China Took His City. And Now His Father.

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do you hear the people

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sing singing the song of angry from

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the New York Times, I'm Michael Balbaro. This is the Daily. The pro democracy movement in Hong Kong brought hundreds of thousands of people out into the streets in 2019. They demanded democracy and that China uphold the freedoms it had promised when it took back the British colony in the late 1990s.

0:31

For the first time since Beijing imposed a new security law on Hong Kong,

1:13

police have carried out dozens of arrests

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and used water cannon and tear gas against protesters.

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China responded by arresting thousands of protesters, including the leaders of the movement. Like a man named Jimmy Lai. For decades, Lai had used his wealth and his newspaper to campaign for democracy. He was a constant thorn in the side of Beijing.

1:23

If I knew that I would be end up like this and in prison, would I have changed the way I run my life? And I realized that no, I won't defer.

1:47

We interviewed Lai on the show in 2020, just after he was arrested.

1:59

Because I've never did anything before intentionally, just naturally. So it must be my character. If it's my character, it's my destiny. It's my destiny. It's God's grace and blessing. So I was all relief.

2:04

He was later found guilty of national security crimes. And earlier this month, after five years of waiting behind bars, Jimmy Lai was summoned for his sentencing hearing. And when he arrived at the courthouse, what became clear is that the movement he once helped lead had now become a shell of itself. A small group of pro democracy demonstrators had gathered outside, their faces hidden by scarves and masks for fear of being identified. They, like Lai himself, were waiting to learn his sentence.

2:26

The heavy, very heavy sentence, you know, almost comically heavy sentence was expected.

3:17

20 years.

3:21

Yeah, 20 years for his age. That's basically a life sentence.

3:22

Jimmy Lai's son Sebastian was also waiting.

3:27

I mean, by the time he gets out, if he does, he'll be 98. Given the health conditions that he's in and given the conditions that he's been kept in, I don't know if he could even serve one tenth of of that sentence.

3:31

He spent years trying to free his father and learned the news of his sentence from thousands of miles Away in

3:44

Paris, his health has deteriorated massively over the last five years. His nails are falling off, he's got heart problems. I mean, look, everybody knows someone around his age, late 70s, early 80s. And if you put a man of that age in a 60 sq ft cell in solid confinement the whole time, even if you did that for someone for 100 days, the likelihood of that person surviving is not high. And he's been in there for 1,800 days and more.

3:52

Wow. You know that number very well.

4:21

Yeah, yeah, unfortunately I do. But there was a little moment that gave me some courage. It was when the sentence was announced and report from court said that he even managed to flash a smile almost to tell his captors that he's still fighting, that even though they've shackled his body, attempt to break it, they have not shackled his soul. And I think his spirit is only being made stronger by his persecution.

4:24

Today we speak with Sebastian Lai a about his father's sentence, what it means for the pro democracy movement and where Hong Kong goes from here. It's Friday, February 27th.

4:59

Have some coffee and breakfast.

5:29

That's it.

5:31

So five years ago, we, Sebastian, made an episode about your father around the time when he was first arrested. And so many of the details from that episode stick out to me. He was born in mainland China and grew up in poverty during the communist takeover there. There was widespread famine at that time.

5:32

I work as a boy, and he

5:55

recollected the story of working on the trains.

5:59

Those guys, I carried the baggage for

6:03

carrying the bags of rich people who were going to Hong Kong, back and forth. And how one man gave him a piece of chocolate.

6:06

What's this? It said chocolate. I said, where are you from?

6:16

Hong Kong.

6:18

I said, hong Kong must be heaven.

6:19

That was so extraordinary in his memory because this was a sweetness he had never known and a luxury he couldn't really even imagine. That it prompted him eventually to flee to Hong Kong. And he actually ends up hiding in a boat traveling there. And this was all before your time. But were these stories that you heard growing up?

6:22

Yeah. He also would tell me the story of when he first landed into Hong Kong and he went to the market. And he had never seen so much food in his entire life. So he. He broke down crying. And he'd always say it's one of the best days of his life, because in Hong Kong, even though he had nothing, he knew that at least he had freedom and that he had future. And I actually always heard these stories through a very happy lens. And it's only growing up that I realized how painful that period of his life would have been.

6:49

Well, and he goes from nothing to becoming a multimillionaire. He apparently eventually buys his own factory. He launches a clothing company and eventually starts a very popular magazine. And then a newspaper, Apple Daily. When Hong Kong was still governed by Britain, and to so many in Hong Kong and around the world, he becomes this pro democracy champion. To others, including the Chinese government, he. He's something else. He's an agitator, he is a troublemaker. But to you, he's your father. And that's what we want to talk about here. What kind of dad was Jimmy Lai?

7:18

So I was born in 94, just before the handover. Exactly. I was born three years before the handover. And I mean, all the memories that I have are very happy memory. I guess that's what memory does to you. But he was a very good father. And he was also a very colorful personality. I mean, he used to have a bear.

8:03

He used to have a bear.

8:25

We used to have a brown bear at home. So when he was doing Giordano, this

8:27

is the clothing line he created before the newspapers.

8:31

Exactly. Clothing line. He would have truck drivers. And one day one of his truck drivers was. Got. Saw the bear. Well, he thought it was a dog. He thought it was a puppy. So he went to my father and just was like, here, boss, this is a present for you. And my dad was like, well, what do you want me to do with it? And it was one of those moments where, you know, they didn't want, you know, to call animal control, whatever, is to put it down. So. So dad kept a bear at home. And then eventually, you know, we got sent to a zoo and whatnot in Thailand. But for her period. Yeah, he had a bear.

8:34

That does suggest a certain. A certain adventurousness.

9:10

Yeah, yeah.

9:13

He pushes boundaries, right? Suddenly you're living with a bear.

9:13

Yes, yes. Yeah, he was. Well, he is. He's still a real rebel at heart.

9:17

And what about Hong Kong itself? How did you experience your dad's relationship to the city?

9:25

I mean, a lot of his favorite places were restaurants. You always go to these, like, wonderful Cantonese places, you know, with the dim sums with the steamed fish. Very local, very, you know, almost traditional, but very simple dishes. And I think going back to the first day he arrived, he has kind of this. And even back to the chocolate story, he has this relationship with food that gave him, you know, was one of those things that gave him a lot of joy in life. I mean, not only Was it absolutely delicious? But for me it was that contrast.

9:31

What do you mean?

10:05

I think, you know, obviously people know how Hong Kong looks like. You know, these massive man made skyscrapers that threaten to touch the sky. And so you could have this massive metropolis but still have these kind of hole in the wall type of place. And as a kid, that's kind of the moment where you kind of see the eastern influence of the place. Hong Kong was a city as steeped in Chinese culture, but then also had western values. Free press, freedom of expression. We had a very strong rule of law. You know, it was one of the freest cities in that part of the world. You know, growing up, you kind of. You very much realize that. In fact, I still remember when dad started his newspaper and I remember going to the printing presses with him and it was pretty incredible. You would hear the machines that were non stop and you go up railings to see the machines from up top. And I think I must have been eight or nine. So my dad took me by the hand and then the other hand had touched the railings. And I still remember looking at my hand, I looked at it and my hand was black from the ink. And it was one of those moments where I kind of knew what dad did for work. I think it was one of those moments that made it very real for me.

10:07

And was journalism something that you wanted to do? Was owning a newspaper something that you wanted to do? This entire line of work that your dad and is doing, it wasn't something

11:41

that I particularly wanted to do. And I think part of the reason is because he was very free in terms of how he wanted us to live our lives.

11:52

So he kind of freed you from that expectation to pursue what you wanted.

12:05

Yeah, exactly. He knew that this was his fight, you know, especially there were occasions where he was followed by a house, was firebombed, someone skinned a dog and pinned it on our door.

12:10

Wow.

12:23

And so, you know, Dan knew that this wasn't a fight. It wasn't a. He would say himself that it wasn't necessarily a fight that he wanted to pass on to his kids because he knew the tremendous sacrifice. And in fact, I think that's what is so remarkable about him. This idea of someone arriving as a stowaway and becoming one of the most successful business people and then saying that I'm going to sacrifice all that success, all of those opportunities to stand up for what is right. And I still remember this moment. It's me, him and my mother, we're in London walking through Hyde park and it's a sunny day. And my father was, you know, he learned how to sing. To be completely honest, he didn't sing that well, but he liked to sing. And that's how, you know, that's how you get better. And on this beautiful day in London, he's just singing in the park.

12:24

What was he singing?

13:22

He was singing Ave Maria.

13:24

Wow.

13:26

Yeah.

13:26

A difficult song for anyone.

13:27

Yes. Yes, that's very true. You know, thinking back that day, just my father, you know, the sun shining on him, saying avenue at the top of his lungs. Even at that age, I think I was maybe 14, 15, a thought came to me that it's what personal freedom looks like. You know, here's a man who loves life, who loves so many different elements of life. And when he escaped China, that was what he escaped for. And it was a moment where I realized he had long achieved that, that he had the wealth, the status, the appreciation of someone that was free of someone that was truly free. And had he stayed there, had he stayed in London, you know, he's a British citizen, he's got a British passport, he would have had personal freedom.

13:29

Hmm.

14:30

But despite that said that, actually I can't just be a person who lives for my own pleasure.

14:31

And you were starting to understand that even as it sounds like a teenager.

14:41

Yeah.

14:45

That your dad was a man who could have lived, if he chose to, in a state of constant indulgence. You know, his whole life could have been essentially walking through a very beautiful park, singing. And instead he chose a very different life with a great deal more risk and struggle. Yeah.

14:46

I think he chose a life that instead of life that would have been outwardly beautiful, he chose one of inward beauty.

15:09

Hmm.

15:19

One that, you know, has landed him in the Hong Kong prison.

15:22

We'll be right back.

15:34

Struggling to see up close. Make it visible with viz. VIZ is a once daily prescription eye drop to treat blurry near vision for up to 10 hours. The most common side effects that may be experienced while using VIS include irritation, temporary dim or dark vision, headaches, and eye redness. Talk to an eye doctor to learn if VIZ is right for you. Learn more@viz.com I'm Luke Van Der Plug.

15:38

I'm a producer on the Daily. Probably my favorite part of working on the show is when we get to hear directly from our listeners, you guys, about how your lives are being impacted by the news. I've spent entire days of my life listening to hundreds of recordings that you all have sent in. It's wildly beautiful to hear all of Your voices. And it's a huge reminder of the relationship that we have with our listeners. Every episode of the Daily is made for you to help you understand the world and understand your place in it a little bit better. We're able to bring you these stories because of a group of you who are subscribers to the New York Times. The Daily runs on the journalism of the New York Times, and the New York Times runs on subscribers. So if you love what we do, consider subscribing to the New York Times.

16:03

I'm curious if you anticipated at any point that the promises that China made about Hong Kong's freedoms, I wonder when you started to sense that those promises were not going to be kept.

17:00

For me, at least it was 2014 during the umbrella protest.

17:20

These are pro democracy.

17:27

Exactly. Pro democracy protest. I was a university student at that point, and dad used to go out every day and join the protest. He would stand up there with a microphone and give speeches and then tell people to stand up for this and do it peacefully and whatnot. He was always a man of peace, but he was tear gassed or somebody even shot a canister at him. And then there was once where they threw pig innards on him.

17:28

Wow.

17:58

And then once the tear gas came, he'd sort of wipe his face and then go back up again and talk again.

17:59

As this is happening, are you out in the streets with your dad? Are you participating in those 2014 protests?

18:07

Yeah, I was out on the streets, but I wasn't with dad.

18:13

But you were protesting?

18:15

Yeah, yeah, I was protesting. I mean, I was also hit with two canisters as well. And I still remember I was with my girlfriend, now wife at that time, and I just told her, like, look, let's just turn around and start walking. And then you feel prickle at the back of your neck and then you breathe in and you know, all the tear gas. I still remember that. I mean, you know, nothing compared to what dad was doing, which he was literally on the front lines.

18:17

Was he encouraging you to get involved in the protests?

18:53

Look,

18:59

I don't think it was something that he needed encouraging. I think, you know, at that point we realized that we're fighting for these freedoms, for our home and for our kids and their kids, you felt like you were part of something that was bigger than yourself.

19:01

Of course, after the 2014 protests, which died down for some period of time, by 2019, they are in full blossom once again. People are out in the streets and those protests end up centering around this now infamous National Security law that Starts to take freedoms away in a pretty formal way. And I have to imagine that in the back of your head in that period, you're starting to wonder what all this means for your father. What was for you the first sign that Chinese authorities might be coming for your dad?

19:27

I think it was the brutality by some of the police officers and the crackdowns on a lot of the protests. The phrase I'll use is kind of overzealousness.

20:16

Oh, my God.

20:32

Oh, my God. There was a kind of a social contract that was broken between the people of Hong Kong and the police at that point.

20:33

This was new.

20:41

Yeah, this was new. And then from there, obviously, the actual passing of the National Security Law, and obviously many people were told that to leave at that point because, I mean, everybody kind of knew that he was one of the main targets, that that

20:42

law seemed to have his name written

20:59

all over it, that it was kind of like, you know, almost tailor made for him, so to speak.

21:01

Did you ever try to persuade your dad to lay low, to perhaps stop what he was doing in this period?

21:09

I, I, I honestly I've thought about that a lot and I, I didn't, I didn't. And, and I keep thinking about why I did not do it, because even at that point, I knew that there was a possibility that I'll never see my father again if he stayed in Hong Kong. I also knew that there's a few opportunities in life where you're, where you're called almost by your principles to do the right thing. And obviously everybody knows that leaving would have been a much more comfortable choice, but he knew that it was a wrong choice. And Azra San, I could see that he knew that it was the wrong choice. He knew that he was a captain and that he needed to go down with the ship and that by staying he could almost act as a lightning rod for the persecution to come.

21:20

Hong Kong police on Monday made the highest profile arrest yet under China's new National Security Law for the city. Media tycoon Jimmy Lai.

22:21

Hong Kong media tycoon Jimmy Lai has been arrested under Beijing's.

22:30

And then what you feared happens. He's arrested. Where were you when he was arrested?

22:34

So I was actually, I was on a business trip in Taiwan and remember back in those days there was quarantine, so I was still in quarantine. Then someone knocks on my door at five in the morning and tells me that dad had been arrested, that they sent dozens of National Security Police officers to our home to grab him and then perk, walk him through his own office.

22:45

Right. A pretty elaborate power play, let's just be honest.

23:06

Right.

23:18

I mean, they take him from his home where they've arrested him to his office. To say something to the world.

23:18

Yeah. To say something to the world and to all his journalists as well.

23:26

Yeah.

23:31

And, yeah, I thought I was going to go back to Hong Kong, but they started arresting other people, and. Yeah. And I knew that it wasn't. It wasn't safe.

23:52

I mean, is it. Is it safe to assume that you understood that if you had returned, you yourself might be arrested?

24:06

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

24:14

Did any part of you think about going anyway? I mean, I know your father freed you from the obligations of being a freedom fighter, you know, taking over his business, but did any part of you think I should go back?

24:18

Yeah. Yeah, of course. When I first heard that he was arrested, I wanted to do all I can to free my father. And it's heartbreaking.

24:38

I don't mean to be provocative, but I'm curious if not going back entails any kind of feelings of guilt.

24:53

I actually.

25:15

I

25:16

think that that might be something that you have to ask me again in four or five years. I mean, I think some part of me obviously wants to see him more than anything. I haven't seen him in five years. I haven't been able to tell him in person how much I miss him, how proud I am of him. But what can I do for Hong Kong? I'll feel powerless to kind of just see him through this glass screen and talk to him on the phone. If they even let me do that. At least by doing what I'm doing now, there's a chance me seeing him again, seeing him again as a free man.

25:18

Hmm. If the advocacy you're doing to try to get him out were to work.

26:01

Yeah, exactly.

26:08

Do you have any contact with your dad right now? In prison.

26:12

So. So I can't speak to him. I can't go back and see him, but I can still write him letters.

26:16

He sends you letters?

26:23

He sends me letters, and I send letters back.

26:25

Is there anything he said to you in a letter that you can share with us?

26:27

To be honest, we just talk about what's happening in my life, family, what he's doing at the moment. And a lot of it is reading, and a lot of it is drawing these kind of religious drawings. He's a very strong Catholic, so he draws pictures of Christ, of Mother Maria. You know, that's his way of sort of being in touch with his faith. And you can imagine if you're you know, in the solitary environment, it's just between you and God and it's. Yeah, I mean, it's very moving.

26:34

Do you know if he still sings?

27:12

That's a good question, actually. I don't know. I don't know.

27:17

I mean, are you wondering if there's really any chance you're ever gonna see him again, or does it feel to you like you really have lost your dad in all of this?

27:26

You know, I've been campaigning on his behalf for the last few years and when you do these things, you just have to be hope. But yeah, it's. Yeah, it's very distressing because I just don't know when it is that I'm gonna get a text to tell me that something bad has happened to him. But until then, I'll keep fighting until he's freed.

27:40

What in your mind is the scenario in which he is. Is it Western leaders negotiating his release?

28:10

Yeah, it's to put pressure on both Hong Kong and China. And the thing is, there's no, you know, there's no upside for China to keep him in there anymore. And if, if the idea of China is this place, as they would say themselves, of, you know, quote unquote, stability of being a superpower, well, torturing a 78 year old man, it's counter to what they hope to achieve.

28:19

But you know this well, and I don't mean to diminish what is no doubt such an agonizing situation for you, but what China accomplishes by doing what they're doing to your father is telling everyone in Hong Kong that protests is futile. Because look what we can do, look what we have done to one of the richest and most powerful men in the city.

28:53

Yeah, I think that's what a lot of people think. But this idea of using my father's case as a deterrent, I mean, the effect has already been done. Essentially, he's already been there for five years. They've already destroyed his health, they've already taken everything away from him. All they're doing now is making him into a martyr. There's no point in him dying. And I think if we look at my father's story, a man who's given so much for freedom, I think he deserves some freedom himself.

29:19

I want to ask you about Hong Kong itself. When you think about the situation your father is now in and may or may not ever emerge from

30:02

the pro

30:17

democracy movement, as best we can tell, is basically over. Especially now that such an important leader of its cause is locked away,

30:18

is

30:30

the vision of Hong Kong as a place that could have any form of freedom. Is that officially over?

30:30

Look, I can't predict the future, right. But I think one has, has to ask, what is the difference between Hong Kong and any other city in China? I mean, there's still some, you know, short term differences, but. But really in the long term, what is the fundamental difference? Many people would argue that there isn't.

30:40

There isn't any difference.

31:04

Yeah.

31:06

Hong Kong is China now. And does that mean that the Hong Kong that your father fought for. It might be hard to hear these words, but it's gone.

31:07

I honestly, I don't know. I think. I think it's always in people's hearts. It's obviously a very sad thought. Maybe the Hong Kong that dad and many people fought for is now oppressed. But I wouldn't, I hope it's not gone. Hmm. You know, I always thought I'd have a family in Hong Kong, get married there, see my grandma, my parents every now and then, and, you know, have yum cha with the family on Sundays. But it's very easy to take it for granted that Hong Kong was always going to be the way it was going to be. Or at least I think it was very easy for me to take it for granted. It's like that office quote, you know, the office TV show where one of the characters says, I wish they'd tell you that you're living in the good times when you are living in a good time, you know.

31:36

Do you have children of your own now?

32:58

Yeah, yeah, I've got a. I've got one.

33:01

Mm. How old?

33:03

She turned 2 recently, so she's never met my father before.

33:06

Does she know of him?

33:12

Yeah, yeah. She sees pictures of him and. Yeah, yeah. His grandfather in Cantonese and she'll say, yeah, like 47 pages. It's very sweet.

33:14

Has your father addressed her in any of his letters?

33:24

Yeah, yeah. He's. He's obviously incredibly happy. I mean, you know how grandparents are.

33:28

He.

33:35

He misses her without having ever met her.

33:36

That must be. Really hard.

33:45

Yeah. But she'll grow up knowing that she'd be proud of her grandfather as well.

33:53

Right. Whether she gets to meet him or not.

34:00

Yeah.

34:05

And hopefully one day she will get to meet him.

34:09

Yeah, hopefully one day she will. That'd be a great day.

34:12

Sa,

34:27

We'll be right back.

35:00

Struggling to see up close. Make it visible with viz. VIZ is a once daily prescription eye drop to treat blurry near vision for up to 10 hours. The most common side effects that may be experienced while using viz Eye irritation, temporary dim or dark vision, headaches, and eye redness. Talk to an eye doctor to learn if VIZ is right for you. Learn more@viz.com hi, I'm Solana Pyne.

35:07

I'm the Director of Video at the New York Times. For years, my team has made videos that bring you closer to big news moments, videos by Times journalists that have the expertise to help you understand what's going on. Now we're bringing those videos to you in the Watch tab in the New York Times app. It's a dedicated video feed where you know you can trust what you're seeing. All the videos there are free for anyone to watch. You don't have to be a subscriber. Download the New York Times app to start watching.

35:32

Here's what else you need to know Today. Netflix has backed away from its deal to acquire Warner Bros. Discovery, a stunning development that paves the way for the storied Hollywood media giant to end up under the control of the technology heir David Ellison. Netflix said that for business reasons, it would not match Ellison's higher offer for Warner Bros. That means that Ellison's company, Paramount Skydance, will soon own two major studios plus cbs, HBO and cnn. And during a closed door videotaped deposition on Thursday, Hillary Clinton, the former first lady Democratic nominee for President and Secretary of State, scolded the Republican led committee investigating Jeffrey Epstein for compelling her to testify when she said she has never met Epstein and had no known knowledge of his criminal activities. The hearing was briefly halted when a Republican committee member, Representative Lauren Boebert, leaked a photograph of Clinton's testimony to a conservative podcaster. House rules strictly prohibit taking photographs of closed door hearings.

36:03

Today we are sitting through an incredibly unserious clown show of a death deposition

37:27

where members of Congress and the Republican

37:34

Party are more concerned about getting their

37:36

photo op of Secretary Clinton than actually

37:39

getting to the truth and holding anyone accountable.

37:42

Democrats on the committee, including Representative Yasmin Ansari, mocked the proceedings as a partisan political stunt that would do little to hold Epstein and his network of wealthy friends accountable. Today's episode was produced by Shannon Lynn, Lindsay Garrison and Rob Zipko with help from Michael Simon Johnson. It was edited by Maria Byrne with help from Lexi Diaw. Contains original music by Elisheba Itu, Dan Pat and music by Romy Misto, Marian Lozano and Pat McCusker, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley with help from Chris Wood. Special thanks to David Pearson. That's it for the daily I'm michael barbaro. See you on Sunday.

37:46

Struggling to see up close. Make it visible with viz. VIZ is a once daily prescription eye drop to treat blurry near vision for up to 10 hours. The most common side effects that may be experienced while using viz eye irritation, temporary dim or dark vision, headaches and eye redness. Talk to an eye doctor to learn if VIZ is right for you. Learn more@viz.com.

39:05