Jackson White: Toxicity and Tell Me Lies

what is up daddy gang it is your founding father alex cooper with call her daddy jackson white welcome to call her daddy thank you how are you doing as if we haven't like like asked that question like nine times before we started this yeah yeah we've been like hanging out for a second before we started recording guys um was i the most high maintenance you're not high maintenance no no no i'm just dealing with a lot right now emotionally because i just watched the finale last night oh that kind of and so like i'm i'm just trying to process like you as you and all the girls came up and they're like oh he's like really charming and he's like really nice and then like watching steven last night i know and so it's like a little bit of a mind fuck to be sitting here with steven de marco being like should i be scared like what's survive. Do people come up to you on the street and call you Steven or Jackson? All the time. It's mostly Steven. How do you feel about it? I'm excited for it to be not to get to the phase where it's your name. It's a great honor to be a great character, but I'm super stoked for my own name to be said. But now I'm Steven. Jackson represent. One day. But it's cool. I'm Steven now i'm steven um when i think about steven i feel like he's kind of the antithesis of the america sweetheart you know can you kind of just try to explain to us what it was like playing a literal sociopath like how did you get into that character yeah that's a great question i mean it started it started as it always just very simply you just try and be truthful and enjoy the character and learn him and then he turned into this like absolute garbage fire of a guy but at the beginning it was really fun it was like it was like why does he do what he does and it was a complicated guy in a complicated relationship and it was really fun and then the writers just turned him into a he's you know he's the worst he's like one one step behind like a serial killer that's what i've heard he's right there he's baby serial killer yeah he is um i feel like it's funny to watch online a lot of people have talked about how there are these like mannerisms and the posture and the way he walks and the hands in the pockets. Like, is that something that you also do in your normal life? Or did you create that for this character? So he, it's both. Like there's a- Do you have good posture? Are you scared of me? I'm not scared of you. I'm just, it's a rewiring of the brain. Yeah. Because I just binged it. Yeah. So I've been watching you. By the way, I do have bad posture, but it's not like, I have, I'm a drummer. Okay. And my whole life I was like this. And then so my back. Like the hunchback. Yeah, but I'm working on it. You work on it. I didn't go to like theater school and learn the breath in the back. I didn't do that, but I'm working on it. What about the eye contact thing? Did you work on that for Steven? You kind of like don't blink? Oh, that's, yeah. There's isms in there that are fun. how do you prep for that do you like look at yourself in the mirror and do that uh no that'd be crazy or would it be like amazing that'd be nuts i don't know he's he's he has a lot of um things half are mine half are invented i don't know it's kind of a combo of both uh but he's very physical like he's definitely a different physical he's a different walk he has a different thing he's very like calculating and still and he moves kind of like that yes except when he's like angry and then he'll walk different there's like a lot of stuff that i tried to like play with we love him he's a shark he's a do we i don't think no i'm just trying to you're just trying to like make me feel better it don't it don't play it it's fine it's a lot he he's a he's a yeah it's hard to like that guy i read that you and i don't know if you still do this but you used to watch every episode of Tell Me Lies like four times. You could go from like hating to then loving your performance. Did you do that for the season? Nope. Why? Because it's gone too far. Okay. I can't. I don't want to do that anymore. It hurts. It's very fun to study the tape. I like to learn from that. But then it becomes masochistic and you're like, it just gets, it's not healthy. Did you watch season three? briefly briefly yeah i don't know what that means what is briefly like i'll do it's like i i watched it once okay with a with a far lens with like a detached lens you weren't like directing yourself no like why did you do that what did you do but no but it creates a it's very emotional to watch a lot of yourself it kind of sucks do you watch your own yeah but i've been now doing this for a Like in the beginning days, it was harder. Yeah. But it's not fun. I think that happened with Steven where I detached him unintentionally as it went on. Yep. I think I tried to bring myself into him. But then as he became worse and worse, I was like, yeah, he's a character. I'll make him be a character. And then I could. Then you can play with it more and detach. I'm thinking about it being Wednesday. everyone just found out that this was the series finale not the season finale and none of us had any idea that this was the end of tell me lies how are you feeling and how did you find out uh really recently a few days ago actually and who told you so grace actually told me and we were both in the airport we were both in the airport in separate parts of the airport We're in different terminals. Different terminals. So far away. Two terminals away. It's a new love story. And I felt really, really sad initially. Even though I knew creatively that's what was supposed to happen. That's what the intention always was. And it's a very perfect. We'll get into that. We're going to get into it if it was a perfect ending. I do think it was. I think it's hilarious. But it was very sad. I was sad. Because it's like you made a family. The cast was like a family. And then you also lost a job. You didn't. But it also feels like a little bit like that. And it's been four years putting yourself into something. So it was like a mixed bag. So did you guys have like a conversation with your castmates? Like, are you guys going to have like a going away party? Yeah. I mean, I wish. I hope. Because we're so close. And everyone, I think, is emotional about it. Even though, I don't know, you just can't plan for these things. Okay, let's talk about the finale. Okay. I sat down. I had snacks. I was locked in. Yeah. I was like, how are they going to wrap this thing up? Yeah. There's so many questions. Like what's going to happen with Pippa and Brie and Wrigley and you and why are you marrying Lydia and what that like there's so many questions. And then she did manage to wrap the entire thing up in the finale. How did you feel about it when you were filming it and then when you got to watch it? I laughed hysterically when I read it. We all did because it was like, oh, he he wins. That's so funny. That's so cosmically funny. funny. I am sorry. I think it's a big tragic comedy at the end. It's so fucking crazy. Yeah. I hope everyone laughs. No, no, no. You don't understand. Did you do you like look online when people are talking about the series at all? Because everyone said anymore. Okay. The only way that you it would get be a justifiable ending. Everyone was like Steven needs to die. Right. He needs to die. And then you like kind of won. That's so good. That's so funny. Not even like strictly, oh, my character. Like that's fucking hilarious. It's crazy. Like you have the guy who's the object of the torment or the whatever, the aggressor. And then it's like very, it's not realistic because it's television, but it's a new thing. I've never seen that done before. Well, it's also really realistic of like this sometimes is how it fucking goes. Yeah. Like probably not to that extent. No, hopefully not. Hopefully not. But that's kind of how it goes. Like a lot of bad people win. How did you feel filming the wedding scene? That whole blow up and then you taking the mic at 3 a.m. and being like, one more fucking thing, ladies and gentlemen. It was cool. Well, it was 3 a.m. It was like 4 a.m. We were doing that all night. And I had the flu. I had like 103 feet. I had a fever. I was like sweating and sore throat. And they like juiced me up and I went out there and just blacked out. I just, that was crazy. It's crazy that that happened on that day. Who do you think made out the best in the show by the end? Do you want to say it together? One, two, three, Steven. Motherfucker. I know. Because I was like, okay, technically Diana. You're like Diana. Oh, yeah. She got away. But on the Richter scale of like, who did the worst shit that then got out the best? Like, yeah, he got rejected now from Yale and they like got rid of him. But you got to do another one on Lucy at the very end. That was a mind fuck the gas station moment. I was like, literally go fuck yourself. I know. I know. It's twisted. And then you're the one holding the mic like literally like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang to every single person. He just ices everyone in the room. Smoked him. I had fun. I don't know how I feel about it. Do you, are you like, yeah, like what, what is the response to something like that? I think that it weirdly, as I've had time to process it now, I'm finding that at first I couldn't decide if I wanted it to end where you and Lucy just like left in the car together. You thought that, did you think that that's where it was going to end? I thought it was going to end there because I was like, oh, and he's going to fuck her over again. But then Megan made the decision. No, let me have you watch one more time. Him fuck her over again. That's the perfect ending to this show. Because why am I so fucked up that I low key wanted you guys to end up together? Right. Right. That's the whole thing. You're disgusting. You murdered someone. I know. And that's the whole joke. Yeah. And then it's a perfect ending. Like, this will never end. Okay. Can you indulge me for a second? Yeah. So I think to your credit, you brought to life a character that millions of people are frustrated by. They hate. They've found some moments where they've like loved you or liked you. And then they go back to hating you and being disgusted. And now the character we're done with. But I thought today we could really finish it off strong. And you can get into character one last time. Get into character? Mm-hmm. Oh, shit. Get your posture ready. Darn it. Yeah, right. Just my shitty posture. All right. You're going to get into character as Steven. And you are going – I'm going to give you scenarios from my audience. And I want you to give advice as if you are Steven speaking. So, Steven, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Okay. Oh, God. Look at him getting into character. Okay. So I'm going to come back and I'm going to answer your questions. Now I'm Stephen. Okay. All right. I'm Stephen. I'll answer to everyone. Hey, how you doing? Hi. Can you adjust the microphone to be closer to you? I think it's fine where it is. Sure. That'll make you more comfortable? That'll make me really comfortable. Thanks. This is my show. Sure. Okay. Stephen. Someone wrote in and said, I went through my boyfriend's phone last night and saw he has an active dating profile. Should I tell him I know? What do I do, Stephen? No, hold that in. Hold that in for a long time. Use it when you have to. You weaponize it. Wait until you're in a situation where he is in front of his parents and reveal it and put it on a flash drive. wait until you're making love and at the moment of climax reveal that you know about his dating profile okay steven sorry this is great no this is great okay next one okay this is kind of really relatable to steven okay my boyfriend and i keep getting into massive arguments but he never takes accountability for his actions. How can we move forward if you will never own up to the things that he's done? Find the people who are he holds dear Learn his secrets It constantly like hostage Same thing Hold information Put it on your computer. And then use it at a horrible time. I think that's what he does. Why do you think that he gave Lucy back the tape? Maybe he was exhausted. He was like, I don't want to do it. I'm bored. Bitch, I'm going to Yale. Yeah, he's bored. Yeah, that's probably what it was. He was bored. yeah he's bored he was like you look pathetic yeah i tortured you enough yeah he's done now i need to find another thing to torch you over he's over okay we're moving on let's talk about grace okay let's talk about my girl that that's easy for me okay that's i can relax well when grace came on here she talked to me about how she kind of has this thing for like kind of crazy pajamas and after she then sent me the video of her in the said crazy pajamas which video which vid you get you took the video and it's her she kind of looks like she's in it's like a this is the one with the black feathers oh no not that one i didn't get that one it was we didn't get that one it was more of like a jester striped situation striped situation and And I was wondering, did you wear anything lucky last night to bed to prepare for this interview? Did I wear anything lucky last night to bed? To prepare for this interview. More people would ask me that. I didn't wear anything lucky. Okay. I wore my normal bed wear. Okay. What do you wear? Underwear. And I like a tank top when I sleep. Okay. Just a little, like not the full t-shirt thing and not, or I'll rip it off and go just underwear. Just underwear. And I just want to clarify, like, I wasn't asking you. I wouldn't have asked you this unless your girlfriend told me. Because I'm picturing Grace wearing her full jester outfit and then you in normal. Yeah, she's in a, well, she wears the cap with the bell. Like Scrooge. Yep. She looks like Scrooge. With the elf feet. Yep, with the feet and she's grumpy and she's sitting there with it over her breast and then I'm in nothing and that's how we sleep. It works. I love that. It's great. Okay, so that you wore like a normal outfit to bed last night. I love that. Yeah. These are the hard-hitting facts that we need to just know on Call Her Daddy. When I got to interview her a few months ago, loved her. She's lovely. She told me about how you guys met and how you fell in love. But she said that you were giving off very, very serious actor energy on the initial video call where you guys met. How do you remember that going? Well, when you're nervous, you go into a mode course. So when you're on like a big – she had the job. I didn't have the job. So I was in like a mode. I was in like a, hello, nice to meet you. And we do a mode. It wasn't serious, but it was like – Trying to get the job. Yeah. And then I remember what happened. She always trips up on this. She had the job. I didn't have the job. This is a very interesting conversation on power. And she said, do you need anything from me? Which is a very like actor question, not to throw back on her, but that's very like, do you need anything from me performance wise? and then i think i said no you're doing great no you're doing great which if you don't know me i can sound very condescending sometimes but i do i mean it genuinely i can sound very like like good job right you're like horrible job you're like no really good job you know what i mean when someone's like hey you're doing great right and so i think i probably sound like a dick but I really meant it. She was like, can I do anything? I'm like, no, you're great. Okay. So then you left that. And did you feel any vibes? Romantic vibes? Um, no, we were pretty, we were, we were walled up. We were walled up. Um, she was, yeah, she, from the very initial time, we were both like in relationships. We were like, it was not like that. I think it was, it wasn't until everyone was open and we might do this job together. that's when we started you know what do you remember about the first time you started to have like oh my god wait could i have romantic feelings for this person when she texted me what did she text you like hey like what's up i was i was in i was in canada for some reason and she said uh it was like you know hey come to new york she didn't say like come to new york but she was like what are you doing i'm doing this for the holiday she was like oh i was like i might come to new york and she was like something like cool and sexy where she was like you should like you fucking should like with a fuck you should fucking do it or something like that and you guys were already filming tell me lies no no no i i still hadn't had the job it took me eight months to get this job i had to convince so many people to let me do this job it was very funny um because you're so good at the role well thanks no no i i um they just had to comb the earth i guess to find this it's a very complicated guy and there was like a lot of dudes who did it you know whatever yeah whatever yeah yeah and then she had the job i didn't have the job and then i went to new york and we kind of like talked about all the reasons why we shouldn't do it because i don't have the job yet and then yep okay wait i remember though you said that you were dying to make the first move but didn't have the courage to go through with it what was going on what do you remember feeling in that moment just like ripping out of your chest kind of thing you know that thing and when she finally went in for the kiss maybe that's a power thing like i didn't want to sorry to interrupt no this is good i didn't want to make a move because i didn't have the that's not really it but i can totally be a people pleaser i can totally think i'm overstepping maybe i wanted to not step on anyone's toes what do you mean well like like what if I didn't have the role and then I kissed her and then she was like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa now you're definitely not getting the role you know what I mean like what if I overstepped so she kind of had to make the first move and she did and that's not these thoughts aren't going through my head but I'm definitely wait we're reflecting yeah yeah yeah that's interesting you're probably like some subconsciously I probably like tread lightly yeah you like her but don't right because it was a work dynamic also yeah and that's how it first started so it's like you kind of got a she was my boss she was your boss she was my daddy is she still your daddy she was my she's my daddy grace is my daddy i love that for grace so much honestly you're like i can't believe i said that yeah that's gonna i know where that that's gonna be on your thing. Just that. That's the whole promo. Grace is my daddy. I know. It's perfect. I know what you want. Yeah, just keep giving it. You're doing great. Okay. Is it true that you let Grace give you multiple tattoos early on in the relationship? Yes. What tattoos and how many? One, two, three, four. Now, walk me through that thought process of allowing someone really early on and dating to like fully tattoo your bod were you nervous like what if it ends have you ever done that nope okay i just what if it's done it right i'm like nope yeah you let someone fucking put a needle in no no okay um i don't think you don't think about the you don't think about that i don't think about a lot of i'm very impulsive but that was also hilarious i like i liked it um i liked i like that yeah i don't know you're you're on the adrenaline of the courtship phase plus like pain. And I was down. That was cool. How do you think that your guys' relationship has evolved over the course of the show? It's just gotten more adult. I don't know. It's more like, you don't think the ceiling's gonna cave in. You know what I mean? You're not like, I don't know. You start with a lot of fear in any relationship. and then you kind of get comfortable. And I think we've just grown up. Would you say you start with a lot of fear in the beginning of relationships? Or maybe I do. I was going to say, what do you mean by that? I think normal people don't as much. I'm in a lot of fear. Why? Because I just grew up in fear. I grew up in a lot of inconsistency, so I didn't know what was going on a lot of the time. And so I come at situations from a fearful place sometimes. It gets better and better over the last 10 years, but I absolutely go into things on the defense thinking that it's not going to work out. That's how I approach most things. That kind of relates to you. You said recently in an interview that it's higher stakes to stay together for me than to break up. It's definitely more work and higher stakes to be with somebody. It's way less pressure to not. More painful. But you have to want to be with somebody very, very hard, right? Yes. Would you say if when you look back at your past, were you more comfortable and relaxed being single because you're on your own and you're just dependent on yourself? Or do you like being kind of dependent in a relationship? I think dependent is the wrong word. I think it's important to not be fully dependent. You can be dependent for certain things. I like to be dependent for things that she does better that I don't do. like she's better at so many things and it's nice to have a partner in that to do things that you don't do but the the the dependent part gets tricky when you're like stop seeing friends or whatever you know what i mean that's when you have to start and that's a that's an that's a discipline that's an effort i find or maybe that's just where i come from but it's a discipline for me to round out my life like it's a pie and you have to everything has to be a piece and I have to consciously go to those other pieces so that you don't put too much pressure on a relationship. Let's go back because you just mentioned like you going into a relationship, you're like it starts in fear and then it gets comfortable, which I don't think is like a completely abnormal statement. Like I don't think that's not what people feel. I think maybe fear is like a pretty strong word to use. I think maybe some people are more like, oh, it's a little like you don't know what's going to happen and it's like exciting, but it's a little like up in the air and you're kind of like excited to see what's to come and then eventually you get comfortable. You're like, it's fucking terrifying. Yeah. Which obviously relates to your childhood growing up. Your parents got divorced when you were really young. Yeah. Your dad remarried three times, four times? Three, I think three. How do you think watching your parents' different relationships ultimately impacted your perception of love and commitment? Child of divorce conversation. Like, are you? I'm not. You're not. But I have interviewed a lot of people that are. And I also kind of feel like everyone's got their shit. It's all fucked up. It's all fucking weird. It's so weird. It's all weird. And now it's on us to say, okay, cool. I unpacked it. I figured it out. Goodbye. That's not me. Yes. That's the new, that is the thing. Yes. Because we, therapy now, it's all, it's like, it's too much. Yeah. Yes, like figure yourself out and then let it go. Before you figured yourself out. Yeah. Did you have any patterns that you now can look back and be like, oh, that's just because of like what I was raised seeing that I thought was normal. Yeah, well, yeah, you, I think everyone is like inherently a little narcissistic when you're coming up. That's just what it is. You're like, when you're a teenager, you're like, oh my God. And then you go to college. That's what these characters all are. They're, they're just self-involved. And, and, and you, you just, you start not making yourself the victim because you, you learn that those, that there are consequences or that no one's coming to the rescue and that you can't just make it about yourself and you can't weaponize your, your past and use that in your relationships with your friends because people won't stay anymore. They won't they won't stick. They don want to hang out with you if you if you if you doing that But it is so fucked up because it takes you as we all have done like repeatedly doing something whether it a pattern whether it like jealousy or abandonment wounds or being pulled back and kind of being like not emotionally available whatever it is that you bring And then slowly you get the note enough from partners that you've been with that you're like, okay, I actually have to look at myself. Totally. And I need to address this. Or you don't take the note. And you're out here still just ripping. What do you think one of your notes has been? It's a great question. I mean, I'm, yeah, I got to ban him and stuff. I don't know. I got stuff. Like, I'm afraid of, I'm afraid. It's fear. It's all fear. So I'm like afraid of, I've been afraid of men a lot of the time that like, I've been afraid of, um, like male relationships I've had to work on because, um, I just had, I had a more complicated relationship with men than I did with women. I was, I was kind of raised with my mom, my sister. So, um, so I've had to work on, on that, um, in relationships. Um, I, I can, it's what I was explaining. You're supposed to do is like divide your time. I can totally not do that and put too much pressure on a relationship that's the big note yeah I mean I think that's really relatable too especially if you have that instability growing up and then you get to a point where you're like oh my god I found love I found my person like I found this person that loves me and I love them and then of course you don't want that to end because you're seeing real love and you have it right there and it's accessible you're like I don't want to lose this and then sometimes you hang on to something because you're like, even though subconsciously you know it's not maybe perfect, you're like, but it's also someone that like loves you. Yes. And so you're like, should I just stay because it's something stable or should I go because I know it's not right? And a lot of times with abandonment wounds, you're like, I'm just going to stay. Or you leave first so that they don't abandon you. You get the jump on it. That's definitely real too. How did you feel growing up about your stepmoms? Because that's a lot. It's so funny. The stepmom conversation is so funny. I didn't know them that well. I mean, my dad lived in Franklin in Tennessee. Okay. And my mom lived here. And I would spend the summers and whatnot with him or weeks at a time, whatever, breaks, I'd go out there because I loved it out there. And I would hang out with these new mamas. And they were cool. You know, shout out to Debra. you know i didn't i didn't know him that well but i was like deborah what's up debbie um but i didn't i don't know i i kind of like i kind of um i was a kid i think you have a um you have a gut reaction to somebody who's replacing your parent like i think i gave her a hard time i was like a child but i think i like you know deborah grabbed my arm too hard but i think she was probably a a wonderful person yeah and yet i was like very adverse to to change and and same with my my stepdad my mom remarried and like we've always had a uh two rams locking horns just because it goes against your biology but um but it's they're also filling a very difficult role i could not imagine marrying somebody with kids and just being like these are from a complicated fucked up place but i'm gonna take care of them that's weird so right it's like when you get older you then can have empathy for both dynamics because you're like now you're getting closer to the point where you can picture potentially being in more of like a fatherly role where when you were younger as a kid you're like oh my god this person's gonna replace my dad or replace my mom and now you're like whoa that was a lot to walk into doesn't mean they were perfect i just had this conversation with my with my stepdad where i was like i i just crystallized recently of like oh dude that must be so hard um uh i that's i couldn't imagine you had mentioned kind of like craving the stability of a family unit your entire life when things feel shaky yeah where do you find or where did you find that safety in the in the wrong places and then in the right places like you you you copy your parents like my dad was a my dad was a very complicated amazing person he was like he was a an incredible drummer and music was my whole uh life and my mom is an incredible singer and we grew up playing so much music and and i learned all about music and i've been playing drums since i was a baby and um and it's what i love to do and i and i took all those things from him i also took his like work ethic like he he was a he was a tour manager he was a drummer he ran shit he was a very disciplined guy and i i i have so much of that and i apply that to whatever i i can um but then the the flip side of that was you know he was on these big tours and you know he'd get off these tours and the lights would be off and And he'd be quiet for months on end. And he came from an extremely hostile upbringing. And he didn't have any tools to cope with it. Not like we do in our time. And so, yeah, there's a lot of drinking and all that's under that umbrella. And, you know, I drank a lot with him. and just a lot of drinking and smoking with dad. And so I totally grew up with an interesting, with a skewed perspective on all that. And if I wasn't careful, I would let that run my life, especially when you start doing that when you're young. And when you have your parent being there with you, when you're kind of doing that and it's almost like a bonding thing. Yeah. Oh, yeah. because you're you're young and he's back off the road and you're like oh my god let's sit and let's drink and let's talk that was it and that's kind of you're like a 12 year old kid right so that's that's where it gets tricky and did you ever feel like because it seems like you weren't always with him it was like you would like visit and then you would leave like yeah did you feel like you really got to know him enough or do you like wish that you could have spent more time with him yeah totally i wish i spent more time with them this is what this what it is though um we didn't talk for a long long periods of time just because whatever life but um but but i got to i got to be with them for for the important times um but you have like an idea of your parent maybe it's like girls and their mothers or boys and their fathers but you you they're like superheroes and then you get to the age where you're like oh if that's superman we're we're fucked you know what i mean like oh no and that happened that switch happened in the midst of all that chaos and and um and and it took me you know made us stripped apart and then and then we came together when we were both adults yeah um i know your dad passed away a little bit ago i'm so sorry no yeah thanks um how do you think your perspective also has kind of changed on like your parents dynamic and what they were able to provide for you together even though they were separated as time has evolved like do you hold resentment do you understand how they what they did yeah i do not anymore i had resentment for a long time and going back to that like we that's what you weaponize you you weaponize resentment you're like oh this person fucked me up so i'm gonna fuck you up hurt people hurt people um but not anymore it's all love yeah it's all it's all good now i took i took a lot i took a lot from my mom and a lot from my dad let's talk about your mom because obviously you got to work with her on tell me lies which i remember i was a fan of her from sons of anarchy i fucking love that show great show um how old were you when that was being made like fifth grade sixth grade i was young yeah and your stepdad and your mom were both yeah working on that show interesting so maybe i saw that have you know yeah parents working together was a thing you know interesting you know did you ever watched the show i've seen parts of it yeah okay was that a good or bad time in your life it was great that's an interesting question no it was great i mean it was cool like that's that was the big family discussion for many years was that show yeah it's like if grace and i had a kid right they would be a they would know tell me lies intimately even if i hadn't seen it you know i know everything about that show when she decided to come on because you had the role first yeah what was your reaction to like did you want it to kind of be your own thing and not have your mom be involved at all was there like a totally there's a little kid thing where you're like no it's mine right but then i thought oh yeah it's fine no it's great i thought it was really full circle and um i thought she was i thought megan was kidding when she said they want to ask her i thought i was like oh that'd be hilarious and then they did and and then it worked out it worked out Okay, your mom plays your mom. Yeah. Your girlfriend plays your girlfriend on the show. How, and I'm sure you've been asked this before, but like I need to ask you it myself. Like how did you navigate not letting those two worlds of your reality to then the show get blurred together? You want to not let it blend, but I think it does. Just because I'm, like I didn't sign on to this. I don't do this job because I'm all there, like all together, you know, like I, I like that. You come, you come, you do make believe for your job. You're probably a little fucked up probably. And so you take on a little bit of everything. And, and it was hard. It was hard to, hard to not let the lines blur. Yeah. I do want to go back to something that you were talking about earlier in regard to your relationship to your father growing up. You mentioned how alcohol was and became a big part of your life with him and your relationship. Do you mind talking a little bit more about how that influenced and impacted you? Yeah, I think I think we all have coping mechanisms for how difficult all of this is and it's different for every person mine was thankfully more clear cut like i like i know a lot of the things that hold me but there's so many things that hold me back all the time but um it's so fast the things that can fucking like hold you back right like it's it can be substance it can be like people behaviors food um a lot whatever everyone's got their thing everyone's got a thing and i think focusing on what that is and discovering what that is is what what makes you progress like as a person in your career in your relationships like that that's what makes you grow um for you when you look back like you talk about fear and i can imagine i think when we have fear we have anxieties we can try to do things to avoid that like how did you find yourself leaning into unhealthy coping mechanisms to like avoid your pain or your fear well fear yeah fear's the fear is like the core fear and then and then and then anger is like a symptom and like you know drinking can be a symptom and uh behavior is a symptom so like it's but it starts with that like i'm not enough i won't be enough people are better than me i'll be left i'll be alone um i'm not good enough to be here or to be with this person that's those thoughts are like those those thoughts start everything and then everything else is like a i don know then you just start reacting how do you think you got to a place where numbing those feelings you eventually were like wait that's actually more unhealthy like by me doing i just got tired i get tired of running on that. It's like you don't it's exhausting to be unconscious. You don't even know it's exhausting. And thankfully I had a parent who my mom got her shit together. She did. She got her shit together a long time ago. And I got to see that you can get your shit together. So I had a really great example in my mom. And I want a lot of things. Like I just want a lot of things in this life. I want a lot of family things, a lot of career things. And if something's stopping you from getting those, you don't even mean it's that simple. If you're being stopped from getting those things and you're seeing signs that you're not getting those things, if you're missing your audition, if you're shitty on the phone, if you're reacting poorly, it's just like you just got to focus on it. You got to have that self-knowledge though. And you have to – consequences are what start pushing that into action. And if you don't have consequences, sometimes you can go on and on and on. That's what I was going to ask you. When you were going through maybe one of the darker times in your life and struggling and going through all these feelings of like, am I good enough? Am I not? And then leaning into unhealthy patterns because that would kind of numb the pain. Yeah. What were examples where you kind of had to face reality, whether it was people confronting you, maybe you lost relationships? Yeah, it's both. It's, it's, um, uh, you're subconsciously ruining everything. You just break shit. Um, right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's hard too, because like, depending on where you're at in your life, like, I feel like for social reasons, like it's so fucking confusing. if even if you're talking about like drinking like it's so confusing because it's such a social thing oh yeah and so it's like the fear of like am i not going to be fun anymore if i stop am i not going to be this anymore and it's like there's so much that we tell ourselves if we want to try to get better you almost go to the negatives first before like we know this is gonna actually make your life a lot healthier and happier um but it's so ingrained in culture that it's really hard to be like can i stop this should i go going on a date like if you've drank on every date and then you go on a date and you're not drinking like you feel like a alien and you feel like oh my god all my stuff is coming out and i'm not prepared for this and um and and this is also side note these things don't go away when you take a behavior out of your life the hole the god-sized hole is fucking there no matter what for most people i mean for all people for all people there's a there's a there's a thing that we're trying to fill with people and places and things and money That's a good point. We just are. It doesn't go anywhere. You just have to take out the thing that makes it destructive. Which is really fucking hard. Which is fucking hard. And it's just substituting vices, right? It's not like there's one good one and one bad one. It's just what's working for you. If you're taking it out in your relationship, you're going to hurt somebody. If you're taking it out with substances, you're going to hurt yourself. For you, once you were able to be like, okay, I am going to try to move forward in life and give myself a healthier lifestyle, let's say, what were some of the positives and negatives that you saw once you got that clarity of like, I need to shift my life, I need to change my actions to my own body and to myself? Everything, everything changed. like I want to say that there were external things that changed dramatically, but there weren't, but there were, well, there were, I mean, you, you get your, if you're clear, you can, you're just better prepared for life and you can succeed and blah, blah, blah. But also you just, it's here. You just feel less like you're in trouble all the time or you're going to, You have that ease. And that's what we all want is that ease. I just want to feel okay. Yeah. Yeah, you want to see your shit come out. Stop drinking. Yeah. You'll get to the real shit. Stop drinking. You'll feel great. And then that deep in the core shit comes out. And it's like, oh, yeah, that was there. I was just covering it up with whatever. How are you doing with the fears and the anxieties and all of that? I'm doing good. It's been a good long educational road. And I feel great. My life has changed. And I have a lot of love in my life. And I care about people. That's the big thing. I genuinely give a shit about how someone else is doing. which I didn't have when I was like younger and running on fucking Doritos and fear. Like I, I, you know, and that's the, that's the best thing to come out of it is like, cause all I want, all I want is to be like, like a worker among workers, like just fucking just, I want the life to be like calm and serene. And I think sometimes when people talk about a darkness in their life, the beauty of it is it also brings such a light because it's like it really forces you to go through a lot of fucking shit. But then you've been through a lot of fucking shit. I had to because if I if I didn't, then my shit would run the I would I wouldn't be working. I wouldn't be around people. I had to. That's that's what I'm learning. you can actually just face the fear it's amazing okay before we go i want to end with like a couple rapid fire okay What's the time you absolutely bombed an audition? All of them. So many of them. I've got like 150 of them. Okay. Other than you, which Tell Me Lies character is the most insufferable? Evan? That sounds like something Steven would say. Well, I love. No, no. But I just mean like factually based on the plot. And also him with Bree's mom and getting the mom drunk before seeing Bree. Right. i think he i think he fucks shit up again i think he i think he's actually evan like bad news yeah he's bad news oh wait insufferable the teacher oliver disgusting bad boy um what is the pettiest thing you've ever done after a breakup i disintegrated my instagram what is that even you disintegrated like i didn't just like delete but it was like delete delete forever destroy and I was like, yes, delete forever. Type in password, gone forever. To yours, not hers. To mine. And you just disappeared. I just ghosted. Because I was like, I didn't want to deal with seeing anything. I didn't want to deal with, I just, so I, did you ask destructive? What's the pettiest thing? Oh, petty. Oh, that's not really petty. That was more just like. Insane. But I had some good momentum going too. And this was, this was a long time ago and I just poof, had to start over. um okay what is the best gift you've ever gotten for grace oh i got her um i got her a i got her a little cartier last year oh ring bracelet necklace got a little cartier ring cute but i got i didn't know it was the wedding ring you got her the wedding ring one i didn't know she's like you're proposing i yeah it was so funny i was like i didn't know that this was oh like the wedding i didn't know oh jackson did she know yeah and she's like no it's a sick ring though you don't have to wear it as a wedding okay we just like have it on other other fingers okay that's cute cute um what do you think your two top love languages are the ones that i need are the ones that i give both give me both i love that you know that as a man also good job well i give acts of service okay huge time big time that's like how i show love i'll do this for you i'll do this for you and then i want to receive words affirmation affirmation i'm going to tell me how great i am great i tell you tell me you like me still do you remember the first big purchase you splurged on with your tell me lies paycheck i bought it i bought it i bought a car oh i didn't buy a yeah i bought a i bought it i needed a new car and i bought a new car what kind of car i bought a dodge durango that makes a lot of sense with the hemi very loud car you're obnoxious i'm obnoxious wait so you're the one driving that i'm like oh my god no but i'm not the guy who's like but can you explain why to the sound What do we need that for? Power. Power. No, no, I just love it. Men are so stupid. My dad was such a car guy. Okay. And I remember I showed him. I went to all these dealerships with my dad, and we picked that one. Cute. Yeah. Okay, okay. It's a great, loud car. I'm surprised you didn't hear it pull into your parking lot back there. I'm happy I didn't, because I would have roasted you at the very top of this show. I know, I know. um yes we're finally sadly done with tell me lies but where are we going to see you next like do you have projects that you're working on do you have things that you're gonna be doing yes i know you can't tell me but like you're gonna be acting obviously yeah okay yeah have you filmed other things i did film something else okay i filmed something after the last season and was Was that character so different than Steven? Opposite. How did you feel about that? It was awesome. Electric. It was electric. It was everything. It was great. Yeah, it was super fun. Okay. It was like very like natural, like bring yourself to it. Like, it was very like truthful and natural type of acting, which was very cool. So it was like, you could do that everywhere, but Tell Me Lies was very like a lot of precision and we're telling this story. And it was a very different, like artistic, very like different thing. And it was great. I think that's needed. I saw Grace on a red carpet being like, I think I need to play some like lighter roles from like Lucy and Amanda Knox. I was like, girl, you deserve to like get in the car. She's been in jail. She needs to go do some. She needs reprieve. Yes, she does. And she's the funniest fucking person ever. She's amazing. She's so funny. I am so happy I got to know you. Oh, yeah, you too. Because, again, like, I didn't know what to expect. I know. We've seen such a large character be built. And I agree. I can imagine you're like, loved that. Love what I did with that. But I'm excited for people to get to know Jackson. Yeah. Which I feel like we really did today. I think we got some good little slices. I think if anything, there's something very calming to have watched this traumatizing show and then have you kind of like close us out. Everyone's going to have watched it. They're going to wake up in the morning on Wednesday and they're going to be like, oh, my God, I'm about to tune in this little piece of shit. Oh, my God. He wrote off in the sunset. And then we're going to hear from you. You're going to be like, hey, guys, I'm Jackson. Life was hard. And I'm here and I'm just hoping to, you know, have a good career. yeah yeah that's that's what i hope that's what i hope i hope that too and i can feel they're gonna take that yeah good jackson thank you so much for coming on call her daddy for having this was really lovely i had a really good time me too thank you The End