Music Trademarks & Intellectual Property Explained with Attorney Ron Bienstock

Welcome to Music Matters podcast with Darrell Craig Harris, talking about all things music with celebrities, artists, music business insiders and more. Ron Beanstack, how are you doing today? I am doing very well. Good to see you, Darrell. So you have a very interesting job description, I guess I should say. So you're a trademark intellectual property entertainment, kind of an overview of what you do. An attorney, a very prominent attorney, very well known in the music industry and by music retail and builders. And you also are a musician. You're a bass player. That's correct. It's a, as you know, it's a higher form of being. Exactly. I've always tried to tell my wife that, but she doesn't. Anytime I bring home another bass chord, brother bass shows up at the house, she'll say, oh, this only elevates you one more level. God looks kindly on you for that. So you have a very interesting history and I was reading a lot about you. You've handled some very high profile cases related to trademark and infringement. You've worked with major companies and also smaller companies, but a very long list. So and also I should say you're going to be at the NAMM show. That's part of the reason why we're doing this interview. You're going to be there participating in several panels and speaking and then you're also going to be playing. So yeah, so you have a big story. Tell me about attorney-wise, how you got into doing the area that you're in and handling the kind of cases that you handle. An interesting question because it's not like you plan for anything. It's the great John Lennon line, right? You make plans, then God intervenes. But there's no divine intervention in any of this. It's just a question of places and times. So if you take it going way back, I've been playing since, well, professionally people would say professionally. Yeah, I will say that. Since I was 16, certainly, yeah, certainly probably making the same money I make now. And playing gigs. So I started playing and as you know, when you touch an instrument and it's you and you have that moment of a revelatory moment where you go, oh, this is me. Yeah, you gave that connection. And I became one with bass. I loved it. I had wanted to be a drummer. We couldn't afford drums. I was a highly mediocre trumpet player. I don't know if there's fourths and fifths in orchestra anymore, but I would have been on that bench. You went away with the sevenths chair. Yeah, I would have been seventh chair. They would have looked at me and they go so low and I would sit up. No, no. And so I was one of those people that was not a guitar player first. I was a bass player first. Just fell in love with everything about it. I want to know more about the gear. There was one magazine available to all of us at the time. It was Guitar Player. Right. Everybody of that era. This is 1972, 73. I just aged myself dramatically like an old piece of cheese there. That was it. You got to and if you wanted to learn something, you bought records and you wore them out like I wore out wheels of fire, trying to learn Jack Bruce parts. And then had my different moments about thinking about Jack Bruce retrospectively like this thing. Well, he kind of overplayed. Did he play with Eric? Well, he kind of plays on top of Eric. But you learn those things. And so in the process of trying to understand it and learn it, I think you spend a lot of time becoming a student of the area, the products. And you start to learn about making your own cables. Well, why did I make that? Why is that end of my cable better than this? And so that progresses along to where I just read every magazine, want to know everything about it. And, you know, it was all through college, was obsessed with all the gear, met guys in my school who we played with, you know, for over three years were quite as obsessive as we were and, you know, experimenting on things and building our own stuff. As time went on, I realized, yeah, I really, I really liked the aspect of this. Still one Bible of the world that was guitar player. And then as I left, you know, I just had been. Law school was in my world. I want to be in a chamber attorney. I was going to be dissuaded from that time. And when I was getting out of law school, I was still playing out, played all through all through college, all through law school and all through except my first semester. Of law school, that's not true. My first semester, I vowed not to play play one gig and my grades were really good. And then I immediately joined a band and they sunk down into the the net. They're world. And there goes my sumo cum laude. Where did you go to college? I went to college in upstate New York at Hobart and I went to law school in California specifically to get away from the session scene that I had been involved with in New York because I would never get through school if I got another people to start calling. And yeah, it's hard to hard to stand focus right now. Yeah. So I just left and got as far away as I could. That was intentional. And then after law school, I was still playing with with bands and I had been started doing studio work in LA. And then I got this and I'm trying to be brief about. But I then got this moment where a friend of mine said, hey, you know, that one of those magazines you obsessively read the British magazine called International Musician and Recording World, you know, they're looking for an editor. And I had been an editor of my law school paper and my college paper. Never planned. Right. This is never a plan. But I said, well, why don't I just I'll move back to New York. Maybe I can get this gig and I'll start my practice in New York. I already passed, you know, several of the bar exams. So came into the interview with a magazine marked up with a very high tech weapon called a red pen and handed it to them and said, you know, you can't hand this to American you know, musicians with pound signs and and use the word whilst all the time. Right. Yeah, you got you got to shift gears. Yeah, we got you got to stop saying you put your instrument in the boot of the car. Right. So I I thought it was kind of I would never get this gig. And someone goes, you know what, you're right, you're hired. And then three weeks later, I became the publisher and I ran this magazine for a while. And that's that was my break. And I met all the manufacturers. I went through the whole U.S. with the British owners of the magazine. And I went out on this tour, if you will, not the same tour you have in mind. But we went to I went to manufacturers all across the country, literally. That's where I met Hartley P.V. That's where I met I had met Mike Tobias and I met Roger Sadosky, who was literally down the street from my office. And they're like, oh, you're an attorney, too. I need to talk to you about something. That's exactly what happened. I know I know musicians. Yeah, you know. And and so people would ask me, you know, should I sue this person? I say, no, don't sue them. Let's license this thing. And someone go, how do you have that work? And I said, oh, I could do that for you. And then I would meet musicians. We'd be interviewing producers and musicians and bands and somebody would say, you know, I never got paid for this. And you can see where this is going. So so after through a few years in the magazine, I got an Ivan as in Tom, which is owned by a Japanese company named Hoshino, said, you know, we really need a general counsel. So I became general counsel and I was really pretty young. I was like 29, 30 years old, the general counsel. But how many how many I've just bases do you now own? No, I own. I swear I own none. I don't I don't own any. And I just have a bowser. I know you have to ask. And I have all my comments about it because I so in those days, just trying to get them getting people to, you know, are are the theory in the 80s at that point was that they were still calling themselves like a trading, you know, dealing as a trading company. I was right. Yeah. It was it was confusing. It was very I wanted too many models, too many things. And that was in the first piece of trademark litigation was Yamaha opposed our headstocks and we're looking to keep them from being registered. So I appeared in the TTAB and I did literally play guitar at the in the in the courtroom in the TTAB. That is true. And realize, wow, nobody, nobody knows what you and I would know. Right. Yeah. Because the average person doesn't know the intricacies of all that stuff and the headstocks and the and the different stuff. Yeah. What's how can you how do you trademark a headstock, a body style, which is exactly I know you're very well known for all that kind of litigation. And it started in the 80s and we won that matter. It got appealed to one on appeal. But that time went right just in that period. I said I open up my own practice and in 87. And it was really very I was very fortunate. It was really quick because I knew all these musicians, all these producers and all these people who said, you know, I've got this contract. I've got that contract. I've got this contract. And so I started representing all these artists and then as time went on, as you said, hey, I've got this trademark problem. And the you know, so one of the first matters was that heritage late 80s, early 90s heritage lawsuit. And essentially because I read that and actually I went and met those guys. We I was with Frankie Avalon and we were in Kalamazoo. And I'm like, I wonder if the Gibson factory is still open. And I called them and I think it was Grendel, the gentleman that was they were all older guys. Yeah, they were actually the real custom shop for Gibson, because those were the guys that were third, fourth generation Gibson guys that didn't want to move to Nashville. Correct. And they were making some really interesting stuff. But it was all basically Gibson. So anyway, go ahead. Sorry, but no, no, you're here. You're spot on. I mean, and that was the theory. I mean, if you're going to sell us the factory, the jigs dies in the molds. Right. The iconic smokes, iconic smoke stacks. The iconic smoke stack, which I think just got torn down recently. Right. Oh, I don't know. Yeah, I think it did recently. But and they, you know, these are people you're right, second, third generation builders, and so they just built the same thing. And eventually there was, you know, the contra-toms between them. But we, you know, look, we, we worked that all out and and everybody went on their way, which is the most important thing that the guitar industry shouldn't be stultified by litigation where we it's not big enough. And we all want the same thing. We all want the success of all these companies. So that was where it started. And by that same time, though, I had in the days we did this, we was to shop bands, hand quotes in the air. In the days we did that, we I still get asked about that every day. No, that doesn't happen really anymore. Yeah, it's kind of dead, unfortunately. That's over. But in the day, you know, you you made those connections for the artists to the A&R people. And it's also when I started playing with clients by accident. Hey, we need a bass player. And this is how it started. I know. It's like everybody needs a bass player. It's funny how like that's one of the cool things if you could. For me, it was always I could read and I could sing. I went to musicians Institute way back when. And and so like that's part of the reason why I moved from LA to Vegas, because I could work seven nights a week here. And the thing in LA was kind of drying up in the, you know, later eighties. So yeah. Yeah, and you are a great bass player. And you've had you played with a lot of folks too, I should say. And what's what's do you have a main band that you're playing with or how does that work? So it works this way. I have a recording act Rich Chalanda and Flying Dreams. Rich was the guitar player in Renaissance. Oh, yeah, that was a great band. Great band. He, when the original guitar player DiBridge took over and then when Rich left, that's another client matter, right? I'm this is exactly how things work. How I couldn't make this up if I tried. Rich is in my office. He's asked me about some agreement. He got referred to me by a manager who I've known for years. I said, oh, that's easy. Let's take care of this for you. And he sees all my I've got a gig bag over here and he goes, you're playing tonight. And I said, yeah, I'm playing, I'm playing about two miles away. I'm playing at this place called, literally was called Cool Beans. Not a joke. That's really what it was called. And I and it was a great four piece band. I think we were doing that night. We're going to play some Steely Dan and who knows what we're going to do. And it was always sort of in prompt to and I said, Rich, come and play with us. And Rich writes things in seven, nine, 13, you know. Yeah, because Renaissance was kind of a progressive. It was like a progressive middle aged. It's really interesting that. Yes. And Annie at that point was Annie Haslam, the singer is probably in her 60s at that stage, maybe 70. And Rich, Rich came to gig and he said, that was fun. And I said, yeah. And he goes, hey, you want to play a track on my solo record? And I said, I know he had a solo record. He goes, yeah. And then we, we made that record and that record became the first album. It was just the two of us. And then we added everybody onto it and started playing festivals and those can have a life of their own. And some of that's on YouTube. And I mean, some of these players are, I've been so lucky to have played with these amazing people like Rich, you know, and, you know, just God, just these talented people, but they're all hilarious to me because I'll say to Rich, well, that's four or four. You don't know how to do that. Yeah, exactly. This is the downbeats. Right. This is, this is going to blow your mind. I guess it's just straight ahead. You know, but Kendall, Kendall Scott is, you know, the keyboard player, Jay Diddamo, amazing drummer. So we had all these great moments back and forth. And then I play with a ton of other quartets, quintets. I sub a lot. I play with clients. I try to not have more than four or five gigs a month because I have other things I've got to do. Yeah, you're a busy guy. That's for sure. So if you're, yeah, I'm sorry, I interrupted you. No, that's okay. I was going to say, so I know one of the most notable cases that you had related to, I guess, trademark copyright was Gibson Dean. And talk a little bit about that because part of that story was the kind of being able to trademark body styles of guitars and basses, which is something we, like one of the famous ones was, was Fender Aymadas because they had the lawsuit stuff. And I guess way back when with the headstock, which is one of the things. But talk a little bit about that because a lot of people have a lot of misunderstandings about how that works and how the trademark stuff works. I really appreciate that. And just look at the headlines and you see how people misinterpret that. It's very confusing. Yeah. Yeah. So the, you brought up, so the, I think they're the progenitor of that because there was a series of cases through the years, but the progenitor of a lot of these issues was the Fender Matter that is listed as Stuart Spector at all versus Fender. It was a trademark opposition case that began in 2003, ended in 2009. That's sort of the standard, if you will, for genericism, where I represented 17 companies and our position was the Strattateli and the Peabays can't be registered, body shapes can't be registered as trademarks by Fender because everybody else is making these. That kind of public domain in a way. Certainly when we say generic, we're suggesting that the market's been built by so many different companies that it's generic now. And that was a successful action and there wasn't an appeal and we went our way from that to be able to use that case fairly often. And it leads to other things that I get involved with and some things I can talk about because they're done. That case is long over. Right. The other matter you asked me about has had quite a history and I can only comment on certain aspects because it's still ongoing. Right. Yeah. And that's a pretty famous case and that's gotten a lot of publicity. The Fender or the Dean? The Dean. Yeah. So the publicity has been interesting because people are generally confused in intellectual property, what a copyright is, what a trademark is, what a patent is. So I see headlines and the headlines will say, you know, there's a lawsuit over copyright. There's a lawsuit over a trademark and then they'll believe in same exact paragraph will say lawsuit over patents. And you're kind of going, well, yeah. Nice. Yikes. Right. Right. Head slapping moment. Okay. So clear it all up for us. I'll do my best. There's certain things I can discuss. There are certain things I can't. So the original lawsuit in 2019 was with is Armadillo is the intellectual, it shouldn't say that, that's not correct. It's the distribution company, promotion distribution for, but the Dean brand is owned by Concordia and that's the IP holding company. So Armadillo is the company that I got that was receiving under that lawsuit. And I did not represent Armadillo. There was a prior CEO, there was another law firm. The result was not particularly favorable. I'll say that. And then I got asked to handle the appeal. And while I don't do appellate work, because appellate work is that's like real lawyer stuff. That's smart people stuff. Well, you're here. You'll do it. Just fine. Anyway, go ahead. Thank you. But that's unnecessary. It did handle the appeal and the appeal is interesting in that. Our version of what the appeal would be about was that we didn't get a chance to show the genericism of certain Gibson marks. And that there had been wholesale exclusion of this evidence. And it goes right back to this sort of guitar player conversation we're having where the history of the companies and there shouldn't be sort of recreated. It is what it is. You know, things are what they are and shouldn't have your own version. So we, we appealed. I appeal, I appeared, should say, at the oral argument in the Fifth Circuit, the Fifth Circuit, because that lawsuit took place in Texas. That's a whole separate conversation. And what I did not know when I was in the process of doing this oral argument was that it was live broadcast. Oh. And then remains on YouTube forever. Interesting. And yes, I did not know that. So here I am, you know, thinking, oh, I just have to, I'm going to do the best job I can. And these are just being plain. These are nerve-wracking moments. Anybody tells you it's, you know, this is easy kind of toss away stuff is not telling you the accurate. Yeah, because there's a lot at stake with that because that's the whole guitar industry. It's not just one or two brands. It's the whole, the whole thing. It's like the oral argument back in the Fender case, you know, that is a lot riding on this. Yeah, a lot of companies could have gotten shut down from that. And their, and their businesses would have been different. So, and a lot of them are my friends, not just clients. So, but now you're in this oral argument. And for those who don't know how this works oral argument in, in, first, it's federal court, which is, you know, very serious stuff. You're not, this isn't small claims court. And you get to say, you know, hey, how you doing? This is, yeah, and you're potentially setting precedent and likely are for future cases that they're going to reference back to this case, just like the Fender case, same thing, right? Exactly. And, and, and so, by the way, if you need a, to finish your law degree, I'll help you with that last bit because you're, you're underway. But the, that, so now here you are, you appear and I don't know, I don't think people really know how the process works and that there's a podium, you don't get to wander around. It's not like TV where you, you know, you're pointing your fingers and no, sorry, you're behind a podium and the podium's got. Just presenting your, yeah, presenting your argument and that's it. And you get fired answers, you know, questions get fired. They got, it's actually by three judges, you got to have your answers ready. And it's, it's a little like stoplight. It's green go caution means you got X time left and there's red, you have to stop. And unless the judges are asking you questions and you're thinking in your head, well, if this, if this appeal is granted and it's appealed again, then we're going to be in the Supreme court and I'm trying to explain guitars now. The people that may or may not be aware of at all of what's at stake, right? So you're trying to, you're trying to present the basically flesh out the picture to them and. It's, so you're doing intellectual property conversations about practical market experience and the things that you know and cases you've handled. And you, as you can be speaking to people like you would have a conversation about bases with someone or gear sitting behind you, even in your virtual studio, but you can turn around and you know what all that is. I have to explain that. And you know, and I, that has happened before. I'll put the note to tell you about the Beastie Boys matter involving samplers and synthesizers, which I had to bring to court. It's just true. But the, this matter now is in front of people who may not know, but they know the legal basis of why I'm there, right? It's very important. Yeah, they understand trademark law and they get it. Intellectual property, right? They understand. And, you know, this, and so we were successful in getting that fully reversed and remanded, which means it went back to a second trial, which we had all the months of March or 2025. And now there's appellate issues going on from that, which is why I can't talk about it because it's ongoing. But the, the thing to understand is that sometimes it's just easier to listen to the YouTube argument and hear it yourself, draw your own conclusion, right? It's going to be there forever. And, which I did not know, as I said. So if, you know, if I'm, if I'm up there and I, and I just, you know, say something that I didn't mean to say, it's, I think my, my professors, my professors going to email me. You know, you should have thought about this argument. So, you know, and, and, and I, it's high, it's high stakes and it's affects the whole music industry for sure. Like it's a, it's a big deal. Yeah. It is. It's, and is a lot at stake and a lot of us taking all of these different things. And the industry, this, this, there's an impact you're carrying with you, as you said, that runs throughout the industry. And you, you know, there's so much going on at that. But the, the issue about that, and that went to, like I said, for a retrial. And we're, was that, was that specifically about like headstock design and body style? It was at that or was it, was it something else? It had headstocks, it had body shapes. You know, our contention was in meeting that evidence into the matter was that, you know, there are so, so many companies make Gibson-like product that you have to look at the headstock, you know, to see who makes it, which is the nature of, you know, the idea of, of a body shape, not working for certain companies. Right. My position was that it didn't work for Fender. And of course, the here comes an argument up, someone will yell and scream at me about saying, I don't think it really works for a certain company based in Nashville, on a lot of levels, because we've had, you know, decades of people making things that were very similar. Yeah. And the companies are so well known for certain things. And if, if they come out with something completely left, left field, often their, their loyal fan base doesn't accept it. And guitar. I'm sorry. But guitar players and bass players are a unique breed in that they want a certain thing. And, and bass players are much more progressive, if you will, in what we will accept, headless, lightweight, smaller bodies. We are more progressive. Guitar players could be remarkably recalcitrant to take, you know, small change. You're telly guys or less Paul guys. Right. Exactly. And, and, and so there are, there are small things that make a big difference sometimes. And, you know, sometimes that also tells you the difference between these things. But in those cases have taken a life of their own on and they, I, I gassed about them a lot. I, this is the most I've ever spoken about it because I'm reluctant to discuss it. So you've been a reporter. Right. And it's tricky because you don't, you don't want to say the wrong thing, especially with cases that are ongoing. And I'm, I'm careful. I also work with another attorney. We've got to talk about that. And I, so I, and I have a podcast with him as well. So we always, I always ask him at a time, I'm like, okay, what can we talk about? What can we not talk about? That's important. You mentioned to, you mentioned Beastie Boys and Sampling. And that's, that's another very controversial topic that's still not really settled. Can you speak a little bit about that and, and Carlos about that, that case? And the, and the oncoming role of, of, of AI, not A1 as our secretary of education kept falling it. And I should say too, we have also the AI, like you mentioned, Sona, these other companies that are coming out creating AI, music, AI bands. So that kind of gets into that same field of the sampling thing. It gets tricky. But anyway, go ahead. Yeah. So, so to sort of lay this out in terms of, so the Beastie Boys matter was really interesting. I represented the producer, the engineer, the studio, and this goes back into the late 80s. And there, the issue here was sampling and what part were these people part of sampling? Right? Cause, you know, I was able to get a dismissed against our clients. We left that courtroom and I was very, very happy because, you know, I was fairly young and doing this, but, but it was things about the music business that I would know and how it would have to explain. And, you know, federal judges are lifetime appointments. That the federal judge that we were speaking to was, you know, in his later 80s and he kept saying the word synthesizer. And the last thing you want to do is correct the federal judge. Right. And that's just the word that he had learned along the way and kind of got stuck on it. And he, and he said, and he said something really, which I'm, you know, he's gone now and he was a very brilliant man. But he did say, well, you know, synthesizers are putting string players on Broadway out of business. And I said, hmm, would you mind if tomorrow I brought you a sampler and a synthesizer with a set of headphones and showed you the difference because there's a tremendous difference here. One is a, one is a physical, you know, here, here's the sound. We're going to take it and put it into something else. The other thing is the playing and performance of something. Right. And I had to go through, it's pre-911, pre-all of that, but I did have to go to security and bring the stuff in, get the bailouts to let me do it. What are you doing? Here on the go, they go, no one does this. And I said, I know I'm always you tell me people to tell me I should be doing that. But that's so, that's so smart, though. And you educated them for future cases if they came up again, which I'm sure it did eventually. I'm sure it did, but I got a headphone. I mean, I literally told them, please put headphones on. And I played, you know, my Casio CZ-101 of the day and I, and hit the button on the sampler form. And he went, oh, oh, okay. And then what resulted from that one is he looks over at the plaintiffs and goes, well, like, you guys must be ready to dismiss this, right? And they go, okay, we're out. And I was so happy. Wow. The standard behind sampling is really fascinating because the Bismarck key case, 91 in New York, the Southern District is where the judge says, you know, thou shalt not steal is the first sentence of the decision. Sampling has been so problematic and misunderstood because there are two copyrights at stake, the copyright and the sound recording and the copyright in the underlying composition. So what is it that you're taking? And many people would say, you know, I, and they would come up with, they would try to use the word fair use, which is a defense, which is a terrible idea. And the day you're using fair use, that means you've already gotten the letter. Another very misaligned or conserved. Yeah. Because people hear that, they hear that like, well, if it's over 50, 75 years old, you can use it like, well, no, it's not exactly like that. Well, it's nothing like that. And then of course, here's the thing about sampling. They go, what? And I've heard every one of these for decades. Hey, I can take five notes. I can take four bars. I've heard, I've heard it in time. I've heard it in notes. I've heard it. None of that is true. And if someone owns a sound recording and you're lifting literally the sound recording and putting it into another sound recording, you're going to have to pay for that, right? You have to get a license to pay for that. You know, even if, even if you acknowledge that you did it, you still need to pay for it. It's not enough to say, well, I acknowledged that I did this or I'm not trying to copyright, you know, intending to fringe on Cosmopie's copyright. You still did it. It's a little like saying, it's a little like saying, I took these jewels from you. Exactly. And now they're over here and I've got them in this lovely setting. But I didn't technically steal them. I didn't because I said they're yours. Exactly. And now they're in a different place. So that you can see how that doesn't work. But so sampling had the two copyright issues, the sound recording and the underlying composition. And I would forever tell clients that we're sort of in that the world of thinking, I should use this, just either play it yourself to avoid the master use license. Some people couldn't play it. I have played bass lines from other sound recordings. And then you have the underlying composition, which is a separate permission, if you will. Right. So you've got to pay proportionate share of mechanicals and your organization as a co-writer, co-publisher, if you're going to even get that to the far. So sampling, we could be on this for a couple of hours, but to say the least, let's not do it. And let's not do it and ask for forgiveness. Let's ask for permission and let's get it done correctly. Yeah, because you could spend all this money releasing an album and doing all the promotion only to be sued. You have to give up all your funds. And as I do that, yeah, it's just not a good idea, especially if you don't understand the particulars of it. At least go talk to an attorney first before you do you want to attempt to do that. Well, what's some advice for artists and also manufacturers? I know this is a big question, but what's some advice that you could offer that along the way, some kind of bullet points? For artists, you know, one of the seminars I do at NAMM, I do with Alan Friedman, who is everybody calls the mayor of NAMM, the CPA. He handles the tax issues and I talk about income streams. And I think the education about music income streams is paramount. I mean, you just have to know live income for a merchandise income, which is about trademarks, not about copyrights, how how music publishing works, which is, yes, Byzantine and Orcane and misunderstood. And boy, do I have every day another conversation about, no, I'm sorry. That's the minute. It's very outdated. The law is girly. Very outdated. And we're not we're trying to keep up to date. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act is sort of got us there, but that's 2000. And we're just now we're in 2026. And then the artist side, you know, which includes all the master issues. And get you have to know what it is. And I've always had this thing that I explain. I've always tried to explain it this way. All I want you to do as your lawyer is for you to have and make a good living from your art. That's all I want. If you're not going to write anything and you will be a journey person, so to speak, playing bass, guitar, drums, whatever it is for your career, you're going to be attached to people who will be making more money than you. And you should understand that you can't be resentful about it. Yeah, maybe so that. Yeah, just get get past that in your life and understand you're getting hired to play weekly, daily, whatever it's going to be. And that's fine. But I prefer if I if I can help you understand that music publishing provides you with that income to make decisions that are important, like you're about to have your first or second child and your wife says, hey, can you stay home? And you say, no, honey, I've got to go out for 18 months to make enough money to pay the rent because you didn't write anything in the last several years. And not saying writing anything automatically makes you income. But if you were to be in a position where you can have passive income from your art, I'm there to help you. Others just like me are there to help you to gain knowledge of how to make sure those income streams are coming to you. I on a daily basis, I'm still talking to people now well into their 70s famous people who call out and they go, can you help me find my money? Yeah, or can you help me get my publishing? Or that's all that. Yeah, because that's the thing about being a musician. I mean, I've been a touring musician for 45 years of old. And and I've experienced all of what you just mentioned, which is one thing is you definitely got to make peace with the band leader is going to make more money. The guy, the artist that you're playing with who's been doing it for 60 years is going to be making more money than you. So make peace with that. The other thing is, is like you mentioned, in terms of royalties and mailbox money, that's as which is more commonly known, I guess, where at some point, you're not going to want to get on the tour bus. You're not going to want to get in the van and you still have to have a living. So that's where that really and also securing your rights and holding onto your rights with publishing. That's where the rubber meets the road, right? Correct. That is that's the big thing. And, you know, the from personal example, I have discussed this, you know, because I usually don't talk about myself. This is unusual that I even say these things. So I appreciate you taking the time to do it. But for me, it would be the best example I can give you is I flew more in the day in the day when I was playing, you know, when I was touring more rather than my modern era of touring, which we still flew a lot. I will probably say, well, you're really spoiled. But yeah, we did fly more that bus trip from Detroit through Calgary to Seattle and down, you know, January. Yeah. February and January, you better, A, you all better get along. Yeah. B, if someone's making more money than you and you don't start that argument somewhere, you know, at three in the morning, you wake up and realize somebody's doing better than you are. Like, you know, the classic line was drummer, you know, wakes up and says, hey, how come I'm living in my parents' basement and you've got a house and he's driving a Ferrari. Someone says, I write the songs. That's when that and they go, well, we should play my songs. And then the drummer gets the next scenes of drummers at the curb with the exact. Hey, I got a song. Yeah. And then everybody's waving goodbye. And there's that, hey, you know, hey, Ed, can you meet us over here and you'll play drums. So I try to make sure that every band is the sum of its parks and stays the sum of its parks. That's very, very difficult. But I've had intra bands since the 80s, intra band agreements, keeping the bands together. Let's work it out. You know, I know people come and go out of bands and it's going to happen, even though when everybody's in the middle of their first recording, they say, we're, you know, we're buds forever. So plan for all these things. Yeah. And have clearly, clearly established boundaries on who owns what, who is the owner, who is not the owner, who are the primary songwriters, who own the publishing. How are we making money doing this, right? And if I can carve out, you know, if I can carve out a net publisher share for a nonwriter to keep the band together, which I've done for bands in the 80s, who literally are still going because there's no I shouldn't say there's no resentment, if you will, about that. It's important. The overall thing about being a musician for a living, which is such a difficult task, it really is. It's joyful and it's wonderful and it's creative beyond all belief. Magic happens sometimes, not the bus drive, but on the stage. You know, in front of 2,500 people or 25 people, you have a moment where you look at each other and things just happen and you go, this is why I'm doing this. And we've all had that. What you don't want to have happen is when you're standing up there and going while you're doing that, you're going, why is, why is every better off than I am? Because that's what you try to avoid. On the instrument's business side, intellectual property, I've been trying, I've been having these conversations that says, 80, my first NAMM show is now going to age myself more than you, was January 84. 18. And I've, dude, as they say, dude. So I've been talking about instruments and IP since 83 and having conversations about things. You should, well, can we own that? Let's see if we can own that. You can't own everything. And some people own things that, quite frankly, as we've stated before in a euphemistic way, should know and shouldn't be trying to press others to not own. But we have an industry that is, everybody is, no one ever leaves the instrument business. They just never do, right? It's a heart and soul business. It's strings and wood and tubes and everybody's so geared into this, that's a bad pun, so geared into this in so many personal ways. I mean, I go- And it's often family businesses. It's mom and dad and the kids are working for the company. And so it's very personal when stuff happens. It's not just like some company retail thing, right? Oh, it's your living. It's your family and it's your name sometimes. Right. Well, I'm still that 16-year-old kid wandering around the NAMM show. I'm still going to go, wow, I have those moments, even if it's someone bringing something and saying, someone sued me about this and I'll talk about the instruments. But we all are of that ilk, which is why the NAMM show is so different than anything else you could ever go to. You know, I used to go to all the Frankfurt shows as well. And just different languages, same thing. The NAMM show represents people who are there because they want to be there. They are interested in the idea of making music. I don't always agree now with the AI of making music. Maybe another week we could spend on that. But the industry is replete with people who won't leave, love it, come back all the time, go to the show. We talk about gear. Did you see this? Did you see that? We are and we're never going to change. This is who we are. And the finite differences or infinite differences between all these products and things we use make it so much different and more exciting and quite frankly, more of a creative thing. I just wish sometimes we can keep it from being 135 dB all the time. Because then everybody literally, we all leave the show with our ears ringing and I wear protection these days. But it's so loud sometimes that I just have my own issues with that. But it's your meeting place where people from around the world come to talk about the music instrument business. And then you've got all the other people who are there, the artists, the producers. Some are just writers, some are there to just meet up. And there are a million reasons to go. And each one may have, everybody has their own purpose. But I like to put them all together and say it's not exclusive. But do learn the business you've decided to enter and make a living from. And please don't tell me, I just want to write songs and play. They're never going to be good enough. I will give you a hard time. Well, and I should say too, it is a big musical family, even amongst the retailers and the manufacturers, it's a big family. And sometimes families don't always get along. But you have family jealousies too, like every other family. But it is a great world and it's a privileged world that we're able to be a part of. I've been doing this now for, like you said, like almost 50 years. I'm old. And I can stay in that but you're not. Well, I wake up every day, so that's a good sign. But it's an awesome, you know, you definitely feel a brotherhood and a sisterhood in the music business and the music industry. And it's great to have people like you to explain and clarify a lot of issues that people have misconceptions. There's a lot of amateur attorneys in the music world. And it's nice to speak with somebody like you that can clear the air on a lot of topics. And like you mentioned, we could even, I mean, the AI thing is maybe something we'll even revisit because that's a whole nother conversation that's really catching fire right now. Ron, tell people how they can contact you if they want to reach out. So I'm at Fox Rothschild as the law firm and we are quite large. Really easy to find me on the web. As I have said, I'm pretty terrible about, you know, self-promotion. I find it sounds like self-aggrandizement. It's not my style. But people will want to know something and I'm there to tell them. You can contact me through the Fox Rothschild website, which is foxrothschild.com. It's a B-I-E-N-S-T-O-C-K. If you Google me, I am really easy to find. But email me here with questions. I'm happy to talk to anybody, much to my assistants, Har and Shagrin, that I will take calls and emails from people and I'll have five minutes to go before a huge meeting, you know, probably with, you know, 20 attorneys and she'll go, you're trying to squeeze that in. I say, look, they have a problem. Let me go out. I have stayed late for decades. Also, to everybody's expectations of me going, how can we not have rehearsal? Where they're to help people, that's what the point is. And, you know, easy, I'm easy to find. And I tend to think I'm approachable. People may think, you know, from, you know, all the IP litigation, I am some, like, you know, hydro-multi-headed, you know, animal living on the river sticks and I'm about to eat. You're Oz, hiding behind the curtain. Yeah, that's not how it is. Yeah, I think, you know, what I love about you is you have a passion for it and it comes through, which is, you know, that's the thing. Like, it's not just a business for us musicians and you've managed to create a really unique situation with being an entertainment attorney, but also a passionate musician. And I appreciate that. I think it's great for people in the general public to hear that, that it's not just a business for you. It's actually a passion. It's been a lifelong passion, which is really exciting to hear. Well, I appreciate that. And I did say in, to someone recently, because they asked me, you know, what are you going to talk about it? Nam, I said, I got two AI panels, and I'm doing this music instrument, music income stream presentation. And someone said, what's cool job? And I said, it's never been a job. It's not a job. I love this. It's not a job. And I think that's the difference for you, for me, and everybody there. It's not a job. We love this. And I think that's why it's a heart and soul passionate business about things. And I think it comes through with everybody when you're there. I really do. But I appreciate your kind words. That's very nice of you. Yeah. And it's definitely, it's very heartfelt for sure. Ron, thank you so much for joining me. I know you're a very busy man, and it's not easy to get a hold of you, because I know you people are always coming at you for interviews and coming at you for, for topics. But I definitely appreciate your passion. I appreciate clearing, you're giving your great information, clearing up a lot of stuff that we've all had questions about. And hopefully, we'll be able to revisit the AI topic, because that definitely is a very important issue right now. Thank you so much for joining me and have an awesome day. I will put all your, your contact information and social media stuff on the podcast description. This will be out on Apple Podcast, IR Radio, Spotify, all the usual outlets. So thank you so much. Have a great day, Ron. Thanks, Darrell. Thank you so much. What a pleasure. Awesome. Great, great talk. Thanks, Ron. 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