Reinvention: Career Change and Navigating the Hidden Job Market

The hidden market is real. This is where everybody brings people to opportunities. I didn't even know that existed. I could see people landing all these things. I was just not playing the game. Hi, welcome back to How Much Can I Make? I'm your host, Mirav Ozeri. I'm so happy you're here because we have a very special show today about reinvention. Lately, we hear all the time about different sectors that are losing jobs because of AI, or because of automation. So people have to reinvent themselves, and a lot of people have to. My guest today, Ilana Golan, knows all about it. She began her career as a software engineer, realized it wasn't the right fit for her. She hit rock bottom and pivoted, not once, but repeatedly. Today, she is the founder of Leap Academy, a multimillion-dollar company helping professionals repositioning themselves in a rapidly changing job market. This month, she is hosting Lipcon. It's in Silicon Valley a few days from now, February 26 to 28. So if you happen to be in California, I urge you to go. And Ilana was gracious enough and offered $150 discount if you click on the link that's in the show notes and you register through that link. So hopefully you can make it. In our conversation, Ilana also explains the concept of portfolio career. She reveals how hidden market really works, and she makes the case that reinvention every two years is essential. So now, let's turn to Ilana Golan and hear all about it. Ilana, thanks for coming on the show. Let's start by telling us how you started as a software engineer, and how you reinvented yourself again and again. So I started, yeah, back in the days. So writing code in Intel, as geeky as it gets. It was incredible, but I think I learned pretty quick that that would not be my zone of genius. I could see the people that will light up, like coding all night long until four in the morning, and the truth is I was never there. So I knew that I'd gonna need to pivot. What I didn't know, which is kind of interesting, is can I pivot? When I started my research for the show like a year and a half or two years ago, I read that Gen Z really wanted to be a software engineer. I don't know that the new AI is coming, but... But what does... The new AI, I loved your podcast, by the way, speaking to all the different AI. Like, that was cool. Thanks. Would you recommend people to get into software engineering today when everything is so questionable about technology? It's a great question. I think, first of all, I will just start by saying that nobody knows what's gonna... I think all the experts in the world, everybody has guesses, but the truth is nobody knows. I will say that I think for every role, the exceptional will still have a really good job. The problem is that it becomes really easy to be average. And I think this is... So I think what we're going to see is that to move... To get out of the people pile, to actually move the needle, like, that's where it's gonna be really, really hard and to rise above the noise. There's a lot of noise in the system. Because of AI, everybody can look decent. Yeah, right. That's the problem. The problem is that the average just became a norm. If you're not even average, you don't even have a shot. But even as an average, you don't really have a shot because the people pile is just huge. So the exceptional, I think, will still be solid no matter what they do. You still need exceptional copywriters. You still need exceptional designers. You still need exceptional product leaders. You still need exceptional coders. It's gonna be hard to accept. The numbers are dwindling. Oh, yeah. It's gonna be Rocky Road. I think we're looking at a very bumpy road. And that's why I'm very passionate about Leap Academy. But we are looking at a very bumpy road. That's it. I want to talk about the Leap Academy. To first tell us what is the Leap Academy? So, I mean, the Leap Academy is our way to basically disrupt professional education. So I personally believe that any single person that is driven 30 to 65 right now doesn't have a home. So if you're driven, your only home is what you studied at age 20, and maybe you can take an MBA. But nothing really meets you where you are and takes you higher. With Leap Academy, we look at the space of change. When we look at how many options you have to actually make income these days, how hard it is to figure out what's even on the menu, what can you be, how can you reinvent yourself, what are the options? And because people will need to reinvent themselves every year or two, having an entity that actually take people there faster and higher is not a nice to have. I think it's a mandatory thing that I don't know why there's not a lot more things like this. So first I want to mention that your Leap Academy was the winner of a startup in 2023. So congratulations. Startup of the year, let's go. It's startup of the year. I mean, this is really an accomplishment. But what kind of people come to Leap Academy? So that's a good question. And it's also, I think it's a great example because when I started Leap Academy, if I'm being really honest, I didn't know. It came from a big pain point. So if we ever want to jump there, like I'm happy to share, but it came from a big pain point. Yeah, I'd like to know how you started it. Okay, so let me take you back in time a little bit to about a decade ago. A friend of mine came to me and said, hey, Lana, let's start a startup together. And at that point, I was vice president. I was running a team. It was really cool. But the truth is, Marav, I was burned out. I was tired. I was on flights all the time. I missed the first five years of my kid's life. And I was like, is there something else? So, and I had no clue that I can reinvent myself. But I was trapped in this, like, this is all I'm gonna be. Is this really all there is to my life? And so when this friend of mine came to me and said, hey, let's start a company together, I was like, oh my God, like, how did I not think about? That's so cool. And so we were kind of working on this day and night. And we did the whole Silicon Valley. So I live in Silicon Valley. So we did the Silicon Valley thing, right? You go and raise capital. And even that went well. So within a few weeks, they were evaluating our little baby at $5 million. Oh, wow. And I remember looking at the term sheet, closing my eyes and thinking like, oh my God, how did I get this lucky? So doing the goodbye party from a previous job as a vice president, I told everybody about the startup, about the money that we raised, of how excited I am about this new mission. Within 24 hours, Murab, that my co-founder decided to take the money, throw me out of the business, and I was left with nothing. No job, no salary, no startup, no investment. And the truth is, the worst part is my ego just came crashing down. In just like a mind-blowing way. And this was the first time that I realized, and maybe some of the listeners can relate. Like my entire identity was always attached to my title, to the company. I think most people are like that, attach their identity to their job. My identity, because I was so driven, I was so high achiever. Like my identity was, like my job was everything. My title was everything. So suddenly being a nobody, right? And I'm doing quotes, you know, for those. Like the quotes, like, because I wasn't a nobody, but I felt like a nobody. And I think that's the biggest thing. It's like, you can fall so deep, especially if you're a high achiever, especially if you're driven. And the hardest thing Murab, if I'm being really honest, losing my clarity drove me nuts. So I always knew what's next. I knew the school, I knew the thing, I knew, like I always knew what's next for me. And for the first time in my life, I found myself in this like huge void. I wasn't even sure if I'm looking for a job or I'm starting a business or I'm looking for a venture. Like I didn't even know, like, what am I doing? For somebody driven, that was really hard. Because then you start throwing spaghetti on the wall and nothing sticks and you go and people tell you to go talk to your network. And then you're all confused. So you're actually burning bridges and you becoming a red flag. And it's like, I did all the mistakes in the book Murab. And that was the lowest time in my life. You know, it's like, it was so embarrassing to actually admit this because for the first time in my life, I actually had time to be with my kids. I had time to be a mom. And the truth is, I wasn't there. I was snaggy at everybody. Because I was so unsatisfied with myself, I wasn't even the mom I was meant to be. Like I was miserable. And at that point, you know, I remember searching, how do I find my career direction? How do I find my passion? Like I searched for everything. And nothing resonate. And eventually I was like, okay, if I ever come to you. How many years ago was that? How many years? So that was exactly 2014 is when I was. Ten years, 12 years ago. So 12 years ago. And eventually I did reinvent myself and leap. And this was really fascinating, I think, because eventually I did start a tech startup. I sold it. I'm invested today in over a hundred companies. I sit on board, they sit on advisory. So I started speaking on a lot of stages. And the biggest thing for me was like, oh my God, this is so interesting. Like I do leap again and again. And I'm actually taking the same steps. I'm just doing it a little faster and higher. You know, I wish somebody, like why is nobody teaching this? And that became the calling. And that's when I decided to start leap. And initially I just thought, you know, like if there's like a couple of people in the world that feel lost, I just want to help them. Like it wasn't supposed to be a big business. It was supposed to be. I actually have something that works here. Is there anybody driven that wants to do this? Right? And the truth is it wasn't leap Academy. It was like hang out with Ilana once a week. You know, like there wasn't leap Academy. There was like a laptop and some ideas in my head and a lot of fear and a lot of doubt. And you know, and like, is there two people in the world? And maybe, and my dream was like to maybe make $20,000 out of this. Like it wasn't, it didn't come from like this big dream. But I was like, am I the only crazy person that felt so, so, so lost? And if I can find and help even one person, I already going to feel great about myself. So back to what kind of people come to leap Academy? So anybody driven, it has to be somebody driven. If somebody's never been driven, never been successful in their life. They're not starting at 60 to be. So like that's just not going to happen. But from time to time you do fall off the horse of success as I call it. And you just need to get back on, or you know that you're still a fraction of who you could be. And you just feel like there's a bigger identity inside you, but you just don't know where it's going to, like where can I become my full potential? And for me, that was about it. Like how do I take somebody that is driven and really lift them to become their full potential? Where is it going to be? And how do we make that happen? And a lot of them are executives. So senior manager, director of VPs and some of the biggest corporate, some of them are CEOs of, you know, small companies that tried something maybe didn't quite work out. But all of them know that there's a bigger tomorrow for them. They want a bigger life. They want not just the paycheck, but the life that comes with the paychecks. When I started this in 2020, yeah, there was COVID. I started two months before COVID. So that was kind of. But there was no AI yet, right? Exactly. So we didn't know the pace of change will be so mind blowing. So we thought the people will just come, reinvent themselves, leap again, like once. And that's it, right? And then I was like, oh, this is so interesting. People want to leap again and again. And because we see big data, right? We see thousands of people. So suddenly we're like, this is so interesting. Everybody wants a portfolio career, like the one I had. When you say portfolio, you mean different jobs in your history or different? No, so it's current. So multiple ventures at the same time. So for example, if you have a job, but now you're starting to on the side, mentor some startup. Again, it based on what the company allows, right? Like I'm not giving legal advice here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? If you have a job and you want to extend like to speaking opportunities or advising companies or maybe taking equity from a few companies or maybe sitting on some board. Again, really depends on where you are in the journey. Like you, first of all, it could be more income or it could position you in a different way. Or it could be the safety net that if God forbid something happens to this job, something catches you. And now is AI, what we're seeing is the portfolio career and your personal brand and leaping again and again is becoming not just a nice to have, it's actually becoming a must have. And what we are seeing is people that will win will become kind of their own economy in this respect. Oh, what do you mean? I think that's where it's really fascinating. I think the more you can look at yourself as a CEO of this portfolio of things and your own economy, like that's the biggest needle mover here because then I decide if I want a job, I decide if I want a business, I decide how much I want to charge for the business, I decide if I'm a till six or I'm a high act. All of them are good, but you decide, you create the brand, you position yourself, you are in the driver's seat, you are intentional, you are strategic and even if something God forbid happens to your job, you're always have a safety net. You can always leap forward because you have all these things to keep your float. So to me, that's really where the, this is where the economy is going because with AI, everybody can create their own business. With lovable, you create like software in two seconds with like gig economy, you can have multiple ventures with the branding, you know what I'm saying? Like everybody will have multiple brands and multiple ventures. And I think the only question is, how do you create an umbrella brand that actually position you as a lot stronger and really more relevant? So what do you teach them at the Leap Academy? So the very first thing is to really, the idea is first of all, to understand where people are right now, where they're now, where they want to be and how to get there faster and higher. And what are the gaps? So what do they need to do in order to get there? In most cases, your success already leaves clues and in most cases, you already have a lot of what you need and it's really minuscule things that you actually need like, you know, to actually close the gap. And I think if you're able to understand like, what are my moustaves? What's my zone of genius? What can I craft out of this? How do I experiment with my career? Which is so important right now because the pace of change is mind blowing, right? So you need to experiment really quick. You need to be able to jump on. The next thing you need to build your brand, build your story. And so you're gonna need to play at a different level and people will need to reinvent themselves every year or two. People don't realize it. I know, I read it on your website and I wanted to hear, people don't know how to reinvent themselves. What kind of things do people need to do in order to reinvent themselves? Yeah, I mean, first of all, people don't even realize like the shelf life of skills. There's actually really fascinating graphs about it. The shelf life of skills used to be like, you would learn something and would be serving you for 30, 40 years and you would retire with a, golden watch and a party. And if you're gonna look at the shelf life of skills right now, it's literally two, three years max. And the closer you are to technology, the less it is. So it's actually like you will find yourself reinventing and leaping. And another really interesting fact for you, Marav and for everybody listening, are whole ways of looking at successive change. So if we used to do IQ tests, right? You would do like IQ tests and if you had high IQ, you would be successful. And then a few decades ago, it moved to EQ, emotional intelligence. And I think Richard Benson is one of the first ones that said, hey, that's actually more important than IQ. And it actually gave a lot of green light to a lot of founders and leaders and it was incredible. If you're gonna check right now, the way to look at success and the most important skill right now is aq, adaptability quotient. So the first time in decades, the new measurement of success is actually your ability to adapt quick to reinvent and leap. And if you're able to do this quick, amazing, you're gonna stay relevant. If you're not able to do this, we're gonna see people lose relevant at a pace we've never seen before. So for me, my biggest calling is how do I in leap Academy able to touch 10 million lives because we are going to see tens of millions of people that need to reinvent themselves really, really quick. Can you recall a story of one of your students that came really lost and then landed a job? Many. You do? Okay, give me one. Many. I mean, Itik is a great example. He is, and again, all the stories that I mentioned, they're on YouTube, like you can see it under leap Academy, with Zalana Golan, you can see our YouTube channel. Been through it because I want you to see possibilities. But Itik was laid off, he was in the hardware space, kind of very old school, hardware boring. And he was the director when he was laid off. And he was like, I guess I can do the same role again. You could see that it sucks his soul. And he was trying to figure out what's next and how do I do this? Now the truth is with Itik, and I'll give you two very different examples, but it was Itik, he did have a little bit of time. And this is where we can play a little bit, right? Like sometimes people don't have time. Like I need a salary to yesterday. And the strategy will be a little different than I, you know, or a person, somebody that will tell me, I want to maximize. Like this is, I have a little bit of breathing room, but I really don't, like if I can avoid doing the same thing that I can do in my sleep, and it sucks my soul to start again, I want something different. With him, we tried a very similar strategy. Here in the Berkeley University, he started mentoring instead of their startups, and some of their students, he started teaching a little bit, he started positioning, doing a little bit of advisory roles, or he was taking a little bit of retainers here and there. So it created a little bit of income stream as well. So that put some of the pressure off. But with the beautiful thing is because he started getting, he started making a lot of connections with these founders and venture capitalists. So what happened is that they came to him and said, actually we have an AI company that actually needs a chief business officer. Would you be willing to try this out? And he joined them as a chief business officer. And actually what he didn't know is they were assessing if he can be the CEO. And after, you know, he proved himself a few months, now he's actually the CEO of an AI company. And again, from a director that was laid off in a boring industry in the hardware space, he moved to a CEO in the hottest space possible. But the only thing that changed is, and his confidence, his story, his branding, like the hidden market, because this is basically the only way to land, you know, like pretty incredible roles right now. Only basic connections. I need you to explain to me, what is the hidden market? So the hidden market is basically who thinks about you when you're not in the room and who's gonna bring those opportunities to you according to what you want. The hidden market is real. Like this is where everybody brings people to opportunities. I didn't even know that existed. You know, I could see people landing all these things. I was just not playing the game, right? Like I was not intentional about it. I think for me, a lot about like LeapCon is waking people in that event in San Jose, is waking up people and saying, hey, you've been sleepwalking through life. Let's wake up being really intentional and strategic because the opportunities are there all the time. The question is, are you awake to grab them? You just mentioned Leap Academy. That's your conference in San Jose. Sounds very interesting, but I need some explanation for some things that I read on the page of the conference. You said that while you're doing whatever, new species of professional has evolved. They don't apply for jobs. They don't rely on paycheck. They don't fill layoffs. Are you talking about entities or human? Humans, but so here's the thing. First of all, every single person, if you're gonna look at the top millionaires and billionaires, they all have a portfolio career or many of them. And the richer they are, the more portfolio they have. And for me, the question then became, why is nobody teaching this? If this is so common, then where is that? You can go to university and learn a certain skill, but you don't learn how to create multiple ventures for yourself. And what's interesting about portfolio, it's sometimes it's extra income, but sometimes these multiple ventures, some of them are to close gaps that you have. Sometimes it's to position you in a certain way. So I'll give you an example, like somebody that went to leap early. So for him, the biggest thing is like, he was a director in a company, but he really felt like he can do more executive level stuff, right? So for us, and again, he was debating what's next. He was like, maybe entrepreneurship. I'm like, ah, you need safety net. So you're not really looking for entrepreneurship. Like that's not gonna happen. But like, can you maximize the corporate environment that you're in, right? So with him, what we did is like, we saw that he can like do really well in mentoring startup accelerators. And that's a venture that usually people don't think about, but it's actually, if you think about it, Marab, you literally have to sit with CEOs of small companies and help move the needle on the company, right? So now you have to think marketing. You have to think sales. You have to think go to market. Like, so suddenly from this director of product, which is where he's been, now he needs to think of the overall picture. So more and more he's starting to learn what a CEO actually cares about. Now he's starting to position himself as somebody that can move their needle on a company. They're starting to see him in some panels and being a judge in some startup competitions and all sort of things. Within a few, I don't know, a couple of months or whatever, his company actually moved him to have VP, a vice president. And he's like, Elana, this is so interesting. For three years I've been begging for this VP role and they always said no. And now they see me on this panel and they see me advising some companies and I'm a VP, like how is that happening? He started doing some speaking advice, like advising a little more companies. And actually IBM noticed him and actually hired him to run the entire hybrid cloud for all of IBM. That is a seven figure salary right there. You're asking for salaries? That's a seven figure salary right now. So, you know, so that, and again, his life completely shifted, but in his case, we used portfolio career, not necessarily as extra income, but it was more for closing a gap between director and C-suite because he could position himself in a completely different way. Yeah, but wait a minute. You said that you saw that he has the potential to be there. Was it a one-on-one sessions you had with him? How did you see that? How did you recognize that? I don't need to do necessarily. Well, first of all, I have a lot of coaches, so I don't need to do the one-on-one. But the truth is, there's always, there's already a way to see if somebody already has, so there's like levels in leadership. Like you need to kind of see if they can lead themselves and then you can see if they have an executive presence and then you can see if they can actually inspire people to follow them, right? Like if you think about it, a leader is somebody that has followers. It's not a title. So if nobody follows you, you're not a leader. I don't care about your title, right? So you kind of like, there's like stages that you can look at. And when you can actually see the stages, you can see like where you need to grow as a leader. And then how do you build more authority and be more in the hidden market to get some of these opportunities? So you say about that conference, if people come, you say, I'm quoting now, by the end you will live, you'll be someone who creates opportunity out of thin air. I mean, that's a huge promise. It's kind of true. So I'll tell you how I see that. That we call it LeapCon 2026, but the big title is the new possible. And I think most people don't even understand what's even on the menu. So what we try to do in a conference like this, I don't believe in information. You can get free information almost everywhere. You can learn about how to put a banner on LinkedIn without me. I think where it becomes interesting is to understand what's even on the menu. And the reason why we say that the person that you come in will be different than the person that come out is because you will see that out of 8 billion people in the world or whatever we are now, there's no way that you can sell some service or some value for 10K, 15K, 20K, 30K, whatever, 100s of K, and that completely shift the paradigm. Suddenly it becomes from, I can't afford something to, great. What do I need to sell to afford it? In that freedom, this is the freedom I'm talking about. Because that just builds every, like it shifts everything in your mind from I can't do something, I can't have the next vacation, I can't have the home, I can't have to, okay, great. So how many services do I need to sell in order to achieve that? So it's never been easier to tell the world what you wanna be known for. It's never been easier, I agree with you, but it's never been so hard to go through the clutter. There's so much content out there. Good point, so I totally agree. So if I need to name the two more important skills right now, one is adaptability, so that adaptability caution is the ability to reinvent the leap. Second one is the psychology, understanding the psychology of rising above the noise. And to get out of the people pile is actually a skill that you're gonna need to learn. It's a skill that we teach in LeapCon. I have to go to LeapCon. To me, that is one of the most incredible skills that you need, because again, even in my podcast, you saw it, I need to somehow rise above the noise with the millions that are reaching out to some of the biggest leaders of our time. That's why the president of Starbucks former is coming to LeapCon. That's why the founder of CERA is coming to LeapCon, the guy Kawasaki, like get out of the people pile. But wait a minute, those big names, and those are big names in business and leadership for sure, are coming to speak on LeapCon 2026? Yeah, they're coming in a few weeks to San Jose, California. That's fantastic. And the reason is, Moab, it's because it's so important. This is one of the most important messages we've ever had. And I do hope that every single person will actually be there because the hidden market is real. And to get out of the people pile, people actually need to see you. So the more they see you, the more you connect, the more you build that trust face to face is actually priceless. Most people that come to you are in the technology field? I think a lot of them, I would say there's also so tech, retail, everything is tech these days. Like honestly, like health, finance, education, nonprofits, like we've seen, I think every single type of industry. Was there a person that came from a field or a profession that totally surprised you? I don't know from a field that surprised me. I mean, we had people that were selling wine or we have things that I didn't know that they're gonna find value or somebody that was doing arts. So we did find, we did have some things that were maybe a little surprising. I think for me, for example, Mavish was one of the interesting leaps that we had. Not so much because of the space, but because she was an immigrant, she was from Pakistan. She just didn't know how to play the American game. And I could see that she's so talented. She has some pretty good credentials, but she is working for $25 an hour. And I was just like, there's no way that she's, I mean, the truth is, Marav, she had nothing to lose because I would have fired her for more than $25 an hour. Like the truth is, like I was just like, I'm, I knew my dear son, you're coming in and I like you. You have a job, no matter what. But she didn't know that. But she was making $25 an hour. And the interesting thing is within three weeks. And we actually, again, we have a video of her in YouTube. It was phenomenal to see within three weeks. It was very clear that the type of job that she is doing is actually a $75 an hour job. Like this is just a stats. So you don't even need confidence for anything at that point. Like you just need her to go back to her boss and say, I actually heard this is a $75 an hour. Like that's all she needed to do. And she did. And he was like, okay. And she's like, Elana, for three years, I've been working there for $25 an hour. Like how is that even possible? And then by the way, what's interesting. So here it was, she was three extra job, her salary, which I'm not saying, right? Not everybody will three extra salary in three weeks. Okay. Like that's not a promise here. But the interesting thing is like, okay, now that everything is possible and you understand it, what do you really want? And she's like, you know what my dream was to go to one of the big consulting companies. And I'm like, okay. And we have connections everywhere. This is the beautiful part about having a hidden market and being in the room with the people that actually have the connections and all of that. And she played all in. Don't get me wrong. It's not easy for somebody making $25 an hour to afford Deep Academy. I'm not gonna lie to you, right? But it was like, she did. She was very hungry. I love people that are all in. And it shows me how driven she is because that's again, that's how she's gonna show up to everything she does. And she landed in four months. She landed an incredible role in Accenture for $210,000 a year. Wow. And she came on the Zoom and she was crying, crying, Marav. And I was like, and she's like, do you know what is the, you changed my life. I can't tell you enough. And do you know what is the first thing I've done? And I was like, no, share with us. And we were all there, like all rooting for her. And she's like balling. And she's like, I bought for the first time in five years a ticket for all of us to go visit my family in Pakistan. We couldn't afford to go. So anyway, so these are some of like the most touching, I think stories. That's a great story. Yeah. Feel very lucky. Yeah, you're changing people's lives, of course. What type of person should not come to Deep Academy? Oh, that's a very important question. So anybody looking for a magic wand, a get rich quick, it's a magic pill to just like sit on the beach, get, you know, flip margaritas. And we're just going to look for a job for you. That is not it. So like that is not on the menu. I really don't believe in it. I don't think that this is what works. I don't think that this is even finders that they call themselves finders. This is not how it works. Even recruiters, that's not really how it works. So you're going to need to play a game. And you're actually going to need to work hard. So if somebody is willing to work hard, they're hungry, they're awesome, and they are driven, they want a bigger tomorrow for themselves. And again, the best way to learn and at least witness some of the magic is come to DeepKhan. Like I can't stress it enough. I can't think of a bigger environment to make such connections with such prominent people and start seeing possibilities way beyond what you're seeing today. So first of all, whether you're looking for a job, you're looking to fast-track to a leadership, you want to start your own business, build portfolio career, whatever it is, come to DeepKhan first of all, because it will show you possibilities way beyond what you're thinking is available. And it will help you create the connections to land these opportunities. Yeah, that's very important, too. So if you had to start all over again, what would you have done differently? That's a good question. And I know some people say that they wouldn't do anything differently because the mistakes made them who they are. And I call that BS for me. I'm making that. I would say two things. One, I would wake up a lot faster in my career. I was sleepwalking through life. And I felt great. Like people brought opportunities to me, but then I kept getting stuck in those opportunities because I'm loyal and I'm hardworking. And I'm in general just a happy, grateful person. So I just kept getting stuck in places. First of all, I would wake up. I would become a lot more intentional and strategic with my brand, with what's next, with my networking, with my possibilities. Second, I would lean a lot more on help. So I'm sorry that I didn't even appreciate coaches until 2019, if I'm being really honest. It's hard to say. And that was probably one of the biggest fears for me because again, if I didn't appreciate them, why would I want to run a coaching company? It almost didn't make sense. But for me, again, they were either motivational, like, who, who, who, you can do it. And I'm like, I know I can do this. Like I just don't know what, how. I need the one, two, three. Like I'm an engineer. I need you to spell it out for me. And if I have a map, I can follow it. When I learn how to find the right mentors and coaches for myself, life changing. Life changing, I can't describe it enough. Like I can name all the programs, all the coaches that have changed my life right now. I usually like post about them. I, like they change my trajectory of my life. And if I can do this for others, that's what I'm here to do on this earth. Wow. I have six coaches right now, Marav. Six. Oh. One for the business, one for podcasts, one for LinkedIn, one for Instagram, one for the book. Like it's just crazy. Like I'm just like slamming all my revenue, doubling it down on the coaching because it will always take it faster and forward. By the way, your podcast is great. I listened to the Richard Brown song and to the Shopify and I'm gonna listen to more. They're really, you get amazing guests. Really. I do. I feel very grateful. And you have done an incredible job in the interview. So thank you, Marav. Thank you. It was so, you know, I have to call my nephew and tell him we should go into the academy. Let's go. Yeah. Thank you so much. As always, this is how much can I make where I break down real paths, real pivots and the economics behind careers. See you next time.