Joe Spector on Building Hims, Dutch & the Future of Telemedicine | Coffeez with Joe Shalaby

What's up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of Coffees for Closers. Today, I'm sitting down with an absolute legend, someone I'm truly a fan of, and I use their products on the daily, and they continue to gain more market share and help a lot of men. What started off as a crazy vision is now a household name. Please welcome the co-founder of HIMSS, Joe Spector. Welcome to another episode of Coffees. Hey, I'm so excited to chat with you. So I'm going to dive right into it. I got a lot of questions. I'm really excited about all the things that you're doing, the projects that you have underway, the way you're really, you know, changing the landscape of so many different things. But before I dive into that, let's ease the waters. Joe, you look like you're in great shape. What's your morning routine? I am part of a group of dads called the dojo. And three days a week, we have a 530 a.m. hour, hour and a half workout. And then on the other days, I'm doing some sort of a Peloton cardio workout. and it kind of serves two things one is that it's good for my mental health but it's also been a way to build community I think men oftentimes it's hard to find camaraderie and as an entrepreneur there's so much shit that we're dealing with all the time and it's been pretty awesome to find this group of guys to connect with. So that's kind of been my secret power. That's so cool. How'd you find them? It took, I mean, it's in the small community where I live. And it took me a while because I am not a morning person. In fact, through college And even before kids, I could easily sleep to noon to even into like two o'clock in the afternoon if I had my way. And I think I have kids. So they were a force function that got me up in the morning. But this workout group, it meets so early. I never thought I could do it. But just like so many things, if you prioritize it, you'll make it happen. And the thing is, every time I leave the workout, I feel so ready for the day. It has definitely been a game changer to my routine. And I've been doing it now almost three years. And like I said, I'm in the best shape of my life in my 40s. Yeah, that's awesome. You look like you're in great shape. I train every day, and I try to be a part of so many dads' groups. I got four kids. I'm involved in all their sports. I'm still an athlete. I'm still an athlete. I'm still an athlete. Basketball, pickleball, like you name it. I'm just a big kid. I collect sports cards with my boys. Whatever it takes to be a kid, I'm like doing it. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Yeah, so let's talk about a couple journeys you have. Let's first off, and I know about the journey that you had with starting HIMSS, but let's take it back. Let's start with how did HIMSS start? How did you come up with the name, the concept, and what did people think when you came up with that company? When HIMSS started, it was so classic looking back. And in the middle of it, you don't realize what's happening, but looking back, it was so classic. because it really was an idea on a whiteboard. And for me, it's like they say, you know, it's opportunities, luck is preparation plus opportunity. So by the time even I got to the table of the whiteboard, this is already, you know, 15, 20 years of everything that happened before. Being an immigrant, having, I've probably gone through at that point almost a dozen startups that didn't work out. So it was the hustle and all those lessons learned that by the time I got to HIMSS and I saw that opportunity, I was also ready to take advantage of it. And so that's kind of the preamble on HIMSS. what appealed to me a couple of things by that point I sort of said to myself like what's important which is I love working with consumer businesses because they affect people's everyday lives they make people's lives better and that was something that was important to me that was gonna motivate me to you know stay up all night to you know and be creative for how I get things done because I love consumer businesses. I love the impact that it has on people. So that was one thing that drove me to the opportunity. And then, of course, personal experience, obviously, I don't have hair and men's wellness. I understood the problem. I understood that if I had this in my 20s, it would have been a game changer. And I think combined with you know, my own experience being an immigrant, not growing up with a lot of money, I knew very clearly, like the reason I didn't know this existed is because I'm not, you know, wealthy enough to have my own kind of private dermatologist. So the opportunity spoke to me. And then once we started going and executing on it, it just took off like crazy. We spent about a year in stealth mode. And at the time it was actually called club room. So we spent, you know, getting the pharmacy. At the time, there was lots of legal challenges because telemedicine was not as prevalent as it today. And many states actually didn't allow telemedicine without a physical exam first. Which, by the way, is all these lessons I later took into my company Dutch. But putting all the pieces together was something I was prepared for. And once we went to market, I think it basically took off like wildfire. And so then a year in, we used an agency. I was part of the team that helped brand it HIMSS. That name, you know, kind of just, we probably looked at like 50 different names and that name, pretty much everyone saw how cool that name was. And then it took off. you have to remember the other interesting thing is like every startup is kind of like a snowflake because the stars and the moon have to align and sort of all these things happen for a reason at the time Viagra was going generic so that was like a huge opportunity and then we're also in a world where interest rates were almost zero. And so we were raising 50 to $100 million of venture capital almost every quarter. Like in today's market, that's unheard of. So like I said, I think what happened in some is that it was this perfect storm where I think I was ready for the opportunity. but once it started to once we started to execute it just really took off and i would say i didn't look back until we went public what now you uh you said a couple things here number one interest rates were zero and you had you kind of there was a snowball effect that you really got to leverage and you came up with a concept where there was a extreme need with viagra going uh going generic now the what i found insanely fascinating with the strategy for hymns was it was in every health club in the nation in every locker room in every jacuzzi all it was like all you could and how brilliant of a strategy to market when men are in their peak vein state like they're looking at themselves naked in the mirror just got out of the sauna at the gym and they go i need this you know i don't know how you came up with that marketing play but it was so direct and it hit you like you know i i remember distinctly i don't know if it was 10 years set five years ago? I don't even remember. But it was like, you got to just try this product. And it was just every day, all the time, every time you go to the gym, the strategy was right to the point, hit you like a bag of rocks in your face. And I thought that was just an incredible marketing strategy. I was blown away by it. How did you come up with that strategy? we i mean we had a great marketing team i think to the bigger thing of what you're saying and and this is like an entrepreneurial lesson learned in general from all that to put even in a bigger context is there are no rules make your own rules create your own uh in this case you know create your own spaces create your own opportunities because we weren't going to do the traditional you know let's advertise on Facebook and Google and let's run this ad everything was what I learned from HIMSS is to think big dream big and you know don't create these boundaries so we advertised in gyms and that was a super cool get but we also we advertised uh we did a campaign where we advertised in urinals. We advertised- I saw that too. Every nightclub, every gym, basically anywhere where their men cared about their appearance. Yeah. We created our own ad inventory out of nowhere. And like I said, I think it was part of an overall philosophy of we're not gonna let traditional advertising but frankly traditional anything control us or box us in yeah it was definitely a very untraditional almost like um anti campaign you know you don market in bathrooms like as a true like that not a normal way to market a business you know like we had the penis cactus And I think that if you ask kind of before, it almost felt like marketing suicide to do something like that. but we made it fun and cool. And the whole point was, let's get rid of this stigma. Let's normalize the conversation. Let's make this something easy to talk about. And we definitely did that. We had a great marketing team that executed. And like I said, made us approach the brand in a non-traditional way. Now, one thing I'm fascinated by in my research for this show and kind of studying what you've done is, you know, when you started HIMSS, you started it with, you know, a Viagra alternative and a hair product. And people just thought you were crazy for doing that. You faced a lot of backlash. You had multiple failed startups. And I think what I forget the term you referenced it as, but you basically it was like par for the course for you. It was just a part of the journey. You know, you looked at it like, you know, just just taking a beating as part of the journey, which is a great way to basically take entrepreneurship's less life's lessons that it feeds you. What was it like when you you're like you failed six times and now you're going to come. You came up with another concept, totally outlandish. How did you deal with that mensage? Everyone probably wanted you to do something like, go be a doctor or something. Go do something totally normal. I got a crazier idea now. I got even a crazier idea. What was it like just going all in after multiple failures on this project that had never been done? At this point in my journey, you have to just be honest with yourself and honest kind of with the bullshit meter. And for me, whatever it is I'm doing, deep down in my bones, I really do believe what I'm doing is good for the world, for the end customer. I think what I'm doing is the right thing. because if it was a gimmick, then that would be a lot harder to take the punches on the face. But because in my heart of hearts, I believe that what I'm building at the moment is so great, is so helpful with Dutch. For example, today we're helping millions of pets get care for the first time. 50% of pet owners that come to Dutch say that they have not been to a vet in years. Three years. That's crazy. And our report that we're about to release, the state of online pet is saying that today in America, 75 million pet owners skipped care because of cost or access, 75 million so i know that what we're building at dutch is ultimately good but yes like as a result i get called out i get crazy people who are angry and mad at me um but i know i'm doing the right thing for ultimately in this case bets so it just boils down to follow your gut trust your instinct make sure that you're doing good for the world and God has a way. Totally. I think in the end, it will work out if what you're doing is not a gimmick and ultimately good. That's not FDA approved. And you're basically saying you're going to regrow your hair or we're going to solve your erectile dysfunction. How does that even work with all the legalities behind launching a product that's basically part of medicine. And it's like I'm in a hyper-regulated industry, but man, medicine's even more hyper-regulated. It's like now with the peptide business, like doing it as a blacklisted strategy with all these new gimmicks that are coming out in the medicine space. But you guys were in your face marketing everywhere you go. So I know that regulators were up your butt, you know, like, so how, walk me through that process. Cause I'm very curious about it as an entrepreneur. Everything is, um, calculated risk. So in our case, the products we're selling are not addictive. And so, you know, they're not controlled substances. So I think that was one thing, you know, it's not like, um, the likelihood of you dying by taking too much Viagra. or that you're going to get addicted to Viagra. That's not likely. So that was kind of like one barometer. The other one is that, like I said, we knew that ultimately this was going to lead to greater good. Lots of people had no, like me, in terms of hair or ED, had no idea that this was even on the market. Just to put some context, one Viagra pill was almost like $50 to $100 for one pill. And the generic is just a few dollars. So the level of access that opens up is incredible. And without HIMSS, I don't think people really would have known that this is something they can actually get access to. and we kind of to some extent see the same thing today because at Dutch we might talk about really common medicines that a dog might have like flea and tick or almost two-thirds of dogs have a behavior anxiety issue but the fact that you have to bring your dog into an office people just kind to say, you know what, it's not that bad, just forget, I'm not going to do anything. But by opening it up, and with telemedicine, it's so frictionless, it's so accessible, that it just brings so many more people into the medical fold. So that's what HIMSS did. So I think, ultimately, like the question was, that we'd ask ourselves is, you know, if we were in front of a stayed bored, like who's going to be upset that we made a bunch of guys hair grow at a cheap price? Like who's who's being hurt in this situation? And so I think it felt like a low level of risk to take. Hymns, the erectile dysfunction pill was a competitor to Viagra at a fraction of the price, right? So that's where it gets tricky because the generic is not necessarily FDA approved, but the way that the regulations are is that a doctor, a human doctor can write you something off label or can kind of give you a choice and can give you an off label option as a choice is kind of ultimately how it works. So I guess the other lesson learned from HIMSS into Dutch is that when you're in a highly regulated industry, the letter of the law and knowing laws, especially in this case, healthcare is regulated at the state level. So it's kind of like 50 countries. You have to know the exact wording of each state's laws. And knowing the wording can make a world of difference to how you're able to execute your venture. Yeah. So it's funny because in my business, the mortgage business, finance money that we lend, we lend nationwide, we state regulator. and then you have like an overseer of the entire country. And then you have like an overseer of the entire country of the, you know, like another overseer above them, which is the CFPB. It's like, so you got the regulators, then you got the mortgage licensing registry. Then you have the CFPB who regulates all of us. Right. So the nuances with state specific regulation is crazy because you have to mention like in Texas, these words, and then in Arkansas, these words, it's like, I wish there was a simplified solution to these state regulators where it's like, you know, make it easy so we could get products to help people faster. At the end of the day, we're here to serve. We're here to help. I agree. And with this bureaucracy, it's like, you're just making our job tougher and more expensive. You're adding to the legal costs of what's, of having to know state by state. And I think to some extent creating consumer confusion, because like you're saying, the customer is thinking, why are they saying these words they don't make sense to me but like you said you're saying it because you were forced to say them yeah and then and then why are they saying this in california and not in texas i know i know no it definitely it's weird right uh in health care if you broke your foot in california shouldn't we be fixing it the same way in new jersey as we are in california Like what's the difference? That makes no sense. The advent of AI and stuff, things are going to get more streamlined where there's a way where every state is on the same page. They started to roll something out in our industry called SES where every regulator is on one platform so that they can all kind of communicate to it. Because there's been a disruption between if it's regulated at the state level and none of the states talk to each other and they're all asking for the same thing or something different and they all have their own regulation and no one communicates, it's a nightmare. And it's a cluster and it's really disruptive to the industry. Yep. Well, as an immigrant, I know all too well that this is the founding of America is a battle between states' rights and federalism and states' rights. And as a result, this is what happens. Yeah, I'm also an immigrant. I came when I was five. What country did you come from? Uzbekistan, former USSR. Oh, nice. I came from Egypt, so third world, poverty stricken, rose from nothing. How did you come here? So I had an aunt who had married to bring my mom, her sister, over on a visa. And so we immigrated when I was five years old. And what happened was I'm Coptic Orthodox. I don't know if you're Orthodox as well, if you're Russian Orthodox. But we were persecuted. We were like killed off all the time. and it's still happening now where basically the Christians get killed by the Muslims. They go into the churches, they bomb them, et cetera. So we came on asylum Wow Because we were getting killed off And we moved to the valley We were living in apartments My dad was a physician in Egypt and then came to America had to start med school all over in his 30s and worked as a gas station attendant Still grinds till this day. But the immigrant mentality is one of absolute grit. I started working really young. My dad still works as a physician till this very day, 76 years old, just turned 76, January 31st. And it's funny because he was just telling me this story. Went to this clinic. He moved. Now he'd commute. He lives in Costa Mesa. He bought a house in Hemet, commutes from Hemet to Costa Mesa, which is a couple hours. And then he retired from that job in Hemet, got a small job at a small clinic in Costa Mesa. And then now they called him back in Hemet. Now he's going to work two jobs as a physician. I'm like, dad, you're 76 years old. Like you don't need two jobs. You don't even need to make money. you're insane. Like crazy. I get it. Like two jobs, 76 years old hustling two jobs. That just shows you like what, like that always is a reminder to me, like how much I suck, you know, like how much I'm like my dad's 76 hustling two jobs. Like, why am I slacking? Trust me that I feel that way too. Why am I slacking? It's hard. I feel like for some of the people who work with me because then that immigrant mentality I think is all over them and where I'm also feeling like I'm tough on myself too like why am I slacking but I feel like with people I work with it can that intensity is just kind of it's foreign and so I think it it It can be, it can be a lot. It rubs them the wrong way. Rubs them the wrong way. Sometimes freaks them out a little bit, huh? Yes. I think once they know where they're coming from, at least they have context. But yeah, I have a, you know, my, that's, it, it, it's so awesome to meet other people who, because I think our stories are aligning pretty, pretty similarly in terms of also coming you're on asylum and kind of the grit and the hustle that you just have built into you. Now I'm going to ask you a question because, you know, you came from poverty, immigrant. Now you're in abundance. And this is something I'm struggling with as a father. I have four kids. How many kids you have? I have three kids. Okay. So how are you instilling that same level of tenacity, grit, work ethic as they have this abundance. They're given everything, you know, and you know, they're not coming from poverty. They don't have to work at 13 years old. Yep. And it's something I struggle with because all their friends are wealthy, you know? So, you know, it's, it's a struggle for me and I'm actively working on making sure and every day talking to my kids about hard work and I got them in all these activities and I'll tell you my protocol. Um, what do you instill that same mindset and grit and the ability to rise above and with their back against the wall mentality? I'm definitely trying. I feel like we'll see as they progress. But in terms of little things, I think one thing, first of all, in general, and I say this even at Dutch too, is no one's too good to take out the trash. So all of them, they have to pick up my dog, Eddie. They have to pick up his poops all the time. And they're always the ones taking out the garbage and sweeping the front of the house. So I want to make sure they don't feel like they're too good to do chores like that. I think the other thing is my wife and I were pretty open with them about money and how much things cost. Because, again, I want them to understand the value of a dollar and what it takes to make money. I've also said to them that they're going to be responsible for paying college for themselves. And I've said that they're not getting any money from us because I want them to believe and feel that it's on them to make the decisions for the rest of their lives. They're also, so I'm Russian and I speak Russian. They're all learning Russian. I want them to learn the Russian language, which kind of language has its own set of kind of cultural, especially, again, I think Russian, a harsh reality that you learn through the literature and through learning the language. And then just other things. So I'm Jewish. And, you know, just recently I took them. We went to Germany and we went to a concentration camp. so I want them to really see that other people definitely have to struggle and like this is like why we're here and the freedom that America offers them so kind of I still think they're you know meanwhile they're you know traveling which I didn't really do until I had my own money and a job but I think I'm you know trying my best to kind of plant some of these seeds so that they're not completely unaware that there's this other world exists that's not privileged like they are. If nobody's listening to my show, I'm the biggest beneficiary because I get to sit with someone like you for an hour, pick your brain on parenting, life, faith, struggles. So, you know, I always ask about parenting advice, especially with high level entrepreneurs, because we all kind of are going through that same struggle because we need our kids to make sure that they're like us or better, ideally better. So I have them like on school from seven to three, then it's dance from three to seven, and then it's more homework from seven to eight. And that's what we do, you and I, right? That's life. Like that's a grind all day and then go to bed and do it again the next day. So all my kids starting at like three, four, like my four-year-old, it's school, then it's jujitsu, then it's Kumon, and then it's, you know, wind down. So it's the regimen of that work ethic where it's not easy. Like they don't like going to jujitsu. It's tough. A regimen where it's, oh, emulate, that's work for them. That's the same thing that we do. You know, so it's the same thing kind of where that 30 minutes in front of the iPad or, you know, whatever is earned time, right? I do struggle with electronics. I'd like them to be reading ideally over. So we're fortunate enough to be like the community. The Egyptian community is very tight knit. So we're very involved in the church and the community and the sacraments of the church and making sure that they stay in a faithful place where God is always front and center. So I try to just instill a godly lifestyle. Jews, you know, obviously the Jewish culture and faith is very similar. As long as they're there, it all boils down to doing the right thing. We're all trying to do the right thing and do God's work with whatever venture we have. that's the the mantra of the show that's the vision of my company when i started it so so yeah keep them grinded keep them grounded and i involve my kids in my business as much as i can uh that's why i do why i started content was so my my daughter thought i was cool because i i became like an influencer and her friends were like well her dad's all famous on youtube for a moment there she thought I was the coolest guy. I don't get that with my kids. But I will definitely. No, no, it's not anymore, except to my boys. I'm cool to them because I play sports and stuff. But no, my goal is like, okay, if my daughter thinks I'm cool, that's all my goal is. But she doesn't think I'm cool anymore. Because I stopped doing that. My board doesn't let me do that kind of content. Like, it was fun, YouTube. I'm a finance CEO. Like, I got to keep it pretty rigid. That's where I am. I will. I'll definitely also involve my kids in Dutch. And my favorite that I love to do is a role play and negotiation with them. And because kids are kind of so innocent, but they don't have the filters and all the built in stop gaps that we have in our brains as adults. they always I end up getting pretty good advice on a potential negotiation with them. And it may not be exactly, you know, word for word, but I think they've definitely inspired me in negotiations to ask for something or to the way after a role play, it's been kind of fun to see their suggestion. You know, oftentimes their suggestions are just that's that's what you should go with because that's raw that's authentic that's not right and it's not disillusioned by the world it's like that's just truth speaking to you that's right so when when my son gives me suggestions i'm like you're right i'm gonna go with that oh one thing my boys everyone's proud of my sons it's like everywhere they go when they shake your hand they're trying to break your hand and everyone everyone comments like man that's a great handshake he went to baseball practice yesterday shook all their coaches hands none of the other players had a strong handshake he shook their coach's hands and he smashed his hand like that's our star player gotta go in and make yourself known yeah so i just do that as much as i possibly can but i'm getting coached man i'm doing these podcasts learning from like i said to me um the one of the best things from hymns um that i'm using I think for Dutch is to dream big. I think oftentimes what I learned as an entrepreneur, as an immigrant is when I got to America, I was so busy on survival. I was only able to see things, just what's in front of me. And I think after hymns, I realized that just like what we're, you know, what we're seeing with Elon Musk, who's saying, you know, I'm going to go to Mars or we're going to have AI data centers in space is you've got to dream big, bigger than even maybe you imagine. And then you work backwards to make that dream a reality today. But that was a new way of thinking that I did not have before the HIMSS experience that I'm now taking into Dutch. Oh, I just read a crazy article about Elon Musk and his vertical integration of this whole AI vision of colonizing Mars. It's like, it's unreal what he's doing. Totally. And I'm sure part of it is like, he's just, he's making shit up, but then he's like, how do I make it now? Now let's make that real. And that's one thing that the, I hope the listeners take away. It's like, just dream big, big hairy audacious goals Like Jim Collins book books always talk about Now we didn talk about Dutch as much as I like to So I want to start to I going to pivot the conversation from HIMSS to Dutch because you exited HIMSS or you Yeah I left HIMSS and I got to ring the Newark Stock Exchange bell and I exited in February of 2021 Okay. And Dutch has been around for how long? We're in our fifth year. So we launched in July of 2021. Let's talk about why did you start Dutch? What is Dutch? And what is the problem that it is solving for? I started Dutch because I saw for myself having a dog getting veterinary bills that were crazy expensive. And I realized that it doesn't have to be that way. I had just made human health care far more accessible, far more affordable. And I didn't see anyone doing that when it comes to veterinary care. So I started Dutch. Love that. and Dutch now it's only what 150 bucks a month or is that a year a hundred bucks for unlimited veterinary visits veterinary care for up to five pets and the way you know the way that it works is you go to dutch.com you sign up and you can basically see a human being you know a real local licensed veterinarian who can examine your pet. 90% of the time, our veterinarians are able to start you on a treatment plan, and it saves you hundreds of dollars annually in veterinary bills. I think the other thing that's really cool is we have veterinarians who are open at night, And almost the majority of our calls are happening nights and weekends when the vet office is closed. And your best alternative at the time is to go to urgent care, which is really expensive and can cost you over $1,000. And so Dutch really helps pet owners who are dealing with an issue at night, just like we do with kids. You know, again, don't get sick nine to five. they get sick at night or on weekends. And if you want to avoid a costly urgent care bill, that is definitely a great solution for that. Yeah, I've been fortunate enough to have vet friends and I'd have this issue with the dog and be like, she just ate this and he'll just be, I could call them because they're friends and part of the community. And a lot of the solution was like, just pour hydrogen peroxide down their throat and they'll throw up. I'm sure that's a solution you get from Dutch all the time. People don't have access to vets that they can just call that are their buddies. So many people are going to chat GPT at this point. And there's a world of difference when you can talk to an actual professional who knows what they're talking about when it comes to your pet. So it's pretty cool. Once people experience Dutch, I think they're really blown away at how convenient it is and how much peace of mind and relief that they get. So Dutch is $100 a month, which is like... For the year. For the year? Yes. It's an incredible deal. Oh, man. Yeah, you should sign up. Yeah, no, I'm definitely signing up. $100 a year? And you can just talk to a vet anytime? Anytime, yeah. I don't even know how you're making money with that. I guess volume play. Well, what's great for veterinarians is that they get to do this on their own time. And most vets today are women. And women actually drop out of the workforce. at a huge level because they're not making enough money to justify child care. So this is an opportunity for them to have flexible work from home hours. So typically, it wouldn't be surprising if a veterinarian is a soccer mom sitting in her van at six o'clock while her child is playing soccer and she's doing these calls on the side. Go ahead. Huh. So it's a hundred bucks a year. Like, why is it so cheap? And how are you making money with that? We actually make a decent margin. I think what happens is that on average, people are having two to three phone calls in a year on our system. We also get, we do once, we also do a lot of messaging. So once you have to have a video call initially to set up the relationship, but then you can also, like I said, message, and those are going to be a lot more cost-effective for us. Oh, man, I'm going to tell everybody about Dutch. Best deal ever. Yes. Best deal ever. I don't even need a coupon code to ask you. Just people need to know about it. No. If you go to Dutch.com, you can sign up for less than $100. You have the best branding for names. hymns dutch like you are the ultimate brander thank you everything everything you're every company you've done has just great brand brand recognition thank you thank you very very impressive uh i want to wind down with a couple last questions for you what is a personal goal that you have for yourself what is a family goal that you have for your family and what's a business school that you have for Dutch? Personal goal for myself is find that inner happiness because like we talked about as an immigrant, there's no like stop button. I think I'm Energizer Bunny on all the time. And part of it is, you know, I love building. I love Dutch. I love what I do, but I feel that the battery might run out faster than I think. And so a personal goal is find those moments to recharge and pause and truly step away. And that's a lot of work for me to do that. Goal for my family. Right now, my kids are kind of early teens. And so I'm just trying to soak up every single moment of the day before they leave for college, just because I feel like it'll be here before I know it. Personal goal for Dutch. One of our biggest things is awareness. I think so many people, like we just had this aha moment right now where they don't realize what an incredible value, what an incredible service it is. And I'm sure that after actually having a call with a Dutch vet, you'll be even more blown away. So it's really getting word out there through ambassadors, influencers, and helping people really understand how amazing the service is for people. It is truly amazing. It's amazing. The purpose behind it's amazing. Affordable vet care for the masses is amazing because, you know, I'm in Newport Beach. There's a vet clinic everywhere. But, you know, in Newport, people just spoil the heck out of their dogs. Yep. Yeah. Um, so their dogs, you know, are, but you know, the, the rest of the entire planet, you know, vet care is an issue. We have actually vet insurance. It's thousand bucks or 1500 bucks a year. And that's still a good deal. Yeah. You know, because we, because it covers up to 10 grand or something. Yeah. Well, this is a way to, for a hundred bucks, you don't have to worry about insurance. yeah you don't have to worry about insurance unless you need something but also the inconvenience like dutch.com just jump online boom yeah you get a real professional telling helping you what to do with your pet that just in time savings not going to the vet is huge value 100 bucks everybody's time is worth more than that now absolutely absolutely everyone a minimum wage worker going to the vet and back that's three hours mission waiting so everyone every pet owner should have dutch that that's like a fact there's no like doesn't matter who you are where you are what you do it's a no-brainer sign up for dutch this is like in the best value i've ever seen i mean i even asked the guy how he's making money and like i don't even know it's such thin margin you know so we need as many people to sign up as possible on dutch yes um last question for you yeah joe when you're in front of the pearly gates what do you think god's going to tell you i think that there's a lot of things i did that were good good for others and then i'm sure there's things that i should have been um nicer to my wife and kids because she put up with a lot with me being an entrepreneur. So there's definitely things I could work on. And it goes back to just going and working nonstop, which gives me lots of joy, but can also make me not the best person to be around sometimes. Yeah, it's not easy on wives. Yeah. It's not easy. So it's the hardest thing that women suffer the most from a crazy, eccentric, visionary entrepreneur. Yes, I am so blessed that she is able to put up with it. Yeah, God bless her for that and continue to give her that patience and resilience because it's not easy when she deals with it. Yes. Sure. Well, Joe, God bless you. You've been such a pleasure. The conversation was incredible. I found a lot of value for myself. I hope that those listening also did as well. if people want to connect with you or learn more about you, how can they connect with you? Send me an email, joe at dutch.com. I'm open. Awesome. Joe, such a pleasure. Thank you so much for jumping on today's show. Thanks for having me. I love this chat talking to a fellow immigrant entrepreneur. It was amazing. Thank you so much. Bye.