Daredevil: Born Again Season 2 Episode 4 Breakdown & Reactions!

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Not available in all states. what's up everyone welcome to level seven it is time for another episode of the agents of fandom podcast i'm your host tj zwarich in a jam pack week of content we're talking some daredevil born again and i've been so excited to get to this specific point in the season because when i i got to see first the first four screeners and so they cut us off at this cliffhanger and then after this this like it look daredevil born again has been great so far it just is now an exciting i should have planned what i was gonna say before this but i didn't i'm so excited about it i'm speechless. I have no words. It's just a roller coaster ride from here on out and joining me to break it down every Tuesday night. We got Jam. How you doing, my friend? I'm doing well, man. Thank you for having me as always. It's a little bit of a later night for me over here on the East Coast, seeing as I got to be up early, but it's we're in the MCU, man. I'm so excited to be here. How can I not be up when the devil of hell's kitchen is roaming the streets? So I got to be up with you guys i couldn't take carlos in the chat one more week after i inadvertently read one of his boob jokes on the podcast on a live show we had to bring him on so we couldn't do that to me anymore carlos freitez welcome thanks for joining us great to have you back yeah great to be back uh um yeah this is this is uh i don't know who's protecting the streets of chicago because I'm not daredevil, but I am the devil of the north side of Chicago. I stalk the night. Deep dish style. Still two D's on my chest. Deep dish. That's what I do. We were... I came and visited you one time while I was there for something else, but we got to hang out. And you gave me the choice of deep dish or Chicago hot dog place. And I took Chicago hot dog place because I was already having an event at a deep dish place later that night. but you can help me take the full Chicago experience. I very much cherish that memory. And speaking of cherished memories, we got to do a podcast together when this little book called MCU, the reign of Marvel studios came out a couple of years ago. And it has become two of our, both of our among our favorite books. And we've got one of the authors right here with us. One of our good friends, Dave Gonzalez. He is not daredevil. How are you doing, Dave? I'm doing good. Don't ask me who daredevil is. don't break down my door i'm harboring no vigilantes nothing to see here just move right along so excited to be chatting about this show with you guys the tuesday is kind of like my weird like we have show basically every day so this like through for the entire month of april throughout weekdays at least with on monday mall shadow lord tuesday daredevil born again wednesday invincible thursday the boys i haven't gotten a chance to see the boys yet so i am very very excited to dive into that. But these Tuesday nights, I'm really starting to get excited about because I've always been like, I've been a proponent that over the past few years, we've actually gotten a lot of really good Marvel things, but there's been no connectivity really throughout them. And they've left us so many broken promises with post-credit scenes that will never get paid off that even though there's been some really good projects there hasn't really been any momentum there hasn't really been any group excitement feeling like the mcu is on a path that we're really excited about i feel that way now i really feel that way now with how much people are loving daredevil born again coming right off wonder man which was a smash hit and now and then spider-man brand new day on doomsday on the horizon as well who knows how doomsday will shake out but damn spider-man brand new day sure looks really really good before we get into any daredevil i want to know what you guys been watching you know whether it's inside the mcu outside the mcu playing video games reading books whatever what have you dave i will throw it to you first my friend we haven't talked in a while so i have no idea what you've been watching this is exciting right no i uh like that you uh listed off all the shows that are like airing um i would add to that that on friday nights i get to watch uh monarch legacy of Monsters Season 2, because we're covering that on one of my other podcasts, Storm of Spoilers. It has been a mixed bag in Monarch Legacy of Monsters Season 2 where the monsters are the fathers is what we've learned this season. Where maybe is what we were supposed to learn the first season, but it is very interesting to watch this show have an enormous budget and where it decides to place it every week I think is wildly inconsistent. So in the like realm of old school TV shows where it's just like some weeks are banger and some weeks are complete. I have been having fun, especially last week where they went through, they jumped through all of the hoops to get Kong and Godzilla in the same episode, even though Kong and Godzilla are not in the same place. So it's, it's been an enjoyable time watching my dumb monster show over on Apple TV plus. Heck yeah. I love to hear it. I just watched eternity today. I started it last night and I finished it today That's a really fun movie Speaking of weird where they use budgets In various parts It almost looked like a stage show It looked like Sometimes the background sets were literally Just like a curtain with somebody drawn on And it wasn't supposed to look like it was something else It was supposed to look like it was a curtain With something drawn on But it was really weird the way that they did it But super cool story with Elizabeth Olsen. She's been married to Miles Teller her whole life. She had another super handsome boyfriend who died in the Korean War when he was in his 20s. And so she's got to decide which one of the two of them she spends eternity with. It's quite like silly and goofy for the first two thirds and then gets you in the feels. Gets you in the feels at the end. I recommend it. Eternity was a pretty good movie. Carlos, how about you? What you've been watching? I have been watching, let's see, Shrinking. which I just described as like, what if everyone was on Wellbutrin? That's sort of just kind of the general feel of like, no matter what happens, everyone's like, yeah, it's fine. We'll be fine by the end of this episode. But it's a feel-good show. I just started Rooster. Like in that, I am going through like a bout of insomnia. So I watched Rooster until my TV literally said, listen, man, I'm shutting off in one minute. Like it's 2 a.m. Like I'm shutting it down. Um, so, so then I had to go stalk the streets, you know, and fight crime. Uh, yeah, rooster shrinking. And, uh, we, we are showing my son the matrix, but that is taking a few, he's 12. It's taking like a couple of installments. Um, but yeah. And then it's that thing of like having to tell him, like, you don't understand. Like when we saw this, we had never seen anything like it before, which is like, you know, my dad telling me about star Wars. you have to tell them like this is the movie that invented aura farming that's a term you know you're a kid that this is where that came from it was this movie yes and then you got to work in obviously like a six seven somewhere and then and then they'll that's the attention span that's it jam how about you what have you been watching i forgot as well i finished jury duty presents company retreat today my god they i don't know how they find these people who are just so pure and so sweet but the finale the last few episodes are just so incredible it's literally just like this guy is just the best person on the planet he judges no one he supports everyone it was so cool to see how the end of that series worked out for him jam what have you been watching honestly everything that you listed that we're basically doing a show on like uh star wars you know maul shadow lord uh here for daredevil invincible i got abbott elementary in the back pocket but my anime is really what it's what's what i'm locked into as as i mentioned yesterday for the shadow lord pod it's switching you know we're switching in that like we're in that point of time where it goes from the winter season to the to the spring season so all of the anime are changing so a lot of the stuff is gone so right now i have only really dr stone it's kind of like what i'm locked in weekly too and that's only on like episode three i think is or two is gonna drop it thursday so like i'm kind of like on a slow period when it comes to shows but as far as apple tv i want to add to something that dave said uh monarch and i'm also watching for all mankind season five that's like my i've been watching that since like apple tv kind of because i feel like that show came around the beginning of Apple TV. It was like one of those first installments. Like I know it was, it was with C and the, and the good morning show, but I've been watching for all mankind since it's been out. So that's kind of like my other space travel. And then we just had the moon stuff, you know, the Artemis stuff. So it was kind of like a nice little feel good thing there. Like Jam said, covering stuff basically every day right now, Monday, mall shadow Lord, Tuesday, daredevil born again, Wednesday, invincible Thursday, the boys left some comic corner podcasts. mix into there as well. Carlos has an interview coming. Fat Thor has an interview coming. And we actually have another, some more interviews for the new TV show, The Testament coming as well, where one of our brand new agents got a chance to talk to Chase Infinity, or I say we'll get a chance to talk to Chase Infinity because that's happening tomorrow. So stay tuned for that. Hit the like button, subscribe, hit the notification bell. Make sure you subscribe to the Agents Fandom on YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. Shout out to all of our new podcast listeners, because while we still have not cracked that damn YouTube algorithm, which is why we need you to hit the like button, the podcast is going crazy and we love it and we appreciate you guys. So thank you for hanging out with us. Let's start talking some Daredevil. We're four episodes in. Dave, I would love to hear your thoughts and just kind of spoiler-free of what you think of season two so far. Spoiler-free what I think of season two so far. There was a shot in the first episode where we, I think it was the first episode, where we see that there's a wig missing in Daredevil and Karen's hideout and it match cuts to Fisk's bald head. And I'm like, what a way to just say, hey, we know last season was maybe cut together a little bit weird, but this season we're going to have our hand on the wheel the whole time. And that's what I felt this season in Daredevil. It's doing a lot of, I think, rescuing it from some of the things that went bad in the Netflix run and last season, which I think is a really smart way to sort of remind us what we really liked about Daredevil and sort of yada, yada, yada, and overing some stuff that we didn't like, which I think is a great way to sort of fix the continuity. So I've been having a great time with season two. I was here for season one because I do like this Disney Plus version of Daredevil, the Born Again series, just for how it is anchoring Matt closer to New York. I don't think it was necessarily as successful with the bank robbery episode or the serial robbery legal case in the first season which are both episodes I enjoyed for little stand-alone things and I would be totally forgiving if we had 20 episodes of Daredevil a season yeah, give me those little one-offs but this one I really appreciate that if we're sort of moving forward with this one plotline that they're really able to complicate the Northern Star plotline and the Mayor Fisk plotline basically right from the beginning we're four hours deep I'm still finding new corners to peek into of what's actually happening and I think that's excellent because I do think there were several times in the first season and uh the second Netflix season where I think the show suffered because the audience got ahead of what the show was trying to do with Daredevil the character and here I think we're right with him uh as you know he's waging this war against Fisk. So I'm really appreciating what this new season's doing. I think it's a lot more successful at setting realistic goals for itself and meeting those goals, even down to just like it's use of bullseye so far is a very smart use of, you know, visual effects budget where you just have a guy really enthusiastically throwing nothing and you make it look cool in post-production and it's been working really well. So I've been having a great time. I'm very sad about some of tonight's developments. but in the proper way where I'm sad because it, it makes our antagonist more dangerous. Carlos, how about you? Four episodes in we're at the halfway point. What do you think? This was the first episode that I felt like, okay, we're cooking. We're, I have very few notes. Like these first, the first three episodes, honestly, were kind of a slog for me. Like I loved the action sequences, but it felt like even the show was not as interested in the character stuff in terms of like the writing, the dialogue. There was no, there was no subtext. It was just like, I'm a tough as nails lawyer. I mean, that's almost like a line of dialogue. That's almost something from, from the show. This episode gave me everything that I was kind of hoping to see without spoiling anything. some returns to some iconic set locations from the Netflix series that I kind of was missing. And yeah, I think that the use of Bullseye has been masterful. I almost want to just follow Bullseye for a special feature. I kind of just want a one-off of just give me Bullseye for what does he do on a Sunday morning? i'd love to not only see bullseye in like a just like what's he up to type of special feature but putting him against different people where it's like they're the way they're utilizing daredevil and bullseye it's very much like here are two guys with similar skill sets going head to head like it's the it's the classic hero villain trope where they are so perfectly evenly matched tiny spoiler we even get one of those moments in this episode where they both punch each other at the same time and go flying back just to show like they're evenly matched and so it'd be super cool to see bullseye go against just like some other street level people some goofy cosmic level people just that in various scenarios just to see kind of how he would be power scaled in comparison to them i think that could be really fun jam i was gonna ask you in just this episode but we didn't we didn't have you for last week when it was a double episode so basically the whole season so far what do you think i love it man i'm uh i'm really happy um even with some of the stuff visually that i didn't think i would care for like i do notice that they are doing a lot of the over the top blue like that there was an elevator well no spoilers but there was a scene where there's like overly putting blue in behind daredevil and i'm like i mean not behind excuse daredevil uh but behind bullseye and i'm like but it works i was like it's just fun it's it's good and so when when i can notice things like that and i don't care about it that means like to carlos's point earlier yeah they're cooking they're cooking i do agree with him though i feel like some of the stuff that has been like dialogue wise i'm not too enthused by i felt like it was way stronger in season one but i think that was because it was more dialogue focused whereas this season feels a little bit more action heavy as opposed to like pushing the plot forward so i'm not too mad at it it feels like a good balance um i think the thing that stands out for me the most is how and this is as a fan i feel like how they're again you guys mentioned it utilizing bullseye but almost in a kind of like a main character way you you feel I mean, it feels like this episode was very mall ask, very mall ask with what we're just watching with shadow ward of like, Hey, this is a bad guy, but our interests are kind of aligning right now. Yeah, it's very interesting. So, but yeah, I'm loving the season overall so far. I think it a it very I liked so that that the caveat to this I do really like the first season I know that like a kind of like a not too people are fond of that first season but I really liked the first season as well. So I feel like this is just as good as that to me. Like, it's not like anything crazier. So to your point that you've been making early a lot, that the second half is, I'm excited because I'm, if I already liked that first season, I already know. And I already like where we at now. I could only imagine. Let's start talking full in-depth spoilers. Spoiler warning for Daredevil Born Again. If you have not seen the episode yet, hit pause on us, go watch the episode, come back and watch us after you have finished it. I want to go in reverse order and just talk about the ending of this episode because I don't really think we can talk about this episode while like avoiding that part. I think we just got to dive into it. Big, big showdown at the end of this. Fisk has his big teased fight that they've been talking about all season. He has the, he matches up against the least intimidating heavyweight champion I have ever seen in my entire life. Beats the shit out of him. Bullseye comes in and Vanessa catches a shard of glass right through the temple. Jam, I was just talking to Sean, one of our other co-hosts before the, before we came on air and he goes, wow, I did not see that coming and I said yeah Neither did she did you Catch that this was gonna be You know I feel like they kind of teased it earlier In the episode the way he was like you can't Be here what do you think about the way This concluded in the cliffhanger they left This on I honestly did not expect That like I was literally laying Next to my lady as she's playing Pocopia And because she doesn't watch this right And I'm just like No No I had five minutes to get on pot I'm like no, how do I process this in five minutes, right? I just can't. And so the fact that you bring it up first, I'm grateful for. I was not expecting this. I did not think that they would end it like this. To be quite honest with you, I thought it was going to be something with Daredevil related, with all of the marketing that has been coming out today and interviews that they've been doing with Charlie Cox and his kind of mentioning of a specific comic arc that they – had scenes for and so that's what i thought it was gonna be but seeing it actually be vanessa i'm like oh kind of to dave's point earlier i'm so scared of what this is gonna like where this is gonna take fisk that's the first thought i had immediately oh you're muted do you think she's dead or you think she's going to come out of this oh that's a tough one i wasn't expecting that question from you and i should have i feel like no i think i think he could be dead i'm gonna say i think she's dead i think they're killing her off i i but in the marvel universe are you ever really dead carlos what did you think about the you know surprise at the end and the story the storytelling choice to have vanessa caught in the crossfire uh first of all she's clearly going to come back as Taskmaster. Vanessa, you asked me before we started if I was shocked, and I was like, honestly, no. I feel like they've been kind of telegraphing it. There was a shot, this is really awkward shot in episode three, where she's just lying there on the ground for no reason. And it looks like she's in a coffin, but like she's lying in state, but for no reason. Like, why are you lying on the ground, Vanessa Fisk? I felt like that was kind of stuff that was like, I don't know, the dream sequence, the, again, go back and watch it. It's a very awkward shot. You're like, why is this happening? I was just kind of, I expected it to happen later in the season. I didn't expect it to happen now. So it does definitely untether Fisk from the rest, you know, like from what was, I mean, not that he had morality or ethics going, but now he's completely, you know, he's able to just go as ham as he likes. I mean, and the boxing scene is the metaphor for that. Like he was going off. He was going to kill that man. And then Vanessa shows up and he's kind of weak for a second. That's when he gets hit is because Vanessa's there. now vanessa's not there like you know the world is his boxing opponent now uh i would also note this uh episode um featured a church and a temple vanessa's temple i think the thing that this happening kind of reminds me of is i won't dive into spoilers for anything but I've just been in a big reading mode and I have finished the first five books in the Percy Jackson the Olympians franchise I haven't done any of the spin-offs yet but I finished the five main ones and there's a moment in the later books where characters undergoing something very dangerous and they have to think about their tether to the mortal world a person a thing a memory that will keep them human so that they don't descend into madness and I kind of feel like fisk just lost his he's always like this is where fisk is going to uh this is going to open us up to the plot line where fisk tries to open a dimensional portal to get a vanessa from another universe spider-verse baby this is how we connect this is actually secretly what spider-man brand new day is about i mean this is how they're right in front of us right that's the incursion right there you know uh you brought up uh tj uh your tether to the world and i just i'm so i'm so I feel like, what's the word? I'm just baffled that you didn't bring up your one-a-per show, and that's the tether that what's-his-name, Zahir had in Avatar of Korra before he learned how to fly. Yeah, that was, let go of your earthly tether. Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. I'm so ashamed of you. I'm so ashamed of you right now. This is one of the rare times I'm not reading an Avatar book or re-watching Avatar because my rewatch is Star Wars Rebels and my book reading is in the Percy Jackson franchise so I'm not getting my avatar fix right now but Dave I love what you said earlier about how this choice makes this scary as hell like this makes things a lot bleaker in New York City what did you think about the scene and the storytelling choice? I think the scene is really good it immediately flashed back to the last ending of the Daredevil series season 3 on Netflix where like the sort of the only thing that stopped Matt and Fisk from killing each other that time was the idea that something could happen to Vanessa in terms of what Fisk that's what Matt held over him so now that he's got nothing to hold over him that makes Fisk so much more dangerous I was sort of seeing it coming because in terms of this show at least nodding towards having attempting to have like a balanced morality someone kind of needed to pay for foggy's death and i don't think it was going to ever be fist and so sort of the retracking of that right before it happened uh where um bullseye tried to explain himself to daredevil i was like okay this is vanessa is definitely on the board if they have to remind us precisely that it was her who gave the order initially uh that set off this whole like uh foggy revenge part of uh matt's heart so i was shocked but i do really like it i guess if i were to devil's advocate um she got you know a glass building in the temple we did see new york born again very make america great to get us on that little so-called uh but also the episode started with a guy getting a full toothpick through his eye and seeming neurologically just fine for several minutes afterwards so maybe that's something that's survivable i don't know how the brain works man and like comic books are even less uh consistent with that but i do think it's important at least right now i'm gonna say this season i think it's important for at least the rest of the season that fisk think vanessa is dead because that's what's going to make him go hog wild and that's what i want to see ultimately to i want this showdown to get on the road i understand we need to collect evidence but i do appreciate that this show has been squeezing in action wherever it can you briefly talked about the bullseye sequence at the beginning of this episode that's what i wanted to talk about next straight out of a comic book there were so many times where i thought like this looks a little like on first watch i there are a couple times i thought this looks a little foolish like could could whatever he's throwing at times even go through a human or wouldn't like human bones be no matter how hard that's thrown a little stronger than whatever this flimsy little cd he's throwing in his uh fight with air devil later but second time i just like laid back and went okay turn the brain off let's just watch the scene and it's so fucking cool it really is like fighting fighting bullseye in a restaurant full of cult cutlery is like trying to fight aquaman in the ocean well they also have the the lobster shots so i'm like oh mate he's gonna throw a lobster through somebody. So like I'm watching that first scene. I'm like, where does he get in the lobster? It's like the lobster is sort of there and I appreciate it that we didn't get quite that silly. But that's the level when this whole setup's happening. I'm like, he's looking at the cutlery. I'm like, oh, fine. He looks at the lobster tank. I'm like, oh, man! Bullseye, double lobster to the face. I kind of wish it was there. But that's the kind of fun you could have with this character, which I really appreciate that we got here because it feels like in real time, like half a decade of developing Poindexter to this point where we could finally have this scene. So if you think about it in terms of that payoff, what a way to kick off the episode. They do lean a little bit on the past we have seen of Bullseye, not just in last season, but in all of Daredevil. He was like, in his later fight with Matt, he was like, I had to get away. I had to get my mind right. I'm okay now. It's just like, hey, I can bounce back and forth from competent to falling apart to all these different things you've seen it before i'm good right now i thought that was funny the way they did that jam what did you think of this opening sequence with with bullseye where he found every possible way to kill somebody with uh all these different utensils toothpicks lobster claws yeah i absolutely loved it i thought it was hilarious really like you said comic book-esque um i also love that it shows like his like like his psyche at this moment too like and how he feels and what his morality is right he's like no like when the guy is like he's like scared with the dog he's like it's unsanitary to bring your dog in a restaurant he's like please don't kill me he's like no i would i'm one of the good guys i would never like i thought it was brilliant i thought that was like little things little that little two three lines whatever brilliant um but it was just awesome great shots i also loved you mentioned it earlier the double punch from the second fight with his later fight with matt um i like that so much because it felt anime like it felt very much like something you would see in an anime like a real quick like a real quick but like slowed down moment where it's coming and then it's like just like ones punching the one in the face it's always the rivals you know it just feels good um so i love that shot uh and yeah like you mentioned a lot of the little like the close-up things on stuff that he's throwing right like when it when he when he dropped the cd and it and it showed like the cd player him open it twist it and then it falls right out and he like zooms in on that and then he throws like little things like that i thought were really good so i was happy with this visually i think it's getting better visually but i also love the camera work i'm always a big fan of like great camera work i think james gunn does it really good um this thing i what is noticing with this is a lot of the times when he's throwing something the way they use they utilize it it's like he'll they'll turn it slightly to the left or right depending on which way he's throwing it i find that very fascinating um when it hits something too depending on how it'll shake it'll follow it sometimes depending on what he's throwing so i love that they play with the camera a lot kind of like a comic book it gives you those panel like type shots so they to dave's point you could just have so fun so much fun with this character and to your point earlier i like it because they're also i think you actually mentioned this in your interview with uh uh the the writers but they uh can do more with daredevil too or they're doing more with daredevil so it's fun to see like the mirroring where it's bullseye's throwing stuff and then you got daredevil trying to throw his uh his his billy club it's just fun to see all that because to your point earlier they mirror each other so i like that a lot there's a lot of cool things that are sometimes super subtle too the way they do it with matt like when we'll talk about the white tiger stuff in a bit but when when white tiger and karen are talking and then it just sort of pans to matt further away where it's like no no i heard the whole thing yeah yeah i let me chime in here now there's just been a couple subtle cool ways that they've they've played with that camera work that i like as well carlos what did you think about daredevils or sorry bullseyes epic introduction to this episode i i loved all of it like i said I could watch that for an hour. I could just watch like a day in the life of Bullseye. There's this thing in comics where every once in a while you get a backup story at the end. You know, like you've read your comic and now here's another four pages of some short story. This felt like that, but at the beginning it felt like, and here's a little Bullseye for you. I loved how we were basically in Bullseye's point of view. like you know there's a song playing it's like um the sequence in spider-man 2 like the musical sequence like when when toby like gives up his his his powers and he just gives up being spider-man and it's like everything's going great for him and like freeze frames it felt like that or like the musical uh sequence in 500 days of summer like it just felt like this like very over the top funny and then he enters the diner and there's that dutch angle you're like okay here we go and then it's very similar to uh last week's uh episode where they lay down all of the sounds of the prison so that when they go back to daredevil hearing you know like you hear the sounds again and you're like okay he's placing where he is in in the in the prison when he's sitting there at the diner and you're like okay there's some there's some cutlery there's a lobster there's you know like he's just like i see a straw and just like everything suddenly becomes a projectile that he is able to to uh you know he's i he's kind of like a proof of concept for like live action gambit on television like i just want to see people throw things and and hurt people with those things that they're throwing um and then yeah just that like getting back to the moment where he's looking at the guy with the dog and you know he's not gonna you know he's not gonna kill the guy he might have killed the dog um but uh when he's just like yeah i'm i'm one of the good guys i immediately was like i need a secret wars era like incursion bullseye and vigilante uh vigilante from uh um the dc universe he's maker yeah yes i need them together now like i need that buddy cop story now because i i i uh i'm in love i love bullseye um i was just in c2e2 and uh they had the daredevil panel wilson bethel who plays bullseye is so charming and so funny and every every answer he gave to every question except for my question was like a joke like everything was very very funny uh he had the room like dying and i'm just like hi i just want to have that much fun with bullseye i want i want this like i want a guy who like really enjoys uh the terror and and this is yeah he loves being bullseye like yeah love it you mentioned something real quick hold on hold on i gotta tell you this because i have to add you add to this carlos you brought up such a great point when he was looking around at stuff they brought this up too right but i didn't mention this. How did you feel in that moment Like because to me it just makes me feel so like like bros up like he a weapon It was like he menacing right You don know what the weapon is Like everything in his world is a weapon. So to see him kind of like look around, it made me feel like tense. I was tensing up watching that. I had to mention that. I was actually trying to clock the emotion. Cause I was like, is this like an alcoholic at a bar? And he's just looking at things like I could throw them. I could throw them and kill everyone here. but I'm not going to because I'm doing all right. But like, I mean, that's kind of what I thought was, I was trying to read the scene. Then he just calls the cops and calls Diner One and says, I think I see Frank Castle walking into a diner. Oh my God, he's got a gun. It just like kind of waits. I love it. It's like getting five stars in Grand Theft Auto and be like, and now we wait. Bring on the tanks, you know? The other bullseye call back to earlier stuff, I really liked from later in the episode when him and Matt are fighting in the apartment. and he calls back to the one good deed where I thought that was really cool from like the beginning of his therapy is early therapy sessions when you are lost when I feel this buzz inside me when I'm going crazy what do I do one good deed you just do one good thing and it will set you back on the proper path and obviously his perception of what that one good deed is what he's got to do it's flawed it's skewed but it's still really uh i i'm a sucker for a callback i'm a sucker for a callback and so i was happy that they brought that back jam what do you think about white tigers kind of full introduction into this season in this episode because obviously we've known angela del toro she's popped in and out she's been a big part of the plot but this was kind of the i guess the escape sequence from uh when they were bringing breaking everybody on a red hook that was the first time but she's fully integrated now she's part of the gang what do you think about angela del toro's white tiger and her uh insertion into this series i'm just waiting for her to don the suit bro i've been here since day one as soon as it as soon as they showed her on screen before they even said it was hector's niece i was like that's a that's her bro i was like that's my heart ultimate spider-man and all the comic now i was like oh and you know i'm puerto rican mixed kids so i was just like dude it's it's we here so i already knew i was hyped i'm just again all i'm really waiting for is for her to don the suit um i feel like they're teasing us here with it but i'm not mad at it because it kind of just builds it up more and more and so when it finally happens it feels like really good and also it feels like this is the way that you introduce characters to me like you do it in a character like in like if you're gonna do like a special presentation or something whatever like that's great right but this feels like the way you introduce a character you have them come in do small things to feel a part of the group whatever kind of almost like anthony mackie as falcon to become captain america right i'm not saying why tiger is going to get their own movie but it just feels like to be pivotal to a bigger plot this is how you do it you introduce them and kind of bring them in and lean them away so i love that i'm loving it i'm just waiting for her to don the suit at this point we almost had our we had a nice little with great power comes great responsibility moment with matt and angela there carlos what do you think about this character jam i'm with you i always want to call her ava just because i i think white tiger i immediately go to the ultimate spider-man cartoon where it's ava yala and not angelo del toro but carlos what do you think of the character uh this this was the first episode where i'm like i love it this is great like i i was not necessarily feeling the performance before but also i think it's just because i'm waiting for them to define exactly what the mystical amulet does because they have said it was mystical um in season one uh and some great courtroom exposition. Was he wearing his mystical amulet at the time? So I am kind of still waiting to see what is the power set? Is there a power set? How are we doing this? But I also, just watching her interact in the city with other young people, I became very sad that America Chavez does not exist in this comic accurate form that she would be besties with White Tiger. You could pair them off immediately. Instead, we've got America Chavez at Comertage, maybe? Haven't seen her in years? You know, that was where I was at. I have a feeling you're going to see her this year. I have a feeling I'm going to see everyone this year, I think. I might be in Doomsday. Maybe. Dave, what do you think about Angela Del Toro's White Tiger and her role in this series? I like it. I do like, I like the junior hero, especially since he was the one that got to drop like the F-bomb about New York in season one, like mad respect about that going forward. I am a little bit split. On one hand, I would like to see her fully powered and in the costume, But in the other hand, I do really appreciate her realistically contributing to the group until she gets that daredevil, like come aboard kids speech. Now I think she could like go off and like do some crazy white tiger stuff. I was kind of hoping that that was you're a defender. Exactly. I was kind of hoping that that was in this episode because they're like set up. They're like, all right, it's really dangerous out there to pass off this SD card. and she just goes to an Arepa cart, which is, you know, I do like that they're, you know, still integrating the community in this way and, you know, sort of making the anti-vigilante task force ice because they keep entering minority-owned businesses for no reason and not finding any heroes in there. So I appreciate all of that. I do kind of, I'm waiting to see, I think, like maybe all of you, what she has to offer sort of, I think, a little bit beyond her anger and avenging her uncle if she's going to stick around. But like, there is a like a fantastic world where like, I don't want to be like all brown girls together. But why not? Like, why isn't America Chavez and Echo and White Tiger, like taking it to New York, like all the time? Like, they don't even need a Peter Parker at that point with that team. I'm joke. But like, it would be fun to see a bunch of these younger New York-based heroes who are orbiting around the Kingpin. Maybe even, you know, like a Hawkeye. There's a lot of Young Avengers got some Kingpin beef. I would appreciate seeing them, especially since it looks like, you know, we're also orbiting around, like, the first generation of Defenders and maybe a second generation of Defenders, I think would be a cool thing. A cool thing for this show to, like, bring around. because I like all of these young performers that get introduced on Daredevil and then get to go do other things. Dave, I'll let you kind of dealer's choice where you want to take it from here. And I'll just throw a bunch of things from this episode at you and I want to know what captivated you. But one, Matthew Willard's character, he always just pops in at the most unexpected moments and provides a little comedic relief, but also just like tension in scenes with kingpin because they're such polar opposite type characters and the northern star of it all with val's connections to utilizing their port so the cia can get weapons out to another country uh straight through to uh we got kind of what we needed maybe we think from this northern star it's been over but now he's dead it's been over a year that i've been asking you this question tj but maybe you have an answer for me here uh who's president in the marvel cinematic universe shouldn't there be especially like i i do like this i like all the stories and i like the sort of um political asides i like sort of building up vanessa as this one thing that could hold them back and her having to go to the governor and fisk using that as like not only a reason to keep her safe but it turns out like the smartest political decision he makes he's like sort of blinded by his rage that Vanessa actually is you know the diplomat that he actually needs I appreciate all that I like Mr. C sorry Mr. Charles I went all Twin Peaks to return there too fast I like Mr. Charles sorry it's a Matthew Loder thing I like Mr. Charles I like that he works for Val I like that he's sort of there representing the CIA I am I think the thing that I like the most about this episode is after all that goes down, he's sort of like shit to himself because he's come in and he's owned the room. And this week, he kind of owns the room with like an almost like Joss Whedon-esque like Wombat Square shit monologue, which like is fine. But like he's so much cooler because he doesn't necessarily need to be that stupid. So the fact that he gives this big show of force to Fisk brings in the other guys. For a while, I think even Buck is scared. but of course Buck's a better actor than I give him credit for. And then Fisk is able to sort of turn the tables on him. And then when he's alone, he says shit. I'm like, okay, that's actually a different power dynamic. And it could be like an emergency escape hatch should Daredevil and his friends get too tangled up in a bunch of war on too many fronts that the US government's just like, and no more Fisk. just like treating him like he's a venezuelan president and just he's gone all of a sudden carlos how do you think the northern star story is going to come into play later with they got this confession is it admissible because the guy is dead now we don't really know how it's going to go uh what are your thoughts on the northern star story and how do you like matthew willard's character uh well i think clearly jk simmons will reprise his role as j jonah jameson and just claim it's all ai uh and so that video is completely inadmissible and no one will believe it um no i i i think it's it's cool to you know to tie it to val and it's cool to to bring it you know to to have this um this plot point but i also like don't necessarily believe the cia operates by smuggling weapons out of the United States. That's not how that normally goes. They don't need any help overthrowing governments in Africa or anywhere else. And they definitely don't need Red Hook to do it. They don't even need to hide it. That'll get the YouTube algorithms going. Yeah. The Matthew Lillard of it all, I am just kind of waiting for okay, like But why are we really here? Like, what's the real, what's the angle here? Because as of right now, he just kind of exists to annoy Fisk in a way that usually those characters are dead by the end of a season. um he feels like he's got a little bit of plot armor because he's in the cia but maybe he's the example of like no actually fisk is this crazy now he's this unhinged that he'll he's taking out cia agents like he's he's you know maybe fisk is the president i mean maybe fisk is the president guys maybe i thought that conversation with the governor was so ridiculous the way she was like so your husband fascist tyrant don't love what he's doing in new york but you you're mysterious to me you got some you got a little something you got a little something something i'm in your husband he's gonna shoot people in the face you you take away their jobs and they can never work again i really appreciate what you're doing it was just like there was some weirdness to it i was like i don't actually know what's going on here but jam what do you think about the northern star storyline how do you think it's going to play out and what do you think about mr charles and his role in it all i honestly feel like they're going to find a way to pin it on like matt murdoch or daredevil or something which they have already done the terrorist attack but i feel like they'll pin it on matt murdoch that's how we get that uh him in jail theory that everybody's going around with uh because of the cell cell uh l block d storyline um so that's kind of about anything that he's had in the press tour yeah that's kind of just like what i'm that's just kind of like what i'm thinking of is that they're gonna pin it on him um but i really love matthew lillard as mr charles um it makes me feel very sad because i feel like matthew lillard like in his prime would have been like the perfect joker they always talk about him being the they always talk about him being carnage but uh he gave me I was going to say, like, it makes me sad that he's never going to be Cletus Cassidy because I think I can just hear that. I think he would do great at that. I think he would be great at that, too. But this energy that he was giving me was very, like, businessman Joker-esque. But like Carlos, he's like, I just want to annoy you, right? Like, I just want to annoy the bat. I want to with the bat. And that's kind of what I was getting, like, from Matthew Lillard. And maybe it could still happen, you know, play with ages in the D.C. Who knows, whatever. But, yeah, I was really loving his performance. I just kind of want Matthew Lillard in everything. He was just in Cross season two, right? And he was great in that. So it's kind of just fun to see him in things again. It kind of feels like, obviously you don't quite get the full extent of this in a season that's so short, only eight episodes, as opposed to something that's 20 plus, but it did feel kind of mid-season finale-esque. This episode where it's like, I truly have no idea where it could go after this point. And now what? There's no more Northern Star. There's no more people to question. Vanessa just got a shard of glass to the temple. Matt and Bullseye are on the run. Dave, what do you think is coming next year? Because it truly feels like any directions are possible after this point. yeah uh i think they're still doing a lot of work in this series to show that the anti-vigilante task force for the most part are a bunch of dicks because they're not picking on vigilantes at all i'm very interested to see what happens when that turns because it does bring up you know a lot of issues about who's going to take responsibility for all of this if like mayor fisk is a bad solo actor because the government cuts him loose and we have to hold some accountability for that that's fine but also like for daredevil's whole like we really shouldn't be killing people willy-nilly all these uh these policemen are dying uh they get knives to the throat and the face and like that sort of thing so we're gonna have to see what sort of fallout exists in the Daredevil universe. I think there is a very depressing but realistic version of this they could take where they remove Fisk and realize that that power vacuum is horrible because I think that's like a specter of American politics. Boy, wouldn't it be great to get the top guy out, but then what's going to fall into that vacuum if that were to happen? I think there's a way that Daredevil about that. I don't know if Daredevil wants to be that dour, but because they're already shooting season three, I think they could have a downbeat. They could have Empire Strikes Back ending. This could be even more depressing than the end of the first season because that will make the climax that much bigger. I'm unsure. I do think we have to wrap up the port. I think we're done with the port because I think as long as the port's in play kingpin needs to be in play and i think we kind of need to let kingpin come to a conclusion not like he's out of you know don't kill him or anything but send him to jail again it happens in the comics all the time i think somebody's gonna need to go to jail is it gonna be one of our protagonists or is it gonna be wilson fisk that's sort of i think the coin toss at this point and sevener we have apocalypse in chat with us and they say fisk is going to bring down the wrath of god on the vigilantes because vanessa uh because of what happened with vanessa and that's probably why jessica gets in the mix in the next episode a strong prediction i think i was shocked when watching these screeners for the first time with how much and how heavy jessica jones was in the promotion and i say like there was if you want if you have or have not watched the mid trailer for daredevil born again there is a jessica jones related bomb that they drop in that trailer that i think we should avoid talking about and just skirt along past it because i thought that was going to be a really cool reveal for uh a lot of people when they saw the show for the first time and then they dropped it in the trailer so we're going to avoid that one but alas Carlos where's Jessica? I was so shocked that Jerry has a fucking heart attack in the first episode and then I thought they were going to be like oh well we need a new PI Jessica Jones I'm shocked that we hadn't seen her yet I will just say I saw the trailer I saw Jessica Jones' face and then I guess I didn't watch the rest of the trailer because I have no idea what you're talking about keep it that way Well, I also live on Twitter, so I'm sure I'll see it. Or new rock stars will have like, yo, we'll explain everything about that bombshell. Yeah, I, you know, it feels like they're, it feels like they're, they were giving us cameos as almost like to test to see if the defenders could work. Like, I never expected Jessica, once she wasn't there at the end of season one, I did not expect her to be a mainstay through season two. So, yeah, I just kind of like, I sort of expected like a Jessica episode. And kind of like Jack Duquesne just being like, and now I must leave, even though that doesn't make any sense. bro if i was rich as hell and i had just been in a cage for six months i am going somewhere warm and safe can i just give you all my money and not have to fight please yeah like he left them he left them the black card like that's i'm leaving that that's as good as i can do i'm old i also just love that he was a hero he's in a cage for six months he is perfectly shaved like he does not look like he's been in a cage for I was like six months that's like you don't have to groom he just commands the hair to stop growing and it just stops I know this of course is the only one on the podcast who can't grow any facial hair this is all I can grow TJ assures me you could just think and not grow any facial hair Jam When do you think Jessica's coming? Do you have any theories, predictions for how the second half of the show is going to play out? Man, listen, all I can say, because we're not going to talk about the big bombshell, so what I will say is I put out roughly around a month and a half, two months ago, a theory, and I called it Spider-Man Devil's Reign. It's on all my socials, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. all I'm gonna say is everything that I have been theorizing from comic knowledge to where we are in the MCU is happening I deserve flowers I deserve a statue build me your honor I'm just joking all jokes aside though that's my theory it's that it's everything that we can't talk about my only other theory really has been we're looking for who's gonna replace Fisk who's gonna replace it's gonna be Luke man we're gonna get Mayor Luke Cage um again just go just go check out the theory man just go check out the theory like if you want there are set photos that can be very easily found the trades are even reporting on them now of daredevil born again season three with some with luke cage in there and like dave you talked about the power vacuum we've been theorizing about this for a long time uh as well of like it just makes sense what how did the last season we saw of luke cage end it was him filling the power vacuum left in Harlem with all of these other guys out of the fold. What do you think about the Luke Cage as mayor theory? Do you think that is how this is going to end up playing out post-Kingpin? I don't know. I have timeline questions for that because I have seen a Spider-Man brand new day trailer where somebody that we know is presenting a key to Spider-Man and it's not Luke Cage. so we're gonna have to do some stuff that might include all of Doomsday so like yeah could it happen absolutely like I don't know what Daredevil Born Again Season 3 is because they don't know when it takes place like that's the biggest thing right that universe might not exist anymore I have no idea is Sigourney Weaver in it because she's part of the hand or she just in it for Mandalorian and Grogu synergy we don't know like I like it's scorny weaver's not in it please don't say i said something and put it on reddit that's happened to me before um yeah i'm i'm inner i'm entertained with the ride because i know eventually we're going to end up jumping to a punisher in may and from that we're going to end up jumping to spider-man and these are all geographically taking place in the same spot and now that they're at least nodding that the cia is here with val and i think the last time i was here with thunderbolts asking what does mayor fisk think about like these very pro vigilantes he's they're cia sanctioned vigilantes that's why he likes them it makes sense to me now so i'm very i'm appreciating where the timeline is going i just would love to see like a devil's reign or like a bigger team up and if this is halfway through uh this season i think they have to continue this sort of vigilante crackdown because the most we've cracked down on vigilantes has been the swordsman and that's just not an interesting it's not an interesting conflict like your vigilante task force is going to actually face some vigilantes at some point right uh i imagine that's where i hope this season or and or next season is going is sort of what sort of happens with the the vigilante debate that has also been part of daredevil from the beginning as far back as like the punisher in season two on netflix which is like what's a hero what's a vigilante can one of those be mayor uh if the world of new york is very big in the marvel cinematic universe which i think is great and very fitting for the history of the comics just a point of order i would say that they cracked down on hector ayala slightly more they did that's unofficial that's just cops shooting people that's fair but it is one of the task force I mean the task force didn't exist yet but it was coal right it's another thing that makes it like an ice parallel where they're like we're gonna get the criminal illegal immigrants and like 75% of them are not that and so like that kind of plays but I don't know whether that's like TV writing that's holding off like an escalation which is now where you know breaking down the door of Jessica Jones and bringing this fight to like a wider thing. Or if it's like a commentary on how these secret police usually go down, which is they have a mandate everybody can agree with. And then it's the minority businesses that get all crackdowns. Also, dude shoots and kills a guy and then is back on the force a couple months later. And it's just like, wait, you're back? What the hell, man? I feel like they're all like, oh man, you remember when the Punisher killed like 12 of us last year and we still wear his thing like there's a whole psychology of uh the anti-vigilante task force which is just assumed which is the only thing that makes me feel like maybe most of the world is kind of a cab to begin with it's because they're not doing a great job explaining these characters they're just like these cops are assholes why because they're the cops and everyone's like yes of course daredevil born again that's not debatable anymore so i was like that in the first season too, which I think is like very interesting for a show that is again, mostly about vigilantism versus justice, where it's just like in this show where the like the nuanced legal discussions are happening either in a courtroom or with like masked heroes, the cops are just bad across the board. It's been a big, I think, dividing line between something like the Netflix series was very, very scared of debating and and disney plus is just like no we've taken the temperature and this is fine all we needed was a bullseye getting picked up at a mcdonald's and he's basically luigi uh-huh it hasn't happened yet we still got time he had a milkshake and now he just needs a new burger and the person with the fries gonna be like oh yeah i saw that person on the news jam any other final thoughts on this episode if so let them fly if not where can the people find you on uh socials and uh all the good stuff nah man uh no final thoughts i'm just excited to see where we go i really i really i don't know wait i never found out if dave and carlos do you guys feel dave i'll ask you first do you guys feel like vanessa is actually dead yeah at least for now i think she's dead for the rest of the season for sure um whether or not she comes back after that you know maybe she's reconstituted by god doom and then we get more vanessa i like i like the i like the uh the dynamic and i think fisk is a three-dimensional character because of vanessa most of the time uh so i'd be sad if she was gone forever forever but i think she's arced out for this season yeah how about you carlos you feel the same uh i yeah i think she's down for the count um which is fitting because she died at a boxing match yeah yeah man uh that was the only question i had really i'm just excited to see where this goes uh but no another no other no other uh final thoughts you can check all of my work uh out at jam session i'm pretty much dropping like a tiktok real instagram real youtube short every day at this point you could see them also on agents of fandom stuff um my writing on agents of fandom i have so many reviews that just came out in like the past like two weeks because all of the anime ended so i had to talk about it right um but besides that my podcast is journey across media actually it's a youtube exclusive you can check out all of my interviews and stuff there my pods and episodes there we're on a little bit of a hiatus though right now because uh i uh i'm doing some work podcast with me every day not yeah basically no i'm getting some like updates on overlays and like visual stuff want to redo my you know my intros and make it look a little bit more clean man uh so that's pretty much it but you can check me out there i'll be back soon last thing check me out on twitch man i had my biggest stream last night i got like almost all of my sub goals right now i'm like one subscriber away from all my sub goals i stream every day um jam sessions just replace the e with an x on socials man that's it hell yeah check it out and one other final thought on daredevil born again season three that i had i really hope the seat this season just like doesn't acknowledge whatever happens in avengers doomsday whatsoever but just like half the sky is gone like there's a clear incursion happening in the background there's another earth crashing into uh crashing into earth that you can very clearly see and they just don't talk about it at all i think that would be my ideal way where have you been for like i don't know eight years what have you been up to i think that would just be absolutely perfect carlos where can the people find you on socials if you want them to find you and you have an interview coming up so uh let us know what's him uh yeah i like i said i was at c2e2 and i got to uh speak with daniel kibblesmith who has written kind of for everyone he's he wrote uh some loki stuff for marvel he's written he had a run on darkwing duck um you know like like he's he's he he's braced all fields he's lovely and i had a really great conversation with him actually kind of hung out with him a lot of the weekend at c2 and you find me Carlos Freitas Jr on Twitter on Instagram and actually on Instagram you can find a clip of me asking the Daredevil panel at C2E2 two questions one tying into the similarities between the plot of the show and what's going on with Ice and the second one I asked Charlie Cox who's my best friend now, Charlie. We know you're not in Spider-Man, but what was your favorite day shooting on the new Spider-Man? You can look up his answers on my Instagram. Daniel Kibblesmith is so nice. I got the Loki and Black Panther vs. Deadpool comic signed from him. He's a really nice guy. He's really cool. I really felt like I came away from that weekend like I made a new friend. He's great. He's really wonderful. Yeah, I can't wait to see that interview, bro. tuned stay tuned for carlos's interview there you can also find my chat with vincent sonofrio and charlie cox up on youtube wherever you get your pods we talked to sana amanat and dario skardapan the creators of the series as well we also got some mall shot shadow lord interviews up on youtube and wherever you get your pods we talked to the creative team there subscribe now youtube podcast find us on socials at agents fandom on tiktok and twitter agents of fandom them everywhere else. Dave, where can the people find you? I want to hear about all the pods. I want to hear about all the books. All the books. Okay. Currently, a podcast, A Storm of Spoilers, covering Monarch Legacy of Monsters, Season 2. Always the podcast, Fighting in the War Room with David Earl Light, Katie Rich, Matt Patches. We're rapidly approaching episode 550. We're all old. We've all, half of us have had colonoscopies. That's been talked about on the podcast. we're going to talk about the drama so if you want to talk about movies uh you could check that out over there uh mc the reign of marvel studios is in bookstores now and uh potter potter which is what we're calling our harry potter book i kind of want to call it she won't make any money off of this so people feel okay buying it but it is a history of the harry potter franchise how will people know what's about harry potter they ask i think they'll know by the cover art but uh we'll have that i think after the first season of the hbo show because we want to include that obviously we don't want to get kang'd again and end our book with kang and then all of a sudden it's dr doom for the next couple of years so we're taking a little bit of time on potter but that'll be coming out you can follow me at da7e on uh blue sky and letterboxd if you want to see other stuff that i'm watching heck yeah thank you so so much for joining us it's an absolute blast to have you on i so very much appreciate that you let me grab you basically anytime there's something marvel and we go all right dave mcu's back back on the podcast now and so i do appreciate that it's a lot of fun every time we get to chat oh i always love coming by too and someday we'll learn who's been president in the marvel cinematic universe shout out dermot moroni because i actually got a chance to talk to him about that one time like not a full interview but just like off the record because he was at edmonton expo and had no line we were like why is dermot moroni here i don't know but i would love to chat with him uh and so we just went and hung out with him and he was like oh i'm excited for people to see this show i think like this is what the mcu needs right like this is what people want to see and i was like sure it's the one television show we never spoke about it again yeah we all collectively have agreed that doesn't actually exist we got a really fun daredevil show coming up for you next week in addition to like i said mall shadow lord monday daredevil tuesday invincible wednesday the boys thursday next week we will be talking to the composers for daredevil born again the newton brothers will be joining us live immediately after episode five airs so stay tuned for that join us because we're gonna have a great time talking about them breaking down the episode and then just talking about some behind the scenes some music making for daredevil born again season two thank you so much to everyone who tuned in today we will see you again next week or hopefully tomorrow for some invincible on behalf of myself jam dave and carlos we will see you next time peace Thank you.