Will my farm be here in 20 years?

Hello, welcome to Farmgate. I'm Finlo Costain, the editor of 8.9.com last month, the government put out an intelligence chief security assessment of global biodiversity loss, stating that every critical ecosystem is on a pathway to collapse and that cascading risks of ecosystem degradation are likely to include geopolitical instability, economic insecurity, conflict, migration and increased interstate competition for resources. So the question of whether or not our farms will exist in 20 years is not simply academic. The question is, can our farm systems survive a breakdown in global supply chains, for example, for fertilizers, pesticides, data, machine parts and medicines? Do we need to change our stocking rates, our breeds cropping and soil health? How can we ensure that solar energy and nutrients are captured in our land? And how can we convert our fields into soil sponges that hold water in the floods of winter and release it in the droughts of summer? Well, I'm joined by a fantastic panel of farmers and rural professionals. Dan Gammon is a new entrant organic dairy farmer from Oakvale Farms Limited. Hugh Morrison is a tenant farmer producing cereals, sheep and beef both at Stonehenge and on the far side of Amesbury. Ollie Blackburn is a farm manager at the Dillington Estate in South Somerset. Helen Rogers is a vet and a director of the Friarsmoor Livestock Health Practice. And Greg Ridout is a partner and the head of agricultural auctions at Simmons and Sampson. Estate agents, auctioneers and surveyors.

0:05

Damn.

1:33

We've got to get round lots of people, find out who you are. Could you start us off, tell us a bit about yourself and your farm and just tell us what resilience means from your perspective.

1:33

So I'm Dan Gammon. I'm in a share farming arrangement with my wife Holly down near Blandford. Forum. We're on the Bryanston Estate. We've got about 1600 acres in total. We run two dairies, both organic grass based systems. One calving in the spring just started now and one calving in the autumn. We're milking about 750 cows across the two we rear all our own replacements and up to 500 beef calves that go off into the beef chain. We come from a sort of an animal health background. Both my wife and I studied as vets. We've been in the dairy industry now for going on 10 years and been here for seven. Resilience for me really means, I think we can't get away from the fact that financial resilience is probably the most important thing. So having a farming system that is financially robust, cap of Weathering poor prices for our product and able to reinvest and take opportunities when the economics are right. I think having a simple system is resilient because there is a lack of skilled labor available for us and it's a labor intensive industry we're in. So having a simple system allows us to bring people in that don't necessarily have experience. And also I think being able. There are lots of variables within agriculture that we can't control, but having some control over the variables that we can have an impact within our business is really important. So for example, feed, I can't control the weather, but by having a system on farm where we can produce 84% of the feed that we, that we feed our cows to produce milk and 85% of the protein that they require for that, which is where we're at the last year's figures that I've looked through, I think that gives us a lot of control over the things that we can do. Just finally, I think increasingly as we go on as farmers, we're going to have it. We have a duty of care for looking after the environment. So a farming model that is nature friendly, that has a positive impact on the land that we are custodians of. I think again, that's a feature of resilience for me.

1:43

Fantastic. Thanks so much for that. Ollie, tell us about the Dillington estate and how you've improved farm resilience since you became the farm manager.

4:03

Yes, so I'm lucky enough to work

4:10

for the Cameron family.

4:12

We're looking after about 800 hectares. I'd say we're probably what I'd describe as a modern diversified agricultural business in terms of the farming and what we're doing. We've seen a level of volatility and so four or five years ago we had the opportunity to have a bit of a change direction, come out of potato production. And that gives the opportunity to really focus on the future as we could see it. And part of that was entering into a mid tier scheme. When we look at resilience to be resilient, we've got to be financially viable and we've tried to build a system now here at Dillington that, you know, isn't so dependent on external inputs. We've tried to reduce our fertilizer usage and quite successfully done that. But at the same time we need to be fairly high output. We run a 800 hectare farming system. We've got a 350 cow robotic house, dairy herd and we've got quite a lot of arable work going on around it. And we've tried to look at what we do, improve our rotation and grow more of what we can do to supplement our house dairy system. But it's ongoing work and every season is different. And when you think you found the blueprint, you get thrown a curveball. And I think as farmers, and something certainly we try to do is to adapt and learn from our mistakes and keep being inventive with where we can, we can move forward with stuff.

4:13

Thanks for that, Ollie. I'm just wondering because you mentioned spuds at the beginning, what was it about that system that was, was unresilient?

5:32

You know, so spuds have been part of the estate's long term history, but they're quite demanding on the land. We actually exited potato production not because we had lost interest in it or anything else, or it wasn't financially viable. Well, it did become financially unviable, but because of the way our rotation had shifted and with that sort of emphasis on trying to do things a little bit differently. Direct drilling, a lot of min till we actually developed a wire worm issue. So as part of the work we were doing as potato producers, we were looking to reduce inputs, go on this journey towards net zero potato production. What we stumbled up against is no matter how, you know, how low input you try to be, the minute you've got a hole in a potato, you can't sell it. We got to a point where, you know, the last year that we were doing it, we probably dumped or put into an ad plant 1500 tons of potatoes and we, and we had to make a strategic decision as to, as to where we took the business forward and how we did it. And the system we came up with. Now it doesn't have those peaks and those real highs of a potato production system, but we've got this resilience and this continuity through our performance and hopefully therefore our financial stability.

5:39

I'm just going to stick on this for a moment because we won't come back to this particular issue, I don't think in this program. But it sounds to me like there's nothing wrong with that potato once it's got the hole in it. It's just that retailers won't buy it and the customer won't buy it. They don't value it. So is that about, in terms of you resilience going forward in the spud game? Is that about educating consumers to a greater extent about what's actually edible and what isn't?

6:48

Yeah, I think so. We've seen it, haven't we? There was the whole wonky veg campaign and all these different things sort of going on. Yeah, you get that hole in it and it goes deeper or it goes shorter, but fundamentally you can peel it out, but aesthetically in a pack, that whole thing just doesn't look right on the shelf. And because it doesn't look right on the shelf, there's this perception that people are not going to buy it. So yeah, I think education would be a really good thing. I think we could get into a situation where we could make more of a thing of that. You know, there's all this great work going on behind potatoes and that industry will be under pressure, like every other industry to reduce inputs and to become more resilient and environmentally friendly. But there's going to be this trade off between achieving that and the sort of potential pitfalls that that brings as you reduce your inputs.

7:11

That's really interesting. I think we might come back to that in a future podcast. This idea of basic blemishes that, that create food waste when the food that's actually being thrown away, perfectly edible, thrown away obviously in different ways and in, in your case at least you got some energy from it. Hugh, just coming across to you. Could you introduce us to, to both your farms just briefly and then tell us the key things that you think make your farms resilient.

7:57

Viney's farm is my wife Helen's family farm. Approximately 700 acres. Mixed cereals, wheat, barley, oats, peas, all seed rape. All the crops are pre seeded by stubble turnips and we've got 80 acres of water meadows and downland which are fairly sensitive. Farm is farmed in partnership with my business partner Billy King. Includes a modest freehold but is dominated by the National Trust's two 800 acre Stonehenge landscape which is co grazed with our neighbour. We may lamb a closed flock of 950 Romneys and spring calf, 40 native breed sucklers. Nearly all of both holdings are within stewardship schemes aiming to protect principally at risk archaeology, native chalk downland and the River Avon which bounds both farms. Most of the produce is sold to local merchants farms and Salisbury Livestock market. In terms of your question about resilience, we've tried to build resilience by employing low cost systems where possible. The sheep for instance. We use no hard hard food for the sheep and we finish everything ourselves. We're all min till or direct drill. We've always kept a lid on machinery costs. They're always first change machines so our cost per acre for machinery is Fairly low. We've always reincorporated straw in our system, so we've got good worm numbers and high organic matter. We've also tried to really encourage the next generation and provide training and involve them so that they can help us in the other direction with, with the new technology.

8:21

And we'll come back into some of those issues as we go forward. And of course, you know, talking about the Stonehenge landscape, I kind of forget sometimes that it's not just about the stones themselves and you're farming the stone field with the tourists, you know, coming around alongside the sheep, but also that broader landscape which is just, you know, filled with archaeology of whatever kind, whether that's barrows or a whole range of different other earthworks and landscape forms. Helen, you're a livestock vet as well as a farmer and I wonder if you could just tell us a bit about both and what resilience means. Means to you.

10:08

I farm with my husband Stuart and parents in law in North Dorset. We farm about 500 acres now. We're tenant farmers of the Duchy of Cornwall and our milk goes to Waitrose and Muller, which is a blessing and a curse probably at the same time. But we, yeah, we have about 250 high yielding Holsteins. Traditionally we would have focused quite heavily on output only. And one of the downsides of marrying a vet is you kind of manage your cows relatively intensively. But over the last 10 years we kind of moved away from that model and tried to really question our inputs and what we need to go into those cows to make them efficient and to make the system productive. And we focus much more on trying to embrace like some regen principles and farming with nature more closely.

10:40

When you say that being a vet there is an inclination to farm slightly more intensively, what do you mean by that?

11:24

I mean kind of intensively in terms of your focus really on the cows. So not in the same way as we would think about intensive agriculture, but more about kind of. I really worry about the cow health. So that has a knock on effect on Stuart. So kind of that intensiveness that we have and we probably end up culturing within the team. So not in terms of intensive farming but in terms of like how we deal with the. And how we manage them.

11:30

Thanks for clarifying that. And sorry I interrupted you, you were just getting onto the veterinary work.

11:52

Yes. So the vet business is. Requires more livestock health. So that an independent farm animal vet business with an amazing team of vets and techs and admin team and yeah, we've been around for quite a long time. But it's a really resilient young team who, you know, where we really foster everyone's ideas and try and make sure that everyone can contribute to the direction we're going in.

11:56

Greg, you're with us ostensibly from Simmons and Sampson to provide some market and policy intelligence. But you're a farmer as well, so perhaps you could give us a quick intro before we get into the policy stuff.

12:16

We farm north Dorset, about two miles from Helen. Really. 180 awesome. Carving dairy cows. Eight and a half thousand litres initially we've come away from being an all year round calving system to sort in traditional 10,000 litres purely because to simplify what I do for Simmons and Sampson try and make it a little bit easier for staffing managing at home. We rear all our own young stock all the way through to either replacements for the dairy or as store cattle and. And that's pretty much it for at home at the moment. And then, yeah, Simmons and Sampson, we are head of farm sales and working with in a team of sort of 29 people in Yeovil, going from anywhere from state energy all the way through to agricultural sales and commercial property.

12:26

Fantastic. Now, for decades farming in England has been strongly supported by public funding of one form or another. This has changed. To what extent can farmers continue to rely on public funding, do you think?

13:11

I think it's worth looking back at where we were previously and then looking at where we're going. 2005 was it was the sort of introduction of SBS where we were paid on a per acre basis or per hectare basis. At that time it's around 90, 90 to 100 pounds an acre. 2015 was the introduction of BPS again similar model sort of just followed on then. We've seen a big change in public funding through SFI recently in countryside stewardship. What we have seen is that the payments typically are coming down. You have much more. We're talking about the public money for public goods schemes. Now we've seen in the past where rents have been reflected because of BPS schemes. And then with SFI we're much more looking now at the actual farming mentality.

13:23

What sort of funding is available for farmers specifically wanting to strengthen their farms ecological resilience in England.

14:09

So if you're in the right areas, sort of the old aomb, so the farming, you've got your farming in protective landscapes. So around sort of Dorset you've got the Cranbourne Chase areas which will fund anything for conservation education facilities. And then looking sort of further A little bit more diverse. You've got. You can obviously look at selling carbon credits, we can look at BNG credits, we can use it, you can use Wessex Water. So there's lots of different ideas and I think as an industry we must be looking at different ideas coming forward. So going down the old sort of old RPA funded routes is probably looking a little bit old fashioned now. We must be looking at the wider spectrum of schemes.

14:16

So that's a combination of private and public funding, isn't it? And I guess the idea was that as the public funding disappeared, as the sort of standard payments that people could expect reduced, the market was going to step in and pick up a lot of that funding on behalf of farmers. That really hasn't happened. And that's partly because those frameworks don't quite exist. And if we're talking about bng, I suppose then we've got to wait until that sort of mass house building begins in order for there to be that BNG requirement for farmland to be used to help with that biodiversity uplift. So they're a little bit out of kilter. And I guess over the next five years the market may step in, but there's still so much uncertainty, isn't there? It's a challenge for everybody. Ollie, I wonder if you could talk us through your rotation and how you've increased plant diversity and then how you've integrated public payments within your business model.

14:56

Probably good place to start. We've already touched on us exiting potato production, but what that did was give us an opportunity to sort of reinvigor and think about the farm, the elements that work well for us and the elements that didn't work well for us. And we'd learned a lot over that time in how we manage our soils and compaction and various other things. So what we did was sit down with the. The mid tier offering and get a bit of a blank map, as it were, and look at fields on an individual basis. And then we wanted to see mid tier, as we had done with HLS before that, as an enterprise in its own right. So very much believe that, you know, whilst that funding's available, that we should utilize it and we should use it to our advantage, but also we should integrate into our farming systems. And that's very much what we tried to do. So we knew we had historical problems with compaction, certainly around headlands. We knew we had areas of the farm that were more prone to erosion and had lower soil organic matters. So we opted to look at those mid tier options and pull them into a farm system. But I was particularly keen to see them integrated with farming and food production as opposed to at the expense of farming and food production.

15:50

So that's very much about, you know, not just getting funding to manage the side of the field for nature, but it's, it's about recognizing the middle of the field as being as important as the side.

16:58

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, farming the bits that are capable of the output and taking your foot off the bits that are struggling and then utilizing that funding that's available to improve those areas over that term. So for instance, we opted to put GS4 herbal grass around 15 meters of every arable field. We learned through potato production that we had these compacted headlands and compacted headlands usually led to lower plant populations, therefore increased inputs, whether it's in fertiliser to encourage tillering or herbicides to reduce the weed burden. But fundamentally what it did was water down your productivity. So by putting those, those herbal headlands in, we reduced our inputs, we increased our biodiversity in every field. But then we were able to use it as a sort of low input grass that we could harvest and feed back to our dry cows and young stock. And it goes back to this sort of thing of our dairy system and it being housed and how we could get to a point of altering how we put the food into there and become more self sufficient in terms of what we did for the rotation. I suppose mid tier really allowed us to dare to believe, it allowed us to get inventive to try some different options. So we very much went off down the route of trying to grow more protein ourselves, more feed on farm. We've been quite successful in getting to sort of 7,000 liters of our 12,000 liter rolling average from products that we're growing. But we've opted to do things like barley and peas and PNB bean by crops. We've tried to integrate beans into row into maize production, anything to try and bring that biodiversity. But alongside it also reduce our reliance on pesticides and fertilizers. More legumes in the rotation. Let nature work for us, let the pollinators be there and the beneficials to keep away the predators, the problems. And it's been great. We've started growing sort of a couple of hundred tons now of barley and peas that we take all the way through to combining. That's displaced as bringing in two kilos a head a day into our young stock, rations of imported cake. And it's been a real success. But, but I think the Main thing is just that increase in biodiversity has seen many more birds around the farm, many more pollinates to butterflies. It's a much nicer place to be in farming. And when it comes back to that resilience, we've just got those options now that we didn't have previously.

17:08

Yeah, fantastic. That's really interesting and it's quite interesting the way that you're framing what you've done, because obviously what you've done is to make sure that your farm is resilient in the short term. But you're setting up those processes, you know, adjusting that rotation in order that there is a stronger likelihood of having that fertility within the field, so that that long term resilience is being built in as well. And obviously you'll be able to adjust that as you go along if necessary. Fascinating. Dan, you got into farming via New Zealand. Tell me, tell me what you learned there and how you've put that knowledge into practice here in the UK.

19:31

In 2013, Holly and I went over to New Zealand. We're both practicing as vets over there. I was working for quite a big corporate business with 15,000 cows over 15 sort of sites. Not all thousand cow, but that was pretty much the model when we arrived. The industry was in a great place. They were on a record payout. I can Remember it was $8.40 was the predicted payout for, for that season. And so everyone was, you know, everyone was happy, everyone was, was pushing production and, and making the most of it. But we was sort of did a six month stint, then came home for three months. And before, before we got back to New Zealand, they were already predicting a milk price crash for the next season. So the prediction was $4.50.

20:07

Just, just tell us what the unit is there. So it's from $8.50.

20:57

Sorry, that's so dollars per kilo of milk solids. So rather than liters like we normally talk about, they're talking about kilos of fat and protein produced.

21:00

And that's particularly because an awful lot of milk that's produced in New Zealand is then powdered and sold into Asia, isn't it?

21:10

Yeah, that's exactly right. So they were predicting a reduction in the milk price for the following season and that preempted sort of a business scale review of the farm systems. Over predominantly the farms are based around grass production and trying to maximize the amount of grazed grass. But actually in the Canterbury Plains they weren't typical low cost dairy systems. There were lots of borrowing to generate greenfield sites on these dairies. Most of them had fairly expensive irrigation systems, so they were costly to put in and they were costly to run. So their systems actually had fairly high overheads that needed to be covered even in a low payout year. Yeah, we went through an exercise whilst I was there. It was really interesting, but it basically involved building the model up for each of the farms based on what we predicted we could grow in terms of grass and then setting the stocking rate around those farms. So some of them we reduced the stocking rate where there was minimal infrastructure. Some of them we actually increased the stocking rate where there was a fee pad and a very competent farm manager who was capable of handling bought in moist feeds that would bulk out the production and allow a dilution of those fixed costs. So that was really interesting when we came back from New Zealand, back to this country, did a spell in Cornwall, but then ended up in Dorset. In the share farming arrangement we're in now, our organic system is very dependent on grass growth. We struggle to source organic forage from outside our farm business. So we basically need to grow the forage to be confident that we're going to have decent quality. The feed input is very expensive, so we're pretty reliant on what we can grow to make our business viable. We had a couple of years where we were growing due to low rainfall and drought. We grew about 5 tons of dry matter per hectare across the farm. And I know from doing these feed budgets that I learned in New Zealand that we need to grow at least 6.3 tons of dry matter per hectare across every hectare that we farm. And when we had a shortfall of nearly 20%, then that sort of changes the system and makes you much more reliant on bought in produce. So for me, I've really tried to focus on maximizing the amount that we can grow here. Despite being in a low rainfall area with free draining chalky soils. They're great from one point of view where we can, you know, after 24 hours without rain we can get out and, and graze. So it's great for our system, but it does create a challenge in the summer. And that's then led us down the route of growing mixed species swards you might call herbal lays deeper rooting plants that can actually tap into the moisture locked inside the chalk. We've grown a fair bit of lucerne, which is great from a drought resilience, but it also really increases the protein that we produce on farm within our homemade forage. So those things have actually allowed us to create a Much more resilient sort of whole farm system.

21:16

Fascinating the way that you're talking about the stocking rate there becoming so important and adjusting that based on the land, based on the cost of inputs in order really to kind of check that vulnerability to booms and busts within the pricing system, within dairy. And of course grass growth really being at the heart of what you're talking about there. And you're part of an innovative farmers field lab on mob grazing, aren't you? And one of the things that, that I always think about when I'm going around Dorset looking at dairy based systems which are just set stocking is how unproductive those lands generally are and how much more productive they could be, you know, with something like mob grazing. So just tell us about that and how you're working to optimize that grass growth.

24:47

Yeah, so the innovative farmers field lab is project run by Soil association and it's a great way of getting a group of farmers together and then the Soil association, the innovative farmers, put some science behind an idea and try to add some rigor to, on farm trials. I think farmers are great at trying new things but actually trying to formalize that, to create some learning. So I was approached by another sort of similar system, you know, grass based organic farmer said, would you be interested in being part of this group? There are five dairy farmers and we're basically looking at the principles of mob grazing, which has been well established in arable systems, allowing buildup of much higher covers on grazing areas and then trying to promote some trampling and then allowing a long rest before the next grazing period. So we basically just wanted to look at how we could incorporate that into what is a fairly high, high intensity grazing dairy system without impacting on milk production from grass. Because typically we understand from grazing that if you allow that grass to go beyond the optimum 3000 kg of dry matter per hectare cover, then you will lose quality. So therefore you'll lose milk. It's been interesting. I think we've all ended up with different learnings from it. I've basically come away with a few learnings that I'm, I'm confident have made a difference. So certainly to create that trampling effect is really important if you're going to try and try and achieve leaving more residual on farm on, you know, on a platform. So if you don't get that trampling, then when you get regrowth, the, the grass is stemi and that's where you will lose production and, and milk, milk from, from that grazing. So if you can establish some trampling, then you can get some ground cover as well. So leaving that, that litter, that's the residual after the grazing period gives that ground cover, which we've seen in the drought period, does create a lot of protection and lower soil temperatures and high moisture retention. So then when, when you come out of the drought, that field is, is much better able to. To respond. I'm convinced that we've seen much greater rooting mass within our trial field as well. So we have neighboring fields that were simply split with an electric fence after they'd been reseeded. So they were reseeded at the same time. And the two fields are like chalk and cheese. Now, with the amount of rooting in

25:31

the two, have you managed to sort of assess the increase in dry matter from that as well?

28:19

Dry matter change hasn't been huge. This last season where we had the prolonged dry period, I was able to get an extra grazing. So I grazed about another 1500 kilos of dry matter per hectare off of that platform. We have quantified the increase in organic matter at a lower depth. So what we've been able to see from the soil samples that we've done as part of the trial is similar organic matter levels in the top profile of the soil, but actually the medium and the lower profiles, we've seen a significantly higher amount of organic matter. And I think that's literally just rooting, getting down into the lower profiles.

28:24

Interesting. And of course, you know, we're primarily sort of focused on the, on the grass production, on the food production here, feed for your, for your dairy cows. But of course, when you have taller grass, when you have more production in the land where you have that nutrient cycling and that trampling, more grass coming out of it, what you're also doing is producing more hydroxyls and hydroxyls. Hydroxyl radicals are particularly important for breaking down the methane almost in situ that are coming out of that herd as well. So it's important for so many reasons to have that sort of additional tool growth. And just to promote a podcast that we're going to be having in two or three weeks time, we'll be having a conversation with the world authority on methane and hydroxyls. And the way that hydroxyls are produced and the way they interact with methane and break it down will be, you know, very much what we're talking about there. So thanks very much. Really interesting to hear that, Dan. Hugh, outwintering stock plays a key role in your system keeping your overheads low. How do you maintain good flock and herd health over the winter, especially, you know, in the weather that we've had recently.

29:07

That's a really pertinent, excellent question, Finlow. We reckon We've had 100 mil more rain in January than the mean and February, we were past the mean on about the 10th, so, yeah, it's a lot to deal with. We're particularly lucky. We benefit from free, free draining chalk downland and arable. We've got fairly high organic matter from incorporating straw and growing stubble turnips on rotation. We direct drill the stubble turnips, which leaves crop residue on the surface and you can actually see, once they've been grazed, you can see deep, boring earthworms making little piles. Pulling that down in the aftermath, really helping the drainage now. So I only walked across a couple of fields the other day doing our farmland bird count and it was good to see and firm. Yeah. We also companion crop where that's in an SFI as well. But we need to carefully manage the stock, whether they're on routes or not. On the roots, we strip graze three to seven day breaks. We back fence when necessary, particularly on the SFI agreement land, we fence across the slopes, we utilize grass margins and fields corners as runback and we supplement with hay. Going on to your herd health. We formed a particularly close relationship with our veterinary practice and they've helped us with flock scale planning. But particularly when we talk about the grazing of chalkland and overwintering stock on roots, they've helped us with supplementation with both the ewes and lambs. So we're now bonusing the ewes with cobalt selenium and iodine and injecting the lambs with cobalt and iodine. The ewes and our modest number of cattle can graze the wider downland over winter and we rotate them round and we can manage by just supplementing them with hay. And in fact, we haven't actually started supplementing even now, so we've been quite lucky. If we do increase numbers of cattle from our modelist, modest numbers at the moment, we might have to consider forage crops for the cattle, but however, I'm really glad we haven't had them on routes this winter.

30:12

Yeah. And we'll come on later to the idea of how you manage to rotate in a landscape like the Stonehenge landscape, because, you know, really interesting, especially when you're talking about the potential increase in the number of cattle and how you get more out of that land. Now, Helen Longmore is high yielding but also regenerative. And of course, you know, we've discussed this on a podcast relatively recently at length, but I wonder if you could just remind us of the key features that make your farm regenerative.

32:28

Yes, of course. And we've always been really interested in ecology and diversity on the farm, but following the like regen principles has kind of helped us bring that all together. So the really important thing is making sure that we have a living root below the soil and a living plant on top of the soil throughout the year. So obviously when you are, we're relatively high yielding, so we grow maize. So that means that we need to make sure we get our cover crops in, in a timely fashion, but also in a way which ensures that they grow which is very weather dependent. So we've played about with lots of different cover crops and we've come back to a relatively simple system of spring beans and spring bars. So that allows us to have cover on top of the soil throughout the year. We have been doing strip till maize for six years now, which has obviously massively reduced the amount of tillage within our system and hasn't had any real effect on our maize yields, which has been great. And we've also tried to really question the inputs that we do put into the farm. So we haven't put any nitrogen on our grazing for the last six years and we've made the cattle work for us in terms of grazing management. So exactly the same as what Dan was talking about. We've made sure that we, we leave higher covers, we try and get some trampling established and that's made a massive difference in the drought conditions. When you come out of the drought, you see much better growth in terms

32:54

of the flood conditions that we've had over the last couple of months. When I came to the farm myself a few months ago, I was just struck by how much nature there was. Big, messy sort of nature hedges and really good growth in those diverse swards within the pastures as well. At the time, the fields just looked, you know, immaculate. They were, they were producing well. There wasn't loads of sort of pot marks across the field. How's it fared across this last couple of months?

34:07

I was really proud of the platform up until February. It's really nice to see on a practical level that the soil is obviously improving. And we managed to travel out and put slurry out in January, which was great. We wouldn't have been able to do that 10 years ago for sure. February has been much more challenging, as Hugh was saying, with that massive amount of rainfall. Or even by the 10th of the month. And the challenge with dairy farming is always about slurry, I think. So all of us need to think about our slurry holding capacity. So Greg, for example, has put in an amazing lagoon which I drive past and I'm very jealous because it's empty. But we all need to think about that because that then has a knock on effect. If you have to go and spread slurry in February because you are, you know, you're overloaded, that will obviously have an effect on your soil.

34:34

And you've also integrated a lot of agroforestry on the farm as well, which in due course will have help with that water holding.

35:17

Yeah, absolutely. And will give us diversity of diet for the cows and has already increased organic matter around it.

35:24

Ollie, you're in a fully housed dairy unit. Now. This is a system that I would normally consider pretty industrialised and reliant on external inputs. I mean, people listening to this will have heard me railing against house systems in the past. So just talk me through how you've managed to increase farm sustainability and reduce your reliance on those outside inputs because what you've been doing is really impressive.

35:30

It's a fair comment. And you know, we've got the system that we've got and you know, we're not ashamed of it, we're very proud of what we've achieved with that system. What's a really interesting fact about our business, back in 2011 we were actually organic and grazing. So we've gone sort of full circle, one extreme to the other, you might say, in terms of our dairy production. But, but you know, we look today at the farm as one big integrated farming business. So we, we've got the dairy, we try to feed it as extensively as possible. We like to be quite inventive and forward thinking in how we do cropping. So, you know, whilst we're looking for the output in every aspect of what we grow and what we produce in terms of dairy and, and our beef system, we're trying to soften it around the edges so that the introduction of by crops to have home grow proteins and offset what we're bringing onto the farm. Pollination strips through the middle of maize fields. Direct drilling of maize into, into standing cover crops. There's elements of things that we try that are more successful than others. But what we do is never give up. You know, we want that sustainability, it's important for the future. Sort of a great example of one of the things we've done in the last three years is due to sort of TB pressures is keeping all of our beef cattle on farm farm and putting some fairly sizable grazing platforms back in place that had been previously removed. And you know, in that system where with the Howes dairy, we actually last year managed to turn cattle out in early March and continue that grazing platform all the way through to sort of December time. It's this integrated model I think is important and I think we've got to be really careful as an industry not to pit one system against the other. We can learn from everybody. I mean sitting on this call today, we, we can take lessons from everybody and that's what we try to do. Surround ourselves with good people, with a really good team and then try and make the most of what's available to us. And it's not all about squeezing every last inch out of it. It's about choosing the right thing at the right point and then integrating it into where you need that output.

35:52

Thanks very much, that's really helpful. I'd like to move on from resilience more broadly and obviously we've talked about that in terms of how system, in terms of fully outdoor and fully outwintered systems. But let's think specifically about that time frame that we introduced in the title, the next 20 years. And Dan, what do you see as being the biggest risks for conventional dairy over the next 20 years?

37:50

So I think there are probably two main areas. I mean, it's hard to predict what's going to happen over the next 20 years. But two things that spring to mind would be volatility in price. I think that is a big challenge. I think that's something that is here to stay and is going to increase. If nothing else, that creates a challenge for businesses who are making rather substantial investments. We are in an industry where if you're going to make an investment, you need to have a long term view over that. And so that creates a challenge. The other thing would be, I guess I'd call it like a license to operate. It would be, you know, our environmental and our social responsibility. So, you know, looking after the lamb that we care. But not only doing that, I think also demonstrating what we're doing and communicating that. That's education, inviting people in to show them what we're doing so that, you know, we don't appear to be sort of a closed book. We're open and transparent.

38:13

And Greg, I asked Dan about dairy, but from your perspective, thinking more broadly and looking out across the next 20 years, aside from government policy, which we've already spoken about what other factors are or should be shaping farm business decisions.

39:20

I think we've touched a lot talking today, diversity and diversification of farm businesses. Looking at holiday cottages, industrial storage, if you're in the right areas, possibly looking at joint ventures, sharing, you know, without help, help each other sharing ideas. You can help share labor. We can obviously share the burden of agriculture, the highs and the lows. You know, it's all good for the mental well being of the industry and also allows if you, you know, on the joint ventures part. I do think it is a quite a big thing for the next 20 years because it size does give options as an industry upscaling to do something to allow more diversity and allow more SFI schemes to be introduced. I think it's going to be imperative looking at different subsidy schemes. I think education as well, it must be looked at more. I think the children are, some children are very, very aware of like ups your ultra processed foods I said, whereas other children don't really know where it's coming from. So hopefully the government will help with education of, of where food comes from. We've talked obviously about the future of every farm continue. But we've also got to look at possibly looking at farms who will change, they will sell up and we've got to get away from the old fashioned stigma, away from actually it's sort of frowned upon by the older generation and actually it's allowing youngsters to come into the industry who are new and new entrants and really want to drive farming forward I think is actually quite an exciting next 20 years.

39:33

I'm interested to hear you talking about the upscaling because of course as you upscale potentially you take on greater overheads, overheads that we were talking about with Dan earlier on. And they might be building overheads depending on what you're doing with that land or simply a much bigger mortgage in order to be able to buy that land. And I guess the question sort of coming back to you Greg is whether it's also possible to look in terms of the future about finding ways of moving away from those sort of bigger supply chains into kind of major retailers and actually trying to sort of shrink that supply chain so that you're sort of selling directly or selling within a cooperative more so that there's sort of resilience from, you know, even at a small scale.

41:01

The farm shops obviously do work exceptionally well. Location is obviously paramount. But obviously getting into local restaurants, local pubs and will also obviously work as well. I think exploring avenues of different ideas

41:42

for the future Helen. Hi, Herd health. And here I'm sort of thinking about how do we know when our farm is resilient? And obviously, obviously, money is part of that, but high herd health combined with a low number of veterinary interventions must be a pretty good indicator of a farm system that's pretty resilient. Overall.

41:54

It is a good indicator. We must make sure that welfare is incorporated in that too. So we've worked really hard to reduce antibiotic use within the industry, but there's still a place for antibiotics and they must still be used. So we need to make sure that welfare is still paramount. And also, I think we need to think about kind of the human cost of ensuring that you have a really good health status in your herd and low input. So quite a few farms would have amazing herds and flocks, but actually underneath the water, they're paddling away furiously trying to keep on top of forage stocks, make sure they know, you know, they've got enough land to spread their slurry on, or enough output for their slurry, and so they're paddling furiously just to try and keep it all going. So I think there are probably other important KPIs that we can look at which kind of encompass a whole system in terms of resilience.

42:11

And, Hugh, you're a tenant farmer with two very different landlords, each with different objectives, and I just wonder if you could talk us briefly through the challenges that that presents for you.

42:59

Thank you. Yeah. Our landlords are at polar ends of spectrum, really. The National Trust principally owns the land around Stonehenge to protect its archaeology and natural environment, as I've mentioned before, and we provide grazing and management services to help them achieve their goals whilst producing sustainable lamb and beef. My wife, Helen, her family farm is under an AHA Agricultural holdings act tenancy and has a private landlord who enjoys exercising his reserve rights, but is also keen to see a large portion of the farm added to local plan for development. Both of these present challenges around planning and security for us, which in turn can have a negative impact on our resilience. The key really here is to understanding each other's position and trying to work together to find a compromise solution that's equitable for both parties. With the National Trust, we've had to be flexible and prepared to venture outside our comfort zone, and in some respects, we've had to swallow our pride in losing the tenure. This relationship is beginning to bear fruit for both parties. Helen's private landlords. However, the loss of losing, potentially losing, an economic unit for our children's lifetime is worrying. And sadly, the compensation provision for that, which is called a case B notice to quit because of change of use through planning, does not reflect the actual loss to the tenant. The Tenant Farmers association have been lobbying for this to be rectified. The inadequacy has been recognised by government who have asked the law Commission to review. It's a challenge for us. And the problem is it means that we are nervous about reinvesting in the business and we sort of hold off those. Those decisions until there's a settled state, really.

43:09

Yeah. So that's. That's very difficult on that particular farm, isn't it, on the other side of Amesbury, as you say. And obviously, you know, we talked about the. The challenges, you know, different challenges of working with the National Trusters don't have. And one of those, of course, is that you need to keep an open landscape and you need to prioritize the archaeology there. You're wanting to look at different ways of grazing. We spoke earlier on, didn't we, about the potential to increase your cattle herd size? But you can't just whack up new fences as and when you need them. And I wonder how you think about managing your grazing in that environment.

45:06

Yeah, we rely on a sort of framework of boundary fences around fairly large blocks. You know, 100, 150, 200 acres we subdivide with temporary electric fencing. But this can be problematic in that landscape due to public access arrangements and also the potential risk to archaeology within the World Heritage Site, which they're understandably laser focused on. At present, we have clean ground from our neighbours cattle grazing, which has been really helpful for the sheep. So we have had the luxury of being able to set stock. We would like to move towards a more paddock grazed system, but we are constrained by overseeding work and reversion work, which means that not all the land is available at all times. But we are hoping to trial virtual fencing with the cattle. It's not really appropriate for the sheep. We're hoping to try that this spring and this will hopefully allow management of parcels without the physical obstruction of a fence and all the difficulty that comes with that in our landscape. But that, again, is not without its difficulties and I think it's going to be picking the right tool for the right job at the right time in the appropriate position.

45:39

We're coming towards the end of the program and so I'm just wondering if people can help us wrap up a little bit here. And Helen, what do you think are the chief risks in farming's medium term future, how can farmers ensure that their businesses are still here in 20 years time?

47:00

I think the chief risk for us would be making sure that our farms are resilient to climate change. And to do that we need to be really adaptable so we can't do the same thing that we've always done. We need to be thinking on our feet. We need to be making potentially quite big changes to our business and not being afraid to make those. And we need to be quick to react and to ensure that we can maintain output profitability within our systems. So that's quite challenging in the farming system where we have relied in the past of doing the same thing that our parents have done and grandparents have done. So I think the people that are going to do well will be the people who can think outside the box and react quickly.

47:15

Ollie, what do you think will make us successful farm business in 20 years?

47:54

I think Helen covered it really well. But know farming's always been a long term industry and it's difficult to predict what the future's got in store for us. So for me success is going to be not about guessing. You know, we've got to use data, we've got to be prepared to try new things and then assess how that goes and try to build businesses that can, that can adapt. I think the farms that will thrive in the future will be the ones that are financially resilient, operationally efficient and are comfortable with the changes that we're going to need to go through. But we've got to have half an eye on everything that, you know, climate policy and also public perception. And we, you know, it's a challenge to know which bit of that is going to affect us the most going forward.

47:58

And I guess in that context it's partly about just sort of trying to reduce as much sort of vulnerability to outside forces, isn't it? Whether that's public funding and public policy, whether it's the cost of fertilizers, the cost of feed being imported from off the farms, et cetera. So being able to create that resilience within your own farm system, a much more sort of circular farm system and

48:39

you know, it's understanding your own farm. You know, we can learn from each other, we can learn from different systems, but every farm is an individual business, every farm has got its nuances and we, and we've got to do it. I mean, for us, we spend a lot of time looking at data, we spend a lot of time analyzing the decisions we make and then we move forward from then. And I think that's going to be a huge part of doing that.

49:01

And Dan, just finally, from your perspective, what's the the one thing that'll make the biggest difference to ensure that your farm business is still there in 2046?

49:21

I think it's an interesting question. I am a new entrant into this industry, as is my wife. We are doing this partly as a lifestyle choice. We've got three young children or three young potential farmers. And I guess probably the biggest thing to determine whether or not our personal business is here in 20 years time is whether we can demonstrate to them how exciting, how responsible, how sort of sustainable the industry is and what a good career it is to encourage them into the industry. We hope over the next several years to build something that they could continue if they wish to.

49:29

Fantastic. That's great. Well, look, that's it. That's all we have time for. I'd like to thank my guests Greg Ridout, Helen Rogers, Ollie Blackburn, Hugh Morris Harrison and Dan Gammon. This program was based on a live panel event recently hosted by Farmgate and Friarsmoor Livestock Health, which was sponsored by Simmons and Sampson. If you've enjoyed listening, please come back and listen to more. Tell your friends like us, review us and share our links. Farmgate is the world's highest ranking food security podcast and we're part of89.com, the land use news channel, which is supported by First Milk Pelican AG, the nature friendly farming network. Friars More More Livivestock Health, a Grolo and individual donors. And I've been Finlo Castane. Bye for now.

50:10