Episode 349: Talking with Kids about Faith, Sexuality and Gender with Dr. Preston Sprinkle

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Capable is about helping parents raise kids who can handle big emotions, hard moments, disappointment and real life, not perfectly but resiliently. We talk about why kids today have more support than ever but less confidence in their own ability to cope. And how without realizing it we sometimes step in so quickly that kids miss the chance to practice becoming capable. This book is full of stories from our counseling rooms, practical tools you can actually use and encouragement for parents who are doing their best and wondering if it's enough. In fact, we have 100 capable building exercises in the book that we are super excited about. So if you're parenting a child who feels anxious, sensitive, perfectionistic or overwhelmed or if you feel that way as a parent, this book is for you. Capable is available now for pre-order and pre-ordering really does help get this message into more homes. You can find Capable wherever books are sold and you can learn more at CapableBook.com. Thanks for letting us share this with you. We cannot wait to get this book into your hands. Hey friends, welcome to the Raising Boys and Girls podcast. I'm Sissy Goff. And I'm David Thomas and we're so glad you've joined us for this conversation. Let's dive in. Dr. Preston Sprinkle is an international speaker and a New York Times bestselling author who's written over a dozen books. Preston currently serves as the president of the Center for Faith, Sexuality and Gender, an organization that equips Christians to engage questions about faith, sexuality and gender with theological faithfulness and courageous love. And he's also the president of Theology and the Raw, which includes the popular Theology and the Raw podcast. The president and his team have created some incredibly valuable resources for parents, educators and churches. And we have wanted to have this important conversation for a long time with a trustworthy, thoughtful, wise voice. This is such an important conversation that we want you to listen all the way through because he has some amazing nuggets in the midst of it. It's one you're going to want to listen to, you're going to want to save and you're going to want to share with friends. Well, we are so excited about this conversation. We have wanted to get to sit down and talk with you for a long time and I had the honor of being on your podcast, but with your wife. Yes. Not with you, I loved. And definitely want you to tell us how. I will. But we are so excited and your work is something that we have admired for so long and been so grateful for. And we are in a portion of really a series called What Kids Need Right Now. And in our counseling work, we would say what you're doing is so desperately needed. Thank you. And so it felt like a great time to sit down and have the conversation. I'm honored to be a guest on your show. I'm a big fan. So thank you for the work you guys put through. It's incredible. Thank you. Thanks, Preston. Well, in your work with students, parents and churches, if you had to say what you feel like kids and teens need most right now emotionally and spiritually in this culture that we're living in, what would you say? I mean, you know, you're the expert. So I'm nervous to give any kind of answer. So I'm a father of my wife and I. We've raised four kids. There are three girls and a boy. So my girls are 22, 20, 18 and my son is 16. Yeah. So most of my experience, just so people have context comes anecdotally with, you know, the challenge of raising four Gen Z kids and, and then, you know, being around their friends and being involved, you know, speaking at different youth groups and, you know, being through my ministry being involved in many different denominations. I have a decent sense of kind of the broader landscape. So that's what I'm going on. I don't have a counseling degree. I'm not a psychologist. So if I say anything stupid, just please correct me. You know, I, for my wife and I, having a genuine presence with our kids has always been a number one priority. Open communication, looking them in the eye, showing deep, deep interest in them from the very beginning. And I feel like for us, when we've laid that thick, authentic curiosity in our kids, that gives us, I feel like relational collateral to exercise the tough love when it, when it needs to be done. And, and I don't know if it's a generational thing, but I think maybe my Gen X, where I'm a Gen Xer and, and, you know, I think we, some of us were raised with like distant parents or parents. They were just kind of harsh or disciplinary. And, and so we sometimes overreacted. And now we just want to be our kids best friends and don't say anything mean, don't, you know, too many rules that are going to run away from home and get kidnapped or something. There's a lot of fear in my generation. And so I just found that kids need both. They need direction. They need, they need tough love. They need rules. They need boundaries. But yeah, that won't go well if you haven't established that thick, authentic, curious relationship with your kids. So from day one, we've just been just love with our kids and just wanted to know them and parent them in their unique personalities and understanding that one kid might need, you know, this approach and another kid might need something different, you know. And so, yeah, it's, it's been an adventure parenting is not for the faint hearted, especially, I mean, from the time in the 22 years, my wife and I have been parents. I mean, look at the changes. The internet was barely around. Yes. And now we have AI running everything. It's like, it's, so we've, we've, I feel like we've, we've gone through so many cataclysmic changes within our parenting lifespan and nobody taught us how to do this. So part of it's just kind of figuring out as we go to you through lots of prayer and repentance. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Building on that and thinking about this time in the world, so many kids feel pressure. Yes. To figure out who they are at an earlier and earlier age. So how would you say that pressure is affecting both their emotional and their spiritual development? I think it's affecting them negatively a lot, a lot. You know, when I went through junior high, high school, our identity crisis was what, what bands do I like? Am I going to be into country or punk rock? You know, and what, am I going to hang out with the hippies or the jocks? You know, there was, those kind of like identity things, but those were, those were, I don't know that compared to what kids are wrestling with today, it was, I don't want to downplay that. I don't know if it's because I'm a big boy or a girl, but I'm not a big boy or a girl. I'm a big boy or a girl. I'm a big boy or a girl. I'm a big boy or a girl. I'm a big boy or a girl. I'm a big boy or a girl. I'm a big boy or a girl. I'm a big boy or a girl. 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I'm a big boyickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenickenicken I'll talk to you all with my kids, start young, age appropriate, but start having Jesus-centered conversations with your kids at a young age. Because they're gonna, your kids are gonna, they're gonna be just discipled by somebody in this conversation, better be the parents first, you know? So, yeah. That's so good. Will you talk about identity being something we receive and grow into rather than something we must immediately define. Based on exactly what we're talking about. How can parents help kids hold questions about identity, especially around gender and sexuality without panic or urgency? That last part's so important. Yes. Is it gonna- Will you talk about why it's important to do both things? Well, I, and here's where I'm gonna, please fact check me on this, you're the experts, so but like, don't we have like mirror neurons? Yes. So like if the parent is anxious, Yes. The kid feels that and they- Absolutely. So that non-anxious presence when you're talking about topics that can produce a lot of anxiety, I think parents need to get in the habit of having that non-anxious presence, that quiet confidence that, hey, I can handle any question, you know? And I think kids gravitate to that. If they sense that you're nervous, if you're anxious, that you're fearful, they're gonna imitate that. So I think number one, yeah, just establish that as a parent, you're the safest person they can talk to. They can ask hard questions. And if you don't know the answer, say, you know what? I don't, I'm not sure I know about that, but I would love to study this with you and walk this road with you, you know? I think when parents try to cook up a black and white answer on every topic and just cause they feel like they need to say the right thing, like kids can sniff that out. So just be authentic, be honest, and just be a type of parent that your kids will want to come to as a safe person to talk to, you know? Kids will, you know, kids are kids. They're going through all kinds of things growing up. And yeah, play the long game too, you know? What they're into at 12 might not be what they're into at 12 and a half or 13. So don't freak out if they start, you know, not to make it all about gender, but yeah, a lot of people listening are gonna have kids that, you know, they might be questioning their gender at nine because they heard something on the playground at school. Yes. Okay, let's talk about that, you know? And let's embody both grace and truth and what it means to be human and be a curious listener to our kids and yeah, guide them in the Christian vision for what it means to be human. God created us male and female. And that's gonna be challenged in so many pockets of society today at a very, very young age. And all the more reason to be well-studied and do some research and really be the kind of parent who can navigate this conversation in a day and age when it's just everywhere, you know? Yes. And now a quick break to hear from one of our incredible sponsors who make the podcast available. Okay, we have both been sick lately and all I wanted was a warm beverage. And an app. That too, but my go-to was Brodo, one of our new sponsors. I am completely obsessed with the chicken bone broth. It's so rich in savory, like homemade soup, but fancy. I had a cup the other day while recording and thought, why have I been wasting years on tea? I'm a hearth bone broth guy. It's got that slow cook flavor that feels like you're sitting by a fire, even if you're just hiding from your inbox. I can confirm he's been sipping at mid-episode. And honestly, I get it. Brodo is made from scratch, no preservatives, no concentrates, just pure chefcrafted goodness. 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We aren't gonna say everything right. I think and maybe I think kids are more resilient than sometimes we're making out to be, especially if you've established that thick foundation of love that gives you more freedom to, not to purposely make mistakes, but you're not just gonna destroy your kid by saying something the wrong way and going back and saying, hey, I wanna revisit this conversation. I didn't say that right. Here's how I wanna say it. But I would also say, I mean, I do think parents do need to take some time to study things out too. The best way to not say the wrong thing is to think through a topic like gender sexuality with thoughtfulness, read some books, have some guides in your life that can help you understand the conversation better. And I don't think parents can be an expert in everything. We have enough on our plate, but the topic of gender and sexuality has become some of the most pressing ethical questions facing kids today, especially. And so I will put it at the, near the top, if not the top of areas that I think all Christian parents should have some knowledge based on. Well, let's, we were probably gonna say the exact same thing. Let's go ahead and say, you have an amazing resource. Thank you. Will you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, so I run a nonprofit called the Center for Faith, Sexuality and Gender, and we've really pushed into the parenting space over the last couple of years, and we spent a lot of time and money creating this video-based resource for parents with young kids, zero to 12, called Christian Sexuality Raising Kids. And it is a comprehensive resource on helping parents to disciple their kids in a gospel-centered vision for how God wants us to live out our bodies and our sexuality. So we begin with the gospel, lay that foundation of it's all about Jesus. We talk about grace, forgiveness, we cover the nitty gritty stuff, like when and how to have the sex talk and why it's necessary to have that, not just have, you know, we say, somebody said this somewhere, I'm stealing it from somebody, but don't just have 100 minute conversation, have 100, one minute conversation. So I think there is a time to have kind of the talk, but make this just part of an open rhythm of your parenting that your kids are gonna be asking or thinking about questions around sexuality and gender several times a day at least. So make it just a non-anxious conversation in the household. And I think there are age-appropriate ways to have the talk and I recommend having it probably sooner than most parents think. Again, age-appropriate, but if you wait until they're 13 years old, to start talking about sex, look, unless you're living on a commune with no internet or something, your kids have already further down the road. And what's that principle? It's the, is it the anchoring bias that kids will see as authoritative the person or source that they hear from something from first. So if you wait until they're 13 or even nine, they've already heard something on the playground from little Johnny who has used the term gay or talked about sex or in this day and age, maybe in kindergarten to first grade, they're hearing stuff. So I just say, I think it's really important that kids hear about this topic from their parents first, even if it's little things, like talking about the differences between boys and girls and their bodies, in a very God-honoring, innocent way. So yeah, we need to have the conversation. We need to have it early. And Jesus needs to get the center of it all. Okay, and for the parent who's like, oh no, I have a 15-year-old, I've aged out. You've got resources for parents of adolescents too. We have resources for all ages. So our resource we put out a few years ago is Christian sexuality raising teens. It was, it's primarily designed as a youth group curriculum. But then we had a lot of parents reaching out, saying my kid's not in a youth group or whatever, like is there something for us? So we just, we kind of repackaged that, aimed at parents with teens. And that's, you know, those are where the majority of our questions come up, is like, you know, how do I talk to my teen? You know, they say they're non-binary or bisexual or they're all their friends are gay, or how do we navigate this? And so that's been kind of the, for lack of a better term, it's kind of the fires we've been putting out. But then we're like, man, what if we don't have to put out fires? What if we could build foundations and help parents disciple their kids from day one in this conversation? So that's when we said we want to put out, yeah, Christian sexuality raising kids, and that's directed for parents with young kids from day one. So yeah, yeah, parents, look, I'm a parent. It's terrifying. I get it. So if you're nervous, that's exactly why we created this resource, so that you can have the tools to know how to have the conversations. And we even get down to like, you know, almost scripting it out, saying this isn't what you have to say, but here's exactly what I would say when my five year, or you know, here's what I did say when my five year old said, can two, hey, can somebody, can a girl marry a girl? Why not? Or why? Like a really innocent question that they're gonna ask. And in that moment, we can help parents to say, okay, here's exactly what you can say or something like this, you know, avoid this, avoid that, avoid being soft on truth or ambiguous on truth, but also you don't wanna cultivate a spirit of anger or hate among your kid towards people who disagree with God's vision. So with everything we do, it's grace and truth, grace and truth, grace and truth, and building those twin pillars underneath the feet of our kids with everything we do. Yes. Well, along those lines, how have you seen conversations about sexuality, either support kids' emotional wellbeing or unintentionally increase anxiety for your child? Oh, gosh. That could take the rest of the time. I guess to come back to it again, that non-anxiousness, that would be a huge, huge priority. As much as this topic can produce a lot of anxiety among parents, just try to discipline yourself to have that attractive confidence that your kid wants to talk to you, they're not scared to talk to you, they're not, you know, no question should be off limits. Cause if your kid has a question that they don't think they can ask you, the question doesn't go away. Your kid will just go away to ask somebody else, you know? So no question is off limits. If they ask a question that sounds terrifying, just don't be terrified. Like this is just what, this is a question they have. So yeah, so I think establishing that, I think on the flip side, don't be afraid to tell the truth, you know? I think most parents in conservative Christian circles, they would probably err on the side of heavy emphasis on truth, light emphasis on loving others who maybe disagree with that truth. But there are, I think a growing number of parents too, that, you know, they might be almost embarrassed of a Christian sexual ethic or think that if they, you know, say marriages between a man and a woman, then in our society today, you know, nobody believes that anymore and my kid's gonna, you know, leave the faith if they hear of this kind of like old school outdated sexual ethic. The fact is we serve a good creator who knows more about sex than we ever will. He created us as sexual beings. He gave us the rules, the foundations and they're not just good and beautiful, but they are the best way to live a flourishing life in the world. Boundaries are not established to steal our joy. Boundaries are established to further our joy. So yeah, don't be afraid to be clear about God's design for sex, sexuality and marriage. So yeah. Thank you. So for a parent listening who's wondering this, what would you say is the difference between a child expressing curiosity about gender or sexuality and a child feeling pressure to land on a fixed identity? And how would you say parents could respond differently? Yeah. I will say, and this used to be controversial. I don't think it's controversial anymore. And most, I mean, it's just not, it shouldn't be. That there's a lot of social influence that is playing a role in the very high rates of people who are either identify as LGBTQ or express confusion over their gender or sexuality. There is a small percentage of people who experience what would be considered clinically diagnosable gender dysphoria that distress some people feel over their biological sex. I mean, the DSM, I love this, the DSM5 2013, has it been updated yet? Is there a six yet? Or is it just five? I don't know. I think it's five. Yeah. It said on the high end, it's 0.014% would be, the population would be diagnosed with gender dysphoria. This is a serious psychological condition that is really devastating for people that experience it. 0.014%, it's a very small percentage. So we have some high schools that have three to 5% of the population identifying as something other than their biological sex. That's pointing to something socially going on there. So as a parent, I would be aware of your kid's social environment, both in person and especially online. A lot of people I know, teens that went through a stage where they're confused about their gender, they ended up not being confused anymore. Once they left that environment, they so many of them point to, I was on certain social media sites six hours a day. All my friends came out as gay at the same time or trans or, you know. So yeah, being aware of the social environment, that doesn't mean every kid who identifies a certain way is just being, it's a result of peer influence, but peer influence does play a serious role. So I would, what you don't, okay, here's what you don't wanna do as a parent. After everything I just said, don't lead with, if your 12 year old comes home and says, I want you to call me they, them, these are my pronouns, do not lead with, oh, you're just going through a phase. Oh, you're just, you know, being influenced by your friends or, you know, like don't lead with that. Just be aware that, hey, there may be some environmental reasons that have played a role in these, this choice of pronouns or identity. Don't freak out, don't do not freak out. Many kids who go through a season of gender confusion, many of them do not, it's not like they're gonna, they're gonna be confused when they're 75 years old, you know, it's like this, there could be a stage that they're going through. So don't freak out, just be a, as hard as it may be, be a curious listener, ask questions genuinely. Why do you wanna, why do you want me to use these pronouns, you know, da-da-da-da, and as I would say, as a parent with younger kids, this is where I think you need to, in a very loving way, help guide them to embrace their God-given bodies. I mean, that is our objective identities that have been given to us that we do not choose is our biological sex. It's one of the most stable aspects of humanity. So helping them embrace that reality, even if there is some difficulty in embracing that, what you don't wanna do is simply affirm some confusion that they're going through, you know, try to gently, graciously bring them back to God's identity that has been stamped upon them. They cannot actually change, you know. I know we keep coming back to the gender piece, so it's just, it's such a big deal to me. It's like, that's, yeah, so many parents are wrestling with this, but... Yes, well, and that leads in well to our next question, which is many parents wanna be both loving and clear about their faith convictions. And at the same time, in counseling, we talk so much with parents about staying in the conversation rather than shutting it down. How can parents model conviction? This is like the million dollar question. How can parents model conviction that feels emotionally safe and keeps the conversation going at the same time? That's good. This is gonna be anecdotal, you know, just what I've seen over the years. Sometimes how we believe is almost as important as what we believe. That's almost heresy. But I'm pushing it a little bit because if you hold to your faith and believe all the right things, but you are doing so in a belligerent, aggressive, black and white, like angry manner, you might even on paper be holding to all the right truths, but the manner in which you're doing it can be a massive turnoff. So I think, for instance, you know, a parent that believes marriages between a man and a woman, like I do. I think that truth is almost more compelling when the parent also shows deep love for LGBT people in the disagreement, you know? It's only when I feel like it almost discredits your beliefs when you are holding on to them in such an angry manner and you're almost like bitter towards people that don't believe the same way you do. It's almost like, especially with Gen Z, I feel like they're almost like they can spot the insecurity there, you know? Like if you have to be angry about your beliefs, first of all, I'm not sure I want to hold to your beliefs. But there's a confidence that comes with, no, here's what I believe. And this is, I believe this strongly, but I can, I not can, but I should love people who disagree. Doesn't mean, you know, there might be some boundaries there, but they're created in God's image and they're entitled to their view. And I don't hate them for disagreeing with this viewpoint. I think kids, especially younger kids, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, they do, I think they're gonna be attracted to the church, to Jesus when they see Jesus followers embodying love and grace in the world. Cause I think that's just, it's so attractive. And my friend, Barry Corey, he's a president of Biley University. He talks about having a strong center and soft edges, you know? I love that metaphor, you know? Because some people think, oh, if you're too gracious towards people that you disagree, you lack conviction. Like, no, that's the opposite. It's because I have conviction and confidence in my beliefs that I don't need to get worked up over people that disagree, you know? So, yeah. And I've seen that, yeah, I've seen that in our own household. I can see when we do it wrong. I learn more from my mistakes than when I do things right. But yeah, I think kids are just, they're attracted to people who embody love. 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And we'd love to talk about that in the context of conversations about gender and sexuality. And so how would you say those two might intersect both for kids and for parents? Yeah, it's so good. I'm so glad you guys emphasize that. And I think your newest book deals with that as well. First of all, I just wanna affirm that. Like I think kids today, as is a generalization, but it's largely true that they just discomfort, they see as a bad thing. Delaying gratification might be a bad thing. And we know that that's not, as Jonathan Haidt and others have pointed out, that doesn't build resilience and resilience brings character and ultimately brings more joy. And it's a Christian way of life, right? Following Jesus involves self denial. It involves suffering and involves some pain. And even every athlete knows this, that like sometimes it hurts to run that extra mile. Sometimes lifting weights hurts or training hurts, but that's how you do build resilience and improve yourself. So yeah, I think as a parent who hates to see my kids go through any adverse situation, there's certain adverse situations that are not good, the bully on the playground, you know, or whatever or obviously situations where there might be abuse or, but other adverse situations build resilience. And I need to let my kid as part of the natural healthy processes of life go through challenges in life that might be tough and might bring tears, you know, but some of those situations, the teacher who is gave them a grade they don't deserve or kids that were acting belligerent in the classroom, whatever, like there's, that's the natural part of life. And I want my kid will develop resilience when they go through those adverse situations. And as a parent, I don't want to always just jump in and like rescue them from that. Like we think back on ourselves and how did we develop character? It was working the job with the boss who was unreasonable. It was doing X, Y and Z that wasn't good in the moment, but we learned healthy life lessons from that. So why would we then rob our kids from the very processes of life that we know built resilience and character? So, but that's hard. It's hard. I wanna give my kids everything. Happy all the time, you know, but that's just not healthy really. I mean, it's not the real world. So, yeah. Yes. Well, what role would you say the church should play in helping kids feel both grounded and deeply loved as they navigate complex cultural messages about gender and sexuality? Number one response is silence is not an option. I rarely tell, I'm not a pastor. Pasturing is so difficult. And so I rarely tell pastors, you need to. I'm a cheerleader for pastors. I praise God that you're doing what you're doing because I couldn't do that. The one time I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be a little bold here. As it questions around face, sexuality and gender becomes some of the most pressing ethical questions facing the church today. If you're a pastor, you are responsible to help disciple your people. So there's no case I can think of that a pastor would say, these are some of the most challenging discipleship questions that are my people wrestling with, but I'm not gonna help navigate this conversation with them. Yeah, but people might leave or I might say the wrong thing or blah, blah, blah, blah. You know what? That's when you push into tough areas of discipleship, some people might not like it. And that is okay. So silence is not an option. There's good and bad ways of going about it. So if a pastor or a leader, a cypher is maybe not well studied on the topic, then you have a responsibility to bridge that gap, to get well studied. You don't need to be an expert and read a thousand books, but you might need to read five or 10 and have conversations and grow in this area. And then figure out, every congregation is different, but figure out what's the best way to educate my people. Usually I like to, you know, concentric circles. So healthy dialogue and research and conversations among leaders. And then if it's a bigger church, you might have, you know, the pastoral leaders and then staff leaders, you know, and have those kind of behind the scenes conversations so that you're all on the same or similar pastoral pages. And then figure out the best way to educate and disciple your congregation. In most cases that I've seen, some people leave, but I've seen churches actually grow because people hear, wait, that church is actually talking about this. I think people are desperate to have some leadership in these conversations, especially, going back to parents, I think churches have a wide open door to help disciple parents or disciple in their kids or try to come alongside parents to help parents navigate these tough conversations. And not to promote my resources, but we have a lot of resources that we create just so that churches can have resources to help move this conversation forward. So, and like I said before, capital G, grace, capital T, truth. Be clear on the gospel, be clear on God's design for marriage and sexuality. Clarity is kindness. Is that, but Brene Brown, does she coin that? Somebody coined that, I don't know. Yeah, but clarity is kindness. Don't be ashamed of the creator's design for sexuality. And make sure that as we embrace the truth, people are being gracious and kind and loving towards others who disagree, you know? Most, this is a fascinating statistic. It was a survey done years ago, massive survey on the religious background of LGBT people. And it showed that 83% of LGBT people were raised in a church, 83%. And 51% ended up leaving after they were 18. And when they were asked why they left, only 3% said they left primarily because of the church's theological teaching about marriage. Most of the reasons how to do with relationships, how to do with just, I didn't see any kindness or I saw a lot of hypocrisy. There was all this heterosexual sin going on. People turned a blind eye or downplayed it. But the second I said, I'm struggling with this, people looked at me like I grew a second head or something, you know? So I think there's a lot of culture, church culture change that can happen needs to happen without a theological change. So be clear on God's teaching and don't be afraid. Do be kind in how you embrace God's truth and interact with people who might disagree. Yes. Okay, if there's one last thing you could offer to parents listening who feel afraid or overwhelmed at times about these conversations, what would you say? Oh man. I don't know how to say this without it sounding so cliche, but God is bigger than your fear. God is in control. Kids are, the kids are resilient. And for all of my failures, you know, gosh, few nights through I go to bed, my head hitting the pillow where I'm like, gosh, I shouldn't have done that. I should have said this, shouldn't have said that. You know, like we just parents, we can be so hard on ourselves. You know, God's bigger than that. God's bigger than that. And for me, there's so many important things in parenting but for us, going back, I think A number one value or A high value is just do our kids feel comfortable coming to us with anything. There might be disagreement, there might be bitterness, might be fights, whatever, but if they feel like at the end of the day, I can talk to my parent about anything. I don't, is that the, I don't know, I don't want to rate. I don't want to say is that the most important thing all I know is like when that's established, I feel like we can work through anything and we've worked through stuff with our kids like anybody. You know, there's been a lot of late nights early mornings and, you know, temperature raises and all these things and it can become so challenging. But at the end of the day, you know, as long as our kids are like, I do feel like I can tell you anything, I feel safe around you. Then I think that's a great, that's a great foundation. Yes. Well, we want folks to know where they can find and follow all of these amazing things we've talked about and more. And you also have a new book that we haven't even gotten to talk about. So will you talk a little bit about that and what led you to write it? And then tell people where they can find you. Yes. So I am coming out with a book called, I tend to only write on controversial topics. I actually, I'm not a controversial person. I'm a peacemaker. I love to get a, you know, but I just love wrestling the topics that people are like, you know, fighting about. So I spent the last three years researching the topic of women in church leadership. It is called From Genesis to Junior, an honest search for what the Bible really says about women in leadership. And I'm a Bible guy. That's, I, you know, I'm a PhD in New Testament. I love the Bible. And so I was, I just, for so many years, I'm like, I've never studied this for myself. I grew up in, you know, a conservative environment and still in that environment, but I've never actually looked at the text thoroughly. So I just, and I can get pretty obsessive when it comes to hot topics. So I would just read everything. Like I won't, I won't put pen to paper until I've like read everything and spent thousands of hours. So I put more time into this book than, yeah, probably any book I've written. So yeah, it's just, it looks, it's just a look at what are the best arguments for the different sides of this debate. I really want to honor different sides. I want to, I like to steal man opposing arguments, you know, rather than straw man, where you make it look really bad. So you can knock it down. I like to say, what's the best argument for different sides? Cause there's good people, great people on different sides of this debate. So yeah, it's just, it's a thorough look at all the biblical arguments for and against women in leadership. So yeah, we'll see how this goes. And where can folks find that and all the things you're doing? Wherever books are sold, Zonny Amazon. Yeah, yeah. And I have a couple of websites, Theology, oh, I've a podcast, Theology and Raw. So theologyandtheraw.com has resources there. Then I have a personal website, pressandsprinkled.com. So yeah. Preston, thank you. Thank you. It's just so good to get to be with you and so grateful for your thoughtfulness and love in the world. That you're living out these two pillars of grace and truth so beautifully. Yes. Thanks for having me on you guys. Really appreciate it. So fun. David, what a team we have that we get to call friends who help make this podcast possible. Chris Sterrett, our engineer. Our management team at KCH. And we are thrilled to be a part of the That Sounds Fun Network. Our music was created by the insanely talented Dave Haywood of Lady A. And if this podcast felt helpful to you, please consider subscribing, liking, sharing all the things. We are grateful for you and cheering you on always. Analytics in one place. What used to take five separate tools, ShipStation does in one. Go to ShipStation.com and use code start to try ShipStation free for 60 days.