We're All Spiraling

Hello, and welcome back to Hulu's Tell Me Lies official podcast. I'm your host, Stasi Schroeder, and each week I'll be analyzing episodes getting behind the scenes stories and digging into all the drama with the cast and crew of season three of Tell Me Lies, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. And on this episode, I'm freaking out because Jackson White and Spencer Houser here to talk about all things Stephen and Riggly will talk about how the relationship between their characters has evolved and what season three has in store for two of Tell Me Lies leading men. I'll also chat with the show's composer, Jay Wadley, about how he creates the show's signature sound, but before we get into all that, here is a recap of this week's episode. So Brie goes out of her way to befriend Amanda. The freshman girl she saw leaving all of her's office last episode. Meanwhile, Evan puts it together that Oliver is the older married man Brie was sleeping with and tries to confront him, but somehow ends up asking him for a relationship advice. I mean, weird. Stephen continues to crash out towards Lucy and threatens to tell Brie about her and Evan. Brie opens up to Lucy about everything she's reeling from last semester and Lucy realizes what she did. And just how close Brie could be to finding out and has a panic attack. So to calm her anxiety, Pippa calls Alex, the drug dealer who sold them that MDMA and Brie finally realizes how she knows him when he comes over to sell them Xanax. Lucy calls Stephen out for punishing her, but he turns it around and makes it all about him, I mean, always. And asks Lucy to choose between him and Brie. Lucy chooses Brie and they're done. They mean for now. And things heat up between Diana and Pippa. And they finally kiss. This is your latest idea. It's unique. It's game-changing. It's huge. But you can go even bigger with AI-powered PDF spaces in Accravat Studio, turning your files and links into actionable insights and content. Plus, share projects and collaborate seamlessly while keeping everything private and secure. So your excellent idea stays yours. Do that with Accravat. Learn more and try it out on Adobe.com. Stasi, can I go ahead and apologize? I thought I was supposed to do the intro. I actually want to apologize about that. Jackson, where are you seeing us, bro? This feels real. So I'm an Oklahoma. No, no, I know that. But where are you? Where are you? Like, where am I looking at you right now? Oh, no, absolutely not. This is insane. Okay. I'm going to start asking some questions. We're going to keep this fun. All right. Mm-hmm. So this episode, can I look at Stasi? I don't really know where we're supposed to look. This is the most fucked up weird thing I've ever done. Okay? Let's just do logistics for like the next like 30 minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In this episode, God, Steven, you're so diabolical. It starts with the karaoke. And you leave Lucy to karaoke by herself. I want to know, what is your go-to karaoke song? I did. I just thought of one. It was what's some. It's Michael Jackson, right? Yeah. Didn't she do the Michael Jackson song? No, Brandon did. Remember, Brandon, did Brandon do Man in the Mirror? I think Brandon did. I think Brandon did something like that. Spencer did. Spencer got up and did Nickelback. He did photograph. Yeah. Oh, you would. It was perfect. It was a big one. It was perfect. It was perfect. A little thing about me, I don't karaoke because I have a giant stick up my ass and I'm scared of embarrassing myself, so I like to sit and watch people and judge. Oh, but I would really give anything. In fact, I'd pay, I say, I'd pay $20,000 to go with you guys as a group, the whole of you, and watch you guys karaoke. Really that we can do it. We've done it before, and we couldn't even manage to get you here today. We've done it before. All right. And I don't know who should probably answer this, but let's just we'll feel it out. How do you guys think Stephen and Riggley's relationship has changed by this point in the series? Right now we're at episode two in season three. Who wants to take the lead on that one? Well, we used to be really good buddies. I don't want to give anything away, but I think Riggley's getting hip to the tricks, right? Spencer? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the main thing. Hip to the tricks is a good way to put it and start to become a little bit. I've always wondered, like, I've asked everybody this every year. I'm like, why are they friends with this guy? Oh, yeah, no shit. I try and inject humor into it, and then it's like, this isn't funny. This is not funny. He's horrible. So I've asked that question a lot. And then, and so now it's finally catching up to him and Riggley is growing and Stephen staying in the same place. You know what? I think it's like a, it's kind of a normal thing in your early 20s to have that friend that you just make excuses for because you just, you've been friends with them for enough years, even though, you know, it's only a few years for you guys, enough years towards like, well, that's just how he is. Well, that's just how he is. And you accept it. And then at some point you wake up and you're like, okay, maybe not. I want to cut you off, but you go to the wedding. So no one really totally wises up to you. I don't know how he made it to that wedding. I don't know. I'm so confused. I'm like, who, what addressed did they send that invitation to? That's insane. So in this episode, and this is for you, Jackson, Stephen makes Lucy choose between him and Bri. And she chooses Bri. Did you see that coming when you were reading the scripts? What was your reaction to that? Good, good, good growth. Good for her. He's bad, he's bad, bad news. I was shocked watching it because Lucy has never chosen anyone over you. I feel like we've all had that experience where you get, you have jealousy of something that does not directly interfere with your relationship, but your brain decides to make you believe that it's a threat. I've had those experiences where you're like, it's not logical. His is taken to the 10th degree and it's and it becomes super toxic. That feeling is real of like, oh, this relationship is so precious to me and there's outside factors that are interfering and I got to try and protect it even though you don't. Everything's okay. That's like the more human version of what it would be. And then Stephen's like a sociopath, so he doesn't, he doesn't, you know, I don't know. He's just fucking possessive and he's. Do you think any part of him is like proud of her in that moment? Of course he incapable of actually even feeling pride in somebody else. Maybe he's impressed. Maybe he's impressed. Yeah. Maybe he's like, you know what I'm saying? Maybe he's like, cool. All right. Good chest move. Nice. Yeah. Cause I don't, he doesn't go deep like that. And he's like, thanks for giving me another reason to spiral hate you and get you back because I was bored for a second. I want to know how you guys spend your downtime on set. What are you guys doing together? Are you all this tight knit group of friends that just like, do you go into your separate green rooms? What are you all doing? No, we are, we're, we're all pretty tight knit. We looked out in that way. Yeah. I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of casts that don't get along. So I've heard and we're all really good friends. Yeah. Which has been great because those are long days. And so it makes it, I mean, who you work with makes the job for the most part. So you guys hang out. That's what you do on set. We do, we hang out outside a set too and a lot. You know, I actually, I never feel FOMO like ever in my life. Like it's like a weird thing. I feel JOMO joy of missing out. But seeing how much y'all like each other and being such a big fan, I feel FOMO that I'm not part of this friend group. Like I kind of feel like I should be there. Sure. Is that weird? Come along. Do you guys, when they see you out in public like never? I've never, okay. Never. Now having met everyone, I, I've loved talking with everyone that that's what's making me feel like I'm a part of this too, you guys and I'm not. It's dilulu energy. No, of course you are. This is this is genuinely this is this show brings so much joy to people. They love the community of it. Even if it's horrible and toxic, it's like those are your favorite shows. You want your, you think you're one of the group. I did, the first show I did that was like Friday night lights. I thought I was on a football team. Yeah, to. Yeah. You just, I was walking around talking like them. It's like, it's the best. TV has that power, especially when you have, you know, it's soulful, grounded ensemble. That's what we have. Like everyone's kind of like real and. That's something I love about this cast is everyone brings it. Yeah, everyone, everyone brings it. And that doesn't know that doesn't always happen unfortunately, but every day everyone tries to make it worth watching. And we have a great crew as well. And so it's just, it's nice to, it's nice to show up to work and have everyone care. I love to hear that. Yeah. What was the most fun scene you two have shot together? In all, in all the three seasons? Yeah. Oh, I like that pool. When we were all jumping in and you got the bowling ball, we're doing baby powder cocaine together. Yeah, B12, I think. And you're having sex with a pillow. Yeah, that was more fun for everyone else. Yeah, that was, yeah, right. Okay. No, I don't know, be in, be in that naked onset. There's a lot more people behind the camera than you'd think. Who is the biggest gossip onset? You are going to be like, no, why? I think that's part of why I love this set, too. And it goes back to what we were talking about. There's not a ton of gossip for all the negativity in the. In the things that the characters do on, on, you think the show? Yeah, well, I feel, well, I made, I made, I made, I'm pretty Gabby. Oh, Gabby. He nominated, Stephen nominated himself. That's so Stephen. I guess saying, yeah. It's like we need to, responsibility for the, the letter that we see. I feel like everyone's like, did you hear, I feel like everyone's a little, no, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's just maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, no one brings it to me. I don't know, but I, maybe that won't leave you isolation. Maybe it's me, maybe that won't really matter with that video. God speak about me. Yeah. You don't indulge. Yeah, well, I won't speak on that. That's true. When it comes to gossip, I feel like if you indulge, people go, oh, and unload. And if you don't, it's kind of like, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to like, spend your thing. Spencer is the most set in his way and his demeanor and his, this is a good thing. I'm not, you're not stubborn. You're not, you're generous, but you are the most sure of your personhood, I would say. Oh, thank you. That sounds like a good thing. What a really nice couple. And here's an example. That outfit he's wearing, he wears it every day. It's true. Those are North Face shoes that he wears every day. He has two pairs of them. One of them's green and one of them's brown. And he'll alternate. I don't like to wear shoes. I couldn't just pull the car over and run up a mountain. You know what I mean? Yeah, why would I? No, I feel the same way. For red carpets when they put your dress shoes, I'm like, why would anyone wear these? You can't do anything in these shoes. Yeah, if you can't run up a mountain, what the fuck is the point? It's practical. He has a shirt jacket. That's a jacket. And he has three jackets that he hangs by the door. And he says, mm, I'm going to do blue today. That's true. Do you guys have a group chat, like a cast group chat? Yeah, we really got a few. There's like a few of us. There's a few. Certain people not in it. Because, and that, you know, what I mean is like, you know, someone will have a birthday. And then it'll be like everyone but that birthday person. Yeah, we're like, you know, it's like, if you're all like, hey, we're going to go, oh, we're going to go to a movie or something. And then someone's like, I can't make it. We're not going to keep annoying them. Right. So you make a new chat full of everyone but that person. And then you forget because you just click on the last one. And then that person ends up being left out because of the most recent group chat. And then do they get their feelings hurt or do they understand how it goes? Everyone's pretty positive. There's no like, there's no weaklings. I have, I have, I get my feelings hurt. Like, do you guys, aren't you guys throwing balls into a ping pong thing later? Dude, I'm jealous. Oh, that's right. You can't make it. I was born. Well, you just weren't in the chat. What do you think was the most cast bonding moment that you guys have had on set? Anytime we're in a big party thing, it's great because we're all in one room and we're getting food together and we're like fucking around playing cards. And we're born. We're not like, what is there like a, because the, because the lake house was pretty close to the end of season one. What was there like a moment, Jackson, that you remember from like the very beginning when everyone started clicking and I can't remember. We got like a, we got like a random party bus one night. Remember that? Oh, yeah. And it was kind of like when the adrenaline was still going and we're like, TV. And then we got, and then we got a party bus. Oh, yeah. Yeah, everyone had such a good time. I hated that night so much. You do what I wanted. Why did you hate it? I don't like that stuff. It reminds me of when I was like the kid who was like afraid to dance at the bar mitzvah. Oh, yeah. I hate this. There was a strip of pulling out. Oh, yeah. I don't like, it's so loud. I agree with you. I don't like to, like, it's overstimulating. I don't drink, but we're neither of us drink. And like whenever you go to bars and everyone's just drunkenly yelling and you can't hear them. Yeah. And the music's really loud. Yeah, I'm with you. Especially like, that's our thing, dude. That's brought us together because we're the guys standing there like, you should probably go home, right? Yeah, we're like water. And then we'll end up, you know, shacking up. That's true. And we play a ton of video games together. Yeah. We play a lot of dark songs. Should we talk about, should we talk about game station? Just toss it. Do you want to know about video games? I want to know about video games. This is the best thing we have ever done. We put, I'm like, you know, nowadays you're on a screen all the time and you're not with people. And it's kind of lonely. So we were like, well, rather than Xbox Live it, let's put two big screen TVs in one room. And we'll play Dark Souls. Yeah. Dark Souls and we can, and we can like, online, warp into each other's games. But I mean, we're right there with each other. And we're on the couch together for like a long time. The illusion is shattering, isn't it, Stasi? A long time. We are not toxic men. You think we are? I don't know. I've watched, it's cool. It's cool. It's cool. It's cool. It's cool. It's cool. And then we did things for fun. We would do for fun. Kayah. Well, yeah, we, I'm very outdoorsy. So we do a lot of outdoor stuff. But, but the, we would, we hooked up the original Halo. Oh, yeah. In between takes, because that made us feel like we were in college in 2008. Yeah. That was, that was, that was it. Play football. It was like, oh, yeah, put you in college, like nostalgia stuff. We were just playing. Yeah, we all attempted to play football. It's so cute of you guys. It's like, you know, reworking video games, trying out football, going kayaking, drinking water, leaving the party bus early. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's, that's a theme. We got, we sound. I think it sounds great. I think it sounds great too. Actually, I'm going to be honest with you. I'm judging it. I'm judging it, but I love it. And the only reason I'm judging is because, yeah. Like, this is all interesting. As a fan, we should make up stories to what people want to hear. No, this is interesting. Fans want the truth. Fans can see through bullshit. Like, viewers are smart. They can tell when someone's lying in an interview. That's true. They can tell when someone's pretending to be something that they're not. You guys are being yourselves, and it's fascinating for me. Okay? Good. You have, this is what you do. I mean, like my girlfriend is like, you're her hero. And so how do you do it? You guys have to disappear the cameras more than we have to disappear the cameras. You have to, you have to, let's get you around. I want to hear that. No, no, I'm serious. Because this is the best acting. This is the best naturalism you can watch. It's like, it's the only thing I watch now is reality. Reality TV. Yes, because, it's if you want real, that's real. And how do you guys, do you get camera conscious? You should watch, tell me a lot. No, I don't. I think because I have done it for most of my life. Like I started doing reality TV when I was 16 years old. It's all I know how to do. Well, what show is that? Amazing race. Don't go back and watch it. Amazing race. Really? Don't go back and watch it. I should never have said it. Don't put it in your, and don't use it against me later. Does that, um, each of us on the world, I was like, I want to be goth teenager. Were you really? I was one of me. I would never, I would never, I would never guess that. But I love to hear that. Everyone goes through weird phases in their lives. Yeah. What is he writing down? I'm looking it up. No. No. Oh my god. Is this your family? No, my god. Is your family, your family was on amazing race? Why did I even, that's so sweet. Was it like a bonding experience? Or were you all like, get me out of here? What do you guys do? Is it like, is it like fear factor? Did you do it? Did you raise it? Did I say anything like I dug my own hole? Was it like a foot rate? No, this is great. It really had to race around. I went through an ugly phase. Seven to Marco, Riggly. What are you, what are you talking about? You're, you're first of all, I can't see it. I can't see it. I can't see it. You guys are children, your children, and what, and this is your family, and you've backpacks on and you're in, you're in front of a landscape. Can you send me that? Can you send me that real quick? Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. I wanted like, I'm cool. I swear. No, you really did race around, you race around the world. You race around the world? My dad put me in this competition when I was 16, and then because of that, I was introduced into reality TV. And then all these reality things just fell in my lap. It's like reality TV calls to, I can't escape it. It's a part of who I am. And you, this, you with the black hair? Yes. Okay, no, that, that, that makes sense. So like if you're that early, it's like, you look very different. You didn't get the ugly face now, but you look, but you look very different. It kids who start young, that difference, that's a different field, but they have, they have something they're comfortable with. That's very sweet. They can snap into it a lot quicker. It's, it, you just live, you just exist while cameras are around you. You close to your brothers. I hope that there's editors that can make the best of it afterward. Did, did bring your family close? No, she's not my stepmom anymore. Oh, damn. Well, let's go to the know. I also have a few stepmoms. It's good to learn. You have, how many? We could go toe to toe. I had four. I've had three, I've had three stepmoms. Do you think that that makes you, this is just a personal question? Do you think that because you've been through so many stepparents, that is going to make you such a committed person when you're in a relationship because I feel like that's what it did to me. Oh, yeah, my parents marriage was, it didn't exist when I was growing up. They split up when I was young. So I have a concept of, of exactly what you're saying. Like it's, it's higher stakes to stay together for me. It's like a different, it's a different thing. Yeah. Have do you have any stepparents? No, my parents are happily married. They met when they were 16. You know what, they've been dating since they were 16. They've been dating since they were 16. I've been told that. Yes, you give off happily married parents since they were 16. That's lucky. Oh, it's amazing, it's amazing. That's really nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have any brothers or sisters? Yeah, I got two older brothers. That makes sense. Yeah. Jackson, do you have any siblings? Yeah, I have two sisters. Younger older. I'm the middle. So I have an older sister and a younger half sister. Are they, after why? Because I know they watched the show. They have to watch the show. Are they, what do they say to you? My sister's an actor and my mom's an actor and it's all very, it's not, it doesn't cut deep. It's more just like, hey, good job on your thing. If they check in, great job with your, with your job. My, and my little sister is not allowed to watch this. How old is she? She's in college. And she's not allowed to watch it. She doesn't watch our, you know, anything the family does. But I did go to her college. I went to visitor at, at her college and, and some, you know, you can notice that on college campuses, people watch this on college campuses. Yeah. So you see people and, you know, on those and they like the show. What do people come up to you in Sadio? Oh, mine's the worst. Yeah. I don't know about you, Spencer, but I get, No, mine's fine. I'm sure yours is not. Well, I don't want to say the worst. I don't want to say the worst. That's actually, you can, you can cut that out. No, I would imagine it's the worst. And the, the truth is, I've never met an in polite fan. I've never met somebody who is intrusive, but it is a lot of like, oh my God, I hate you. And you're like, I know. Yeah. I'm so sorry. And, and come on, give me a hug. But I get it. It's great. That's a good thing. That means we're doing our, our jobs. Yeah, fans are, the fans are really great. Yeah, they're great. Do you ever worry that because you are so incredibly gifted and talented at playing psychopaths, that that is all anyone is ever going to want to cast you as? No, no, no. Of course, Stasi. Of course. I mean, I get chills. I just got to say that, okay? Like, it feels like Steven is saying, of course, Stasi. Like, but I know. You're, you're just so good. And I mean this as a compliment, because you're so good at it that like, if I'm a casting director, I'm casting you for every fucking villain in every fucking movie. No, thank you, thank you. I don't, I don't mean to laugh. I think what I, it's, that is the insecurity of, doing something that becomes popular is, okay. Now I'm gonna be this, as a, now this is what it's gonna be. Yeah, but it's just insecurity. But it's just insecurity though, because I mean, you're off doing a completely different thing right now, you know? Yes. Yeah, I don't think it's, I don't think it's something. Wait, shit, did I just add to that insecurity by asking that question? No, no, no, no. We're all sitting here in a bunch of self-doubt right now. No, no, no, no. If you're, if you're sitting at home and you're not working and you're sitting at home and this show comes out and you're like, and you're talking about it and you start feeling like, this is who I am now, then you totally get in your head. But yeah, as soon as you come back and you start reading something else and you're working on something else or you're doing an audition or you come out of it because you're like, oh yeah, I have an eclectic instrument that we all do and so you can, we can be people. And what, what, what makes this show work is that everyone's just trying to be people. We're not trying to go in there and be cookie cutters and say these things and I think that's why this show, it grounds itself. I think it's, I think it's special that way. Oh, man. Oh. Just one more question. Okay. That was a great answer though. It really was. Okay. Yeah. What would surprise people about your in real life friendship or what was the hardest scene to shoot? And I'm just gonna let you guys choose where you wanna go with that. The hardest scene to shoot was for me, I think you were fine, but for me, the, the, the sauna scene in season one, I don't really know what was happening but we were having a lot of trouble. Oh, I do remember this one. And then, and then great, just really bad timing. We were having a lot of trouble and it was like a frustrating day and, Oh yeah. Grace and Sonia, God in towels in came in as like a joke and it just did. Like they were coming into the sauna. And it was just a bad, it was just bad timing and we were like, can you, can you leave? And it just like fell flat, it was bad. It was on me. I was just, it was just frustrating. I remember that. That was your hardest. Yeah, I remember that was the thing. I think it was just something. I love that scene though. Yeah, that's one of my favorite scenes. I'm happy with the scene. It's very, I love those scenes that are like, we're gonna say normal lines, but there is just layers of dirt underneath it. Do you have one? They're all hard, man. I gotta go in there and try and make people feel bad. It's not, I don't. It's exhausting, dude. Jack, Jackson's one of my really close friends, but I also just love working with you because you do it so great and she's so fun working with you because your eyes are just, it's just always keeping me on my toes. And so when I see in the schedule that we have a scene coming up, I'm like, oh, this is gonna be a day that's like just like playing ping pong a little bit. Me too. Thanks, dude. Me too. I love when we get to do something because it's easy, you know? Yeah. I am so here for this bromance right now. This is so sweet. It's so... There's some moments, Fuzzy. Oh my God. Okay. I have been told to wrap it up and that makes me really sad. This was so fucking fun for me. When we're back, tell me Lies composer, Jay Wadley talks about the show's signature soundtrack. Isn't this podcast a treat for the ears? Speaking of, R&ID's free online here in check gives your ears the TLC they deserve. All you need is three minutes, your phone and some headphones. It's quick, easy and gives you your results straight away. So next time you take a break, visit r&id.org slash check and do something for you. Idle money lies in your current account picking crumbs out of its belly button, wondering, should I eat them? But when you start investing with Monzo, your money's always busy. It turns on regular investments, invests your spare change and tops up your stocks and shares, I say. It even helps you make sense of risk and return. Monzo, the bank that gets your money moving. You could get back less than you invest. Monzo, current account required, UK resident, 18 plus, decent C's apply. Okay, so this week's episode, Jay, starts at a karaoke bar. What is your karaoke song, like your go-to karaoke song? Do you have multiple? I came from music theater background, so there was a lot of music theater in that. But as of late, it's actually been maybe a little bit more appropriate to this, the killers. Oh, there you go. Everyone loves the killers. The killers, you know? Like it's an easy one. When did you graduate high school? Oh, that's gone, date me. 2001. Okay, I'm 2006. So like the killers were huge for me in high school. Yeah. So when I hear a little bit of the killers on, tell me lies, I'm like, oh, here we are. Here we are again. They should have the killers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, killers. Yeah, we did a cover for it. That was, I think it's like, a whistle. Yes. Can you tell us how that narrows Barclay and the killers cover song, how that came together for season two? Yeah, well, Megan had the idea to do those covers initially. You know, she has like very clear ideas on what she, what types of music she wants to use, what things she wants to call back to, and very clear associations with that. So she had the ideas to kind of dive into those songs, and then Kat and I, so Kat would kind of do an initial pass with her vocal interpretation, with a very pair down like piano vocal type of arrangement, and then I would strip the instrumentation back and then kind of reimagine it in the sound of the show. So it was, and then there were lots of like back and forth on how we would deal with pacing, and then how it worked for a scene, and then we would rework it for the actual release of the album. So it was a cool back and forth. I mean, her voice is incredible. It's like she's a brilliance singer, and she's got so much character. And so yeah, it was just fun to kind of dive into that and try to bring those songs and kind of turn them on their head, you know, because the narrows barkly crazy is a much more like lively song, and so how do you kind of subvert that and then make it into something that's dark and kind of brooding and a little bit more reflective of like Lucy's inner dialogues? Yeah, you know, that's really fun. Okay, so tell us about your approaches might be broad, okay, to creating the score for the show. Like do certain characters have different, like certain sounds when you're thinking about it? Yeah, definitely. And I would say that was even like that was most true in season one, when we were establishing characters and establishing their themes and their sounds, they were a little bit more like specific to a character in a certain situation, like when Stephen would like turn on his manipulation sort of, you know, a faucet, if you will, then we would kind of go toward that guitar driven theme for him. And then, you know, we had that sort of like, I think the chord that people now say is like a sort of toxic trigger for them when they hear it in the organ, the sort of like, you know, little pulsing organ, but, you know, that is sort of the tension between Lucy and Stephen. And then, you know, in season one, Riggly's theme is one of one that's like near and dear to me, it's more piano driven sort of intimate, reflective piece that kind of, you know, charts his journey through the loss of his brother. And then it kind of evolves over the various seasons and those themes start to kind of blend into one another as like the characters are kind of going through their own struggles. So, you know, you start seeing some of the manipulation themes transition into a different character, which is kind of cool. That's now I'm going to have to watch it all back fine. Twist my arm. I'll do a rewatch. Because now I want to just watch it and just pay attention to the score. Like, that's so interesting. Well, then how do you use the pieces of songs from like, okay, around like 2008, 2009, combined with your original score to create the world of Tell Me Live? You know, I don't really, in the score, I'm not trying to necessarily chart the, like the past versus like, you know, the now, if you will. The song choices that they use in music supervision, they are trying to be a little bit more time specific or year specific to those things. And then my score is supposed to be able to kind of seamlessly blend between the licensed music that would be specific to that time period, you know, and just kind of like be able to maneuver in and out of those things. So, when thinking about the sound, I wanted to create something that was reminiscent of some things that you might have heard between, you know, the 2000s and the 20 teens, if you will. So, like guitars that you might have heard, like guitar sounds that you might have heard in the XX, and like chords that you might have heard through, like, Radiohead or something like that. And then mixed in with like vocal chops that maybe a little bit more modern and like now that you would hear in like hip hop or electronic music. And so the fusion of those various sounds kind of creates something that's familiar, but also fresh. So, yeah. That's like scientific. Do you know what I mean? That's art meets science. As your approach changed, like, with season three, and how you do everything for season three? I think part of it is kind of staying true to the character's tonality, but it's more about letting it open up. And I think the things that have surprised me about the show and the score and how it's worked in the series is like as we go forward and they're doing edits, they're using my score from the previous season to like, you know, kind of put in their like placeholder. Oh, play, which is okay. Yeah. And so then I watch it with that, and I'm always like pleasantly surprised. It like makes me feel good because it's like, all right, this is already working in a way that I wouldn't have necessarily anticipated. And I might not have put that there. But now I can rework that and kind of find a new language for that character. Wait, because I was going to ask you, basic bitches everywhere want to know. Yeah. Okay, we've all seen the holiday, all right? Yeah. And so the way I imagine this works is that you were shown the episodes and you were there creating the score as you were watching it. Yeah, that's that's pretty much how it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I essentially as they're editing the stuff together, I'll get like rough edits and early edits. And I would say I come in now later in the episode that I did in first season. I was working to rougher edits. But now that what's called locked is once the edit is finished is mostly when I come in now. And I watch the whole episode down and talk with Megan and the editor and everyone on the team and talk about what music is doing where it goes in, where it goes out, what it's trying to say. But character relates to what their mentality is and we really talk about how we track those themes across the episode or across the season and kind of chart out the way we're going to navigate that. Do you want to give us a little little karaoke taste of it? Oh my gosh. On the spot. No, like I would hate if somebody did that to me. Yeah, well, I, you know, I will say I'm not, I don't love karaoke and it's partially because, you know, growing up as a theater kid and a music theater kid in particular, you're constantly singing in front of people. And then when you go and you want to like hang out and have fun and you're around a bunch of music theater kids, everyone's trying to want up each other. So it's, it becomes more of a competition than an actual like fun enjoyment. I feel you because I was a musical theater to come to. And I have always had a sneaky suspicion that that's why I don't like it. Because I can like maybe carry a tune if I'm doing like theater singing. Sure. But I'm not a good singer. Yeah. And I don't want to get up there and compete with people who are trying to like one up each other and like they're actually good at singing. Yeah. And so that's why, yeah, you'll catch me in the chair judging. I'll have a, I'll have a drink and I'll hang out and I'll be very happy doing that. Love it. So you went to Yale School of Music. I did. I did. Do you think Steven has a chance of becoming a Yaeli? Does that what they call them Yaelis? Yaelis, yeah. Yeah. Did not know that. You know, they see the type of student they're looking for. I don't think ideally. No. Yeah. I think hopefully someone with a little bit better character. Yeah. Yeah. You would think. But like, you know, in order to go to those top schools and in law, you got to be a little, you got to play dirty a little. You might be a Yaeli. We'll find out. I guess. Anyway, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. That's all for this week. Thank you so much to Jackson and Spencer for unpacking the boy drama on the show and to Jay for taking us behind the music of Tell Me Lies. But most of all, thank all of you guys for joining us. If you haven't already, don't forget to share, follow and subscribe. And stay tuned for next week's episode of the Tell Me Lies official podcast. Now available wherever you like to listen. Watch and listen to Tell Me Lies official podcast available on Hulu and wherever you get your podcasts. And don't miss Tell Me Lies. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.