Ferrari Blasphemy and Sacrilege w/ Stanceworks Mike Burroughs & Ferrari Tech Victoria Bruno

What's up everybody? Welcome to another episode of Very Vehicular. This one is an interesting one. It is the strangest collection of Ferrari owners all in the same place. In this corner, we've got the purist of Ferrari mechanic works on the car bearer cars. And on this side, this person stopped the Honda engine in a Ferrari. Yeah, we got Victoria Bruno and Mike Burroughs and me, the reluctant Ferrari owner, somehow sitting as referee as we watch these two duke it out, purism versus sacrilege. It's a great one. I enjoyed listening to them. You should do. What's up guys? So we're going to start neither of you know each other like you literally met in my driveway. Wait, there's someone else here. Okay. This is already off to a fantastic start. I love this. So Mike, Victoria, nice for you to meet each other. Yeah, nice to meet you. I'm excited for this. I know that we've got kind of like opposite ends of what might be a very interesting spectrum. 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It's also very quiet for its level of grip, whether you're looking for a tire for your daily, your truck or your track toy. Check out ToyoTires.com. A few years back, I had the privilege to set up the first collab between Heatway Visual and Hoonigan Industries. And I'm excited to see they're continuing this year with the new Travis Pastrana Jim Khanna FutureTech glasses. These look rad. Plus, they're super safe because they live up to ANSI Z87 standards with 2mm thick lenses. That's right, safety glasses and shades all in one. The arms are wrapped in the Brattaroo livery, both inside and out, and the Hydro nose pad makes these wearable all day long. Go grab your pair on HeatwayVisual.com while they last. Well, let's just get the elephant in the room right out. All three of us own Ferraris. All of us own very different Ferraris. So what is sitting in my driveway right now? A 1987 Testerosa. And you drove it from where? The Bay Area. Which is like how many miles for those who don't know California? Let's round up to 400. Pretty impressive. And you also were just brave enough to go up against Los Angeles traffic on a Friday to get here, which is pretty incredible. Yeah, thankfully, this thing has cooling fans. Oh yeah, that's good. And 12 cylinders. So you know, if one goes out, it'll be okay. Yeah. And what do you got right now, Mike? Yeah, I don't even know what to call it. It's kind of a 308, an 81 308 GTBI. What's left of one? It's a time attack race car with a Honda K-Series in the back of it. So just first, just like, how does that make you feel? Are you okay with that? You can be honest. This is an honest show. Please be honest. Because it's a 308. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah, that compliment's coming this direction. It is. But I'll take it. You know, if it were a Daytona or a 275 or a pretty much any 250, I maybe would get up and leave. That mean, we'll get into the details. So you will get to that. So tell me about the other one. Let's see what she has to say about that. Yeah, the other project is I have the body, an authentic F40 body. I'm building a tube chassis underneath it, 458 challenge suspension and geometry. And then in the back of it, I'm cramming a 812 Superfast V12 along with a Hollinger sequential gearbox building more or less a race car out of it. Are you at all Italian in any way, shape or form? Honestly, I don't know. We were talking about our heritage before this and everybody always likes to tell me where they're from and like, I got no idea. But I don't think so. He doesn't look like one of us. No. No, I'm not. Is that why you put him at the end? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's fine. It's fine. Do you like have, can you trace back where your family's from in Italy? Like, do you know? I can. Yeah. Sicily and Naples. Oh, mine too. We might be related. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know where in Naples? I don't know. My family's from Ischka and then also from Sicily. So yeah, same thing. So real good mob ties. That's pretty much that. That's pretty much the place. My family changed their name a couple of generations back. Oh, okay. So can I confirm nor deny why? My full name is, I said that before we started the show is Scato Di Fazzano, but it was really long for scantron testing as a kid. So like, I'm pretty sure we shortened it. Scato is also like a really good nickname. Most people just think my name is Scott and then like add an O to it. So for like, there's people I've known for like two decades who actually just call me Scott. Like, that's not my name, but it's okay. Not quite. Yeah. So anyway, obviously she's pointed out that you clearly lack. Not Italian at all. Yeah. So at least any Mediterranean DNA. Nope. So that's not a bad. Is that blasphemous for you? I'm so happy you used that word. That's, I'd say nine times out of 10, the word I used to describe a sort of change that's, you know, maybe taken away from the integrity of how the car was when it left the factory. Right. But I've also, yes, remember, all of my experience is in preserving and restoring cars back to factory spec. We don't mod anything. We don't change anything. Maybe we'll hop up the cams a little bit, but we're really, really trying to kind of, Which means you also don't like my car because mine's like, mine would be like the Putin nesca of Ferrari 360s. Well, I think, see, this is where, this is where the box needs to grow. I think there's a place for everything. And I think I've spent a lot of time learning the history and the provenance of these cars. But I also think if you love something, then it should absolutely be the way that you love it. And it's fun to mod cars. It's fun to, you know, have, go in those sorts of directions. So I'm not, I'm not judging anyone. I'm not, my car's not better than yours because it's stock. Your car's better than mine. Your car's better than mine because it's a Testerosa and mine's like a risotto like spec, you know, 360 that's got an NGT kit on it that like started its life as a stock, you know. Can we get that on a t-shirt? What? Risotto specs. Yeah, it's a full ricer spec Ferrari, but I love it. I love it because I like that it's loud and over the top. My wife hates it because it's red because she feels like it's supposed to be red. I agree, but she's not a Ferrari person to begin with. And then the fact that I bought a Ferrari and I also got it in red, like just, she likes understated. You've seen my house. She's a minimalist. Fair, but to that point, what, because we were talking about this earlier, what is a Ferrari person or any of us Ferrari people? Are you a Ferrari guy? No, not at all. Are you a Ferrari person? Absolutely not. Are you a Ferrari person? I'd say I'm a Ferrari person. Oh, okay. Yeah. But do I have to be? Do I have to be stuck with that title? You can be whatever you want. Can I evolve and grow and change? Of course. Will you all accept me if I do that? Hopefully. Yeah, I don't know. I think at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. I mean, do whatever I want. Like, so we don't know each other either. We literally met in my driveway. You said, Hey, I'm going to be in LA. You want to catch up? And I said, sure, you want to come on a podcast and get ambushed by us? No, non-Ferrari purists. But I know you from Instagram and that you are a Ferrari mechanic. Give us like a, just a quick background on that. You don't have to go too long. I'm sure you told your story a thousand times before. There's a really good IG reel that gives the background about that. But give it to those who don't have time to go look. Sure. So I was born and raised in LA. Obviously, the car culture here is heavy, but I came from a family that was not interested in it at all. So I was interested in it. I watched cool cars drive out the window of my mom's minivan or drive down the street while I was looking outside of my mother's minivan and always just had a passion for it, but it was kind of shut down when I was a kid. So I embraced it as something that I would pursue later in life. And I didn't know what that looked like. Fast forward, the pandemic hits. I'm miserable. I got laid off of my job as a waitress. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I asked myself probably the most important question to date, which is, what's my passion? And it was working on vintage cars. I didn't know what that looked like. And so you had a passion for something you had never done? Yes. Okay. I like that. I'm into it. Trust me, I got a passion for project cars. I've never worked on them. Yeah. I mean, I think you know when you feel a connection to something. Yeah. And I was really interested in design and I thought I was going to do something that maybe on paper is more artistic. I thought I was going to want to do body work or metal fabrication. And then I went to school and instantly fell in love with engine rebuilding and basically all things mechanical. So I put all of my time and energy into really kind of expediting my growth as fast as I could because I was transferring into a four year program as a junior. So I only had 18 months to develop a skill set that would allow me to be sufficient enough to be able to walk into a shop and work on cool cars. And so I just set the bar really high. I always loved Ferraris and it also was something that sounded impossible. So I just made that my goal. And then luckily when I graduated, I got a job at one of the best Ferrari mechanical restoration shops in the country, if not the world and that's where the purism comes from is working in there. Definitely. And I think with the school too, I mean, they teach you restoration. They don't teach you resto mods. They teach you how to work on cars, how to do things sort of the right way, not as far as mods go, but as far as just you know, knowing when turning a bolt is or knowing when you're going too far when you're turning a nut or something like that. So the technical side, that's what I've been trained to do. And that's what I have the most hands on experience doing is that specific niche. Oh, you are amongst the wolves right now. I was just saying, have you considered that maybe you are part of a cult that this could be indoctrination? This is an intervention. My God. Yeah, we're going to have you work. How this is going to end is I'm going to hand you an impact wrench and you're going to remove the intake cup out of the intake. From my Ferrari. I think it's actually really interesting because I've worked on a lot of cars in my life and there's definitely like Ferraris living this weird like black arts world where people like are afraid to work on them. For example, I just got my Ferrari serviced at my Porsche shop, which is BBI. Why didn't I service it? Because you live all the way up in. That's actually where I bought the car from. I bought the car from San Mateo and drove it down. Oh, really? Yeah. So when I got the car, I picked it up there and it was rad because I took the one down. It took me 10 and a half hours to get home and it was still probably like the most important day I've had with the car because like I bought it. I finally bought a Ferrari, drove down through Big Sur with my best friend Tony Harmer in the car and we just like cruised, took our time to take really cool photos that were just dorky and you know, just like those moments and yeah, it was amazing just to like windows down, listen to it the whole way. It's still probably my peak moment of owning the car, which is kind of like owning a boat where the best day is the first day you own it and the last day you own it, which I guess is probably similar for a lot of Ferrari. But you know, I've had a 911 now for, I don't know, since 2010. So like I definitely feel like more of a Porsche guy and I bought my Ferrari for a lot of different reasons. But one of the reasons was just because my 911 was getting an engine rebuilt and I didn't have that super cool car in my pack. So I was like, 360s, the price was dropping on them and I'm like, okay, I'm going to buy one while they're dipping because like I've watched the Ferrari market since I was young and there's always this like math of the car is not cool enough, old enough to be cool in vintage, but not new enough to be cool to like guys who want a new Ferrari and they hit this bottom. And I watched it happen with the 355 and it went from like 40 grand to 150 grand in like five years. I was like, okay, I'm going to pick one up now. Well, I think there's this stigma that is just attached to every Ferrari ever made, which is that it's really complicated. It's a pain in the ass to work on. It's really expensive. But I, but it is. It is. Let me just tell you the story. My air conditioning wasn't working. And I was like, man, if I, if the AC worked in this thing, I'd probably drive it more because it's a fun car in the summer. So I was like, I just need to get the air conditioning fixed. I was quoted $5,000 for a compressor and then found out that it's the exact same compressor that's in a Ford Transit and just got the Ford Transit compressor. And it's like, I think that's the part that scares people about Ferraris is things. How much was the Transit compressor though? $265, like super cheap. She's, I can tell she's, she wants to get under the car right now and remove it because I'm sure it wasn't made because Ferrari used GM smog equipment. Yeah, they didn't look, they were like, why would we design anything? Well, this already works. Let's just take, I have a GM alternator on my Testerosa because that's what it was from the factory. Right. And also like they didn't care, things that didn't matter for performance. They were okay to use something that was like tried and true. Right? Like they didn't care to make the ultimate compressor. But for me, even the Porsche shop was like, ah, there's just certain stuff we don't want to do because like we don't have the specialty in it. Right. And I think that there is like Ferrari is one of the few brands where people are like, yeah, I don't work on that. Like you have to know what you're doing. And you dived right into that space. You dived into the space where most mechanics are like, yeah, I don't want to touch that. But you're like, yeah, I'm there. Cause like my friend Vinny, I do you know Vin, Vin Natura? Like I think he gets so much sort of like, I don't know if it's respect or whatever, but it's like, he's one of the few people who like work on their 360s and talk about working on it and like dive into stuff and just like figure it out. And at the end of the day, Vinny's like, yeah, man, it's just a car. That's exactly how I feel. And I think also too, a lot of the people that have been working on these cars, gatekeep information. And at the end of the day, it's just nuts and bolts. It's going to function the way any other internal combustion engine functions. So I think if you have confidence in your own ability, then that should be enough to get you to execute the job well. But also, I mean, same with any job, stay humble enough to know when you need to ask for help. Yeah. So Mike, because Victoria probably doesn't know your background at all. And she just knows that you have created this blasphemous Ferrari, actually two of them. Why don't you just quickly, because we could spend an entire podcast, we could send an entire podcast just talking about your history and everything, how you got here. But to me, like, I kind of forget that you have a Ferrari, because I know you for like the Model A BMW project, I know you obviously for Rusty Slammington, like, I know you for all the early stuff that you did that lived way more in sort of this Euro meets hot rod space. And now there's like this whole new audience of guys who know you because you are molesting Ferraris. No, I think that's really fair. These days, it is interesting to me that it feels like most people that I encounter as like my channel and audience grows have no idea that there's anything from the past or that I'm anything but like a big Ferrari guy, which is a running joke that everybody keeps calling me. I do not identify as a Ferrari guy. I own them kind of by happenstance, like the first one was intentional and the second one was an opportunity. But yeah, I guess like my roots, I consider myself a diehard BMW guy, like through and through vintage BMWs from the 1980s. That's like, that's my thing. I literally bought another E28 5 Series. Yes, two days ago. It's my 15th one. So like, that's what I'm about. How I got here, I don't know, I'm just I'm just riding the wave of having fun. I like making weird cars, crazy projects. I don't think that anything is sacred. And they're kind of like no rules. So that's that's why I have these very odd ball Ferraris. And also before Mike was like known as a builder, he was a media guy, because he ran Stanceworks, which was like, I don't know, one of the cooler websites, I think for a long time, I'll give you that. I appreciate that. Because I think there was this period of time where that sort of build culture was blowing up on the internet. And there was a lot of stuff out there. But I think you guys had like a very curated sense of what to put in there. And it was also broader than what we were seeing. Right. And I'm not just saying that because you guys covered my napalm Nova. But it was also cool that you did because like most people would never have included a 72 Nova in that world. But because mine was slammed and differing and had like, you know, a Japanese kind of flair to it, you guys saw it differently. So yeah, I mean, so we had back in the day when blogs were a thing, if we all remember that. Yeah, that's this vlogs, man, I do too. It's it bums me out. Nobody reads long format content anymore. Like that's why I pivoted to YouTube, because like I'd be pouring my heart and soul into writing things and then realizing like, oh yeah, like 15 people read this, cool, that was worth the effort. So I had to pivot at some point. But yeah, for for well over a decade, we ran a blog that I would say was successful and you know, like left a mark in the in the industry and community. And we tried to just celebrate anything that I thought was cool. That was like, that was the rules. When Andrew and I saw something, if we thought it was cool, we were going to share it. It didn't matter if it was like a European car, like we were interested in, or if it was a hot rod, or you know, vintage race cars, whatever it was, restoration, anything that was cool. That's like, hey, let's let's share this thing's story. I think that's rad. But I think that's the really cool thing about the automotive industry is there really is space for everyone at every level. Oh, for sure. And it's only getting bigger and bigger, which I think is interesting. Let's, it's actually brings up an interesting conversation because like Instagram has been very good to you. I'm you're on TikTok as well. Just starting on TikTok. But yeah, but like Instagram has been very good to you. Very telling your story. Like, is that something that you saw as a pathway early on? Or were you just like, I want to go work on Ferraris and it'd be cool to make some content about it. Because you have very much been thrusted into sort of the creator space by telling stories about working on Ferraris. Yeah, kind of by accident. I think I, if I had seen some version of myself 10 years sooner, I would have 10 more years of experience. And so my goal in sharing my story was to just let people know that it's an option that one, you can follow your dream passion. I know it's so cheesy, but it's true, whatever it is, you, it's an option. You can pursue it. One, two, careers in the trades are not of the past. You know, this is a thriving industry. It's only going to continue to get bigger and bigger. And I wanted to expose especially the next generation to the restoration industry. And three, I genuinely love my job. I love working on cars. I learn something new every day. I constantly run into issues. I'm really competitive and stubborn. So it's really great for me to have to fix things without, you know, solutions and have to come up with them. So I get a lot of fulfillment out of it. So it was really more of a, I chose to start sharing my story because I, I just have so much passion for the path that I've chosen. It just kind of came naturally. But you enjoy the storytelling part of it too? I do. I wasn't anticipating growing my page to the extent that it's, it's gone. So it was something that I initially almost sort of rejected and wanted to backtrack on. Because I kind of had a goal. I was like, okay, I'll go for 10,000 followers in one year. And just, you know, the goal is to encourage other people, inspire them to pursue their passions. And then it kind of blew up overnight. So yeah. And how many followers do you have now? Just under 200,000. Yes, you've done okay. You've done well. So all right, let's get into something that we can argue about. That's always, that's always kind of fun. So I want to go back to sort of, I thought it was interesting when you said, oh, it's a 308. So let's, let's, let's get some lists going, right? A thing I keep telling everyone, eventually I want to do another podcast, which is a show called Firing Order, where we just basically bring people on to make a list and fight over it. Right? Like, I want to be guest number one. Yeah, I know. And that's like, we could do a version of it today, but like, this isn't the full blown show. Like in the future, I would give you your homework so you can do your research. You could come in like guns loaded, ready to go, right? Here you're kind of just hitting you with it. So, you know, it'll be easy. But I like this as an idea. So what would you say are like the list of cars, list of Ferraris that it's okay to Frankenferrari? 308, Mondial, 360, 355, really, really the eight cylinder cars. Okay. Yeah. And I think, then we're safe. F40 is an eight cylinder. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't mod a sort of true F40, though. And I don't mean that as an insult to your F40. I do not take it that way. I have, I just mean that as a, you know, numbers matching everything, OG, I couldn't tear that apart. I could. Good for you. I'd be losing sleep at night. But no, I think that list is there where it's just higher production cars. That's probably where I feel more comfortable with it. Right. Yeah. Like what about the newer cars? Like where do you feel? That's the thing that is so outside of my wheelhouse. The newest Ferrari that I've ever worked on is a 360. Well, that's why she didn't work on your car then. Yeah, I know. She's, well, I have a 360, but it's barely there. It's like, it's just, yeah. So have they sent USC synthesis yet? No, that's the question they get the most. And I don't think that I will hear from them. I have not heard from them after at this point, 150 episodes on my 308 and talking maybe it's because they don't care about the 308 though. And I don't think that they do. And like I speak very poorly of how that car is built and that era of car and what have you. Very intentionally, only in one episode of my F 40 project have I called it a Ferrari. And that was episode one for the sake of like, Hey, I'm explaining what I'm doing here ever since I avoid the F word. I called an F 40. I do not call it a Ferrari because I think that they're going to care about that car. And I think I need to be careful about branding. When people get a cease and desist from Ferrari, it is only around two things. It is protecting their trademark and brand name or because you're making money off of their stuff. If you're using their car and their brand on your merchandise, you're going to hear from them. If you are using their name or what they feel might be threatening to their name, you're going to hear from them. I will not be putting Ferrari badges on my F 40 because that would get me a letter. I cannot do that. That would get me a C and D. So I think that there's like different areas where I need to be careful about what I'm doing. But so far, no. And if I was going to hear from them at this point, I would have. Like I know plenty of people that have gotten Ferrari cease and desist, all of them with smaller audiences or views or what have you. By the way, to me, like the whole cease and desist on like modifying your Ferrari is just like just absolutely bonkers. But I don't think that it's real. I think people like to pride themselves on because there's a lot of like ego to be had and being like, yeah, I got in trouble for modding my Ferrari. They don't like it, right? Like that's a cool thing to say. Let's let's write. So do you think it actually doesn't exist? I think that people get cease and desist from Ferrari all the time. But like the most common example would be dead mouse and he had that Ferrari that was wrapped in the, you know, like the rainbow and the cat and stuff. And people love to be like, Oh, Ferrari got upset with him because he modified that car. It wasn't because he modified the car. It's because he changed the badge to have a cat on it and called and it said Ferrari. Ferrari needed to protect their trademark and they're going to do everything they have to to protect them. You know, they are one of the most recognizable brands in the world. Absolutely. Like when you look at that list, it's, you know, Nike, Coca-Cola, Ferrari. So like they have an incredible brand presence. So like I get it from the brand side. They need to protect it. And I'm there's like a small chance there's going to be, you know, one of these Ferrari lawyers sitting there like watching me talk with this confidence thinking like, all right, buddy, watch this. But I feel loosely confident in what I'm saying because at this point, after five years of publishing regular videos about these cars, I haven't heard anything. Do they not own F40? I am going to refrain from answering that because I'm not educated enough to really know what I'm talking about. But he also doesn't want this podcast to be used in the deposition. Yeah. I don't know exactly what Ferrari owns with respect to that word. But so far, I have not heard a CCC assist. The F40. You know, I think if what I was doing was problematic, I have absolutely no doubt that I would have heard about it at this point. So fair enough. I know people that have just taken the Cavalino Ramponte, the horse from the emblem, and used it in their logo. They work on cars. You can't do that. They got a CND. But I also know of somebody that changed their name, their last name to be Ferrari, so they wouldn't get a CND. That's interesting. Just because they wanted that level of association. That's a little much. But that one is, but also respect. I'm fully on the CND for using the logo in the wrong way. 100%. That's obviously classic. I would do the same. We used to CND people at Hoonigan all the time. People would be like, oh, they would name something, something else, Conan. It's like, yeah, you're getting a CCC assist. Oh, we're calling it, you know, who again? Yeah, you're getting a CCC assist. And sometimes we wouldn't even want to send it. But you have to. If you don't protect your mark, then other people will come after you. And that's kind of one of the things you have to do. So even if you're like, I don't really mind, I mean, we dealt with it. I used to sit on the board of the Audi Club. And it's like, there was all these rules we had to deal with, because even though it was the Audi Club of America, there was certain things we could use and certain things we couldn't and certain marks, because at the end of the day, Audi has to protect their brand, you know, even though it's like this sanction thing, right? So like, I get that. I think it's more of the, hey, you've painted your car or you've put a wing on it or you put a body kit on it. Like, is that really happening? Or do you don't think it's actually happening? I don't think that that happens. I think that that's a myth. I think that people get seasoned assists because they've broken a rule tangent to what they've done to their car. Like changing the logo. Like changing the logo. Or maybe they've put, like, let's say, maybe they're selling merch and they've put their Ferrari that they've modified on their merch. And Ferrari says, hey, we own the trade dress of that, you can't do that. Or things like that. And I don't have an exhaustive list, of course. But I don't think outside of some circumstances that that's what happens, especially not with layman and their layman level cars like we have. Like we could do whatever we wanted to that Testerosa outside and we won't, but we could. And they're not going to say anything about it. They're not going to care. The only car that I'm aware of that had that problem is the F40 Barquetta guy took one of the 19 LMs and he cut the roof off of it and turn it into this Roadster race car. And he went out and he was racing this thing. Now, again, it could be more to it than because he, you know, bastardized that car. I don't know the details, but he was, he got a cease and desist. He had to remove the Ferrari badging from that car and Ferrari removed that car from their registry. It is no longer an LM. So now there are 18 F40 LMs. Now shunned. Totally shunned. You're like, you can't sit with us anymore. So is that because he cut the roof off the car? It could be. I would get it if Ferrari said, no, that is one of our absolute halo pieces. We won't stand for that. And we want to do what we can to distance ourselves from that. Could be. I would get it. But also, is there room for him to have done something that Ferrari needed to protect themselves and then maybe went overboard? There's also room for that too. Will we ever hear the true story? I don't think so. Yeah, but it's interesting because Ferrari is not coming after anybody that's cut up a 365 chassis to make it look like a cow spider. You know, that to them is okay because that chassis isn't sacred, but there's something about only so many existing, which I can understand, you know, wanting to really, be able to have control over the narrative there. I just, I'm, and again, I could be ignorant, like I'm not an authority on this stuff, but I'm not convinced that cars getting modified gets a cease and desist from Ferrari. I think, I mean, there are plenty of F40s out there, one of their, you know, big five or big six in this case, get modified all the time. And no one's getting barked at for it. No one's getting in any hot water. I just, I don't think for the most part, unless you're doing something they feel is justified in needing to protect, maybe even kind of like you said, where they have to protect their trademark or branding or what have you, because if they don't, then they're gonna, they're gonna sacrifice their ownership of it. I think that's when most of it comes in. So we're saying that this is an urban legend for Clickbait? My opinion, absolutely. I hear people say, I got a cease and desist for what I did, we're surrounding their Ferrari all the time. And I'm over here saying, I think that's bullshit, because I know I've done way more to my car. And I ain't heard anything. I have had, I have videos where I'm sitting here just tearing apart how this car is built, the quality of it, the welds. But like I can take my 81 Ferrari and put it right next to my 82 Audi, which is like this, you know, bastard stepchild of Volkswagen that didn't have this crazy budget to be made. And that Audi is nicer in every single possible measurable way period, how it's built is better in every way. I don't care what aspect we're talking about. And when we're talking about a car that has similar production numbers to a 308, now, and I know that there's, there's more differences at play here, but like, it just leaves me like when I get underneath that car or other cars that I'm not going to name that are halo cars of theirs of the same era, they're not nice. They're not nice underneath. All right, you have 30. You want to pop outside and go under my testarace? I know what it looks like underneath. Victoria, you got 30 seconds for rebuttal. We're on the debate show now. Oh my gosh. Let me ask this. Do you think your car is nice underneath? I actually do think my car is nice underneath from your craftsmanship and cleanliness perspective or from Ferraris? I think because I think you could do absolutely everything meticulous restoration of a lifetime. You could like, let's call it a million dollar restoration on your car. And I still think that it would be garbage underneath. I don't think that's the point though. I think that's why I love my car so much. And that's why I'm going to drive the hell out of it. Take it from 14,000 miles to 114,000 miles. It's because they're meant to be used. They're not meant to be perfect. I'm cool with that. That also means that craftsmanship, I mean, restoring something to at the shop, we don't take cars apart and put them back together and make them perfect. If anything, if they're competing at a concor, they're going to have points deducted for over restoration because it's not about being perfect. It's about being what it was. And I think it's okay that it wasn't perfect. I'm not striving for perfect. I think that there's like a level of like what I would call like acceptable craftsmanship that when the car community as a whole, we all put Ferrari on a pedestal. It's like, it's the number one. I think we probably all feel that way in some regard. And that is like across the board. It's the number one brand. It's the big dog. When we put these cars on this pedestal, I expect there to be some level of craftsmanship that I haven't found in some of these older cars yet. Let me ask a question there because I know that this is one, while maybe slightly feels like a hot take, a lot of people have said this before. A lot of people have called out and I have a lot of journalists friends who I won't mention who've called this out and then been uninvited to drive any future Ferrari afterwards, right? But to me, because I own a bunch of German cars, so I was born and bred on German level engineering, which is like usually over complicated and almost like too good. But with a Ferrari, I feel like what's important for the Ferrari is sort of in reverse from what's important to a German car. Like for example, I'm just going to say this and I think the most important part of a Ferrari is the sound, which is like why I was happy when you chose the engine for the, for your F40, because I'm like, okay, it's still going to have that sound. Absolutely. My 360 is not fast compared to my other cars. My 911 right here would destroy my Ferrari, right? A lot of my other cars, a lot of my Audi's would destroy my Ferrari. My van might be faster than the Ferrari, but nothing sounds cool. Like there is a, there is, and like I hate to be this because I know that this is so, this is like so cliche and romantic to talk about the Pestione and all of that. But like to me, like there's just something about the way the Ferrari sounds. There's something about the way it looks, right? And I don't actually like modern Ferraris, but we're now in a world where like there's so many super cars and there's just certain cars that like don't do it for me. I know McLaren is a fantastic vehicle, but like visually it doesn't speak to me. Sure. The way a 355 does, right? Like I think the 355 is a beautiful car. It probably has a lot to do with my age, but I love how my 360 looks. I love how a Skud looks. I mean, the F40 is such an amazing car. My son, he just turned six and for his birthday, he asked for a Franklin Mint F40 that he saw in a thrift store, right? And like this is a toy that came out in 1989 and was, I remember as a kid and like he, it's not even a toy, it's a collectible. And it's like, what is it that this six year old living today sees an F40 and is still like, this is perfect. And he loves it. It's his like favorite toy now, especially because all the things open up in the, you know, you can like, yeah, there's actually like carpet on the floor, which is kind of cool, like of the model is really nicely done. But it's like, what is it about the, the visual of a Ferrari that just speaks to people? And I think that that is always going to be the argument from the other side, because like, yeah, I got underneath the 360 the other day while they were dealing with the air conditioning stuff. And it's like, it feels really rudimentary underneath. There's a lot of stuff that you're like, oh, like that's like, that looks not as well crafted as on my Volkswagen, which is crazy to think about because my Volkswagen was a fraction of the price when that sure came out. But I don't, I think to her point, and I want you to kind of either back me up or argue with me on this, is that like, that's just not what the ownership of a Ferrari is about. But I get, but what you're saying is for the pedestal it's on, it should be. Sure, Victoria, do you want to chime in on that? Before he goes, he is, he is just chomping at the bit. I think we're forgetting something. And again, it's kind of cliche and Brian mentioned it, is the passion behind it. And that's why I chose to, you know, to put all of my heart and all of my energy into becoming or, you know, trying to become an expert in the mark, or as a technician, is because there's that passion in that poise and engineering that dates back to, you know, the late alpha days. And Ferrari wasn't making cars because they were trying to be the best, they were just trying to, or sorry, not because they weren't trying to be the best, it was because they weren't trying to be perfect, they were trying to evolve and trying to grow. So they would cast engine blocks without assigned chassis numbers, just because they wanted to see what worked and what didn't, they didn't have, you know, this elaborate plan to grow and evolve and be perfect. They were just actually getting out there and doing it. And so I think that says a lot to, I mean, how many of us don't pursue our passions because we're too scared or we're afraid of looking stupid. I don't think they've ever been afraid of looking stupid. I think them being able to take that step and take that leap, that speaks to that passion of the mark. And I think that's why I love it is because they're not ashamed to be what they are. Okay, I can respect that. I want to also like... I'm hearing you say, I can agree to disagree. Because I do have some points that I think are important for me to also put out there that are in the same vein. First and foremost, I want to apologize that if this podcast and being associated with the things that I have to say about this stuff gets you blacklisted for the rest of your career, my bad. That's going to suck. But okay, so first of all, I think a lot of people are going to misconstrue my criticisms about Ferraris as some sort of disdain or... Well, especially coming from a big Ferrari guy because you're now a big Ferrari guy. Yeah, there's no disdain for the brand. I really think it's important to be critical of the things that I enjoy across the board. And so I have a lot of respect for Ferrari. And one of the things that I like most about the cars that I have or the pieces of the cars that I have is the fact that these cars exist because Ferrari needed to fund their racing program. They don't exist for any other reason. This is like, hey, we got to sell some cars so we can go racing. And I think that is as cool as it gets. And so I use that as what I think is an admitted justification for why I'm okay with the fact that if I get underneath an F40 and look at it analytically, it's not well-built. It's just not. That doesn't take away from the car. That doesn't mean that I think that I am better. If I say that in an episode, I get comments that say, who are you to think that you can say that? Or when I say, oh, I'm going to make my F40 an improvement over the original. And they'll say, who do you think you are to think you can improve upon that car? And it's like, I'm speaking objectively. Like if you find the romance of what that car is to be the most important part of it, awesome. I think that the way that it looks and the way that it sounds are the two most appealing parts of that car. I own my 308 because I think it's one of the most beautiful cars ever made. Even though it's like this bottom tier Ferrari, I would put it in the top three prettiest Ferraris I put it in the top 10 most beautiful cars ever made to me. I think it's gorgeous because from that belt line up, it is an F40. And from the belt line down, you can see its roots as, I mean, it is direct lineage 308 to 88 F40. They are three steps of the exact same platform. I love the way that car looks. And I saw one, I don't know, at this point, 15 years ago, when my stepdad was like, Hey, I think I might, I'm kind of, you know, get into this like retirement concept. I kind of want a cool car. I'm going to buy a 308 and they were like 20, 25,000 bucks. And that got me thinking, man, I was in college, what if I could pull together $25,000 and have a Ferrari? This would be sick. I could not pull together $25,000 at the time. But that planted that seed and I knew I wanted that car. And then five years ago, I realized, if I sell what I have, I could get one and I wanted one. And I love that car. Let's talk about the sound then. If we're talking about Ferrari sound, the 308 ain't it. It does not make the sound that people think that when I would say like the average, and that sounds critical, but like the average car enthusiasts, when you think about a Ferrari V8, they're going to think of that 355 and later sound, that snappy, flat, plain sound that fast revving. Yeah. The 308 does not sound that way. Not any variant of it. Two valve, four valve, none of it. It has a pretty and respectable sound. But I don't think that it's the sound from that car is worth writing home about. It is nice to hear behind you. It has a very pretty induction noise. It sounds like a classic overhead valve V8. Do you think the K is a better sounding engine? No, I didn't pick the K for itself. But that's not the car that defines the mark. That's not the car that people think of when they think of a Ferrari. For a lot of people only because of Magnum PI, I would say that it is. Like it's probably one of the most famous and like widely acknowledged and recognized. You heard it here first. The 308 is the most famous and widely recognized Ferrari. I gotta say though, like he does make a strong argument that Magnum PI was so influential. No, totally. And like, I mean. But also, so was Ferris Bueller's day off. But that also makes that car one of the most recognizable. There are things that make these cars recognizable. And again, I'm not saying the 308 is the best of anything at all, nor should it be representative of the mark whatsoever. I'm explaining, I when so I get a lot of criticisms by people saying, how could you take the soul out of that car? You can only imagine like just I want to pause on this for a second. How much real hate have you got? Because I do think that there is a cult like level of Ferrari owners who feel that you should never change it. I think we have one sitting at the table. No, hey, we can come back to this. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But like you do, I think like I've definitely have heard a lot of people sort of like, I can't believe you're doing this or it's no longer a Ferrari or whatever. I think that there's does that like change the way you think about it? Or no, no, no, no, actually fuel you a little bit. I don't it doesn't fuel me like I don't care. I I love to argue clearly. Here we are. And so like I love getting in the YouTube comments and like, you know, if somebody is what I would say like, brash to me, I take that as the liberty, I'm going to be brash back to you. Like if you're going to open that door, I'll give it back to you. I think that's fun. And I get criticisms for doing that too, but it's okay. This is a car community. We're going to do this. But it doesn't like how much real hate do I get for it? Not a ton. Like not in terms of anything outside of like negative YouTube or Instagram comments, like people that go beyond that is very rare. Every once in a while, I'll get like an email or like a, you know, something weird where it's like, Oh, you're, you're kind of crazy. Yeah, you probably haven't been on f chat lately, but sure. Can I ask you a question? You can. With your builds, what, what's your goal with not, not your Ferraris, but with every car that you've worked on as a human being, as a craftsman, what's your goal when you work on a car? I would say that there are two. One is to make whatever I think is like the most bitching thing possible at the time. And then two would be to like further my crafting it better at what I do. Okay. Then plain and simple. I think that's amazing. That's commendable. Truly. And so if you're checking your boxes and you're doing your thing and you're happy at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what any of us think or say. But again, I'm not concerned with that. Right. But I'm just saying from my end, it doesn't matter if you chopped up a Ferrari. I'm not mad at you for doing that. I don't think that it's blasphemous. I think that you should be able to do whatever you want to do with your car. Because it's a 308. Because it's a 308. If it was a F40 or an Enzo, how would you feel? I think if it was something that had a lot of value and a lot of significance, then it would be painful to see. This roadside storytime interruption is brought to you by my good friends at FCP Euro. A few years back, I went to Germany and I bought my dream car, a 1994 Audi RS2. I just love this thing. It's great. It's fast built by Porsche, but it's also high mileage. And when I got it back to the US, I started to notice it was smoking a bit. And I thought, oh man, it's going to have to be like a full engine rebuild. But FCP sent me some liquid molly motor oil saver. And I'll admit when I first got it, I thought, what kind of a lickser is this? Like, is this really going to work? But I figured, hey, what the hell? Might as well throw it in. They say put it in, drive it for 500 miles. And guess what? At the end of those 500 miles, sure enough, the RS2 was like barely smoking. When I say barely smoking, meaning I could live with it just a little bit here and there. It really cut down on it all. And now I'm 5000 miles since that time. And the RS2 barely smokes at all. I recommend it. And I've also put it into a bunch of my other vehicles, because let's be honest, you guys know most of my cars, they smoke. So this is sort of a great product for me. I also use a bunch of other liquid molly stuff. And you can find all of that at fcpuro.com, as well as a bunch of other Euro parts. As I mentioned before, if it wasn't for FCP Euro, most of my cars would probably not be on the road. So thanks, guys. All right. So let me ask you a question. Do you feel like the actual value of a Ferrari is directly related to how cool it is? And I ask you that in like a two part one to like just Ferrari enthusiasts in general, and then also like to your own likings. Because the next question that's coming is I think what all of our favorite Ferraris are. And I will tell you that price is not connected to mine. But like for you, do you feel like the actual value is that driver? I think this is probably the best example I can give you a 250 Lusso, a 250 short wheelbase. Short wheelbases are 10 to 12 million. Lusso's are one, maybe a really, really nice one's 2 million. Underneath, it's the same car. Which one do you like better? I would rather have the Lusso. But why? Because the experience, maybe people are going to come after me. It's close enough. You can use it, you can thrash it. And granted, obviously it's still a million dollar car, but it's not a 10 million dollar car. So I wouldn't feel like I was harming my investment if I was driving around a Lusso consistently. Because that's what I plan of all the cars that I have. And again, I'm just getting started. I just bought my first Ferrari. I don't have any other cool cars. By the way, you said this before, I'm just going to hit you with it now. You realize how crazy it is to say that you just bought your first cool car and your first cool car is probably in the top 10 list of coolest cool cars ever. Because even if the Testerosa may not be at the top of the list for everybody, I would say at least for my generation, there's nothing cooler than a Testerosa. The Testerosa was just such a cool vehicle. It's pretty iconic. It is extremely iconic. For me, that and the Kuntas are those genre-creating... They kind of define to the era. Vehicles. They are the archetypes of a modern supercar, right? Where the previous cars lived in this weird sports car world. Those cars were, this is what a supercar is supposed to be. But I mean, and maybe to kind of bounce off to the Lusso versus the short wheelbase, the Testerosa versus the 512TR. 512TRs are half a million dollars. And obviously, there are some amplifications made and some body changes as well. But I would rather have the Testerosa. The experience is close enough for less money. I'd rather take that, whatever the gap is there and put it toward another cool car instead of having all of that locked up in one car. I 100% agree. So, okay, what are your three favorite Ferraris? Like, what do you think? Of all time. Of all time. 500 TRCs. Incredible race cars. I would say 250 Lusso. And just because I own it and I have just a gross emotional connection to it now, the Testerosa. You? What are yours? I mean, I guess. I mean, you already said the 308 is on that list. Yeah, I mean, I would say, like, obviously, I love the 308. If we exclude it since I have it. I mean, like F40, I mean, that's an obvious one. Like, that's the number one. I would say a 550 GT1, like a pro drive car, that would be up there for me. That's a super cool car. That's like in the type of thing that I like. And I think they're super bitching. Um, and I guess because of, like I said, the F40 and 308 lineage, like the 288, that's the other, that's the other, like, really good looking one to me. I'm not, I'm not into the vintage cars. They don't, I mean, like, I respect them. I think they're really cool. They don't do a ton for me. Like, that's not something that I'm ever going to be, like, if I had all the money in the world that wouldn't be on the list of things like I felt like I needed to spend money on. Um, yeah, I don't know. But again, like back to our initial point, I'm not a Ferrari guy. Yeah. So it's, it, this isn't like, this isn't a list of cars that I feel like I need to own or that I would be chasing. If I had a million dollars tomorrow to spend on a project, I tell you, I would be buying, like my, my halo car is a BMW M1. And one of my favorite kind of aspects of that is, is that they're quite rare. They're pretty expensive. They're not crazy, you know, depending on what you find, five to $800,000 for a road car. If I could get my hands on one, I would not hesitate whatsoever to cut it up. I would turn it into a pro car. I would, I would, I would, I would chop the fiberglass body right up. No hesitation. Like I'd want to make it what I like. Like, that's what the car is there for for me is like, Hey, that's, that's this one. I, like I got my hands on it. It exists for me to do what I like. Have you always been that way? I think so. I mean, I think if we go back on my list of projects, I mean, even like the first one. Oh no, I mean, like when you were a little kid. No, because I mean, I wasn't even into cars until I was like 15 and, and realized I was going to get a driver's license soon. And then I was like, Oh, Honda Civics are sick. Let me ask you a question. Cause I just had this thought the other day, when you got Legos as a kid, did you follow the instructions and build what the kit was? Or did you make your own thing? So I use in like every interview that I have done, I, there's a few different analogies that I use. And one of them is always about Legos as it relates to. Clearly I don't listen to enough interviews. You don't need to. But the one, the Lego one relates to how I view cars and what I find interesting about them. Now my analogy is a little bit different, but I say when I got Legos as a kid, or even now, I'll build what it was that it was supposed to be. You know, I like following the instructions and making the thing. Once I built it, I didn't, I didn't build it to play with the finished toy. The whole point of it was, was the build process. And once it's done, it gets disassembled and then becomes something else. And then it's, and then you go through and now you have all these blocks and bricks to play with. It was never about the finished product. Do I like driving my cars? Absolutely. That's like, that is a very big part of this hobby. If I had to choose between this fantasy garage where every car I could ever dream of was in it, done exactly the way that I want. Down to the details, the mods, the everything. And I never had to turn a wrench or a bolt and I could drive any of them at any time. Or I had a garage where I could build anything I want, but I could never drive it. I would pick the latter like no question. I don't like, I don't want to say I don't care about driving cars because I do, but to me, I, I like to make things. This is a, cars are a creative outlet for me. And, and I don't want to say nothing more, but like that is the point for me. And so I think that is part of my focus when I do harp on what some of these Ferraris look like underneath. I take pride in doing the best that I can. And so when you say, what, what, what's the point of this for you? And I say, well, I want to make something really cool. And I want to, I want to push my craft. Now, if I look at Ferrari, I had hoped that somebody there had the same idea of like, I want to push our craft. I want to get better and better. Now there are economies of scale and there's 40 years between me and when my car was built and I get to stand on the shoulders of giants that allow me to know what I know. I'm not independently good at what I do. I have learned from a lot of people. But if me as a guy in the garage, because that's all I am, if I can, if I can make something well, and I can, I can put effort and energy into making it as good as I can, I want to hold other people to the same standard. So it's interesting because I feel like you and I are very similar in that way, right? Like when handed something like a car, you and I both look at it as like a blank canvas, right? Or for the purpose, I'll say in Latin, right? Tablo Rosa, where you look at the car as the finished art, like you're like, Oh, it's already perfect. And me and him are like, Oh, we should paint this white get started, right? Because I too, like you just enjoy the process of it, right? I have this one project car that I've never told anyone about. So I'll lay it out right now. I have this one project car that I plan to take 10 to 15 years to build because it's just this thing I want to do. Everything about the Audi. No, this is, I have a E-Type. And which is the car that since we're on the Ferrari conversation, Enzo said is the most beautiful car for me, right? My father had an E-Type. I found an E-Type. It's actually a crazy story. It was in the background of an ad for low rider parts and it was under a bunch of moving blankets. And I just recognized the silhouette. And I asked, Hey, is the car in the background for sale? And he said, Oh, I'm about to cut it up to take the rear suspension out. I'll sell to you for what the rear suspension is worth. So I got it at a killer deal. But I want to build this thing like you. Like it's probably not, it probably will not have a Jaguar engine in it. Like it'll be a complete like abomination to people who like Jaguars. But it's this project that I don't even know if I really ever care to drive it. Like I just have this dream of like, this is the car that I want sitting, you know, up on blocks for the next 10 years, I get to work on every day. Like I really enjoy that part of it. Like, and I enjoy the paper build, I enjoy all those pieces. And I feel like you're similar. But for you, you really enjoy them like as intended, right? Yes. Yeah. I mean, and like I said, I think, yeah, if you want to cut it up, cut it up. So let's talk about that. What like, let's just say like the game we have to play is like, you have to build a car and mod it. Right? Like you have to be a Ferrari. It has to be. Yeah. Because otherwise we're going to crush a ton of cars you love. Right. So like, it's like bullet to the head kind of game, except instead, it's like all these priceless vintage cars like about to get crushed or you have to build a modified Ferrari. What does it look like? What does it look like? Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, like, like, like, like, like walk us through the build real quick. And it has to be, it can't have a what is it? What is your Ferrari hot rod and don't like, okay, so I wanted to jump in a second ago and say like, you know, you agree that some Ferraris, it's okay to do do this to them to hot rod them to to bastardize them. I would argue it's okay to do it to any of them. Like nothing. I genuinely like, I don't want to subscribe to the idea that anything is so sacred that we don't do that. Now, that's not to say that there are cars that I would own that I would not modify. Because sometimes there is value ascribed to like special things. But as a whole, like, I want to use the F 40 as an example. There are a lot of them. There's 1300 and some out of them. That's a pretty big production run for a car that's worth at this point, three or four million dollars. It is for many people the number one car period. Like if we go to cars and coffee, I bet 50% of people there would say F 40 is that is my number one. Yeah. If I had the money to acquire an authentic original car, and then cut it up, I would do it. And all I would have kept from it are the parts that I currently have. I only want the body from it. And I would have saved this much chassis with a stamping on it so that I could say it began as a real one. And I have the title for it just to cement authenticity. But beyond that, I do not care about any of the rest of that car. It has no value to me. I think Victoria is disassociating herself from the situation. I think we just live in different worlds and that's okay. I want to invite you over to this world. I want to complain the, come play in the sandbox. What would you do if you had to mess with one? What would you do? I haven't spent any time thinking about this ever. This has never been a, oh, what would you do? I've actually spent zero amount of time doing this. This could be the moment where it's... So if I'm going to put this out in the world, it needs more thought. I can't just, I have to gate keep it. Or I have to do it behind the scenes and then unveil it to the public. So let's flip this back to Mike. You have to do a perfect nut and bolt restoration. What car would you do it to? And you can't modify anything. You have to just enjoy the car for how it was originally intended. What car would that be if you had to build it? If I could acquire... It doesn't have to be a Ferrari because I know that Ferrari isn't your thing. Maybe it's a BMW or something. If I could acquire an M1 Pro car, one of the actual Pro cars used in the Pro car series, I would not have a desire to modify it because part of what makes it special to me is that it is a factory race car. Each one of them was driven by a Formula 1 driver. If I could get my hands on one of those cars, I would have an interest in... I would really enjoy the process of going through and trying to make it perfect as it was. I wouldn't want to like retrofit, modify. I'd want to make it perfect. So like, I can understand the appeal, but that appeal gets lost on me when it becomes just one of the average normal cars. Have you driven one of those? Yes. And it is way better than my Ferrari. But my point here is you have that experience. You have that connection. You had that time to say, this is perfect as it is. And there's probably something about it that's not perfect. I want to make sure I clarify. But you're overlooking that. I have not driven a Pro car. Oh, you haven't. No, I've driven an M1, but I've not driven a Pro car. I've had the privilege of driving hundreds of millions of dollars worth of Ferraris. Yes. Those experiences are part of what defines my perspective. So I would love to come back to this conversation and hear you after you've driven an M1 Pro car or even a vintage for driving a Cal Spider or a 500 TRC. But I do not care how the M1 Pro car drives. That has an absolutely no bearing whatsoever on my interest in the car or preserving it. And I think this is really interesting because I think that I really enjoy modifying cars, but I'm often one to admit that by modifying them, I ruin them. Right? Like I think that both things can be true. I think you can enjoy modifying a car and making it your own. And you can also realize that by modifying it, you've ruined it. I mean, Vinny's 360 is a perfect example. He destroyed that car. He destroyed it. It was good. But it's sick. It looks cool. And he's made it his own. And it's like Oslo Blue. But also too, I work in the world where everything's about maintaining value because these things have such a high price tag. But does that disappoint you at all when like, so like when I talk to people about cars of value and the value of cars and don't get me wrong, there is purpose behind preserving some value in cars. I have not lost money on a single car in my life so far across the board. Haven't done it yet. I will lose money when I go to sell my Blue F 350 outside because it's just a stock, normal, newest truck. So I get the idea of preserving some level of value or being smart about what you're doing. Cars don't always have to be a bad financial decision. However, I really don't like the idea of basing decisions on, oh, we have to preserve this car, the value of it. What have you? Can I jump in here for a second? Because this is something that I actually really appreciate. Like, have you been to Goodwood Festival Speed? Yeah. No, I've been to the revival. Okay. So revival also. I mean, actually revival almost better because like, they're really going after it on the revival. And I love watching members meeting. I love watching revival because that's how the cars were intended. Yeah. I'm like, I do see like, there's the value there. And I think that, and I want to make sure that like, we don't conflate that because this is definitely, I feel bad Victoria is like, I'm here as the purest defending an entire thing that I don't think she entirely stands behind. But I think that there's also a huge split in that community. Because you have the people who only look at it as investment. I think you have an entirely new group of people who've entered the automotive world that treat cars like stocks and bonds, right? Like they're just buying them because it's capital gains sort of gray area, right? But then you have people who buy these cars and they wheel them door to door at things like the Goodwood Revival and you're like, that is one of the coolest things I've ever seen. Because that car is worth more money than I've ever made in my life. And you are putting it off and you're having a good time doing it. And like, there's something really cool about seeing that get, you know, that that happened. And I think that the motorsport side of it is where like, I fully understand the purest thing. Like that car would be, it would be less cool to watch someone wheel that car with like a modern brake system or, or fuel injection. It is cool because it is as originally intended from that time. I think that there's rooms. Sorry, just to bring you in. So you had 350 pretty much. So yeah, you can either work it in or you can leave it be. I don't remember what my point there was. Yeah, I'm sorry. Let's let Victoria talk about this. I think we're just like I said before, I think we're just from two different worlds. We're not, you know, you're talking about cutting up something from the 80s. I'm talking about preserving something from the 50s and the 60s. And there aren't that many of them left. But there's also so much history and provenance. And these cars were an integral part of the evolution of the mark and not just Ferrari of every of Bugatti of, of Talbot's of, you know, we can go on and on with a bunch of different marks. It's not just Ferrari. And so my industry, I'm just going to separate it for a second and put it put myself in the restoration category. There is an entire industry that's dedicated to preserving and to not tearing these things up because they serve as kinetic art. And there you have a couple of different types of collectors. Some of, some of them, you know, are seen as just garage queens and it's kinetic art. Like you said, it's an investment. Other people drive the wheels off of them. And they got both sides. I think they're meant to be used. I think YOLO, you know, and it's going to have to be serviced either way. So you may as well enjoy it. Yeah. By the way, I do want to point out that you drove your Ferrari here and he drove his Ford here. I was going to make a joke when we started, like when, when he said, oh, your car is cool. Your car is cool in mind too, because I could not drive it here. So like, but that's the point. I mean, and that's why I'm kind of, I don't know, maybe on the edge in my own sort of niche is I stand behind the cars actually being used. And it's really disappointing to see cars come into the shop and, you know, looking back and seeing that five years ago, only 300 miles have been put on or if that. So I, I want to take my, my car to, I don't know if I already said this or not, you know, I want it to be high mileage. I want to show people that you can use and drive your cars. You don't need to be afraid of them. And that's what they're meant for. It does help that you know how to fix them. Absolutely. Yeah. The pocketbook too. So we've talked about Ferraris for an hour and I didn't think we'd actually talked about them for that long. Definitely probably outside of the normal conversation that this pod used to. But what other stuff are you into outside of Ferraris? Or do you feel like that your world is just so in that space? It's pretty dense. It's, it's, it's pretty dense. But I think that's kind of the point I really dove in because I wanted to become the best of the best at one thing. And I'm really grateful to have learned all that I've learned. And you know, I'm, that's kind of the goal is to always keep on learning, right? But I'm excited to see how that grows and evolves. So like, what are your thoughts on Porsches? I think they're awesome. But I think there are so many made that that's what I would mod. I wouldn't waste my time figuring out what Ferrari I want to mod. I get a Porsche and I'd mod that. This is the best thing I've ever heard right now. I'm, I'm like, this is great. Keep going, please. See, I've spent this whole time criticizing Ferrari, but like people that really know me, there's like our friend Chris Cley, well, he made stickers that have my face on them. And it says, ask me why your Porsche is stupid. And like, there's this whole thing where everybody says Mike hates 911s. And I don't, I have a huge amount of reverence for the 911 and Porsche. But you're pointing out things that I think the 911 excluding Brian needs to hear. There are so many of them. Like they're not that rare. I think they're amazing cars. And they are special by virtue of like what, how unique they are. I think 911 owners wish their cars were more rare because you can say- Are you saying you think 911 owners wish their cars were Ferraris? Yeah, no, I do. No, I wish they had, I think that 911 owners wish their cars had the rare element and the hard to find, the hard to get aspect that they do, because people will get into specs. Like, oh, well, mine is only one of 31 that has this color interior, this exterior, and the optional ashtray delete. You're like, I don't know why that matters. It's just a 964, right? And it's like, mine's somewhat rare. And I cut it up and modified it and changed everything on it. And I don't care because it suits me. And I've had, I mean, I have had like very aggressive emails attacking me on what I've done to this car. And especially like in the past year or two, when like, Nikai-san kind of got like dragged through the mud because he glued a tow hook on as like, it was, they did it as a joke, but it didn't land like as to why he did it. Sure. Mine's not like that. Mine's well connected to the chassis. It's actually a real race hook because that was what it is. But I also understand what's happened to the RWB community. And I wasn't ever part of that community. I like this car because, and I built this car because it was this cool thing in Japan before it ever came here in the States, right? But for me, I don't care what anyone thinks about my car because I have no plans on selling it. It has the value has 10 X since I bought it, which is insane. Like, nothing else I've ever owned has done that. And I always tell people like, if it's for sale, come check on me because it means I probably have to pay for a medical procedure. Like, because it's just my car. I just love it. I love everything about it. I am a big fan of 911s because I was a Volkswagen guy and they kind of just train you like VW Audi and then you eventually own a 911. I feel that no other car turns in like it. I've the glass house like how you there's just so many things that I think are great about 911s, but I also don't think that they're precious. And like, and I also don't think that I think this is like where the 911 issue is like, I also don't think that they are like some weird spiritual thing that separates you from all of the cars because I've also had great experiences in non 911s. Like there are things that my Ferrari does way better. Sure. But I think that's also kind of like when you start modding, where do you stop? And we don't have to keep talking about Ferraris. I know we've talked about them for a long time now. We can talk about cupcakes if you want. Just to make it fair, technically, my car, the Testerosa is a high production car. They made over 7,000 of them. That's kind of a lot. I didn't know that. But the reason I'm not doing anything to it for a couple reasons is one, where do you stop? So I upgrade the exhaust. Well, then what? You don't stop. This is the drug. Exactly. Yeah. By the way, we right here, this right here, this is like drug dealers who are like, here, take the first hit. I was trying to interrupt the moment ago. I was going to say this could be the moment where it's like, Hey, why don't you come try some drugs? But also with this car, even though they made over just over 7,000 of them, the cool thing about it is it's basically an F1 motor in it. It's the 312 F1 motor. It was designed by this guy named Forgy Ari, who was like the pioneer engineer at Ferrari for like the 60s and 70s. And the same motor four valves per cylinder, except the cams were gear driven. It wasn't belt driven. Dominated. The only reason they stopped using the flat 12 was because they had, what do you call it, changes in regulation, regulation changes in Formula One. This is basically that engine. They swapped the gears out to make it a little bit quieter for belts. And we've got four valves per cylinder and sounds sweet. It does sound sweet. And it's just under 400 horse. Obviously, that doesn't compete with anything that's coming out today. But for 87, I mean, that was Ferrari's flagship car. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to start because it's got that cool history with the engine. And I just don't know where I would stop. That's actually, I don't think I've ever heard someone so succinctly put that. And I actually do think that's one of the biggest problems of modifying cars is like, where do you stop? Like once you start getting into it, and you're definitely, you've definitely gone down this path, but I built an Audi Coupe Quattro that's pretty much useless because I scope creeped it into the most insane build of all time. And now it is so beyond my capability to really make sense of what I've built that it would require like engineers and a full race team to get it sorted. And I did it because at the time, especially YouTube sort of drives, it's like, just do more, keep doing crazier things. Just do wheels, just do exhaust, just do suspension. And now I've like changed the geometry on the car so much that I've gone well beyond what the Audi engineers plan, not that the guys who decided to put an engine in front of the start towers really understood how to build good cars. And by the way, I wanted to bring this up before because I think it is very important to be fans of cars and to have a healthy criticism of the people who build them. I don't think Ferrari owners do that. I don't think Ferrari is perfect. I agree with you. I think you, I just think, I think in general, there's this feeling and I think that's where your problem is. Yeah. This is, I'm gonna, this is a completely weird comparison, but a lot of people in the rally community hate, like hated Ken Block because other people said that Ken Block was the greatest rally car driver of all time. Ken never said that. He knew exactly where his place was. I never said it. None of the people who knew anything said it, but these fans who didn't know about rally said it. And I think that that ends up being kind of the Ferrari thing is you have a lot of Ferrari owners who sort of buy them because they are like a trophy piece, the greatest car ever built. And then you get people like Mike who are like, no, no, you could build a way better car. And you sort of are like, you're, you're angry at the, not the car or the people who are like part of it, like you who are building them, but you're mad about the people who sort of blindly love something that maybe don't have all that information. Right. And I think that's the point. I think they don't have I think poor Porsche guys. I don't, I think you're right. I don't think they have the full picture. It's like with new cars, I feel like a lot of people, maybe somebody likes cars, now they have money or they're at the point in their career where they have money, they want to buy a nice car, but they don't know enough to have an opinion about what's cool. They just go with, oh, this one's the most expensive. It's the fastest. It must be cool. Yeah. Can I get a little insight in your community, which I know is like this, like the fact that you can sit here and you can talk about the heritage of an engine and who built it and its importance in forming the one, like you were in a very core group of people. How does that core group see the guy who buys a Ferrari and the only mod he makes is floor mats that have a really big horse on them? Like where does that live? By the way, my Ferrari has really big floor mats because they came with it. And whenever I look at them, I'm always like, oh, this is so gross. But at the same time, I went to go look for like stock floor mats and they're like $500. I was like, oh, guess what? I'm keeping these floor mats. My car, for example, somebody had painted the wheel nuts and they also threw on AMG V12 badges and Jaguar V12 badge on the back of it. Just because they wanted people to know there was 12 cylinders, it's not a V12, it's a flat 12, but they liked it and it made them happy. They felt cool by having those on there. So that was the first thing I did was remove those. But I don't know. So if it wasn't Ferrari, what would it be for you? Oh, you're like, maybe Maserati. Oh, this is the body. Yeah. Type 57, Atlantique. No, I think they're super cool. They're not fast, but they're really cool. And the engines are gorgeous. And I don't mean that visually, I just mean from the actual technical design. Yeah. If it wasn't BMWs, what would it be for you? That's a cop-out answer, but it's like it's too broad. I mean, I have so many different cars right now where it's like, I like a lot of different things. I'm not really pigeonholed into like, I mean, BMW is my favorite, it's like my first love. But I mean, I've got old BMWs, I've got this Audi, I've got Ferraris. I am like, I'm a big Ford guy. I've got my Ford truck. I've been trying to buy your wife's Ford truck for a long time. Oh, we know. Pressure. I've got a, I recently bought a GMT 400 pickup because like, I love those. Honestly, I kind of like trucks more than I like cars, but they're harder to like really do the things that I like with, and they're like much more limited, but like, trucks are awesome. Trucks are so cool. I like, I like big stuff. I like off-road stuff. If it's got wheels, like I'm probably going to be into it. So it's tough for me to say like, oh, if I'm not a BMW guy, like what would it be? I mean, yeah, I guess, I don't know. I don't have an answer. I don't know. Because you know, I don't like BMWs. And I actually can't tell you why. There must have been like, there's some suppressed memory that'll have to go to therapy to work through. I don't know what it is, because I can respect that they're very good cars. I used to be a journalist and I used to do comparisons between like when the, you know, the RS4 came out, I couldn't argue that the E92M3 was a better car, right? Like I couldn't not, you know, I couldn't argue against it. Like it was a better car. I know that they're fantastic just drivers cars. There's something about them. I don't know if it's like a stigma around them or like the guys who had them when I was young, because like BMWs, especially like E36, when I was young, were like mostly owned by people who had more money, and I didn't. So like growing up in New York, there was kind of like, I don't like those guys, right? But I've had, I've like struggled to want to like BMWs. Like I've struggled, like I've owned a couple. I had an E46 that was really just like a drift car, a yard car, and I got rid of it pretty quickly. I had an E21 like when I was younger. I like E30s. But it's like, I want to like BMWs. I just can't do it. But even within the BMW like realm, I'm very narrowly focused. There's only like a handful of years of cars that I like. Like after the E36, I want nothing to do with them. People like, I do like, I do not understand how anybody could like an E46 over an E36, for example. Like I look at an E46 and it just does nothing for me. That car exists to give its engine to an E36. Like that's it. See, that's how I, when I look at the E36, I just don't understand why you would own one when you can own an E30. And that, that part's fair. I have my E36 mostly because I've had it for almost 20 years at this point. Like I would never buy another E36, I don't think, unless I like conjured up some weird project. My BMW enthusiasm exists solely between like realistically for the most part, like 82 to 88. And then some cars that get outside of that. But like I'm very narrowly focused and almost all of that comes down to the E28 5 series. Like that's like, that's the car, that's my car. Like my favorite car on earth outside of an 1 Pro car is a Euro E28 M5. Let's call it like an 84, 85, chrome trim, like full bright work car, non-M tech, as simple, standard as it gets. Like if I could, if I could have my choice, no power windows, cloth interior, like stripper version E28 M5 sedan, I think it's best car I've ever been. That's fair. Yeah. I mean, I like them. They look cool. I just don't know. There's like this weird, I can't, I just can't get past it. I wish I could because I think it would expand my collection of what I like because I have this like love hate relationship with Audi's, especially being an Audi, like the vintage Audi's. So like pre 95 in the United States, like there's no support for them. We don't get access to Audi tradition and there's all these problems. And it's like, I have this, even my SA8, my D2 SA8, it's like, I have all these problems with it. And I can't help but drive it and go, why do I own this? It is as complicated as owning a Ferrari, but there is no value to it. And at the end of the day, I do all this work and I made a $5,000 car into a $7,000 car, but I invested $30,000 into doing it, right? Like it's, there's almost not that return where BMW's and Mercedes there is, but which is weird because I also, I don't like high value cars. And I'm starting to realize that like as I get older, sitting to our right off camera is my 965 and my Ferrari 360. And they get driven the least out of all my cars. One, because they're in the garage and I got to move things to get out of the way, but like my rabbit, which is out front gets driven all the time. My RS2 gets driven all the time. And like the RS2 has obviously got some value to it, but I actually find that the more valuable a car is, the more I worry about it, and the less I want to drive it. Like if I hear a noise coming from my Ferrari, I start to panic because I'm like, oh, what's this going to be? We're like, I could have fired coming from under the hood and the rabbit. I'm like, oh, whatever. I got three tools in the car. I probably can fix it. So, but I guess you don't have that feeling because you work on them. Like you have such confidence working on Ferraris that maybe doesn't feel the same way. Yeah, I mean, the worst case scenario is something goes wrong and I fix it. Yeah, it's still expensive though. Yeah, I mean, time is money. You know, I'm going to admit that part does sound nice. Like when you don't modify, like I love driving my truck every day because it's, it is not modified and it's very reliable and it gets me where I need to go. It's pretty comfortable. That's not what I'm into cars for though, but like I see the appeal and so like I do want to rewind momentarily on like our discussions about restoration and like preserving these cars that are special. Like so many of them, I do think like they do need to be preserved. There's like when we go back to the 250 GTO, like would you say there's 22 of them or something? 20, 25, I think. I can't recall. 30. It doesn't even matter. Like none of those cars should get cut up. That's too rare. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. You could say that one more time. I don't have a problem with doing it. What was that? I don't think that. Victoria, you by the way are welcome back on this show whenever because I like that you take us all to town. Absolutely. This has been a blast. Like you're holding your own. This is great. I would not cut one of those cars up. You would not cut a Ferrari up. No, not one of the 250 GTO. No, I wouldn't cut a 250 GTO up. All right. We're all done then. Yeah. But that's why I asked about a Luso. So with a Luso, we're talking about a car that you said, you know, a million, two million dollars. It's a valuable car. There's 300 of them or somewhere in that neighborhood. I think one should get cut up. That means if barring how many are left or what have you, there's 299 of them left and every single one of them is in some state of preservation or pursuit of preservation. We don't need one more. Cut that thing up. Somebody should make something cool out of one. Send one my way. I'll chop it up. I want to call something out because I think that this is very subjective because you said someone should make something cool because I think we have all seen cars that get stanced. And I know you've run Stanceworks, but I know you probably have a feeling that you have ridiculous overfenders or things on cars. Yeah. No, thanks. No, thanks. Stop that. And I think that that's like this line. And look, I know the people look at my 911 and think that. I know people look at this car and they say, oh, well, that's gross. I mean, I'll say, I think that, and this will come off really conceded. So forgive me. But like, I think that if anybody modified a 250 Luso, there's a 99% chance I would think it was worse than original. I don't think that most people would be able to take it and improve it in a way that I would think was an improvement. That's funny that you said that because that was going to be my question is how would you improve it? I don't know because I haven't spent any time like thinking about it even like to the extent of, I don't even know the car well enough. Like I can, I can picture one in my head because I'm like familiar enough with it. But that's not the kind of car that I would buy and do something with because it's not, that's not my era, right? That's not my lane. That's not the type of thing that gets me excited. If somebody handed me the keys to one and said like, do your thing, I'd have to spend some time because I think it'd be really easy to just make something junky that people thought I was trying to ascribe value to because it got modified. And I strongly disagree with that. Like modifying it does not make it better. That absolutely not. That car is beautiful as it is. It is very cool. I don't think that just because you could or do modify it means that, oh, now it's more interesting or should be appreciated more in any way. The evolution of this conversation. This is the whole point. Bring the ones who all together who don't really know each other and learn something from it. This is what is getting me excited. Now one day I'm going to have a 250 Lusso and I cannot wait to bring it down to you to drive and hear whether or not with based off of that experience. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. If he gets to drive it, but then he also gets to put it on the lift and point out a bunch of things to you that he thinks should be better. And that's the conversation. Totally. Totally. We'll make that video. But I'll say this, like if I was going to modify one, for example, I think one of the first things I probably would do is I'd probably completely remove the original exhaust and headers and what have you. And I would make my own, you know, full incandell or stainless, TIG welded, make something really free flowing, something that sounded really good and make that thing sound better in my opinion than it does originally. And I know that it sounds good, but I know that it could sound better to me. And you would actually benefit the Ferrari community in that way because those exhaust systems are so expensive that somebody trying to source one would then have an opportunity to buy it. But they wouldn't want that. They'd want to keep it original. No, but I'm saying you want to remove the old one, then it becomes available to somebody that actually wants it. Oh, I see what you're saying. You're giving back to the price. She basically said that you're like a guy who rides a motorcycle without a helmet. Like you're an organ donor. Organ donor. I have made that argument about my 308 when I get a lot of flak from FChat, which I am currently banned from, by the way. Wait, what? Yeah. I got banned from FChat. I got banned from FChat, which over something you did or just the F40 project. No, it's over something I did, but I think it was used as an excuse. Am I open to rant about this? You're allowed to do whatever you want. All right. Admins of FChat. Shame on you guys. Okay, so there is a thread on FChat about my 308 that I did not start. Somebody else started it, said, check out this KSwap 308 project on YouTube. Now, as said, I love to argue. So the second I got linked to that thread, I'm in there and I'm giving everybody flak. And those that are rude to my car or to me, I will be rude back to. And if you are polite or engaging, even if you don't like it, I do not care if you do not like my car. Plenty of like, it's very valid to not like my car. That does not bother me. But if you are a dickhead about it, then I will be a dickhead back to you. And then they get up in arms and it's like, what's your problem? And it's like, it's kind of like, you started it. And like, you know, whatever. But so there's a lot of discourse in this thread where I'm not necessarily the most polite guy. And that got carried forth until the most recent thread, some guy in there, he just kept going on and on. And so I commented and I said that he was a miserable censored word. And you don't have to censor on that podcast, but it's okay. I'm not going to say what I said, but see you next Tuesday. It was, yeah. In Australia, that's okay. I got I learned from my Australian friends. And the word filter changed it to asterisks. And so I went back in there and I edited it. And I just put an asterisk on the vowel so that he knew what I called it. But it was still censored. Yeah, yeah. In appropriate, of course. And so they banned me for a day. They said, hey, you can't bypass the profanity filter. And I said, that's fair. I definitely, I did that. You broke, you broke the rules. And so, you know, after a day, I go to log in and it says your account is banned, contact admin at Ferrari chat about it to have your account reinstated. So I email him and I say, hey, the guy comment like one of the admins commented, he's like, Hey, this is why you're banned. And I said, that's really fair. And he said, the admin replied back and said, no, you don't contribute anything to our forum. We're not going to unban you. And or no, first he said, you're not allowed to promote your YouTube channel on our forum. And I said, hey, I didn't start that thread. I'm also happy to like not post links like I don't need to link on this forum. I'm not worried about that. Like I will abide by your rules. Trust me, this isn't my audience. Yeah, like no problem understood. If that's like a rule, I'm more than happy to abide by it. He says, his response was, I'm not going to unban you anyway, you don't bring anything to our forum. And I said, well, this is like one of the longest threads on this forum. I'm engaging people with it. Like I've proven that, you know, I followed through on the project. There is a lot of healthy discussion in this thread too. There are some guys that were naysayers in the beginning that have come around and said like, Hey dude, I thought you were full of it at the beginning, but like, you're out there, you're doing the thing. I wouldn't do that to my car, but like, I see you. And I was like, okay, this is cool. Because again, I get why a Ferrari forum would want nothing to do with my car. There's no question there. So Victoria, do you feel bad now for making those comments under that fake username? I'm actually, you know, one of the admins. Let's get this thing fixed up. Are you on F chat? No, full, I don't know, right hand over my heart. I've actually, I've never been on Ferrari chat. I don't have an account. I've never been on it. I have friends that will come back to me and say, and they'll read me stupid things that people have written about me, but I don't get one. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. I'm only on there for when I need to go find like information number reference or like, why is this broken? Like, like, like, for example, this is a weird 360 thing. But like when you run out of hydraulic fluid for the F1 transmission, the, the idiot light is actually the trunk light. Like, that makes no sense to me. You're cool. You're like, that makes perfect sense. I'm German. I have German cars. Like that side of it is like, wait, why would the trunk light be the light of, and like the car won't move. It won't start. So, you know, like F chats good for things like that. Although I have to say the Facebook group nowadays, I think are better, but sure. Do you have a factory manual? No. No. No. Okay, we'll work on that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe I'll just give you my car and keep it for like a few weeks. Hey, next time you have an issue, you know, just shoot, shoot, shoot me a call. I got you. So, you know what, I do want to say something because I never mentioned this before and I know people will call it out. My three favorite Ferraris because you guys talked about it. Yeah, we forgot. Challenge Strawley 360. Right. I didn't, I didn't buy one because they were a lot more money, but that's definitely there for me. The F40 just because it's such an important car. I don't fit in it. So I could never, like I would never own one, but it's just so cool to me. And then probably the, the third one for me is probably the 355 just because it looks cool. And and, and like all other than the F40, like those other two cars are like so accessible. And like the vintage ones are really cool. I just don't know what I would do with one. Call me. I just don't think, I don't think I would drive it. It just, it's like too much like value anxiety. Well, to that point though, so I think that is part of what keeps me from being interested in some of those older cars is even back to this 250 Lusso thing. Like I don't know what I would do to it. And to me, I want to do things to the car. I don't have an interest engine. So like, that's part of it. I think that's, and I've just identified this. I, to answer that question, like you could name plenty of 80s cars that I've never thought about what I would do to it. I really hope everybody that was listening at the beginning is still listening right now. Well, you have to get to the end. It's like therapy. You know, it doesn't work at first. It's not until you get to the end of it. I totally get that. I'm not as into those cars because I just, I don't know what I do to it. They kind of seem like they're, that's kind of how they're supposed to be. And like, and it's funny because I feel kind of the opposite. Like there's so much, almost comfort in knowing how it's supposed to go back together that the newer cars and having all these options and, you know, having kind of the world at your fingertips when it comes to modding, that's almost too overwhelming for me. It's almost like, again, where do you stop? Yeah. Well, you stop when either you're out of money or you find something cool. Yeah, yeah, sure. So let's talk about his F40 project real quick because I'm sure there's people who are literally listening. Yeah, I really, I, so, sure. I need the tea. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Well, because I want to ask you a question about it, but I'd love for you to just lay it out there for her, sort of like what your plan is, right? How you came about it. And like, really kind of leaning into your, just because I know you could talk about it for hours. So I just want to kind of guide this is like, that your plans to sort of better the chassis, but then use a bunch of other components that it makes sense for the car, but then also your engine choice and like all of that and why. Yeah. So as said, I have an authentic body. So just, just the panels, I do not have a chassis. I did get offered a chassis once I like, I published this thing. Somebody's like, Hey, I have an authentic chassis. Are you interested? And I said, no, I don't want that. How much does that go for these days? That one was like, they wanted a quarter million dollars for it, which I could not afford that. But also, even if I said, Oh, I'm going to figure out how to do this. Was it a VIN number chassis or a race car, like non VIN chassis? I can't remember. I think it was a VIN numbered chassis. But I didn't, I didn't fully entertain it. So I don't, I don't fully know. But I acquired a body, the front two thirds of it, everything from the rear clamshell forward is new old stock. And it's all, I guess the hood is a more recent production. The doors, the roof, and the rockers are like old production still have their like 87 89 90 tags on them and stuff. The rear clamshell is a used clamshell from a road car. And then the underbody for the rear is from a race car from a from a GT one race car that only did a couple of races. It was actually Lawrence Stroll owned the race car that that part came off of, which was kind of cool finding out where pieces came from. But anyways, I acquired a body, which for me, I mean, like f 40 is a top three car, no question, even as like a quote unquote, not Ferrari guy to me. That's that's one of the end all. And I never thought I'd get the chance to like build one or a car like one, whatever we want to call it. When I saw those panels come up, I said, I have to do this. And so like I sold several cars, and I emptied my savings account, and I went all in on it. The rest of the build is I knew for my next big project, I wanted to build a tube chassis car, I've made one in the past, and I've learned a lot since then. And I said, I want to kind of take everything I've learned and make the best one that I can. And I was going to build a Mercedes, I was going to build a 190 e tube chassis like race car. And then this stuff came up. So with that comes, okay, what's the rest of this car going to be built out of? I know that I don't have an actual f 40, like I have the skin of one, but I think you have to have the chassis to have an f 40. And I do not have that, but I don't want that. And I'd love to carry on a tangent about that if we get there later. But the rest of it, I still want it to be a Ferrari in my opinion, subjectively. So as much of the car as I feel is appropriate is is still Ferrari parts. So all of the suspension, the control arms, the uprights, everything is all pulled from a 458 challenge Evo. And then I went in 3d scan to the whole chassis of a challenge Evo so I could transpose all of the suspension geometry onto my tube chassis so that it will like actually drive and handle like that car. And then yeah, for engine, I wanted to go as far as monetarily allowable with the engine. I know that the f 40 is a v eight twin turbo. I thought for a moment about like a 488 Pista engine as kind of the final evolution of that or current evolution of that. But I said, No, it's a Ferrari. I want a v 12. I want I want it. I want that sound. And so I got very fortunate in finding what is essentially aside from the sp three, the latest and greatest v 12, you can get your hands on which is from the a 12 super fast f 140 ga. And we'll see how much more of it winds up being Ferrari. I'm piecing other bits and pieces of it together. I want it to be Ferrari in spirit. I want it to have the DNA of a Ferrari, even if it is kind of a bastard child. Because that part of it is important to me, I have a Ferrari by Vin that is no Ferrari left. And I played that game. I do not want what is to me a kit car or something that looks like an f 40, even though that is in many ways what it is. I want something that to me in my eyes is the craziest f 40 out there. And I think, again, to me, that's what I'll have. Sweet. So that's the project. How far along in the project are you? Not very far along. I have a long way to go. I have probably the front, let's call it at least the front 50% of the chassis done. I have a lot of the suspension geometry solved. I've got to run rear chassis legs. And I'm hopeful I'll get the chance to do that over the next few weeks. I keep getting pushed back and things keep getting the way, which is unfortunate, but that's pretty common with projects like this. I'm hopeful that, let's say, by the time we arrive in spring, that the car will be rolling. I have all of the major components for the car. So I mean, I have the body, I have the engine, haulingers building us a custom gearbox for the car. Hopefully we'll have that before too long. I have all of the suspension components that I need to from like the donor car. So I mean, there's still like so many parts and pieces that I still need to go. I would say I have probably two years left of building this car. Okay, go ahead. No, no, no, no, I only want your input. I was just, I was just going to say, I think the key thing of what makes this cool is obviously you can see how stoked you are about it, right? Like, that's what makes me excited about it. But two, you're not out here saying, I'm building an F40. This is an F40. Every, this is a real, real F40. You're saying, no, I took all of these pieces and I made this franken F40 and it's sick and it's exactly what I want it to be. And it's going to be an incredible time to drive. And it's like you said earlier, it's about the process. I definitely identify with that with what I do. It's about the experience and hell yeah, dude. No, I appreciate that. Okay, so here's the setup. So it's five or six years from now. Okay. You guys haven't spoken. He's finished the project. He's sold it to go work on something else. And you were running your own motorsport shop now, you know, Bruno, something. And that's your shop. And they show up. Someone, a customer shows up with this card. Do you work on it? Um, here's the thing. It's so outside of my wheelhouse. The only thing that's familiar to me is the body and I'm not a, I'm not a body person. Because even the V12 is in the modern world. So it's just not something I do. Yeah, it's, it's, I'm not going to pretend I would know what to do. I'd do what your, your guys at your Porsche shop did and say, Hey, this is just too outside of my wheelhouse. That's fair. That's respectable. But so, but to your point, she would grab a sick bag, but you know, she, I wouldn't take a hammer to it. I wouldn't destroy it. I wouldn't. Here's what I would love to see is when that car is done, I'd love to see you go drive it. Yeah, I love other people to drive my stuff. It would also be rad to get you then in my Tester Rosa. Perfect. Yeah. I think to your point of like saying, I'm, you know, I'm not saying I'm sitting here building an F40. I'm careful not to do that because I know so many other people would disagree with it. But as I said a second ago, I'd love to go on a tangent about that. And so in spending time at my favorite event of the year is that I go to with any regularity, have been lately is car week. But for me, that's going to Laguna Seca and watching the historic races. And Andrew and I started doing that. We were actually having a conversation about this former business partner that we feel like somewhat entitled to that event because we started going 14 years ago, which like at the time that hold, it was a ghost town. There were the big events you'd have pebble, you'd have the races, but like now it's such this big thing. It has really exploded in popularity and like I kind of resent it, which is very hipster of me to say, but I've never been because I'm such a hipster about it that I've always thought it was uncool. But for me, I have an allergy to money. Like anyway, the minute there's like too much money, I'm like, I don't want to go. I want to go hang out with guys with ship boxes. But anyway, for me, it was always the chance to go to the track and photograph all these cool vintage race cars. And that's what I would say my biggest source of inspiration is that those are the things that I'm into. I love race cars. They're the coolest version of any car for me. When I go, as the example I'm going to use is I think it's three dog motorsport somewhere, I think maybe in Ohio or whatever, they run a lot of the old IMSA Mustangs. So like Fox body era, crazy wide like Roush protofab Mustangs, you look at those cars, there's some of the coolest things out there to me. They are, we'll call them silhouette race cars underneath. It's a full tube chassis. The body is, I believe mostly composite on those things, probably fiberglass, maybe some of its metal doesn't really matter. This thing wears a Mustang skin and the rest of it, it's a race car. It's a through and through, just like trans and protofab, it's a race car. We look at that and we call it a Fox body Mustang. Nobody would ever sit here and argue, that's not a Fox body Mustang because it is one, but it's not. How much of that car is a Fox body Mustang in reality? And that's how you feel like the F40 is. Less than my F40 that I have. I have a real body. I have an authentic one. And if I were building a race car, if I were in the 80s and I were building an IMSA GTX class race car or a group five race car, what have you, I'd be building, ignoring the modern pieces that I'm putting into the equation. I'd be building what I'm building now. So how far do we get to depart from a car before it's not that car anymore? Now again, I don't have an authentic original F40. I would never claim that. But to me, I have an F40 in the same way that if I owned that protofab Mustang, nobody could tell me I didn't own a Mustang. Cool. What street address do you want for our to send the C and D to? Actually clip that out because that's my actual shop address. You can censor it. Just just beep it. But yeah, by all means, let's let's hear from them. I, I, this is going to be stupid because I know I'm just asking for trouble. I have tagged Ferrari on Instagram. I've said, Hey, let's hear it. Like, I know we got we already talked about this, but I do think it's just become this internet thing that people love. Because even when I got my car, people were like, Oh, you're going to get a C synthesis. It was like for putting on a factory and GT kit. Like just because it wasn't just because it didn't come away from the factory. I don't think they care, especially not about a 360. It's basically the Toyota Camry of Ferraris. So, so, and I do think the question would be like, do they care about an F40? Yes. Do I have an F40? No. So do they care about it? Well, by caring about what I have, that might kind of legitimize it. Not that they'd care about that either. But I think you've got enough press about the car, then they might care. I think that that's when it becomes a problem. And I also think that if you ever leveraged it, like if Jada toys wanted to make a model of your car, I could never care. That could never happen. I've already excluded opportunities like that from being a reality of at least these last two projects. I mean, I had my 308 at the Gran Turismo Awards and Kaz came over and even said like, this car is perfect. This is great for what we want, but we can't let it win because Ferrari would never allow it. We can't put this car in the game. And I'm sorry. Plus, I already gave you a Gran Turismo award for you. You did. I was the judge when we did. I know. I know. And I wanted it. Rusty Slamington. I wanted it so bad. And I remember standing on stage and Sung Kang even said, hey, dude, I think that your car should win. It's so cool. But the politics of this. What did win that year? That was his Fugu Z. His car won. His car won. He was like, and that was when they had the whole Gretti press push with it. Really cool build. And ever since not winning that, I've been like, I'm going to go back. I'm going to win it. And when I took the Ferrari in 22, when it got done, I like went that year, I'm going to get that Gran Turismo award and hadn't really considered the fact that that wouldn't be possible. And then they didn't do it that year. And so I've been waiting ever since. This is the first time they've done it since. And I got met with that. Oh, yeah, you're kind of an idiot. You can't win that. They're not going to let it happen. So he took just this BMW. It was a five series. Five series, E-28, E-28. That was like kind of a, it was a stance car. It was like rusty and slammed. And then he basically took it and said, what would like a DTM version of this look like, like a touring car. And to me, it was super cool because you took something that lived in one culture and kind of put it into another one. Like you took a car that was like really sort of synonymous with like the stance culture at the time, which was just like make it look cool and slam it. And like it's not really super functional. And then you put all this motorsport function in it, cut the body up, like completely changed it. And it was almost like an artistic approach of like, this is my, this is me taking this culture and putting it through like a touring car, radius fender, like extreme body modification, sort of, you know, silhouette racing kind of idea to this car. So it was like this really interesting and unique build. And that was bumped. You never really got to like do much with it after it. I did not know. But, and that's why I kind of love your 308 because like you've actually been going out, grid life, like you've actually, you went to, Five events this year. You went to World Time Attack with it too, right? Yeah. Took the car to Australia. Like you're actually going and really racing that. And what, I've been wanting to ask you this because you and I really haven't spoken that much in the past couple of years. It's like, how cool is that? Are you seeing a different side of that? Because I think early on, like you were like once the car was built, then it was like over and now you're building another car. But like this car's life has extended because you're actually really going and driving it. Is that changed the way you're building cars now? No, it hasn't changed the way I'm building cars. It's been really cool to like get to put the car through its paces and find out where I'm falling short as a fabricator because like I want to be a better fabricator engineer driver as well. Like I've got a lot to learn to drive that car at its limit. It's a very capable car and I'm not a very capable driver. I'm just capable. It's been really cool and rewarding. I will say like, I mean, it jokes on me for wanting to build a reliable Ferrari race car because it breaks every time I take it out. And that's part of the Honda part that breaks. At first it was I'm on engine number, technically engine number four. But this latest engine, which was built by David RS machine locally, has it held up the entire season and it hasn't skipped a beat. So I got the Honda kinks worked out. It's been all driveline issues. And so I'm pulling the current gearbox out of it and going to a Hollinger in this car as well to try to make it bulletproof. And I mean, like when you're racing, I don't want to say at that level, that probably makes it sound more grand than it really is. But when you have a car and you're asking as much of it as I am, and when you're pushing it to that limit and you're trying to make, you know, not only the power that we're doing, but you know, which is like 500. Yeah, right now it's 550 at the wheels out of out of a two liter, which is like conservative ish for that car. But when we compare it to like what that car had originally, it's it's a lot more. You know, it's just every aspect, every event has been an opportunity to find the weak weak links of the car. And that's rewarding, but also simultaneously frustrating. So as a whole, like really cool year, and we have some really cool stuff planned for next year. But it's it's been a it's been a challenge. And at times, I've had a lot of people say you wish you left that original motor in that car. You know, so. So Victoria, you have a 308 and you have to change the engine in it. You can't put back the stock motor or you put in it. I know a guy that knows how to put a case in there. Oh, dear. She is regretting showing up to this podcast now. She's like, I didn't think I was going to be asked any of these questions. I can't. I can't do it. No, stay, stay true. He stays true to his side. Do it. I want to come up with an answer, but I can't I can't do it right now. I need to spend more time. Yeah. If I were going to do it all again, I would go with a 2.5 TFSI DASA motor from an Audi. Of course, I respect that. I'll tell you what I like about that. And I don't like about the K and this is nothing to you. It's just my feeling on K-Swaps. I just don't think it's a good sounding engine. I think it's like the least good sounding engine Honda's made. Like I prefer everything else that they've made to that. It just sounds like it's like the LS of Honda engines. I think that's fair. It takes a lot of power, which is great. They can be reliable, although they also seem to also be really, you either get a reliable one. It's like the Shishito pepper of engines. Like you just don't know what you're going to get. Yeah. But also, I just don't love how it sounds where like the DASA engine in line five sounds and I'm obviously I'm obviously biased because I really love five cylinders, but it just sounds unique, which I think is cool. I don't think that the K sounds particularly good. I think usually they sound quite bad. I am going to be biased. I think mine sounds good, not great. I have a lot of people come up and say like, man, that car sounds really cool or like it. Thankfully, it makes a lot of turbo noise and doesn't sound as like Honda E as normal. It sounds largely like a turbo for some of the rounding car or something. But yeah, I mean, like the sound is not a part of that car that can be what I would say makes it exciting because it's not. I mean, the the gear wind of having like a straight cut gearbox sounds cool. And like just the fact that it is extremely assaulting on the senses and therefore your ears is cool. But like the engine sound itself is not worth writing home about. Yeah, that's fair. I'm going to get canceled for this. The quadrifolio motor, the Julia quadrifolio motor. Oh, what? What is what is even is in that? That's interesting. It's a twin turbo V6. I like this. It's got like 500 horse. There's some. I wasn't familiar with your game. There is kind of common ground, friends. I like that answer. I could see it. Could this be a future collab between the two of you? Let's make it happen. Let's go. She's like, please. It's Italian at least. Please stop. Please. Is that like a you because you obviously like Bugatti's, but is Italian cars sort of premium for you? And then everything else? Like, like, are there other Italian cars you like? Or is it just for? I love launches. I think they have a really cool rally history. I'd love to have a full via or a Delta into Grala. I or a Stratos. I think those are safe. They're beautiful. Now you're speaking my language. Have you driven a Lancia Delta? Yeah, I've driven one. So I would put the inter Grala over the Stratos or a Fulvia. Fulvia is really like, I think a cool looking car. But again, it starts to get in the way. It's a cool car. It's a coffee car. Yeah, I put it that way. The Delta is on bucket lists. Like, that's a car I plan on owning in the next handful of years. And then for me, and as far as launches go, I would love to build a replica of a of an 037 that is like ridiculous. When when Ron got his Delta, I got to rip it around when we got back to the States. And I realized like everything I had ever wanted a Volkswagen Golf to be it was like the steering, the way it felt like the fact that it didn't push into corners the same way, like just everything about it was right. And I was immediately was a little like regretful that I didn't buy a Delta and Grala instead of an RS2 on that trip. That being said, then he went through like two engine rebuilds and all the and he said like a bunch of problems with it. And it's cost him a ton. And now I'm pretty happy with my RS2. Sure enough. But one car that I haven't driven that I've always sort of daydreamed about is the Puget 205 rally. Yeah, I haven't. I grew up reading Max Power magazine. And that made me love any kind of like Pug like 206, like 106, like any of the GTI era, like those were just super cool. Have you guys seen the one going around? It's got a GT3 RS engine in it. It's like fluorescent orange. It's mental. I'll find I'll send it to you guys. I have a feeling that her algorithm is a lot different than ours. Probably. Yeah, I don't think anything that is a cross breed of two different cars gets anywhere. You're not wrong. Yeah. Well, I don't know what somebody was doing, putting a GT3 RS engine in this thing, but man is it the Lord's work. That's the right answer. They were doing the Lord's work, you know, so creating world peace by bringing all these countries together. Okay, so we got launcher. What else? I'm sorry. I forgot the question. Just I was saying, what other Italian cars do you like? Oh, well, no, I'm not like, you know, devoted to just Italian cars. By the way, I'm this is not a knock because until I became a magazine journalist, I would argue with you why a Volkswagen was better than any other car in the world, because I was just you when you live in that world and that's all you like. And I love Volkswagen's, I love Audi's, I love Porsches. And it wasn't until I went to go drive a bunch of other stuff that like really broadened me to go, oh, I kind of like everything. Sure. So like I can tell you why a 1976 like Chevy Caprice Donk is a really cool car because I've been around them and involved and I eventually built one about the 71. But still like, well, I think a lot of the cars that I'm obsessed with are the ones that I have the most experience working on. And so that's what really sort of fuels my interest in them is how they function and what the experience is doing that level of problem solving to find a solution. So kind of what we talked about earlier, like there are design flaws throughout, you know, Ferrari's lineage, but it's really satisfying and really challenging working on them. So that's kind of why I think I sort of stayed so obsessed in this niche is because it's constantly a struggle. Here's a question for both of you. And I already know the answer, but I just want to ask it. Design flaw, to be fixed or to be appreciated? It depends the context. Right. Because I mean, if we're talking about like shims on a kingpin, that's really annoying. And there's a reason that cars don't have kingpins anymore, you know what I mean? So like throwing it back into the restoration world, it's like, we're not going to remove that suspension. We're not going to totally throw that away and put something else in because it works better. We're going to embrace it for what it is because it's a piece of history. So in that scenario, you know, we leave it the same, but on a newer car, then, you know, maybe there's room to grow. I mean, the obvious answer would be that I would say like, oh, it should be fixed, changed. But at the same time, like, I do think that there's context here, like let's talk about these old outies and the engine hanging out the front of the car. Like that's a design flaw, but it's part of what makes them kind of cool. I agree. And it is like a line that's hard for me to cross because I've looked at like moving the engine back, running a like STI transmission, but then like at a certain point, it's like, it's not an outie to me anymore. Like it really starts to change what it is. Design flaw sitting next to us, that engine would be better placed, not hanging behind the rear wheels. You do realize that all Audrey did was look at Porsche and go, they put the engine behind the rear axle. We're going to put it in front of the front axle and just do it in reverse. Unfortunately, it works for Porsche and it never really works for Audi. I do think that that is like, I would argue until I'm blue in the face that the engine position in a 911 is not superior. Porsche sticks with it because of tradition and they have made it work exceptionally well. They made it work. But the car would be, it would perform better. It would be a Cayman. It would be a Cayman and the Cayman would wipe the floor with the 911 if they allowed it to because of its engine position. The GT4 is pretty impressive. But with that said, it is to be celebrated not to be changed. So context, context matters. Yeah, I would also argue that the rear engine gives it a different driving experience and I think that it's part of what makes this like thing where people are like, there's nothing like driving a 911. It's part of it because like it creates a different turn in. It makes the car just sort of operate different. And there's also a bit of lore of like how difficult it is to tame, especially big power ones. Like this is still a widowmaker error car. I've had this car step out on me on the fourth day of ownership. I'm like, Hey, check out how cool my car is. And I spun it backwards through an intersection at 115 miles an hour in Queens. I'm very happy that I walked away with a complete car. But and it stepped out in a way I had never experienced before. Like I was a magazine journalist, I had driven a bunch of things and it was just this, it was something to tame. And I think that's where it initially comes from. I don't think the modern cars are that way. I mean, please save me button. Sure. But yeah, but I don't know. I think I live sort of in the middle because I think there are some design flaws here. You're like, yeah, well, that's kind of the charm of the car. And you kind of have to stick with the charm of it. You can't change too much of it, you know, like I struggle like I really like Volkswagen rabbits. And for a while, I've wanted to build either a rear wheel drive one or an all wheel drive one. But then I also like, I've become more pragmatic as I've gotten older to realize that both of those will suck. And I should just buy a Miata. That's fair. And obviously cut the roof off because I can't see through it. But like, which Miata with and and and and a whatever the first one is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. But as far as fixing a design flaw, so like there's a design flaw on the 308 and maybe on other Ferraris of the era, I have no idea. But I made a mountain of work. The hardest part of that entire project was because I wanted to fix a design flaw, which is and I don't know if you're familiar, you might be the rear hub of a 308 has a hard 90 degree angle on the inside of it, which from a machining perspective becomes a stress point. And it's a known thing that if you have like big sticky tires on even a stock body 308, you can cause that to fracture and the wheel comes off the car. And that's without having a wide body, modern tires, et cetera, it's possible to break that because of how it's manufactured. There was one company for a while that made replacements that had a had a fillet there. I tried to find someone I got my car couldn't do it. And so as a result, because of this problem, I could have been like, I'm on a machine new hub, you know, what have you. Instead, I took all of the suspension off the car took control arms off and designed everything myself and made new control arms and uprights and all of it to solve in part that problem. So but solving it is like a big part of the joy you take out of working on cars, right? Like that is the thing that you enjoy, right? You know, it's a lot cooler to be like, yeah, I made my own control arms and uprights for this car to try to improve it. It would almost be silly to not fix that when you're doing an entire build. Well, I knew that I had to because with what I wanted to do with the car and go and track it even without a wide body on it, I was like, I don't want to be going through, you know, riverside at Button Willow at 100 and something miles an hour and watch my wheel safety first guys. I lost the wheel on my far did you? Yeah, story time. It was here. I had gotten flat. I had taken the wheel off because I have center locks. And humble brag and changed the tire, brought it back in, put the car back together, and then didn't have a the super big ratchet to tighten the center locks. So I just spun it tight and then forgot about it. Cars sat here for two or three weeks. And then we were doing an event at Hoonigan and someone's like, Hey, can you go grab the Ferrari? And like someone brought you like Uber back here or actually think I rode like my bike back here jumped in it and started driving away without the lug on and came around the corner right by outside my house or like on the main street came around the corner and in my and something felt like weird like I had a flat and watch the wheel come I looked in my side mirror and saw the wheel coming off and I slammed the brakes, stopped it dead in the middle of the intersection and the rim was hanging on by like the last three and a half millimeters just sitting there. And by complete luck, all the boys who worked in the shop were coming home from lunch and we're coming and I was like on the crest of a hill where I thought I was going to get hit. So I was standing there like with my hands up so people wouldn't hit the car and the boys came and they had an effort the F450 with a jack in the back. Incredible like the luck of that. Like it would have taken out the whole rear quarter like it would have just been I mean it would have been painful because it would have pretty much salvage would have been like salvage title level car because it would have just wrecked the whole back. But center locks nice. Yeah, yeah, the actual motorsport ones. You said flex and I laughed to myself because to like most people it's a flex and then to those that have them we all just know it's like I had to buy like a 600 dollar tool just to take them on off. They're just a pain. They suck it or the whole the whole rent. I have like the whole ranch and the whole thing. So okay, so this is this is probably my quam with Ferrari. Just one. This is it. We're two hours and ten minutes in and finally a quam comes. My car has monolocks as well. Monodotto as the. Yeah, I was going to say when you say monolocks I said this to wheel guys I call them monolocks like the Jason Whipple. He's like just call them center locks. I'm like that's what they call them. He's like just call them a center lock. Or people will be like knock off. They're not technically knock off. The Testerosa is center lock. It is the early cars were so 84 through 87. They did not know that. They were center lock and then they upgraded to five locks. But upgraded. They did. They did. It's a whole lot easier to fix. But anyway, in the toolkit these cars came with a toolkit and in it was the the wrench to knock off your your lug. What does that tool look like? Like when you say knock off is it like an old-fashioned style? Wrench. Yeah, like a like a spanner. So it would it's the wrench and then it comes with the hammer and you literally just hit it off. Okay. Yeah. So it is like an old-fashioned knock off. That wrench. These wheels are shared with the 288 GTOs. Right. That's a multi-million dollar car. So if you want to buy that wrench because there's only so many that exist and they also belong to a million dollar car. I tried to source one because I didn't think my toolkit came with one. Four grand just for one wrench. He's got a 3D scanner. We can cut you one tomorrow. We can even sandcast you one in brass if you want. The most amazing thing happened on Tuesday morning. I was doing a little vacuum in my frunk and lifted up my carpet and was kind of going around my spare tire a little bit and I saw SilverCAD shining out from the corner. A little piece of SilverCAD that I'd never seen before. That's a come up. And it was the spanner. The four thousand dollar spanner that I didn't think that was. I love when moments like that happen. I feel like I knew. I've had the four thousand dollars worth but I've found things like. So anyway that's my qualm. It's the same thing. It's just more expensive even if you have the cheaper car you still have to pay the price. That's your one qualm? That's the only one. That's it. That's it. Other than that she is completely at peace with all things Ferrari has done. I've really enjoyed this conversation. You obviously are like you and I are somewhat closer. You may be a little bit more to the whatever side. But I really appreciate because I have to say like it's a little eye opening for me because your love for cars comes from just a different place than mine does. Like I just like I've really been listening and going. Hmm. Okay. Kind of changes my thoughts on a lot of this because you really, really appreciate the originality of this and my wife is like this with houses. So like our house is a 1958 mid-century modern and everything in it is original and we have painstakingly returned everything to original and some of it is not good. Like we have a lighting system that is a 12 volt lighting system that runs off of relays. So every single light in the house you push the button and it turns a relay that then connects the 120. Design for. Arguably, but there's a charm to it. And like I appreciate that and I'm not that person. Right. Like I would just modify everything and make everything feel new. And I've learned to like watch my wife sort of kind of go through this process of like actually how much work it is to make everything original and to go back and like understand the original design philosophy so that when you do have to remake something you actually understand how to remake it, which is like a completely different art than for me. And I think the closest I ever got to that was I was, I got really into traditional hot rods and I got really into like you have to do it this way because like that's the way it was done in the, in like, you know, the fifties. So like that's the way you do it and you do it that way because like that's part of the cool part. Like part of the cool thing is doing it. And look, it's all about hot rotting and it's all about modifying, but you have to like there's just certain ways that was accepted in other ways that weren't. And I think that's the only thing to me that I've ever been like slightly purist in and part of the fun was like the search for it all because you can't find it. Like the interesting thing when you get really big into modifying cars, it's like, it's all race car parts at a certain point or you make it and you just machine it yourself. It's a lot harder when you're like, I'm looking for this one specific intake manifold and it hasn't been cast in 52 years and you know, I've got to find it. And like there's a fun hunt in that. And like I enjoy that with like rare car parts for like my Volkswagen and stuff, but it's, I don't know. I just want to say I enjoy your perspective of this. And I also, you have stayed true even though Mike is aggressive on his feelings and he just wants you to come and be part of his team. He wants you to start modifying cars. Well, like I said earlier, I think there's room for everybody. And just because the majority of my work has been, you know, kind of staying a purist and respecting these cars as they've come through the factory, that doesn't mean that's how I feel about every car I've ever made. And I'm curious to hear what both of your opinions would be if I were to get a car to mod, what car for somebody that's never done that, what car should I get? The car that you want to modify. I don't know that there's another, like I wouldn't pick a car to say you should modify this. Like to me, people ask me that all the time, like, oh, what car should I get? I want to do something. And it's like, that's a, and this isn't meant to sound dismissive. That's the craziest question to me because it's like, well, don't, isn't there a car that you want to modify? Isn't there something, and I mean, that open-endedly, but like the only answer is the car that you, that you want, the car that you would be like, okay, I want to tinker with this. I do think there are practical answers to that, though, because you, you have a, you are part of the 1%, which means everything you look at is possible. You're building an F40 tube frame car. There is, you're, that's even less than the 1%. Although I do want to bring up how do you feel about all of a sudden there's like four F40 projects right now on YouTube. We can go into that, but wasn't there one at SEMA this year too? There might have been like an F. There was, yes. Well, let's pin that for a second. But I think, like, obviously I'm a Volkswagen kid, but like a Mark II Volkswagen is a really fun car to modify. Why? Because a ton of people have done it before. There's a ton of stuff out there, and they can all live in what's called OEM plus, which means like 90% of what you're going to do that vehicle is take parts from later Volkswagen's and swap them in, which is like Lego kit style stuff, which is kind of nice about that because like you're still living in a world of things that were created for the road are not really super aftermarket and other than maybe some swap kit stuff you need, like you can Lego these things. And there's a lot of fun in that and you can do it with Hondas too. And Hondas are even, I think, simpler and easier. I just don't know Hondas as well. So for me, it's like Mark II, GTI, super fun car to mod. And the result is something that's really fun to drive and somewhat affordable these days, I think to like go build. And I like Volkswagen's. And then I can invite you to our really cool Volkswagen event called Trefpunks that we do once a year that Mike is going to try to build his Audi for next year. But, but like, I think that but at the same time, I like modding really weird stuff too. Like, I like the thing that like people aren't normally doing or aren't building and all my buddies joke with me, which they're like, I have 25 cars. And like, if you would sell all but five, you would have one of the coolest car collections, but instead you have a bunch of weird cars that like you have a Ferrari, you have an RS2, you have a 911, but like you talk about your quantum wagon or your vanagon or like your weird Audi 220 valve turbo Avant that like they only made 149 of and like to me, like I really like that. And I think it's cool. But at the same time, I have no problem modifying them. Like I just enjoy that. So I think like it all depends on like why you want to modify it. But I don't know, or maybe you should do something that like like a launch here or something that like you can like attach back to because I just the thing I took from this conversation is like you really seem to enjoy the history of things and how that ties into it. So and I do too, like for me, especially like in the world of Audi, because I love rally racing so much, like it's really hard for me to put a non five cylinder engine in those cars. I'll put a modern five cylinder, but because that engine was so important to rally in there, you know, into Audi and their story and rally racing. So like that's something that like I can be a little purist about. I will completely rebuild that I will if someone has an aluminum like block that they want to give me for it, I will use that as well. But I do like that the architecture is the same original intended architecture. That being said, I'd also move it back four inches in the car. Yeah, but you're kind of paying homage. But yeah, yeah, yeah, like I think I live between the two of you guys. Like there's certain things that I think are blasphemous and like you have to you do it this way because otherwise, is it still that car? Sure. Well, people I mean, why I asked was because people ask me all the time, they say, Hey, I want to get a Ferrari what Ferrari should I get? Where do I start? Yeah, so I was just curious. What do you answer to that? I mean, the first question is what's your goal with the car? Right? Do you want a driver? Are you trying to, you know, start participating in the Concord circuit? Yeah. Do you want to just do events or do you want an investment? I mean, I think that's a great set of questions. And I get probably not like all two different of a set of questions I would want to ask you if I were going to try to help you narrow down what car to modify. But ultimately, I don't know, I think coming back to like, it's a creative thing for me and like, there's a list of 1000 cars not exaggerating that like I still want to get my hands on and do things with. And I would love to see you pick something and modify it and see what you do and like have fun with it and see what it means not necessarily like to break the rules or anything, but just like, I don't know, because modification is not just such a big part of the car thing for me, it's like it is all of it to me. And it is like, as he's I'm on this end of this spectrum that we have here, like I'm way off the deep end. I'm like, it's all I do. I don't have other hobbies like this. This is it. But I'm so passionate about it. And to have a discussion with somebody that is clearly just as into cars, but into them in such a completely different way, it almost rattles me a little bit because I want to be like, hey, how could how could how how could we share an appreciation for the same like thing into completely different lanes? And I want I want everybody in the car world to enjoy the things, not the same way that I enjoy them. But like, I want to I have my YouTube channel, and I put my stuff out there, because I want other people to feel like, oh, I can go out in the garage and do something similar to whatever it may be. I don't care what you build, just go build something. And so there is room for that to be. Yeah, just this perfect restoration. But now I want to see you like, I want to see wrench on something that's like making it. It's interesting, because I follow both of you. And I enjoy both of your content in such different ways, because like, I'll see what you do. And I'll be like, wow, that's cool. I would like, I wouldn't even have thought of that, right? Or I'd sit and see something you do like, man, I wish I had the time to like engineer and develop that and go build that. But then I'll watch something that she does that is like this painstaking method to do it the way that it was originally intended to put something back together. And I'm like, I wish my ADHD wouldn't get in the way of that. I don't think that I could do what you do. Like, I wish I could be that precise with it. Because like engine building alone is something that like I wish I could do. But like, I just the attention span of the measuring like I forget I'm doing halfway through and I'm like, Oh, what did I measure? What is the own? Oh, did I put that back in? Like, I always like I second triple quadruple guess everything I do when I do engines, because anything that is that delicate and precise, I'm not good at. Pull the transmission out of a car, reduce suspension, like well, together, like, I'm key, like that's good. I like the big heavy movement pieces. The precision stuff is something that I wish I had the patience for more. I can do it, but it's it takes a lot of mental bandwidth to do it. And like, that's your like, that's that's your therapy. Yeah, that's my bread and butter. I love the doing the methodical work is really, it's just kind of like bliss for me. That's my favorite part. What's your favorite, like, thing you've done since you've gotten to really kind of dive in and work on for hours? Like, what's that project that you're like, this was cool, other than maybe working on your own car? But yeah, I mean, working on my own car, like for, you know, emotional, personal reasons has been really gratifying. But as far as a aha moment, like, this is a really cool thing that I get to put on my resume now. Just doing a full entire rebuild on a 365 GTB4 motor, and then running it on the dyno, and, you know, having it not blow up. That was pretty cool. Oh, yeah, I could imagine. And I mean, and now we're finishing up the restoration, and it's about to go back in the car. And that's the Daytona, right? Is that? Yeah. Okay, just making sure. Yeah. What is some what is a rebuild like that cost? Um, to the customer. Yeah, I mean, it depends on how extensive it is, but I'd say starting price is like, that like that just gives me anxiety, like the knowing how expensive stuff is, you know, like, it's all hot, you know, it takes, it takes time and it, it needs to be the assembling it. And if it's wrong, you're like, Oh, that just cost me that just cost. Yeah, I couldn't do it. I literally, I have this Audi motor that I know that like, I could put that engine together. And the mere concept of doing it is so stressful to me that I pass it off to Jason Whipple, because he can do it. That's my eight valve engine for my golf is at Whipple Machine Works just because I'm like, I don't want to build it. I don't, I, I don't know how you do that. I, people ask me all the time, why don't you build your own engine? If you keep having, it's like, it's just a car. It's not my lane. It's just precision stuff. It's funny, like I've just kind of been trying to have the mentality that you let the person that specializes in that one thing do that one thing. So if you're, yeah, I mean, if you need to make new pistons, we're not going to machine new pistons in house. One, we don't have the tooling, but two, let the person that they only do pistons, let them do the pistons, because they're going to do them better than we could ever. At what point in your sort of process did you sit there and go, this is the thing, like engine building is something that I like gravitated to. I got lucky. It was my first semester in school and I had no hands-on experience. I did, kind of my favorite story to tell is the professor and like the first day of my class said, okay, go up to the tool board and grab vice grips, grab this, grab that. And I didn't know what any of the stuff was. I had to, I walked up to the tool board and I had to watch the other kids grab what tools to get because I just had zero comprehension understanding of what anything was. Do you use vice grips while rebuilding Ferrari engines? Because I would love that. Yeah, in certain applications. You got to do it. You got to do it. Oh my gosh. Well, aluminum castings with steel studs, it's something that's going to break. So I was really lucky early on. I just really took toward engine rebuilding and those mechanical sorts of classes, which I wasn't growing up. I wasn't a good student. I hated math, but I think I saw or see something that's really creative about the process. And it's not just one equals two. A lot of times you really have to think outside of the box to find a solution. I mean, I think that's what I think all of us enjoy about the cars, right? It's like, it's not actually always an easy thing to solve. And I think, for him, he's like two plus two equals 5,947 square root. Like he wants to go maybe the craziest route to get there. And you know, I'm probably somewhere in the middle and you're on the other side of that of like two plus two equals 4.7 because Enzo said so. And then it's always like, and you're going to stick to that, right? Which is like a completely different way of looking at it. Okay, we've like, we're almost at the two hour and 30 mark, not that are the people who listen to the show love going long, but I want to, I want to, I want to start to land the plane, which I feel like we could talk for a few more hours because I feel like we're barely scratched the surface. We'll have you guys back. Um, this was an experiment that I've enjoyed. It's kind of fun watching this, this conversation. Very fun. And I want to iterate again. As said, I love to argue and like some of my friends and I like, we'll sit here and do this nonstop. And then other friends of mine will be like, you guys are going at each other. This sounds so toxic or whatever. And it's like, we'll sit there and be like, what are you talking about? This is great. So, so, It's not personal business. But I'll also, before you get there, I want to say I've probably been more abrasive through some of this than I think that I'm being because that's, I just, I'm excited and I like to make my points and what have you and both of you guys have been, and especially you as the newcomer to this. Like, I've known Brian for a long time. You've, I feel like we brought you out to deep water and you have been treading no problem. So this is great. Well, originally I was going to have Vinny come on, right? And I thought, Oh Vinny, like three people who own Ferraris. And I was like, I was like, you know what? I was like Vinny's kind of like non-purist light. It's like Barrow's is like non-purist extreme. I was like, that'd be a good, good combo of people to have in the room. So, hey buddy here, I want a couple of like random kind of conversations. So, or thoughts. One thing I like about all three of us is I think everyone has this feeling of like cars are not to be stored, right? And look, I realized I might sound very rich in saying that because I own 25 cars and a bunch of them never drive, but I also don't own a daily driver because I like to drive my cars. My cars break all the time and I've just gotten used to it. It's just part of my life. In the last week, I blew up the rear end of my van. It sucks. And then I just swapped it out, drove the vanagon and I just keep moving around. And because I got to this moment where I'm talking about this before, but I got to this moment where I had like a really nice daily driver and it like made me forget about my cars because it's just so easy to jump in that. So like when you told me that you actually drove like the Tester Rosa down here, I was like, this is awesome. Like I have a daily driver. Um, before this, wait, is this your only car? Um, I have a Mini Cooper. Okay. Um, but so this is the reliable one. Well, but the whole point in me getting this was to drive it. I'm going to show people that you can use and drive your cars and they're going to break and I'm going to fix them. Yeah, it's going to be great. I love this about you and I love this for you. So here's a question. Um, the three of us are in a challenge. We have to drive from Los Angeles to, uh, let's say from Los Angeles to New York and we have to stop at like two or three competition level things along the way. Hill climb, you know, circuit track, you know, something like that. No drag racing, just something kind of fun. Um, and you have to buy it. You have to bring a car that was made before 1990. Right. What do you bring it? You have to fix it yourself. Right. Like so you've got, which I think everyone here, how high performance are we going? It's, you've got to manage the enjoyment. Like it's not a real competition. There's no winner at the end because you have to enjoy it. Like part of the thing is, is like, this has to be enjoyable for you. There is no question that I'm just going back to my Euro E28 and five. Like that's, that is the end all car for me. That is my favorite car. It is relatively speaking, very attainable. Um, no question, no question. It's the best car ever made. Best car ever. Best car ever made. That's a bulls thing. I, I, I believe it and I'm ready to argue it. Yeah. I mean, religion's a powerful thing. Is it a cop out if I pick my car? No, I want to drive my car. I love it. Yeah. I, for me, it's probably a Mark Warner rabbit. Maybe not the one I currently have, because I don't know if it'll, like it took me a little to get started to get out of the driveway this morning, but you know, like I just, it just works for me and it's not competitive, but it's fun. I think I'm going to win this competition then. If hers breaks down, or if we have to, if we have to carry any passengers, then you're kind of out on that one. You get one. I have a frunk. You need to chop them up. So you're driving the E28. You're driving the Testerosa. You get there and now you have to get back to the West coast and you have to agree on a car that both of you will drive back. See, I'm agreeable on, on that kind of thing. Whatever, whatever you want to drive, I don't care. I know it's like the least fun answer, but I don't know. I feel like any answer to the question is going to be interesting. I'll drive anything that's as long as, I mean, even if you said, Oh, I want to drive like a, what is it, a Pontiac Transporter. Okay. Okay. I'll up the stakes. I'll up the stakes. You have to trade your E28 and your Testerosa for this car. Like ownership have to own it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And now you guys live with this thing. Yeah. You got to live with this thing. And, and let's not get into the equal value. Let's not make it about value. It has to be like, you both are like, okay, I feel happy with that. But my, the list of cars for me is so long. It's it's troublesome. Yeah. Whatever. Throw one out. I'll tell you if I'm in. Like 70s Land Cruiser. Perfect. Wow. I think that could be a good common ground for the two of you. Yeah. I've had, I would love to rip that thing. I've had a lot of Land Cruisers. So I'm in. Yeah. That was a lot. Spacious, comfortable. You could do some. Not comfortable to be clear. I think it's comfortable. Have you spent extended periods of time? I have not. They're not. Did you have one? So I've had, when you say 70s Land Cruiser, you mean by year or by chassis? Because there's 70 series or 1970s. Oh, I don't know them all enough to know chassis. So I was thinking 1970s would be FJ 40. FJ 40 is basically a truck body on a tractor. Like that. It is a glorified truck. Not as comfortable. Okay. Not comfortable. I've had, I've had an FJ 40. Really cool. Not very fun to like really be in outside of, it has tons of character. And so it's really cool. But like not a comfortable car. 60 series, which would be the 80s, is where they get a bit more comfortable, but you're still talking about a leaf sprung solid axle. Like they're comfortable, but not comfortable, you know? Maybe the common ground that you guys find is in trucks. I mean, I love trucks. So we've been over that. I can compromise. I don't even think there has to be compromise. If you want, if you want, if it's FJ 40 is the answer, I'm in. I'm easy. You do seem easy that way. Yeah. Not on most things. Michael's not. I'm easy going. I'm just very opinionated. I have strong opinions. But I'm like, I'm flexible on them. Like, I think as I get older, I get a little bit closer to her side. Like I was so you 10 years ago, and I guess I'm about 10 years older than you, where like everything was modified, nothing was precious. And I didn't care about like any kind of purity. I don't know if it's a bit of like the travels and like the journey of my wife in our house that has made me sort of appreciate like this is how it was originally designed. And it's kind of cool to just keep that in respect the history of it all. That's like moved that a little bit to cars. But I am started moving into a world of like, I could maybe see having like an original car. Well, like I was so not there 10 years ago, like I and I'm actually like, I just bought this vanagon. And in my head at like 996 engine transmission slammed like, you know, running 17 inch wheels like, you know, Porsche Fitment, like big breaks, this whole thing. I've been driving at stock for like a month and a half. I'm like, this is really good stock, which is like, which is upsetting for me, because I was always the like, everything needs to be like heavily modified. And every and like Vinny always jokes is like, your kink is like, the weird of the modification, like I have a VR6 and a Corolla, right? Like, that's and you know, it's like, you're even more on that level. And it's not just the YouTube thing, because part of it was like, Oh, build really crazy things for YouTube. Sure. That's what YouTube wants. But I also like that's just like the that's my fantasy when I sit there looking on marketplace, I'm like, Oh, it'd be cool to take this and put this and that like, I just enjoy the Lego pieces of it all. But I am as I'm getting older, just starting to kind of like, Oh, this is kind of just enjoy this as it was, because it is a moment gone, like those type of cars don't exist anymore. And I'm actually just appreciating like what they are. But like, when I first got into modifying cars, I had a car that was still sold in a dealership, right? Like I had a Mark III Golf while Mark threes were still available in a dealership that has really changed to where I am today. We're like, I get into a stock Mark III right now. And like, I still need it to be lowered and have wheels on it. But there's just something kind of weirdly nostalgic that I've begun to enjoy about just cars from the 80s and 90s, just stock that I never thought I was going to have 10 years ago, because I was like, modified all I mean, my Nova is a good example. Sure, it looks a certain way. But like, it's pretty modern underneath, right? Like it has, you know, it has, you know, EFI, it has like modern suspension, full new chassis, like all these things. But I wanted to look away, but I was like, it has to drive a different way. So I don't know, that's like all starting to like change. And like, it worries me. It worries me because like I, I so I listened to the two of you on this banter. And it's like, a lot of times like, why am I not agreeing with burrows right now? There are like time capsules. It takes you to a time that no longer is. And there's something to be appreciated. Obviously, things can be improved. But I do get it at times where it's if we come back one final time to this Euro M five that I don't own that I want. It's like, that's my, that's my bucket list car. And when I own one, I'm not going to say I won't modify it, but the extent of modifications would be like maybe changing out the factory springs and struts for like H&Rs and maybe, maybe wheels and tires. And that'd be it. But I'd be completely content with that car being bone stock. I don't have a, like, I don't want to change the rest of it. I wouldn't want to hot rod it. I wouldn't want to do anything else to it. Like I want an original one. I want like they're pretty rare. There's 745 of them. I want an original one. Like I want it to be stock. I'd want to keep it stock. So like I get it. I just, I hope, I hope I don't find myself in a place where I lose the desire to be doing all the like, I guess I don't want to say like modifications, but at least like the tinkering. But to me, that's what tinkering is is modifying my car. Cause I've never pursued the like, oh, I just want to put it back together all perfect. So the car that changed that for me was when I bought the Swallowtail, right, which is 1975, Volkswagen Rabbit, the first year was like a special year and they had this little cut in the rear, which made a Swallowtail. But it's kind of like a weird car because it's a lot of single year parts on it by 76 and, you know, on they changed a lot. And then by 80, it all really changed because they all became us built. And when I bought that car from a friend of mine, he's like Corey, he's like, you know, it doesn't run. He's like, you know, come get it with a trailer. I don't think you should try to drive it home. Like it barely starts. And I had already gotten an engine for it out of a, out of a 90s car that I was going to put in an ABF 16 valve. And like, I already started buying all these parts because in my head, this, I was going to build the car that I wanted to build when I was 20 years old and couldn't afford to build. So I was like revisiting my Volkswagen roots because I kind of abandoned them for years. I was like, okay, I'm going to go build this thing. And I had this like blueprint because I had this blueprint in my head since I was in my 20s. I'm going to go build this car. And it was like the middle of the pandemic and I was kind of bored. I was like, you know what, I just wanted to run under its own 1975 power before I pulled the engine. So I was like, I'm going to spend the next week or two just trying to get it to run. It's carbureted. It still runs on points, right? It's very classic. And it's actually a lot of stuff that like I didn't have much experience with because I grew up in the CIS and fuel injection kind of world. So I was like, okay, this would be kind of fun to do. Still has a mechanical fuel pump. Half of the stuff was like unobtainium, like searching for it, finding like, you know, new old stock parts and trying to put all together. And I got the point, like, man, I've now spent like a decent amount of money, like 500 bucks to basically get an engine to run that I'm going to pull out in a week. I get the thing fired up and I start driving it. And in my head, I'm like, I'm going to do this for a week. And I kind of was doing it for content. It was like, Oh, it'd be cool. First episode, Scott, oh, gets the car back and running just to show how slow it is. It still is under the same setup. Now, five years later, I have now finally decided that I want to put another engine in it. But I like, it was like, man, I kind of like actually really enjoyed trying to make all the old stuff work again in a way that I wouldn't. But at the same time, I was also building the coop where the coop was like, so crazy and so over the top that I was like, well outside of like my, my skill set, I built something that kind of became this monster. So I had this like juxtaposition of this rabbit that was just like very simple and very easy. And the thing that's been crazy about it is like, it breaks all the time and I can always fix it. I can't say that about a lot of my other cars, like if there's something so simple about it, that's like screwdriver, a vice grip, like a few little parts and like, I can get it running again. And like, I know the stuff I need to carry with me, which is like weird things, like I need a hose so I can like self prime the pump, like just weird, like so I can sit there and just suck on it and not it has these be clear. So I don't drink gasoline. Like it's like, but there's like a few things that I just carry with me. I don't fix it. I just sort of enjoy it. And it made me sort of change my mind. That being said, I'm still putting in a bigger engine, but it also changed the engine I was putting in because I was like, you know what, this car needs to be an eight valve instead of doing a 16 valve engine. And I want the engine to feel a little bit more period correct, which is something that, you know, six or seven years ago, me just, I don't think ever saw. So I don't know, it could happen to you. We could get back together in 10 years from now. He could be doing a perfect nut and bolt restoration and you could have a launchy. You have a lot of white body, you know, the white body, Lusso, you know, you never know, like it could, it could happen, you know, like things change. And that's what makes like, I think to the point you keep making, it's kind of what I love about the automotive hobby. It's like, we, there's no rules to how you can enjoy this. You can enjoy it in such different ways. And maybe the two of your algorithms will start to blend. You'll start to get fed really weird motor swaps. And you'll be like, maybe that maybe you'll see one that you like, and maybe you'll see something you're like, wow, that's so original. And I like it. So you're, where are you going after this? So like, you driving back home, like you, you're here for a few days. Going back home, I'm probably gonna grease my wheel bearings and my CV joints as my next step on the car. But I'm sure you can go to Mike's and do it at his place. Yeah. If you actually need access to a shop while you're down here, we've got a whole shop with, I think pretty, pretty well equipped. I think anything you need to do, I'll have the tools for. But yeah, I mean, next step for me, I'm driving, driving my car. I want to highlight just such a critical difference in mindset though, and kudos to you for like, oh, I'm going to do this preventative maintenance. I'm going to, I'm going to grease my wheel bearings, you know, just as to get it out of the way. I've never done that in my life. I've never, like that is not on my radar. It breaks. When it breaks, it's time to fix it. The only time I do preventative maintenance is when I decide to take an entire car apart. And I'm like, well, while I'm in here, I might as well do it, but I don't do anything. While you're in there is a bit like, I go over, like if something comes apart, I'm like, I'm replacing all of it. And then it's like, well, what is this attached to? And it's like, before I know it, the entire driveline is replaced. But in terms of actual preventative maintenance, Bravo, because that's a language I do not speak. Yeah, I'm definitely of the like, oh, that coolant line looks like it's fraying. Oh, well, what, how long it'll last? What, how long it'll last? But if I'm taking it out, I'm like, you know what would be better than that coolant line? Like a dash 22. So what it costs $400 in fittings. Yeah. So, but yeah, I know that's different. Well, it has been, it has been eyeopening to hear you talk about your purest side of things. I've enjoyed actually just listening to the two of you argue, which is not actually where I saw this episode going, but I've enjoyed it thoroughly. I'm very happy to say that I have a tester as a part of my driveway because it is for me, it was a hero car. Like as a kid, it was just such a cool thing. So I just, it's two, it does, I don't fit in it. I got to drive a 512 TR once, which was super cool, but it was painful to drive. Like I didn't really fit. I don't think my knees bend that way anymore. So you're really the, yeah. I fit in the 360, but it's like, it's tough. Like it's like, I fit, it's bigger inside than a 9-11, but the 9-11, because it's a two plus two style, I can actually move the seat back. Like with the, with the 360, I've got the seat kind of gangster leaned just so I can like fit, but it's fine. You make, you know, you make these, you got to make these sacrifices, you know, to do that. So anyway, guys, we are approaching the three hour mark, which puts us at the longest pot, I think we've done so far. So two people who had a lot to say, thank you both for coming out. Do you guys have any closing remarks? See you next time. Are you going to come back? Oh yeah. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. I know you'll come back. Thank you. Yeah, I'll be back anytime. Anyone you can argue with, you'll show up. Have me back to this, this, whatever your argument show was. The actual argument show. You mean unlike the banter show that you turned into an argument show? I did do that. No, it's good. I love the conversation. This was a blast. Thank you for having both of us on. This was a treat. I had fun. I hope I, I hope I didn't come down too hard on you, but this was, this was great. No, I mean, I think that you guys, like you were from two different perspectives. I think both of you look at each other like that you don't understand each other, which is great. Do you understand him a little bit more? Yeah. And I think he understands me a little bit. I think we both do. Absolutely. The minute that you tied the history to like why this stuff is so important, I like, it painted the picture for me that I, like I said, I attached up my wife's love for making things period correct. And I'm like, I get it. Like light bulb. Okay, cool. Like that's, that's where it all that like that part makes sense to me. Good stuff. Well, thank you again for having us. Well, thank you guys. I hope you've enjoyed this pod. And yeah, we should do more of these. I like just taking, this is like a weird like dinner party where you invite people who don't know each other and then you get into nice tense conversations over, you know, what you built your entire identity and career on. So anyway, I look forward to more of these and yeah. I grew up in New York City working on cars and alleyways on jack stands, which means I spent a lot of time on my back. As I've gotten older and bigger, I realized I need a better creeper because I've been known to bottom out a few of the cheap ones. Enter Vipers man sized lay down creeper. As expected, they've got great casters just like their stools. The fabric hammock design is super comfy and it even has a nice adjustable headrest, which is great for those undercard naps. Check them out. Viper industrial.com. That's Viper with a Y. Winter is coming, which for many of us just means snow and church van is so ready because I got some Toyo Open Country AT3s on there. This is a great off-road tire that also performs really well in the snow. It's got 3D multi-wave sipes and additional lateral grooves, which translates to giving you more traction in both wet and snowy conditions. Plus it comes with a triple peak mountain snowflake stamp, allowing you to access most chain-only roads during storms. Also, it's available in elode ratings for massive beasts like my van. As you can see, Toyo has me covered for my off-road rigs all the way to my soon-to-be-ready track-ready Audi. 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