he's like, let me find a sci-fi writer who's been doing this for decades. Who loves lore. And bring her in. Yeah. Yeah. So he approaches Lee Brackett and in late 1977, they come together and basically like put the pieces of this story together for the sequel to Star Wars. So cool. George Lucas had some core ideas in mind, but he wanted Lee Brackett to kind of form them together into a cohesive story. So she went off, she wrote a draft and turned it into George Lucas. However, she was sick with cancer and by the time he like kind of came back to her with notes on her draft, she was hospitalized and she died a few weeks later. Very young too. She was in her 60s. Yeah. Yeah. So thinking of just like how, especially when you get past a certain point in history, but this is 1980. It's pretty ridiculous how infrequently women writers are acknowledged or remembered because I mean, and this is not a dig at Lawrence Casten whose work I really love, but like everyone knows who Lawrence Casten is. And part of this is that apparently there's this kind of phenomenon where people generally acted like nothing from Lee Brackett's draft appeared in the final film. And so people just kind of weren't really talking about her and her contributions to the story. Which is especially, that makes me frustrated on the George Lucas side of things, particularly because they know she's like not around to advocate for herself. Yeah, totally. So it is just like kind of a full erasure. And for many years, her draft of the screenplay was available to read, but it was only available to read at a library in New Mexico and only there. So it was hard to get your hands on until 2016 when it was published. And so I would be interested in reading it. I have not read that draft of the script, but for those who have read it, the consensus seems to be that many of the basic story beats between Lee Brackett's draft and the final film are more or less the same. There are a few differences such as the love triangle between Luke, Leia and Han is far more prominent in her draft. In her draft, Luke has a secret sister named Nellith. Oh, I remember learning this in my women of Star Wars research last year. Nellith, the character who would never be. Nice try. Right. Oh, you wanted to write another woman in the movie? Well, too bad. Oh, well, you're going to have to wait another 20 years and don't worry. We're going to write her out immediately. Yeah. We won't give her parents. We'll never figure out who her parents are. Another difference was in Lee Brackett's draft, Luke's father and Darth Vader are separate characters, and then there's some other minor differences here and there. I mean, yeah, that's to be fair. No offense to our friend Lee. That's a pretty big change. If that's a Lawrence Kasdan idea, Darth Vader being the father, kind of crucial. Fair, yes, for sure. But I think people were sort of acting like her entire draft was scrapped. Right. And they basically started from scratch. But like Lawrence Kasdan was building on her work. Precisely. And so, and I'm paraphrasing a piece from the Den of Geek website, but in her draft, there is a battle on Hoth. The flying through the asteroid field sequence is there, as is the city in the clouds, various unexpected betrayals, the climactic duel between Luke and Darth Vader. So like so much of her. I mean, that's massive. Yeah. So was she, I mean, and I did not watch the credits when I was doing my rewatch. Is she credited by name in the original movie or is it just Lawrence Kasdan? She is credited. She is. Okay. That's good. Because I think that there's like, in general, a like, still to this day, cultural misunderstanding of like how writing for TV and film works. Where it's, well, I feel like there's a cultural misunderstanding because it is unclear in many cases. And you've talked about this on the show before where like your name will be on an episode that you didn't actually write that version of the script or you did write a script and then you are not credited because X, Y, Z reason. So there's like all these. So it's like the, the crediting system is very weird because the crediting to some extent is just done to justify how money is distributed between writers, which is very confusing as well. Like the WGA crediting conventions are really confusing. But like, even all that aside, like, like you're saying, the fact that one writer is credited disproportionately kind of undercuts the whole point of like how it works, which is like that they're, even if they're not working together at the exact same time, which they weren't, right, they're still collaborating and that it ends up being kind of this genderless dick measuring contest that mysteriously writers who are not cis men tend to lose. Almost always. Yeah. As evidenced by what we both said, which is that we were not aware that a woman named Lee Brackett wrote a draft of this movie. I've been watching this movie for over three decades. Was this your first time hearing it for? I didn't know if it was like, I, wow. Yeah. That's ridiculous. And that it took until 2016 for, you know, that to become even knowledge that we could have because it's like truly without, and this is like where fan communities are, can be amazing is like without people willing to go to the library in New Mexico. Right. It's like people's, her contributions could have been downplayed for decades to come. Yeah. So her contributions to the film are undeniable, but her work is often completely overlooked because people are just like, yeah, George Lucas and Lawrence Kasdan. Duh. And it is at that point, I think particularly on George Lucas to emphasize her contributions. And I think that that that failure to do so is something that we're allowed to be pissed off at. For sure. So shout out to Lee Brackett. RIP, our friend Lee Brackett. Yes. So, so with that in mind, let's talk about the movie, although there's a little bit more of, I think, behind the scenes stuff regarding Leia slash Carrie Fisher that will kind of dovetail into perhaps a discussion about Princess Leia. Yes. I should have said that during my Star Wars. My biggest connection to Star Wars is I love Carrie Fisher. Yes. More so than anything else. Yeah. No, she was so awesome. Gifted writer. RIP to her as well. Just amazing. God, I want to live in a world where Carrie Fisher was allowed a crack at any Star Wars script. I know. Like a proper crack at it. Right. And you may or may not know that Carrie Fisher was a highly sought after script doctor for a while and she would be hired to fix or polish or punch up scripts. But that was after she was in the original Star Wars trilogy. Right. Okay. So Carrie Fisher, like was pretty open about like saying that she was having a hard time connecting to her character Leia. She found her to be pretty one dimensional. She joked that basically the only thing she knew about Leia was that she likes to wear white clothes. You're like, Hey, so that's actually not a character. That's not. And we know from the diaries that Carrie Fisher kept at the time of filming these movies that she was envious of Harrison Ford because he was allowed to rewrite dialogue for Han Solo often on the fly. So that he would never have to actually learn how to act. And that's my, I'm not a, I'm not a Harrison Ford fan. I think he's obviously like undeniably, he's got Riz, all that stuff. But it's like, well, yeah, because he can't do anything else. So of course he's going to need the dialogue. He doesn't have range. No, that is many movies. Stars don't, but still. Yeah. So a prime example of this is during the scene where Leia says, I love you and Harrison Ford improvised the I know response. So he was doing that from time to time on set, just kind of rewriting his lines and doing whatever he felt like. However, director Irvin Kirschner would not allow Carrie Fisher to do something similar. But what she did do was just kind of make a bunch of notes for herself, for the Leia character in an attempt to kind of provide some extra characterization and context that this script doesn't really provide. The script didn't do. Yeah. This was discovered when her copy of Empire Strikes Back was like put up for auction. She's so amazing. I believe after her death. Yes, I saw this as well. And a lot of her notes for herself was something along the lines of men are so disappointing. And so that is something that it is so, I don't know, it's so cool watching actors. It's just like every time you see, and this isn't, I mean, this movie is a great movie. But every time you see an amazing performance in a movie that you're like, how the hell did you manage to do a great performance in this like otherwise kind of boring movie? It's because of stuff like that. It's so cool that like she had to create a character where a character didn't exist because she cared. Yeah. It's awesome, dude. I love it. I know. I know. If only any of the actors did that in the prequel trilogy. Well, let's not blame the actors in the prequel trilogy. We know who the problem was. Yes. But like, I think Ewan McGregor in the prequel trilogy is a great example of someone giving like an amazing performance in like pretty boring movies. I agree. Yeah, I was thinking of Samuel L. Jackson, who is one of the most prolific actors of our time. And he gives the flattest, dullest performance imaginable. But I'm not blaming that on him because iconic director George Lucas sucks at directing and doesn't like people or actors or apparently you just told me writing. So so so you're an editor, man. He's a special effects guy. He's a special effects whiz. Yeah. And that's why he made the Star Wars movies. Yeah, which is all good. But it is funny to learn like, oh, and he also hated writing. I was like, OK, he hated actors and writing and directing. And directing. Cool. Yeah. Anyway, so Carrie Fisher through her performance helps to give Princess Leia more characterization than she otherwise had. I think it's a huge reason why I always connected to the Princess Leia character. I always admired her. I think it's one of the reasons I like this trilogy so much. She's doing so much with so little. She's amazing. Yes. However, she still is the only woman in the galaxy. Yeah, it's I mean, and I have to be willing to criticize my faves, too. It's kind of like Minion's vibes. It's it's every setting in the original Star Wars trilogy has Minion's rules, has full on Smurf rules. Yes. Yeah, there is only one woman and we're not allowed to ask where the others went. It's still just her. But I mean, in that there is, well, it's it's interesting because I'm curious what you think. I think that Leia I also feel this way about Episode four. But I think more so about this movie. She is a very active character. She is a character with a lot of power and a lot of agency. And while she is not always the person making the most active decision in from scene to scene, she is always a part of the action. It's something I really appreciate about her. I think that sometimes, especially kind of older Star Wars fans will use that very true fact as a way to dismiss some of the more stereotypical aspects of Leia to be like, I mean, I encountered this today and I was like, OK, where they're like, it doesn't matter if she's the only woman because she welded in that scene, you know, like you're just like, OK, we've got we've got to be able to hold a couple of things at once here because I love that she welded. We celebrate that she welded. What was she doing? We don't know. And no one could tell us. But like, yeah, she's always actively involved. But to be fair, when like Han and Chewie are welding the ship, I also don't have any fucking clue what they're doing. Well, that's that's what I mean. It's like she's doing she's doing space science. I just think it's funny that like the sort of tokenism around gender that exists in this trilogy, I think for big fans, they're sometimes like, you can't say it's not feminist. She welded. I was like, yeah, but has she met another woman before? Has she met another woman? Are the questions like she's a part of a love triangle because I'm really sloppy romantic interests. Sloppiest love triangle's ever written. Yeah. But yeah, like I rewatched episode four as well, just to see if there were any significant differences between how she's framed in the first movie versus this sequel. And I think the main difference is that in episode four, she I wouldn't even say primarily, but she is like the princess who has to be rescued. Yeah. And they kind of drop the more princessy elements of her in this, I thought. I don't know. I agree. No, I totally agree. And even though, even though she has to be rescued, I would almost argue that in that movie, she isn't necessarily damseled the way other damsels in distress will be treated because she's taken as a political prisoner rather than like a woman love interest being captured to raise the stakes for the male protagonist. And she's taken as a political prisoner because she's suspected of rebel activity, which she was doing because she was putting the plans to the Death Star into R2D2. OK. So unlike most other women who become damsels in a movie, she was actually doing something to impact the direction of the plot. And then as soon as she's released from captivity, she jumps right back into the action, which also we tend not to see in a typical damsel situation. So I think from the jump, she has been written as a character who is a very significant part of the narrative, the action, the beats that move the story forward. And she's always it's also that she's always been a like revolutionary general, which also remains to be true. I mean, I think throughout the rest of her time in the series, like in the sequels as well. Yeah. And so, you know, we could talk about the the girl boss optics of becoming a military general, sure. But, you know, I think for the military for the resistance for the revolution. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So I just I don't know. I appreciated that, you know, two things are true here. And I think also to build on because we covered episode four, we should recover it because we recovered it one of the I remember I was late because I was working at Playboy and it was 10 years ago when we first did that episode. It's our first episode that appears in our feed. Yeah. So for now, for now. But yeah, I mean, I feel like she, you know, I love that she's a revolutionary. I love that she, you know, I think maybe 10 years ago, it was like, well, we don't want any love stories. And now I think, you know, the show has grown to be like, no, it's not that. It's that it really depends on what the love story is. And like, so let's talk about that. Yes, let's talk about it. OK, so Han is in love with Leia, but he cannot be vulnerable enough to directly communicate that to her. Yeah. Presumably because he's afraid of rejection. So in episode four, Han has a conversation with Luke about how like, oh, would a princess ever get with a scrappy guy like me? So he's afraid of a class based rejection, it seems. But instead of, you know, being vulnerable and communicative about his feelings, he necks her, he projects onto her. There are all these scenes toward the beginning where he's like, you want me to stay because of the way you feel about me. Yeah, he's like, I'm handsome and awesome. It's it's the Bushemi test vibe of just like he and and what's interesting. And I don't think we could have talked about this when we talked about a new hope, because I don't think it was out yet. We now know, we just talked about this on Zyke Guys the other day, that Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford had an affair with a significant age gap. She was a teenager and he was in his early thirties on the set of A New Hope, not this movie, but that again, just like speaking to how aggressively Han Solo mirrored who Harrison Ford was. A lot of the issues Leia is having with Han in this movie are issues that Carrie Fisher was having in like trying to have this relationship with Harrison Ford of like being emotionally inaccessible, of being dismissive, of, you know, doing all these things that I think men are socialized to be permitted to do and women are socialized to tolerate. For sure. So we have Han Solo not treating Leia well because of his insecurities of being rejected by someone he loves. Now with Leia, it's telegraphed to us that she has feelings for him as well, but also doesn't want to admit it, perhaps also for a class based reason, like a social status thing where she might think he's beneath her or something. Or maybe because he's kind of an asshole. Being a dick. It's like when you're really attracted to someone who is an asshole and you're like, maybe best to just keep this as a crush. Yes. And to Leia's credit, she is always pushing back against him when he's being a dick. She's calling him delusional. She calls him a stuck up, half witted, scruffy looking nerf herder. An iconic line. But she it is very like we're never meant to fully believe that. And I think that the reason we're not supposed to fully believe that is because of how you're socially conditioned long before you're sitting in the theater. Right. And yes. So it's like one of those tricky things where I think there was like an era of media criticism where it would be like Star Wars did this. And it's like, well, no, Star Wars didn't do this, but Star Wars reflected this to a very young audience. Yeah, Star Wars didn't invent this, but it did perpetuate it. Yeah. And in a way that like, I mean, you only need to visit a forum or two to understand that some people really took this mentality quite seriously. Yes. Yeah. OK, so then there's the kiss scene. Yeah. This is when Leia is welding, a.k.a. doing the most feminist thing ever. Women be well. Oh my God. It is different for when I think we talked about this forever ago. What Julia Roberts movie is it where we were like, oh, the the rom-com trope where like we know that she's she's going to get the guy at the end if she like fixes the car at some point. Oh, yeah. It's like the mechanic trope to be like, I'm I'm a girl that's more doing more traditionally masculine things. Therefore, I'm not like other girls. I'm I'm cool. Yes, it happens in a lot of movies. Actually, I don't think this is when Leia is welding. She's just doing some other repair work on the Millennium Falcon. Anyway, not important. Yeah, she's fully involved at every step of the action. Yes. Yes. Han comes in as she's like doing this repair work. He starts immediately invading her personal space, trying to either like take over what she's doing or help. She shoves him off. He starts condescending to her, calling her a nickname that she doesn't like. He's touching her hands intimately. She's telling him to stop that. He keeps inching his face closer and closer to hers. He has also backed her into a corner so she cannot like get away. It is the most Harrison Ford romantic scenario. I mean, truly it is the most Harrison Ford romantic scenario that exists. But like just in terms of being textbook murky consent, the whole premise relies on it being Harrison Ford in a movie. Yes, exactly. Like he's charismatic and rugged. So obviously anyone's going to want to kiss him is the idea. So he's close to her. They exchange a few more words and then he interrupts her with a kiss. Their kiss is interrupted when C3PO comes in and then as Han is talking to him, Leia sneaks away. As far as the kiss itself, it's also murky because it's like, OK, I wouldn't classify it as a surprise kiss because she also goes in for the kiss, but only because she is written in such a way that she's like relenting to him, basically. And the scene feels quite coercive. Yes. He has treated her badly up until this point and continues to like neg her after this. And also, I think that it is like a tricky. Like even if we are to believe that the character like that, you know, I do think that like obviously Carrie Fisher is like giving a performance where it's like, oh, she's attracted to Han. But to be clear, which I mean, we know we're fully appreciate the choir here, but that like being attracted to someone does not entitle them to do anything to you physically. Yes, of course. So like again, it's just like it's a lot of murky logic that this movie is like assuming we're all on board with. Totally. Because you can read it as either like he wears her down until which is like also doesn't feel like quite it either. Like there's just this like, I don't know how to describe exactly what's going on because it's because it could be like actually she secretly likes it when he mistreats her and nags her in many scenes. Yeah, we don't know exactly what it is, but it's not good. And it's a lot of like again, it's like it's a lot of tropes that like it's that this is just one of the most famous examples of it. Reminds me of our conversation around like when we redid our Twilight episode not too long ago of the idea of like fantasy fulfillment and yeah. But how murky a conversation that becomes like where if like you if this scene affected you in a way that like you're like, oh, that's such a hot scene. Like that that's not an irrational reaction based on how people are socialized. You know, it's just right. Well, because like, I mean, it's it's complicated by the fact that there is this like there is a trope that like, well, women want to be ravaged by a masculine either man or beast. Right. That's a pervasive trope throughout literature. But then some women do kind of want that. Right. Well, yeah, it's right. It's just like presenting it that like whatever, like not everyone wants that. And some people do want that. But this story beat tends to I mean, it's like kind of just like Fabio on the cover of a paperback novel thing they're doing here. I mean, that's literally what the like the movie poster looks like with the two of them. For sure. He's like kind of looming above her. She's like, if I'm remembering it correctly, like she's got her head kind of thrown back. Cocked back. It yeah, I mean, it evokes a lot of romance novel stuff. And so it's hard to know what to do with because I think that for for me, it's like it's mainly how young like the general audience for these movies were. Yeah. In a way that I think we've seen in the way that like the fandom has sort of played out over the decades that there are some positive takeaways, right? Where it's like Leia is a like very powerful, outspoken woman who is always a member of the action who is still subject to these romantic tropes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And like, let me know what you think about this, but in various scenes, when we're seeing her making strategic decisions about what the Rebel Alliance should do, she's giving orders to people, parentheses, men, because yeah, it's just a bunch of men. They respect her authority. They don't question her choices. So it almost seems like even though there is a dearth of women in the Galaxy or at least in the Rebel Alliance and the Empire, there doesn't really seem to be like systemic space sexism against her. No, which feels very much like borrowed from like Star Trek, where, you know, we are also to believe that there isn't space racism. Right. But also that doesn't stop Star Wars from being subject to all of the race associated tropes that existed in the US in 1980. Yes. And we'll talk about Landau Karizian. I'm pretty sure we will. But yeah, there aren't these like systemic, like these systems of oppression and bias, really. It's just like individual men being shitty to Leia, such as Han Solo and Landau Karizian. That's what makes it kind of like, again, like this bizarro cultural artifact where, you know, we're being told we're in a world where women can easily be, you know, unquestionably in power and powerful. But how can we hold that being true with Leia still being treated like a woman might have been treated in 1980 in the US? Like, you know, it's just, again, it's like it's not a problem specific to this movie or franchise, but, you know, you certainly do feel the reverberations of this kiss and this relationship dynamic, the I love you, I know, which is like, you know, I got to hand it to whichever writer wrote it. It's a snappy fucking, or I guess Harrison Ford. Harrison Ford impopted on set. It's a snappy line of dialogue, and it like tells you who this character is. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, it is obviously like a very particular melodramatic dynamic that in a movie that I think is pushing back on gender archetypes with Leia in some ways, it really doesn't romantically or with this love triangle that becomes increasingly incoherent as they're changing their mind between movies, which I guess is what Star Wars is always done. Yeah, it really represents a relationship model that so many men thought they should follow, so many women thought they had to follow for like, for what a burgeoning romance was supposed to look like. And again, I fell for it. And it does feel like, well, we don't need to get into it too much today, but how, you know, every feminist movement comes with a period of backlash, some of which is over, some of which is like a little more subtle. And I think that like, at every step of feminist representation in media, because Leia is to many an iconic feminist character that for many of these characters, especially in like bigger projects, it's like they can have power to a point or in certain arenas, but in other arenas, they have to remain submissive and okay with blah, blah, blah, blah. But then that, you know, that is a little bit in conflict with the fantasy fulfillment. It's just, we're not Luke, we're not at Jedi grad school, but it is really interesting, because I think that we're having a very different conversation about this now than we would have when the show started. That's true. It's true. Well, growth. Growth, we love to see it. Well, happy birthday to me. And speaking of age, you already mentioned this, but the Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher age gap, because I believe she was was at 19 and he was in his early 30s. Yes, she was an adult, but she was still quite young. Yeah, not so not illegal, but not good. And so yeah, he is pretty significantly older than her. And married also. Oh, right. Oh my God. Yeah. I forgot about that. For the sake of their relationship in this movie, it's a classic case of, you know, a Hollywood age difference where the woman is far younger because society hates older women. And once again, happy 40th birthday to me. Which like, which luckily Carrie Fisher had no shortage of things to say about when she was younger and when she was older. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it is it is like so unquestioningly like to the point where like I had to I had to have it pointed out to me when I was first watching Star Wars, where you're like, yeah, he's visibly so much older than her. And I was like, yeah, I guess I'm just used to seeing that. Right. But yes, I don't do you have any other thoughts on Leia and this? I mean, the other thoughts I have on her are generally quite complimentary. Like I I just I love this is my favorite movie for her. Just a few things such as in this movie, she's never damseled, but she is instrumental in saving Luke at the end, which normally we don't see that her costuming does not sexualize her, which or objectify her. I mean, that's a different conversation in Return of the Jedi. But in this movie, I was also thinking about Padme, who I've spent a lot of time thinking about we both have, and how, you know, not it again, not saying this to be like super complimentary, but it was, it is interesting to observe how the state of the Western feminist movement is reflected throughout whatever over like basically half a century through these movies. Because somehow in 2000, we're in a worse position than we were in 1980, which was also just culturally true, where, you know, between the second and third movies in this and the original trilogy and the sequel, the original trilogy, we decide that well, and Return of the Jedi, we have the whole job, but thing. But we decide that Leia is more powerful than we could have possibly conceived of. She is a Jedi, and she has access to the Force, whereas in the prequels, Padme gets an unbelievable character downgrade between movies two and three. She is more a part of the action than she'll ever be in part two. It isn't saying that much. And then in part three, she's just weeping in a room the whole time. She's pregnant. She's going to be dead soon. Yeah. It's just like it's it's she's really left in the trenches. So it is yeah, I do appreciate that Leia is being set up for a rocky third movie, but a movie in which she will continue to be, I don't know, I haven't I didn't watch Return of the Jedi before this. I know she has sidelined for a significant part of the third movie. So maybe it's just tradition. Right. I also didn't rewatch it for this so it's not super fresh in my mind. But again, we'll just cover it my next birthday. But yeah, I love Leia. And even though I understand why, at least during the filming of this movie, Carrie Fisher was kind of lukewarm on her. Get it lukewarm? I wonder if I've made that joke before. I feel certain you have. I understand why she's a beloved character. And yes, I love her. And that so much of that has to do with Carrie Fisher. Yes, I also love Leia. And I think this is like of the three movies kind of like the best showcase of what's great about her character. Mm hmm. Shall we talk about Lando Calrissian? Let's talk about our friend Lando. I don't have a whole awful lot to say, but similar to how Leia is the only woman in the galaxy, Lando is the only black person in the galaxy, at least with lines of dialogue that we yeah, which is and again, this is another like, I think Star Wars fan cope with all due respect, if there's members of the community listening, that people are like, well, James Earl Jones is a black actor. You're like, I well, come on. Yeah, but we never don't see him. And when you do see him, he's a white guy. He's a white guy. And he's canonically Hayden Christensen. So that actually does not defy like well, well, James Earl Jones, you know, is the most iconic cast member arguably in the entire fridge eyes, like, we can't be making that sort of argument. Right. I have a little bit to say about Lando who also is like, Billy Dee Williams is just like, so amazing. Yeah, I was looking for a little background in how he is character is and there was a fair amount written about Lando as a character when solo came out. And then I think that conversation promptly stopped because no one saw that movie. But that's speak for yourself. I saw it in theaters twice for some reason. There are dozens of you. But Donald Glover plays young Lando Calrissian in that prequel movie. And so anyways, there was like a brief period of time in 2018, where black cultural writers were reflecting on the legacy of Lando. So this is pulling from a slash film article from 2018 by Monique Jones, Pimpin in Space, the black exploitation roots of Lando Calrissian, in which she kind of traces, she mentions something that George Lucas is always he's like, Star Wars isn't racist. And I'm like, okay, if you have to say it, maybe you need because Star Wars famously, I mean, and again, like if we're thinking about Star Wars in a longer timeline, this is something that the franchise makes steps towards but never actually meaningfully improves on because you think about how John Boyega was rightfully speaking out during the sequel trilogy about how severely scaled back his character was and how he was erased from promotional materials in certain countries that were extremely racist against black people. So same thing with the Jar Jar Binks of it all and all of the racist tropes present in Jar like it just well, I was also going to say the Rose character played by Kelly Marie Tran. She was the recipient of so much racist vitriol. Yeah, when her character was introduced. And then she was completely sidelined in Rise of Skywalker. Yeah, this is historically I mean, this happens in movies quite a bit with actors of color that are initially cast in large roles. This is certainly the case consistently in main Star Wars franchises without fail. I mean, the fact that Samuel L. Jackson turned in a mid performance, you're like, something's going on here. Something's not right. But with Lando, who is the first significant black character in the Star Wars franchise ever. Yeah, Monique Jones talks about the cultural ideas around blackness that are being pulled from to create this character. So something I wasn't sure about but is true is that Lando Calrissian was always envisioned as a black character and was also always envisioned as Billy D. Williams specifically. I guess George Lucas was a fan. So like in his original notes, he was like Billy D. Williams. So this part was kind of written for him. But it's pulling on a series of tropes, and specifically the black exploitation movies of the 70s. So quote Lando further defines the mainstream image of blackness as being one synonymous with coolness and slickness. But with that image comes negative associations of blackness being shifty, dangerous and untrustworthy. It's unclear if Lucas was directly inspired by black exploitation, but black'sploitation's pervasiveness certainly informs Lando's character from the cape to his rogueish personality. There's a reason that many fans refer to Lando as a pimp in space. In Just Looks Alone, Lando fits in with the sweet, sweet pacts, dolomites and superflies who preceded him. The iconography of the pimp is one of the lasting controversial effects of black exploitation popularity. The image is emblazoned in our minds, a charismatic black man with perm straight hair, a flashy hat and equally flashy clothes. A fur or cape of some kind was always in the mix. Lando too has relaxed hair, assaunter, and expensive looking blue cape lined with luxurious gold fabric complete with a gold neck chain. Looking at Lando from a black exploitation perspective, the character continues in the tradition of updating the trickster persona via the pimp. Even though Lando is in a galaxy in which racism doesn't exist, his costuming and his cape in particular calls back to the movie pimps of the recent past of the time, showing the audience he has the mystique that the other white characters can't quite replicate or understand. His clothes exemplify his ability to work outside the system that is still, despite it being in a galaxy far far away, set and run by white people. In this way as well, Lando's character harkens back to black exploitation. His individual acts of resistance, such as tricking Han and working with Darth Vader with the goal of securing cloud city's protection, are quote, conceived in confusion and executed in panic. He doesn't stop to think how his double crossing would have come back to cross him. All he knows are the ways of the swindler, despite his role as a government leader. His trickster ways are tied to his blackness and whether or not Luke has realized this, he still gave his critics ammunition against him, despite his inclusion of a black character. So it's a very interesting piece. She also later goes on to review how Lando's character is addressed in solo, which isn't relevant here. But we haven't really talked about the black exploitation genre in any deep way here. And I wanted to just acknowledge that that was a very, very thoroughly discussed. And people are of so many minds about it. Genre that was, you know, sort of at its height in the 70s. And that you can see its influence on Lando Calrissian. But what every analysis of Lando, like it always ends, including this piece, ends with that said, I love Lando Calrissian and he's really cool. And Billy Dee Williams is awesome. And Lando rocks. And I think that both of these things are true. That like, you know, yeah. And what is also true is, and this is part of the, you know, like, smooth talker, like, black exploitation inspired characterization of him, you might call him a smooth talker, or you might say that he's being a creep toward Leia, because he's always being like, I mean, I mean, we have here. And I think in that way, he's being a creep in the same way Han is a creep. This is true. Like, yes, they're just both creepy guys who found each other, like many creepy guys. And that said, I do love Lando Calrissian. So yeah, it's complicated. I really think everyone loves, I mean, I don't know, I was not in my admittedly, kind of like not deep research, but I was not able to find any Lando Calrissian haters. Yeah, I don't which is all Billy Deeble. I mean, like Billy Dee Williams is so awesome. Yeah, for sure. So anyways, yeah, I do think that there, even though George Lucas has resisted any racial analysis of this character, obviously, it is there, it has been discussed quite a bit. And again, there's like the classic Star Wars tokenism for this character that also exists for Leia where in the entire galaxy, there is one black person and one woman. And she of course is white. And for for many classic films, this was the way the world worked. I do appreciate with Lando, it's like, it's impossible to I think impossible to dislike him by the end of the movie. And I do appreciate that we are given context for why he's doing what he's doing. He's not double crossing Han and Leia because that's just who he is out of like spite or malice. Yeah, no, it's a survival based decision. Does it I there are many implications that come with that, but I did appreciate that like you are given a clear reason, not just why he does it, but why he is later forgiven. Right, because the first chance he gets, he double crosses Darth Vader and tries to help his friends. So and then appears again in Return of the Jedi as one of the crew. I mean, well, speaking to that, speaking to like a choice of survival, something we didn't talk about, I don't think on our first Star Wars, like our new hope episode, but the fact that I don't even know if I was there. No idea. Yeah, I also think that might have been one of the episodes where you kind of didn't watch the movie. Yeah, I didn't think podcasting was going to be a job. I just thought we were just I we're chilling having fun. Yeah. But the anti imperial nature of this whole franchise, right, I think it's best handled in Andor. It's very, very simplified, I think in the original trilogy where it's just sort of like Empire Bad, Rebel Alliance, good guys. Well, and it's like the first trilogy is really clearly pulling on World War Two stuff. I mean, it's like, you know, in a way that I feel like, I don't know, I'm not trying to hand it to George Lucas with the subtlety of his storytelling. But some of like the visuals are so overt that it feels like you don't that they're like sort of electing you to fill in the blanks on your own based on your knowledge of what would have then been like pretty recent history. But oh yeah, yeah, if you look at like side by side footage from this original trilogy and footage from World War Two battles, like the parallels are visible. But this is why I like Andor so much because it examines in a far more nuanced way what a fascist empire looks like and what it does, what a revolution against that looks like, how a resistance movement ignites, and the complicated figures who are participating in it along the way. Yeah. So everyone should watch Andor. But then it's like to do that. Watch it illegally because Disney Plus is the worst. That's the thing is now like you have to make, well, you don't have to also you don't have to. You don't have to make anti fascist content for the fascist. But like, you know, there are there are many, like for a certain budget, people are forced to put themselves or to forced to choose to be in that position. Yeah, it's a whole thing. Anyways, Andor is good. Andor is great. The last thing I wanted to touch on was just a little bit about the Jedi. Oh, are we talking religion? Like ideology. Okay. And we talked a bit about this in our prequels episode as well. But I wanted to talk a little bit more about the kind of like philosophy and ideology of the Jedi. There is a video essay from pop culture detective agency, which we might have cited this specific essay before. But it's about how even though the Jedi in these movies are portrayed as these like wise, heroic protectors of the galaxy, they actually represent a rather toxic version of masculinity because a huge part of their ethos is suppressing your feelings, emotional vulnerability equals weakness. And because most Jedi nights are men, especially in the first two trilogies, we can see the parallels between Jedi ideology and patriarchal conditioning in our galaxy in our world. Yeah, it gets more into the Jedi lore, I guess, in the prequel trilogy. Because the reason Anakin is seduced by the dark side is because he makes the mistake of having feelings and of having deep connections with women, both his mother and his beloved Padme. Right. And that's what inevitably leads him to the dark side, which you could read as commentary on like, look what horrible things happen when men are discouraged from freely feeling their emotions. But the prequels do not frame it that way really. No, the prequels, the prequels kind of, I think if we're operating in, and I think that that is actually a good reason people don't, like, because there's some reasons people don't like the prequels that are annoying, and some that are valid, which is that like this whole spiritual encouragement to connect with one's emotions to have a clearer perspective of the world and to meditate and all these things that are demonstrably good is retconned to be this like weirdo. It's just like over-explaining and kind of undercuts what makes it so interesting in the first place and what makes it possible for viewers to kind of take on for themselves in a positive way. Right, because going back to the specific movie we're discussing today, I think that one of the things that distinguishes Luke Skywalker from his father, Anakin slash Darth Vader, is that Luke kind of rejects this part of Jedi ideology. And we see this in a scene where Luke sees that like future vision of Han and Leia being in danger, possibly about to die, and he wants to go save them. And Yoda and Obi-Wan's ghost, which are his Jedi trainers, are like, no, who cares about your friends? You have to stay here and finish your Jedi training. And Luke is like, yeah, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to sacrifice my loved ones. Which to be fair, I guess, knowing the events of the prequels helps that moment hit a little harder where you realize that like Yoda and Obi-Wan are kind of like beating the same drum until Luke proves them otherwise. Sure, yeah, I guess. But it's all over the place. It's all over the place. I do like that. And that like multiple things end up being true where like Luke does is right to go and rescue his friends. And also it was a trap. Like they weren't totally wrong. They weren't wrong. But Luke is like, well, since I know it's a trap, I can maybe work around that. Leia still has to tell him. But isn't that the way? I mean, she's always the most discerning character in the room. She's always the voice of reason. She is. And the franchise eventually recognizes that it just takes takes a while. Yeah. But I guess what I'm saying is one of the things I like about this movie is that at least Luke is permitted to be more emotionally vulnerable. He's more expressive with his emotions, certainly than Han Solo is. He cares deeply about his friends and he's not afraid to show it. I love Luke. We need more men like that. I love Luke so much. I feel like we really often not that Luke Skywalker is an overlooked character, obviously he isn't. But that in favor of Han in terms of like, what makes a character interesting and attractive, I do think he is kind of overlooked sometimes. No, totally. Because his qualities are objectively, I guess, and whatever, I'm speaking for myself here, but like more attractive than what Han is doing. But the movie is very didactic and telling you who deserves romantic attention and what behaviors should be quote unquote rewarded. And that's a whole other thing with romantic attention and what shouldn't be. And like Luke, while we clearly we love Luke, he is, you know, he is our protagonist. He is notably the recipient of less romantic attention than Han. Yeah, Leia only kisses him to make Han jealous. And then they make that weird and gross in retrospect. And they're like, um, their sister and brother, actually. And I'm not saying that like Luke should have a romantic interest. Like, that's not one of saying at all. I just think it's pointed who, you know, has the, because in this world and in this time and still often now, the romantic interest of a cis woman is treated as a plot reward. And Han is clearly the recipient of that plot reward in this, in this franchise. Totally. Yeah, I have come all the way around on this where as a kid, as a teenager, into my 20s, maybe even into my early 30s, I was like, Luke Skywalker, whiny and annoying, Han Solo, cool and hot and rugged. And now I'm like Han Solo, a dick who needs to go to therapy. Luke Skywalker, soft, gentle, kind, and sweet. And again, I look, if you're someone in the business of dating straight men, you'll encounter your fair share, like no, no shade. If you're still like, I, like, unfortunately, Han negging is hot to me. Like you, you live in a society and it's your right. I'm just saying that Luke is Mr. Sweetie. And, and I recognize that. And also it seems like Mark Hamill was Mr. Sweetie and in is possibly Mr. Sweetie to this day. Do you remember when we went to that event at a now defunct comedy space, UCB sunset, and he was there? No, we were away. It was something that Liz Winstead was doing. Oh, it was a comedy show. I think it was a fundraiser that was promoting access to abortion. I do remember going to that. I don't remember that Mark Hamill was there. Mark Hamill was there. I think like doing random illustrations or something. He's like, I mean, from what I know, and I'm not a Mark, but it seems like, you know, I'm sure they're a little lib, but like it seems like he's, he's like a genuinely like sweet and thoughtful person. I think so. And no, he was, he was there. I'm wondering if I can like dig up pictures from this event. But yeah, he was there. And I was like freaking out. I was like, oh my god, that's Luke Skywalker. This is incredible. And you were sitting next to me being like, I feel nothing. I guess that's why I don't remember because I felt nothing. It was just another day for me. Yeah, yeah, fair. But no, yeah, he's Mr. Sweetie. He seems like a sweetie. And yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think that's everything I had for this. I mean, it's tricky because when you're talking about one Star Wars movie, you're kind of talking about all of them. So I'm sure that there's things we missed. Listeners, if there is anything in particular that you feel we should have discussed and didn't, please let us know. But yeah, I mean, there, there's so much to love about this movie. I understand why it's a lot of people's favorites. I will point out that this is the, and I'm not totally sure why this is, but this is the only Star Wars movie of the original trilogy that was not, I believe, edited by a woman, Marsha Griffin, who would have been Marsha Lucas at the time, who I remember because of her iconic quote about how she long after her divorce saw Star Wars episode one and went to her car and cried after it was like, what happened to my ex-husband? What a flop. Why did he make such a bad movie? Yeah, but she did, she did edit episode four and six. So I'm not sure why she didn't edit this one, but she needed a break. Maybe. I mean, we just, we haven't talked about the original trilogy in so long that I just wanted to shout her out. She also, I mean, she was like very much in this group where she also edited American Graffiti and other, but a bunch of Scorsese movies, Taxi Driver, New York, New York, Alice doesn't live here anymore. Like, she's a legend. A legend. Anything else you want to talk about? No, I can't wait to see Babu Frick. Oh my gosh, we're gonna see. And look, I'm not above thinking Grogu is cute. I look, there's, sometimes I look at my cat Casper and I'm like, hmm, Grogu vibes. And I see it. Look, we're, sometimes you just have to remember we're living in difficult times and you have to be cringe every once in a while. And it's a sign of, you know, whatever it's a sign of. Happy birthday, Caitlin. Does it say past the back door? Absolutely not. No. I didn't close. There's not another woman. There is, I did see with my own eyes. Oh no, not us starting to do the like, I saw a woman. A woman. You're talking about it like how they talk about like the Munchkins that are allegedly dead in the background of Wizard of Oz. That's how you, and you're like, oh, wait, we actually corrected, we actually updated it to 4k and it was a tree. It wasn't anything. It wasn't a woman at all. Even so, there's a woman, she's on Hoth. Okay. At the rebel base, she I think is in front of a computer. She maybe has a headset on. That's so valid. So she's doing something. That's so valid. But Leia doesn't talk to her. In 2017, they would have made a four part mini series about her. But now there's no more TV and misogyny is back and they probably wouldn't. Anyway, so yeah, that's a no on the Bechtel test. But what about our nipple scale, where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples, examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. Indeed. Well, again, we've talked about how Leia is an iconic and admirable character. She is not immune to gendered tropes of the time. But she also defies a lot of gendered tropes of the time in that she's allowed to actually participate in the story and the action. And that's that's not insignificant. The bar is in hell. But but there is that but I do love Leia. Yeah. And I love Carrie Fisher. I don't know. I guess maybe like a nipple and a half. Yeah, maybe two. I was going to give it to based on the existence and like delayed celebration of Leigh Brackett. Fair. Yes. While Star Wars is very flawed, I think you're hard pressed to find many movies of its era where there are women in roles that prominent, including in the editing booth, etc. Again, it's peanuts, but it was rare at the time. And I'll I'll say two nipples for that. Same. One goes to Carrie Fisher. One goes to Leigh Brackett. I'm going to do the exact same thing. A secret third nipple goes to Bob U Frick. Bob U Frick guys, we're gonna we're gonna all start cheering at the theater when he comes out, right? Yeah, right. You and I will. We're gonna get him that side thing that they were supposed to do. Do you remember how the voice of Bob U Frick said that she wanted there to be a series about him about his romantic exploits of the past? I did not know that, but but I need it. I really I really carry a torch for that for that anecdote where she was like if she's like, there's a story here. This this little guy is lived. Bob U Frick Fricks. Bob it's right there. It's right there. And we're available for work when the Bob U Frick series gets green lit. Katelyn, happy birthday. Thank you so much. Thank you for bringing one of one of the best Star Wars movies ever. Happy to do it. And I don't know if I will commit to covering Return of the Jedi next year for my birthday, but it's a strong possibility. But love it. Thank you for covering this with me today. Of course. And thank you listeners as always. Sorry, my computer's going to die in like two minutes. So I'm racing to the finish. Yeah. You can find us as always if you enjoyed this episode with just the two of us. There's hundreds more over on our Patreon, aka Matrion, where for $5 a month, you can access not just two new episodes a month on a topic often of our listeners choice. You can also get access to about 200 back episodes. And it is the best way to directly support the show. And you also get access to like tour information before we announce it to the general public, which will become relevant later this year for our 10 year anniversary tour and access to a really fun community that we're very thrilled to be a part of. So yeah, check us out there and on Instagram for updates. And that's kind of it. That's kind of it. Shall we get in our Millennium Falcon and press the hyperdrive button and go to light speed? Whatever the hell that means, let's do it. Okay. Bye. The Bechtelcast is a production of iHeart Media, hosted and produced by me, Jamie Loftus. And me, Caitlin Durante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichterman and edited by Caitlin Durante, ever heard of them. That's me. And our logo and merch and all of our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus, ever heard of her. Oh my God. And our theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan with vocals by Catherine Voskrasinski. Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree slash Bechtelcast. What a scream. We installed telephone wires across rural Britain over a century ago, and you're still paying to use them for your broadband today. If it ain't broke, what? Stop. Your days of selling phone age broadband are over. Blast. I've spilled the beans. Upgrade to 100% full fiber. Giga clear. Faster broadband for rural Britain from only 19 pounds a month. Price may rise during contract. Teas and seas apply. Check availability at gigaklear.com. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.