Jen Hatmaker Pt 2: How to Live Free, Recognize Your Power & Feel Fully Alive, Awake & In Love with Your Life, finally!

I did not know how much money I made. I did not know what our bank accounts were. I did not know how to file taxes. I knew nothing. I had outsourced so much of my own real life to somebody else, which was disastrous. I think that is one of my proudest parts of this story, and what I want women to know. Nothing is beyond our capacity. I'm never going to be afraid again, because I can trust myself. I'm never handing that much power to somebody else and hope they do not run me into a wall. Coming up in this incredible part two episode with our incredible guest and friend, Jen Hotmaker. It doesn't matter how horrible it gets, we still get to write the rest of the story. It's not dependent on someone else. There is something so profound about just going, I am in charge of me. Then everybody else around you is off the hook for being responsible to create your perfect life. Thank God for this terrible story. I got shaken wide awake, and so now I have this incredible opportunity to live the second half of my life with my eyes wide open, and just so grateful for everything I've learned. How can someone listening who's been betrayed love again? My body had signaled so many things to me. Jen, something is wrong. I was like, nope, you don't get a say here, because I like the story of my marriage and I like the story of my life. So I'm not interested in your messages because they're messing that up. So bypassing my overactive thinking and getting into my knowing what my body is saying to me has been such a joy ride. You came out and shared that you believe LGBTQ plus relationships are holy, and the backlash. What I finally came to was this. That's the end of my belonging in this space. That is the end of my career as I know it. But knowing that I was duplicitous, I couldn't do it another day. I could not look myself in the mirror. I could not do it. I was either going to keep my career or I was going to keep my integrity, but I could not have both and I had to have my integrity. What would Jesus make of this mess? I think about that a lot. How misaligned he would be with a great deal of the people who report to follow him. The real version of him will change your life. And you know because you know. I know because I know. We are just worthy to God, just as we are. Jen is an author, podcaster, speaker, advocate, educator, mother, and amazing friend to millions. From the power of her written word across 14 books, including four New York Times bestsellers, to speaking on stages, leading her own courses in book club communities and interviewing countless visionaries on her award-winning For the Love podcast. Jen has an undeniable gift for reaching the hearts and minds of her community. She's also a mom to five amazing kids. And her brand new book, Awake, a memoir, is absolutely incredible. And I do not say that lightly. Awake is truly a permission slip to embrace your own truth, love who you are, ignite your own knowing and journey to freedom, faith, self-love, and ultimate liberation. And whether today you're listening for yourself or because someone that you love shared this episode with you, I want to welcome you to the Jamie Kern Lima Show podcast family. Thank you so much for being here. And can you take two seconds and please hit the subscribe or follow button on the app that you're listening or watching on. Thank you so much. It truly means the world to me. And you can get inspiration right into your inbox from me for free. Just join my newsletter community at jamiekernlima.com. Also, this incredible podcast episode today, it's not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person that you know who might need some inspiration today, or perhaps a boost in their self-belief, because what you're about to hear can truly impact mine, yours, and their lives too. Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Oprah, how have you defied the odds? Her show is unlike any I've ever done. A revelation. When you listen, it feels like a hug, but your brain and your spirit and your heart is like, wow. Melinda French Gates. When I look into Jamie's eyes, I feel like I am on some other cosmic level with her. I could see the light around her. She's infused with light. Imagine overcoming self-doubt, learning to believe in yourself and trust yourself and know you are enough. Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Jamie Kern Lima is her name. Everybody needs Jamie Kern Lima in their life. Jamie Kern Lima. Jamie, you're so inspiring. Jamie Kern Lima. If your kids could only remember one thing about the way that you love them through this, what would you hope that it is? We've had this gift of time now that we can look back with clarity and see some of that. Some of it they have said to me. I have that gift in my pocket of how they perceived the breaking of our family and then us cobbling together what we had left. What they have told me primarily, which I think is my greatest joy, is that I was 100% absolutely with them. With them. That mattered because both of their parents weren't. We never left each other's side. We were in lockstep, me and those kids. It was a beautiful part of the story, which is a weird thing to say now when I look back on it. I just think of how many zillions of hours I sat with those kids on the porch. Sometimes we were working through our actual story. Sometimes it was that direct and right at it. We were talking about our real feelings. Sometimes we were just being dumb and absurd and silly and laughing and determined to still have joy in our lives. Those memories are so precious to me. I think we really overcomplicate parenting a lot. I know I've been handed a billion stories about what does it mean to be a good parent? All these rules that we were supposed to follow, do this, this, and this, and not that, that, and that. God, parenting seemed like such a gauntlet when I was younger and everybody was telling me how to do it right. Now that I'm on the other side of all those building years and I mostly have adults, I'm pretty convinced just the being their part. I'm here. I'll always be here. I'll never not be here. You can always count on me. I'll screw up along the way, of course, but you can count on me. I will be rock solid for you. Nothing will ever remove me from your life. I think that's pretty much it. We can make a lot of mistakes in there. We can wobble a lot as parents and we do. That is the lead story that pulls through our commitment. When your kids watch you building your self-worth and rebuilding your self-worth, what do you hope they learn for themselves? Yeah. Boy, they watched me do that. Listen, Jamie, when I first, when all this first happened, this is so embarrassing to say, I did not know how much money I made. I did not know what our bank accounts were. I did not know how to file taxes. I did not know what our 401k looked like. I knew nothing. I had outsourced so much of my own real life to somebody else, which was disastrous. My kids literally had to watch me learn how to bank, learn how to invest, write a will, figure out health insurance, sort out all the mechanics of an independent life. They watched me do it. Messy, messy, messy. It's easy to say in hindsight now, now that I have it sort of all in check. At the time, what a sloppy mess. They watched me do it. We learned how to handle money together at the same time. It was like we're all students, me and the kids, learning how to manage our money, learning what that looked like, learning what it meant to handle boring stuff like broken cars and the yard and the grill and when the disposal breaks. They just watched it. I think that is one of my proudest parts of this story. What I want women to know, nothing is beyond our capacity, nothing. It doesn't matter. I was almost 50. We can learn it. We can figure it out. We can do it. We are trustworthy. Women are so trustworthy. We're good at all this. I'm never going to be afraid again because I can trust myself. I'm never handing that much power to somebody else and hope they do not run me into a wall. Never. I'll never do it again. I'm safe. I'm safe with me. Having them watch that process and evolution was a joy. Watching them assimilate those lessons at 22, at 24, at 26, instead of like me, at 46, at 48, at 50, it thrills me. I'm like, look at these kids go. They've got it in hand. They're not going to have to have a life collapse and rebuild it halfway through. They're going to have a sturdier foundation. I'm so happy about it that I could just skip. As I watch them engage their young adult life, I'm like, I feel good about all of you. I feel good about where you're at. I feel good about what you care about. I feel good about what you know. I feel good about what you have already said. I won't allow that. I'm like, thank God. Thank God. That's been a fun story to actually live together. When you imagine many, many, many decades from now, when you and I are both gone, and someone were to ask your kids who their mom is, how do you imagine they'll describe you? But I'd love to hear what they have to say about this. What I hope that they'll say, what I hope that they would say, because a lot of people think they know me because of whatever, because of the work that I do and the public arena I've opted into. What I hope that they would say is that my mom is the same person behind the curtain as in front of it. That goofiness, that genuine joy in other human beings, that care for the world. I hope that they would say that's who she is. That wasn't a put on. That wasn't fancy public gen. And then we had this different mom in the house. We had this completely different personality raising us. I hope that they would point to integrity and say, we got to believe who she was because she was always the same. She was the same and she was consistent. And our mom at this age is still our mom today. And I hope that they will say that. And I hope that they just know there's no bigger fan on earth of my kids than I am. Just it couldn't be. It just couldn't have. It doesn't exist. And I got that from my dad. My dad's like that. My dad was like that with all four of us. And so I come by it honestly. But I just am like, you kids, you're so awesome. You're so smart. They're like, mom, jeez. You've got this. So funny. If they don't like you, that's their problem. I mean, I am. I am in their corner. And so I think that's a good legacy to have. I think any kid who at the end of their story gets to go, God, my mom was so in my corner. It's not bad. In a wake, which is now everyone needs to grab their copy. Incredible. In a wake, you say, chase wonder. And you will catch it by the tail. No matter how much you have suffered, the magic has not run out. What do you say to the person listening who says, Jen, I haven't felt magic in a long time. Maybe I just don't have it. Oh my God. First of all, I understand that feeling. Did I ever think the magic had run out for a minute? I did. And I thought I used it up too soon. I used it up in the first half of my life. And I'll just limp along in the second half, I guess. I understand that feeling. I understand the way that loss and betrayal or change or limitations can knock the wind out of us. That's real. And I don't mean to diminish any of it. I am here to tell you that is not a life sentence. It does not have to be, it can be. It can be. I know people who choose that as a life sentence. They just choose to stay there. But you don't have to, it doesn't matter how bad it is. It doesn't matter how horrible it gets. We still get to write the rest of the story. It's not dependent on someone else. It isn't. It's not dependent on someone saying they're sorry. It's not dependent on someone coming back. It isn't dependent on a job or some level of success, some bar. You cannot hand me a bar. I have not set for myself. And then I get there and go, oh my God, it didn't work. I'm still just here I am. And now the bar's higher. It's not a thing. It's not a, it is an inside job and every single person has the capacity to get there. And so I'm, I'm so energized by that. I'm so thrilled by it. And now of course I get to watch women all the time go, look what I've done. I've rebuilt out of like complete rubble. I decided to build with whole new bricks and I have created something sturdy and safe and lasting and protective. And I now know that is, that is the birthright of every single person. And so what I hope is that a lot of the young listeners or readers or viewers or whatever can sort that out earlier and stop handing all their power to everybody else in their life, expecting everyone else to deliver to them the story they want. That's dangerous. That is so dangerous. Not just because those people will let you down, which they will in bigger small ways, but because you are absolutely forfeiting the joy of your own story. There is something so profound about just going, I am in charge of me. I'm in charge of my relationships. I'm in charge of my responses. I'm in charge of my boundaries. I'm in charge of my future. I'm in charge of my joy. And because that is how life works. That is it. That's the honest truth. That's not because I am making that up. It's because that's how it goes. And so getting to that point is so exciting, because not only do you get to step into this space that is just so vibrant, but then everybody else around you is off the hook for being responsible to create your perfect life and love you just right and get it all so correct that you won't falter. Then they're just free to be normal, wobbly people, to love you to the best of their ability. And you're not putting all that pressure on everyone and everything to deliver for you. You're free. You're free. And everything rises with that. Everything. Your relationships get better. Your work gets more interesting and creative. Your personal life is, it flourishes because you are in charge of you. So anyway, it was worth every disastrous moment that got me here. It's, you could not have told 2020 me that I would be grateful for any of this. You couldn't have. That would have seemed so mean to me. But here I sat five years later and I am telling you, thank God for this terrible story. Thank God that my life got just, I got literally shaken awake. I did. I didn't want to at the time. I was mad about it. I got shaken wide awake. And so now I have this incredible opportunity to live the second half of my life with my eyes wide open, steering my own car and just so grateful for everything I've learned. And that's not because I'm special. I'm normal. And so that is just what is possible for every single person. It's thrilling. I know you said in some ways, this is every person's story and that's what makes it so powerful. It's not special. I've said that when I was trying to get this book, we were pitching the book to publishers and I said something to them where my agent was like, I said, look, my story is not special. And that's what makes it important. And she's like, it's special. I'm like, it's not special. It's not special. It's common. And the bricks that built that wobbly house are common. They're common bricks and a lot of us use them in the construction of our lives. And so not special at all. And I think that is what's going to make it useful. And I hope that it is. Again, I did not prescribe anything. I told nobody what to do, what to think, how to feel. This is not a how to. It's not a how to rebuild your life after a loss at all. Which I think is so beautiful and powerful because what I noticed reading it is that it just clears the space for you to ask your own knowing how to. That's it. How to. How to for me. That's it. And there's the space where you just start going there. You say in a wake women are the eighth wonders of the world. May we love this little life with exposed beating hearts, tender, regardless, despite it all. How can someone listening who has, who's been betrayed love again? Gosh. We need to pause for a super brief break. And while we do take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire, because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today to keep going to remember that they matter and to feel less alone, more enough, more connected and more worthy in life. You don't sort the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self worth. When you build your self worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book worthy, how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, worthy is for you. In worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life changing results like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self love, unlearn the lies that lead to self doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness, overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome, achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self doubt and unshakable self worth. Get your copy of worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you at worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out with worthy who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration, which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you, delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to JamieKernleama.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl. Subscribe at JamieKernleama.com or in the link in the show notes. Do you struggle with negative self talk? Living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting. I know because I spent most of my life in that habit. The words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful and when you learn to take control over your self talk, it's life changing. And I wanted to give you a free resource that I created for you if this is something that could benefit your life. It's called five ways to overcome negative self talk and build self love. And it's a free how to guide to overcome that negative self talk to build confidence and develop unshakable self love so that you can dream big and keep going in the pursuit of your goals. Don't let self sabotaging thoughts hinder your progress any longer. It's time to rewrite the script of your life when filled with self love, resilience and unwavering belief. If you're ready to take charge of your narrative, build unwavering confidence and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams, you can grab your free guide to stop overthinking and learn to trust yourself at JamieKernleama.com slash resources or click the link in the show notes below. And now more of this incredible conversation together. How can someone listening who has, who's been betrayed love again? Gosh, I would love to be able to fast forward that person to better days. I would love that. I would love to be able to pick them up out of their sorrow and suffering and move them down the road and drop them into a life that they cannot even envision right now. But the only way to get there is to go through it. It's to go through all of it. And I am so sorry for that being the worst advice anybody never wanted to hear. But if someone is listening and they are in it, there, I structured away and it doesn't have chapters as mentioned, but I structured it in three parts. Part one is called the end. Part two is called the middle. Part three is called the beginning. And that's how it goes. And so keep going. The thing about getting to the beginning is it is a series of really small, seemingly insignificant choices. And you string a thousand of them together and you've moved down the road. And so do the next right thing. Take care of your heart. Take care of your soul. Do the hard work of self honesty. You can't get there without it. Some people deserve quite a bit of blame in our stories, and that's fair. But if that's all we are willing to ever pick up, if we're never willing to pick up the mantle of ownership, of self-assessment, we'll truncate the experience. And so do the boring, hard, excruciating work of recovery, of examination, of truth-telling, of vulnerability. I am telling you, you'll get there. You will. It's magic. It's slow, excruciating, boring magic. But it will get you there. Well, you share in a wake about finding love, and I'm going to ask you a little about that in a minute. Everything from date naps to how do we, like all the things, how do we know when we're ready. But I want to just read something. When I say this book, every word, you'll be hanging on every word in this book, and you write, you say, I will never again outsource my life. When my body tells me what is true, I will believe her the first time. When she tells me what to do, I'll listen. When she tells me something is wrong, I'll trust her. When she says, this isn't good enough for you, I'll stop clinging to it. When she says, full steam ahead, I'll move forward in joy. How do we learn to hear ourselves and trust ourselves? You're piling me in that I was raised not only to not trust my body, but to disbelieve my body, that my body was not trustworthy, that it could not be an agent of discernment, that something was faulty about it, and I needed to outsource all wisdom to somebody else and what they told me to do, think, feel or believe. So, well, I grew up in hierarchical authority structures. That worked for me. I'm like, okay, great, somebody else is in charge of me. It was the work of adulthood to go, my body is the singular source of the highest wisdom I can access. All of our bodies are. Our bodies have one goal, and that is to protect us and keep us safe and help us flourish. That's it. It has no agenda. It's not interested in the narratives that we've bought into. It has no capacity for an agenda. Its agenda is our well-being. And so, my body had signaled so many things to me. Jen, something is wrong. Jen, things are so going sideways. Jen, this is not normal. Jen, this is not healthy. And I was like, nope, you don't get a say here because I like the story of my marriage and I like the story of my life. So, I'm not interested in your messages because they're messing that up. So, getting back in touch with my body, getting inside my bones, and I am cerebral, I prefer to think my way to everything. I'll think my way through life. So, bypassing my overactive thinking and getting into my knowing what my body is saying to me has been such a joy ride. And I've been, I talk a lot about that in a way because that is not my way. It's not how I was raised and it's not even my impulse. I need help. People have to help me get in my body. I need guided meditations. I need body healers. I have to have helpers go, what is your body saying? You're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. She has something important to say. I should listen. And so, that is thrilling when we can figure out how to in the war with our own bodies and rather treat her, Dr. Hillary McBride taught me to call our bodies her and she treat her with the greatest respect that we would give anybody on this earth. That's our best friend. This is our best friend. These bodies are our best friends, our greatest partners, our fiercest protectors, our truest knowers. They know. Our bodies know. Ask anybody. You know what's right. You know what's true. You know what's wrong. We, our bodies know. Now we can wage war and say, well, I don't want to believe you because your truth is inconvenient. Your truth is threatening my story that I like. Your truth would require truth telling on my part that I am not ready for. So that's why we disconnect there. But boy, what a safety to finally end the war and go, I believe you. Lead me and I will follow. Life changing. Life changing for me. How do you protect your peace when the internet has an opinion on every move? The internet is so unhinged sometimes. I've been at this a while. So I have learned. I have learned how to create a bit of an emotional barrier between myself and the messages of the internet. Even the good ones. The good ones can also derail you. If you start just believe me. One time I was at an event where I was speaking and it was a rare occasion, but I had my brother with me. He's the youngest. He's 10 years younger than me and he had come with and women are effusive and hyperbolic. And so they're coming up to us and my brother's right there by me. And you know, we just love you so much. We never really met in person. It's a bit of a parasocial relationship and I love you so much. You are so amazing. You're a favorite person. Turn to my brother. Your sister is like our favorite human. And he was like, she's all right. We can't believe it all. We're okay. You know, we're not as good as the internet sometimes suggests. And we are certainly not as bad as they suggest. And so I think right sizing, that source of input is important. Sometimes there is a response that comes in a good faith way that has instructed me to do better. So it's not as if we never listen to feedback. We never listen. I have gotten trustworthy, generous feedback from the internet sometimes that go, oh, everybody, I got this wrong. Let me make it right. So it's not that we never listen, but again, it goes back to that worth thing. Either I hand that to everybody else to decide or it's an inside job. The end, like the end. And so that is a real source of strength that we can figure out how to tap into it. You know, there's, I feel like one of the biggest forms of cancel culture is the one no one talks about is just canceling ourselves before we even try. And I think a big reason for that is people are afraid of criticism, afraid of backlash, afraid of what if things don't receive this way or what if I fall flat on my face or what if I'm embarrassed starting small and it doesn't work or any of those things. And there's going to be potentially people listening or watching that maybe are learning about your magic and your work and your story for the first time. So I want to ask you this because in 2016, you, you know, are such a leader in so many spaces and big time in the faith space, you're in ministry and a whole thing happened where you came out and I just want to tap into the strength of you for a minute and how can other people sort of summon that strength and courage in their own life. In 2016, you came out and shared that you believe LGBTQ plus relationships are holy and the backlash that happened, including even fallouts from business partnerships. Can you share a little bit about that? How you made that decision? How you had the courage? Because there's something that's impacting everything in your livelihood, in all of it, your social circles, your everything. Yeah. Yeah. That was a reckoning and something I knew was coming. I had, going back to our earlier conversation about, you know, we were handed a lot of stories as kids and then we become adults and go, what of this do I still believe and what don't I still believe? Where, where am I out of alignment now? What needs a deeper examination? What needs an adult brain to process this in a new way, independent of the spiritual authorities who just told me what to think? So obviously, in evangelical and some faith circles, you know, the LGBTQIA plus community is to this day, disparaged, excluded. If they want to protect their belonging in the community, their option is celibacy or getting turned straight, which is of course ridiculous. So that the cognitive dissonance that I had been processing through that narrative had, it was untenable anymore because I had changed my mind. I had, I examined it with an adult thought and discernment and maturity and went, I don't believe that. I don't think that's true at all. I, not just because what I think, but what I see. Like my lived experience tells me that is not true. Not only is it not true, it's so damaging. It's so disruptive. It is so painful and it's having catastrophic outcomes. So I don't believe that anymore, but I also knew the community and I knew, I'd seen it happen. I'm not new here. I knew, boy, that talk about cancel culture. That's it. It's the end of the road. There is no road after that and I knew it. And at the time I was still a darling in evangelical subcultures in 2016. So what I finally came to was this because it was really scary. I knew I was going to lose everything. Well, and to put it in perspective for anyone listening new, you're on every stage in every church speaking, tons of books published, so many people, when you say the word darling, that's an understatement. How beloved you were in many, many, many circles and also in the evangelical or faith based circles. That's right. It was a lot to lose and I knew I was going to lose it. So it wasn't an if. I knew that it was a win. And I was scared. I was selfish. There was all this fear that kept me. We need to pause for a super brief break and while we do, take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today to keep going, to remember that they matter and to feel less alone, more enough, more connected and more worthy. Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration, which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter. That's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to Jamie Kern Lima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl. Subscribe at Jamie Kern Lima.com or in the link in the show notes. I am so excited for this book. You know why? Because it's going to save so many people. It's going to save people. Worthy, your new beautiful book worthy. Get this book. This book? I'm telling you. It's a book that can change anybody's life. Who picks it up. Anybody who's ever felt that they were not good enough, didn't measure up, something's missing in your life. I have to tell you. It's powerful. It's happening. It's worthy. Imagine what would you do if you fully believed in you? I went from struggling waitress facing nonstop rejection to founder of it cosmetics, a billion dollar company, by learning how to overcome self doubt and believe I am worthy of my hopes and dreams. And I'm sharing how you can too and my new book worthy, how to believe you are enough and transform your life. If you're ready to truly trust yourself and break through that barrier of self doubt and know that where you come from or even where you are right now, doesn't determine where you're going, then worthy is for you. It's time to go from doubting you're enough to knowing you're enough. It's time to step into all of who you are and into the person you were born to be. And it's time to believe that you are worthy of it. Because in life, we don't become what we want. We become what we believe we're worthy of. Join the worthy movement today by grabbing your copy of worthy anywhere books are sold. Then head to worthybook.com now for free gifts, including my five part course on becoming unstoppable and my 95 page worthy workbook action plan that teaches you how to implement the tools from the book into your real life right now. Worthy is groundbreaking. Yo. My god. Worthy, you are worthy. This book is going to change lives. This book literally will teach you how to actually feel worthy so that you can have the strength, you can have the confidence. The lessons in this book and the strategies will change your life. You will never be the same again after you read this book. Jamie's book worthy is a must read. It is going to inspire you, empower you, give you the hope that you need and the kick in the rear end that you deserve. Jamie's book worthy is incredible. The gifts are going away, but they're all free right now on worthybook.com. And now more of this incredible conversation together. But I'll tell you, like, because you were asking like, what about how do people manage this? For me, it became worse to be out of alignment. That was worse. It was worse that I knew I don't believe this anymore. Not only do I not believe it, I am watching it actively harm this community every day. And I am a part of the harming agent and I'm too afraid. I'm too afraid to go against the grain because I knew what I would immediately sacrifice is my own belonging. I knew it. That's the end. That's the end of my belonging in this space. That is the end of my career as I know it. I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. And I was scared. But the walking around knowing that I was duplicitous, that I believed one thing, and I was letting the community suffer at the hands of the subculture I was in and succeeding in, I couldn't do it another day. I could not look myself in the mirror. I could not do it. And so I knew that I was either going to keep my career or I was going to keep my integrity, but I could not have both. I could not have both and I had to have my integrity. You can sacrifice it for a while. And I ran a middle lane gauntlet, which is absurd. There's no such thing as a middle lane on people's dignity. But I invented it and tried to walk it. And at some point it was just untenable. So that was it. That was the end of that. That was the end of my career in that space overnight. And my books were all pulled off shelves and put out of print and released from every speaking event. My social media falling just split in half overnight. There was a lot of loss and it was really scary. And it took, it had a lot of attention on it. And it wasn't quiet. It was loud and splashy. I mean, it was in the Atlantic. Like it is everywhere. It's in the Washington Post. Like it had made, it was quite the circuit. And I lost a lot over it. I lost a lot of friends, lost a lot of partners, lost a lot of, well, everything, I guess. But what I want to say, that sounds like a sad story and it was not. Because there is, you cannot put a price on living in your own integrity. It's priceless. It's like I took a deep breath of fresh air for the first time in a decade. Wow. I was like, we'll let the chips fall where they fall. We'll see what's left. I don't know. I didn't know enough at the time to know like, well, anybody else have me? I have no idea. Like, is the world big enough for me somewhere else? It is. Did you know other ministers and people in those circles that also believed what you believed? That LGBTQIA plus relationships, marriages are holy. Do you know other ministers and the people that agree with you, but to this day, won't ever share that publicly? More than I could even count. I still get messages from them. Still, I mean, it's been a decade since that whole breach. And I'm no longer part of that community. And I've built over here in the wilderness. But I've been able to do that. And I've built over here in the wilderness. But to this day, I will have pastors, preachers, big like, paramilitary leaders, big conference, give me their little quiet private DMs and going, I am 100% in alignment with you on this theologically. I will lose everything if I say it. And I'm like, you will. Yeah. You will. So when you're ready to pay that price, come back to me. Like the price is so cheap compared to what you get and compared to what we owe the community. We owe them that. We owe them our support. We owe them our truth. We owe them our allyship. We owe them our platforms. We owe them our influence. So it's an easy price to pay on the other side of it. If Jesus were on earth right in front of us right now, what do you think, how do you think Jesus would feel about someone who identifies that way or is LGBTQ plus? I think about this all the time. I think all the time, like, what would Jesus make of this mess? What would he do right now? Because, you know, everybody uses his name for a lot of bullshit. So he has been attached to a bunch of junk that he was like, excuse me. No, I never said that. And so I think about that a lot, how misaligned he would be with a great deal of the people who report to follow him. They'd hate him. They would hate him. Such a rebel. Jesus is super woke. He was like the original, like, woke. He would not be welcomed into this Western American evangelicalism. He's so disruptive. God, he will mess up your whole life. Like, don't fall for him. I'm telling you right now. He will take you down unpopular paths. And he told us, count the cost. Don't, don't come unless you're willing to count the cost. He is right. So he is not interested in anybody's power or their position or he is not interested in any of it. Anyhow, I always think so fondly about how anybody that is marginalized whether it's in the LGBTQIA community, whether it is communities of color, whether it is immigrants, whether it is the unhoused folks, whoever, whoever is women. I think about how delighted they'd be to meet Jesus. That's, that's his people. That's his deal. That's his demo. That's where he thrives. And he's told us that only a billion times. It's not a mystery. The, in that way, the Bible is not opaque. This is not confusing. It's not, we didn't, we're not just having a difference of like interpretation. Like this is real clear what our deal is down here. And it is love and it is margins and it is mercy and it is being a good neighbor. That's it. Like, so I love thinking about having the most broken hearted, disenfranchised, abused, forgotten, forsaken person in his arms. I love that thought. That is, that is what love is. That is what love is. That is what they would experience. That is what they would feel. That is who he is. So I'm sorry his followers have gotten this so effed up. But that is, that's not true. That version of him is not true. The real version of him will change your life. And do you know, because you know, because it's happened? I know, because I know. Yeah. I know, because I know. I know, because I know. I'm not fancy for him anymore. You know, I'm not a fancy Bible teacher. I'm not a famous speaker in that way. I don't, I'm not a pastor's wife. I'm not a wife. I, I don't have any of those credentials at all that used to make up my resume, my God resume. They're all gone. And I am just as equally cherished as I've ever been. I have forfeited none of it. None of that like relationship, none of that tenderness, none of the affection, none of that like spiritual proximity that I have known my whole life. I guess it wasn't about all my gold stars after all. I guess that's just what we get because we're born. And because we are just worthy to God. Just as we are not for what we do for him, you know. And so that's really good news. It's really hard to get that message through all the fog of the way that his name is used and abused, but it is the truth. And I think there's so many varying circles, right? And varying types of religious practice or beliefs. And I was adopted and I have five different families. I know you know this. And when I look at my families, they vote very differently. They're very, they're all over the place. There's different faiths. There's different beliefs. And I think that what keeps people away from faith so often right now is that they just can't get over that they feel so judged. And so excluded. And what I've never understood is how when even people have really, really great intentions and they really hope to bring people into faith. Yet they are so judgmental and make people feel excluded. And it's sort of like so counterintuitive to me. And the way I've always found peace in is making decisions for myself. Exactly what you said, meaning, okay, maybe I was raised in this particular church to believe this particular thing, or maybe I read the interpretation of scripture in this particular way. And what I do in those situations for me that works, just in case this works for somebody listening right now to you is I will pray, I will get still. I will literally ask. Okay, Jesus, if you were right here, how would you be? And when I think about things that I was taught or read or family members, even in past generations that may have had ideas or beliefs about what's okay and what's not okay and who's okay and who's not okay. It's like, I just believe in every ounce of my being. We talk about trusting our bodies. Like I believe in every ounce of my being that if someone was right here, no matter how they identify, like Jesus would love them, just love them. Just love them. So for me, I have really strong faith. I believe in God. I pray every day. And I also trust that knowing that comes to me over any particular friend I might have that has very different interpretations of things. And I have the whole gamut. And I love them too. Me too. And I love them too. But I think anytime you do have systems, it scares them when someone actually turns their power over to God and says, tell me what's true. No doubt about it. I mean, the power structure, it's so tricky, right? Organizing God. Why would any of us try to do it? Yeah. God. Or being His lawyer. I don't want to be His lawyer. I don't want to be His ambassador. It's so tricky to do that. And it's always been done by humans. So there's just, there's error and agenda and context baked into the sauce. And so to me, it isn't a function of spiritual doubt to move away from some of those certainties that we grew up in. To me, that is a sign of great faith that we go, wait, I believe in God enough. I believe that He is true enough that I'm not willing to accept this anemic version of Him that hurts people or leaves them out or uses shame and fear as their primary tools. Otherwise, if we didn't care about Him, we would just be like, oh, I'll just walk away from all of it. I'll just leave the whole sinking ship behind. But to me, it's a sign of great faith to go, no, no, I don't think you just get to rewrite the whole story of God. Yeah. You know? We'll ask Him. And when in doubt, my North Star is, what would love have to say about this? What would love have to say about this person? What would love have to say about this moment? What would love have to say about this doctrine? What would it have to say about this conversation? What a great—that almost never leaves me wrong. That is a good leader. And that's God's deal. Or at least that's what He said it is. That's His deal. Full stop. The love is the thing. Love is the point. And love is the way. So I don't feel like I need to make it any more complicated than that. Yeah. I feel God's presence so strong right now in this conversation. And that, for me, is what I trust. Like, that is what I trust. And I just—I don't know who needs to hear this today. He maybe has been burned by, you know, a past experience or thought maybe it's not for them or they've made too many past mistakes or they're somehow disqualified from being worthy of even saying, God, are you real? Can we have a relationship? Like, there's so many people like that. And I hope this conversation maybe in a way makes them realize that there's a whole lot of ways, including trusting themselves in this versus, you know, potentially a past experience or a man-made version, speaking of men. Speaking of men. On that note, from God to a dude. Because I already know what's going to happen. We're going to get flooded with questions about— Wait, wait, did Jen go on dating apps? And I'm going to say, you've got to read away. You've got to read all the details about your girlfriends rallying around you about just all the things. And everyone needs to get the book just to get— I couldn't—I said this before. I couldn't put it down. Like, I could not—I couldn't put it down. And I'm not like a huge reader. I love books, but I'm not like a huge reader. There's a lot of things I love to do and books. I'm not just—but I couldn't put it down. And so I'm excited for everyone to read the juicy details. Yeah, yeah. Because I also love living vicariously through— I'm imagining the group of friends that was around you freaking out when you find— Like, just all of it. But there's going to be so many women and maybe they're our age. Maybe they're 10 years younger. Maybe they're 10 years older. And they're like, okay, how do I even get on a dating app? We had Whitney Wolfe heard from Bumble on here. Oh my gosh, yes. And it's so fun now that every age, every situation, can hop on a dating app. And I know just to ask you for you, you know, and you're going to— I'm not going to give away anything because there's so much in this book. Yeah. But when this sort of happened for the first time post-26 year marriage, can you share—just give us a hint about anyone in that situation who's like, you know, have I gone through too many hard times to find love again? Am I too young or too old to find love again? Do I have too many issues? Do I? I mean, all the things I hear, right? That we all say to ourselves, okay, how did you get to that point? Well, and give us like a little juicy insider info on what anyone who is in that spot of going, you know what, I'm going to open my heart again. Maybe after hearing Jamie and Jen today, I'm getting on the dating app. Maybe I'm, you know, going to go out of the house and go to the grocery store instead of ordering groceries in. Maybe I'm going to do the thing. Tell us a little hint about what's going on right now and what everyone has to potentially look forward to. Girl, take me a while to get there, which I—I mean, I only have my own story, so I don't really know if this is prescriptive, but I do recommend for those of us starting over. If that's your category, if you're like me, like, oh, god, I'm an old girl. What am I supposed to date? Like, if that's you, if you've gone through like a divorce or a loss, there is a value in giving yourself enough time to do your own healing work. I'm glad I did not steer into those waters too soon. But having like done all that emotional work for kind of a long time, I noticed all of a sudden, I was like, wait a minute, I think I'm listening to my body, of course, for the first time in my whole life, and my body's like, hey, knock, knock, let's get near a man. And I'm like, oh my god, what? How? And I mean, shit, I started dating Brandon when I was 18. So like, it had been a minute since I have thought about an additional man. And so, readers should know there's a lot of this funny stuff in a week, so it's not all just a sad story. Yeah. Oh no, this book is funny. Oh, this book is funny, and there are so many things we can all relate to. Well, here's the thing. Turns out that love, like romantic love, intimate love, it's not just for the young. We're still just who we are. Like, we still have our little beating hearts and our bodies, and we're older, but that's still real. So anyway, going back to your other guest, I spent, and I will not, I won't tell the story, you'll just have to read it, but I did spend 12 hours on Bumble. 12 hours is how long I lasted. And till I, at the end of this 12 hours, which I explain, I pull my sweatshirt over my face, burst out crying and delete the app. So that went really well. But I'm like, okay, there's got to be another way. And so I, but I just had this posture, like toward the world, like, I don't know, like world, the good news is, I am still tender enough to want love. You know, you can get so calloused, so harmed, so hurt, so broken, that you just go, never again. I won't put myself in that tender space again. I won't be vulnerable. I don't want it. I'll be my own girlfriend. But it is kind of exciting to discover, hey, you can recover in such a way that your little tender heart wants to love again and mine did. So there's one story in here that is very funny about my first date that was accidental. I met, I guess I was going to be an accidental dator since I was such a bumble failure. And that was like, I can do this. I can do this again. And then I very accidentally, and this is not a big part of the story. I only, it's just, it's a very end as just kind of a little closing addendum. I accidentally met my boyfriend and we are, we're on our fourth year together, which is insane. Tyler. Tyler. And I love him and he loves me and it's shocking and stunning and I have no, I cannot even make sense of it. And also it's weird to say boyfriend, I'm 50, but that's what he is, I guess. And so it is so fantastic to fall in love as a grown adult. I cannot tell you, I'm better. I'm, thank God, I am a better partner to Tyler than I was a wife. I'm older. I'm wiser. I've learned so much. I've gone through heartbreak and then faced that like daunting road of self-awareness. And, and so I'm a better person in a relationship now, but adult love is really fun. Really fun. It's really fun. And then I was like, oh my God, I gotta figure out sex again. Like this is the whole thing. Like who will help me? Anyway, it's been hilarious because all my friends are married. They're married for a zillion years. They're no help. Like they don't, what do you guys know? You guys don't know anything. You've been having sex with the same guy. I think you can watch Netflix. Yeah. I'm like, I need to go outside of you. You guys are not my think tank. And so just all of that. How did you get like the latest on sex again? Oh my gosh. First of all, I was like, internet, can you help me? Yeah. Can you help me think about sex in a way? You know, I only came up with that like shameful purity culture. I have no precedents here to think about this in any healthy way. To even evaluate my own sexuality in a healthy way. But I'm beyond that. I, I think I said something in a way like I am no longer trying to please my like sex averse God. Which is how he was handed to me back then. I'm not, that's not my deal anymore. So I don't, I'm not hung up the way that I was hung up when I was young and impressionable. Right. And had not even yet formed my own worldview. So first of all, I got to leave that behind. I highly recommend it. I highly recommend moving into a new sexual space as a grown up without shame. Let's start there. And so then I just started finding like great teachers. Listen, the internet's dumb sometimes, but also sometimes it can be pretty great. And so I started like following people who were like, we are, let us help you like in your like sexual relationships and in your body and in your own feelings and in your own desires and all of it. And I'm like, follow, follow. It follows fast as I could. And so that has been like such a fun, vibrant, exciting part of being in a new relationship at this age where there's no like shame to be had. Yeah. We're done with that. Yeah. So instead it's just like exciting and connected and healthy and fun and five out of five stars. And when you lose all the shame and you do all the work and you do all the healing and you do all the self worth building is sex and intimacy way better now than it's ever been. I just, it's almost like it can't even be compared. Wow. I don't even know that I could put it on the same playing field. Like, yeah, it's just so different because I am so different inside of it. Yeah. Also have a different awake now. I am. Yeah. And so that means that when you decide I am no longer operating from this shame story, then other things get to go. Like you're also no longer operating with all these inhibitions and with all these hangups, even with all this like body shame, you know, I body shame was a big part of that culture too. We need our bodies to look a certain way. And if we weren't desirable, be careful because they'll, your personal cheat on you and go find somebody younger and better. I, you know, I had that narrative. Yeah. So I'm like, well, this is what I got. I'm grown. I am not 24. I do not have the body that I walked into adulthood with, but this is the one that I have. Turns out it's plenty. It's enough. And that's a bad story that we've just been telling her. Ourselves all not even true. Yeah. It's not even true. Yeah. So that can go too. Yeah. And every single person listening right now, their body is plenty. It's plenty. Yeah. Hallelujah. Listen, your dude is going to be super into it. Exactly how it is. And all the weird little thoughts that we're having, how am I bending? How does it look? What is it from? What is it from this thing? No, zero men are thinking that. Is my thought like showing no one cares. No man is thinking that thought. No man. Yes. That's some dumb narrative that we are on a loop here. Yes. Barry it. Your body is just great. Like take it right into the bedroom. It's going to do the trick. In awake, you say, I will never quit me again, which means other people will be free just to love me. Not heal, complete, validate me. That's too much pressure and not their job. That is being led around blindfolded, hoping no one runs me into a wall. Again, my eyes are open. I can see for myself, I'm awake, wide awake, eyes bright and alive and scanning the horizon with great hope for the second half of my life. Awake at last. For every person listening and watching right now who's about to go run and grab their copy of awake or get it in the audio book. What final words do you want to share with them about the book, about what they're going to get out of it, about who it's for, about what your hope is for them as they dive into it? I'm so hopeful for the readers. I feel like I have this special insider knowledge having gone through the worst. Having had my entire life leveled down to the ground in every way that I knew it and learned what we are capable of, how we are capable of healing and of resurrecting a life that we are worthy of. I now know that that is possible for every single person. I feel like I have this secret and that I am now watching women who are drowning and they are hurting and they are, they're in the ER, like where I was on page one, where I started, I started in the ER. That's where they're at right now. And I want to grab them by the hands and be like, keep going. Your story is about to turn beautiful. I mean it. And again, it's not because I'm special. It's because I'm ordinary and I know what is possible. And so I feel like a friend and a big sister who's maybe a mile down the road of where a lot of my readers will find this story where they will intersect their lives. And I am like holding up a lantern and I'm like, come on, keep going. One step, get on down here. You're going to get here. You will get here. One hard step at a time, but string enough of them together. You're going to get here. And so I feel proud of women in advance for what they're going to do, for what they're going to learn, for what they realize they are capable of and that all along they're in charge of their own story and they can rewrite it. I don't care how old, I don't care if you're 89. I don't care what's happened, even if you're at fault, even if you have made choices that broke your life in a way that is devastating, even then we're worthy because we are. And so I'm excited, I'm excited for people to go, I'm going to get there. I'm going to, I want to be awake in my own life. I'm like, let's go. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. Remember this episode's not just for you and me. Please share it with every single person that you know, because it can impact and change their life too. And if you love today's episode, please click on the follow or subscribe button for the show on the app that you're listening to it on or watching it on. And if it added value to your life, if you could please give it a rating or five star review, I'd be so grateful. And again, please share it with everyone that you believe in. Share it with another person in your life who could benefit from it. You know, maybe someone you know is having a big change in their life or waking up to something new in their career or marriage or health. Please post this episode and share it with others online in your community who just might need the words and tools and lessons in this episode today. You never know whose life you're meant to change today by sharing this episode. And thank you so much for joining me before you go. I want to share some words with you that couldn't be more true. You right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams and all the unconditional love in the world. And it is an honor to welcome you to each and every episode of the Jamie Kernley-Michel. Here, I hope you'll come as you are. Heal where you need. Blossom what you choose. Journey toward your calling and stay as long as you'd like because you belong here. You are worthy. You are loved. You are love. I love you. And I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kernley-Michel. In life, you don't sort the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth. When you build your self-worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy. How to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self-doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life-changing results, like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self-love, unlearn the lies that lead to self-doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness, overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome, achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self-doubt and unshakable self-worth. Get your copy of Worthy, plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you at Worthy Book dot com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out with Worthy who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self-belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration, which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to JamieKernleama.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one-on-one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy, and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl. Subscribe at JamieKernleama.com or in the link in the show notes. And please note I'm not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.