#483 – Julia Shaw: Criminal Psychology of Murder, Serial Killers, Memory & Sex

The following is a conversation with Julia Shaw, a criminal psychologist who has written extensively on a wide variety of topics that explore human nature, including psychopathy, violent crime, psychology of evil, police interrogation, false memory manipulation, deception detection, and human sexuality. Her books include Evil about the psychology of murder and sadism, the memory illusion about false memories, by, about bisexuality, and her new book, they should definitely go order now called Green Crime, which is a study of the dark underworld of poachers, illegal gold miners, corporate frauds, hitmen, and all kinds of other environmental criminals. Julia is a brilliant and kind-hearted person with whom I got the chance to have many great conversations with on and off the mic. This was an honor and a pleasure. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor, check them out in the description, or at lextreedman.com slash sponsors, it is in fact the best way to support this podcast. We got Shopify for selling stuff online, better help for mental health, element for electrolytes, and AG1 for my daily multivitamin. Choose wise and my friends. And now onto the full ad reads, I try to make them interesting, but if you skip, please still check out the sponsors I enjoy their stuff, maybe you will too. To get in touch with me, for whatever reason go to lextreedman.com slash contact. Alright, let's go. This episode is brought to you by Shopify, a platform designed for anyone to sell anywhere with a great looking online store. Obviously it's an incredible platform for selling stuff, but again, I will reiterate as I do often as we did in the DHH episode, what's also incredible is the implementation of the infrastructure, how the thing is built. The legendary well-documented Black Friday, I believe in 2021, Shopify handled 30 terabytes of data every minute, 32 plus million requests per minute hit the servers, 11 million mySQL queries per second were processed, and all of that mostly Ruby on Rails. The very framework, the very programming language, it's not supposed to scale, and it did, and it did so incredibly well, seamlessly and still maintain the beauty, underlying that implementation. There's this right up our recent red ball how they were actually able to make that happen. There's so many interesting details, including the fact that as DHH talked about that it was a modular monolith, and it was scaled horizontally in these very interesting modular ways. Again, that's probably outside of the scope of what I'm supposed to be doing here, just another chance to celebrate the incredible engineering behind Shopify. And all of that to help you sell stuff, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com slash Lex, that's all lower case, go to Shopify.com slash Lex to take your business to the next level today. This episode is also brought to you by BetterHelp, spelled H-E-L-P-H-L-P. They figure out what you need to match with a licensed therapist in under 48 hours. And boy, in this episode, do we delve into the dark aspects of human nature and the human mind? It is so fascinating. And what's also, I think, inspiring to me about Julia's work is that she approaches every situation, every human being with a deep empathy, realizing that each of us have the capacity for good and evil and so much of who we are, shaped by our environment. That's a real honest way to deal with cases where humans do horrible stuff to each other, realizing that they're not somehow different than us, that we do, all of us are capable of doing these kinds of things. 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I'm still, and for the past many, many years, probably over a decade, maybe over 15 years. Most days, I'm doing one meal a day. I'm doing extremely low carb. Not for any reasons, except it makes me happy. But when you do that kind of stuff, you want to make sure that the electrolytes are on point. And I used the element for that. You should consider doing the same. Get a free eight-count sample pack with any purchase. Try it at drinkelement.com slashlex. This episode is also brought to you by AG1, an all-in-one daily drink to support better health and peak performance. They got an X-Tone version now, always iterating, always improving. AG1 does a simple thing and it does it well. It makes sure that all your nutritional bases are covered. I make an AG1 drink. I throw it in the freezer for like 10 minutes, 20 minutes. So it's nice and super cold. And I drink it after a long run. Sit back, think about the universe of my place in it, and it's become a little ritual that brings joy to my life. Although today, it's pouring outside. So I was about to go for a run and then drink an AG1. But I think I'm going to have to skip the run unless I'm insane, which I am. But no matter what, I'll drink an AG1 in a little bit here. Some of my happiest long distance runs have been when it starts pouring all of a sudden. And at first as a resistance, maybe I should find some cover and then you just say, screw it. I just accept the fact that you're going to be soaking wet. And especially if the rain is at all warm, it just becomes this experience where you are truly one with nature and kind of stop giving a damn about the conventional experience of comfort. And you're just there alive in the moment. That's a great great experience. So now I just talk myself into screw it. I'm going to go for a run. Anyway, they'll give you a one month supply of fish oil when you sign up at drink AG1.com slash Lex. This is Alex Freeman podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, get feedback and so on. And now dear friends, here's Julia Shaw. You wrote the book evil the size behind humanity's dark side. So lots of interesting topics to cover here. Let's start with the continuum. You described that evil as a continuum. In other words, the dark tetrad psychopathy, sadism, narcissism, machevalianism are a continuum of traits, not a binary zero one label. Of monster or non-monster. So can you explain this continue? Yeah. So each trait on the dark tetrad as it's called, which is the four traits that are associated with dark personality traits. So things that we often associate with the word evil, like sadism, which is a pleasure in hurting other people, machevalianism, which is doing whatever it takes to get ahead, narcissism, which is taking too much pleasure in yourself and seeing yourself as superior to others. And then there's psychopathy, psychopathic personality, specifically often lacks in empathy. And it's usually characterized by a number of different traits, including a parasitic lifestyle. So mooching off of others, deceptiveness, lying to people, and again, that empathy dimension, where you are more comfortable hurting other people because you don't feel sad when other people feel sad. Now, all of those traits, psychopathy, sadism, machevalianism, and narcissism, all of them have a scale. And so you can be low on each of those traits or you can be high on each of those traits. And what the dark tetrad is, it's actually way of classifying people into those who might be more likely to engage in risky behaviors or harmful behaviors and those who are not. And if you score high on all of them, you're most likely to harm other people. But each of us scores somewhere. So I might score low on satism, but higher on narcissism. And in all of them, I'm probably subclinical. And so this is the other thing we often talk about in psychology is that there is clinical traits and clinical diagnoses, like someone is diagnosed as having narcissism. Or there's subclinical, which is you don't quite meet the threshold that you have traits that are related and that are so important for us to understand in the same context. So early in the book, you raised the question that I think you highlighted is a very important question. If you could go back in time, would you kill baby Hitler? This is somehow a defining question. Can you explain? Well, it's about whether you think that people are born evil. And so the question of would you kill baby Hitler is sort of a meant to be something that gets people chatting about whether or not they think that people are born with the traits that make them capable of extreme harm towards others. Or whether they think it's socialized, whether it's something that maybe in how people are raised is sort of manifests over time. And with Hitler, we know from certainly psychologists who have poured over his traits over time and looked at who he was over the course of his life. There's always this question of sort of was he mad or bad? And with the answer to was he mad, well, he certainly had some characteristics that people would associate with, for example, maybe sadism with this idea that he was less high on empathy is probably also showcased in his work. But in terms of whether he was born that way, I think the answer usually would be no. And actually in his early life, he didn't showcase quite a lot of the traits that later he sort of defined the horrors that he was capable of. So would I go back in time and kill baby Hitler? The answer is no. Because I don't think it's a straight line from baby to adult. And I don't think people are born evil. So you think a large part of it is nurture versus nature, the environment shaping the person to become, to manifest the evil that they bring out to the world. Well, and I would be careful with using the word evil, because I think we shouldn't use it to describe human beings because it most commonly others people. It's in fact, I think makes us capable of perpetrating horrendous crimes against those we label evil. So for me, that word is, it's the end of a conversation. It's when we call somebody evil, we say, this person is so different from me that I don't even need to bother trying to understand why they are capable of doing terrible things, because I would never do such things. I am good. And so that artificial differentiation between good and evil is something that's certainly with the book. I'm trying to dismantle. And that's why introducing continuums for different kinds of negative traits is really important. And introducing this idea that there's nothing fundamental to people that makes them capable of great harm. We all have the capacity to kill people and murder people and do other terrible things. The question is why we don't do those things rather than why we do do those things quite often. So I think humanizing and understanding that we all have these traits is the most important thing in my book, certainly. Yeah, I think a prerequisite of doing evil, I see this in war a lot, is dehumanizing the other. In order to be able to murder them, not scale, you have to reformulate the war as a fight between good and evil. And the interesting thing you see with war is both sides think that it's the battle of good versus evil. It almost always is like that, especially at large scale wars. That's right. And on top of dehumanization, there is also this other thing called deindividuation, which is where you see yourself as part of the group, and you no longer see yourself as an individual. And so it's this fight of us versus them. And so you need both of those things. You need that sort of collapse of empathy for other people, the people who are on the other side. And you need this idea that you can be swallowed by the group. And that gives you a sense of also the cloak of justice, the cloak of morality, even when maybe you're on the wrong side. And that's where I mean, getting into sort of who's on the right side of each war is always a more complicated issue, but certainly calling other people evil and calling the other side evil and dehumanizing them is crucial to most of these kinds of fights. Yeah, you promote empathy as an important thing to do when we're trying to understand each other. And then a lot of people are uncomfortable with empathy when it comes to folks that we traditionally labels evil, Hitler's example. To have empathy means that you're somehow dirtying yourself by the evil. What's your case for empathy? Even when we're talking about some of the darker humans in human history. My case for empathy or evil empathy as I sometimes call it, empathy for people who we often call evil. Also, the title of my book is evil or in the UK market, it's making evil, which is a reference to a Nietzsche quote, which is thinking evil is making evil. The idea being that evil is a label we place onto others. There's nothing inherent to anything that makes it evil. And so I also think that we need to, well, dismantle that and empathize with people we call evil, because if we're saying that this is the worst kind of act or worst kind of manifestation of what somebody can be. So if someone can destroy others, torture others, hurt others, I work as a criminal psychologist, so I work a lot on sexual abuse cases, on rape cases, on murder trials. And so in those contexts, that word evil is used all the time to go, this person is evil. And if we're doing that, then we need to go, okay, but what we actually want is we don't really just want to label people. We want to stop that behavior from happening. And the only way we're going to do that is if we understand what led that person to come to that situation and to engage in that behavior. And so that's why evil empathy, I think, is crucial, because ultimately what we want is to make society safer. And the only way we can do that is to understand the psychological and social levers that led them to engage in this behavior in the first place. So in a small tangent, I get to interview a bunch of folks that a large number of people consider evil. So how would you give advice about how to conduct such interviews when you're sitting in front of a world leader that some millions of people consider evil? Or if you're sitting in front of people that are actually like convicted criminals, what's the way to conduct that interview? Because to me, I want to understand that human being. They also have their own narrative about why they're good and why they're misunderstood and have a story in which they're not evil. And they're going to try to tell that story. And some of them are exceptionally good at telling that story. So if it's for public consumption, how would you do that interview? I think it's important to speak with people who we, or who a lot of people, do humanize, including myself. I mean, I also speak with people who I think are, or have, I know have committed terrible crimes. And I have spoken to these people because as a criminal psychologist, that's often part of my job. So what's interesting, I think, when you're speaking to people who have committed really terrible crimes, or certainly who've been convicted of terrible crimes, is that not only is it potentially insightful because they might give you a real answer and not just a controlled narrative about why they committed these crimes. If they are either maintaining their innocence or they're more reluctant to do that, I think even the narrative that they are controlling, that they're being very careful with, still tells us a lot about them. So I think certainly in my research on environmental crime as well, what we see is that people use a lot of rationalization and they say things like, well, everybody's doing it. And if I hadn't done this first, somebody else would have done this waste crime or this other kind of crime. And so there's this rationalization, there's this normalization, there's this diminishing of your own role and agency. And that still tells us a lot about the psychology of people who commit crimes because most of us are very bad at saying sorry and saying, I messed this up and I shouldn't have done that. And instead, what our brains do is they try to make us feel better and they go, no, you're still a good person despite this one thing. And so we try to rationalize it and we try to excuse it, we try to explain it. And there is some truth to it as well because we know the reasons why we engaged in that behavior and other people don't have the whole context. So we also do have more of the whole story. But on the other hand, we need to also face the fact that sometimes we do terrible things and we need to stop doing those terrible things and prevent other people from doing the same. I find this these pictures of World War II leaders as children kind of fascinating because it grounds you makes you realize that there is a whole story there of environment, of development through their childhood through the teenage years. You just remember, they're all kids. Except Stalin, he was looking evil already when young. Well, people used to not smile on photos as well. So I think looking at historical photos of children or sometimes even kids in other cultures, it's like, oh, why are they also serious? But our creepiness readers are also way off. So this is something that I've been interested in for a long time as well, is that we have this intuitive perception of whether or not somebody is trustworthy and that intuitive perception according to ample studies at this point is not to be trusted. And one thing in particular is whether or not we think someone is creepy, including children, but usually the research has done, of course, on adult faces and with adults. And there's only recently, did we even really define what that vague feeling of creepiness is? And it has a lot to do with just not following social norms. And this is something we see that transfers to other contexts like why people are afraid of people with severe mental illness and psychosis. If you're on the bus or the tube in London and someone's talking to themselves and they're acting in a erratic way, we know that people are more like to keep a distance. There was one study where they literally had a waiting room, where they also had people with chairs. And the question was how many chairs would you sit away from someone, you know, has a severe mental illness? And the answer is you sit more chairs away. And there's a physical and psychological distancing that's happening there. And it's not because people with severe mental illness are inherently more violent or more dangerous. That is not actually what the research finds. It's that we perceive them as such because we perceive them as weird, basically. We go, this isn't how you're supposed to be behaving. And so I'm worried about this. And so I'm going to keep my distance. And so creepiness is much the same. And that's where you can totally misfire whom you perceive as creepy just because they're not acting in the way that you expect people to act in society. Well, what are the sort of concrete features that contribute to our creepiness, metric? Is that meme accurate that when the person is attractive, you're less likely to liable them as creepy? It depends if they're too attractive, it can be. So there's there's effects that interact there. That's hilarious. And we also don't trust people, potentially, who are too attractive, but again, deviation from the norm. And so if you're deviating in any way, that can lead to, well, your your assessment being more wrong, but also you assessing people as more negative. And so with yeah, with creepiness, the the main thing that bothers me as a criminal psychologist is that tangential to creepiness is this general idea of trustworthiness and that you can tell whether somebody is lying. And I've done research on this as have lots of other people like Aldert Fry is one of the leading researchers on deception detection. And he has found in so many studies that is really hard to detect whether someone is lying reliably. And that people, especially police officers, people who do investigative interviewing, they have this high confidence level that they because of their vast experience can in fact tell whether the person across in them is lying to them, this witness, the suspect. And the answer that even that if you take them into experimental settings, they are no better than chance at detecting lies. And yet they think they are. And so again, you get into this path where you're going to miss people who are actually lying to potentially and you're going to potentially point it innocent people and say, I think your guilty of this crime and you go hard on that person in a way that might even lead to a wrongful conviction. So it's the fact that it's very difficult to detect lies and overconfidence in policing. Crazy huge problem. Not just policing in relationships and in lots of other contexts as well. I mean, a lot of jealousy is born out of uncertainty. Jealousy isn't, I know for sure that you have done something that is threatening our relationship. A lot of jealousy is what's in my head because I am assuming that you might be thinking or doing X. And that is also basically an exercise in lie detection. And there as well, we are very bad at it. Is there a combination of the dark tetrad and how good you are lying? Like are people with the certain traits maybe psychopathy are better at lying than others? There's definitely some research to support the idea that people with psychopathy are better at lying. There's also some research specifically on faking good in, for example, parole decisions. So when it comes up to someone who is, there's a legal decision to be made as whether this person can be released from prison or released from just detention in general. And then the person will act in a particular way, sort of mimic a good prisoner, mimic someone who's safe to be released into society. And then the committee goes, oh, well, you know, this person is doing great. And so they're ready to be released. And then they make the wrong decision because that person has been faking it. So I think with psychopathy, it's a bit complicated. There has been some sort of historically as well, some concern that certain treatment for psychopathy, especially empathy focused treatment, makes people with psychopathy more likely to fake empathy and to weaponize it. But then there's other research which finds that if you use other kinds of interventions, it's like Jennifer Scheme in California who does research on people with psychopathy who have committed severe crimes. And she specifically creates these treatment programs that aren't just around empathy, but they're more around almost learning the rules of society and convincing people that actually being pro-social is a better way to get what you want in life. And so there's a real need for tailored treatments to deal with, especially certain kinds of personality traits, dark personality traits, to try and convince people basically actually being pro-social is the better path, rather than just going hard on, you know, empathy and things that they don't maybe also see as faults with themselves. Is there a psychological cost to empathizing with so-called the monsters? You reference Nietzsche in the book, you know, gays into the abyss, the abyss gays into you. If you study, quote, quote, evil or study monsters that you may a bit become that, is there a danger of that? I don't think so. I think that's what people fear. So a lot of the Nietzsche quits they use as well are some of them I like because they speak to the chapters I write about, but and the issues I write about. But some of them I also like because they are how people think about evil and people who are labeled evil. And I do think with gazing into the abyss and the abyss gazing back, it's more of a you're trying to find it and that's why in some ways that doesn't work actually because it isn't a total blank, it isn't the abyss. There are in fact things that you can see, even even if it's just superficially and patterns you can recognize to help you and key decision makers, especially in legal settings, make better decisions around people like this. So when they see these patterns, they act a better way. So yeah, I get asked a lot as a criminal psychologist, do you carry the cases that you deal around with you? So some of the cases involve huge amounts of witnesses, huge amounts of potential victims. And so in these cases, there are very visceral descriptions sometimes of heinous crimes. And I think that as someone who does this work, you can't be someone who sees it as anything other than a puzzle. So you have to look at it and go, here's the different pieces of information. What I am doing is pattern recognition. I'm not here to emotionally invest in each of these victims or potential victims. That's not my role. There's therapists for that. There's other people who do that work. I'm here working with the police. I'm here working with lawyers. I'm here looking at it more sort of objectively to see how this all fits together. And so I think that's how I engage with it. I see it as this puzzle that I'm trying to figure out. I worry for my own brain that when I confront people and see them as a puzzle, which I do, I see the beauty in the puzzle. All the puzzles look beautiful to me. I'm sometimes like a Prince Michigan character from the area by the St. Yoskey. Where you just see it's not the good in people, but the beauty in the puzzle. And I think you can lose your footing on the moral landscape if you see the beauty in everything a bit too much. Because like everyone is interesting. Everyone is complicated. It's the classic scientist response as well to what other people in society go, oh, they go, this is horrible or this atrocious thing has happened or the shocking existential crisis inducing thing I've just found is giving me existential crisis. And scientists and they go, and you can see the delight in discovery as well. And I think sometimes scientists read as callus because we enjoy this discovery of knowledge and the discovery of insights. And it just feels like this little light bulb has gone off. And you go, I understand a tiny bit more about the human experience or about the world around us. And I think must be similar. I don't know that I feel or worry that I sort of become more quote unquote evil. I think it's more that you add this nuance, which I guess sometimes can be a strange thing to other people. So there's that. So when you speak with others, sometimes like even when I say we shouldn't use the word evil, people go, no, but you have to, does that mean you're trivializing things? And the answer is, no, I'm not trivializing. I'm just trying to understand. Also, like sympathizing or being empathetic towards people whom others have written off is always going to get that response from some people. And I mean, there are real questions around whom we're platforming and what that has and what role we have as content creators, both of us, of the people we talk about how we cover them. I often come across this in true crime work that I do because I get asked to do TV shows, I host TV shows, and I host BBC podcasts. And there's always the question of sometimes people commit murder to become famous. And should it be a blanket ban that we don't cover those cases? Or should we cover those cases, but in a different way? Or should we anonymize? So there's, it doesn't mean that you shouldn't never cover that case. It just means that you need to think about it. Speaking of which, you've done a lot of really great stuff podcast shows. One of them is bad people podcast. You go host it. It has over a hundred episodes each covering a crime. What's maybe the most disturbing crime you've covered? One of the most disturbing crimes that we covered on bad people. And just to be clear, bad people, much like the title evil, the sort of tongue and cheek, where the idea is it's people whom we refer to as bad people. And then it's always a question of like, who are these quote unquote bad people? And are we all capable of doing these terrible things? But one of the most certainly problematic dark cases that we covered was the Robert Picked and Case. And the episodes are called Piggy's Palace because that was the nickname for the farm where Robert Picked and brought victims whom he had kidnapped. And then he killed them and he did terrible things to their bodies. And rumors have it certainly that he fed some of these victims to pigs. Now one of the reasons I covered that case is actually because it was influential in my own career. So Robert Picked and is one of the most famous Canadian serial killers of all time. And as I was doing my undergrad at Simon Fraser University in Canada, I was being taught by someone called Stephen Hart. And Stephen Hart was an expert witness on the Robert Picked and trial. And so he was keeping us abreast of some of the developments of what he was covering. And I found it so interesting. And I loved Stephen Hart as a person. And he seemed to have the sense of humor, this gallows humor around it all despite being faced with one of the arguably worst people in Canadian history. And I thought that that was so interesting that someone could be so nice and so kind and so wonderful and be an expert witness for these kinds of people. And so that's one of the reasons I went into the field is because of this case as well. And so we had him on the show. So he came on to the bad people and we interviewed him for it. And he has done, I imagine a lot of really difficult cases. Yes, he's done a lot of difficult cases as have other researchers like Elizabeth Loftus, who's one of the main founders of the area of false memory research, which is what I also do. I do research on memory and false memory and witness statements. And Elizabeth Loftus has also been recently extra for the Elaine Masswell, Maxwell case she was in the press. And so she has worked with lawyers to educate the court on memory in lots of really, really controversial cases. But the way she would explain it is that it's still her role to just train people and teach people on how memory works. She's not there to decide whether people are killed to your innocent, but she is there to help people distinguish between fact and fiction when it comes to how our memories work or don't. So what kind of person feeds their victims to pigs? What's interesting about that psychology? Psychology about Robert Picton. I mean, he was a tricky person because I think he was profoundly lonely. And this is something we see with a lot of serial killers is that they have this loneliness, which I think also not only contributes to them committing the crimes in the first place, but also allows them to get away with things because they don't have as much of a social network or any social network that is helping them to do what's called a reality monitoring, to understand what's true and what's not. And so when you see people get radicalized in their own thoughts, whether that's in the sense of things like schizophrenia where you've got psychosis, you've got delusions, maybe command hallucinations, that's when you think you're hearing voices and someone is telling you that you have to do something, usually something harmful to other people. And if you don't follow those, you will hear those voices forever. They're profoundly distressing. And they are one of the aspects of schizophrenia that if you have it does make you more prone to violence. And so for these kinds of cases, if you don't have someone intervening, whether that's a family member or a therapist saying, how can you tell whether this thought is real? Maybe that thought, maybe you're not hearing that voice, right? Maybe that aspect of what you're thinking isn't true and bringing you back a closer to reality, you can just wander off to whatever alternate universe that you might live in in your head. And it's the same with radicalization in other contexts is that you see that people who drift more and more into a certain group that has certain beliefs that are maybe divorced from the evidence, divorced from reality, you can see that people will get more extreme over time. And unless you have a tether that brings you back that allows you to do reality monitoring, it's going to be very difficult to to find your way out of that. So with serial killers, we find this reality monitoring problem. And I think part of that's related to the lack of social networks that people have. That's fascinating. So that's one important component of serial killers. What else can we say about the psychology? What motivates them? So if you look at some of the famous serial killers, Ta-Bondi, John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, is there other things you can say about their psychology that motivates them? So interesting. Tether to reality. I mean loneliness is a part of the human condition. It is in fact one of its side effects as you can get untethered. And then with some of these brains, I guess the untethered goes to some dark place. The untethered goes to a dark place and it then is often combined with some of these other dark tetrad traits. So you've got someone who made these high on psychopathy, low on empathy, someone who's high on sadism, someone who thinks that it's okay to pursue your own goals. And your own goal can be like with Jeffrey Dahmer, you can be wanting to create the perfect partner, which in some ways seems to be what he was trying to do by killing people and piecing them together and sewing up a sort of new version. There's something in that where I can't help but go that so sad. I don't go, oh my god, how awful. And of course it's atrocious, of course it's heinous. But I have this real sympathy for that. And I think that's important for us to have, though, and not to say, I can't relate to this person at all, but to say that is an extreme manifestation of something I have felt. And the difference between me engaging in that and this person engaging that are these other factors. But the core is in all of us. Do you think all of us are capable of evil? Of some of the things we label as evil? I think all of us are capable of doing basically the worst things we can imagine. And one of the reasons I think that is because you can see neighbors turning on each other, especially if you look historically at the start of wars or big political moments where you have people who would have called each other friends, turning each other into the police, killing each other, doing terrible things. So I think all it takes is to become convinced that the people you think are your friends or actually your enemies, whether that's just in your own world or in a larger political national landscape, that I think I don't think it takes all that much for us to be capable of doing terrible things. But that's also why it's really important when things are good and when you're not at war and when you have the capacity to think deeply about important issues, to train your mind on these thoughts of knowing that things like loneliness can manifest in these extreme ways, that things like jealousy and aggression that they can turn into murder, that they can turn into these horrible versions. And to then also spot the red flags if you start going down that path. I think if we don't rehearse evil, if you will, we are much more like to engage in it, especially in those moments where we don't have much time or energy to really think about what we're doing. Yeah, I really appreciate the way you think and the way you talk about this. Listening to history, when I'm reading history books, I imagine myself like doing the thing I'm reading about. And I almost always can imagine that, like when I'm being honest with myself. And it's important to admit that to ourselves. And research on murder fantasies finds that most men have fantasized about killing someone, about 70% in two studies. And most women as well, more than 50% of women have fantasized about killing somebody. So murder fantasies are incredibly common. And certainly according to some researchers, that's a good thing. Being able to rehearse and think through doing the most terrible things is it's a great dress rehearsal for also how we don't want to live our lives. And only if you are able to fully think through what would I actually be like if I was engaging in this? What would I be thinking? Who would I be with? What would be my the group that I'm charging against this other person? Who am I there with? As you said, like really putting yourself in the shoes of these people who've done terrible things. That is how you also realize that you do not want those consequences. And so yeah, you maybe want to murder this person, but you don't really want to murder this person. That's that intuitive sort of animalistic brain coming in. But then luckily we have a higher reasoning that goes actually if you think this through, that's a pretty terrible consequence for yourself. So the better thing to do is not to murder this person. So I think it's adaptive to be able to fantasize and think about these things. Obviously, if you start getting to a point where you're ruminating and you're going in these circles where you're constantly fantasizing about doing dark things, especially to a specific person, I'd always advise seeing somebody to talk to a psychologist, for example, because that then does become a risk factor for acting on those dark fantasies. But up to that point, if it's just a fleeting thought or something that sort of in one day you have these thoughts, that is totally healthy, I would say. And also I think it's useful to simulate or think through what it would take to say no in that situation. Meaning once you're able to imagine yourself doing evil things, you have to imagine the difficult act of resisting. A lot of people think they would resist in Nazi Germany. Well, most people didn't. And there's a reason for that. It's not easy. Same reason, I've seen this, if something bad is happening on a public street, most people, it's the bystander effect. Most people just stand there and watch. I've seen it once in my life. Yeah, this is humans. So it's actually you want to simulate stepping up. Yeah, so it's also been called the heroic imagination. So someone who has studied evil quote unquote at length is called Phil Zimbardo. He did the Stanford prison experiment. And that was an experiment, which is, I mean, it's now been torn apart in various ways. It was absolutely influential for psychology. It's where participants were randomly assigned, whether they would be prisoners or guards in a mock prison experiment. And then for a number of days, they were told to do various things. And it got out of control, and the guards went way over what they were supposed to be doing, and they effectively started pseudo torturing some of these inmates or these pretend inmates. And the whole thing had to be stopped prematurely. But it was really fundamental in showing how just by randomly being assigned into guard, the person in charge or inmate, you can within a matter of days have a completely different way of thinking about one another. And so Phil Zimbardo has also spoken at length about evil and that all of us are capable of it in the right circumstances. But he also is a big proponent of what he calls the heroic imagination. And the heroic imagination is really what the purpose of everything I do is. The purpose of what I do isn't just to go, oh, this is curious. And to stop there, the point is to then prevent it. And to prevent it in ourselves, because that's I think ultimately what has to happen, you can't do a top-down sort of government level approach to trying to be so tough on crime that no one will ever commit crime, that's impossible. But you can change, so to say to the tack you wait, the hearts and minds of individuals, to recognize the pathways towards evil and to go, wait, I'm off track. I don't want to go this way. And I'm going to stop myself here and here so I can find my way back. And so the heroic imagination is exercising that I see someone on the street. How do I make sure that they're okay? How do I not become a bystander? And actually the bystander stuff is interesting because there was a really famous case, the murder of Kidi Genoveza. And there are all of these both ear and eyewitnesses. So an ear witness is someone who just hears things and an eyewitnesses someone who sees the crime happening. And they didn't intervene in the murder of this woman. And so this case was often taken as this almost example of, look how terrible human beings are. We just walk by, we don't care about what's happening to strangers on the streets. And actually what's happened since is that there's been lots of other bystander experiments and they have not substantiated this. So we need to be very careful with looking at these extreme cases and going how horrible that this happened to this one person. And it is. But that doesn't mean that that's always how it happens. And so actually what we find in bystander research is that most of the time bystanders do intervene. It's just when there has already been a crowd that has accumulated, you read the room and you assume, well nobody else is intervened yet. And so it must not be a real problem. That desire to not stand out in a negative way is often what hinders heroicism. I mean, that's why we look at heroes, people who, especially risk their own lives to save others, especially strangers. We see them with a sort of respect that nobody else gets. And that's because we recognize that we might not be capable of that. If I saw a stranger drowning in a river, would I really risk my life jumping in the river to maybe save them? I think that's a big question mark. And so when people do that, especially when people almost have this inherent reaction that they just jump in, they just go for it. That is something that is a really admirable quality in that we as humans do celebrate and we should. And I think often we should celebrate those incidents more and not the, you know, the bystander moments where we didn't intervene. We should be normalizing intervening. And again, again, this idea of heroic imagination, actually simulating, imagining yourself standing up and saving the person, when a crowd is watching their drowning to be the one that devs in, tries to help. You mentioned 70% of men and some large percentage of women fantasize about murder. And I also read that you wrote that recidivism for homicides only 1 to 3%. So that raises the question, why do people commit murder? Murder is a really interesting crime because most of the time it's perpetrated for reasons that we don't like as a society. So as a person who talks a lot to the news and also to producers here trying to make true crime shows who don't necessarily have a deep understanding of psychology, let's just say and to come at you with myths where you go, oh no, we're not going to talk about that. We're not going to talk about whether or not the mom is to blame for this person killing somebody. I hate that excuse. That's one of my least favorite sort of the trauma narrative of all people who do terrible things must have had a terrible childhood, I think is really problematic. What really happens in murder most of the time, which is not what you see on TV because it's really boring, is it's a fight that gets out of control. And if you look at the real reasons stated, it's things like this person owed me $4. And so I killed him. This person stole my bike. It's these really stupid reasons. And it is just this bad decision in the moment, an overreaction to a fight to an argument. And it wasn't planned. It's not some psychopath sharpening their knives, waiting for months to try and kill this person. And we don't like that because there's something called the victimization gap, which is that the impact of this extreme situation on the perpetrator, there's a huge gap between that and the impact on the victim and their family. So the victim loses the life. Whereas the perpetrator, sure, they get imprisoned, but that at best, right, if you will, in terms of justice, but they don't have the same kinds of consequences. And we don't like that. We like things that have extreme consequences to have extreme reasons. And so that's why I think there's this real desire to show serial killers and to show people who are in fact, planning murders for a really long time and then engaging them, rather than this fight that goes out of control or someone drink driving or someone who is, I mean, unfortunately, into a partner homicide is also one of those situations that is common, one of the top four reasons for murder as well. But that's not the almost glamorized version that we see of murder online or that we see in the news. So I think it's always important to talk about murder as something that is rarely inherent to an individual. Very few people want to murder. They might fantasize about it, but they don't want to go through with it. And very few people who do engage in murder want to do it in that instance, never mind again. I think in general, we have the way that we look at lots of crimes upside down. So we put murderers in prison for a really long time because we think that that's justice, which is, sure, if that's one version where it's an eye for an eye kind of life for life. There's obviously the more extreme version of that, which is the death penalty, which I don't adhere to, but I could see the rationalization of, you still somebody else's life so you don't deserve to have one. But there's also the other side, which is if we're looking at prevention, murder is really like, they're not going to, people aren't going to go out and murder again. So that is, that's a really low risk in terms of recidivism actually. And high risk are things like fraud and elder abuse and sexual violence. And so in some ways, sometimes our sanctions are upside down in terms of how we can actually make society safer and they're in line more just with how we perceive justice to work. So there's big fundamental questions about how we organize our justice systems and what we want them to be for. Can you just link on that a bit? So how should we think about everything you've just described for how our criminal justice system forgives? If there are very unlikely to murder again, how would you reform the criminal justice system? I think forgiveness is up to the victim's families. And quite often when you speak with victim's families, there is this divide where you have some who are much more keen on something called restorative justice, which is where they, what they want is for the person to apologize, the perpetrator to apologize, to explain how it happened. Also quite often, I mean, you look at some of the other consequences in the other context, it's sort of like teenage boys who are part of gangs, for example, is the other context. And it's a teenage boy killing another teenage boy. Like these are kids. And the parents of a teenage boy understand that. This isn't, you know, they don't think of this other perpetrator as this grown man who has, I don't know, I think we think of it as this fight between the parents of both teenage boys in that case. But really often what parents want is to just understand how this could happen. And in some ways to allow the other teenage boy to still have a life and to not steal theirs as well or his as well. So there's that restorative justice model where forgiveness, I think, belongs to the families. Some families, of course, want the most extreme punishment. That's also, I can understand how that would be a response that's triggered if you've suffered severe loss. But if we're looking to make society safer, putting people who have killed in prison is actually not the answer, right? Because if we want society to be safer, it should be based purely on what is most likely to deter crime and who is most likely to engage in it. And that's where I think we've got it upside down. If I could just stick to the bad people podcast, there's an episode on in cells called Black Pill are in cells dangerous. So are they dangerous? What's the psychology of in cells? So that episode was all about what it means to espouse certain kinds of views, especially about woman and what it means to be in an environment that is fueling the fire of while hatred of gender. And so and end the idea of entitlement. So I think one thing that we see often in crimes of all sorts actually is the sense of entitlement that drives the perception that I'm allowed to engage in X because of something else. And I deserve to have a life that looks like this, but I don't. And so I'm going to go take it or I'm going to go do something to show my dissatisfaction in life. And so if you think that all men deserve to have a happy life sort of a Disney version with with a woman at home who's taking care of the kids and this is sort of white picket fence ideal that we've been sold. We haven't told that that is what we should have. Like I understand where it comes from. And the question though is, are we entitled to that or is that the idea that that's something we should strive towards? And I think the answer is no, nobody's entitled to a good life. I would like to see freedoms and rights manifest in such a way that everyone is able to achieve the kind of life that they themselves want, but you're not entitled to it. And so that's where I think it can get a bit crossed and we can be sold these lies that are basically impossible for everybody in society to achieve. And and understand what people get angry. And if you're angry and if you feel entitled and if you're in this group where everyone else is thinking the same way as you, yeah, that can make you dangerous. And the internet gives you a mechanism to be yourself. And it can reinforce that worst self. You see other people saying, yeah, I feel the same way. Do you want me to help you? Oh, the internet. So one more episode, you interviewed the lady, Cecilia, who got Tinders Windult. Can you tell what happened with the Tinders Windult situation? So Tinders Windult, that was a person who pretended on Tinder to be a rich guy who had this lavish lifestyle and he would match with women on Tinder and very quickly loved bomb them. So he would send them all kinds of messages and immediately start being very emotional, very sharing, pretend that he's messaging from his private jets or actually message from his private jet, but pretend that he's in love with this person very quickly. And then he would invite women, in this case Cecilia, to very expensive luxurious dates. So he would whisk them away to Paris or he would show them his private jet or he would take them to a really expensive restaurant, almost approve that he, in fact, is this really wealthy guy. And he would simultaneously be building up the story of a future together. And you see this in people who are really problematic in relationships in a lot of way. I mean, this is not just in scams or in criminal settings, but problematic relationship styles often involves someone who is creating this idea of a future together that you can just see it now, you know, our kids in the garden running around. You're the only one for me. That kind of language, like almost planning your wedding on the third date. That kind of thing is what he would weaponize. And she Cecilia was looking for love. She wanted all of those things. And so it worked really well. And what he ended up doing is defrauding her of lots of money. And she ended up taking out loans. And her family were giving her money to help what he was saying was this critical situation, very classic fraud, this critical situation where he was being followed, he was under attack, and he needed her to pay for some things. He needed her to pay for some flights until she ran out of money. And then, then she realized that this all was big fraud. So it was a love scam. So the reason that we spoke with her is partly to show how it can happen. And I think it's really important to remind people that this is something everybody is capable of believing. Fraud works because people know what we want to hear. And they tell us the things we want to hear. And so I think all of us, there's a tailored version of fraud that could appeal to basically everybody if they have enough information about you. Yeah. And by the way, now in modern day, AI could probably better and better do that kind of thing. Do the tailored version of the story that you want to believe. And love is a topic on which that would be especially effective. Yeah. Because you're playing with people's emotions. And you know that they're vulnerable in that way. And most people want to be loved and want to love. And so it's a really manipulative way in. And it's I think is really horrible. But it's also something that we all almost underestimate. So we think I would identify fraud. I would know if someone's trying to scam me of money until it happens to us. And then we go, oh, wait, that that that did just happen. And then we get really embarrassed. And so I think talking about it's really important and seeing it as not the thing that happens to dumb people. Because that is sometimes how it's framed is like us such an idiot. You're so gullible. Was she or was she just a nice person who wanted to believe that this person was capable of loving her, which I would hope we all are. Yeah. And I hope she and others that fall victim to that kind of thing don't become cynical and keep trying. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Those kinds of things can really destroy your ability to be vulnerable to the world. But I mean, it sounds like this, this same kind of thing is just commonplace in all kinds of relationships. That's the puzzle of it. It could be if you find yourself inside of a toxic relationship with the quote, love bombing. It could be a lot of manipulative fraud type of things, right? Inside of relationship and spectrum. Well, in course of control is becoming more of an issue where that's when somebody, for example, in a relationship takes control of the finances. And that's often a man in a relationship that's sort of traditionally because it falls off and along these gender gender lines. But the problem is that that person then starts to weaponize the fact that they're controlling the finances and starts using words like, I'm going to give you your allowance instead of going, you've paid as much into this as I have. And so this is our shared money and starts using that and controlling things and controlling how the other person lives in that relationship. That's when you get into things that are called course of control. And things like jealousy can also be used in that way. Is there any way out of that? Maybe the jealousy study or is this vicious downward spiral? Whenever there's any kinds of signs like this, that means you're screwed, get out. Or is this just the puzzle of the human condition and humans getting together and having to solve that puzzle? I have non-traditional views on jealousy. I'm not a jealousy researcher, but I have done some research on sexuality. And I personally think that jealousy is basically always a red flag. Because what it means is that the person who is jealous isn't secure in the relationship and the reason that they're not secure in the relationship is either because a relationship is wrong for them or because they are insecure in themselves. And I don't think it is a sign of love. I don't think it is a sign of, you know, you want to protect your mate. I think it is mostly control. And it's the desire to control and to possess. And jealousy, we know as a precursor to intimate partner violence almost always. As in not all jealousy leads to violence, of course, but all violence is the jealousy as a precursor. And quite a lot of that is imagined things that the other partner is doing, not even based on reality. There we go back to our deception detection research where we're bad at telling whether someone's lying or not. And so if you're basing how you're interacting with that person on a faulty lie detector, you're going to make bad decisions. So the research also bears out that most people are really bad at monogamy. So most people either have cheated on a significant other, maybe not their current significant other, but a significant other, or have cheated multiple times. And that's just consistently found in the research. So maybe there's justification to be jealous? I think it's the other way around. I think monogamy is setting us up to fail. So I think monogamy is a social construct. That's a nice idea for some people. And I think that at least based on the research on how people actually behave, they're not actually behaving in a monogamous way. If you're cheating on your partner, that is not monogamy. That is polyamory potentially, so the love of multiple people. And it's lying. And it doesn't have to be that way. So I'm polyamorous. And I believe that you can love multiple people. I don't know that everyone is always going to meet lots of people at the same time that they're going to love. But I think that there's been a move towards more people embracing open relationships and non-traditional relationship structures. And I think that is healthy to at least have as an option. I think the idea that there's this one size fits all for relationships is really harmful to a lot of people. And it just doesn't really work for everybody. Well, if you could just focus in on one component. It seems to be one of the problems is honesty as a hard requirement and good communication as another hard requirement. Because that feels like the prerequisites avoiding all these problems. And I guess was jealousy when I'm thinking of it's actually not an instance of jealousy. So where you have a feeling of, I feel left out or I feel it's more that sort of persistent feeling of, I am a jealous person. And that's where I would say that is usually a red flag. And you're right. It's a red flag partly because it means the person's probably that communicating or you are as a couple. Like it's not necessarily just a jealous person's fault. It's just that there's something happening in this dynamic that is bad psychologically. And that should be addressed or maybe it's not the right relationship. So the fact that a lot of people cheat, does that mean every single person that cheated, does that mean they're probably not going to be good at monogamy? I guess if you can just analyze all of human civilization as a stance and give advice, this definitively true for everyone. That's exactly what psychologists do all the time. It makes me be mistaken. This is great. No, I just, I think it's really interesting. Because I see all those things as romantic choosing not to cheat. You're choosing to dedicate yourself fully to another person. So all this romantic and then some people do cheat and your heart is broken. You write a song about it. And then you move on. You try to repair yourself and be vulnerable to another human being and all that. But why deny yourself the beautiful spectrum of human experience? I mean, it's like eating one meal for the rest of your life. Like, why? You don't have to do that. You could just, you can have lots of beautiful people around. And, uh, well, so for me actually focusing on a single thing, you get to explore your mentioned puzzle over time. You get to see the nuance, like the beauty of the puzzle. You realize there's an infinitely long project to really understand another human being. And so like if you focus, you don't get distracted. So that applies. I'm a person when I find, when I find a meal, I really like I'll stick to it for a long time. I'm definitely a monogamy person, I think. But that also could be a component of like where I grew up, you know, there's a certain cultural upbringing and maybe my brain is not allowing myself certain possibilities, you know? I think it's more that I want people to feel like they have a choice. And that's the important thing. And I think all we see is monogamy everywhere all the time. And it's this one version of how we can live our lives. And I think it's not the only. And I think that having conversations with your partner as well, especially early, it's harder to bring this up later on. But to have it early and say, you know, how do you actually want to structure your life? And I think how do you want to structure your relationship as part of that? And especially if you're going to commit yourself to one person, one primary person or one exclusive person, that's part of it. And I think then you're also, you know, don't have to lie to each other if you do cheat or you can talk about it in a different way. If you feel like there's, you know, certain capacity to be honest about whom you're attracted to and how that might impact your life more generally. So how difficult is Paul A. M.R.I. I think a lot of people will be curious about that kind of stuff. Does jealousy come up? Is it difficult to navigate? Can be. I mean, all relationships can be difficult to navigate. I think it's the same. It's and the same risk factors if you're going in because you're trying to fix something about yourself, you're going to have a hard time. Much like if you're dating a single person, if you're trying to fix something, and this is going to be the solution to the thing that you feel is broken about yourself, it's going to be hard. But if you're going in, coming from a good place and you're going, you know, I want to be open and I want to connect with people and I want to love people or person, then you're going to have a better time. What's like the perfect Paul A. M.R.I. relationship look like? Can you really love multiple people deeply? I think so. You can love people in different ways and also you can love lots of people deeply, I think. And I think, again, it's some research on bisexuality. So I'm by, has also found that people who are by are more likely to be in non-traditional relationships. And one of the reasons for that is probably also because we constantly get asked to justify our sexuality as well. And so if constantly you're being asked if one person's enough for you, if one gender's enough for you, if you're in a relationship with one person, for example, you know, if I'm in a relationship with a man, do you miss women? And it's like, I don't ask you that if you're in a relationship with a woman, do you miss women? Like, you probably do. But that's just other woman than your partner. That has nothing to do with being by. And so I think there's this constant barrage of questions of what does it mean? Is it real? How do you choose? What does a relationship look like? Do you constantly want three? Some say, there's this constant hypersexualization also, especially of women that we find in the research that can also lead to really negative outcomes for mental health and for things like risk of sexual violence. But on the other hand, you've got bisexual people themselves saying, yeah, but I feel like I also have the superpower that I can love more widely. And gender doesn't really matter in terms of who I'm capable of loving. And so relationship structures almost come with that conversation. It's not that we need to be non-menogamous or that we need to be in these kinds of relationships. It's more that I think if you've engaged so deeply with your sexuality partly because society's forced you to, then you're also going to be thinking about really ship structures more generally and going, actually, I'm going to choose this one. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, your like sexual preferences and relationship structure preferences. Some of the choice has to do with house societies going to respond to it. So if you have to explain it every time you go to a party, you might maybe not want to do that or talk about or at least be open about it. Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of annoying conversations you have to do if you're polyamorous, like some of the which you've you've mentioned. And yes, there's effects of like over-sexualizing the people involved. Yeah. We're thinking they're lying. So I wrote a book called by the Hidden Culture, History and Science of Bisexuality. And I did that after I created a bisexual research group. So I wasn't a sexuality researcher, but as a bi person and a scientist, I was interested in the science of bisexuality. And I couldn't really find it. It was really hard to figure out what people were actually learning about bisexual people in comparison to other kinds of queer people. And one of the things I've found is that the terms that are used are not necessarily by. And so it could be things like blurry sexual. So if you type into Google Scholar, the word bisexual, you're going to get a lot of confusing things also because bisexual is used for like two sexes where you have multiple sex or you can change. And so they're bi-sexual. Right. Yeah. Which is different entirely. And so I think partly out of that, researchers started using words like blurry sexual and omni-sexual is another one. And so if you're looking for research on this, blurry sexual is probably the word. What does omni-sexual mean? It's the same. It's just another another word where it's all. So no is pansexual is also used. And again, the idea being that it's all genders. So how should we think about bisexuality? Is it fluid, like day to day, months to month, year to year fluid, who you're attracted to? Or is it at the same time have the capacity to be attracted to anyone or attracted to everyone? What's the right way to think about it? The right way to think about it is that I'm not attracted to most people, but I can be attracted to people regardless of gender. Much like you're probably not attracted to most people, but you are attracted to people of a certain gender, maybe. And so that's it's the same as being heterosexual in terms of potentially my pool of people who might might be interested in. It's just that the gender is irrelevant. What's the biggest thing that people misunderstand about bisexuality? The biggest thing that researchers find people misunderstand about bisexuality is that it's a phase and that it's this idea that it's transient, that it's always changing, and that it's a stepping stone. So I think a lot of people still see bisexuality as on the way to gay town, sort of like, you're on your way, but you haven't quite committed and you're still stuck in expectations of society. You haven't quite let go yet, but really you're gay. And that's especially true for men. And so when you look at research on bisexual men, which is actually how the research started. So I think now when we think of bisexuality, we think of women. And it's true that today, twice as many women identify as bisexual as men. But if you look at the history of this and the research on bisexuality over time, it was the other way around. So someone called Alfred Kinsey was one of the first sexuality researchers in recent history, certainly. And he after World War Two did this really big study of sexual behavior in the human male, it was called. He was a biologist himself. And so he thought in taxonomies and he was doing research on galllosses. So insects. And this idea of human sexuality was sort of thrown at him after the war because there's also this whole move to get people to reproduce and to rebuild America. And so sexuality was partly and sex specifically was becoming more of an area of interest, both in terms of research and in terms of policy and funding. And so Alfred Kinsey was asked, do you want to do a class on human sexual behavior? And he was like, I know nothing about this. And so he spent about a year listening to students' questions about like what they want to know about sex. And he realized that he was looking for research to try and build up this course that he was probably going to teach. And he realized that he couldn't answer most of the questions because the research hadn't been done. And so a lot of the questions were around what is normal? You know, if I feel this during sex, is that normal? How often do people have sex? Should I want these? What about these fantasies? What does it mean? What if I have homosexual fantasies? What if I engage in this kind of? And so he was looking at all of these questions and collating them. And then he went out and did these huge studies. And he interviewed thousands of people himself, but also at all these research assistants who are out there interviewing people in America about their sexual behavior, which I mean just picture the time. So the 1940s, this is quite a conservative time. I mean certainly more than we might expect now. And here's this researcher asking incredibly personal questions about thousands and thousands and thousands of people. And he ended up finding, and this is one of the big findings in this book that he published called Sexual Behavior in the Human Mail, which was a best seller for an entire year. He sold out auditoriums. They had to sometimes add the room next to the room he was in because there was so much desire to go to his lectures about sex that they had to like connect radios to other halls to give people enough spaces to sit down. He was basically a rock star. And again I think this challenges the misconception we have about sexuality that we think of it as this sort of woke thing now that the rainbow flag and all this stuff is sort of this modern invention almost. But if you that's this is the 40s, this was happening. People were going to these talks. People were having these conversations. And he created something called the Kinsey Scale. And so the Kinsey Scale is from 0 to 6. And he found that it was not useful to apply a binary to people's sexual desires and sexual orientation. It was more useful to put them on a continuum because most people were not exclusively homosexual or exclusively heterosexual. Most people were somewhere in between. And so 0 was exclusively heterosexual tendencies. And 6 was exclusively homosexual. And he would place people based on all the things they told him somewhere on the scale. And about half of men were somewhere in the middle, not exclusively either. And about a quarter of women. Now think about the time. There's a very conservative time. Well, in his post war though. So I think that mattered as well. So there's something called a homo social environment, which has nothing to do with being gay that has to do with being in a situation where you are with people of the same gender as you. So a homo social environment are things like prisons where you only have men or only have women. War, which at that point they just had. And so you have a lot of men who are exclusively in the company of men and maybe looking around going, well now that my options are different, maybe I'm going to choose from this pool. Anyway, so he found that it was that way around that a lot of people have these fantasies or or actions that they've engaged in. And then there are other researchers, other male researchers who found similar things. And then at some point in the 70s, it swapped. And it felt like maybe more people, more men were identifying as gay. And there may be less people who would have called themselves by. And suddenly this became a thing more for women. So I think that there's some social things going on. There's some research things going on. But actually by men have been studied for a long time as well. Okay, so these are a lot of interesting things. So there is a difference between the truth and the socially acknowledged thing. So there's social elements. I don't know, this might be anecdotal, but I know a few women, friends of mine who are identified as bisexual, I don't know a single guy friend who identifies as bisexual. They're either gay or straight. So there's still a social thing going on. Definitely. And I think that research consistently shows that bisexual men are more likely to identify as well as gay or straight. And gay, what depends. So if they have what you might refer to as a homosexual lifestyle, so they engage in sort of going to queer parties, maybe go on Grindr or other gay apps, that would be much more a lifestyle thing where you've embraced and you see this as part of your identity that you are part of this queer community. It's much easier to say you're gay than you are by most often. Also because there's queer phobia within the queer community. And so you might get gay men saying to a by man, ah, come on, you're act. I was by once, that's a classic. I was by once or a come on, you're actually gay. It's the same that you get the other way around with by woman is that because it's seen as performative, the idea being that bisexual women are doing it for attention, but the attention of men specifically that while they're all going to go back to men anyway and they're just doing it, it's a phase. It's this thing that they're doing actually to be sexy to men, not because they're actually interested in women. And so there's this lesbian by thing going on, which is often quite hostile, not always, but often. And there's this gay male by thing that going out, which is different in nature, but is also potentially hostile. So in both saying your bi can be, can be problematic, but for men more so. Do you like the Kinsey scale as a sort of very simple reduction to that there's a spectrum, also saw the client sexual orientation grid that adds a few parameters like who you're attracted to, how you're actually behaving, the fantasies you have, social preference, lifestyle preferences, all that kind of stuff, self identification, what you actually say publicly, all those different dimensions, or is the Kinsey scale like pretty damn good approximation. The Kinsey scales a good start and the client grid I think is much more fun in some ways. So the client grid came out of research by Alfred Kinsey and others like Half-Lock Ellis, but we won't get into him. And Fritz Klein was male researcher, doing research also on bisexuality. He was specifically a therapist and he was looking at people who were struggling with their sexuality. And so people would show up in the 70s and 80s in his practice and they would say, I'm struggling with my sexuality and he would say, how can I help you? And they would say things like, I wish I wasn't interested in men and I'm a man. And he would then work through sort of what that means. Does that mean you don't want to have these feelings? Does that mean that you don't want to have these attractions? Does that mean that it's the implications of like how your friends and family will see you? That's the problem. And so he created this much more complex scale, which I think is really interesting for everybody to no matter what their sexuality is. Because what it is is it gets you to think about things like, yeah, your sexual identity, easy. But not just that, but in past, present and ideal. And so if you say, well, I used to identify a straight, now I identify as bisexual. And then I have in my head. This doesn't mean that other people think this, in my head, I have an ideal, which could be straight because that's what maybe societies told us we should be. But it could also be something else. And so I've also had friends who've gone, you know, past, present, straight, straight, but ideal by. So you get into these interesting dynamics where sometimes people just wish they were a different sexuality than they were for other reasons. And then there's other things in the in the scale that ask about your lifestyle. So for example, if you are going to parties, queer parties, if you have queer friends, then you might have a homosexual lifestyle, even if you're straight. But then again, it's how much lifestyle would you like? And so for me, that was a real moment where I was looking at that going, wow, my lifestyle is really straight. And maybe I need to change this. And so he was using these attractions and fantasies and identities and the past, present, ideal to help people to think through all these complicated feelings we have around our sexuality and to identify problem like sticking points. Yeah, that's fascinating. So maybe the presumption there is if everything is aligned, the fantasies, the ideal part, all those things, that's probably the healthiest place to be. Right. And so he would look at, especially the ideal and the the present. And if those were different, so if you said, I wish I was by, but I'm straight or I'm by, but I wish I was straight. Or I'm homosexual and I wish I was straight. He would say, let's talk about that. And he'd try to work through it. And the term he used for bisexual people who were uncomfortable in their own sexuality was being a troubled bisexual. And so I think, you can, I think any sexuality can be troubled. I think you could be a troubled, straight person, a troubled homosexual person, a troubled asexual person. And just thinking about why, in which aspect are maybe missing, I think is really healthy for people to do. Meaning there's some puzzles that you haven't quite figured out, maybe you haven't been honest with yourself about your preferences, all that kind of stuff. I don't really like talking about honesty with yourself. I think that's a, it's a high bar. And I think it's also often weaponized against people, especially by men, or as this idea, if you're not really being honest, you're actually gay. And so I think this idea of we're not being honest with your own sexuality, that's a, that's a big word. I think it's more that maybe you haven't had the right framework or the right words to think about aspects of your sexuality that are troubling to how obvious when a person is bisexual, how obvious is it to identify like the sexual orientation grid? Like how big is the sign, whatever you are? I think the sign is smaller than we think it is. I think that there are, there's this tendency to assume that sexuality is something that we find and keep and consolidate from our teenage years, maybe early 20s. You maybe get university thrown in. So if you get your experimental years in undergrad, but then you kind of have to choose. And that is a difficult requirement, I think for a lot of people, because you can't possibly know all of the things and all the people you might be interested in at that point. And we change in every other way. Why wouldn't we change in this way? So I think giving ourselves also the ability to reappraise where we're at with their own sexuality, our own desires, our own relationship status, all these things is important to keep us happy and healthy and to not run into issues that we know are faced by a lot of homosexual but also bisexual people. Like researchers found that bisexual people are more like to self-harm. They're more like to be the victims of sexual violence, more likely to be isolated, more likely to be stalked. There's lots of different aspects of being by that are negative. And the reason for that is mostly because by people are least like to be plugged into the community. So when you're going through stuff like this and you feel different and you're constantly being asked about your sexuality if you're open about it or you're hiding it, that's also troubling. You're going to have these negative consequences, especially if you don't feel like the queer community is really a place for you. So that's what also finding your people really matters. Since we're on the topic of sexuality, one of the things you touched on in your book on evil was King's sexual fantasies. I think the point of describing that was that we often label that as evil or bad. What can you say about what you've learned from King's and sexual fantasies from writing that book? So the reason I included King's in evil and sexual conversations in general is because it is so often thrown into the same conversation. So if someone comes to me and says, Julia, I want you to help me explain why this person killed this other person. And they'll often say, did you know that he or she was also into insert King here or insert non-traditional relationship structure here or insert whatever? And I respond to that by going, okay, so. And I think people use these words like, oh, he was really into BDSM and think that that's going to have this really important impact on me or, oh, they were swingers. And so, and again, I go, yeah, that's, you know, almost like, and in other news, they were swingers. It's like that is not related to this crime at all unless, you know, one of the partners was killed. But people see this as a defective character. And King is very much seen as a defective character in many circles, especially in broader society. And that is wild to me because if you look at research on sexual fantasies and King's, a lot of people have at least one. So a lot of people, BDSM being the most common are engaging in or interested in BDSM. So things like choking or things like restraints or being degraded or doing the degrading of other people in bed, consensually, of course, that is something that a lot of people fantasize about and a lot of people engage in. And so these King's and these fetishes, they are much more commonplace than we sometimes think about them as. Now, on the other hand, we obviously need to be careful not to assume that because in pornography, BDSM is almost ubiquitous, it feels that that means everybody wants this. That is absolutely not the case. But we also don't want to marginalize it and say it's almost nobody. It's somewhere in between. And the main thing is always just to ask and to have open conversations about what it is that people actually want in bed and to make sure you have things like safe words. So, you know, putting in the restraints to make sure that these interactions are safe and consensual and then being able to explore. And I mean, there's everything from, you know, pop play where you dress up as a puppy and you engage in either just general frolicking or sexual behavior to other things like blood play, which is when you pierce the skin to release some sort of blood that can be scratching, that can be cutting, that can be of yourself or your partner, that can be this idea of, you know, I don't know, it's this taboo thing you're doing together and it's sexy in its own way. And so everybody has their own versions of what they find attractive and rubbing up against people, you know, sort of unsuspecting, pretending that someone's sleeping. There's, there's this wide range of things and I think people also feel often deeply ashamed about the things that they're interested in. And I think that is also really sad because it makes it more likely that people are going to not be able to live that part of themselves and also that they think there's something wrong with them. And that can spiral into things like am I evil? Am I bad? Am I a bad person because I have these fantasies? And that ties in unfortunately with homosexuality and bisexuality and the way that is certainly historically and in most parts of the world still today, these queer lives and queer identities are still villainized. They're still seen as lesser, as bad, as a sign of a defect of character. And if people see that within themselves, they're going to think differently about themselves and we, well society is going to treat them differently. So it's all about destigmatizing. I really liked what you wrote about. I guess it was in the context of BDSM or maybe say to masochism or maybe just the submissive dominant dynamic. Like why that might be appealing. The disinhibition hypothesis. I guess this applies generally to sexual fantasies is if you live them out that you could just let go of all the bullshit that we, that we put up in normal society, they could just be all in fully present to the pleasure of it. Right. And that's what researchers found on fetishes, especially on BDSM is that the reason that people say they like it. I mean, it's hard to explain why you have a fantasy. But if you go into the finer questions and really dig deep, you can find that people will explain a version of, well I can really like oh, and I don't have to, if someone is telling me what to do, then I don't have to make any decisions. And I've spent all day making millions of decisions and I don't have to in this context. And I really like that because it's freeing. And so that's that disinhibition hypothesis is that the reason that we often go to things in the bedroom that in other contexts we don't like or even find repulsive, like I don't in normal life, potentially want to be told what to do. But maybe when you move into the bedroom, you go yeah, but this is a different context. And I kind of want the reverse of what I want in my day to day life. And so I can also understand like furries and that sort of completely living as another species of it even is it's a really interesting psychological phenomenon of release and of letting go of social pressure. But I think that also applies to because you mentioned submissive that's more straightforward to understand. I think that also applies to dominant because like yeah, you don't have to walk on eggshells. It's the clarity of it. That was really interesting. Like, well, having read that from you that really made me think that there is a deep truth to that to like being true to whatever the sexual fantasy is. Like it's not just the fantasy itself that's appealing. It's the being free in some sense. It's the being free and the juxtaposition there is that you are free because of the fiction. Like you're play acting. But it's touching something deep inside you psychologically. And so that's where it sort of feels weird, but it also makes sense. I mean, this is also why we like fiction because it allows you to maybe be somebody else have someone else's thoughts in your mind for a while and you really get to live it as that for a bit. So I think yeah, the truth in fiction sort of circle is always an interesting one. So you've, you know, for researching the the buybook, the the bisexuality book, what have you learned about sexuality in general? Human nature kind of sexuality and how it's practiced in terms of different communities. And I'm sure there's like subcultures and stuff. Yeah. What have you learned? So the research on human sexuality, I think is interesting because we keep finding that people have these desires that they feel weird about, that they unless they have a community or an app that you can go to to live those fantasies, they can feel quite troubling to the individual and they can make you unwell. And that's true whether it's about your sexuality, so being gay and being unable to live as a gay person, or if that's wanting to engage in BDSM and not having an outlet for that. So that can just make you unhappy. So I think that the stigma there is that that unhappiness is going to lead to some sort of horrible manifestations of crime. I think that is mostly nonsense, but it's more that I'm concerned about the mental health consequences for the individual who's unable to explore those sides of themselves. And in research on kinks and sexuality, it's just about also making sure that we have physical representation of certain kinds of communities. And so that's one of the reasons I ended up writing by. I came out in making evil, making evils, the UK title, evil in the US. I came out because I was writing about all the things we associate with the word evil and homosexuality certainly is one of those things. You came out as bisexual by the way, yeah. Yeah, I came out as bisexual and I came out as bisexual in the book and I did it specifically and I wrote it this way as well because I was talking about the importance of visibility and how it's through visibility that you realize that the people around you, people you already know and love are part of this community that otherwise feels other, it feels foreign, it feels abstract and maybe it feels scary. But if you realize that actually you've got gay friends or you've got friends who are into certain kinds of fetishes or you've got friends who are whatever sexuality, sort of aspect you're talking about, you suddenly go, oh, it's going to be much harder to dehumanize these people. And this is where all of this kind of comes from me from a really sad place. There's the, you could talk about by as this project of love and how I was finding the community, I was trying to write something that would sort of bring us all together. But it's also because I'm constantly terrified that my rights are going to be stripped back. And we know that the laws around homosexual behavior and the rights around bisexual people as well, they're in flux. There's no straight line of acceptance. And just because right now I happen to live in a time in place where I'm allowed to be openly bisexual and I can engage in homosexual activity, that doesn't mean that that's going to stay. Not even necessarily in my lifetime. And so I think much like writing evil at a time when you're not at war and you're able to think really deeply about these important issues, I think we also need to be thinking about things like sexuality and other issues that are important to us. And if we want to preserve our rights, we need to normalize these issues and make sure that they're visible so that people find it harder to dehumanize those communities. And so I'm always terrified that bisexual people are going to be hypersexualized to humanize again, that it's going to be laws against. Basically, just who I am. Did you hear from a bunch of people after making evil after evil? The book I mentioned and coming out in that book and then I'm writing the bi book that are bisexual and maybe what are some stories? I'm sure because I haven't seen much material on it as you spoke to. So I'm sure they felt lonely without a community, right? Yeah, a lot of people felt seen by the book. So it was really beautiful, the fan mail I got when the sort of responses to the book. And I got them from all over the world. And so in the book, I also spoke with some researchers who were in like stationed or doing research in countries where bisexual behavior specifically is illegal or homosexual behavior was illegal. For a long time, bisexuality was especially in women, while actually homosexuality in women in general was sort of seen as it was a blind spot because what counted as sex is sex with a penis. And so women can't have sex with one another. And so a lot of laws around homosexuality are specifically applying to men. And certainly historically, that's the case. So we're talking about exotomy and that involves men and not women. And so if you look at the evolution of laws, for a while, women were kind of like it was socially not necessarily acceptable, but they were kind of getting away with it legally. But then more recently, especially as bisexuality gets more visible as well, certain countries have started writing it specifically into their constitutions and specifically into their laws that bisexual identities and papers are also seen as problematic and illegal. So again, these laws change all the time. But in terms of fan mail, especially from people in countries where homosexuality and bisexuality are illegal or are seen as problematic or socially condemned, that was particularly important. So those people were particularly writing saying, sometimes I was saying, can I translate this into this other language on the DL, like on the down low and just like distribute this to my friends? I had people sending me messages saying, I'm an ex airport or an ex country where this would be considered contraband, like this book. My book is a band book, fun fact. Nice. It was banned. I sold the rights to a foreign publisher and right after it was sold the lost change. And they sent me this really sad email saying, unfortunately, we can't publish your book because it's now considered part of the like gauge and a sort of promoting gay and homosexualized styles. And so we can't publish it anymore. But I take like a little bit of pride in the fact that it's a band book, but I find it really sad, obviously, as to what it means. But it also makes me feel like it's more important. And that's what people were writing to me about. What advice would you give to young people, I just people in general that are trying to figure out their sexuality or how to speak about their sexuality? I'd say try and read widely on issues around sexuality, books like mine, but also other books might help you to navigate whether or not your, you know, what labels there are. And also whether or not those labels are good for you. I think things like the client grid are really helpful, especially for people who are more analytically minded like you and I. I think it gives you a construct to work with and numbers to work with. And that can be really helpful to try and go almost seeing your sexuality as a mathematical equation. And I think that can be quite useful. And if that's how you think, then look at the client grid and see if that helps you to navigate things. A bit of a tricky question, but what are the pros and cons of coming up publicly as a non-standard sexuality? Was that from a recommendation perspective, what are some benefits and what are some challenges? So the benefits are that you can, well, live authentically, you can just be yourself. So I do feel more free in who I am and who I'm able to sort of be online, for example, now that I'm out. And because I came out after in my 30s, I think also it was almost a foot in the door technique as well, which is the psychological technique of first coming in and then coming with your big ask. And so I had already published two books. Yeah. I was already an established scientist. I think if I tried by first, I ate wooden to vinyled to publish the book. It was the first mainstream book on bisexuality ever. And B, I don't think I would have been taken seriously as a scientist. And so having the other stuff first and then by a sort of a side project, that was acceptable. But I think the other way around wouldn't it? I think it was still brave. I think I think you mentioned somewhere maybe an interview that there was some concern of being sexualized when you covered the topic of sexuality. There still is. But I actually find that it's done the opposite most of the time. So I think as a woman, especially a young woman who's in the public eye, you're sexualized anyway. Unfortunately. And so that is and was already a huge part of my online experience. And actually, I think coming out as by eight, you get sort of allies who suddenly are like, we're on your side, we're going to help you fight sort of the hyper sexualization. And people get more, almost more weird about it in a good way. They get a bit quiet about it because they're like, oh, well, now it's an identity thing. So maybe I shouldn't comment on what she's wearing. And it sort of it almost disarmed some of the more sexualized comments. So for me, I have to say it was mostly a positive experience. The insults didn't know what to do with it. Exactly. Just to go back to the beginning, maybe what got you interested in criminal psychology? Well, if you look at my trajectory into academia and then through it, basically what happened is I was ready to go study art. That's what happened. I had my portfolio ready to go. I was going to go study art at undergrad. And then my grandfather intervened and was like being an artist is a really hard life. Maybe you should reconsider. What kind of art started to take that tangent? Painting. That is fast. I would not have expected that because you're so super analytical. Yeah, I am. But I also, I really like surrealism. And I really like messing with sense of reality, which again is obviously something that then will fits way into my academic work. But he was also right. I mean, I, I've always been very intellectual, let's just say I skipped a couple of grades in school. I was part of the chest love. Like it was very much. I was the clever kid. And so, but there's also part of me that's just like, but art is beautiful. I love making art and it can speak to so many people. Anyway, my grandfather convinced me not to do it. And then I applied instead for psychology. Although at that point, you just had to say social sciences. You didn't have to yet, especially, but I knew it was probably going to be psychology. And the reason for that was because my dad has parents, it's for any of them. And so, I think one of the reasons I'm so obsessed with this idea of what is real. And, and that is in every way that that I mean that in terms of what is real in terms of perceptions of right and wrong, what is real in terms of our own memories of the world, what is real in terms of what happened in a crime, what is real in terms of perceptual abilities and neuroscience, what is real. I mean, I mean, that on in every way. And I think that's because I grew up with someone who had a unique view of what is real in real time. And so, seeing that, I think, just affected me profoundly because not only was it very destabilizing in terms of my upbringing, but also is just in your face that people quite literally are seeing and hearing different things than you. And to not jump from that to what else are people perceiving differently than me, I think would be almost like a missed opportunity. And so, I went to study psychology partly to understand that and what was going on there. And then that took me down the sort of reality hole. And honestly, the reason I went into cromol psychology, because I could have gone into any other. The cromol psychologists were the most they were the most fun. I feel like lots of psychologists, they took themselves so seriously. And I just I couldn't. I was like, I don't at this isn't the vibe. And so, the cromol psychologists were they had this gallows humor. They were doing these like arguably the most serious of the crimes in the in the cases. And yet were somehow having fun and having nice lives. And I saw myself and I went, well, I want to do this version. And so I did. Yeah, that's great to hear that cromol psychology, because probably they have to really, whether any any other subfield confront the reality of the mind. And it's often quite procedural. So, I'm also much more interested in applied sciences, because I like the idea of, you know, what do we do with this information? And the thing that interests me most from a research perspective, I mean, I did my PhD in false memories. So, implanting false memories of committing crime, which was the study that ended up going viral, because I was the first to do it. And I'd built on a history of people implanting false memories of various kinds of other emotional events. But it was the first time that someone had combined false confessions research and false memory research. And so that was the research of Elizabeth Loftus and Saul Casson. So, false confessions was Saul Casson and false memories was the Elizabeth Loftus. And I was just doing them both at the same time. And the question was, could you get people to believe that they committed a crime that never happened and confessed to it? And not just that, but believe that it actually happened. So, remember it. And the answer to that in short is yes, you can, especially using specific leading and suggestive interview techniques. And so the procedural learning from that, which is what I'm most interested in, I don't like that sort of a party trick to be able to actually do it. And that's just so that you can then take that and go, okay, well, how do we prevent this? And so I've since trained police lawyers, I've trained people at the ICC, the International Criminal Court, who deal with collective memories. So they deal with hundreds of witnesses at a time and war crimes. And the question is, how do we try to preserve as original as possible memory without contaminating it? Because, well, or at least without contaminating any more than it already is. And that's where social psychology, I think, excels is that we have done lots of research on how social settings change what people say and to some extent what people believe. And I think that's also where actually the leap to things like AI, I think, is not far because ultimately the way that we're engaging with large language models is that, and generative AI in general, is that it's structured as its social interaction, structure as a conversation, most of the time now. And that is what we do. That is literally what I train the police on doing is how to make sure that you don't distort people's memories in the process and how to ask a question. And so you get confabulations from both sides now. It confabulations from AI and from the people. And the problem is that there's a third thing which is the in-between that I'm not sure is getting enough attention right now. And I wish that there was more integration of social scientists like me and people who do investigative interviewing and have done it for decades to understand what is happening in the in-between and so that we can both teach the people and the AI to respond better in that situation. I mean, that's really interesting. Are you saying that there is a drift of some kind in terms of on both AI and human side when they're interacting together that we need to be very clear about? Yes. There is what we've created with Gen AI is basically the ultimate false memory machine. We have created a tailored experience of something that is most of the time telling you what it thinks you want to hear. And then it's uncritically giving that to you or I mean sometimes of course there's you know other things were sort of appraising whether or not this is truthful or not. But it is giving that to you and there's no safeguard from you just going this is truth and this is my past or this is how I remembered it. And the problem is is that not only is AI potentially distorting people and their memories and never mind the factual basis on which they're relying. But it's also the other way around is that potentially by asking leading or problematic questions the people are changing how the AI is creating the content which is in turn on some fundamental level potentially having an impact on how it's discerning truth from fiction. And so that's where the false memory and human minds and confabulations in AI I think are much more similar than we think. And when I first saw AI confabulate hallucinate I was like this is what people do all the time. It's just that we can't fact check them all the time. We're not in a conversation constantly being like wow is that quite right? I'm going to use that for my homework right? So it's oh just it's both juicy and really troubling. Well right now the interactions are pretty ephemeral they're short lasting and there's not really a deep memory to the interactions but this could get a lot worse if the AI is personalized a degree where it remembers things about you so that you can then start to over many interactions feed the narrative about your past that you construct together with the AI over time. But you don't even need that. So this is what we find an investigative interviewing which is police interviewing of witnesses and suspects is that all you need is a leading question or a suggestive piece of information in a short interaction. Most people most police officers don't spend a long time and they don't have no memory of this person's past. They don't basically nothing about them except for things related to the crime. And yet we know that within that very short maybe half hour one hour interaction people stories can change fundamentally and the problem is that if you create if you have a memory of something that when you pull it up in that social interaction it's it's sort of live it's like active and when you then finish that interaction it sets back down and the thing is that if you put it back in a different way what's going to happen is the next time you're going to remember the latest version and you might not realize that it's shifted and so over time it can shift and you don't realize it and that's your truth and that's where even just short interactions can have a profound impact on the human mind. Wow. Do you can modify memories that quickly? Yeah we do all the time in experiments. Okay can you speak a little bit more to false memory so like that's just fascinating. So things happen to us we humans do things in the world and then we remember them and most of our lives I guess is lived in memory and remembering the things that happened to us and you're saying that we can modify the story we tell about the things that happened to us that's fascinating so what do we know about this our ability to have false memories? We know that false memories are common that they're a feature of a normal healthy brain they're not this glitch they are a feature and we know that false memories are incredibly common in terms of if you think about basically any memory now I'm interested in autobiographical memories this isn't memories of facts this is memories of experiences things that you've lived in some way and of those autobiographical memories basically every single autobiographical memory you have is false the question isn't whether it's false the question is how false you're despairing over there well I mean yeah that's I mean it's both beautiful and terrifying that nothing is real no it's not that's not what I'm saying okay I'm just saying that everything has a degree of falsehood to it and this is where sometimes I'll get accused of being like oh but that does that mean we can never use witness statements that I'm not saying we can't use any witness statements I'm just saying that we need to be careful because even if people say things with confidence it doesn't necessarily mean they're true or if they have multi-sensory details they're describing in very specific detail what they smelled what they heard what they take whatever it doesn't mean it's necessarily true most of the time our autobiographical memories are good enough and that's where memory scientists talk about this as just memory or just memory for events much like for text you get the gist of it right you you're good enough you generally remember accurately approximately what happened but it's when you get to the so-called verbatim details the specific details of memories that you find people are often really bad now most of the time that doesn't really matter because you remember you hung out with a friend you remember you were at this university you remember approximately what what your favorite cafe was you remember this important negative or positive event fine you don't actually need to know exactly what you were wearing and drinking and saying but in a criminal justice setting you do need to remember exactly what you were drinking and saying and then doing right and so that's where we have this need to break down this human capacity for memory to this level of detail that is just not made for so that's where the verbatim stuff can get you into trouble because with criminal cases as suppose the tiniest details really matter because then the lawyers can like really zoom in on that particular detail and then you can just make that up and then the interrogation with a leading question as you were saying can just alter your memory of a particular detail and then everything will hang on that detail right and if that particular detail is someone's face then that's a really big problem right and so and and it can also be an entire false memory so this is where in my research and in research like mine we've implanted it's well memories what we call memories or false memories of experiences that never happened at all so while most things are modifications of real memories false memories complete false memories are when you think you experienced something that you didn't and we all have them we all have some memories that can't be true and we usually realize them for example when we talk to our parents about our childhood or when we talk to friends and we say remember that's how we did this and your friend will go that happened to me that didn't happen to and you become what is known in research as a memory thief where you've stolen somebody else's memory and you've accepted it or your brain has accepted it as your own and that's possibly because the other person told it in such vivid detail that you could imagine it and basically your brain was like well this feels real now and so the next time you thought about that maybe maybe not the next time but maybe after a couple of times of thinking about it you started going this happened to me right and then you integrated into your autobiography how hard is it to insert false memories not hard it's very easy to distort memories or to his small false memories it's harder to convince people of entire events especially specific events and this is widely debated exactly how easy it is to implant a specific false memory it's also one of the big debates around my own research is that when I was writing the memory illusion which was my first book and the research that was in line with that there was a huge debate between me and a couple of other academics about what it means for something to be a false memory and how we should talk about the ease with which they're implanted and that is still one of the biggest scientific debates in our field and to me I think that's so the the coding stuff is about the difference between what some people call a false belief and a false memory so I think this thing happened or I remember this thing happened and that is a really difficult differentiation often because all we have as social psychologists is what you're telling me and I can ask you do you think it really happened or not do you believe it really happened but it's really hard to differentiate and so I've always thought that you need to ask people about the specifics like how confident are you in this memory or do you feel things in this memory does it feel like other kinds of memory to sort of the Nate like describe the nature of this experience rather than being like do you think this is a real memory because that's that's a hard thing to ask people to do so you want to get indirectly as many signals as possible to show that they actually believe the thing happened or that it approximates a memory in their minds that's right rather than just the thing they think kind of sort of happened yeah but other people think that it's an easier to differentiate lines so for me that different that it's almost impossible to differentiate the two other people think it's more clear um and then in terms of the frequency so in my research 70% of people became convinced that they committed a crime that never happened or experienced another important emotional event and that number as well is challenged and that people go well does that mean that 70% of people can have false memories like this and the answer is no obviously not that's just in my sample that's just these specific six false memories and it could be that I think 100 percent of people are prone to some version of this just maybe not in this specific study right that if I had to come up with different false memories implants or if I was a different person myself and people trusted me differently there's again those social factors that make it more or less likely that I am going to be able to convince you that something happened in your life that you can't remember and in one study obviously I can't capture that but it also doesn't mean that 70% of the time people are you know it might be one percent of the time or zero point one percent of the time that people have these complex false memories I guess you're just speaking to the fact that you don't know how represented the sample is but even with one study that's a crazy that's that's incredible well it's not just representativeness it's also that we shouldn't take individual studies in that way sure like I'm not saying that 70% of people always have false memories either like it's it just means in this one study more people than not develop these complex memories what was the methodology for implanting the false memories this is so cool by the way I just see your memories so fascinating and the fact that we're going to engineer memory it's so interesting it's also really interesting that we live so much of our lives and memories and that they can mess with that you can shape it it's interesting it's mostly I think a good thing that we can shape it I think so I think the the fact that memory can be false in the way that I do it in my studies it's the result of the fact that our minds are made to creatively recombine information to solve problems in the present and so even the fact that we have this just memory it's because we're optimizing data processing we're basically saying these are the most important things from these events and the other details are relevant don't remember that gone and now I'm going to work with that to try and solve what life comes up with and the ability to be creative and intelligent relies on our ability to take memories from the past and pieces of them and to creatively recombine them and so that's what false memories are except that that then can look bad if you're trying to remember something specific and so in my research I used leading and suggestive questions like closer eyes picture the event that I'm trying to implant so I was implanting for example you're 14 years old you were in contact with the police the police called your parents and you assaulted someone with a weapon and then the question is what do you remember and you say to me as a participant because you've been selected out to specifically never having had this experience and just to be clear a weapon I don't mean a semi-automatic weapon I mean anything and usually it was a rock and so people would say I found that because a weapon is just anything you used to hurt another person and I did the study in Canada we don't have guns in the same way as in some other parts of the world and so it was unlikely that my participants would have been like yeah I totally have all these guns and so they would take something an object and hurt somebody else or they stole something or they hit somebody so those are three of the conditions and I randomly assigned people to them and they knew that I'd contacted their loved ones ahead of time so they they were participating in a childhood memory study an emotional childhood memory study and they knew that and then I'd contacted their parents ahead of time to get information about what they were like as teenagers where they lived friends basic things and to make sure they hadn't ever experienced any of the target events and then with that information I said to the participants okay so there's these two things your parents report happening and one of them is a true one and so I'd always include a true one to build rapport which is I'm doing the what not to do of interviewing right right I'm I'm laying it on thick to see what's possible to see what's possible because you have to to push it to also show that it's create that I can do this in this context so that we can warn police to not do this so I said we had these two instances that your parents reported and one of them was you had a skiing accident blah blah blah let's start with that one the second one wasn't instant where you were in contact with the police but we'll get to that so we'd first have 20 minutes talking about the true memory which people you know they're they're getting going it feels good I've got a structured interview as well which I'll then mirror in the false memory so it all feels very legit and then we get to the second memory and I say this you know I there's this other important memory that your parents were called and then they'd say I don't remember that and I'd say oh okay but I have this really detailed account all you have to do is remember it and then I would do the illusion of transparency which is a really powerful psychological tool which is to make people feel like they know what's going on when they don't really and the the thing I would do is just say well you know if you want to we can do this memory retrieval technique called this imagination exercise and I don't like to call it repression but sometimes we hide away memories that we don't like about ourselves and I'm using words that people know and mechanisms that people have heard of that are frankly quite disputed in actual science but people go oh well maybe I did repress this and then everybody says yes technically they could say no they could say no I don't want to do that but they go yeah of course I want to know and so I do this imagination exercise where people close their eyes very simple and just imagine how it could have happened basically and every time they say a detail my very first detail ever I remember this because they were so excited because they've got their eyes closed right and I'm right next to the head of department because they were worried because I was a PhD student that's you know the ethics of it the content of it took like years to get the protocol through ethics and to make sure it was safe anyway I'm I'm grinning as the person with their eyes closed says the most trivial detail I remember a blue sky and I remember going it's working did you know what's going to happen at all oh no I had no idea that's so fascinating and so from the trivial details and I'd always say yeah good job good job you know social reinforcement little little treat little treat and they would remember more and more details and then they get more specific and then they tell me who it was they allegedly attacked or stole from where they were and those details had to come from them because I don't know enough about their lives right so the same thing with false memories is it spacing it on lots of real pieces of memories real places real people real feelings they're just woven together in the way it never happened and so just three interviews and you've got 70% of people confessing to current that never happened first of all great study great great job all around to what degree has this been sort of elaborate on improving further since this is a super powerful idea well there's 70% or any kind of percent what I wanted with the study is just to show it's possible that's that's really the powerful thing that is possible right and so it could have been two people and I would have been happy the fact that it was so possible was frankly quite surprising to everybody and we did in fact cut the study short because we told ethics that we're only going to have like a 13% hit rate we're like oh this is working really well we're going to stop so and and that was just because of you know how power calculations whatever science because science and since then there have been other studies on implanting false memories there have been ones also using AI tools so like whether or not we remember or think we remember incidents differently or better if they were created with AI images of ourselves or videos so there was a study that came out I think it was this year including by a team including Elizabeth Loftus which showed that if you turn photos of yourself into videos using AI that you are more like to believe that those things happened in the way that AI is telling you that they did even though AI has absolutely no idea and that then you are more like to remember it with high confidence that it happened in the way that this AI has created and so we can see that there's lots of versions of this whether it's you know interpersonal social interactions or interactions with tech and there's a big replication that's happening right now at the University of Mustache of my study or it's about to happen hopefully actually is where we're at there's a lot of questions I want to ask you really one of them doesn't this mean that at scale you can have something like a government use propaganda to mass gas light a population so implant false memories using AI using using whatever tools they have yes that is definitely already happening that's terrifying is there anything you've learned about defending against that yeah I guess knowing that first step is just knowing that it's possible that's already a very powerful piece of knowledge that's right so the first thing that's important is for people to understand that they are capable of creating these false memories and that they're not this really unusual hard to generate thing that they're actually a normal memory process and that insight is why I wrote the memory illusion is because I think people need to just understand that their minds work like this and that they're really glitchy when it comes to the accuracy of their autobiographical memories but again that that's probably ultimately a good thing as well in terms of our overall human experience but then what happens if you do have an important piece of information that's important to not being distorted right you are a witness of a crime for example and you now know that this is going to be important what do you do and the really simple answer is don't trust your brain just make sure you write it down assume you are going to forget everything assume you're going to forget no matter how important how emotional how intense how much you say to yourself this is the failure of prospective memory it's called I will remember you won't just assume that you're not going to remember and the closer you get to the time at which an event happened and we call this contemporaneous evidence the closer you get in time the more high quality that memory is going to be and I think there's this myth sometimes that like if you're drunk or if you're high or if you're really emotional that that's somehow you should wait should sort of like go home sleep it off and then recall your memory that is not what the current advice in memory research actually says it's in the moment as soon as possible we write it down record outside your brain you can do it again when you wake up but then at least you have an original version yeah you you use the analogy of a Wikipedia page for memory I think it's pretty useful way to think about it it's kind of crowdsourced by all the different influences you have all the different experiences all the other people you telling other people about the memory that interact all of that edits the page the Wikipedia page of your memory it does and collective and individual memory are these really interesting the interact in a really interesting way so I would always say is when I train for example people who go to deal with warlords in the German military I was working with agents who are going abroad and who are in these really difficult situations where they had to remember a lot of information that was important for national security they couldn't just sit there with the tape recorder being like hey or like a phone being like hey mister warlord can you just talk into this a bit closer you can't do that and so you have to remember it and so what they were doing is they were coming back from their deployments and they would meet up immediately and have like a team meeting to be like what did you remember what happened and the problem is that they would do that before writing their notes and that is that is the wrong way around and so they don't do that anymore because I've told them not to do that anymore but it feels good feels like collectively we are going to remember more details because you do but it doesn't mean that those details are right and so that's where I'd always say have your own version before you talk to anybody then and my colleague dr. Analy's freight available is one of the experts on the effect of things like eye closure on memory and collective memory and she has found repeatedly that if you remember things together especially if you've already got an original version of your own you do usually remember more details and especially if you are helping each other to remember like in a relationship you'll have someone who's better remembering certain kinds of details maybe names or what happened or what you were doing and the other person's better at when it happened and so you can have these complimentary memories that come in in social situations and you can then have more details that are remembered after. Right but there's conflicting forces here so that's true but also as you said it's true that together you can weave a narrative that never happened so together you can solidify the thing that actually happened maybe if you take notes beforehand but at the same time if you don't take notes you can just make shit up very effectively together because you're like yes ending the whole time like building together a castle that's false or distorted distorted yeah but you can also sometimes go back to your original account and go actually know that that was a bit wrong and so my as again an analytical person and someone who works as an expert witness on memory cases I just want to see all the versions I want your version history I want the complete version history of your memory and then I can tell you whether I think things have gone wrong here and if so why have you seen like different versions of memory and they're really conflicting like what have you learned about memory from that that they can be very conflicting people explaining the same experience and it's very different well there's different people having very different memories of the same experience and there's the same person having different memories of the same experience and so I work in both in some ways as an expert witness but mostly in the individual changing their story in a dramatic way oh yeah so witness or a intelligent victim saying that they you know having X story the first time they go to the police and then three years later having a very different sometimes categorically different account and the question is are they just were they just too shy initially to say what really happened where they were they under pressure from other people were they not really remembering you know why has it changed or could it be that they have been undergone some really problematic like hypnotherapy or just shady therapy in general that is like convinced them that things are maybe much worse than they initially remembered and it's not that therapy doesn't like therapy can bring out more details for sure but the problem is that certain kinds of therapy mirror what we do in false memory research in terms of implanting false memories and it just makes it really messy and you just it makes the quality of the evidence really low because we can no longer tell what is because of the therapy and what's actually remembered this is so fascinating what are the ways you can possibly figure out which is true the thing you're remembered initially or the thing you're now remembering four years later receipts so you got you have to look at your original versions if you only have your version now the only thing you can look for is evidence that confirms or shows that it didn't happen if you can't access that then it ultimately is a matter of especially if you've got like two people saying complete everything it ends up being a a battle of confidence ultimately this is tricky question but you understand therapy it does seem like what therapists do is they want to find a problem and they can then just project the problem and then convince you the problem existed so how do you know is like therapy even an effective it takes a very special therapist not to implant right a trauma that never happened or details that ever happened to a trauma that did it depends on the kind of therapy so there's a lot of therapy that is evidence-based and that is very much focused on tackling sort of feelings and reactions that you have right now then there is a an area or a bunch of areas of therapy including psychoanalysis which are very focused on trying to find retroactively sources of mental illness in your personal past and I am very critical of the kinds of well both from an explanatory perspective but also from a false memory perspective I don't think that we are the way we are because of individual instance that happened to us I think that is a wild thing to think about the brain like to be like you are the way you are because of this one interaction you had that one time is like I mean maybe this explains a tiny bit of you but what about all the other life experiences you have every single day and so I think that there's sometimes an oversimplified searching for answers or sources of problems that we have that I I don't like I don't think it's true and I think that there can be an unconscious approach to memory as you were saying where you have someone who is saying things and your role as a therapist is to help them manage their emotions now and to feel better and that's the other thing is that they have very different role than I do the therapist is trying to manage the person's well being now whereas I am looking at the evidentiary quality that is a complete I'm almost like you're not quite the other side but I'm in a very different role you are you just want the truth well I'm criticizing slash analyzing their memories whereas the others the therapists are more like to be trying to help to manage the memories in their day to day life and so it doesn't matter if they're true or not therapists what matters is that they're troubling to the people themselves but once you get into a courtroom setting as you say the facts and what actually happened matter and it's not just what you remember it's what actually happened maybe you can speak to the other the non-court room setting because this is all the positive side of it is you can basically shape your memories to be happier I mean I find this in myself maybe you could speak to that if I you know looking at past relationships if I just think about or maybe speak to others about the positive things really think just think like I focus my mind on the memory and the positive memories and then everything just becomes more positive and I think it makes me feel like I'm way happier about my past so there must be something to do that because I almost start to forget that the negative stuff happened and then the same thing on the flip side is if you focus on the negative then the negative stuff just overpowers everything else and you have a very heavy negative feeling about your past so that seems like the way to live the healthy life a happy life is just to focus on the positive not the sound cliche but like basically modifying your memories continuously that everything was just great is there something to that well the essence of that is right there is something called state dependent memory which is that you're more like to remember things that were consolidated or created as memories if they match the state that you're now so if you are sad now and you your brain sort of just going you're more like to remember other sad times because your memory and the emotional state of your brain is basically already activating those networks of sadness and it's like here's some other sad things and shitty things that happened to you and it's the same with if you're embarrassed it's that's the sort of classic one that we usually use as memory researchers is that moment where you do something embarrassing and for the next like six hours all you're thinking of is all the other embarrassing things you've ever done and it's like your brain is like would you like some other embarrassing stories and obviously you're going no thank you um please stop but you have this spreading activation as it's called of just this synapse is just like lighting up new networks and you're going ah and there's this other memory that's attached to the same feeling and so it's the same with happiness is that people who are happier tend to remember more happy memories and so most of the time unless you're depressed most people look back at their lives with a sort of rosy reminiscent spias and they're more like to remember the positives than the negatives but it's not quite the way you were describing it actually so it's not quite that you only remember the good the objectively good things that happened it's more that your interpretation of the things that you've experienced is either neutral or positive so for me for example growing up with my father with apparently schizophrenia that is something that I see as a net positive so obviously at the time it was experienced in a complicated way but in hindsight it defined my life and it completely gave me a perspective of the human mind that I just wouldn't have had otherwise and so I see that as a positive part of my autobiography and that is what good therapy should be doing as it should be taking negative experiences and not overriding them or changing them I mean our brains do that naturally anyway but trying to work with what you've got the experiences the true experiences but then just shifting the emotional content so that how you're dealing with them now is good how much of what this Danny Conoman type of idea that we live a lot of our life in memory like it's not you know the there's the direct in the moment experience of a thing and then there's remembering that thing over and over and over and over so there's like I don't know getting married or whatever like some pleasant thing that if you over a lifetime the pleasure you derive from that thing is disproportionately most of it is from remembering the thing we're experiencing it is there is there something to that? I think so and his experiments where he asked participants if they were offered this holiday that they could go on but they wouldn't remember it so they'd have the present day experience of enjoyment in this on this holiday I think it was a tropical vacation or something that he'd not to be people and he he then said well but you're not going to be able to remember this would you still go and a lot of people say no I wouldn't go on that holiday if I can't remember it um I think that's interesting and I think that sort of picks or it didn't happen so the social media generation obviously is perhaps even more in line with that also in terms of how you deal with that in social context sort of sharing those memories with others and those experiences and which experiences end up being the important ones in our lives yeah there's a real case to be you know there's this kind of ridiculous thing that happens now whenever something cool is happening people take out their phones and film it but the case for that is that yeah this gives you actual something to look back at that it's worthwhile to take a picture actually although it's even more worthwhile to pay attention so attention is the glue between reality and memory and so if you're using your phone to not have to pay attention and not have to put any work into remembering it then you're going to look at that picture later and go what was this because you've tried to outsource it in a way that our brains will work how hard is it to modify memories from a neuroscience perspective so if you look at brain computer interfaces like neural link for example do you think there's a future where we're implanting or modifying memories directly yeah I mean that's basically what we do as human beings already and I don't see why tech couldn't do exactly the same thing just speed that up so right now we can do that with language right yeah we just talk to each other and modify them and we just speed that up language but also think about it yourself so you can it's called auto suggestion when you suggest things to yourself that didn't have been and that often comes from reading something or seeing something or thinking about something or hearing somebody else's story and going to something like that happen to me and then you start picture again and thinking about and what context it could have and then you start to basically implant a false number in yourself and so that can happen as well and I think with things like neural link it would be the same where you'd have the ability to do that and but again I still think that this interacts with you humans and AI or AI-like systems is it is the same as a social interaction which is why I was saying it's important I think that we have social psychologists in the room because ultimately whether it's an AI or another person it's the same brain that you're modifying so what you're worried about there is that you become untethered from reality like you fabricate too many details about the memory like if you're if human is attracted with AI and as telling the human what they want to hear you're you're worried about over time you start to just have a very overly modified version of your of your past narrative I'm not necessarily worried about the fact that AI and generative AI can create false memories that is again something we've also been doing for a long time like modified photos or something but pre-AI that we had that was already messing with people's minds even just what you have in the frame of a shot so if you take a holiday snap and you're emitting like a really important part of what actually happened on that holiday because you're taking a picture of the nicest part and not that you know the garbage behind you yeah that is going to have an impact on your memory as well and so we've that versions of that have always existed and historically if you go even further back I mean in some ways we've never been closer to facts than we are now there's this whole idea of like oh we're living in this post truth blah blah blah but that is not true I mean we didn't even know how to write for a long time we had no way of reliably cabalogging information never mind the scientific method never mind a reliably sharing it with one another or fact checking quickly with things like Google so I mean we're so close to facts but that in some ways I think is the the worry is that we've gotten comfortable feeling like we can just access things that aren't modified or that are less like to be modified and now they're more likely to be and that can interface with our memories so just a practical is there like a protocol for self modifying memories so you can live a happier life there is yeah it's called cognitive restructuring when you actively deliberately change an aspect of a memory usually for some therapeutic outcome so to be happier to be better in some way that's really interesting right like not just for if you have some kind of issue but just how to have a life while lived hmm right yes is that work yeah it totally works I mean I do it all the time it's again it's about thinking about experiences you've had positive or negative usually the negative are the ones we need to work on more and thinking instead of wow how terrible was that thinking what did I learn from that what has this given me that other people haven't experienced what is it that it taught me about who are my friends what you know what are these insights that I've won from this experience and so I think that is an important part of resilience that we ideally need to celebrate and teach more than the opposite which is hanging in the negatives that's probably really good for relationships to right together you the you form a collective memory and you work on that you just fabricate or modify towards the positive well with relationships one of my favorite research on memories is that if you ask people in relationships who does most of the housework or who does most of certain things the numbers that they give you so like someone will say I do 60 percent the other person will say I do 50 percent and you add them up that's more than a hundred percent and that's basically always the case and on lots of different fronts people will claim that they do more and if you ask them how much they partner does they will diminish it and so one of the tips I always say for relationships in terms of memories is actually just sharing what you're actually doing and so if you've initially it feels a bit cumbersome because it's quite unnatural to be like I've just taken out you know the rubbish I've just taken out the bins or I've just booked us a hotel but saying it out loud means the other person is able to perceive it and then can add it to sort of their internal like star chart of how much you've done in the relationship and they're more like to actually perceive what you're contributing whereas we just assume that people have the same memories we do and that they they of course she remembers that I took out the bins but not necessarily she might not even have really perceived it but if you're reminding each other of all the things that you're doing it can feel more balanced over time this memory is just so fascinating is it possible this is a little bit outside of the topic of false memories but it's possible to train memory like what what have you understood about memory like can it be improved yeah it can be improved and there are now some really good brain training apps as well that can help to get people to work better with attention to have end-back tests so remember information a couple of information pieces of information back so what did I tell you three sentences ago there's all of these kinds of well games effectively that you can play that will in fact train how your brain is using its networks there was one that was developed by researchers including researchers at the University of Bonn in Germany and it's called neuro nation and that's one that I like because it's all these really short games and the idea is that doing one thing like Sadooku or whatever those sort of classics to train your brain that is only going to be useful up to a point because it's then the same thing over and over again and what you want to be doing is lots of different kinds of tasks that your brain has to remain flexible and so short and many is the answer rather than one thing hard so I'm just the opposite of expertise so in doing this regularly like keeping your mind sharp that's interesting uh I'm terrible at remembering names me too is there a trick to doing that I don't know because I'm also terrible at remembering names allegedly there are tricks and it's mostly to make the information more sticky by making it a bigger network in the brain and so usually when you hear a name especially like you and I it's like gone immediately yeah and that's partly because I'd like to think the positive of that is because we're focusing on other things about the person right like what do they like what do they you know what's this next interaction going to be maybe you're a bit nervous about what they're going to say what you're going to say you're ready thinking a step ahead in terms of interpreting the situation and it's quite an overwhelming situation when you first meet somebody because there's a lot to take in and so if however a name is important then you need to A remember to focus when they actually say their name and two and out the other stuff which can be really difficult and then to give yourself a mnemonic of how do I remember this name um so you could have a visualize something you could have a weird like word game or some sort of like rhyme that you create for the person you can say you know uh julio with the big ears like whatever works for you as long as it sticks now there's a caveat that I recently discovered about myself and to in terms of why I might not have I have particularly bad memory for names um all of these mnemonic devices that have been studied over the last hundreds of years mostly rely on creating elaborate pictures in your mind so like memory champions people who do competitive remembering will tell you that they create these really elaborate images in their heads I recently discovered that I have a fantasia a fantasia is the inability to create mental imagery and so when I was trying these techniques I was going none of these are working for me and it turns out it's because I don't see anything whereas other people actually see pictures in their mind and so I think there's some individual differences to stuff going on there that we haven't quite understood so you're not able to visualize like can you imagine like a castle in your head and look at it no so the memory palace idea is absurd to me wow but so the test for a fantasia is really easy which is close your eyes and picture red apple you can't picture red apple and I just see black wow yeah and there's a scale so some people are hyper fantasia phantasic where they can have a really elaborate version of the apple and other people have like a gray sort of outline and I have nothing wait how does your memory work like if you think about a past event are you way am I visualizing the past event or am I just oh that's the question or is it just a concept I might be I might be operating in this space of concepts because I do and I think that's why I'm so interested in concepts and ideas yeah and we know that people with a fantasia are less likely to care about their childhood memories because they can't visualize them I'm trying to think if I can visualize people's faces from the past I have a feeling like I can but are you seeing it and am I actually seeing it I don't know I think I actually reduce those people down to a few concepts about the characteristics of their face and I might be visualizing the concepts boy interesting right yeah people with a fantasia don't realize they have it until they have this kind of conversation I didn't know I don't know if I can visualize the red apple though oh boy yeah yeah because the memory policy is never really worked for me either I tried interesting okay I have a hypothesis that people who are analytical are more likely to I think it intersects with other things because a lot of my friends turns out having a fantasia and I think it's there's a version of intelligence I think that it might be related to or an interest in certain kinds of concepts that it's related to but I don't know because early days of research on this all right this conversation totally is leading me to do some soul searching on many fronts you have done incredible work across a number of disciplines I mean from from sexuality to evil to memory and now in your upcoming book green crime inside the minds of the people destroying the planet and how to stop them can you speak to the psychology of the people the organizations that are killing earth as you describe including illegal gold miners animal traffickers common who falsify data and bribe regulators to keep polluting and many other types of criminals is there psychology similar to the psychology of some of the folks we've been talking about so the book green crime is really an experiment for me in whether we can apply chronological and criminal psychology ideas to the area of environmental protection and and crimes because there are people who are convicted of crimes who are convicted of crimes specifically in relation to destroying the earth and our natural resources are shared resources I sometimes think about the earth as like a house and if someone was coming into your house and just setting things on fire and then walking out on punish you'd be really upset and correctly so or poisoning your water or just like leaving a bunch of garbage all over your house and that's what people are doing on a planetary scale and the question is are we responding effectively and if so who who is responding effectively and then what is the adequate punishment how should we deal with the people who we who we catch and so in this book the question was are the people who are for example I use the the diesel gate Volkswagen case which was all about lying about the emissions that were being produced by diesel cars especially in the United States and so Volkswagen for 10 years produced these cars that had what was called a defeat device which is a specific device that makes it look like the cars don't emit very much nitrous oxides but they actually were way over the legal limit for pollution now why we should care about nitrous oxides is because there is no limit of no like bottom limit of nitrous oxides that is healthy for the the human long so basically any amount is bad for you and it's related to things like asthma it's related to things like premature death that's related to all kinds of negative immediate health effects and this is what was being pumped out of these cars at wildly high rates 40 times the legal rates in some cases and they just light about it they just covered it out they knew they didn't some some of the people there's a big debate within the Volkswagen people who've been convicted a lot of people say I didn't really know I'm being scapegoated fine people knew the question how much and who that's up for debate but certainly people knew because they had to create the thing they had to literally create this piece of software to put into the cars and then when they got caught they lied about it and eventually the truth came out but it was like 10 years later and so the question is what leads people clever people these aren't idiots these are like clever engineers who are literally working on emissions like they know exactly what these emissions do to people they know exactly how harmful they are what least people like that to lie about it to create these things and to and to continue lying when they are caught and so that is one of the cases I I cover in it and I'm looking at it more as a case study for this kind of crime which is the sort of corporate collective crime and the lying and just what leads people in these settings to lie and to cover up each others crimes and to conform to these new norms these harmful environmental norms and so I look at it in that way and then in other chapters I look at like people go undercover and uncover poaching gangs and there it's somewhat procedural where it's more I didn't know that there were undercover agents infiltrating poaching gangs I didn't know the interpol was involved in all of these kinds of environmental crime and how and it gets quite exciting in some of these cases where you really see the people who are trying to hold people accountable what are the different ways to fight environmental crime that you describe so what I found most interesting in researching for green crime so I was speaking to people from the United Nations who are doing these huge research reports on things like the international trafficking and wildlife crime I was talking to people who were infiltrating at the EIA the Environmental Investigation Agency it's like the sort of undercover police of the earth and they're infiltrating these organized crime groups these gangs that are involved in poaching and other activities I was talking to this interpol agent and it's I think all of these people were talking about very different ways of measuring environmental crime and of responding to it and so depending on who you talk to the answer will be very different how do we fight crime and the answer is also very different potentially than in other kinds of crime that are more commonly discussed like violent crime so initially when I started trying to apply criminal psychology to these really big crimes of that are often also multi level where you've got bosses you've got those whether it's a corporate boss or an illegal gang boss you've got the middlemen you've got the people on the ground who actually have the guns who are killing people or animals or are logging or polluting and then you've got sort of all these levels of people and that makes it very different from the kinds of crimes that we often talk about in other kinds of true crime for example where it's sort of one person maybe a couple of people against one other person or couple of other people and so the scale is so tiny normally and it's mostly violent crime which is mostly it's arguments it's bad decisions it's people who are frankly often quite vulnerable themselves like substance using people with mental health problems people who are sleeping rough like these are not healthy normal people most of the time who are perpetrating bad crimes and yet in this context in environmental crime this is where I couldn't apply the research directly you've got some of the smartest people in the world who are still engaging in fraud who are engaging in the cover up of financial information who are creating shell companies in order to hide certain things for poaching the proceeds of poaching you've got people who are out there illegally fishing and someone's ensuring the vessel that has been literally registered by interpol as a criminal vessel for 10 years and someone's going I'll ensure that and so you've got these really complicated other factors going on but I thought that's what was so interesting is ultimately stripping back each layer of each of these crimes and going who is that person who is the person who's ensuring this who is the person who is out there engaging in illegal fishing on the boat who is the person who's financing the boat who is the person who's investigating that right and so looking at all the different levels and I think that's where you get some clarity and actually at the end of the book for me I felt so optimistic I went into green crime because I like most people in the world at least according to a recent UN climate survey something like 85 to 90% of people in the world think about the climate crisis on a regular basis most people think about every single day this idea that there's this like minority of people who care about climate change that's an illusion that's not true and if you ask people what the emotional consequences are those feelings it's people say things like eco anxiety anger sadness grief that there was you know worried about the future but what you want is for people to feel motivated energized purposeful about tackling one of the biggest issues of our time and certainly by meeting all of these UN researchers but I went to so many conferences you have no idea what any conferences I went to anti-corruption conferences I went to wildlife crime conferences I went to the specific meeting of multilateral agreements to see how like people were negotiating in the room and the tensions between me it was wild it's so interesting it's such huge space and it gave me so much hope for the future and actually the way you frame it very clearly is a crime against the earth somehow that's more actionable and it's less controversial and divisive because climate change at the top is become like a political issue or it's like is it really happening is it like what's the right policies it's nice to look at actual obvious criminals yeah we're no one's debating did someone disburned on this rainforest it's like we can see it I was at a European Space Agency conference recently and they're telling us all about the different satellites that are imaging sort of pointing at the earth rather than out into space and that are imaging through all these different wavelengths exactly what's changing and basically just chronically how the earth has changed over time and a lot of these environmental crimes can be seen from space and can be measured and so it's like as long as you trust those data the question then is okay these crimes are happening how do we stop them and as you say like I was very much trying I mean you can't write a book on environmental issues and be apolitical I think that's impossible but I certainly was trying to look at it quite logically and go here's a crime we all agreed this is bad and they're these are people have been convicted this isn't just like someone who didn't do the recycling because also I think that individual levels often detrimental but these are huge huge crimes that cost us a huge amount of money to clean up and that cost a huge amount of human health and you know have these other knock on effects and are changing certainly the structure of our planet in a way that we can feel already and so that is the purpose of the book is to try and show that we actually have lots of laws already we've got lots of enforcers we've got lots of researchers on it from space and not space looking at these issues tracking them and trying to hunt down the criminals so what can you say about how people end up doing bad stuff in a company when there's a lot of them are they bad people like how do you get to that place where you in a large collective are doing something really bad so the psychology of environmental crime I find often boils down to the same kinds of things that we have already been talking about in the context of quote unquote evil where it's things like conformity so doing what you think everyone else is doing or know what everyone else is doing so there's an industry where you know that lots of people are cheating or are fudging the facts in some way then you both feel the need and also maybe rationalize the ability to also deceive because it's market forces right like ultimately in a free market or even a controlled one you've got these people who are just lying to everybody else and they're saying we're getting to these x outcome by following the rules that everyone else is and they're not they're just lying to consumers they're lying to the regulators they're lying to just lying and then other people who are trying to be honest and you know play the game clean they see the success of this other company and go well we we want to have what they have and then they realize they can't with the tech that exists get there and so what do they then realizes well they must be cheating and so then they start cheating and so it has this trickle effect of making everyone else fall in line with these well unethical practices that are unethical on so many levels and then later you get these huge lawsuits because if it you know if you get caught then everyone's upset the investors are upset the consumers are upset the environmental's the Lloyd everybody's upset with you because you have committed this huge crime yeah I mean you you explain so many forces there but even the simple forces social pressure like very slight social pressure I was just watching this documentary it's based on a book ordinary men talking about the the Germans the in Nazi Germany they were taking part in the execution squads in Eastern Europe and that they were given the option not to do it and ultimately they most people decided to keep being part of the execution squad even though they had no hatred in their heart seemingly whatsoever it's just slight social pressure you don't want to be the guy that kind of chickens out just a little bit of social pressure and you are able to very quickly dehumanize a large number of people and to murder them without any hate in your heart without anything that could trivially directly be identified as quote unquote evil just normal people doing very bad things and you can be an emissions engineer with a kid with asthma and then old grandma who's struggling with their health and still feel like yeah I know that I'm creating these dirty cars and yet I'm going to do it anyway because as you say there's the conformity the social pressure the rationalization and those are all very human experiences and that's why also in the book I always focus on whistleblowers a big word but like people who at some point actually helped to uncover what was going on and that if we're back to the topic of heroes we're back to bystander effects we're back to all of the social psychology and criminal psychology we've been talking about this whole time which is why I thought it was so important to apply that research to this context and to say okay so now we've got these people who are willing to engage in these crimes they know it but there's also this moment of how do you get out of it and who is going to stop them and back to the idea of heroes and you do usually in these cases at some point have a hero either an external one or an internal one who goes this needs to stop do you have empathy for those criminals empathy for everybody has that ever been in your life challenged like will you had trouble empathizing oh there is one context so there is one context that I I don't know if it's that I have trouble empathize I think it is I have trouble empathizing and I just think it is I don't want to and I don't know why this is the one thing but I remember writing evil and I got to the section on sexual slavery and there was something about that very specific issue of having women in particular in a confined area where you have often trafficked them and then you're forcing them to engage in repeated sexual acts that the person who is running that stuff for you I can't that's like the I know that I'm not saying that that's the worst kind of crime I don't think that necessarily is I just think from my mind there was just a you can't go there that's I don't know how to empathize with that person yeah I have I probably have a bunch of categories of people stuff with kids is just like stuff stuff yeah stuff what gives you hope about this beautiful world of ours about the future of human civilization given all the darkness that you have studied I think the fact that there are people who study the darkness gives me hope and that there are people who want to understand why we do bad things myself included but I mostly get to benefit from other people's research that I summarize into my books and I think that I think that the tech that we are now experiencing mostly also gives me hope and that there is this whole new frontier of capacity to implement scientific findings if we want to do so and choose to do so like also even a memory interviewing we were talking about the potential role of AI and distorting our memories I when I do talks when I do corporate talks I tell people the prompt that I use to use the cognitive interview which is the best practices and memory interviewing because you can also tell you know AI tools to do the appropriate kind of interviewing if you're talking about memory things and I created a company called spot of in 2017 which uses well it's now we're now building it out to be AI but it's basically a tool to record important emotional memories and to share them as information with others so that I've always been interested in how tech can help us to record important emotional events like with spot talk the spot and how technology can actually make us feel more human so there's these capacities like memory that we're bad at and tech can help us to overcome some of those shortcomings as long as we use it in a science-backed way rather than just sort of freestyling I think the worry I have sometimes is that as I've said before we're sort of ignoring the source of scientists entirely sometimes from building these systems and it ends up becoming this engineering maths problem when that's not actually in terms of the consequences for humanity what it's going to be and so I'm always keen on connecting social sciences and big issues can you speak more to spot this sounds fascinating so what's entailed in recording important memories so spot came out of my going around the world and giving everyone an existential crisis so I'd go around and like with you I'd say look our memory is really faulty and here's all the ways it can light us and people would go oh no and then I'd go bye and that's funny some point I was like maybe I should do something about this and so and so I did and so I went to a well I did a TED talk and I was invited to this tech conference called Founders Forum which is a sort of meeting of tech founders and others in London but in also a couple of other places and I was invited to this and while there I met the founder of Evernode Phil Libin and so I met Phil Libin at this event and I was talking to him about my research on memory and how I've been wanting to implement or translate what I've been doing into something that could prevent false memories and specifically I was interested in creating an AI or at least machine administered version of the cognitive interview so that's the neutral approach it's already a scripted approach which was helpful so it's been scripted for decades or a couple of decades it's been scripted for decades as a cognitive interview and when we train police on how to do it in places like the UK it's literally just asking people to basically read a script that we have fine tuned over the years and what can do that really well well chatbots can do that really well and so together with Phil Libin and my two co-founders Dylan and Daniel I ended up co-founding spot which is talk to spot.com if you want to check it out and it ended up sort of pivoting into this general reporting tool for workplaces where this was before me too but it was the idea being that in lots of workplace environments you have important emotional events that are really important to understand but are really hard to preserve and often you have this really bad evidence that you're relying on so someone at some point sort of go say HR and says something and somebody else does something else and you're sort of unsure as a company maybe who to trust what's real and so we were trying to streamline that and so now spot is a reporting tool for any kind of compliance issues and so you can talk to spot it's called and it is this chatbot interface that administers the cognitive interview and then creates a report that then gets sent if you want to your employer so we work with like insurance companies medical companies we work with the bars all the lawyers in the UK use it themselves which I always think is a real stamp of approval when the bar counsel is using your tool but again not not bars and drinks bars and lawyers yes thank you for clarifying just picturing all these like people like with flair throwing vodka bottles in there not not them all the grade two but yeah they could also use it potentially but we've got people reporting like you know someone left bleach in a machine so it's like a more small memory so it's streamlining reporting processes I mean can you envision something like spa being used for recording generally important emotional events positive and negative throughout your life that seems like something the LLMs of today would really benefit from yeah again this way just so you're not just strictly looking at like compliance or in the context of companies so in the context of spot yes it's just compliance and it's that but I think in sort of private life and in terms of where I think this could go I'm interested in all memories and I think that important life events can be recorded and I think the idea of having like grief bots and having things that have a representation of you or your loved ones I think that's something that I like seeing in the future I would have you gotten a chance to work with maybe the Gemini team or open AI folks or any of them andthropic because it seems like they don't have enough people that think about this well I'm just waiting for an email okay maybe I'll get one after this I'm hang me up go yeah I'm hanging out with deep mind folks that'll be really that'd be really fascinating to to see first of all the the proper cognitive interview that's really interesting that's really interesting how to not lead how to not to plant false memories I don't think any of them are thinking about that I don't think so either and then how to make sure that you're using that to help people to store contemporaneous evidence outside of the room I just think there's so much potential that's being wasted right now yeah so the hope is the technology and that there's people being willing to empathize with all different flavors of the human condition that's your source of hope for the future and to celebrate all the people who're doing amazing research and it's really cracking down on things like environmental crime and like spending their lives to fight specific kinds of crime yeah I like this earth I hope I hope we fight for it it's the only one we got them pretty hesitant to say that maybe in this galaxy we might be the only ones so let's let's protect it well uh what's your name get just kidding haha Julia this is a huge honor um I've been a fan of yours for a long time I'm really glad we've got a chance to talk this was really fascinating your work is fascinating and you're just a fascinating human being so thank you thank you thanks for listening to this conversation with Julia Shaw to support this podcast we check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me ask questions give feedback and so on and now let me leave you some words from TS Elliott most of the evil in the world is done by people with good intentions thank you for listening and hope to see you next time you