64. How to convert visibility into sales and long-term growth | Penelope Chilvers

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reid, the podcast that covers everything about business, management, and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. What does it really take to build a premium brand without outside investment, fast growth, or shortcuts? Today on All About Business, I'm joined by Penelope Chilvers, founder of the footwear brand that bears her name. Over the past 25 years, Penelope has built a business rooted in craftsmanship, ethical production, and long-term relationships with artisans in Spain, all while staying deeply hands-on as a designer and creative leader. We'll explore what sustainable growth really looks like, the realities of slow fashion, and how to turn craft into a lasting business. Today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Penelope Chilvers. Penelope is an English footwear designer and founder of the eponymous brand Penelope Chilvers. She makes wonderful shoes and boots, and she's expanding into other lines, which we'll talk about later. She originally trained as a painter in London before moving into design work in Spain. And her business is, in a sense, a fusion of British and Spanish style. But Penelope is going to tell me more about that in a moment. So thank you for coming in today, Penelope. And I'd really like you to begin at the beginning. tell us a little bit about how this wonderful business journey of yours which started 25 years ago began hi James yes it's been um quite a journey and it's it's uh taken up most of my life actually now looking back but 25 years ago I was um I was in my first career living in Barcelona as a painter. And I studied for four years at art school in London, and then went and did an MA in Madrid in draftmanship and drawing. And then I went to live in Barcelona, married my Spanish husband, and tried very hard to make money as a painter. but I started a family very early and felt really stupid going into the art. Going into my studio and not being able to have a good day painting and coming out with something that could help us make some money just wasn't enough for me. And so I started to change my chip and think I need to be more commercial more quickly. and so I became a commercial painter restoring murals and painting furniture and then from then I started working with woodturners and designing objects in Barcelona and working with artisans and I think that was probably the beginning of my career as a footwear designer working with artisans because I really got very passionate about working with with craft, people who make things. And then I came back to London after the sad ending of my marriage with two little girls and had to kind of reinvent my career because I'd lost what I'd started in Barcelona for those 10 years that I was living there. And I was trying to work out what I could bring to London from Spain, because I feel like I'd probably done the opposite when I went to live in Spain, was taking a little bit of London with me. The interior design world and the painting skills that I'd learned in London had been so useful in Barcelona. And it's a long story, but I used to go riding in my lunch break in Spain up in the Coycerola Park. As one does in Barcelona, you have very long lunch breaks and I would go for a short hat. Sounds very civilized. Yeah. It's not like a trip to Pret. And I'd had a pair of riding boots made for me to my own design by an artisan that I'd met at a trade fair. And I used to wear these boots in London. And quite a lot of my friends said, where did you get those boots? I want some too. So I started taking commissions. You know, first it was two or three pairs and I'd go down and see my artisan and say, you know, I want those made. So had you told him exactly sort of what you wanted? Absolutely, yes. So you knew what you wanted for yourself. And then other people said, I'd like some. Yes. That was how you started. Absolutely. Yeah, I designed them. So before we go further, you said you studied as an artist and you started out as an artist. and then your sort of focus, let's say, changed gradually in a way. You went from one type of artist to another type of artist and then to design furniture and then to artisan. I think I got ever hungrier to make money. You just needed to make a living. I really needed to make a living and I got great pleasure out of trading. But you arrived in London effectively, from what you just said, Penelope, with two young children, recently separated, divorced, and so effectively on your own. Yeah, really short of money. And you had to fend for yourself. Yeah. And build a business from the ground up on your own with these two little children in tow. I mean, that's a big ask. Yeah. So how did you do that? I mean, we often couldn't make it to the end of the month. It was really tough. But there was something about what you were doing that you really loved. Because you obviously persevered. What was it that kept you going? I just, I think I'm lucky that I always think that a door will open the next, you know, something will come. And I kept trying all sorts of different things. I tried to get into the interior design world, but it was pretty much, you know, I was in my 30s. A lot of people were already established. and so I had to find something different and I kept going back to Spain to work there on any job that I could get but it was eventually these boots that took off so quickly I in my first six months I sold 100 pairs to the cross there was a absolute craze in Notting Hill Gate. The Cross is a very posh shop in Notting Hill Gate. It is, yes. And I sold kind of five pairs. They sold out in a day, 10 pairs. Then I was back on the plane down to see my artisan in Andalusia and asking him to make more. So you knew you were onto something here? I don't think I did, no, because I didn't go to business school. I was trained as an artist. I don't think I did. I never knew that I was starting a business at the time. What did you think you were doing? I just thought I was making ends meet. What I was selling, I was putting back into the business. And if I made a promise to someone that I would deliver, I would damn well deliver. And the same happened when I started trading. In my first year, I went to Paris Fashion Week with a tiny collection. I started enlarging the collection from the first style into different other styles that friends would ask me to make. They'd say, I really like that boot, but I'd love it in navy suede. Or could you do it in an ankle boot? Or could you do something else? And because I'm so creative and I love making things, of course that got my juices, my creative juices going. And I would dream up collections. And I once went to Paris. Sorry, the first time I went to Paris, I went with a collection of six boots and I planted them on the table in front of me. I didn't even have an order book. I wasn't sure whether I would take any orders. And I took orders for three days, nonstop. And when I got back on the Eurostar at the end of the trade fair, I totted up the orders and thought, my God, I think I've got a business going here. But how the hell am I going to make them? To ask a crass question, how much was the order book it was well for those days it was big i think it was probably about 30 000 pounds worth of so yeah definitely of wholesale product and um only one man making them right and he he disappeared he was um he was frightened off by this was he was absolutely terrified and he said you know you're just you've just become so greedy since you've since you've started working in London and I said it's not greed it's need it's an expensive city and um if you want this business you find a way to make them um and and did he or did you know he went off wild boar hunting and turn he didn't we didn't have mobile phones in those days he just he just disappeared off into the wilderness so that's not very helpful no no you've got to fulfill all these orders Yeah, but I was determined. And so eventually I found some school friends of his that had a small factory. You probably call it a workshop in industry standards. But they have been working for me now for 20 years. Oh, so fairly early on you found your production partner. Yeah, and we've grown together. Listening to you though, we had a jewellery designer called Kiki McDonough on our podcast a while ago. and she said that her first collection was very much aimed at friends. And her advice to people starting out was, you make something you think your friends will like and buy. And if you can do that, then you know you can then grow from there. Listening to you, it sounds like, you know, you were really close to the ground in terms of talking to people, hearing what they wanted, asking them what they would like. You know, they wanted blue suede or a different type of design. But you were very, very close to the customer. and that in a sense got you going so quickly it seems is would you say that's a lesson for someone starting you still feel i still feel that i still feel i'm very close to the customer how do you achieve that now because obviously the business has grown and you've got shops and well being the founder everybody talks to me about their feet and what they'd like and they're you know if i go to a party people normally talk to me about their feet um or the latest style that they've just seen that I'm that I've made or the color that they think is is so on trend and beautiful at the moment or and I also like spending time in my shops I love it when I go there I always what if doing good was the smartest business move you'll ever make I'm James Reid CEO of Reid in my new book Karma Capitalism I reveal how being a Philco that's a company where at least 10% of shares are owned by a charitable foundation has become our business superpower. Companies like Lego, Ikea and Novo Nordisk share the same Philco identity. These businesses last longer, inspire loyalty and make a bigger impact on society. This book is part manifesto, part practical guide. Karma Capitalism is available now at karmacapitalism.org. Being a good business is good business. How many shops do you have now? We've got five. Five shops? Yes. And where are they, if I might ask? So if people listening want to go and visit one of your shops. We've got one in Notting Hill Gate, which is our first shop. And then we've got another one in Duke Street in Mayfair. Another one in Elizabeth Street. Which one in London. Yes. And then we've got one in the King's Road, which is actually a pop-up. And that's about to close. how much long is that open for i think we're we're continuing for another month so get down to the king's room to penelope children's while you can because this yeah and then you've got one and then we've got a beautiful little shop in stone the world which has just had its first birthday right so so you spend quite a lot of time in the shop talking to customers i often pop in and i say i'm just going to pop in to buy a pair of sandals for somebody or something like that and you know four hours later i'm still there talking to customers i love it so you so your business has grown i mean you've got several shops you also have a lot of trade online yes what's your url if people wanted to find you how to what's your penelope chilvers.com penelope chilvers.com and most of our business is done on our done on our website the the stores are a small part of our business and you sell in around the world i imagine yes we wholesale all over the world mostly to america so the the i mean for people who don't know your brand I mean I would describe it as high-end they're very good quality luxury I suppose shoes and boots is that fair is that how you would describe them um yes I mean they're not cheap are they they're not no they're not but actually they're incredibly good value why are they incredibly good value because I'm a stickler for for really good quality we still make in the factories that I visit very often and if it's not me it's somebody else from my team so we we we know we know the we know everything about how the product is made so there are no surprises Making footwear is a fine art and I don cut any corners So I've stuck to my guns on that, on quality. when I've been offered cheaper, better, faster products or production in places like China, I have said no because I've been very loyal to the people that I've been working with who really taught me my trade. So these are the same people for 20 years. They're based in Catalonia. Actually, they're not in Catalonia. They're in Murcia, Alicante, which is Valencia, and Andalusia. Andalusia I can't pronounce those places like you can So in different parts of Spain But you've really stuck to that Spanish Yeah I have I have because I've learned everything And I've learned everything through them And in different factories Things are done differently So And these people have been They've got it in their blood They're shoe dogs I've become one too We've got it in our blood We've been working in the shoe world for you know they've been working in the shoe world for three or four generations. So what's it take so you're very strong on quality you've really just stressed that what does it take to ensure that a shoe is really good quality because it's different to designing clothes isn't it it's a different process it takes longer in many ways. It is. And so what do you really need what you need to look for to ensure that shoes are good quality as a manufacturer as a producer so i think the most important thing is the last which used to be a wooden foot yes leather was stretched over um now they're no longer wood they're a kind of um plastic or polyurethane but they are actually melted down and reused so um there's there's very little waste in the industry in making new new lasts Finding a good last and sticking to it is key to my business. So what makes a good last? Because people's feet are all different, aren't they? Legs are all different. Yes, but if you find a good last like we depend upon, we have three or four lasts that the majority of our footwear is made on, and we know that it fits really well. And this is something you've developed over 25 years. Yes. So you've taken a long time to own it. We've not made, you know, we don't often make a new last. Really? Because we depend on the ones that we know and love. So you know and love these lasts Yes And that's the key to it I had no idea It's one of the keys The other thing is using good materials Yes And the other thing is What do you mean good leather Or what other materials Good leather, good soles Good stitching, cotton threads Good linings And craftsmanship I mean our craftsmanship is really So there's a lot of handwork in this Yes, there's an awful lot of handwork And we work with artisans and small workshops so we don't work in big factories still. The other thing is that we test everything when we get back. When we get our samples into the office, if you come into Penelope Chilver's office, you will see everybody in the office wearing shoes, sometimes one on each foot, but we test everything before we send it to market. So those original boots that you mentioned, will you describe them to me please? Because I want to ask you a follow-up question, but tell us what they look like what are we talking about it's the boot of many measurements it's probably the most difficult boot i ever made um to reinvent it now would be is quite hard it's an equestrian boot so it's cut um tight to the leg you know it's got a an elegant ankle a long shaft a zip on the outside and um you know when you're riding that you can't have a zip on the inside because it can rub on your leg against the horse um it's on a tread sole um which you possibly call a yard sole in the equestrian language and it's made of a good it's made of um a vegetable dyed conker brown leather which has a beautiful patina and gets better and better with age um so one of one of your famous customers i have to know is catherine princess of wales who's had a pair of these boots i think for a very long time because she was famously photographed or film going to a monastery in bhutan wearing your boots and and i think i recall that you know the sales shot through the roof at this time just because she chose to wear them and she keeps wearing them which is good because she does which supports It's your case that they're high quality because they've lasted her many years and she obviously loves them. Well, she looks incredibly good in them, so I'm very lucky. She actually just wore them very recently, just after Christmas, when on her birthday she released a beautiful film about being at one with nature and how important that is for the soul. And she was wearing our boots again. I shouldn't make jokes about souls at this point. So she loves your business. She's a loyal customer. Yeah. And I mean, that's, but what's striking for me about that is how important that can be for business. You know, how the endorsement of someone well-known, famous celebrity can really help sales. Because I'm often saying, I think celebrities should be mindful of that and help small artisans, new businesses more by wearing things, showing things. And she's been a great advocate just through loving the boots, by the way. Really authentically loving the boots. And she wears, they're an outdoor boot. They've got a purpose. They're a very purposeful design. They're a great walking boot. And so I'm great. She's had these at least 10 years, I think. At least. Yeah, so they're durable. Well, I do believe in making footwear that lasts a lifetime. That lasts a lifetime. And that boot construction, which we use in three of our workshops, is called the Goodyear welt. And that was, well, if it was in England, it was a Victorian piece of machinery that you, it's a double stitch sole so that you can take the sole off, the heel and sole off, and then re-sole. And it's probably the best construction there is. And it's the most expensive as well. Right. But there's a sort of message here. It's worth spending some money on your footwear because it can last forever if you get the right things. Absolutely. And if you care for them. Yeah. And they're comfortable to wear. Our customers really know how to care for their boots because you know what our best-selling product is? No. Polish. Oh, right. Shoe polish. Isn't that extraordinary? That's your best selling product. Sad. Sad price wise. But wonderful that people know how to look after their shoes. Yeah. Well, I obviously love them. It's not something we even push. You know, we very rarely, we should talk about it more. I should give more demonstrations on how to, I should give more demonstrations on how to care for your shoes. Yeah. So when you started the business, Penelope, you had two young girls. I believe that both your daughters now work with you in the business so they sort of literally grew up with it talk me through that journey because it's now it feels to me more of a family enterprise now if they're sort of supporting you in different ways well we've got 50 employees two of them happen to be my daughters so I wouldn't call it a family business exactly I have an MD and we have a structure, like any good business, well-run business. And both my daughters came into the business at different times and for different reasons. But I think it is to do with feeling innately knowledgeable and passionate about a business through growing up with it and listening to me on the phone at home. I used to work at home a lot when the children were little. so perhaps it was that that got them interested in coming into the business but they also both happen to be very artistic and they've been a great inspiration to me as well in style and design so that I mean that sounds to me entirely positive from everyone's point of view you sort of hesitated to call it a family business you don't you don't like that description or you don't feel that um i think no i i love the idea of a family business and um i think it probably looks like we're a family business from the outside but as i say when i think a family business means that um that it's owned by the family right so your business is more sort of widely yes i have investors yeah yeah yeah let's go into that so you started off you started off very much on your own with small children but then you've grown the business and you've been able to do that recently through in raising funds from investors yeah how did you find that experience what would you advise to others seeking to sort of do similar I'm not sure if I could give advice on that but certainly if I had a different kind of training I would have thought about where I was going to be in three years time at the beginning and made sure I had the funds to do it and I didn't I think it was much more a matter of um just feeling lucky every day that i could pay myself to do something that i really love to do and um i like to stay in that position as the as as the creative director yeah so so you you were sort of thinking more short but it's you need money don't you to acquire the stock i suppose when you had that 30 000 orders yeah you've got to have some cash to pay the people in spain to make the boots and buy the leather absolutely and so you need a cash flow for that that's i imagine quite substantial as the business grows yes it is and at certain times of year it's um it's absolutely critical and you have a lot of stuff complicated business yeah wholesale retail production yeah so how how how as you've grown have you found support for that how have you hired people what do you look for what did you do business is tough isn't it i mean you have to have a team surrounding you that are absolutely determined to do all their best to make that sale i mean every sale counts that's what i tell all my employees um and so many young people come straight out of school or university and they have learned many many academic skills however the commercial skills you don't acquire until you start trading and until you understand that how critical it is it's you're not really a cog in that wheel and I think that that's what I found whether you're on the shop floor or whether you're in e-com or whether you're in design it's everybody has to work together to sell and so everyone in the team's a salesperson in a sense i think so yeah yeah i like that i think it's and and you know and determined to make the business successful i think that's right because whatever business we talk about sales have to happen for to be a business absolutely doesn't matter whether you're a lawyer or whether you're making shoes or selling shoes or you're in recruitment sales is vital I give talk sometimes to um to my customers and I tell them how I started my business and at the end of the talk a lot of a lot of women come up to me and say that they have children just leaving school or university who'd really like to get into the fashion business and have I got any tips for them and I always say to them to just to just tell that artists suggest to their children that they jump right in because I don't think they however many years they've been learning the academics of business until you're actually in a business yeah business is not an academic activity it isn't they're the opposites they actually are the opposites yeah I often think that you know at school you have to write essays i never write anything down much in business always talking to people you can't collaborate that's called cheating so you know when in business we do that all the time you can't copy that's a good idea yeah so i i think that's right and i think there's a sort of i've come across i don't know if you have a sort of reluctance around selling people say i don't want to do that i don't like i don't like that idea i don't think the british are very good at selling don't you i think you know if you go to america and you see how wonderfully good they are at at selling um and how passionate they are about business and commerce even my customers you know the enthusiasm they show for me and my business is quite astounding and how much they support it because they believe in what I'm doing. We have a huge audience for this podcast in America for the very same reason I think People are much more interested in business So what can we learn from them Penelope What should British businesses and British business people be doing more of? I think they're very articulate, the Americans. I think they have a passion for business and work and a good work ethic. And I think we can learn that from them. So do you go there a lot? So do you go there to sell yourself? We're actually in Texas at the moment. We have a new showroom there. So we're selling the autumn winter collection there at the moment. So you're selling riding boots to Texans. I like that. That's a Coles to Newcastle. Absolutely. Excellent. We do. How's that going? Cowboy boots are our best-selling boots throughout the US, and they have been for many years. They're well-known for being, I think, incredibly comfortable and lightweight compared to the Mexican or Spanish, sorry, or American made cowboy boots. So yours are lighter and more stylish. You don't need to run them over with a truck before wearing them to soften them. Oh, right. Okay, well, that's a good selling point. So are you hoping to expand more in America? Is that part of your plan for the future? Yes, yes, we are. I mean, we've been- Would you open a shop there or? I don't think we'll do that at the moment. Things are too much up in the air, aren't they? And that would be a very expensive thing to do. But through Wholesale and Nordstrom, who are our main stockist in the US, and they sell throughout the US through Nordstrom, they're a fantastic partner for us. So it's a very big market though, isn't it? Yes. We had Johnny Bowden on the podcast. he was opening his first shop in Atlanta. I haven't had any feedback. It's probably open now, but that might be an outlet for you. You should see if you can put some of your boots in. So as I understand it, Penelope, you're sort of widening your range and you've started to introduce clothes as well as other accessories. This is a change in strategy. Could you explain why you're doing this? Yes, and we've run the numbers many, many times over. Over the last two years, we've been thinking about product and how to expand the range. And I think we've got our footwear down to a really wonderful place at the moment. We have so many what we call our icons. We have some great iconic styles that we've been selling year in, year out for many, many years. And they're still growing as pieces. and then we bring in new products in the footwear. But we felt that we thought it was a good plan to sell more products to the same customer. As you know, acquiring new customers is difficult and expensive. And with the state of the world at the moment, there's so much unknown about stability in economies around the world. It's ever-changing. and so we thought that if there's one sure thing we've got a very loyal customer at Penelope Childers so to be able to offer them something above the knee instead of just below it was a good plan and as I say we've run the numbers many times over to see how we could do that and we're now in our second season of producing clothing. So what sort of items what sort of clothing is it you're Focusing on? In the winter, we'll be focusing on outerwear to go with our outdoor boots and party wear to go with our party shoes. Basically, what I've started designing is full looks head to toe, starting with the feet. Very unusual way to design. Ground up. So I know... Ground up and above the knee. I know how our customers wear our shoes. So I know the kind of customer that buys a party shoe from us, and I probably know what kind of dress she might like to wear with it or what jacket she might like to wear with our inclement boots, which are our best-selling waterproof long tassel boots, like the ones that we were talking about earlier that Catherine wears. so I'm really enjoying this stage it's absolutely fantastic for me as a creative to be able to to think about the full the full outfit from you know that's a big deal toe to head toe to head that's a big deal though having a whole new range of that I mean that's a big investment isn't it it absolutely is I mean how many different sort of outfits or items are you looking at well we're starting very small starting very small and it's a bit like starting the business again. What's very small? Yeah, what do you mean by that? Well, in SKUs. So we have probably 120 SKUs a season in our footwear and in our clothing we have started with, in the first season I think we had 30 and we'll go up to 60. So you have 30 different items. Yes. Is that what you mean by SKUs? Yes, different items. Right. And so you've started selling clothing. We have. And it's been very successful. Excellent. What have been the best-selling clothing items? The equivalent of the tassel boot. I'm wearing a shearling giulia at the moment, which I've called the Incredible giulia because it is the same as our Incredible boots in that it's got a trim, a woven trim around the outside, just like our Incredible boots. And then it's shearling on the inside, just like our Incredible boots, which are our best-selling snow boots. It's very comfortable. And warm at this time of year. And warm. And can be bought by the same person. Yeah. So having things that match your boots is quite clever. Well, it's a design. Yeah, they're nice tram lines to work with them. Yeah. So from the ground up makes sense. And what about other accessories? Are you doing that as well? Yes, we've always done other accessories. We make beautiful socks. and we also make bags, wash bags, travel bags. So did you have a men's range at one point? We do a tiny amount of menswear, but you see that is not our customer. So that is a different industry. What do you do in menswear? The only thing we do for men is our unisex styles because I like to think that women can also wear them if they have size 43, 44 feet. So it's an area that I love and I'm very passionate about. And if I have my way, I would introduce more menswear. However, I have a very, very good merchandising team who, you know, who persuade me not to or dissuade me. Right. Well, I suppose it's good to know who your customers are. Absolutely. And to give them the best service. and products that you can. And if it goes too wide, that might- Absolutely, yes. Might suffer as a consequence. Yeah, I mean, I look at the numbers every single day of what's selling. So you said you had some sort of iconic products that year in, year out. How many would you put in that category? We have about 12. 12. Well, at the moment, we've identified six in the summer and six in the winter. And the way I worked out how to design clothing was to look at, for me and product, I mean, there are obviously many other ways of looking at what we should be making, but for me to look at those iconic six and six, you know, from summer and winter styles, that way I can kind of work out who the woman is who's buying them and how she likes to wear them. Yes. And that gives you a sort of guide as to what to do for the clothing range. I mean, you know, as I said, our product's so purposeful. I design product to go out and do things in. I don't really just like to design product that just fills a wardrobe. It's really got to be useful. It's really got to play its part. And I kind of know why people are buying them. So if it's an apres ski boot or a snow boot, I know that they're going to be wearing it in the snow. So I know that if they're going to the snow, they want a jacket that they can also wear. Right. But this is a sort of knowledge that you've developed over time, a real expertise that feels quite uniquely yours. Yeah. And my big challenge now is to get under the skin and get to know the families of the producers and the factories and the factory workers. For the clothing? Yeah. So is that all made in Spain as well? I don't like working with middlemen. I like to be on the factory floor and getting to know them. And so that's my next challenge, which I love. I think that's probably what I most love about my job. Watching it being made. Back to working with those artisans that I met in Barcelona. So are your clothes made in Spain as well? Yes, some of them are. Anywhere else? Any in the UK? Portugal, Spain, the UK. Well, that's good. Some of them are made in the UK. Yes, and a little bit in India, our curtains. Right. So do you notice any differences in those locations in terms of being able to get where you are? I'm going to Delhi in two weeks' time. Right. And I really look forward to meeting that factory. So our government's got this new trade deal with India. Is that helpful to you? I mean, we keep hearing about it. Is that going to be good news for Penelope Chilvers? I hope so. I hope so. Yeah, I hope so too. It would be good to see. On the other side is, you know, the tariffs in the US. Are they, well, at the moment. How's that affected you? Yeah, it's because they keep changing, don't they? They do keep changing. I mean, at the moment it's 10% for us. And we've had to share that extra cost with our customer and taken on the other half ourselves. So that's hit you somewhat. Yeah. Yeah. And what I've found is that what we land in the US is selling incredibly well. So our sales have really grown with stockists in the US. Yeah. So you're doing a lot of wholesale. Yes. And online sales. And online sales less because of the price. You've noticed that immediately. Absolutely, yes, in August. Right. Yeah. 20% we lost I mean it was extraordinary from one month to the next we lost because of those tariffs it's now settled down again and people are buying again in the US but 20% is a big hit August and September outside of your control so what do you do when that happens? just find another way I mean having been trading now for 25 years I've been through different markets you know we used to sell a lot to Japan and then their economy went down and now it's going back up again. And they're thinking, how do we get into the ski resorts in Japan? Got to get them going again. Yeah, Japan's doing rather well by all accounts. And so that would be a good market again. So you have to keep looking. That's your message. Very stylish ski resorts. That sounds like an opportunity. So how do you see the business developing from here, Penelope? What are your next priorities? What would you like to happen in the next chapter? I just, I think to keep growing steadily is the most important thing for us. And I think that with the clothing and the footwear together, that should happen. So you're very much taken of you, you want to grow organically then, steadily you say. Yes. Rather than do anything. Yes. High risk. Yeah. Steady as she goes. and that's been a good strategy for you it really has yes yeah and you would have recommend that to others who start out i don't think i'm the right person to give advice to others on on on how to grow necessarily um everybody does it differently and has different amount of money to spend and different training yeah for me it's been this is work for you for me it's been really good and really grounding um you know to learn to learn my trade from the beginning to where I am now as a you know as a footwear designer I feel like I've been through thick and thin with it but I really know it now so well yeah that phrase you use learn my trade is there's something very sort of true about that and I mean it sounds quite sort of old-fashioned but it's as true now as it ever was. I'm in an industry. We have to learn our trade. I mean, all trades are different. It's a very small trade as well. It's very small. Sorry, it's a small world, the footwear industry. I think that's true of a lot of businesses. And so many people fail in it. So many people. There are so many. It's such a difficult one. Why do they fail, do you think? I think it's complicated making footwear. You know, they're... They don't have the right lasts. They don't have the right lass, they don't have the right people to make them. They haven't, I think, probably what I've learned most about, I think probably what I got over my competitors is possibly these relationships that I got with the people who make things for me I mean when I speak fluent Spanish and live in London so that a huge advantage but I've what do you mean living in London those relationships why is living in London a huge advantage because it's it's well over the years it's been a good place to to trade from you know A lot of business. Strong economy, a lot of business. Yeah. And that connection with Spain is very well established. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But I've nurtured those businesses over the years, and they look after us. I can ask anything of them, and we've done so much together. I mean, I've even been on pilgrimages with them. Right. And been christened into the brotherhood. Right. And, or sisterhood. Right. And I'm hoping to, what do you say, apply for a prize for bringing industry to Spain, from outside Spain. Right. I've done a lot for the footwear world in Spain. I bet you have. They should award you that. I hope so. I'm going to apply this year. I hope someone out there is listening and we'll put you forward. Yeah, I think that's clearly. So what I'm hearing, though, is the importance and the respect you show for your suppliers. You know, lots of people sort of, I feel you see suppliers in a sort of quite transactional way and, you know, treat them like widgets and try and push the price down. And you've got a different kind of relationship which has served you really well, which is basically a partnership you trust them they trust you you have to because you know so many things can happen in a long relationship I mean at times my my factories have been in trouble financially and at times we've been in trouble financially and we understand that it is a partnership and that's why I'm a key customer of theirs and they are absolutely key. They are partners in my business. In my business career. They deliver late. It's lost business for everybody. No, it's not good. No, it's so important that you can trust each other. But in my business career, I've observed some clients we've really partnered with and others have preferred a sort of master-servant relationship. which I never like much because I don't think it's as creative or productive as the type of relationship you describe where you can keep improving together and come up with better results for everybody. Yeah, no, it's definitely, it's a codependence. Yeah, I think that's a really smart message that is useful for any business to pick up. Treat your suppliers properly, form a partnership with them, and you'll do better than if you don't. Absolutely. Otherwise, somebody else will get in there and take, you know. I've been in my factory sometimes drawing up in the top room above the office in one of my factories, and I go there and actually sit down and draw out everything that I want to do there, and then we'll make samples. Sometimes we'll start the samples when I'm there and finish them the next day. Anyway, I've been in that room drawing away and heard people coming into the factory office and saying, I've heard this is where Penelope Chilvers makes her shoes, and we'd like you to make them for us. And they've come in with, you know, with... Oh, these are competitors? Well, maybe not even competitors. Would be competitors. Would be competitors. And the factory owners, you know, said, well, she's upstairs. Do you want to speak to her? And they go, oh, actually, maybe not. And scuttled out. Yeah, so that's good. So they've got your back. But, you know, if you don't... Yeah, if you don't give a factory good business, then they'll get it somewhere else. So it's... Is it, I mean, you are in the world of fashion, which is famously sort of unpredictable. Does that trouble you? I mean, what's in fashion now, maybe not next year. How do you cope with that? How do you think ahead? How do you make sure you navigate the... We're in a world of slow fashion now. Slow fashion. I mean, you know, it used to be so much more fickle and fashion changed so fast. But nowadays, it's not about that. And I think we're very lucky because we've never been about that anyway. But nowadays, people don't want to spend so much money. They don't want on clothing. They want to buy things that will last them for a long time and be classics and not go out of fashion. So we fit well into that. So you feel the markets come towards you, really, then, in that sense? Yes. Well, that's good, isn't it? It's good news for you. So you're much more interested in the classic than the juxtaposition. And I really believe in that as well. I can't stand waste, and I can't stand fast fashion. And I think of those landfills full of non-biodegradable fibers, and it makes me feel sick, actually. Yes. I like to use as many biodegradable materials as I possibly can. And some of our products are 100% biodegradable, like our espadrilles. Yes. They're 100%, you know, jute and cotton. And that's my passion, and it's the way I make choices. So, Penelope, you talked about how you feel the world is coming towards the slow fashion approach. but I mean fast fashion is still very much out there is is there a tension in terms of behaving ethically and producing what you believe to be the right kinds of products and fast fashion and the needs of the market I think I think our customers come to us for well-made slow fashion products I think we're already well known for that and we're already um doing very well you If I think about the icons that I was talking about earlier, they're all classics. You can wear them year in, year out, and they last for a very long time, too long. One could say, if I made shoes that could be destroyed faster, I could sell more, but that's not what customers come to us for. But the challenge is actually informing our customers more about it and getting our team from top to bottom, whether it's talking to the customers or on the website. I think it's educating our customers about those assets that we have is the challenge. We don't do it well enough. You're sort of well known for it, but you'd like to be better known for it. And you think this is a key competitive advantage I'm hearing, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. How are you going to do that? How would you approach that, do you think? I think we just need to be more informative all the time and probably have... I mean, if I could take every member of the team to a factory to show them how things are made, wouldn't that be a wonderful thing? Maybe you should. Maybe I should. Two at a time. I think that's really interesting. I mean, that idea of seeing the continuity from the basic components to the beginning to the end of a business process is really interesting in all sorts of aspects. I mean, it would certainly help everyone understand what the business is about. I don't think enough businesses do that. I think it's a really interesting idea. I cannot imagine how bigger businesses than myself, you know, manage to live and breathe a brand or an ethos. I find it such a challenge and we're only 50 people. Yeah, that's a good question. Got any thoughts on how they do it? I don't know if they have more workshops than we do work. You might be doing it better than you realize. I mean because being a small business with you very much there very visible, very present I think probably people understand it pretty well but it's hard to tell when you're in the thick of it sometimes It is, yes It's a woods for the trees sort of situation but for me looking from the outside your brand is very specific to you Yes, it is too close to me to see that I know what I like and I know what I don't like and I know what's us and I know what we stand for. But I work so hard within it that I don't have time possibly to teach that. Well, I think what you've been talking about right now is if everyone in the business listens to this, they'll have a pretty good idea. Anyone else? I mean, products that last a long time, that are ethical. I think actually if they just if everyone worked on the shop floor we did that for a while every member of the team to work on the shop floor that's a great thing because you learn from your customers you learn so much yes you learn so much from your customers yeah well back to the floor was a famous concept wasn't it yeah TV and I think that's yeah so that I mean lots of companies I think do that routinely every year you know people have to do that and if you've got retail sites so you're coming up with ideas as you speak i am making it up as we go along that's brilliant so they're going to go to the factories and they're going to work on the shop floor and i think a lot of other people would would want to do that too and support that in their businesses good ideas i mean it keeps us close to the customer who ultimately pays our wages yes so what would you say looking forward to your biggest challenges and opportunities at the moment? As you plan for your future in business? They're every day, aren't they? It's whether you're hiring the right staff. That's key, to have the right people around you. And I think the opportunities are finding wonderful new people to work with in production, with new product. I'm really excited about making as close to home as possible and working with British manufacturing. I love the steep learning curve that producing new product gives me. What do you look for in the people you hire in terms of that team you build around you? Are there any qualities or characteristics you particularly look for in your business? Communication, I think, is the most important thing. because because if they ask questions because you can you can have somebody who doesn't ask questions you just it takes two weeks to know whether they understood what you're saying or not right you know you realize that they didn't understand what you were saying two weeks later if they don't ask but if somebody says hold on i don't get what you're saying what do you mean by that in the first conversation you have with them then I know that they're going to learn fast. Right. So curiosity around. Curiosity, yes. Communication. Well, I would agree people are the beginning and end of all businesses. If you want to build something successfully, finding the right people, I would say that, wouldn't I, as a recruiter, is absolutely critical. I believe that fundamentally. Penelope, I'm sorry that I haven't got any of your shoes on. Being a man, they don't fit me. but I wish you continued success with your wonderful business. I'd like to ask you just a couple of questions at the end that I ask everyone who comes on my podcast. The first is because at Reed, we love Mondays. Yes. What is it? What is it that gets you up on a Monday morning? My creativity. I wake up every day full of ideas and creativity. I love my work so much. So I love Mondays too. So you just want to get going. I love the sound of that. And then lastly, where do you see yourself in five years time? I don't know. I don't know. If I'm not doing what I'm doing now, I'll be doing something different. But I will be working. Right. I'll be making things. I love making things. You'll just keep making things. Yeah, I think so. I believe that. And I look forward to seeing what they are. Thanks so much for coming in. It's been a real pleasure talking to you. And yeah, I wish you continued success with your wonderful business. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Penelope, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, Chairman and CEO of Reid, a family-run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to learn more about Reid, Penelope Chilvers, and her approach to building a values-led brand, you'll find all the links in the show notes. Thank you for listening, and see you next time. Thank you.