SHROUD OF TURIN: Physical EVIDENCE for the Body of JESUS!? (ft. Dr. Jeremiah Johnston) | Live Free with Josh Howerton

A real guy died on a real cross for the real you, and if you really give him your life, he can really change it forever. I did my PhD on the resurrection. I've published 300,000 words on the resurrection. I was conditioned to be a skeptic on the shroud, and now I believe the shroud is authentic, Pastor Josh, because I'm not irrational. Well, hey, Live Free Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Point Church in Dallas, Texas, but the live free nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this. We want to invite you to take a simple next step and that is join us for church online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, Church Online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Point. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend. And now, enjoy the podcast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to episode number 69 of Live Free with Jeremiah Johnson. We are really excited. Very excited to be here, John. Come on, thank you, guys. So for people who are unaware of what's about to happen, I seriously think this is going to be the most interesting episode of Live Free we've ever done, and I'll explain why here in a second. We're going to go full Indiana Jones. Let's go. I love it. This is like Da Vinci Code meets Nicolas Cage National Treasure meets Indiana Jones. But without the heresy. That's right. Thank you. Without the overt Antichrist heresy. That's how it feels. That's right. That's right. Okay. So here's my lead in. And if you're listening, when I say this sentence, if you roll your eyes, I'm asking you to stay with me. We're getting ready to spend like an hour talking about the Shroud of Turin. Let's go. OK, so let me just set this up. I literally just saw this two days ago. I'm scrolling X and there's a new I think it was Newsweek. They do this article on like, what did Jesus really look like? And they do this every Easter. And it looks like a Neanderthal. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. In seventh grade. Yeah. And so here's the question. What if we actually already know what Jesus looked like because of what you're about to walk us through? Bro, not only that, Jesus took the first selfie. We're about to check it out. My 15-year-old daughter will be delighted. And it was powerful. It was a powerful selfie. I'm very excited. Had a flash on it? Yes. Big time flash. It was a flash on it. Yeah, there you go. Okay, so let me set this up, and then honestly, I want you to do the talking. So this is a special pre-Easter episode that I think is going to boost, encourage people's faith in the resurrection significantly. One thousand percent. Okay, so let me set up why you're here and why I would never have had you come talk about this 12 months ago. So no joke, this is a true story, dude. So last Easter, leading up to Easter, I'm getting ready to just sort of debrief. It was a Sunday night, I finished preaching. I was like, I'm going to listen to a podcast. a thumbnail pops up for me of you on the Michael Knowles show, and it was about the Shroud of Turin. And no joke, dude, we'll talk about this in a second. I'm team Protestant. So I'm like, oh, man, relics. That's like a Catholic thing. I'm super skeptical. And I see the thumbnail, and I'm like, who hoodwinked Knowles? That's seriously what I thought. So then I click it, and I'm like, what crackpot hoodwinked Knowles? You start talking. And, dude, no joke, I'm 20, 30 minutes in, and I'm like, holy crap, this guy, there may be something to this. So special pre-Easter episode of Live Free, Bishop Jeremiah. I'm not a bishop, and I'm not a Catholic. Let's just start right here, okay? Because Live Free is a bunch of normal dudes. Let's start right here. Quick introduction for people who have no idea what we're talking about. What's the Shroud of Turin? The Shroud of Turin is believed to be the actual burial cloth that Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus used to wrap the crucified, brutalized, dead corpse of Jesus in on Friday, April 3rd, AD 33. Whoa, that was very specific. Wow. Actually, can I click on something? Yeah. Friday, April 3rd, AD 33. Nissan 14. How are you getting that specific date? It's amazing. Well, it's because the resurrection and the crucifixion of Jesus is the best established fact of the ancient world. If we cannot believe that Jesus died by Roman crucifixion on Friday, April 3rd, AD 33, based on the lunar calendar, Nisan 14, 3,500 years the Jews always celebrated Passover at the time the Torah said they should, based on the two opportunities that Nisan 14 could have occurred during Pontius Pilate's reign, 26 to 36 AD. We have two options, 80-30, 80-33. Say that last sentence again. All right. So we know the dates of Pontius Pilate's reign. I know that from biblical party. 26 to 36 A.D. And you said there's only two opportunities. There's only two times the lunar calendar aligns with Passover on that Friday that Jesus could have possibly been crucified during his ministry. And there's two great options, actually. Friday, April 7, 80-30. But I'm more convinced that it's Friday, April 3, 80-33 for a variety of reasons that I get into. But without a doubt, it's the best. Do you talk about that in your book? I do. And so it's the best. But the point is, if we can't believe that Jesus died on that Friday and rose again on Sunday, April 5th, which, by the way, is this Sunday, April 5th. Isn't that ironic? Let's go. Wow. So April 5th, AD 33 is the day of the resurrection. We know from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory that sunrise was 543 a.m. on that morning. We could go back in time. I know the women when the women go to the tomb, they're going there early. They're following Jewish burial traditions. They're going to continue spicing the body. We'll get into why they're doing that. And they're astonished because the tomb is empty and they run to tell everybody about it. And that's when we have this amazing sprint. I love that the Bible talks smack. I love that. John wants you to know that he's much faster than he takes two inerrant verses. And God's word to say when the guy finally got there, we went into the tomb. and they see, if you follow the chronology in John 20, this is where the Bible is so awesome. I've read it a hundred times. I'm a historical Jesus scholar, but I was humbled. I felt like Nicodemus when Jesus looks at him and said, you're the teacher of Israel and you haven't seen this. You don't know these things. I did my PhD on the resurrection. I've published 300,000 words on the resurrection. I was a complete, I was conditioned to be a skeptic on the shroud. So I feel like the intro, I'm just mirroring you because I'm chuckling to myself. I've been through all of those things. And now I believe the shroud is authentic, Pastor Josh, because I'm not irrational. OK, because I'm not irrational. So, all right, to leave this in, because you're going to I want you to get some of this stuff that when I heard it for the first time, legitimate. I'm upstairs in my little hangout room. Everyone's about to get shroud pill. Dude, it's insane. We're going to take the red pill. Here's what we're going to do. Let me for people who are listening. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to let Doc Jeremiah do his thing. and then what I'm going to do, and he told me before the podcast not to tell him what objections I'm going to throw at him. So you're going to do your thing. These are all AI anyways, I know. Stop, stop. I had some help from a researcher also. So I'm going to throw at you the strongest objections to the legitimacy of this thing. Let's see what you do. So there are – talk about real quick for people who are unfamiliar. We actually have Bible verses about the burial cloths. reference those real quick so people know what you're about to do. So what we're doing here is not anti-biblical. It's in the Bible. It's fascinating to me that all four Gospels, we have 89 chapters in the Gospels, all four Gospels lead up. One-third of those 89 chapters are about what happened that Easter weekend. And they all mention the evidential detail that there were burial cloths. Matthew, Mark, and Luke use the term athonia, which is exactly what's behind me right now, what people are looking at, a fine linen burial cloth, a herringbone weave. John's gospel comes along and gives us two other details. It talks about the sudarium, which is the face cloth that the disciples find in the corner of the tomb. That's the one he folded. Right. And then we also hear the strips of linen, and that, excuse me, is athonia. Sindan is what's in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Let me be clear. Sindan is Matthew, Mark, and Luke. John is athonia and sudarium. So we have three different terms for burial used in the Gospels. All four Gospels make a very specific point that chronologically speaking, when John saw the linen cloths lying there, he saw and believed. So that's my hope for the payoff of the broadcast today. You mean like John, did he not believe before that? Oh, no, he was a follower of Jesus. But when he saw the shroud, he really believed. So that's the payoff of this broadcast. Watching it all the way through is your faith is going to be strengthened and you're going to have a measurable strength. You're going to have a 1 Corinthians 15, 57, 58 experience based on this broadcast. I promise you. Okay. All right. So let's get into it. It's biblical. All right. What am I looking at? Okay. And why do you think this thing's legit? I think it's legit because, first off, the Shroud of Turin, I was utterly skeptical of it until I actually bothered to get past the sound bites and look at the substance. So I had heard about this flash. My doctor father, Craig Evans, who's probably the finest Jesus scholar in the English speaking world, 700 publications on Jesus. He begins to tell me about the shroud. And he's like, Jeremiah, we can't quantify the amount of power. You should really look into this. Then my pastor, Jack Graham, on a Friday morning. We love him. He's the OG. He tells me on a Friday morning men's Bible study after I'd been kind of tinkering with the shroud stuff a little bit. And he said, well, get up and just share what you're learning. And guys, then I was like, there's video of this. So I was like, no, I'm not going to stake my academic reputation on this, but let me just share what I'm learning. But here's something for all the dudes watching. I'm looking out there at the time of my son, Justin. I have four boys, one daughter. Justin, my son, who to get him to talk about football or Xbox or girls for anything more than one sentence is an impossibility. He is locked in spiritually. OK. And I'm just sharing about the resurrection and all the facts of the shroud. And I'm watching my this is a 630 a.m. Bible study. I'm watching my 11-year-old son, and it is impacting him. And I was like, brother, I will go all over the world to research this if it gets you excited about your faith. Good job, Dad. So then I'm in Jerusalem. I'm filming a series, and I've been in more tombs than anyone you've ever met. In fact, I was laughing today because I was in a tomb in Emmaus, and the producers, I hope I don't mess the audio, they do this. And I thought, what are you clapping for? I'm like, oh, we're scaring the snakes away. You need to do this in one take. And that was at the Emmaus tomb. Hi, Indiana Jones. So I've been in the tombs. I'm filming. I had a day off, and I go to the Athonia Museum, and I see some of the show and tell. I'm about to show your audience and you two, Carlos. By the way, we don't know what's coming, so I'm very excited. Bro, it takes my breath away. No one's there, and it turns out that the Holy Spirit is really good at his job, and it literally takes my breath away. And I have an experience with the Lord that it's now the best evangelism. And what we're looking at behind me is the best evangelism discipleship tool I have ever used and seen in my life. So we're looking at a burial cloth. We're looking at, and this is typical, we have hundreds of burial cloths from the land of Jesus, which is Jerusalem. We even have a burial shroud from the tomb of the shroud. People can search this up. There were Bible deniers that said that the Bible was false because Hansen's disease wasn't around in the time of Jesus. Well, guess what? The tomb of the shroud, it was so airtight that when we discovered it 20 years ago, it actually has flesh on it, hair on it, and it has Hansen's disease on it. And it's dated from the time of Jesus, showing that there really was leprosy. You said the tomb of the shroud that we discovered 20 years ago. What is that? That's just another shroud tomb. We have so many shrouds. Oh, a different shroud. Yeah, it's a different one. I'm just making the point that we have lots of shrouds. We still find those? We still find them. And this one actually had leprosy on it, proving that Jesus really did. This one? No, the one, the tomb of the shroud. Oh, God. I'm just giving the example. We have Shrouds at Masada where you've been, lots of Shrouds at Masada. And so what's unique about the Shroud of Turin is that it has an image of a brutalized crucified man that has complete correspondence with the crucifixion narratives that are embedded in the Gospels. Walk me through it. And by the way, this is it. This is it. This is the exact one. This is a one. Well, the exact one is in a reliquary and turn. But this one comes from Sarah from my friend, Barry Walsh. She's now deceased. He literally did the TED talk on the shroud. So we acquired based on our really good friendship. I acquired this from his organization and now we use this as this tool. And so what you're looking at, that's 14 feet wide by about three feet, seven inches. And this is it matches. It's it's a one to one scale and it matches. No one else was crucified in the Roman Empire the way Jesus is. This is the crazy thing, the blood type that's on it. Two Jewish hematologists studied the blood, Helen and Adler. They're Jews. They don't have a theological axe to grind. It's type AB blood. It's human blood. And the reason the blood is still red 2,000 years ago is because this blood has been traumatized. It's from a traumatized individual that when you're experiencing torment and trauma, your red blood cells break down and create extra bilirubin. They secrete it, and that's what's kept the blood red all of these years. And there's blood all over the shroud. Type AB blood is Semitic blood. Less than 6% of the world's population has it. If there was ever a priestly line of blood, it'd be type AB blood. So it's human blood. It's not animal blood. It's blood from a traumatized person. I read a recent hematological report. The blood itself has high levels of ferritin in it, which means the crucified man was experiencing organ failure, kidney failure. We believe he lost one third of his blood volume during the flogging and its high level of creatinine. He was dying. So, again, if you were going to post this just from the blood samples that were in the fibers, these are published in academic journals. So here's the bottom line. 102 academic disciplines have studied the shroud. 600,000 hours of scientific research. And I believe the shroud is authentic based on their research because I'm not irrational. They all cannot explain how there's an image in the shroud. So the walks like a duck quacks like a duck. It might be a duck. So. All right. So, like, you know, you've kind of dipped your toe in the water here. Walk me through everything that's here. OK. That makes compelling. Yeah. That makes people go do that. That may have been the that is that's the burial shroud of Jesus. Well, and then what's the theory on how the image got on there? All this stuff. Well, and also I want to pull up, I have a 13-second video from C.S. Lewis's bedroom. I had lived in Oxford, did my doctorate there, had been to the kilns numerous times, and I took my pastor there recently. And I had never, because again, I didn't care about the shroud. So maybe I saw it, maybe I couldn't care less at the time. Well, during all of this phase of research, we literally go in to C.S. Lewis's bedroom, and we have a Lewis scholar who is guiding us, and they take us into C.S. Lewis's bedroom. And he had a fire – it's a very modest bedroom, by the way, but he had a fireplace. And above the mantle of the fireplace is the picture of the man of the shroud. And I asked the question. I said, tell me about this because, I mean, Lewis is no Catholic, right? And think about it. He dies in the 1960s. He has on Ray's photo, which is 1931, I think, that the next that was like high res for its time in the 1930s. And she said, oh, yeah. In fact, if we have the video, it'd be cool to pull it up. This is 13. This is this is 13 seconds. This is me. She this is a C.S. Lewis scholar. We're in his bedroom right now. You guys, he says that I literally pulled out my phone. It's like, wait a minute. You got to say that again. Wait, is that the wardrobe? Probably. So Lewis kept an image of the Shroud of Turin above his mantelpiece as a reminder that our God had a face of the incarnation. Wow. Here it is. We're in his bedroom right now. Lewis kept, yes, Lewis, an image of the Shroud so every morning his feet hit the ground he knew our God has a face. Jeremiah, for people watching this, they'll be like, well, that photo doesn't look like this photo. Can you explain that for people? So in 1898, you guys, photography is invented in the 1840s. It's not there's no professional photography in 1898. A Christian man by the name of Seconda Pia decides he wants to take a picture of the shroud. We'd always known there was an image on it throughout church history. But, dude, something happened in the darkroom. So this is before cellulary film. This is before the days we could take pictures on our phones. I've seen the actual camera in turn. It looks like a dorm fridge. It's massive. Glass plates. OK, the exposures took 14 minutes and 20 minutes each. There was no electricity. I've been in the St. Giovanni Cathedral. That's the St. John Cathedral where the shroud is to this day. He builds a scaffolding, takes a picture, goes in the dark room. In the dark room, he sees the image of Jesus's face, which he believes he's the first human being looking at the face of Jesus since the apostolic era. and never more appropriately says, oh, my God. Yep. And then literally, literally, oh, my God. And then he develops it. He's immediately accused of being a fraudster, a hoaxster. And I've seen the actual photo. And that's what's crazy is the photo negative is actually the photo positive. When you take a picture of the shroud, when you invert your phone camera, you see it in all of its rich and amazing detail. And we actually have, I can show you on our slides here, we actually have an image of it. So this is what we have behind us. And then in the dark room, you see on the right, on the right is actually the photo positive. The negative is the photo positive. And this is where all of the details come out in striking fashion. So start walking me through, because, dude, I'm a dumb Kentucky kid. It just looks like a bunch of triangles and lines. What am I looking at? That's a great question. What makes us go, this is Jesus. So what makes us go this is Jesus is the image itself corresponds with all the ways in which we know Jesus was crucified. We see a man who has been crucified and pierced with actual nails in the right spot through his wrists, not through his palms of his hands. That's medieval Christian art that messed us all up. Well, I can see on the right. That's like blood. You can see the wrist crossed. Yes, literally. I mean, I don't want to get too technical, but even the way the blood is flowing, arterial and venous blood flow matches how he died on the cross. So the way the blood is flowing on his arms is the way in which it should if you were actually crucified. There's blood at the bottom and then behind me as well where the feet are crucified through the calcaneus, literally right through the heel bones. And that matches, again, what we have of another Yehuhanan, poor soul, crucified under Pontius Pilate. We actually have his heel bone and the nail going through it in the Israel Antiquities Museum. So all of this is exactly how the Romans killed and executed non-citizens in the first century, especially in the Syrian province of Jerusalem. Keep going, though. We have a side wound. So the triangles itself, let's go to the next slide, too, if we can. The triangles itself. So I want you to see this. The triangles are just patches. The shroud has amazingly survived five different fires. There's scorch marks on it. There's water stains all over it. So you have to deal with two things. You have to deal with all the contact marks on the shroud. But then you actually see the image, which we'll get to this selfie. But I want you to see the side wound, which if we go back to the vertical image, if we can, I want to show Pastor Josh and Carlos. So look at that. Do you see the left side? Right next to the triangle, the inner triangle on the upper left, there is a fluorescent, almost figure eight. Do you see that? Yeah, I do. Wait, wait. To the right of the triangle. Of the inner triangle. Yep. On the upper. Upper torso of Jesus. On the left side? Yep. Yeah, okay, I do see that. So it's the left side. You can see that. And what is that? That is the side wound through rib five and six. Jesus is crucified. Holy cow. Hold this. What is this guy? This is a replica that we had made. It's not an artifact. It's an actual replica of the spear that would have pierced Jesus through rib five and six. And guess what? It matches with one to one correspondence. Why does the man of the shroud have a piercing through rib five and six? That blood is postmortem blood on the shroud. How do you know that? The hematologist published it. Really? That blood is different than all the other blood on the shroud. John's gospel says blood and water comes out. So serum albumin I probably saying it wrong has already separated because I not pretending to be a hematologist has already separated from the blood in that spot alone And that blood different than anything else Yeah because it post blood Okay Jeremiah was it common I know, obviously, Jesus was stabbed on the side. That was not a common practice. Crucifixion was common. That's right. Okay, so this was unique for Jesus. This is unique for Jesus, which, again, you start looking at the probabilities. There's no broken bones on the man of the shroud. Now, I want to be careful. He has a separated septum. He definitely has a broken nose, but no bones broke. That's just simply like cartilage. So no broken bones on the man that shrugged either. Which, by the way, for listeners, that was prophesied. Exactly. That was the prophecy that took place. So let's keep going, you guys. More show and tell. Can we just keep this going? These are heavy, by the way. Yes. What's this guy? Hold this. All right. You've got an – this took my breath away. I think it's John 19.1, but I know it's John 19. And Pilate had Jesus flogged. And pastors, we go right by that verse so quickly, and it's like we didn't even read it. Jesus is flogged with that rawhide. And remember, the Jews had a rule, 40 lashes minus one. Rome had no such rule. And I am an expert in execution, so I know how dastardly. I mean, these guys would often be drunk. Poor Antigonus, who we have, remains from in Jerusalem. He was crucified and then decapitated. And they were so drunk, they got the chops wrong on his head a few times. So we actually have evidence. And the Bible says that Jesus is flogged, that Pontius Pilate has him flogged. And do you see these barbells? We've actually counted up the amount of shredding, the amount of lashes. There's 372 lashes on the man of the show, front and back, 372 total. But keep in mind, Pastor Josh, we don't have the side. We don't have the lateral sides. because when Jesus resurrects, it's an image of the moment. He literally passed. We'll get to this through the shroud. We don't have the side angles. And so we can estimate 700 of these hit the man's body. And that's where he loses one third of his blood volume. And I want you to see the how short that is. There is a really demonic intimacy to how Jesus is tortured. And we know there were two. There were two. One was hit. The other one was cocking back to fire each time. Then they turn him around. There's gashes. Do you know that what you just said from the shroud or from historical sources? Both. They correspond. So but what I had never seen before was an actual this is a phlegm. This is a Roman whip called a phlegm. So that match is being flogged. And we know that he endures that most died. Sixty percent of the criminals just died at that point. So the strength, the man. What I like about Jesus, he's a man's man. He's 5'10 to 5'11, weighs 170 to 180 pounds. This is a very physically fit man. A lot of walking. A lot of walking, probably 20,000 miles in his ministry, probably, walking. If you count all the times he went to Jerusalem. But it doesn't end there. So Jesus is flogged, and all of this matches. All we're doing is we're comparing. We're almost doing a where's Waldo right now of, okay, what does the Bible say and what do we see signature on the shroud? There's another thing that blew my mind. You already have your mind blown. I'm ready, man. Max Fry, a criminologist, literally studied all of the pollen on the shroud. It's pollen season. It's Passover, right? It's Easter time. We all have pollen on our vehicles, especially here in Texas. And he studied the pollen samples. 38 of the 58 pollen spores on the shroud only bloom in Jerusalem in springtime. What? The other 20. Are you kidding me? Dude, truth is stranger than fiction. So again, you start adding up. Say that one more time. 38 of the 58 pollen spores on the shroud that Max Fry, a criminologist, studied and has a whole respected career as a criminologist. spent five years of his life studying the pollen, gave five years of his life. They only bloom in springtime in the land of Israel. So if you're a hoaxer, how would you know that? If you're a hoaxer, how would you know type AB blood? You would have to torture and crucify a Semitic man and then do it exactly how the Bible says. Then you'd have to rub the shroud through Jerusalem on Easter weekend at the time that all these plants are growing. You're starting to see why the evidence, the most explanatory power shows that it is Jesus's grave clothes. And we have the moment of resurrection. We actually may have scientific proof of the moment of Jesus's resurrection left on the shroud. Holy cow. Okay. Is there, I got questions. Is there anything else you're like, hey, man, I want to call attention to this. We're just getting started here. Keep going, dude. There's more. There's more. Hold this. Very few people have held this. this is no replica this we just acquired and this is an actual first century crucifixion now i'm not saying it's the one used on jesus let me be very clear but this was used to crucify enemies of rome slaves non-citizens in the syrian province do you see how it's bent carlos and josh yeah What I had to learn through research was the nails were far more valuable than the crucified victims. They would use the nails again and again and again. Do you know why it's bent? I'm assuming for multiple use. Multiple use, but not only multiple use. Oftentimes, they would want to minimize movement but maximize torment. And they would adjust the nails of the crucified victims while they were dying and being crucified. Can you imagine the agony? And so over time, this nail has been bent from usage, but also from torturing. And Colossians 2.14, I love this, you guys. Paul says that Jesus took all of our indebtedness, all the debt we could never pay back, and he nailed it to the cross. So we don't bear that shame anymore. So I can bring all the faith lessons in with these. And what do we see on the shroud? we see four piercings on the shroud, two in the wrist, two in the heel bones. And that's exactly what you're holding in your hand. So this is an authentic? That is a first century crucifixion nail. First century crucifixion nail from Rome. From Jerusalem. From Jerusalem. And it is a square shaft, so without a doubt it's first century. And it matches another. Anyone can look this up. You can pull up the crucified victim called Yehohanan, John, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate. We actually have his heel bone. We have an olive wood, actually, washer. These guys were experts. Yeah, can you imagine? Through the wrist. And then for anyone out there who's like, well, the Bible says hands. It's all the same Greek word, forearm, hands. It's just like the NBA. Yeah, literally. If you get them on the wrist, it's a hand. Exactly. Same thing. Thank you. Great analogy. So it matches, though, the heel bone crucifixion now that we have in the Israel Antiquities Museum, six inches long. And just imagine that. Jeez. That's a little overwhelming. I didn't know you had that. And it's, yeah, it is overwhelming and it should be. But guys, we can't stop there. What else do we see on the shroud? There are 30 to 50 puncture wounds on the head, the scalp, the back of the head. Can you see those up there? Yes, you can. In fact, we have a slide that's really clear. That guy? Yeah, pull that one up. That's helpful. And then we actually have one with red where I've actually made it red. But this is this all of the blood fluoresces, which is fascinating to me. It actually fluoresces. And so what you're looking at is all of the blood on the forehead. There's blood, you know, literally in his hair, all over his face. That's the broken nose. This is like a rendering. That's a rendering of it. And so that's based on the shroud, based on the shroud and the sudarium, the face cloth. And so that's perfect. So that one is amazing to me. Is it all right if I look back here? Pretty forced, dude. Right here. I'm going to invert my phone to show you guys this. Like literally right there. Yeah. So let me do something right now. And any one of you can do this. If you have an Android, go watch another podcast. But if you have a – There's other churches for you. That's right. Lake Point's not one at all. If you have an Android, it's color inversion for Android, but I don't have an Android. I'm going to do settings. You guys do this with me. All right. So what do I go to? Very appropriate. Just settings. Settings. All right. And I have the update, so I'm just going to type classic invert in general. Okay? Do you see that? Just under search? Yeah, under search. Classic. Classic invert. Invert. And it'll bring it up, and then just press that button, and your camera will do that, or your phone will do that. Yeah. Turn it on. Right there. Classic invert. Turn it on. Okay. Okay. Now open your camera. All right. Look at the shroud. Oh, wow. And see how it pops. But what I wanted to point out was the back of the head. What the heck? What the heck? I had no idea it did this. That's amazing. Wow. Holy cow. Wait, can they see this? Can we get this on camera somehow? Yeah, there you go. You can see it. Carlos, look at you. You can see it. Hey. This is what Seconda Pia sees in the dark room and says, oh, my God. But what I want you to look at, guys, is the back of the head, all the blood on the back of the head. That's the back of the head. This is the back. Yep, that's the front. Because remember, it covers him like a pita. It's cold. That's right. He's laid, and then it's laid over him. I see it. I see it, Jeremiah. There is blood all over the head. Wow. So if Jesus was wearing a wreath of thorns or a sweatband of thorns, you would not expect to see. There's more blood on his head, perhaps, than anywhere else, which is shocking to me. we think actually when he was flogged they probably blinded one of his eyes because one of the eyes is literally I had a dentist email me the other day claiming you can even see his teeth which is fascinating I haven't looked into that yet somebody probably should but this is so the let's follow the chronology since it's Easter weekend Jesus is brought before Pilate Pilate has him flogged that's not enough and then he they fashion a crown of thorns and they put it on his head now I have again a PhD in these things and I have never seen a crown of thorns until three years ago in Jerusalem. I brought one to show you guys. Oh, come on. This is a replica. Wow. This, when I was speaking at the World Economic Forum on the Shroud, not lying. If I'm lying, I'm dying. My lips to God's ears. I'm speaking and I have blood all over my hand. I was wondering why everyone was looking at me. Well, the replica I have had pierced my hand. Really? Yeah. So, I mean, this is just a replica. Wow. Wow. Okay. Oh, it looks heavy. That is a helmet of thorns, friends. This is what. That is what they would have fashioned, and that is 30 to 50 puncture marks that we see on the crucified man of the shroud, and that's how he received those. They would have fashioned that and rammed it on his head and then brought him before the crowd, and that's where Pontius Pilate in Latin we would have heard et cho homo, behold the man. And if I'm really being honest, all of us would have yelled crucify him at that point. No one would be saved this man. We would be in that crowd yelling crucify this man. Jeremiah, is there any other historical source that portrays the crown of thorns like this? Because I know historically people picture more like a wreath. And that all comes out of medieval Christian art. Like the effeminate Jesus, the gay looking Jesus, the Jesus with no beer, that all comes out of medieval Christian art. Not a Jewish man who was killed like we see in the shroud, which we'll look at some images in a minute. But here's the faith lesson. All of us wonder sometimes if God really loves us. And we can get so desensitized to the cross. Romans 5.8 is what the Holy Spirit, when I saw this for the first time, but God demonstrated his love for you and me. And it's in the continuous. It's one of the two places in the New Testament God keeps demonstrating his love for us and that when we were sinners, he sent his best to die for us. Here's what I would say, too. Some people wonder why would Jesus wear a crown of thorns? They want to humiliate the man. He's claiming to be king of the Jews. They will humiliate him in every way. Genesis also says that when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, a curse fell on humanity. And because of our sin, creation was filled with thorns and thistles in Genesis 3. And then so thorns became a sign of judgment. And so at the cross, what we see is that that judgment was carried literally on Jesus's head. And so what that means is at the cross, our curse became Jesus's crown. And so he willingly took the thorns on him. And when I'm when I'm seeing this, man, I'm just reminded that what the curse broke, Jesus can restore. Come on, man. Well, he does that. And I'm thinking of the fact I have four sons and I wouldn't give my four sons for anyone. And God knows me like no one else. He knows what a sinner I am. And he sent his best for me. He didn't send his worst. That's right. He sent his best. And so anytime I doubt if God loves me today, I think of these thorns and God is demonstrating it even now while people are watching this podcast. That's why people need to share this with somebody who's hurting right now. Wow. All right. Keep going. Keep walking us through this guy. It's a lot to take in, man. It's a lot to take in. So then Jesus is crucified. He can't make it to the cross, as we know. So he's brutalized so bad. And one thing, I love The Passion of the Christ, the film, but one thing that gets wrong is they show Jesus carrying the entire cross. There's no way any man could carry that. So he just carries what's called the patibulum, the cross beam. And the crazy thing is, beyond the abrasion, beyond the lashes on the back, we actually have a diagonal right, top right to left abrasion. From him top of the right shoulder down to the left, literally the same abrasion marks from him carrying his cross. That's visible. On the shroud. Wow. Yes. And. Jeez. I remember when I was on Piers Morgan, he was trying to catch me in a question that a lot of maybe you're going to ask it. His body anatomically is all messed up. Why is why are his arms so long? And man, Psalm 22 is just washing over me right now. he said, my bones are out of joint. David says that prophetically. And I think it's at that point when he's carrying the cross that his shoulders are separated, even before he's nailed to the cross, because he can't handle it anymore. You, I'll just go ahead and say it. You did beat me to the punch. Okay. So one of the things I was going to throw at you, I'm just going to read it. And if there's anything you missed, just say, here's one of the objections. is people say, man, there's artistic and anatomical issues. I'm going to read it. The image reflects characteristics more consistent with an artistic creation than a real burial imprint. It doesn't look like a man wrapped in cloth would actually look. And the guy has really long arms, fingers, especially his right arm and hand. They literally, you're looking at, he does. I agree. It's because his shoulders have been pulled out of joints. And what you're saying is, hey, I agree. We have Bible verses for that. Absolutely. Wow. Psalm 22. Wow. And I gave my back to those. Literally, we see here in Isaiah. And then it doesn't stop there because this is why what you're doing this weekend at Lake Point, everyone needs to be here. We can get so desensitized to Easter. And I want to show you something else. not only would we have yelled crucify him i'm convinced too many believers are way too desensitized to what jesus the price he paid i tell people all the time now that the shroud is an itemized receipt of how much jesus loves you you think about all the financial terms that are used in the new testament we've been bought we've been ransomed we've been rescued we've been paid for. What is the last thing Jesus says, a CPA term, to tell us I paid in full? That was literally a term of it was a receipt had been given. And let me tell you, I'm bringing the receipts on the broadcast today because I want you to hold this. I don't know what this is. Look closely and tell me what if they resemble. These look like little dice for a game. That's exactly what you're holding. And those are not replicas. Those are actual Roman dice made of bone. Made of bone? Bone, not human bone, animal bones. And notice you can even see the numbers. They're from Jerusalem in the first century. I'm not saying these are the actual dice that were used, but Isaiah 53 and other passages said they divided, they cast lots, they gambled for my clothing. And that is exactly what you're holding. You are holding Roman dice from Jerusalem. I just got these in the first century. My son, Jax, was playing. One of my triplets was playing with him. And we're in the drive-through of Cain's. And he's like, Dad, these stink. I was like, son, they're 2,000 years old. They're made from bone. That's a dead thing. It's like, yes, they do stink. And Matthew's got, well, all four Gospels tell us that while the author of life is dying right in front of them, they're too busy gambling for his clothes. So let's make sure that our hearts are not desensitized to the cross. Wow. All right. Jeremiah, one more thing, because hold on, I got to go back to this one, if that's okay. Please. Mr. Josh. So, because you mentioned, you know, because everybody thinks this is like really long. Yeah. It would imply that the, you said there were two guards hitting Jesus. Yes. It would imply that every single time that the guards were hitting Jesus in the back, or I'm assuming anywhere, there would be sprinkling of the blood on his enemies. All over him. Yes. It would have splashed all over him. And so, man, like, you know, just, you know, 1 Peter 1, verse 2 says, According to the foreknowledge of God the Father and the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for the sprinkling with his blood, may grace and peace be multiplied to you. It's as if, man, Jesus' enemies are hitting Jesus, and yet the response of Jesus in return is his blood sprinkling over them. In the same way, the Bible says that you and I were enemies of God, and because of Christ, we've been reconciled, because of the sprinkling of his blood over us. Man, that's a picture of what happens with us. Wow. At the cross. Wow. At the cross. Hallelujah. Wow. Okay. You want to keep going here? I want to answer. There was another part of your question that I need to crush real quick. What was the other part of your question? So anatomical and then. The image reflects characteristics more consistent with an artistic creation than a real burial imprint. I have to kill this for a minute. So in 1978, 33 scientists, STERP, Shroud of Turin Research Project, get permission, not from the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church did not have ownership of the Shroud until the 1980s. That was something I had to get through. I thought this was some Catholic relic for 2,000 years. And I get an allergic reaction to Catholic relics. Yeah, we're Protestants. We're out on Catholic relics. I got 13,000 negative comments for saying that on Tucker, so I'm ready for all of them. I do, because I'm a historian. I saw the three wise men in the cathedral at Colne. Give me Thomas's pinky. No, this is an artifact because we can actually study it and test it with the sciences. So the STIRP team took several years to publish their findings. And what did they prove? This is the first time I've used the word prove. Science proved there is no pigment. There is no dye. There is no paint. there is no color and they were inconclusive about how there is an image in the shroud so actually i want to get to this so tell me like all right that's the question so if it's not dye or what's your theory on how the how did the image even get on this shroud this is where i got shroud red pilled this is where i became a shroud let's go come on well hey live free nation easter at lake point is coming and we would love to celebrate with you so no matter where you're tuning in from, we would love for you to come and join us April 3rd through 5th for a powerful and uplifting service as we celebrate the life-changing truth that Jesus defeated the grave. Hey, this is a moment for the whole family to come and experience hope purpose and the story that still changes lives today across all of our eight campuses in the DFW area Come hang out and let gather to explore who Jesus is and why his story still matters. Also, if you come and visit us for the very first time and you tell us you're coming from the podcast, we would love to hook you up with some live free merch. Just find us in our first time guest tent and let us know. Hey, for service times and details, text the word Eastern to 20411. And we will see you there. The best scientists in the world. And let me be clear, I've met with many of these scientists. I'm talking about weapons scientists. I'm talking about rocket scientists. I met one when we were doing our tour event in Southern California from the Jet Propulsion Lab. He's like, oh yeah, everything you said is accurate. He was working on the Mars Project. And these are scientists, Eric Jumper, John Jackson, physicists who are at Los Alamos, Sandia Laboratories. They work on atom bombs. They get the weekend with the shroud, and they prove that there's literally no paint, no dye, no brush marks. They cannot understand how there is an image in the shroud. The best scientists in the world cannot explain it. So I fly to Turin, Italy, and I meet with a guy named Paolo de Lazaro. He is a physicist, and he works at Aenea Laboratories. Anyone can look this up. He spends another five years of his life studying how do you change with no pigment, paint, dye or brush marks? How do you change a a made of flax, essentially a linen shroud? So they they literally grew a shroud and they beamed their laser for five years at it. And they were finally able to basically change the coloring of an and to leave a mark with that, because otherwise you would scorch it if it's too hot. It's too powerful to just burn it up. Right. They were able to basically change the size of a postage stamp, not 14 feet behind us. And he publishes, and this went viral when I posted that on my social, 34 billion watts of energy traveling at one 40th of a billionth of a second to leave an image on the shroud is what Paulo de Lazaro said. Light. So we're talking about energy, cold energy, and this is the moment of resurrection. So the shroud is not a death cloth. It's a resurrection cloth. So I'm meeting with Paulo, and I'm like, so are you saying it's Jesus? He's like, well, of course. 34 billion watts of energy traveling at 1 40th of a billionth of a second. Reminds me of all these passages. Because think about it. Jesus, every time he manifests himself in the New Testament, he manifests himself as brilliant lights. The new heaven and the new earth someday will have no need for the sun. That's significant. I just want to point that out for listeners. So, yeah, trace that real quick. You got transfiguration. His face was changed, became like lightning. Obviously, yep, yep. You got revelation. Yep, but you have Paul, and I have filmed on Roman roads at noon day, okay, in the land of Israel, curbed. They're first century roads. It's hot. I'm sweating. Paul says that he has an experience of seeing the resurrected Christ, and if you follow the book of Acts, he says it was brighter than the noon day sun. Is anyone getting chills yet? So what we have in this residue, what we have is this signature on the shroud of the moment of Jesus's resurrection that is so powerful, it literally left a selfie mark on it. This is Jesus's selfie. So the theory is that in the same way that at the transfiguration, his face became like lightning. Hey, upon resurrection, that same light of glory manifested itself and left that. And it pushed a 2,750-pound tomb out of the way. Gracious. But let me show you. This is animated. Okay, so play this for a minute. I want you to see. This is a shroud. Now hit play. Okay. Boom. Wow. That is what happened. That's slow motion. So Jesus didn't stand up like Lazarus and take his grave clothes off. His body emanated at the moment of resurrection through the shroud. What makes you say that? There it is. And by emanated, Jeremiah, you mean? Literally physically. Well, because Jesus would appear in rooms and then disappear. He walks through the door. His body has new capabilities, as ours will, in the resurrection. It is not, it's not, this world does not have any control over him anymore. And so I thought he would like stood up and pulled up. No. So when John, does anyone have a Bible? John 20. We need to look at John 20, 5 through 8. So we created this. Shout out to Stargate Studios in Malta. So this is what John would have seen in Peter. So John 20, 5 through 8. Can you read that? Yeah, verse 5. And stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came following him and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloth lying there and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus, Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloth, but folded up in a place by itself. Then the other disciple who had reached the tomb first also went in and he saw and believed. He saw. And what did he see? The linen cloth. Fascinating. And you guys. Oh, dude, I'm just putting this together. So you're saying he may have gone in and seen. That's what he saw. The imprint on the. And I believe it was still glowing. Now, this is speculative. This is not his. I don't I haven't proven this. I'm working on an article on it right now because he goes to the tomb early. There's no electricity. I mean, this is an animation. I mean, I doubt that the sun would have reached it because it would have gone down into the tomb. I've been again in tombs. This was a rock-hewn tomb. Well, I've been in the actual tomb. We wouldn't have had sunlight like that coming in. I believe the face of Jesus was still glowing on it when he saw it. Interesting. What else does he see and believe? Think about that verse to give them the ability to see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Dude. I'm going to say that one more time. The light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Wow. I had never seen that before. It was not until chronologically they saw. So this, and then I do want to clear, this may be one of your tough questions for me, but I want to clear something up. There are so many fine Christians, and I've gotten this email a thousand times. That's why I wrote it in my book. So they say, Jeremiah, John's gospel said linen strips, plural. And they think that Jesus is a mummy. They think that he was mummified. So let me clear this up to help fine Christians like me who get confused by this. If we didn't have John's gospel, the only word that's used is sinden, which is behind us, fine linen cloth, singular. John's gospel gives us the face cloth, sudarium, which we can talk about. But then it also uses this term athonia. That's plural. So I want you to see that we see strips around the singular shroud at the head, the feet. I was leading the tour recently with a bunch of college kids, and they all take pictures of themselves asleep, you know, with their mouth open and then post them at each other and bully each other and all that. So they actually would do that. There's a jaw band just to dignify the body so when you're dead, you're not like, you know, they would actually. So a thony would have been probably there as well. That's where the strips. Yes, that's where the strips come from. So we're not doing anything unbiblical here. We're actually exegeting the scriptures. We're letting scripture interpret scripture, the four gospels. So the answer is yes to all four gospels, and that's what he would have seen, which is so helpful. Okay, so like I was looking at this book. By the way, this is great. Thank you. First of all, for listeners, tell the book is The Jesus Discoveries, Ten Historic Finds That Bring Us Face-to-Face with Jesus. Pretty recently published, right? Yeah, like in the last two weeks. Yeah, okay. Well, I'm already looking at it. Congratulations. It's awesome. We'll stick it in the show notes, and I think we'll have some copies in the bookstore. Thank you. So you got this thing on page 30. This is the probability. This blew my mind. Okay, so yeah, this is insane. So talk me through, and don't we have this? Yes, we do. Do we have the probability thing? Yeah, there are the two slides right there, 29 and 30. Talk me through this, and then I want to start throwing at you the objections. Yeah, let's go. Yeah, absolutely. So here we see all of the different wound patterns that match the crucifixion narratives embedded in the Gospels. I want to share something with you. The most evidence that we have from antiquity about crucifixion comes from four sources, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Okay? Crucifixion was so agonizing and so irrelevant to the Roman Empire because no Roman citizen was crucified. So we actually, the best description we have from antiquity of crucifixion are the four gospels. Tacitus doesn't really get into it, Suetonius, Diocasius, Josephus, a little bit. But as far as the description of crucifixion, also, this is why if we want to invent a religion, we would have never invented it the way the gospel writers did. I have an article, or I have a chapter in my book, Body of Proof, what the gospel writers should have done better if they were inventing a false narrative rather than a real one. because everything they said flew in the face of what the Roman mindset would have accepted. And so look at this. Look at the scourge marks. You can see it, the feet wounds. There's that side wound I was pointing out, the blood angle, the wrists, the elongated arms, the wound pattern. There's those shoulder abrasions, Josh. Do you see those right there from carrying the petibulum on the left? Yeah, top left. Yeah. His body is in rigor mortis. This is important, actually. So he's probably in the tomb 39 hours. That's Mark 1240. They say, give us a sign. He says, I'm going to give you one sign. I'm going to give you the sign of Jonah, my resurrection from the dead. So Jesus' body does not decay. There's no decay on the shroud. So rigor mortis usually lasts 39 to 45 hours. What does that mean, Jeremiah? Rigor mortis is when your body stiffens. And so his body would have been very stiff. That's why we even can see that the buttocks is even like, I mean, it's like he's flinching all over his body. His muscles are tight because his body, his head is elevated. His knees are up because his body is in rigor mortis at the moment of his resurrection. And there's no bodily decay oozing on the shroud. My body will not see decay. Sacrifices and offerings you did not require, but a body you prepared for me. So there's no body bodily decay on the shroud. And so that's what we see. So now let's go to the probability. So fast forward, barbarous. I'm in Turin, and I have to meet this mathematician named Bruno Barbaris. There's a name. All the credit to him. And the irony of his last name, Barbaris, is not lost on me at all this Easter weekend. He did a calculation. He is a mathematician. He has been with the actual shroud over 100 times. Like if the president of Italy wants to see the shroud, Bruno shows you the shroud. He's given 4,000 lectures on the shroud. He's a mathematician. He doesn't have a theological axe to grind. He assigned this probability that when you look at all of the correspondence of how the man of the shroud is crucified and you compare it to what we see in the Gospels, he gives it a probability of one in 200 billion that it is not Jesus. Wow. Wow. So this is on my YouTube channel. I'm from Kansas. You're from Kentucky. I'm from Kansas. I'm like, so Professor Barbaras, are you saying it's Jesus? I write about this in the book, and he almost gets frustrated. He's Italian. He's like, how can it not be? He actually does this. He said, the numbers. Josh would like him a lot. That's what I'm going to say. The numbers force me to believe it's him. Of course it is. Wow. I was like, oh, I feel stupid for asking now, but thank you. He said, didn't you hear me? One in 200 billion chance it's not. Is he a believer? Yes. A devout believer. Because he's a rational man, right? A rational man. And so that's why I said at the beginning, I believe the shroud is authentically the shroud of Jesus. because I'm not irrational. I know a lot more about the shroud than I do how my car will work to drive me home today. And I have no problem getting in the car and driving home. I have no clue how the air conditioning works, the transmission. I know some of our audience does, but I know a lot more about the shroud. All right. Go back to this real quick. Yeah. Now, is there anything you want to point out here? Can I ask a question? Go right ahead. All right. So like, okay, but what about this? Like what somebody, what I'm assuming people would say is, yeah, man, but somebody would just read the gospel accounts, and they would know what to put into the shroud to match the, you know, so it's marksman's error. Right, exactly. They would know what to do, so the probability thing doesn't work. But the cumulative data that you would have to add to that then is, okay, you would have to actually crucify someone to do that. They would have to have type AB blood. They would have to have pollen from the first century. You'd have to have a side wound in the exact spot between rib five and six. Another another thing that people would definitely get wrong if you're a hoaxer is you would have made Jesus much shorter because people often say, oh, people were only about five foot one. The women were like four feet eleven. We actually have people crucified taller than Jesus in Jerusalem from the reign of Pontius Pilate, the tomb of Yehohanan. I think he was six eleven, something like that. Six, six to six eleven. So the fact that Jesus is 510 to 511, according to this, you wouldn't have made that up. You wouldn't have known that. You would have actually guessed wrongly. So, again, all of the cumulative data is easy to respond to that and just say, well, no, actually. And again, no one else crucified their victims this way. You would have probably been more influenced by the fact that there would be no crucifixion. There would be no crown of thorns. His legs would have been broken. It would not have lined out. Well, and I'm just – so I'm a dumb Kentucky kid, but I'm even thinking here for a second. All right. So like the theory the skeptics have is this thing was created in like the 1300s. 1260 to 1390 based on carbon dating. Okay. I'll get to that in a second. I'll get to that. And I see you're beating me to the punch here. So – and what you said is if somebody had done that, then they would have based all of this on medieval art. And to your point earlier, all medieval art – for instance, with the crown of thorns. Yes. All medieval art makes it like a wreath. And through the palms. Yep. Yeah, that's right. All of that. That's right. But on the shroud, it's a hell. So there's things like that. He has a long beard. He has long hair. He has a beard that's been plucked in the front. Okay. So don't you have something about the face? Yes. Okay. So these are all what we call the icons. These are all, and that's just a fancy word for paintings of Jesus that are very old. The Christ Pantocrater one in the top right corner is the most famous. That's at St. Catherine's Monastery. that dates to the mid-6th century, so 550, something like that. Top right. Top right of what we're looking at. So all of these look the same to me. They all, and there's over 200, by the way. I couldn't fit them all in one slide. But what is the source material that all these people are using for the face of Jesus? Let's pull it up now. How would they not? they had to have source material before the fifth century for sixth century and they all match this and dude i've got some more show and tell now this is super crazy what i have right now okay this this you have to go over to the hagia sofia and in istanbul to see but mine's better than the one they have there come on man i've got a roman solidus in my hand it's solid gold it's from the late 7th century. What? I want you to look at the face. That is. Holy cow. What does that look like? It looks like that. Bring it back. Yeah. It looks just like that. So. Wait, is there a way for me to hold this up with a camera somehow? There you go. Can I zoom? It looks like an iPod. Well, the good news is there's pictures of it in my book. Yeah, we'll show as well in post here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll show this. Trinity will help us out here. This is a true story. I had just acquired a bronze coin. This is a hilarious story. I have time to tell it. I just acquired a bronze coin of Herod the Great. And all the coins in Jesus' aid, this is important for people that love the Bible. They're in the genitive. It's Herodou Basileou of Herod the Great. The coin's likeness, it literally belonged to them. So there's a whole faith lesson in there when Jesus said, whose image is this? Give to Caesar what Caesar, but give God your life because my image is on you. That's a different story. So I want to show this friend of mine, Bob Chitwood. Shout out to Bob Chitwood, who helps me all over the world. And I said, meet me on Wednesday night at church at Prestonwood, and I'm going to show you my coin. He's like, okay, well, I've got something to show you, too. I was like, all right. And so we meet in the pew, and he's like, during COVID, I got into buying gold. And he said, I have this coin, and I want you to just look at it and tell me what you think. and he hands me, dude, the Justinian Roman solidus that has a strike on it that it's almost mint condition, which is why I said it's better than the one at the Hagia Sophia. He handed you that. He hands me this. I said, Bob, look at what you're looking at. He said, what? I said, what does that look like? He said, well, that looks like the shroud. I've never seen that. I've never noticed that before. I said, dude, this is a Roman solidus of Justinian that Alan Wagner, a professor at Duke University, pointed out that there are 200 points of correspondence between this coin and the face of the man in the shroud. Far beyond what's acceptable in a court of law. So what's the theory on how that happened? Well, first off, that's in the 600s. It's the first coin with Jesus on it. There's a whole thing in there. He's battling the caliphate, which is Islam is killing all the Christians they can. And his last stand is, I'm going to put Jesus on the money because he's Christ, Lord of all. And he puts himself on the back as a mark of humility. and but Wagner gets this from Duke University you can look this up and he sees 200 points of correspondence between that face so again it all goes back to the same source material and this all anti-dates that predates the medieval dating by seven eight hundred years how do you explain that okay so that leads me to this objection so I'm gonna read it to you so I guess it was in 1988 There was like a few labs that started doing carbon dating. Totally corrupt. Can't wait to talk. I've never heard this one before. I'm ready for it. Okay, so in 88. Hold my coffee while I answer. Okay, I got you. I got you. Some labs started doing carbon dating. They're doing carbon dating on the thing, and they date it to, I've got it right here. 1260 to 1390. That's exactly it. To between 1260 and 1390 A.D., which coincides with the Shroud's appearance in France in the 14th century. What say you, Doc? Utterly corrupt data based on not what I'm saying, the 2019 Journal of Archaeometry published by the same Oxford University that says now you cannot use that carbon dating because based on the raw data, which the British Museum suppressed for 27 years. My friend Tristan Casablanca just published a book on this. He did the equivalent. He's a Frenchman. And he did the equivalent of a, and we just spoke at the International Shroud Conference together. He did the equivalent of what we call in America like a Freedom of Information Act. Took years, got the raw data finally of what they actually tested on the shroud. And they tested the one corner that all the scientists from 1978 said, don't test this. Don't test the corner. It's been patched. You're going to find cotton fibers like, because even this shroud, I don't know if you notice, we have gaff tape on the corners. It's already falling apart on the ends. And this is a replica. So obviously the church is smart enough to know, hey, this thing's kind of fraying on the edge, so we're going to patch it with cottons, which anyone can see under a microscope, but the rest is fine linen. So they supposedly take the top left piece, the Reyes fragment, and they test it. Seven labs are supposed to test it. Only three do, Oxford, Zurich, and Arizona. One guy is awarded a $5 million endowed share. You can look this up for yourself after he writes it on the chalkboard and sits there like this, 1260 to 1390. The corrupt British museum that I've been in a thousand times suppresses the raw data for 27 years. So according to my buddy Tristan, what they found and what the Journal of Archaeometry points out in 2019 is the sample that they tested is not homogenous with the shroud itself. They may not have even tested the shroud. What? Because it's a corrupted piece. Or if they did, it's one of those patched pieces. So if we were to line up, if we were to stack up all the evidence against the shroud, the only evidence that I ever hear is this carbon dating. And maybe I'll hear new stuff today with these questions. But you cannot use that. That is not acceptable anymore. You need to update your research. When did that change? 2019, the Journal of Archaeometry. And then with this Freedom of Information Act, where now we can actually see that the samples they used are not homogenous with the shroud. And then there's new testing happening in 2024, 2025. Well, and then that's the other. I get into the five ways in my book that the shroud has also been dated. The Institute of Crystallography. This has been crazy to learn all this, y'all. Wide-angle X-ray scattering, waxes dating. Remember how I said that we have lots of other shrouds from the land of Israel has compared the date of a shroud without a doubt dated to the 80s 70s with the Shroud of Turin So we have a shroud from Masada and then we have the Shroud of Turin They have both been getting old together at the same time. They can tell the degradation on the shroud, that it's been getting old based on waxes dating for 2000 years. Wow. So it's been getting older for a lot longer than 700 years. Wow. OK, show me the do the face thing real quick. Okay, this is a shout-out to my friend Doug Powell, an awesome scholar and apologist. This is what he created in mid-journey. Look at that. So this is based on the shroud imprint. All he did. And, like, Jesus may have looked like that. Absolutely he did. He's an olive-skinned Jewish man, long beard, long hair. Don't read the Corinthians passage about short hair. Oh, dang, you beat me to it. That's where I was going. Like, don't read that at me. Don't eisegeat that at me. No Jewish man had short hair. And didn't have a little beard. And this is cool, the way Doug did this. Well, I just don't want to ask about it, but go ahead. He inserted just two things in the mid-journey. The image of the shroud and then the Christ Panto Crotter icon. Just those two things. And I give more of this on my Instagram, the whole story of it. And that's what becomes the cover of my book. Holy cow. Because I think it's so striking to see that's likely what Jesus' resurrection face looked like. Okay, so I am going to read the first. please do okay that was one of my questions let's do heresy together out of context so two yeah two biblical objections to this number one uh dr johnson doesn't this violate the second commandment against having images hold my coffee again okay that's number one okay number two what about first corinthians 11 14 where paul says does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair is a shame to him. So Dr. Johnston, obviously Jesus wouldn't have had long hair and God wouldn't have preserved a quote unquote graven image. Right. Thank you for these great questions. So I asked Barry Schwartz the same thing. And again, I want to appeal to him because he gave the TED talk on the shroud and then he later published an awesome journal article. I was the editor of a journal called The City when I was a professor at Houston Baptist University. And I asked him to answer the five top objections. And I summarize that and give him all the credit in my book. And I said, isn't this a graven image? The second commandment, just for the benefit of our audience, is you will have no other gods. You're not going to worship a tree god or anything you made. And oh, Barry said, and this is a Jewish man. Barry said, oh, that's so easy to answer. The shroud is not man-made. So it's not a graven image. It's a moment of resurrection. No man made the shroud. And by the way, I've had the shroud, literally this replica all over the world with me. I think we put 125,000 people through our exhibits last year. I've never seen one person worship it. I've never seen one person pray to it. Now, can I tell you this? I got on my knees in front of the actual shroud, and I didn't pray to the shroud or worship it, but I had a moment where I said, Jesus, make me a more ardent defender of the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. Please, I rededicate my life to you right now. So it's like taking people to Israel. So the Corinthians passage, if you've been to Corinth, they had short hair there. They looked like Romans. If you study Jesus in Judaica himself, no Jewish men, and I answer this extensively, they all would have had beards. They all would have had longerish hair. And there's no correction there needed because, again, Paul is writing to the church at Corinth. I've been to Corinth. You guys probably have too many times. This is not a Jewish community. This is a Roman area. So very, very simply. And again, you know, Paul took the Nazarite vow. He shaved his head. He did some interesting things. But there's there is no evidence that any Jewish man in the 20s and 30s A.D. would have had no beard and short hair at all. Interesting. To your point, what you said earlier. So we already mentioned that C.S. Lewis strikingly that really surprised me that C.S. Lewis had an image. I appreciated it so much. That's right. And to your point, that is why – and he wrote a letter to an Anglican nun about the shroud. And he said – I'm going to read him. This was C.S. Lewis' letter back to her. Thank you so much for the head of our Lord from the shroud. It has grown upon me wonderfully. I don't commit myself to the genuineness. Basically, he's going, I don't know. Yeah. Back then, totally understandable. He said, one can never be quite certain, but the great value is to make one realize he was a man. and once even a dead man. There is so much difference between a doctrine and a realization. And he had that photo framed so that he would remind himself this was not some abstract doctrine like a real guy dot on a real cross for the real you. And if you really give him your life, he can really change it forever. That's powerful. That's it, man. Yeah. Okay. So, okay, you got those. So you got those objections. Yes. Those objections. Any more? Okay. Yeah, I got it. Let me do a couple others. All right. What about this? Dr. Johnson. Yes. You can just call me JJ. JJ. I'm trying to think of something. JJ. But there is simply no historical evidence of the shroud before the mid-14th century. In fact, Bishop Pierre, something I can't pronounce, a French name, who had jurisdiction of the church where the shroud was located told the Pope the shroud was a forgery and said the previous bishop identified the artist. I've responded to that completely in a Blaze article we should put in the show notes. Yeah, do that. It really goes down the rabbit hole, and I don't want to lose the audience, but it is not a forgery at all. And there are reasons he wrote that that I literally just blast out of the park. But can we bring up – we actually have a map of the provenance – this is the term – of the Shroud. We know that Eusebius references the face cloth. The Shroud is meant – Eusebius does? Yes, the face cloth. Explain who Eusebius is. The greatest church historian. Early church. Yeah, he was there at the Council of Nicaea. So if we play this, this is the route that we have historically of the Shroud. We know it's in Edessa and 544. How do we know that? Based, again, thank you to Eusebius, the early church historian, and others who talk about the fact that there's this face image cloth at Edessa. And it actually gets lost and refound. He mentions this. Yes, it gets lost and refound in Edessa. That's 544. It's interesting how it races away from Islamic conquests in Asia Minor. It's in Constantinople, shot out to the Greek Orthodox who never get credit. They probably protected the Shroud, the Eastern Church, for a thousand years before the Catholic Church ever had it. This is why I always say the Shroud belongs to the Unified Church. It doesn't belong to the Catholic Church. It doesn't belong to the Eastern Orthodox. It belongs to the Unified Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. And then it goes to Athens. We know all this historically. It's cool, though. So you see Naples during World War II. Hitler was fascinated with the shroud and thought it would give him power to win. So that's a whole story in and of itself, how literally at the Abbey in Naples, the monks there protected the shroud from Nazi SS when they came to try to find it. Those are my kind of monks. Dude. I would have liked those guys. They had no idea it was in the altar that they were literally going around. They're like, just keep praying and singing. And the Nazis left. And they were looking for the shroud. So that's the only time it's been out of Turin since 1578. Turin is in Italy, northern Italy. And so, again, this is the very clear provenance that it goes way before Chambers, Chambers, France, Leary. We actually have it far before that. But, again, I always tell people this. It's only been known as the Shroud of Turin since the 1578, the 16th century. It was known by different names before that throughout history, just like my beloved Kansas City Chiefs were once known as the Dallas Texans. It had different names to it. And so this helped me understand it. I'm a visual learner. And again, back to the pollen, you guys. The other 20 pollen spores that we have on the Shroud are from all of these places. Are you serious? And Max Fry took five years to prove that, to go all these places and match up the pollen. No way. That's stupid. Wow. I know. Wow. That's incredible. So basically you're saying, hey, man, this is just a lie. It's simply a lie that there's no historical evidence of it before the 1400s. Just get infected with a little history and it's easily answered. That's fascinating. All right. We already did the artistic and anatomical. Oh, by the way, I want to say this where you're talking about Constantinople. One of the things that's really interesting, and I heard this on one of the other podcasts you were on. One of the things that's really interesting is that I love about this is it's both a death and resurrection. Yes. Peace. That's right. Which is interesting because major world religions, contra Islam, obviously Islam says that Christ was not crucified. So Islam's claim is that Jesus was a prophet, but he was not crucified. I think the Quran literally says they crucified him not, with an exclamation point. So they deny, obviously, the crucifixion. And then obviously Judaism denies the resurrection. What you got right here is essentially you would have proof of both death and resurrection. And burial, too. I would add that. You have death, burial, and resurrection in one artifact, and nothing outside the Bible does that except the shroud. That addresses the atheists. There's an atheist claim there that the body could have been stolen. Nope. Nope. Not with Jewish burial traditions. Not in non-wartime. Absolutely not. All right. What about this, Doc? JJ. What about this, Doc, JJ? Okay, but JJ, the shroud fits perfectly into a period when relics were widely produced and circulated. Why should I believe this is any more authentic than pieces of the, quote, true cross? Yeah. Now, wait, or many other holy objects. Now, first of all, me and Carlos were doing a little research before this, and we found some old Martin Luther quotes about relics that are too funny not to read. They're amazing. So I'm going to read these, and then you can respond to the objections. So, by the way. Don't get offended, though. No, he's not going to get it. I'm not a Catholic. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. We're just team Protestant all the way right here. So first of all, for anybody that doesn't know, Martin Luther obviously kind of kicked off the Protestant Reformation, 1500s, was ardently, passionately against relics. So I'm going to read some amazing Martin Luther quotes. What lies – by the way, the other thing I'll say is Martin Luther had a very spicy sense of humor. Yes, he did. Very. And he had a brewery in his basement that his wife led for him, and he had a library in his bathroom. I've been in it. So the man literally in his bathroom had a library at his toilet. What's funny about that is apparently he had some form of IBS. That's why he had a library. Yeah, he had a library built in his toilet. There's a literal Martin Luther quote. I'll butcher it here. It's like, I break wind in Wittenberg, and I hear it in Rome. Like, that's a literal Martin Luther quote. So here's some Martin Luther quotes for you. What lies are there about relics? That's a real quote, by the way. Look that up. Will you look that up? Look that up. What lies are there about relics? One claims to have a feather from the wing of the angel Gabriel, and the bishop of Mainz has a flame from Moses' burning bush. How does it happen? This is amazing. How does it happen that 18 apostles are buried in Germany when Christ only had 12? But I'll give you another one. Here's another one. These are funny. If all the – so he's mocking the Catholic Church's way he's doing it. If all the pieces of the true cross were collected together, they would fill a whole ship. Yet the gospel testifies there was only one cross, one last one. There are enough nails from the Holy Cross. So, by the way, for listeners, if you didn't know this, Little Church History, especially in the early medieval period, tons of Catholic churches would claim to have some relic that dated to the actual events. And so what he's saying is they were just making up tons of them. So here's another one. There are enough nails from the Holy Cross in various parts of the world to shoo a whole team of forces. Right. So, J.J., it seems like, man, this just arose right in that period when all these relics were happening. And, man, aren't we Protestants? We're against relics. Well, we are. Absolutely. There's 20,000 relics, and they have different degrees. Knowles and I were just talking about this last week. And here's the interesting thing about the Shroud. It's not a relic. It's an artifact because it can be tested with the sciences. And there's one other artifact that the Catholic Church has, the Sudarium of Oviedo, which we have an entire chapter that Doug Powell contributed to my book. That's the face cloth, the Sudarium that also has type AB blood on it. It matches. No image, but it matches blood type, which is fascinating. We can jump down to that, but I want to answer this. Martin Luther is in a time where, to be a priest, these men were utterly corrupt. Don't think like your modern pastor today, good man living moral lives, 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1 commitments. No, these guys were some of the most corrupt people that you could meet. John Tetzel is popular at this time, who said famously, every time a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from Purgatory Springs. I've been to the home of John Tetzel. And so the relics, it's interesting, Frederick the Wise protects. I don't want to geek out on the Reformation, but Frederick the Wise is the protector of Martin Luther. And he's the one who actually has Luther abducted, so he's not burned at the stake, and then protects him at the Vartburg Castle where I've been. And it was interesting, by the end of Martin Luther's discipleship and Frederick the Wise's life, he had actually put away all the relics he owned because he was growing in his love for God's Word. So just a little side-off there. So I agree that I'm not here to defend Catholic relics of any kind, and especially how they were misused and abused to give people absolution and salvation and pay for forgiveness and pray for the dead and all anti-biblical. But again, I've realized the shroud isn't a relic. It's an artifact. It's been tested by the sciences. And what you're saying is, man, honestly, it's just not true that the evidence points to arising in the medieval period during this era of relics. Exactly. It's just not what the evidence says. And I'm not the only one. I mean, there is a growing number of biblical scholars and archaeologists that feel the same way that I do based on the evidence. Let me ask you two quick final questions here. All right. So let's just say – let's say someday it comes out that – man, actually it was a hoax. Someday somebody finds an old journal from 1360, whatever it is, and some guy is like, oh, man, I did it. Mwah! That kind of thing. Does that affect your faith in the resurrection at all? Not one bit. Why not? because, again, the evidence is so powerful that Jesus died and rose again. You cannot explain the suffering in the world without the resurrection of Jesus. Romans 8, 18, Jesus foretold it in Mark 8, 31, Mark 9, 31, Mark 10, 33 and 34. On the third day, Jesus messianizes Hosea 6, 2. On the third day, he will raise us up. Jesus adumbrated resurrection. Mark 5, Luke 7, John 11, Jairus' daughter, the widow of Nain's son, Lazarus. He showed he had power over death. Fourthly, all of the archaeological findings that we have shows that the gospel narratives smack of authenticity. Number five, the resurrection was not what his disciples expected. This is where a lot of people lose out. They don't realize this is probably why Judas fell out of the boat. 4Q 285, the Dead Sea Scrolls community, says that when the Messiah shows up, he's going to kill the Roman emperor, the Ketim. and he's going to proclaim himself God, cleanse a corrupt priesthood, vanquish the temple. And that was the Messiah they were looking for. This is why Peter in Matthew 16, 23 says, Jesus, you can't go to the cross. And he literally says, get behind me, Satan. I'm going to the cross. So his disciples didn't expect it. And then how do you explain the conversion of Saul of Tarsus? What we can say is that Jesus appeared to those who loved him. Jesus appeared to those who were indifferent to him. and he appeared to those who were hostile to him, none other than his own family. Mark 3, his family thinks he's nuts. Mark 6, he's basically called a bastard by this son of iniquity, this illicit child. John 7, 5, not even his brothers believed on him. This is why we have the appearance to James, which gives me chills right now even thinking about 1 Corinthians 15, 7, and he appears to James. James is like a lot of our family and friends. They're the most skeptical of Jesus. And he was he was humiliated by his brother. I mean, think about it. And yet James goes from skeptic to believer. I would have loved to be at that appearance tradition, by the way. I could see him appearing to James at the at the at the home workshop. You know, bro, check out my side. They got me good. Check out this dude. Here I am. And here's what we know about James. He becomes a pillar of the church. According to Galatians, Paul sinks out his wisdom. James, Peter and John. He's the pastor of the world's first megachurch. So don't hate on mega churches. James probably had 20,000 in this congregation if you count up the book of Acts conservatively. He dies, according to Josephus, in AD 62, this is Antiquities 20, believing his brother is the Messiah. So I have four sons, and you have to ask yourself this question critically. What would it take for you to believe your brother was the Messiah and to die believing that? My boys don't. I break up civil wars every day. They don't think their brother is the son of God. And then I don't even have time to get to Saul. And then finally, everywhere the Christian message goes, society is improved. Humanity is rehumanized. This is a message, the gospel, that's unstoppable. So I haven't even mentioned the shroud, and I've just given you seven reasons that are my body of proof of why, without a doubt, I believe Jesus rose from the grave. And if it comes out, the shroud wasn't it. I'll say, okay, let's keep going. That's right. Wow. man um there's a bunch of dudes in particular like uh you know we we're hearing more and more about especially like long distance truckers and a bunch of guys who are like man you know kind of trying to figure out the jesus thing and you know maybe i don't know i don't know man uh what would you say to somebody who they're hearing this and even while we've been talking they've been sitting in a truck or working out on a treadmill and like while you've been talking there's been something rising in their heart. They're like, dude, I think it's time to bend the knee. Yeah. What would you say to that guy, Ryan? I want you to pray the prayer that the sinner prayed that Jesus heard. Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner. That's enough. You don't need the right words or formulaic. Jesus, I trust that your payment was enough for me on the cross and that you rose again. I believe that. So, Jesus, I trust in you to forgive me of my sins. That's all you have to pray. You don't even need to pray. Just believe it. and proclaim Jesus is Lord, Romans 10, 9, and you'll be forgiven. There's a second person I want to talk to this Easter weekend. Maybe you're coming to Lake Point this weekend for the first time without someone you love. You've lost a loved one. You've lost maybe a child, maybe a husband, a wife, a best friend. The beauty of the resurrection is we can talk about our loved ones in the present tense because of the glory of the resurrection. 1 Thessalonians 4, we grieve, but we don't grieve without hope. John 14, 19, Jesus said, because I live, you will live also. Two dozen times we're given that promise. So therefore, we can be strong. We can be vigilant, always abounding in the work of the Lord. First Corinthians 15, 58, because we know that everything we do for Jesus matters because of the resurrection. Dr. Johnson, Jeremiah, would you please pray for the people who've been listening? Absolutely. Amen. Thank you, Jesus, for the power of the resurrection. and Lord Romans 8 11 your word says the same power that rose Jesus from the grave dwells in every one of us as believers Lord we don't know if it's 34,000 billion watts or what but we know it's a power we can't quantify it's a power that forgives our sin it's a power that takes us out of addiction it's the power that brings our marriages together and helps us be better parents and so Lord we want to saturate ourselves in resurrection power and so Lord the whole purpose of this broadcast has not been to make us smarter. It's been to help us know you better, to have a face-to-face look at you, Jesus. We say with Paul in 1 Corinthians 13, we want to see you face-to-face. We say with David, your face, Lord, will I seek. We say with John in Revelation 22, 4, Jesus, we want to see your face clearly. And this broadcast has given us a glimpse, Lord, a blink, a twinkling, and we can't wait to be with you face-to-face. And so, Jesus, thank you today for the powerful truth of your resurrection. And, Lord, we pray that you bless all the services at all the campuses at Lake Point this weekend, that, God, your spirit would be here. Lord, I pray people wouldn't just invite people. I pray they would bring people and also those that aren't even here in the DFW area that they would watch online and get friends and family. And I've watched parties this Easter and say, hey, come listen to Pastor Joster's message. Anoint the services, Lord, we pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Jeremiah, thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you.