Persona 4 Golden | Bonus Episode

Hello and welcome to a very special bonus episode of Into the Aether. It's a low-key video game podcast. My name is Brendan Bigley. I'm Stephen Hilger and I'm grinning with two raised fists in the air, kind of like Teddy himself. Kind of like Teddy. Yeah. Yeah, I was giving a... You could push me over very easily. I'm so excited to be here. I think I said my name. I'm Stephen Hilger and this is our very special bonus episode for Persona 4 Golden. Yeah. It may or may not be a low-key video game podcast, depending on what the runtime is. I think it will be long just because we were talking before recording like, okay, how do you want the structure to be? Do you want to just talk freely? Once we get into spoilers, do you want to just talk freely about the game or do you want to go dungeon by dungeon? And the minute I said that, I'm like, whenever we kind of go by the plot, it's four plus hours. Like, I remember we, for our Last of Us Part 2 episode with AJ, our producer, that was like one of our longest, our first longest bonuses because we talked through the story. It just adds two hours to the episode length. Yeah. I'll say this at the very, very, very top. One of the reasons I agreed to doing this episode with that format is because I found at least when I finished Persona 3, that the experience of playing a Persona game is very different from knowing what the story of a Persona game is. I think there is something to be said about following the actual timeline of the video game because even in the downbeats, like that's actually maybe the most important part in terms of what's endearing you to these games in the first place. So I think it makes sense when discussing a Persona game in the kind of depth that I think you and I want to today to talk about it from a dungeon to dungeon standpoint at least. We will start spoiler free. So this is your first time hearing about Persona 4 at all and you're just like, what the hell is this? How did this end of my podcast feed? How did I download this MP3? It's like the metaverse navigator showing up in Persona 5. Just like I keep trying to delete this app and it keeps showing up. What's this bear shaped phone I found in the sewers into the ether? We're going to start talking spoiler free about the game, just what we like about it and our experience with the franchise and this game in particular. But then we'll start talking about what happens and some really deep thoughts. And then we'll answer a bunch of questions, a bunch of you sent in some great questions. We got a lot of fun questions. I'm very excited. I will set up sort of the check off's gun here. I added something. I think you might have seen it. I just wrote I wrote asterisk, some light prop comedy, light prop comedy. Yeah. So expect some light prop comedy in this audio media, which is going to translate. Yeah, exactly. Really well in podcast form. Anyway, so it's a bonus. Yeah, we usually start with like, here's our history with the game or the series worth noting too, because then this is potentially someone's first episode, given the popularity of this game. First of all, thank you for joining us. Yeah. And basically, the format of our show is that every week on Wednesday, Brendan and I will talk about games that we're enjoying. That's kind of it. Like we make an effort to focus on the positive. Sometimes they're new games, sometimes they're old games, I think, allowing ourselves to be open to what we're playing kind of lets the format of the show grow in interesting ways, because sometimes it will be like we're just talking about the big new releases. And then sometimes we'll kind of go down a rabbit hole that is completely time agnostic. So I think we've both enjoyed over the past eight years, just like allowing the show to not necessarily be about our takes on things, but about our like journey of discovery, like literally like learning more about ourselves and about what we love about video games. Yeah. So that's kind of what to expect every week. It's a pretty open and flexible format. I will say this episode in particular does feel like the end of maybe an eight year arc in some ways. Yes. That's why I had both fists in the air. Yeah. I was excited. And I would I would even argue an even longer arc than that. But specifically, like it is almost the culmination of the first eight years of the podcast, I would say. Yes. Absolutely. Which is ironic, because I feel like this is technically our first like official persona bonus and just to quickly explain what that means. So like we have the weekly format and then we'll occasionally do what we call a bonus episode that is usually about one game or a series. So at this point, we've done a lot. If you want other recommendations, I think my favorite bonuses that we've done off the top of my head are Chrono Trigger, Ocarina and Mother 3. But I honestly have enjoyed them all. And we also are big like our big event episodes that we do twice a year. At the end of the year, we do Goaty, of course. And then in the summertime for our season premieres, we've started doing big console retrospectives. So kind of connected to this episode, we've been gearing up to do a Vita episode for our patrons. And then this summer for everyone will be doing a PS1 retrospective, which is going to be a lot of fun. If you want to follow that, I'll put my backlogged in the show notes and we have the full playlist like in backlogged if you want to play along. But that's the show. Unless you want to add anything else, Brendan. I don't think so. No, I think that's basically it. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being here. I want to segue back to your point of this being like an eight year journey. And maybe that will also be a nice segue into your experience with this franchise and everything. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So I if you have been listening to this show since the beginning and we lightly joke, but also seriously mean sometimes that this show is best listened to in order, like go back to episode one and listen to the entire thing all the way through and then catch up to now. That doesn't mean you can't jump in right now. But if you have been listening since the beginning, if you are an old head, you know that when we started doing the podcast, I was not a fan of turn based RPGs. Like the JRPG in general was a thing that I was not not not a fan of. That's a little bit harsher than I want to be. I was like curious about it. I was JRPG curious. I wanted to get into it. I wasn't totally sure like which one was going to be for me or how. And over the course of the show, I have tried many, many, many of them. And I would say in the first like two or three years finally started to lock into a couple in particular. I think the two that were like big turning points for me were Fire Emblem Three Houses and Dragon Quest 11, both of which we did bonuses on, which I would. Say are like prequels to this episode, in my opinion. Three Houses, especially. Yeah, totally. And Dragon Quest 11 became, I think like it's it's tied for my favorite game of all time. Oh, yeah. So we've gotten there at this point. And I think in the years since there's been this like back and forth almost repertoire between you and I, because you came to the show with a lot more JRPG experience than I did. You grew up playing Final Fantasy and things like that, where you and I are now like almost trading blows with like the most obscure JRPG franchises we can pick out of obscurity. Once we got to Xenosaga and then what was what was the DS game you brought? Soma Limit. What was it called? Soma Bringer. Yeah. Soma Bringer. Soma Limit. Yeah, Soma Bringer. You won because I didn't remember the name. So you chose the more obscure one. Yeah, I think there's that. And the one that I always think about is Brave Story New Traveller on the PSP, which I was like really trying to go to bed for. And I was like, I can't do this. Yeah. I may be the only person. It's me and apparently everyone in Tokyo, because when I went to Tokyo trying to find a copy of that game, I could not. Like no one who owns that game is selling it. So there are people out there who feel very strongly about it or they didn't print any of them and it's all a hallucination. Which is also possible. Yeah. I'm the bravest or the least sane. Who knows? But either way, you know, that's been the history of the show, but this truly does predate into the Aether. This and this is the reason that I say this is like the longest arc on the show in some ways. Persona 4 Golden goes all the way back to when you and I first started working together at a video game website that no longer exists. Yeah. It was the era that you like to say was the era where you had a 3DS and everybody else was playing everything else. And I was basically peer pressured by everyone on staff to get a PlayStation Vita for Persona 4 Golden at the release of that. That was this is in 2012. So this is now 14 years ago, which is wild to think about. But 14 years ago, I bought a PlayStation Vita and was like my first JRPG that's not Pokemon is going to be Persona 4 Golden. And I was, you know, being, I would say, lightly rooted on by the other people on staff. But I wasn't having conversations that were like, here's how to play Persona. You know, I was basically just being thrown into the deep end with like really no guidance whatsoever. It was like the other people on staff. And then I also very fondly remember listening to the besties talking about it. Great podcast has existed for a long time. They were big Vita heads and they were big Persona 4 Golden heads. And they were like, this is one of the best games ever made. The fact that this is like on a handheld that you can bring with you is incredible. And I remember their complaint specifically about it being the game takes 10 to 14 hours to get good. And the entire episode was like a de-evolution of their conversation. Turning into is it OK for a game to take 10 to 14 hours to get good? That just became the central argument of that. So it's been burned into my head because I made it 10 to 14 hours into that game on my first attempt. And I remember thinking to myself, like, maybe it'll start to get good now. And then I had to move on to other things. Because again, we worked for video game website. We had a lot of other games that we needed to play and other things that we were doing. And I couldn't just focus all of my time on Persona 4 Golden. So I moved on to other stuff. But when I started this show with you, like when we when we when we kick this off and I said I wanted to get into the like JRPGs in general. All of it has been me trying to get back to this game in particular. Like I have known that I would love this game if I was able to see it through since I first started playing it, but never quite made it there. And just like in the in the spirit of thinking about this and just kind of reminiscing, I actually went back and I listened to a lot of our old conversations on this podcast about Persona's three, four and five in particular. Just to like see kind of where my head was at, where your head was at as we were talking about these things. Because we'll talk more about like your side of things, but like you're coming at this having played the original on PS2 and having not seen some of the Golden stuff, which I think is going to be a really interesting conversation to have. But for me, I've taken so many running starts at this game in particular. And there's one episode where I described the Persona franchise as similar to Monster Hunter, where everyone I know has, I think, taken a couple running starts at Monster Hunter and has had a hard time breaking into it. But eventually you do. Like if you are interested enough in playing Monster Hunter and you get a new one every time it comes out, eventually you will have a breakthrough moment where you will get into Monster Hunter. And that experience is huge. Like once you break in, then it's all there for you. And I started to wonder because of my experience with Persona for Golden, kind of never really working out despite all the times that I tried. And then even Persona five, I played probably like 10 to 15 hours of Persona five when it came out. I probably played like 15 to 20 to 25 hours of Royal when that came out, but still never finished either of them. I also jumped into Persona three portable and Persona three Fez here and there. And like nothing really clicked until Persona three reload came out. And that game was one where I just couldn't put it down until it was over. Like I remember saying on the episodes where we talked about it and even in Gody that year, like I was finally having the Persona experience that I'd always wanted to have with that game. And the weird irony of it is that for me, the idea of getting into Persona was actually all to play three. Like three was the one that I really knew I was going to connect with on like a religious level. And I did. I had, I had like the experience that people had with neon Genesis Evangelion with that game in particular. And I like, I love it for that. And I think that's great. But I also have this feeling now where I've had this feeling since finishing it that like now is the time, like now that I've seen a Persona game through. And you told me this years and years and years and years ago, but like once you've made it to the end of a Persona game, the rest of them are just kind of like, like candy. Like you could just like jump into them and you have an idea of how Persona fusion works and why you would be doing it and like how to get new skills and like shuffle time and all of the, all of these like strange mechanics that, you know, just feel kind of like picked out of thin air and shoved into one video game, like all of that stuff kind of coalesces into one cohesive unit. And that made the experience of coming into Persona for golden, like finally work for me, having that knowledge of Persona three reload, despite technically going backwards with some quality of life stuff that they obviously introduce and reload. Golden is still like a very modern video game. Yeah, I think yeah, it still works like it still works a lot better. And there were even years and years ago, you and I were recommending that people start this franchise with Persona for golden if they were interested in it because of how modern it still felt. But because it's also more paired back in some ways than Persona five was. And I will just say on, you know, before we start talking about like really in depth about this game, I had a really good time with it. I think it's incredible. I loved it. I love these characters in particular, which is like the take that everybody has about this game. I do have a lot of critiques about it, some of which people have brought up before and some of which I think are maybe unique to me. But I think it's an exceptional game. And I will reiterate the thing that I've said many times on the show before, which is that even the worst Persona game is better than most games you will ever play in your life. Yeah. So let me let me just add that caveat to the beginning before I hand it off to you, who I mean, your experience with Persona is like you've been doing like a machete order also in your own way. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. It was fun to reflect on all these years together. I it is surreal how I mean, it does feel long ago when we were writing for that website, but the fact that it's like over a decade is kind of chilling. It's pretty wild. I will also just not not to not to reply guy you in real time, but I will just say out loud so no one else has to. Persona one is the worst person. Now we can all move on together. Anyway, I also loved it. So it's interesting, like my experience with the series, I didn't have the same experience of trying it multiple times, but I was sort of gradually introduced to it. Right. And there wasn't an immediate interest. In fact, there was sort of fear and then it became interest as time went on. I think I've shared this story before, but I'll share it again because, you know, it's the Persona 4 Golden Bonus. The first time I ever like was introduced to the idea of this series existing. Like when I learned that Persona was a thing was the summer of 2010. It was the summer of my freshman year after my freshman year of college. And I was at a friend's house and his family was over and his cousin was there. And as cousins do, they were playing their PSP and I was looking at what are you playing? And I looked at the screen and before me was four teenagers stylishly shooting themselves in the head fighting like hot topic Jesus. Yeah. And I was just like, what is this? Yeah. And the cousin looked at me and said, Oh, it's a dating sin. Like that's it. Like no, no other explanation. I'm like, how is this a dating sin? What? That's so good. And at this time, like, you know, so I have kind of a lifelong history with JRPGs, like my foundational game in many ways is FF7. So at this time, I'm pretty, I'm well versed in RPGs, but I'm certainly like nothing compared to who I am now in terms of like doing this show has taught me way more than I could have ever learned just like normally existing. Yeah. So I was familiar with RPGs, but I had truly never seen something like this. And I hadn't even seen Evangelion at that point. So like that kind of imagery that's sort of like, you know, the stylish and kind of shocking imagery of Evangelion that persona three borrows heavily from a stranger to. So I was truly just like, what on earth is this? And I remember looking it up afterwards and sort of being intrigued, but also I had no way to play it really. I guess I could have gone on the PS2, but I wasn't like that interested yet. Yeah. But I remember listening to the music and being like, this is cool, but I don't know, maybe one day and then it kind of left my mind. Years later, we worked for that website. I think I joined in, yeah, it was 2012 or 2013. Regardless, everyone was talking about Persona 4 Golden. And I was like, wasn't that that game where like you fight Jesus and it's a dating sim and they're like, oh, that's three. That's the weird one. This is four. Four is good. And I remember looking up for, and I was like, way more interested in four at that time. Yeah. And I was listening to the music. The music was really the thing that like kept me intrigued. But again, I just didn't really make, I didn't have any money. I wasn't really like buying older games at that point. I just sort of was like, all right, whatever. Persona 5 comes out and I'm like, okay, this series is literally haunting me. I feel like every handful of years it like taps me on the shoulder and shows me something kind of interesting. Yeah. Now is the time. And there was also like a lot, like even before it like completely blew up, there was a lot of like excited press about Persona 5. Right. It really kind of felt like the exact like flow of excitement with the elder scrolls where it's like you have more wind as this like cult hit and then it reaches a larger audience with oblivion and then Skyrim is this like lightning in a bottle moment. Yeah. The same thing with Persona's 3, 4 and 5. I played 5 and I just loved it. And I do wonder if I had played 5 without seeing my friend's cousin play 3 or like be told about 4 if I would have had the same interest in it. So I do think your point of like, you need to sort of take a stab at it a few times is valid or is correct. But regardless, like 5, I just like adored on a level that I rarely feel with video games. I think a lot of people felt that way when it came out, given how like immediately certified as a classic it is. Like it's almost boring to say you like it now. Like it's become so mainstream that it's sort of like saying you like the color red or something. It's like, yeah, of course. Like it's Persona 5. Yeah. We've described Persona 5 as their Final Fantasy 7. Especially 100% with the amount of like spin offs and everything that exists in the orbit of Persona 5, but like it has reached cultural status. Like it got to the point where people just thought jazz music was Persona music. Right. Exactly. So loved Persona 5. And then once I finished it, I felt the worst thing about being a Persona fan is when you finish a game, you kind of feel like empty inside. Yeah. And so I started it again. And then I was, I got like about halfway through it again. And I was like, wait a minute, let me finally check out those weird games everyone was talking to me about years ago. Yeah. So then I purchased at that point, I was buying like older games fairly often. You know, at this point, I'm in my like mid to late 20s. And I purchased Persona 4 and Persona 3 Fez for PS2, just consumed for. I like beat it in a few weeks. It was disgusting. And then I started 3 Fez and really liked it, but needed a break and didn't finish until years later, but also loved that game. Yeah. And since then I've just become like this. This is an easy answer for maybe my favorite series ever, which is weird to realize. I'm like, I don't know if I have a singular objective answer. When I think about what I like about games and the structure of games that I like, there's plenty about Persona that I don't like. And we're going to get into that in this episode. It has a lot of problems. And I don't think any of them are perfect. But I do. I don't think there's another series that does this loop better. The loop of like the life's in meshed with another game. Like so many games try to do that. And I don't think any of them have come close to how good it feels to play Persona. Where like you're always looking forward to doing the other thing while you're enjoying the thing you're doing, like grinding in a dungeon. You're like, I can't wait to hang out with the janitor or whatever. You hang out with a janitor. You're like, I can't wait to make the devil out of this experience. The closest analog is like civilization in terms of the one return idea. Yeah, that's a good point. That's basically it. Like I could not. We could sit here for the next five hours and not say a word. And I don't think I'd be able to come up with any other examples. Yeah, I think I mean, and thinking about the games that I love the most, it's like, you know, they come up every episode, but it's like my favorite series are like Fire Emblem, Mass Effect, Persona. Yeah. And all three of those series gamify your relationships with other people in interesting ways. Right. Three houses comes pretty close to this loop. I do think Mass Effect as well. I think it's a bit more on the rails and it's a bit more like you're not really given like a limitation and choice in the same way in terms of like your interactions with the I guess you choose like who you want to pursue romantically. But like you're going to talk to everybody on the ship, at least most of them. Some of the humans are boring, but you know, anyway. So yeah, I just I just really, really love this series. At this point, I've played through five royal five for Golden for three Fez. And I'm about halfway through portable and reload. So I've almost played every version of three, four and five. I haven't played much of one and two. I started one when we were doing our PSP episode and like thought it was cool. But like again, easy candidate for like the least interesting persona game. I mean, it sets the foundation, but not much else. Two, though, is really cool. I really liked what I've played so far of Innocence Sin. I really hope those games get like a light remaster or something. Yeah. Two is where it starts to find its identity, you know, because I feel like one as a spin off of SMT is like there's an interesting idea here, but it's it's not really being explored to the fullest extent. And then two is when they start introducing like the real character work that I think becomes the bedrock of these games. And then three is when you get the calendar system and obviously things go wild from there. Yeah. Three is the one that introduces like the loop we're talking about. But you're right. Two's characters are really good. And I think that's also where this series does have like a rebellious soul in some way, like even though five is like more explicitly about rebellion. I feel like all of these games are about sort of like breaking norms in some way. Yeah. And in two, the whole premise is that like rumors are becoming reality, which is actually kind of similar to four's whole deal. So it's interesting to see like what are the ideas that keep popping up? I mean, especially if you count metaphors like an unofficial persona game, we're leaning even further into rebellion. Yes, same director as three, four and five. So, you know, it's it's people consider those games a trilogy for a reason. And a lot of it comes out of the fact that it was, you know, all directed by the same person. Yeah, which does raise questions about persona six, but we don't have to talk about that yet. We can talk about that. But conversation for another day. It will probably announce the second this episode comes out. God willing. It's also worth noting that we're recording this on March 21st, 2026. And the persona four remake is still looming in the distance. Like it's been announced at this point, but there's no release date. And I'm curious if that will also be announced the second this episode comes out. The most we've seen is just the protagonist running down a street. Like that's out of the shrine down a street with no load screen. It's worth mentioning between the shrine and the street. So I guess I guess that's what they were really trying to show off. But that's as much as we've seen of persona for revival. Some people ask questions about about revival, though. So I'm sure it will come up later. Yeah, to continue the Elder Scrolls analogy, we basically got an Elder Scrolls six trailer for that remake. Yes, it exists. And maybe eight years later, you'll hear about it. Yeah. OK, yeah, I guess I guess I'll just say, why don't we segue into like just our top level thoughts on persona for golden itself? Now that we've talked about our time with the series, like you, I love this game. It was really interesting having played the original version of four, because this is not a case like persona three, for example, has three different versions that I think people, different people will go to bat for different versions for that game. Like there's a whole fandom for portable over reload and same with reload and fez. Like each of those versions of three has some kind of tradeoff and something going for it that you don't get in the other versions for though. Like I don't know anyone who's saying play the original four over golden. Like golden has kind of become the de facto way to play it. In my research, I found one YouTube video where somebody was trying to make that case and every comment was like clown, absolute clown take. Like I only played the original four because I didn't have a Vita and I wasn't really like looking to buy a Vita for just that game. It's understandable. That's really the only way I would recommend playing original four over golden is like if you only have a PS2 and you'd rather not get a Vita. Although now like it's worth noting, like when I played original four, golden was still locked to the Vita. It wasn't until 2020, I think. Yes, when Atlas ported it, ported a percent of four golden to steam. And like I think that was the decision because I think before then Atlas was like infamous for not porting anything anywhere and people were like, please let us play your games. Not porting anything, but also simultaneously teasing everybody by sending out yearly surveys to all of their newsletter subscribers that were like, would you like if we ported our game style other things? And everyone's like, yes. And they're like, here's toothpaste. Yeah, right. Exactly. Here's tooth. Yeah, here's toothpaste with Teddy on it. Exactly. That's as much as you got. I try it. So now it's worth saying like percent of four, like before golden existed, percent of four was a great game. It came out in 2008. So four years before golden came out. But there really isn't anything in four that isn't in golden. The only thing, the biggest difference, honestly, so like I would say overall persona for is like about 80 percent the same as golden. I don't know. Like if you want a full list of differences, you can I'm sure you can find it online off the top of my head. The biggest differences. So the newest stuff, like the stuff they just added completely is two new social links with Marie and Adachi and a new dungeon, a new, like optional secret dungeon and epilogue and just like new personas, a lot of quality of life improvements, whereas I feel like percent of five Royal, the marketing of that game is more about like here's a giant epilogue to the original game. Yeah. While percent of four golden has that, I think the biggest selling point is just how much new stuff is kind of mixed throughout. Like it's it's more like like gardening is a new thing and like riding your scooter around is a new thing. And there's a lot of new like just scenes of characters hanging out. So it just feels like more complete and it's significantly easier. I remember, I don't know if I've just gotten better, but I do remember playing original percent of four and having to grind way more and getting like my team wiped out pretty much every dungeon at least once. Like I I've grown really fond of the original theme song of the original percent of four because of how often I would hear it getting kicked back to the main menu. Yeah. Whereas golden, I played it on normal this time and I found it to be a pretty easy game up until the final boss fight. Like I think I think it starts off actually in retrospect, I think it starts off like the first boss is pretty hard because you don't have a full party yet. Right. And then it kind of evens out and then it picks up in the like final three bosses. Like yes, I agree. There's like three or four dungeons that all feel like they should be the last dungeon, but they're not. All of those bosses are pretty tough. Even vanilla four compared to three on the PS two is like night and day. Three is so fucking brutal. In ways that are like maybe even beyond what they were intending to do. Yeah. Yeah, they they sand a lot of that stuff off and reload, obviously. But the funny thing about four funny is maybe not the word for it, but like this game famously the original four famously had a pretty short lead time between the release of three and four. They didn't have a whole lot of time to put this game together, which is why they're like reusing a lot of assets and things like that. And a lot of the like tweaks to the battle system remind me so much of the original Pokemon games like Red and Blue, where things are just like kind of so out of whack in some places. Like, you know, I think one example that I see all the time, which I totally agree with because the first time I ran into it, I was like, what are you talking about? And this is this is way too in the weeds, I think for this beginning part, but whatever, if you're listening to this, you're probably also sick of for this franchise. So you know what I'm talking about. But like there are enemies who block almighty damage in this game where I'm like, that's not how almighty damage is supposed to work. Like all mighty damage is supposed to be like type lists. You know, there's a reason it's not on the chart. So as soon as an enemy can block almighty damage, like he might as well just add that to the, to the type chart. You know, there are things like that all over the place that really just feel like a team trying to figure out how to like twist an idea they already had and kind of expand on it in new ways. But I think the, the core of this game and the thing that everybody always talks about and the reason that everybody speaks so highly of Persona 4 is a combination of the location and its characters. Like the people who you meet in this game are obviously incredible. The location I think is really unique for basically any video game with the exception of like Boken and Aziosimhi, like that franchise is maybe the closest you get in some ways to what they're trying to do here. And I think there's like a real, there's a real marriage of those two. You know, I think they explore it pretty holistically, especially between, you know, some of the new characters as well. Like the way Marie is interacting with Inaba, which is the city that this takes place in, I think is really interesting, you know, as a complete outsider to like humanity, which is kind of fun. There's some really fun stuff going on, I think, in this game from that perspective. My feeling about it in terms of like its difficulty is very similar to yours. Like I think the first dungeon in particular, as you're saying, because you don't have a huge party yet, is a little bit rough. And then as soon as you get past that, like that, what's funny is, you know, the besties argument about the 10 to 14 hours before it gets good thing, like there's a world in which the 10 to 14 hours is actually just making it through that first dungeon because there's so much of this game that is on the rails pretty early on as they like lead you through that first dungeon. And then as soon as you get past that, the game opens up and is like, all right, do whatever you're good. Like whatever you want to do is it's all up to you now. And that was the first thing I noticed. Yeah, that was especially coming from five or like the first, I don't know, 60 hours is more gone. I'm telling you to do chores. Like I feel like I have some thoughts about five that I'll talk about because I as you were saying, like when you finish a persona game and you have an empty place in your heart, you're like, all right, onto something. Excellent. Yeah, I just I jumped right into five. So yeah, I have new updated thoughts about five. We'll talk about later. That said, I actually think I don't I don't know what you cut from the opening of this game. Like I would I would in that argument of like, yeah, does it take too long to get started? I think it only takes too long if you don't know what you're getting yourself into. Like I think in the grand scheme of things, once you're in the thick of the once you're in the loop of this game, it goes by so quickly. And it is such a long game that spending that time in the beginning, like really drilling the point home, like this is what the town is like. This is what life in the town is like before you have this exciting call to adventure. This is kind of how boring the town is. Like I think that's all really intentional. I think so, too. I think the thing about this game that really I think works and the reason for the 10 to 14 hours thing that that makes sense to me is because of the length, right? Like the 10 to 14 hours out of a 60 hour minimum video game makes a lot of sense, right? Because if the other 50 hours are making your way through the thing that they spent 10 hours tutorializing, you're going to have a really good time with that. I think the biggest issue that persona games run into in my eyes is the amount of systems at play. And it's the thing that I'm thinking about all the time is like, what is the design by subtraction version of persona? Like how do you like, what can you remove and still have it be a persona game that people connect with and like, don't revolt over? Yeah. And I don't really know what you cut, which means that you do need to onboard people into like a billion different systems, like not only talking about how combat works if people maybe haven't played an SMT game before and don't understand how that works, but like the persona fusion side of things. And then like on the day to day calendar system side of things, like why you would focus on going to, you know, study in the library versus hanging out with a friend and how those two different things impact different parts of your gameplay. Like there's so many systems at play, all while also setting up the narrative and the story, right? Like there's the top layer of like, they also need to make the story interesting and make the characters good for you to want to hang out with them in the first place. There's so much work that needs to be done in that opening bit that I agree with you, like on this playthrough, I was like, damp, like, they're really, I agree. Like there's really not anything you can cut from here. Like it all, I think there's this argument that people make all the time about this game or this franchise in general about like, what is filler and what is not filler. And like, I really think that if you are clicking with what Atlas is putting down with this franchise, like there's no such thing as filler in persona. It's like, it's all additive to the experience of like living in this place for a long period of time. You know, you show up as a character who used to live in Tokyo and is in this town for a year and you need to like just make do with what life is like then. And a lot of that is going to be boring. And like it's it's wild to say. And I think it's specifically wild to say with a medium like video games where the idea is so frequently like high octane, make sure everybody is always engaged at all times. Everything has to be rewarding always that like downtime is just as important in these games. I feel like there are not many games optimizing for downtime outside of ones that like label themselves as cozy or life simulators. And persona is very much like reveling in that downtime. And I think they do that in three and five. But like four seems purpose built to highlight the downtime as actually your reason for the season in some ways. Yeah, it feels like with persona three, because that was the first game with the calendar system and with S-Links, which are basically the game's way of gamifying your friendship. So like whenever you hang out with someone, you level up the S-Links and then that S-Links will have some kind of gameplay reward. So like for a lot of the party members, if you upgrade your friendship with them, they'll start to like do better in combat and they'll like take a lethal hit for you, stuff like that. Right. I think the S-Links were like the surprise hit in three. Like I will say, like even in reload, like the S-Links are not quite as good overall. Like I think there are some really, really good standouts. Like the dying man S-Links is I think the best one they've ever done still. Like that's like amongst the best little vignettes of storytelling you can get in the S-Links. But some of them are like a lot of just like your random classmates are kind of forgettable. And a lot of your S-Links with your party, you don't unlock to like the very end of the game. And because it's more overtly a dating sim in three, you kind of have to choose like who you're focusing on. So you kind of have to choose like, am I talking to Yukari or Agus or Mitsuru or Fuka? I think portable does a better job if you play as the female protagonist Katone because she gets S-Links with everybody. And like you get to kind of know the cast on a deeper level. Like Junpei, for example, the sort of class clown character, his S-Link like completely reframes his character, which is like, I think that's like his S-Link is a good example of why people really go to bat for portable because like that's the beauty of S-Links for your party members is like, you get to know them in a way that the main plot can't account for. Yeah. But the main plot has to move things along in a way and like keep the crew in a group and kind of keep them as like a bite-sized version of themselves. But the S-Links allow you to see them like, oh, what is Mitsuru like when she doesn't have all this pressure on her? Like what is she like when she's like relaxed and talking to a friend? And that's the big narrative design question about persona also, right? Is like, how are you focusing on how are you focusing on these characters growth through their S-Links in a way that is separate from the growth that has to come from the main plot progressing is a really difficult question to answer, I imagine. And like, I find that different persona games definitely lean into different pieces of that. And I feel like three in particular does a pretty decent job of it. And four, I'm a little bit more iffy on, if I'm being honest, in terms of the party members. Yeah, the party members S-Links and we'll get into this, but some of them even feel at odds with the main plots arc for them. Yeah, it's the weird irony of this game is like, I think, I think the S-Links in some ways are the weaker aspect of the game, despite this being the one that everybody, including myself, will point to and be like best characters. Yeah, I think because I think it gamifies the S-Links and makes them more available in a way that's more fun to experience than three, keeping them all to the end and forcing you to hang out with the guy likes his teacher for the first third of the game. Dude. So I just refused to do it. I was just like, I'm just literally going to study every day. So I guess my magician personas will just suck. Yeah, they did the whole time. I didn't I didn't even care. I was like, yeah, you could be level one until the end. I don't want to talk to you. That's why a portable is canonically the best persona three because the magician is just Junpei instead. Oh, oh, that is way better. Although you can escape Kenji's wrath because there's another S-Link where it's the girl who plays tennis. I think it's the strength arcana. Or no, she's the chariot. And she's like, I have a crush on this guy. I hope he feels the same way about me. And it's fucking Kenji. He shows up again. Like, oh my God, I can't escape this guy. And there's no dialogue option that's like, don't even try. He's in love with his teacher. It's like, oh, I know this guy from a past life. Do not waste your fucking time. You're out of his league because you're 18 years younger than you need to be. So weird. Be I agree, I think I think overall persona four Golden succeeds at the life sim piece of it the best. And but I do think it struggles to connect what it does and the story it tells in the life sim part with the main story. Yeah. Whereas I think persona three for for all of its like newness in its mechanics does marry the two pretty seamlessly, especially considering like everyone in that game has an arc, you know, like I like how like in persona four and five, every party member's persona evolves when you max out their S link, which I do think is a smart move gameplay wise, it feels like you did it, you know. But I also kind of like how in three they just evolve in a pivotal moment of story. Yeah. So I feel like in three, it feels like they are maybe making sure the most important beats for the characters happen in the main story and allow the S links for the part members to be like a fun extra. Whereas I think like there are two different stories being told in four. Except with the exception of like a couple characters in particular, right? Like like Teddy's entire S link happens via the main story. Yeah. I don't know if that's the right move, honestly. Like it works, I guess, but it doesn't really allow you to like get to know Teddy when there's like a and I think it's maybe one of the reasons people dislike Teddy so much, but you know, it's like hard hitting emotional beat of the plot. Everyone leaves the room. Everyone is sad and dour. Teddy stays behind and is like, I'm so glad you're here, Sensei. And then he leveled up. And like that's that's as that's as much depth as you give Teddy. Teddy secretly stayed two hours later and ate all my snacks. Oh, my star persona is going to rock. Yeah, there is always a character like usually like in in three and four, the fool, our Kana is like the group. And then judgment becomes like the final act, basically, which I think is fun. It is fun to like give you something because there is a version of like you could play this and not hang out with anyone. So like, I mean, I don't know why you would do that, but like you could just go fishing every day. But the game does like kind of let you know, like, OK, even if you're avoiding this system, we're going to show you how powerful it can be by giving you a few for free. Right. You know, I think that is smart. But yeah, it is weird when it's tied to a character. The person who finishes persona for golden and only has maxed up the fool and justice and Teddy or in judgment and Teddy. And like, that's it. You get like the like the world's next super villain achievement or something. But yeah, I honestly, like, I don't know. There was a time where I would say like which persona was my favorite. And I honestly think they're all despite each of their flaws. I think they're kind of equally strong. Like, I think I would say pound for pound five royal feels like that's the game Atlas has been building up to this whole time. You know, like it's kind of hard. Like three and four are kind of more on equal footing in terms of just the overall production value. And then five is like, oh, shit, this is persona. Like even just the way the all out attacks look compared to how they look in three and four. Yeah. But even outside of the aesthetic, like, I just think the systems and everything, like it does kind of feel like the dream persona game, despite my own issues with five, two. But I feel like the main plot being the strongest and three and the life sim stuff being the strongest and four or five is a happy middle ground, I think, between the two. Yeah. I think you're right about that. I also kind of struggle with this thought in the first place, like the idea of like ranking them. I it's it really feels so subjective and so personal in that way. You know, like, I think three will always be my favorite for a lot of reasons, which I have outlined on the show before. But even just like finishing four and jumping into five. Once the veneer of like, I can't believe this game looks like this wears off. Yes. You start to run into like, oh, yeah, this has its own share of stuff that's going on with it. That's like, you know, holding it back in some ways and excelling in other ways because it's, you know, coming at it from a different perspective and they're all trying to do very different things. And at least that's the way I was thinking about it for a long time. I will say, though, my thought about four and in terms of the overarching plot and I'll get more into the specifics of what I mean by this when we get into the spoiler section. But my overall thoughts about the plot kind of land more on it feels like an attempt at doing what Persona five ended up succeeding at in terms of exploring a specific idea. There's like there's an overarching theme that's being touched on here that is like, I would say, semi successful, depending on which characters you're looking through the lens of, but on the whole feels a little bit underutilized and in some cases like contradictory with itself. Yeah, I think I want to plug our friend, Matt Horton's video essay about Persona four. They go more into Inaba as a setting and sort of the real world's influence on Inaba and like sort of the the conflict in like real world Japan between like the urbanization of a lot of the country and sort of the traditions and like the connection to spirituality as well. That's definitely present here. I would argue one of the reasons the game, one of the many reasons the game feels like it's contradicting itself at times is that it is trying to not paint Inaba and by extension, small, rural towns as like inherently a better place. Like I was thinking about how like the sort of American equivalent of this is like the Hallmark movie, right? Where it's like, yeah, a young professional, you know, overwhelms at her job, moves to a small little countryside town. And it's like, it may be simple, but it's better here. And, you know, it's like I meet a guy in Flannel, who I used to know in high school, whatever. It's like there is this or even start of allies spring up, starting to valley. Yeah, there's this fantasy of like leaving it all behind and going to kind of an isolated place where it's like just nature and maybe a few people you love. And the game wants to interrogate that fantasy while also providing that fantasy. Yeah, it is taking a really nuanced holistic view of it. Yes, right? Like you, which is the canon name of the protagonist, we're just going to get confusing, but you showing up from Tokyo in this place being like, I guess this is just where I live for a year. He's more of a blank slate than a lot of the other protagonists are. I would say especially compared to Joker, Joker like should just be voice. Like he is a totally sometimes. Also, which is funny, right? But then like, Josuke, who's the first character you meet, like he also came from Tokyo or a big city. I don't think they specifically say if it's Tokyo or not, but he came from a big city and is living in Inaba and like fucking hates it. Like he's like, I'm trapped here. My life is working at Walmart. This sucks. And I think that back and forth between like how everybody in the town feels about where they live is very interesting, especially at a time, you know, that this game coming out, what was it, 2010? I think was when the original release came out. No, it was 2008 was the original and then 2012 was golden. Yeah. So in 2008, when it comes out, you know, this is this is the era in Japan where like the economy is really not doing so well and it hasn't been for a long time already and people aren't sure what the way through that is. You have giant things like Aeon, which is like basically Japan's version of a Walmart popping up in towns like Inaba all over the place and then siphoning business away from local mom and pop shops. And you have, you know, just there are a lot of socioeconomic things happening in Japan that are like spelling doom for cities like this and towns like this. Like even on my trip to Japan last year on our honeymoon, like Percy and I spent a month traveling around Japan and there were a couple towns we showed up in where, like, you know, the population was at one point, 33,000 people and is now 3000 people. And 90 percent of them are 80 years old or older. You know, like that that is the reality of where things are now. And when this game came out, they were like starting to grapple with the fact that that's the path and the trajectory they were on without like huge societal changes. And I think this game takes a really interesting approach of like both making the case for making those societal changes, but also reinterrogating the use and the the I would say like the glamour in some ways of towns like this and growing up in places like this, which is a smart thing to be interrogating, right? Like the fact that it's not just taking the Stardew Valley approach, I think, which is the easier approach and works for a game like Stardew Valley. Yes. But would have definitely like cut the knees off. So much of the thematic exploration that they're trying to go for here. It paints the game, I think, in like a brighter light when you consider the fact that it is contradictory in some ways. I think where my critiques will come in as we start talking about S-Links in particular is and I think like the way the game wraps up in particular, like the third act, I think, is where it starts contradicting like its own nuance. Is where I started like bristle at it a little bit. But for the most part, like it does paint a really rosy picture of places like this in a way that I think, as you've said before, makes this the most replayable persona because in a despite being, you know, significantly more limited than what you're experiencing in literally Tokyo in Persona 5, there is a comfort to that experience. There is a comfort of being like every single day, I have only like eight things to choose from to do. Which of them do I feel like doing? That loop feels almost better in a town like this than it does in Tokyo, where it's like I could go to the hot spring, I could go to the batting cages, I could go fishing, I could hang out with this person, I could eat a really big burger, I could hang out with this person, I could go back and study, I could do a crossword puzzle, I could make thieves too. Like there are about one million different ideas at play simultaneously in terms of what you will do next on any given day in Persona 5. And that is part and parcel with living in a city like that. You know, I really do equate it to what you and I have done in real life, right? Like you and I grew up in the same town in New Jersey, which despite being pretty close to New York City, was still the suburbs. And, you know, we were like walking around our town with our friends, sitting in parks, sitting by a lake, riding our bikes around. Yeah, we literally had like a flood plains area, like a bagel store, like a bar. Like it was it had a similar like, yeah, if it wasn't, if it didn't happen to be a half hour outside New York, it would might as well be anywhere else in the country. Exactly. Small town. Yeah. And I honestly, I kind of experienced that recently. I went with with some friends who were starting a flower farm into like really like South Central Jersey ish. Yeah. Mid Jersey, Central Jersey, which I think people think is not real, but is real. Central is more flattering than mid, I would say. Yeah, that's true. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to Central Jersey. I don't dislike you. But anyway, I was in Central Jersey. Did Brenna just say South Jersey is mid? And I just like, I had this feeling while I was there that was just like, this really is not so dissimilar from where we grew up in North Jersey. And it's not so dissimilar from like places I've been in the middle of Ohio and elsewhere. And, you know, it was also in the midst of playing this game. And I was like, it's not so dissimilar from the experience of being in Inaba. You know, like that's kind of what they're going for here. And I think there is this feeling that people have when they grow up in towns like that, that's like, fuck this place, man, I can't wait to get out of here and live my real life elsewhere in like the big city or just like anywhere else. But here and I think so few people are glamorizing moving to a town like that, you know, no one's really doing the opposite until like kind of recently is when people started doing that. And I think in, you know, I think this is a global phenomenon in general. But like some of that is due to the fact that the economy has gotten so fucked up that people are like, I can't afford to live in a major metropolitan area. And it's much cheaper to live in a town like the one I grew up in instead. Like that's a place where I can actually maybe buy a house, which feels like, you know, an impossibility in most places. Oh, yeah. And things like that. So there is this like sense that people are trying to move out of metropolitan areas and back into towns like that. But no one's still glamorizing it. No one is talking about it from like, I can't wait to do this. This is going to be, you know, where I achieve my my fullest, truest version of myself, you know, out here in the middle of nowhere. And I think this game does make a strong case for the kind of life you can live in a place like that. And we talked about this now months, if not years ago on an episode. But I think the thing that's interesting about this game and the way in which it specifically denotes the flip that both you as the protagonist and you as the player will probably have around the same time is the end of spring and the beginning of summer in this game. The entire spring season at the beginning of this game, it is cloudy and it is gray and you never see the sky. And then the first day of summer, the sky is blue. And it's like one of the day is like the first day of summer is also a day where like you can just kind of do whatever you want. And you are, you know, given basically limitless options in this beautiful, beautiful, sunny day. And it makes Ina Buh this place that felt so oppressive and like there's a murder. We haven't even talked about the plot at all. Yeah, I was about to say like it's telling we haven't even brought up the murder mystery. That is the main plot. Yes. There's a murder thing happening where like many people have been killed in this town recently and all you are thinking is like, wow, it's so nice out. I can't wait to call up my friend and go hang out with them by the flood plain. You know, like that that flip is so interesting. And that that I think is where this game really succeeds. And that's why I said at the beginning, persona games live and die by actually playing them instead of like just hearing a plot synopsis or just knowing what happens, which is why despite knowing every single plot beat of Persona 5, I am playing it for myself finally now all the way through. Hell yeah. But like that experience of Persona 4 waking up on the day where it's summer and being like, I can do whatever and I love this town. Like that's a feeling you don't get just like going on Wikipedia or just listening to a podcast like this. Yeah, absolutely. Thinking about that flip of like, oh, this has suddenly become a place I want to be and I'm glad I'm in. I think the very obvious like central thesis of every persona game is that like life is worth living with other people. Like you find meaning both for yourself and for the place you're in when you're with people you care about. It's something that's really effective in three when without spoiling that game, there's a point towards the very end where you can't hang out with anyone. Like you pretty much just go to school and go home and go to sleep. And I've rarely seen a game portray what like a thick fit of depression feels like, you know, where it's just like when your life is on autopilot, even in this game, it feels so unsatisfying. And you realize like even that dude who likes his teacher, like I would write maybe not him, but even just like having the option to be with other people is better than just doing like what is immediately required of you. Yeah. And that's a big thing too. You see that all the time in four that like the characters that are either villains or on the wrong path are all just kind of going through the motions and are only caring about what they get out of it. And usually for the goal of leaving Inaba. Right. And I think it's interesting too to compare Persona, you mentioned in passing like Persona 5's portrayal of Tokyo where like, I think that game shows Tokyo as a fun place to live, but it's certainly not romanticizing it. I feel like if anything, it's kind of critiquing life in a big city, like that opening beat is just making fun of how complicated public transit is in a big city, especially Tokyo. The first time you go to school, is that what you're talking about? Yes, exactly. And I mean, like it's it adds to the identity of the game because that game's story is more about society at large. So it makes more sense to take place in a gigantic city like Tokyo than Inaba. But I don't think it's like Tokyo is almost like an afterthought of the game outside of just like the design and the sort of energy of it. It's not really as interested in talking about like what is life like in the big city as this game is interested in what is life like in a small town? Yeah. Persona 4 really does feel like this interesting like gradient between three and five, because I think even what you're talking about in terms of like specific characters and their motivations, you know, going through the motions, mostly being isolated from others, right? Like most of these characters that are on a bad path, isolated themselves in some way, shape, or form and then wanting to leave Inaba, like that feels so much like apathy syndrome in Persona 3, which is explored, I think, very well and and and, you know, ties into the calendar system in a really interesting way. And then so much of 4 is also interested in like what is society writ large carry care about and, you know, how does that materialize in a town like Inaba? And that, I think, is, as you're saying, almost better explored in the environment of a big city in some ways. So you have this game that is like pulling from the past and also, you know, doing a rough outline of what they're going to explore in the future. And I don't know how well all of that kind of coalesces in this game, but it does create one hell of a place to hang out and some great characters to hang out with along the way. Yes. And that's the thing that is so strange to me about it is like when I think about my, you know, when I, when I, over the past couple of weeks, as we've been gearing up to do this episode, when I've been thinking about like, OK, what are like the things I really want to hit? Like what points do I want to make? Like what, what are my real, like true persona feelings about Persona 4? So many of them are critical. Like so many of them are the things that this game like does not do very well. And yet all I want to do is start the game over or like as soon as revival comes out, like play that remake, I am like desperate to see the ends of other S-Links that I either didn't finish or ones that I didn't even start. Like there's so much that I didn't do in that game that I'm dying to go do again. And I think it's notable that like this game ends with an option to start a new game plus, which maybe that was present in the other ones. And I just didn't know that. But the fact that there is like a new game plus option that shows up in this was like shocking to me. I'll also say like without spoiling when the game actually ends, the characters are all like, we can't wait until you visit again. Yeah. And you literally do in the Golden Epilogue, like there is like a summer reunion and like all the persona games, at least three, four and five end with saying goodbye to everyone. Right. But in three, you're not visiting. That is the last time you're seeing everybody. And even in five, there's like a little bit of this finality to it where like characters talk about, you know, saying, well, I guess they do because there's all those sequels. Maybe it's similar to four, but like four does feel the most kind of built to be replayed. Even just the fact that it's the only persona game where a couple S-Links have a choice. Like you have to choose which character you hang out with. Like there's the soccer and basketball S-Links and then there's the music and band S-Links. Not like a specially good S-Links, if I'm being honest, but like even just the fact that the game has like you actually can't even meet everyone, even if you max out every S-Links, like you'll have to replay it. And I think when you said that when you reflect on this game, what comes to mind is mostly critiques, even though you deeply love it. I think that goes back to what we already said, where like this game's strength is in the mundane. Yes. It's harder to praise a mundane moment that truly feels like you lived it. I think that's the strength of this game in particular is like there are so many innocuous moments with the cast that just feel like you're actually hanging out with your friends. There are characters I really love in three and five, but this cast as an ensemble feels the most like they're your actual friends. It's the only time playing one of these games where at the end I was like, I need to know how the rest of their lives went. Like I'm desperate to know how they're doing. Like the fact that Risse shows up in ads in the subway in Persona 5 was like such an like I exhaled so I literally just I never noticed that before because I had never gotten far enough in four to like hang out with Risse. But literally before we started recording, I was playing five and I was in the subway and I saw an ad with Risse and I like had this deep guttural exhale that was like, oh, she's all right. She's doing. I mean so much. And I've heard that now it shows up as well in some ways, like their illusions to now toe in five as well. And like that makes me feel so good because I care so deeply about these people as people and like I want them to go on and live like good lives and hope to God that the choices they make are actually the right ones for them. In a way that like I kind of already knew at the end of Persona 3 that everyone is going to be OK and they all have those like big arcs already that they have that like those kind of transformative moments throughout the game. But I think compared to like three feels like you are building a family in a way. Right. Yeah. Three really feels like a family that's coming together and four is interesting because it's centered so much around family. But like the experience of meeting and hanging out with all these people really does feel like building actual true friendships. Like when I think about each of these people, like I do think of them as friends in a weird way and then five is like there's friendship in there. There's family in there, but it's like also kind of like co-workers in some ways. And I don't I don't mean that like I don't mean that in a negative way because those characters are also great and I really like hanging out with them. And I think a lot of them have really great. They're not S links in that game. Confidence. Confidence. Yeah. Yeah. In that game. But this is the one that like nails the friendship element of Persona the best to the degree that like now that the game is over, I'm like, can't I just call up GA and hang out? Like, can't we go trained again by the floodplain? Yeah, I feel like five. You said co-workers, but I also think it feels a little bit like a superhero team more where it's like when everyone joins in that game, it's I mean, I love the awakening scenes in five. They're so fucking good. But I also don't think anyone joining feels quite as meaningful as Ryuji and on like those those two. Like you're kind of bonded. You're like, have gone through so much trauma together as a trio that like everyone else joining feels like kind of tertiary in some ways. And I've said that before. I think like, whereas Persona 3, I do actually think you need to see it through all the way to like fully experience what that game is trying to say. Yeah. And I'll say for the listener who might think that that's hyperbole, like I you had been telling me that for years and I am fully 100% on board with that statement. Now having finished it. And I feel like with five, I think five's first palace does almost too good a job of like saying the thesis of the game that like everything after that is kind of just a different version of the same idea. Yeah. It's still a great. I mean, I love five. And I think there's great moments after that first palace, but nothing feels quite as personal or like effective as that first dungeon, in my opinion. And four, I think kind of feels just pretty even throughout because the main plot is not quite as in focus in some ways by design, because like without saying too much, like the big bad is literally trying to obscure the vision of the main plot from you, which is very clever. Yeah. Yeah, the whole squad is like on the same point of the investigation until now it shows up basically like they have not progressed at all in terms of even coming close to an idea of what is happening and who is doing it. They're just like, I guess we'll just keep going in the TV and saving people. But like, and then they're like, oh, here's an actual detector. Here's an actual detective with your thoughts. That's that happens to a degree in five as well, where it's like you're kind of beavis and butthead until Makoto shows up. Like on Ryuji and Joker are like a great trio, but like they all share a single brain cell and I think when Makoto shows up, it's like, all right, this is the actual plan. First of all, don't yell. I get I love being a phantom thief in public right to like here's how the metaverse app works. Yeah. Um, yeah, there's a part early on where like you're literally at Shibuya crossing and Ryuji is like, so when are we going to steal Kamashita's heart and your only your only responses are shut up and don't be so loud? It's great. It's I mean, this is such a great series. You know, I think especially considering, I mean, it's wild to think how old this game is like, like we said before, it feels remarkably modern. I mean, it feels dated in many ways too. But like in terms of just like how the gameplay feels and even just like how like, like there are games from 10 years ago that feel much older for lack of a better word than this game does. I think it's partially because this style of game has become so much more common. Yeah. Like when this came out in 2008, the real like your only real point of comparison would be like, like you said, Boko no Natsuyasumi may be animal crossing, maybe like some visual novels like murder mystery, visual novels, but like, yeah, nothing quite like this. I mean, persona remains one of the kind, but I do think it's amazing how common like the relationship meter has become, you know, like even in some of the most like AAA, we're doing Assassin's Creed checklist game. Those games have now started adding like, oh, and if you do more missions with this guy, like he'll give you a better deal at the store and like, right, you'll get a little vignette about his life. That's kind of become like almost expected in a lot of ways where like this was so fresh and new in persona. Right. Because people want depth, right? Like that. I think at the end of the day, this is the thing that, you know, is the constant back and forth between video games is like, how wide do you want to go versus how deep do you want to go? It's why you, it's why you and I have talked and spoken so highly about the Akaza franchise, like Dragon Franchise. That's a great comparison too. Yeah. It's just this feeling of like, Kamurocho being this place that you return to over and over again and every time they set a new game there, there are like more buildings you can go into than the last time or they've changed a little bit since the last time. And there's just more stuff to do in the same, you know, 15 block radius that you kind of know by the, like the back of your hand at a certain point, you know, that, that idea of continuing to go deeper and deeper and deeper into knowing not even a city, but like one, one neighborhood of a city, I think it's really powerful and that's what persona is so good at is, is like giving you so, so, so much depth in this one location. And they even pull that off in five in a place like Tokyo, which now, now that we're talking about it, I'm like, we should probably do a persona five bonus at some point also. Maybe when I wrap that up, I'm down. I also think they do a good job in metaphor, which is probably the widest that go being like this epic fantasy kingdom, but like they're, they have some restraint, like there's only like four or five cities you go to. Right. And in some ways it feels like, you know, you were, you were hypothesizing like, where could the next persona game take place? And I haven't stopped thinking about your suggestion of Hawaii as a location, which would just be so interesting and so different and like so historically rich to explore, not to mention the mythology as well. If we want to pull personas from like, you know, Hawaiian folklore or whatnot. But regardless of, regardless of what they do, like I think metaphor showed that you can, you could kind of set the whole game in any one of these cities and it would work. You know, you have like a sort of mossy, smaller fantasy town outside of a big castle town. You've got this like tropical island. You've got this like kind of totalitarian like you got the fire level. You've got the ice level pretty much. I realized I was saying that while I was going through like one place is warm, one place is cold. You can jump higher here. You're little here. Space for a bit. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's set in space. Why not? Hello. I think we're probably approaching spoilers now. So maybe this is a good like point to cut off. It's also been like an hour. Unless you have anything else you want to say before we get more into spoilers. I knew this was going to happen with this episode. Of course, it's been an hour. No, I think you're totally right. We should we should get into spoilers. Hey, if you haven't played Persona 4 Golden, it's an extremely good video game. Yeah, I would highly recommend it. I guess I'm curious before we move into spoilers, would you recommend starting with this? Do you still think that like this is a good second one to play or do you think it's a good one to start with? That's a tough question. I I true like honestly, and I think you will probably disagree with me. And I think a lot of people disagree with me. I think the best starting point for this franchise right now is Persona 3 Reload, actually, because I think I think the the skeletal foundation of three is even more streamlined in terms of the amount of things you can do than four is, you know, despite four taking place where it does, like, you know, three being I guess the first of this trilogy, they were still figuring stuff out. And the amount of places you can go and things you can do on a day to day basis are like pretty limited, which I think in some ways gives you the feeling of like a wider degree of motion that on top of all the quality of life improvements that they've added, having learned from the success of five specifically makes three reload a great on ramp to this franchise because you're not going to be overwhelmed by the amount of things you can do per day. As we've already said, the story is incredible. The characters are amazing. It all coalesces by the end into an extremely satisfying conclusion. Like, I think that that game is a great on ramp into this franchise. And then I think you could go to four golden or five and have a great time. I think until three reload came out, five would have been my five royal would have been my obvious like this is what you should play first and then go backwards if you like it. But I actually I think three reload has made a pretty good case for a good first one. Yeah, I agree with you for the most part. I think my answer would be like whatever one looks the most interesting, you'll probably have the most fun playing. That's all true. Yeah. But I think in terms of structure, five royal or three reload and probably once the four remake comes out, that will also be like an equally good starting point. Yeah, that's the that's the like, you know, shadow peering behind the column in the background of the conversation is like at some point that might come out and end up, you know, taking taking that spot. I'm extra. I feel like we should do a persona three bonus once we've finished every version of three completely lost our minds. Yeah, I was thinking in the back of my head while we were talking earlier, it'd be fun to do a three bonus where you finish reload and I finished three portable as Katone. And then we then we can talk about both. That would be actually that would be awesome. Yeah, it's funny because we technically do have a royal bonus, but it's from the earlier years where bonuses were a little bit faster and looser and like in some ways were literally just here's an extra episode. I did actually re listen to that and it's about 30 minutes of us talking about five royal tacked on to the end of about two hours of us talking about Animal Crossing New Horizons. Yeah, I think it was like the pandemic just began and we were like, why don't we just talk about what we like? And that will be this month's bonus. So that's a fun like and also on our Patreon about Jesus, about four years ago, I recorded an episode with our good friends, Alana and Kelly, who were like probably the biggest, even more than us, the biggest persona experts. I know we had a lot of fun going through three, four and five, although at that point I hadn't played Golden. So I've we I've said this before, we've we've accidentally mirrored the games and like releasing incomplete versions and then re releasing like a royal version of an episode. Yeah. But I would I think it's only matter of time would definitely do a royal episode and then a three of three episode would be a lot of fun. Three complete, three complete. Yeah. Yeah. And then whenever, whenever six drops, that will probably be like an immediate thing. Oh my God. Yeah. I wonder, I feel like my hunch, I want to put this out there before we move on. But like my hunch, I think, I think we'll definitely get an announcement like a release date for persona for revival this year. I don't know if it will come out this year, but I think we'll know the release date at some point this year. I think you're right about that. Yeah. Persona six, I think is a 2028 game at the earliest. I don't expect that like anytime soon, maybe like a game awards or summer games fest reveal like next year. Yeah. They already missed their window to say persona six 2026. So, you know, I guess it's 36 now. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be 36 is going to be persona six. It's funny because like famously one of the reasons that persona five was such a big deal when it launched outside of how good the game is by itself is the famously, famously, famously long development cycle for that game. You know, if you talk about persona four coming out in 2008, you know, and then like a team of people working on golden while the rest of them moved on to five like basically eight years because that was 2016 in Japan. Yeah. It was announced for PS three initially and then eventually came out on PS four, I think is a great indication of how long it took. I think it came out on PS three in Japan, but then worldwide was was 2017 and PS four. But regardless, yeah, they'd spent like eight years on that game. And it's approaching time was a long development cycle and now is just the norm. But yeah, now is like, yeah, now it's like what six plus years is the norm. Although that said, pretty much every almost every year since persona five has come out, there has been a persona five spin off, which is I think partially why people are a little bit sick of it. Like, yeah, 2019 was Q2, new cinema labyrinth. Twenty twenty was persona five royal. Twenty twenty one was persona five strikers. And then Tactica at some point, Tactica was a little bit after that. And then the mobile game. Yeah, like almost every year, like clockwork, there's another persona five. Yeah, unreal. I mean, Atlas has been like, look, I wanted to take as long as it needs to. But I would be more impatient for persona six if they weren't releasing some of their best work over the past decade. Like even just a couple of years ago, like that was Unicorn Overlord, which I know is vanilla ware, but it was under Atlas. Yeah. And she made on me 10 say five engines, persona three reload and metaphor. We're all that year, which like maybe they could have spread out more in the lead up to six. But and then now we're getting this for remix. Anyway, yeah, why don't we break here and and we'll get into spoilers. But thank you for listening. If you're if you're leaving us here, thank you so much. Into the cast, it online is our website. We appreciate you and we hope you enjoy a percent of for golden. If you're going to go play that and if you don't want to, then just thanks for hanging out for a bit. Yeah, go play it, come back and we'll talk about we'll talk about meeting a gas station guy. So King Moron is kind of the fool in secret, in my opinion. Bye everybody. Zahl Zahl Zahl Zahl Zahl Zahl back. Hey, final warning. We're going to talk about spoilers. We're talking about the game, the whole video game. Yeah. We're not going to go through like every single plot beat, but we will kind of anchor the conversation with the dungeons. So like, yeah, our first 80 hour episode, we're going to redeliver every line of dialogue. The worst part is I'm not against that. Tonight I'll be playing the role of a King moron and the gas station attendant. Yeah, I'm going to be Dojima and Nanako. I think you'd be a good Dojima. I would if I were to cast you in this, it would be Yosuke, actually, I think you've got a Yosuke energy in a better way than he does, but you kind of have that carefree vibe. That's very nice. Well, thank you. Oh, actually, I think if you ever wanted to cosplay and dye your hair, you could do a great persona for hero cosplay. If I do say so myself. Oh, that'd be fun. I would love to do that. I've always wanted, I have oftentimes thought about dyeing my hair exactly that color also. Yeah, I know that's a color you've gone to, which is why I thought of it. Yeah, it's very expensive. That's the problem with it. It's very expensive to get your hair that color. Very close friend of mine used to have their hair green and then gray and they stopped because of just how expensive it got to maintain. Yeah. But it's very cool. Anyway, persona four. So yeah, we'll just kind of talk through it. I think we'll like use the dungeons as like a reference point and we'll kind of talk. We may spoil events later in the game through the conversation. And we may even touch on some things in the other personas, specifically three and five. So we'll give you a heads up if we're going to spoil either other game too. But for the most part, it will be about persona for golden. Yeah. So how does it begin, Stephen? So the game begins. You're a popular city boy moving to the countryside. And it's it's not like you're a silent protagonist, but in the cut scene you're shown, he looks sad about it. Like you see this like flashback of you're in class and the teacher's like, I'm sorry, Mr. Popular is leaving and everyone's like, no way, him. He's leaving. I love him. He's the coolest, smartest guy in school. And then it's you on the train looking at your new home and you move in with your uncle and your younger cousin, your uncle, Dojima and Nanako. And initially it's like kind of icy at home. Like you get a sense that Dojima, well friendly, is not very present. Like he's a very overworked, tired man. One of my favorite persona archetypes is like the tired middle aged dad character. Like Sojaro is that in five and Dojima is that here. You don't really have that in three, unless you count Akihiko is that as a teenage boy. But otherwise thinking the monk also, but that's a totally different. Yeah, that's like a cursed version of this. But yeah, so basically like you're going to live there for the year. You're living with your uncle and the beginning of the game is just sort of like that this is the sort of 10 hour or not. It's not quite 10. It's 10 if you count the lead up to Yuki Kiko's dungeon, which is the first dungeon in the game after like the brief tutorial dungeon with Yosuke and his awakening to his persona. But basically like the first at least two to three hours is like you just sort of walking around town, getting to know like the immediate trio of friends is Yosuke, Chiye and Yuki Kiko. And this is where like they're really beating you over the head with like, this is a small town. There's nothing to do. You have nothing to do yet as the player basically. Right. Yeah. You're you're bored here. Yosuke having had a similar experience is also like, yeah, I've been here for a couple of months longer than you. And let me tell you, it's fucking boring here. And Chiye is just like pretty hopeful and optimistic and like pretty energetic at all times. But even she is like, you know, I spend most of my time watching movies and like working out. Those are like the two things I do. Yeah. So it's telling that like her she's the most cheerful one and she's sort of the most attached to a fantasy of some kind. Yeah. Right. And Yuki Kiko is the most withdrawn, which, you know, initially like leads to this air of mystery, but you later learn she's like just deeply depressed. Like she's just like going through a lot. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So you're introduced to this trio of friends and also to the murders that have started. So there was like a political affair aired on TV. And then I forget if it's, is it the journalist who covers it or is it the the woman involved in the affair that is the first victim? I think it's the, um, I think it's the woman in the affair first. Right. So it starts off like the murders are kind of just like this disturbing event on TV that's not directly related to the protagonist. Yeah. Um, but then as time goes on, uh, one of Yosuke's friends, who he works with, this girl, Saki, she is killed. And that's kind of when like it starts to obviously affect the characters directly. And then I think, I think take a second to also acknowledge like, again, this is a small town where like maybe a thousand people live total. And the fact that three of them have died in like a couple week span at most in like really gruesome ways. Like when, when people die, they're not just like, you know, not, not that this would be any better really, I guess, but it's, it's not just like, oh, they're, you know, they're found dead in the street, but like their mangled bodies are hanging from the telephone poles specifically, which is like really horrifying. Like students are the ones finding them because they're like walking to school and they're like finding these bodies strung up. Um, it's like a really horrifying thing. And it turns the whole town on end because there is immediately as soon as you start the game, there's immediately a sense that like Junis, which is the department store that moved in. That's like the Aeon or the Walmart equivalent. You know, people are already like the town is starting to lose its soul because Junis is here. So that on top, like people have stopped coming here and they've started like going to Junis or just like going anywhere else because Junis is fucking everywhere. So why do I need to go to the one in a bar? There's this sense that like, in a bar is dying and now actually people in Inaba are also dying. Right. So what, what do we do about this? Like as a town? Exactly. And on top of all this, there's a rumor going around that if you watch TV on what's called the midnight channel, like if you put your TV on a certain channel after midnight, when it's foggy outside or is it when it's raining? I know it's like when the fox is in, when it's raining. Yeah. If you check in the channel at midnight, the rumors, I think you'll see like the love of your life or something. Like the rumor is different than what it actually is, but essentially the protagonist does that one night and ends up actually like going into the TV and learning that they have this power to enter the other world. So like in persona three, it's interesting. I find it interesting the ways you enter the other worlds in three, four and five. Like in three, it's like you have to have the potential yourself. So like you kind of have to be an X man to go in here. Yeah. And it's like the dark hour is like when it happens and everything is like transformed into this like creepier version of itself. And if you have the potential, you're like awake during the dark hour, when most people are asleep. Yeah. And then in five, it's an app. It's like an app that's like an app that keeps showing up on your phone. Yeah. Over and over again. And for it, you go into the TV, which I guess you do also have to have like the power to do so. Yeah. Look, I'll say this at the top. I think one of the one of the great sins of this game is spending a large portion of the end of it explaining like the mechanics of how everything worked the whole time. And one of the things that they explain is like there are technically only three people that have the potential to do this at first, but they share that potential with other people. So you as the protagonist, like share the ability to go into the TV with your friends by getting close to them. I think part of that explanation is how the story and the characters and especially their personas connect to Japanese mythology. Yes, exactly. Like three, four and five are all kind of largely rooted in different mythologies. So in three, it's Greek mythology. And I believe the starting persona is Orpheus. And then in five, it's like folk heroes and you start with Lupin. Right. And in this game, it's it's like largely Japanese mythology and, and, you know, gods and goddesses rooted in both Shinto and Buddhism and other kind of like Japanese religion and folk tales. Yeah, you start with Izanagi, I think his name of the persona who is like the the long story short is it's just like one of the gods that is responsible for creating Japan is the idea. Like there is there is a mythology around how Japan was created. He's referred to sometimes as the one who invites. So it's a fun little thing that he is actually the one like giving power to his friends. You don't need to know this, but I think it's like, I do think it's really impressive, especially in four, how much they've gone out of their way to have like all of the supernatural elements kind of echo a lot of mythology and folk tales and religion as well. Yeah, it definitely adds it. It adds a lot of flavor to this game. Like I didn't really know any of that stuff really until the end when I was like, OK, well, I guess not until the end, but like there's a lot of stuff in Marie's S-Link that, you know, talks about this stuff where I was like, OK, like I pick up what you're putting down a little bit. And some of that honestly is because I played Okami. Like I know some of this stuff because like Okami is also kind of like Amaterasu. Yeah. Yeah, it's like kind of a retelling of this same bit of lore or folklore about how Japan was created way back when. But it really wasn't until after I finished the game, I was like, I need to look some of this stuff up and see like how one to one the experience is. And like, basically everything in the game is named after something like even down to the school is like roughly translated to 80 Gods High School, which is about like the 80 Gods who were birthed when Japan first sprung up in the ocean, like stuff like that. And I think I think having the personas be rooted in this like story about the creation of a place as the place is dying and losing its identity is like an interesting dynamic. It's really interesting. Yeah. I also like how a lot of the gods themselves have a duality. I mean, Izanagi and Izanami inherently are like two parts of the same, you know, role. They're both the creator deities, but then they go in different directions. And I feel like the only thing you really need to know our hero, Mr. Itagawa, like goes through the myth in his cameo when the when the kids visit the high school and persona three or from persona three. Anyway, all that aside, basically, correctly, that in persona three portable, you go visit a place that's in persona four also. I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised. You go to the Amagi Inn, I think that's awesome. I haven't gone that far myself, but I love when the games like do little, little crossover things like that. Yes, they did do it. That's cool. That's awesome. Yukiko is in the game as like a little kid. That's sick. Wow. I can't wait to get there. Anyway, yeah, this beginning of the game is largely like, OK, we're getting these mysterious powers. We're figuring out like what's happening as the murders get closer to the lives of these characters. And then eventually you could go is targeted and taken away. And that's kind of the point where they all decide they're going to not only rescue her, but start kind of investigating what's happening. Yeah, I just I just want to shout out like, first of all, the rumor of the Midnight Channel is the most like you live in the suburbs rumor of all time. It's like, what else are we going to do? Turn the TV on and then it really it's like that's the whole basis of like demon school also. If you played that game recently, it's like that exact kind of rumor. Like every single person growing up has heard some version of a rumor that sounds just like the Midnight Channel rumor. It's very Bloody Mary. You know, it's like it is very bloody. But I love the idea that it's like, oh, it's the love of your life, though. It's like, you know, you're getting the like final shot of a Tokyo Mechimemorial run if you watch the TV at midnight while it's raining. But what's interesting is like in the beginning of the game, at least when you first hear about the Midnight Channel, you look at it for the first time, you see the outline of a girl and you call Yosuke and Yosuke is like, I saw the outline of a girl too. And you both like describe what you saw and you're like, oh, wow, we saw the same girl. We must have the same like we're rivals now because we have the same love of our lives. And then it's I think the next night that you realize it's sake and and like that's the moment where it's like, oh, shit, there's something going on here because she shows up dead the next day. It's like, OK, there's definitely something going on here. And like you and Yosuke and Chiye are like the only people who have any idea that the Midnight Channel not only is real, but is like not showing you the love of your life. It's not this like fun rumor, but is actually showing you who's going to die next. So the idea that Yukiko is the person who shows up right after that, especially considering she's been in such a dark place recently. And we haven't even we haven't mentioned Chiye's relationship with Yukiko, which is like this very protective relationship where like she's kind of felt like she needed to stand up for Yukiko because Yukiko doesn't tend to stand up for herself generally speaking at this point in her story, like sets everything to overdrive immediately. That's like, OK, well, you can go into the TV. We're seeing our friend in the TV. The last person we saw on the TV fucking died. We need to do something about this immediately. And that's like really what kicks off the whole experience. Yeah. And Yukiko's palace or her dungeon, rather, it's similar to how Persona Five works where like in Persona Five, every dungeon is like the palace of the warped desires of a villain. So the first palace is a character who I don't know if it's a spoiler. Basically, it's like a series of villains that see the world as theirs to control. And it basically turns the dungeon into like a place that a heist would take place. So the first dungeon is a castle. The next one's a museum. The next one's a bank, that kind of stuff. Yeah. And for the dungeons are largely you saving who will become your next party member. And their dungeon is like rooted in their either like secret desires or their fears in some way. Yeah. It's actually kind of similar. There is a dungeon in five that like flips the formula that is more like a four dungeon. But regardless, that's that's how most of them work. And so Yukiko's dungeon is she's basically a princess in a castle waiting to be saved. And when you when they see them on the midnight channel at first, it's like a foggy silhouette. And then it's like them as if they're on a TV show like, hi, everyone, like who will save me first? Like, where's my charming prince? Yeah. It's like the first episode of a reality TV show, essentially, or like a game show. Yeah, which I honestly really love that flavor. I feel like pairing like the origin myth of Japan with like a sort of retro era of TV is such an interesting choice. I think Persona has like the whole team has such a gift at like finding what things fuse well to no pun intended. Like they fuse these kind of different worlds to make something that feels so unique and stylish. Like when when our heroes go into the TV, it's it's kind of funny. They have to find a TV that's big enough for them to jump into. So in Junez, in the like the TV section of the store, there's like a gigantic widescreen TV that they can all kind of jump through. And of course, they meet our Lord and Savior, Teddy, who is a empty mascot. He's like a mascot costume of a big teddy bear that is empty inside. And he's sort of their de facto guide around the shadow world because he can like sniff out where people are. Right. Because he's been there the whole time is how he talks about it. He's like, I've always been here. I've never been anywhere else, which is which is why he's able to like tell whenever anything changes in the TV world. Because he's like, well, I know where everything is already. So if anything's different, I would know about it. Teddy is maligned for a lot of reasons. I understand those reasons. We'll talk about Teddy more, I'm sure. But I just I need to say at the top. I love Teddy so much. I am a big teddy fan. I also really like Teddy. I think I like Teddy way more than Morgana personally. Oh my God. Yeah, because I feel like they both fall into the the trope of like the horny mascot character. Right. Because Morgana, I like when they introduce them as like the cool headed leader who happens to be a cat. That works for me fully. Right. But then when they lean into like their crush on on and like all this weird stuff, I'm like, this is not what I signed up for. Right. Teddy, though, I feel like there's plenty to critique about the way Teddy treats other characters. But there's something so endearingly pathetic about him that you can't help. But at least in our case, like we both really liked him. And I think his more egregious behavior, at least in this game, maybe less so in some of the spin offs where they play that up. But in Persona 4 Gold, then I feel like a lot of his behavior is like trying to learn what it means to be human and like echoing literally what he sees on TV. Yes. Which I think is interesting, even though there's like gags that are annoying and eye rolly. I think overall, I never doubted like the character himself in his intentions. Yeah. I think that's kind of the crux of it. Right. Is like, I do think you can't excuse his behavior, obviously, you know, but like there is a certain degree of like he was just born. And as you're saying, he doesn't know how to act and what's going on really at any given period of time. Like there's there's one bit of dialogue. I remember where he's talking about how much he loves. There's a point where he starts living with the Oskei in I think like the attic above his house. So he's like helping out at Junes all the time. He's living the attic. Yeah, he's living Persona 5 of Junes instead of Cafe Leblanc. And there's a bit where he's talking about how much he loves living with the Oskei and helping out at Junes. For example, he loves that he gets to play tag all the time. And you're not playing tag. Security is chasing you out of the building. And it happens every day. Those two are just comedy gold that go so well together. Like and the voice actors are so good as those roles. Like it's just perfect. Like I love you. Oskei and Teddy is just so funny. So I think Teddy works. I mean, I feel like my favorite animal mascot is still Kormaru from three, who's like literally just a dog does not become human. My favorite like Persona comic I've seen online is it's Kormaru on like an extremely buff human body. And it just says like he says he regrets he has but one life to give against the fall. And then it cuts to like a scared cat going, you call me useless. Like it's not work. I was like, I love that. I love that dynamic. I've said this before. I'm surprised that the Fox was not the animal mascot of this game. Like Teddy is an interesting decision because it feels like maybe at one point it was the Fox. And then at some point during development, they were like, no, we need we need Teddy. The Fox feels like it maybe was like a Kormaru ask party member at one point and then becomes more of just like a way to heal and a way to do side quests. Yeah. But then yet Teddy is is the mascot. I it's also I feel like I guess in marketing is more officially the mascot of three, but I don't really consider her in the same realm because like there's a literal like animal in each game that I feel like is more comparable. But anyway, so like you meet Teddy, you meet Teddy, you go save you could go. You could go as Dungeon is this palace. Yeah. What do you think about that? By the way, you could go as Dungeon being being this like this palace like this. I I don't know if it fully matches what she's actually going through. It works in terms of explaining how dungeons work. And I think starting with a literal like Castle is very video gamey. Yeah. Right. And I do think like she feels stuck in a way that works here. I feel like her story is so much about like whether or not she inherits the in and like whether she stays in Ineba to run the Amagi in or not. Right. I feel like there's like a romantic angle to her dungeon that I don't really get in the rest of the story. You know, that's one of the things that I that I think about a lot with this because in the beginning of the game, Yukiko is painted as like she's the prettiest girl in school and everyone wants to date her and she will never give anyone the time of day and is very uninterested in the idea of dating, which I think is very interesting because I think it really stems from like the pressure that she has put upon her is you will take over the inn, you will find a husband and you will run the in together and you will continue the family legacy. And I think there is something about at least the way this is framed initially. Like if you can come save me from the castle, like I'll marry you and we'll be together forever, which I think is, you know, it's an unfortunate framing because again, she feels like she has this pressure put upon her. I think it like works in some ways, but I agree that especially and this is what I was talking about in the in the spoiler free section, like the divide between how do you tell these stories through S-Links versus how do you tell these stories to the main plot? This almost doesn't work if you don't see her S-Link all the way through as well. Yeah, right. Her S-Link does so much work to fill in the background of like why it's a castle in the first place, why she feels this way. And I do think it's interesting that the realization that should probably free her from the castle and allow her to face herself in the main plot is actually a realization that happens in like step seven or eight of of her S-Link instead. And that that's what I'm talking about, like the kind of incongruity between the between the main plot and the S-Links. Like this is actually maybe one of the best examples of that is like there there is a huge divide between what they want you to take away from her story here, which is like after this castle or after this dungeon, like she opens up and she's fun to be around and she laughs all the time and she's like open to dating and will date you, the player, versus what it's actually about, which is like societal expectations and her not feeling that she's good enough and having other things that she wants to do and not wanting to live in Ina but wanting to explore the world and all this other stuff, which I think makes her a much more interesting and well rounded character. All happens outside of like the actual part of the plot that's focused on her. Yeah, I do think it's interesting too that like, you know, we get a mini dungeon with Yo-Ske's Awakening where it's largely about like you've actually hated here and like you think you're too good for this place and all this stuff. And I really, really love the like monster design, how that flips to become their persona. Yes. So like Yo-Ske's boss is like this weird kind of creature on top of a frog. And then he becomes this like sick Digimon. Like some class. Yeah. Yeah. The big grin. There's sort of like a frog theme to his whole persona line weirdly. But I do wish Yo-Ske had a more fully fleshed out dungeon. I think that's one of the things I've been thinking about a lot. It would double the length of the game, but I think it's interesting that he and Shieh both have their awakenings like very quick on the way to Yukiko's. Although I think and this may be overly generous of me, but I do think Shieh having her awakening on like floor two of Yukiko's palace does feel like an extension of their friendship or like she will become the knight in shining. Her persona is like a samurai. So it's like cool that she becomes the knight to rescue her in the palace. Yeah, totally. I also like that. Seeing as I think their friendship feels very real to me and that like Shieh is simultaneously. Like she's the tomboy. She's like, you know, she loves kung fu movies and like steak. All these sort of, I guess, like painted as masculine activities. Right. And then Yukiko is like very feminine. Scene is very beautiful. And Shieh like loves Yukiko and and stands up for her and protects her because she knows like how many people are trying to take advantage of her and maybe like pursue her romantically or pursue her for the for the business prospect of like being in a relationship. Yeah. At the same time, like there's a piece of her that is jealous and that's like such a real thing where like, you know, in any friendship, like you will love your friend and stick up for them, but there's a piece of it's like, yeah, but fuck them for this. Like, you know, yeah, that gets to the heart of a thing that Alana brought up on that bonus that you guys did years ago, which I really, I really feel in my heart of hearts, which is like persona for feels like actual teenagers and like, I think the best social links and the best writing in this game comes from the stuff where these kids are allowed to be kids who are figuring things out versus what she described persona five as, which is like the CW television version. The 31 year old model playing a teenager, a teenager, which I really, I really feel in my heart of hearts. I love so much of that. So and I think G.A. in particular has almost the exact opposite problem that you can go has, I think, where the most interesting stuff that you get from her all does happen in the main plot. And then her S-link is like kind of kind of whatever, which we'll talk about later. Yeah, it's fine. I feel like another big change actually, which is interesting from four to four Golden is her voice actor switched. Yeah. And I only bring that up because the performance of G.A. in original four versus Golden is so different that you actually get a different sense of character altogether. Like her performance in four, the voice actor who plays G.A. in four sounds much more like relaxed and mature. And like it paints G.A. as like the one crossing her arms and rolling her eyes of the rest of the group. And in Golden, she's like, I can't wait to go outside. It's so much more like, yeah, Ryuji coded almost. Yeah, they're literally the same arcana. And I think that that's actually more accurate with the script. Like it kind of changed the way I saw it. She a because I found her to be a little bit dry, not no disrespect to the performance, but I feel like the way she was being performed was like, she is like a sort of normal girl who has like a few eccentric interests, but is otherwise like the voice of reason. And here she becomes like the excitable jock in a way that I think is actually true to what her role in the ensemble is. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I wonder in that original framing of her, how the moments where they also try to paint her as an airhead would like play out, right? If she's like feel accurate, right? That would feel really contradictory. And, you know, it still doesn't feel great. I think in this game, outside of the fact that like the times where they do that are moments where she just like says something out loud without thinking and everyone's like, oh, you're actually right. She a and she's like, oh, I don't know. I was just saying shit at random. Yeah, it's not that she's dumb. She just has no filter. And she like is a very headfirst character, which I think is great because yeah, you need that in a detective group, you know, absolutely. She also will like kind of stumble into the the right answer without thinking too much about it, which is fun. Yeah. But yeah, I think overall, I think you can go as Dungeon is is a good introduction to the gameplay at least. And her, you know, kind of officially joining the party. She's she's one of the characters to your point that feels the most real to me. Yeah, that sometimes leads her to feeling a little bit underwritten. Like I do think she's like underutilized in the rest of the game. And a lot of group scenes, it feels like the writers like, oh, yeah, have her mentioned the inn and then do her funny laugh. And that's kind of it. There are so many scenes where like that's all she does. But I do think she's got really great moments. And I think her S link and just like the moments where you're like hanging out with her that are not S links, she's like a really interesting and well rounded character. And yeah, does just feel like a normal person going through something that feels more relatable than maybe some of the other characters. Yeah, this time around, I say this time around as if I'm definitely going to replay the entire game, which I probably will. Who knows? But this time around, I decided that she was going to be the romance option that I went with because I was curious about how little I was hearing from her and other stuff. I was like, it'll be helpful to have more opportunities to like hear from Yukiko and see how she's feeling about all this stuff. And I will I'll say the romance option for Yukiko is like interesting, but also kind of dry in its own way. Yeah, it doesn't really illuminate her character very much outside of like, I'm so glad you're here and we're going to be here together. And I love you. But there are there are some nice moments here and there. Like, I think I think the like Christmas and Valentine's Day stuff in particular is really nice. But the problem with playing this game and going for the true ending, though, is that no matter who you're romancing, if you're going for the true ending on Valentine's Day, you'll have your date with whoever you're romancing. And then you will hang out with Marie anyway afterwards. Yes. And she gives you chocolate that's alive. And that is always going to be more interesting than whatever happens right before that. The man Marie hands you a bag and is like, I made you chocolate. And like his hand is shaking like he's holding a bag with a cat in it and then eats it. And it's like my stomach is moving, but the chocolate tasted really good. Like that is always going to be more interesting than anything that's happening in the actual romance they're going for, which is maybe maybe a reason to decide to romance Marie. It's similar in Persona 5, especially in Royal, where like Kasumi is like painted as like the canon option. And literally will like confess her love to you no matter what. Some of the S-Links, like most of the time, it's like you choose whether or not it's platonic or romantic, but some of them, like it feels like you have to be like actively mean to them to go the platonic route, which sucks. Like like Rize, especially, like you have to like actually be a dick to have her not become your girlfriend. I felt so bad with Rize in particular because she I mean, she is well, she's the lover's arcana. And she is really exemplifying that by like being so stoked about you all the fucking time. And I understand why people went wild for Rize, both in the game and outside of the game. Yes, because she's so nice and she's extremely well. We'll talk about her when we get to her. She's a great character. Yeah, she's an amazing character. She's an amazing character. And I understand why people wanted to go in that direction. If like that's the romance option that they choose. But I don't know. There was something about Yukiko where I was like, there is something about her quiet demeanor in particular that feels like it matches being a silent protagonist where like they're both the silent. The silent protagonist, like everyone else is like always very, very outwardly talking about who they are as a character. And these two are like either completely silent as far as we're aware or just, you know, just chilling for the most part. And I appreciate the scenes that they have together for that reason. That also kind of matches, I feel like your personal temperament where like you as evidenced by our partnership, you have a lot of theater friends and a lot of like very extroverted friends. And I think you enjoy kind of like finding a place to sit and just watch the chaos unfold. This is the weird irony about me and especially when people meet me in real life because they're like, oh, this is this is Brendan. He hosts like 800,000 podcasts and has a YouTube channel, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like me in person, I really am just chilling. Like my the thing, somebody actually at my wedding, somebody came out to me before they got in a car and drove off a family friend of ours. And she was like, you know what I like about you? I like that you don't speak unless you have something worth saying. And I was like, that's a really that's like maybe the kindest thing anybody has ever said to me before they got in an Uber and drive away. I've never heard that about me. I the the the thing I hear when like someone meets me like our mutual friends who we've like met through doing shows like this on the network and stuff, I hear some version of like, oh, so you're just like this. You're exactly the same. Yeah. And our friend Kim, I remember, I think our friend Matt, who I've already plugged his video, we've become very close, which has been great. But Matt, when we first started hanging out, was like, oh, you're just like this. And then our friend Kim went, he's actually more like this off the show. Like, he's like more normal on the show than he is in real life, which I thought was flattering in its own way. But yeah, I actually went for Yukiko. I went with the Yukiko romance the first time I played and I went Rize this time specifically to avoid having to be mean to her because I knew that was coming. And the Rize romance is great. You also don't learn anything profoundly new. But I think kind of like how Yukiko pairs well with the protagonist because they're both like quiet, but sort of like powerful. They have a quiet, but powerful presence. Yeah. You Rize and the main character both have main character energy. It's like when they're together, it's like the ultimate power couple. Like it's it's great. Yeah. And there's a sadness because like you don't you get the feeling with Rize. Again, we'll talk about her more later, but like it's probably not going to last. Like she's just so busy that like this will probably be like the last time you get to spend a lot of time together. And that just feels like a very real like end of high school relationship, right? Where it's like you make all these plans to stay in touch in college or whatever. But it's like it will probably fizzle out and that's OK. You can enjoy the present, you know? I'm curious what the other relationships look like. We'll talk more about that as we get further in. But yeah, I think this is like, you know, this kind of marks the 10 to 12 hour period we were talking about before. We're like, yes, I think most people would say the game gets good, you know, in the thick of the first dungeon because you get a sense of like what the loop is. And basically the loop is like, what do you want to do today? And you have a deadline for the dungeon. So there's sort of this like fun stress of like planning to get the dungeon done as quickly as possible so you can then just focus on upgrading your S-Links, upgrading your social stats and just existing in this place. Yeah, I do. I do think like even by the time you're done with Yuki Ko's dungeon, they're still introducing new systems to you in this game. So there is a sense that like you're still on the tutorial on ramp. And the thing that I would I would say to people, I mean, you're already in the spoiler sections, you probably know this, but like the thing that I always feel about these games is like you're never off of the tutorial on ramp with these games really until they're over. Yeah, in some ways, like every persona game is a tutorial for the next persona game. You're going to play really more than anything else. But I do think when you're done with this dungeon is when the game really feels like, especially depending on how quickly you do the dungeon after they give you the deadline. Like it's when you really get to exhale. And as you were saying, like you start to explore in a bun, start to like figure out what your routine is going to be and what things do you really care about. And I think we didn't mention this at all, actually in the spoiler free section. But I am curious about your feeling about the like progress gating in this game, specifically with like getting to the golden content and and how you like need to do certain things that aren't maybe super telegraphed to see the whole game. Yeah, this is I think persona has a reputation of sort of hiding major mechanics. Like I think once you know all the systems, it's not an especially complicated game. I actually think it's fairly simple, but you're it's not intuitive and you're not going to know what's important or why. And I didn't really know fully how to play until I finished five, even though like I loved the game. Like I got to the end and I was like, oh, I just went to sleep for like a week. And I'm like, why did I do that? Time is so precious. So like the only person who wanted to talk to me at the end was Ryuji, because he was like the one person I maxed out, which was honestly hilarious. But anyway, there are things you have to do that the game doesn't tell you you have to do to unlock the extra golden content at the end. And even in the original game, there's a whole there are two dungeons that you won't get unless you like properly deduce who the culprit is and then also do very like esoteric things. Yeah, on top of that, there are just some like this is the easiest game to just miss. Like I finished this game twice and there are a few S links that I've just never found organically. I've gone back and watched the ones I've missed, but like I've also never caught a bug. I've just like never known how to find the bug net, even though I know it exists. And I also got very late. The bug net thing drives me up a wall. I don't know what it is about the bug. OK, so let me just explain the bug net thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, so first of all, you get that you get the fishing rod pretty early in the game if you know where to get it. You can you can also get a book that's like that teaches you about fishing. And then you're off to the races. All you have to do is go to go to the liquor store at night and they'll give you breadcrumbs that you can use to go fishing. And the fishing mini game is like fun and good. Once you have unlocked the fishing rod and have caught some fish, specifically some red goldfish, there is a character in the shrine who is there from basically the beginning of the game is this little kid who's like, I lost my bug net. I don't know where it is around the corner from that kid is another kid who will tell you that there's a rumor about the shrine that at night there's like a ghost who shows up near the shrine. It's like it's like the ghost of a woman who died. So you're basically given all the information you need. There's a bug net somewhere in the shrine. And if I show up at night, there will be a ghost of a woman or probably realistically like just a woman who's there. That kid's think as a ghost who will probably give me the bug net or access to the bug net. I never found it the first time I played the game. I never found it the second time I tried to play in the game. I always knew exactly what to do and where to go. So this time around, I was like, I'm going to get the bug net and I googled it. I was just like, how do I do this? Like, where do I go to get the bug net? And I found a bunch of red at threads that were like, just go every night and eventually she'll show up after you've talked to the kid and stuff. She'll show up and you got to give her red goldfish and then she'll give you the bug net in return. Great. I did not see her. I went to the shrine basically every night throughout the entire play through of this game, Stephen. All 60 whatever hours of play. I went to the shrine basically every single night. She did not show up until January, which is like the optional like extra month. I am in the golden section of the video game and she shows up and is like, do you want to bug net? And then at that point, I was like, there's no way I'm finishing the Fox S link because the Fox S link is like literally can you do Sega bass fishing? Legend of the River King, like catch the most rare thing in the entire game by first catching the rarest bug and then using that as bait to catch the rarest fish and then give it to the Fox and that's how you max out the Fox's S link. Like there's no world in which that was going to happen. While I was also trying to max out like some of my party members S links and get their third forms, I was like, I am not going to prioritize finally catching a bug for the first time in January over getting Kanji's third form for his persona. Right. Right. There's no world in which that's going to happen. And I'm sure we'll talk about this later. It is my number one thing. I hope they change about the remake. Like the number one thing is I want a story plot beat that hands me the fishing rod and hands me the bug net to get to, I guess, the, oh, my question that I asked you. I love so much about the esoterica of this game. Yes. It feels built at, I mean, it was built at a time where yes, the internet is popping up and people like have obviously cell phones and are texting each other and stuff like that. But there is still a sense in 2008 that games are being built with the expectation that you will go find somebody else in real life who you know in real life and you will have conversations about what you experienced and how you experienced it and how to find things and you'll be theorizing out loud and going back home and then playing for yourself and seeing what you can find and what you can discover and using that information to illuminate your journey. That's really cool. That is very different from the way games are played now where like things are expected to just appear online immediately in a guide and you go look it up and you could just have like every answer immediately. There is something so great about the fact that like you will not get the bug net until January if you don't know the exact ways of doing it on the flip side. That in particular is not a piece of the story or is not a piece of the game that should be gated in that way. I love the fact that so much of this game actually is gated in that way. And this is a complete 180 from how I used to feel about this game. But now that I've finished it, I actually love the experience that like you need to answer six questions very precisely to be able to move on to the golden stuff in this game. Like I think that that's very interesting. It's an extremely off-putting design choice that makes it very hostile to the player unless they are playing the game carefully, making a lot of like making sure that they're using a lot of different save states and again like having conversations and being intentional about their experience in this life in Inaba. I think that that actually does serve the plot. What does not serve the plot is the ghost lady will show up at the shrine at random at some point throughout your playthrough. I'm totally with you. Like I think the the esoteric requirements for the final dungeon and the golden epilogue and and pretty much all the story and eslink stuff feels like it is following the tradition of like a Famicom Detective Club or something where like I think obviously one of the main influences on this game is like the rich history of like murder investigation visual novels and adventure games. Yeah. And it's clearly pulling from that. And it's also just in the theme of the game or like like for example when I played Persona 4 on PS2 for the first time, I missed the secret final dungeon and I didn't even know it existed at that time and I felt like I truly saw through the whole game. Like yeah, there wasn't a piece of me that felt like oh man, I blew it and I missed the like it was still a happy ending. There was like maybe one or two lines where someone's like I guess we never figured out the mystery of the midnight channel but what a summer. You know, it's like something like that. The TV world is still foggy but that's fine. Yeah. Overall like a very satisfying conclusion and I think it is really cool that like again thinking about how this is built to be replayed. Like I can't imagine how cool it would have been to play this game and then replay and on a whim just do something a little bit differently and be like oh my god, there's a whole other dungeon. There's 30 more hours in this video game that I didn't get to experience. Yeah. But I agree. I think where it loses me is basically all the side quests is where it gets to like every side quest is annoying and not fun to do. Literally every single one that is not just like somebody standing in the school quizzing you. Those are the only ones where I'm like that's fine. Love the quiz and I love the ones where it's like can you go back to this dungeon and get me this material because one like there isn't like a Tartarus or Mementos equivalent in this game where like both three and five have like a never-ending dungeon you can kind of grind in. Well not never-ending but seemingly infinite dungeon where you can grind in addition to the more authored like in three it's the full moon bosses that are kind of like the story dungeons and in five it's the palaces and four it's just the character based dungeons but you can revisit old ones and fight like an optional boss to get like a cool weapon. So like I think the side quest that exists that kind of encourage you to do that is interesting but a lot of them are just like I don't like there's I already have so much on my plate I'm not going to go out of my way to help a nameless faceless NPC. Like I need to increase my bravery to talk to someone in my party. I'm not going to waste my time with you. That was also my experience. I did almost none of the side quests in this game like really almost none of them. I just I found so many of them to be so esoteric that I was like I don't want to do it or it was the alternative where they were like you can go back into a dungeon and do this and I just I never really felt compelled to do that because usually the reward for doing so you know outside of like finishing those side quests which usually the rewards for those aren't great either but like the reward is like you go fight that boss at the end and they give you a weapon that's good for you know the character whose dungeon it was initially. So frequently you're getting better weapons than that like almost immediately afterwards like as soon as you go to the next dungeon and then you sell a bunch of stuff to the blacksmith in town he will have a better weapon than the one you maybe just got from the dungeon that you've replayed. So like I just I never really found that compelling. I did it for I think kanji which is the next one we're going to talk about. I did it for kanji because I didn't know that mechanic was there. I'd never seen that before. It just hadn't occurred to me to even try doing that on any of the previous times I tried to play in this game. So I was like oh that's cool that I could do that. So I took a day out of my calendar. I went through the entire kanji thing fought the boss got the thing for kanji and then it was like I think maybe the next dungeon or right after that where I got like a much better weapon for kanji that I was like why waste a day on this when I couldn't done this link yet. Two quick things I love the weapon merchant in town. He's an artist who is like a metal smith. He's like the guy in iron giant that makes like weird metal sculptures in his backyard. I love him. He's great. I love the music that plays when you're talking to merchants like one of my favorite merchant themes and I really like how kanji's weapon for a lot of the game is just the chair like he just has like a wwe fold up chair that he smacks at one point you can give him a whole desk from the high school. Yeah when I knew I was in love with this game was just seeing the protagonist run around with the golf club in one of the dungeons and I was like this fucking rules. Like I love this game so much. Like I think three is also great but I like how for the lighter tone it also doesn't take itself quite as seriously. Yeah. I think that goes a long way with like the weapons being like a desk or a chair or a golf club. I just like love that sort of almost like earthbound aske touch to the to the combat. Earthbound is a game that I was thinking about a lot actually while playing this game because it that feels like the like proto proto prototype for a game like this. Right. Earthbound obviously is significantly sillier and it like you know it is like even more so like fantastical sci-fi experience but you and I have talked so much about like the lack of games that are set in just like normal places you know so many RPGs in particular in turn based RPGs is what we're talking about are set in like fantasy worlds or sci-fi worlds or whatever and the list of games that are taking place in like normal places is very thin. This is like the most normal place ever in a video game like even you know even like Tokyo's Anidu and the upcoming Kyoto's Anidu like those games maybe are the closest you get to a place like this but it's like Persona 3 and 4 are really like this is just a normal town that you would visit like on a road trip. You'd stop over to get gas for a minute and then keep driving. There's an undercurrent to that the other world is sort of like there's it's like in many cases in Persona games the other world is directly explained and like given like in 3 they kind of go further than 4 and 5 do and explaining like what led to this other world and what shadows are and 4 and 5 it's a little bit more tied to just like oh this is like a world connected to ours that's informed by our collective subconscious basically. Yeah. But I feel like the fact that the ensembles are almost always like a group of teenagers it just sort of feels like this is a world that like only they can see like it's like this is like a strange kind of secret they have from everybody else which I think is kind of fun. It reminds me of like the appeal of something like Digimon where it's like there's this world that like you can only see in this era of your life kind of thing. Yeah like the Minish in Minish. Yeah exactly which I think adds to this level of like reality where it's like even the fantasy piece is sort of like kind of a concept from reality like it's not like fully real even though it has it has matrix rules like if you die there you die for real like it's still like a reflection it's it reminds me a lot of what I love about the best Spider-Man stories where it's like the superhero stuff works best when it's a reflection of a real relationship Peter has with someone else or or any of the spider people. Yes street level baby. Exactly but yeah I think Earthbound is an interesting comparison to make because that the whole like origin point of the mother series is like what if Dragon Quest was just in the suburbs. Yeah right. And and how weird can we get with that. Anyway shall we move on to the next dungeon. Yeah let's maybe take a break and then come back we'll talk about Kanji and Rize and I think I think the rest will be a little bit faster because there's a lot of setup we have to do with Yukiko's but I think we'll kind of I imagine it will be kind of more character centric as we go through the rest. Famous last words Steven. What year is it anyway now just dungeons all right next. We're back with with a big one. It's time for a big one. Yeah it's Kanji time. It's Kanji time. It's always Kanji time. I will say this at the top I love Kanji. I think Kanji is one of the best characters in this series. We will get into how the game treats him but I just think like as a character he's easily one of my favorites. I'm not sure how you feel about Kanji though. I love him he's so fun. He's great. He's so fun basically like every line of dialogue he has is gold and talk about people who play well off Teddy also. Oh yeah I love how he calls him Ted. I love how he looks 30 and is 14 and I love how there's one line he has so Troy Baker plays him in the English voice cast which I listen to and it's a great performance. There's a line where there's like a weird festival happening in school and you end up making like a like speed dating thing. Yeah and Kanji sits down and there's like a brief pause where like no one else is there and it's just the four of you. He just goes uh what the hell is this. It's like such a beavis and butthead moment like I just love how blunt he is and that's cool festival arc is so funny by the way. It's it's one of my favorite parts of the game and that's actually where like those moments of like those kind of group scenes are where you see how dynamic the script is to like who you're dating and what your relationship level is with everyone because there's a lot of different versions of those scenes which is really cool. It just shows you like sometimes it feels like like in games where the way a character feels about you is dynamic to the player's actions. It can sometimes make the group scenes feel like they're in another reality and it usually lends to this feeling of like everyone is in love with the main character by defaults so it can always make sense. I feel like Mass Effect and this game are two of the better examples of like oh it actually feels dynamic to how you're playing largely. Yeah it's kind of like it's doing the the Chrono Trigger magic trick uh in the background but it never really has a moment where it's revealing itself because if it were revealed itself that would like show too much of its hand in some ways. Everyone is still in love with you as Commander Shepard and you anyway but it largely works. Yeah but uh yeah so Kanji his whole thing is like he's a bully that fights other bullies like he's a rebel with a heart of golds but he's getting in a lot of trouble and like you know he dies his hair blonde he's got all these tattoos he's a tattoo of just a skull and crossbones which is so funny and it's like definitely temporary and he's wearing this like you know jacket over his shoulder his fights with the chair and the thing with Kanji's character is that when he's introduced it's as this like kid everyone is scared of right because he's so tough. Local roughy and part of a biker gang etc. And then the game quickly reveals that like in addition to all this he's also clearly struggling with his perception of masculinity and also exploring his own sexuality so it's like abundantly clear that he is reckoning with his attraction to men or to just like you know he's having a sexual awakening and he's also like internalizing like does this make me less of a man to be attracted to people to masculine people. Yeah this is an interesting thing because I think this is like a deviation between the read that everybody basically everybody has of of his arc verse I think what was the intended goal of his arc because I feel like the intention behind this writing is like a very classic at least in 2008 and before idea of like you know it is another thing that I think gets better illuminated if you experience his s-link you know but like he's into like crocheting and knitting and things that at least are painted societally as more like feminine hobbies. Right it's like a flip on Chiye's interests and stuff. Yes and because of that he thinks of himself as like less manly and because of some of the other things that happen especially like with his father and stuff like that like he has this kind of warped feeling about himself and who he is supposed to be as like the quote-unquote man of the house etc etc and I think that's like that's what they were trying to go for right and like you know you and I grew up in we were born in the 90s and uh were you know kids at the time that this game came out as well like we were in a New Jersey suburb and high school. Yeah we were the age of the characters like when this came out basically. Exactly and like I'm not gonna lie and say that there weren't moments where like people were calling each other gay pejoratively all the time because of like crossing their legs when sitting down or something like really like dumb menial shit like that was pointing people in the direction of like also it's worth mentioning our town that we grew up in deeply conservative as well. Yeah yeah that was the thing that was happening all the time and I actually think that that's what they were trying to go for in the writing of Kanji's script in this way is like that kind of pressure because I see basically every character as a way of like succumbing to societal pressure and then realizing who they are in spite of that and despite that. Yes. And I think that that's what they were trying to accomplish with Kanji's writing and what actually happens like via the text and via again most people's reading is like he is as you were saying like having this sexual awakening is clearly having instances where he's like attracted to men and is curious about how that's going to impact him and again how of all of that folds into what they were intending to write which is like how does that affect his masculinity in a society where like again like it's just him and his mom running this textile shop like he is supposed to be the man of the house what does it mean for him to be attracted to men as well in 2008. Yeah and it's tricky talking about Kanji I mean we're approaching 20 years of discourse on Kanji so I truly don't know if I can say anything new about this I think we'll include a bunch of writing from queer writers about like there's a lot of great writing about both Naoto and Kanji from a lot of great writers. I'll once again also point people to Matt Horton's channel Flow State on his Patreon he has a video specifically about like the queerness of Persona 4 and it was interesting to hear his perspective because I think a lot of people like heavily warn other people about this game like hey it's like deeply homophobic all this stuff and yeah it's simultaneously like better and worse than you would expect given those warnings right you know like it's it's weird I think this is an old enough game that like even the reception of a character like Kanji has changed over time because it's worth considering I mean you mentioned this already but like as bleak as shit is now I'm not gonna act like things are are good now in terms of like how society treats queer people but I do think that like in my lifetime I can't think of a more homophobic era than the late 2000s where like you said there was just sort of an at least for our age group there was like an unquestioned use of the word gay as like a universal negative right and I think for a game like this to come out in the thick of that and also be I mean I don't know I would imagine there are plenty of games that predate Persona 4 that cover queer themes and like sexual awakenings like this but I can't think of one that would be as mainstream as this that was coming out in this time so I think for a lot of people seeing a character like Kanji if you played this in 2008 and you were like a young or regardless of age if you like played a game you're like oh my god I'm playing a 2008 RPG that is like asking these questions at all yeah I think a lot of people felt really seen by that I think by more modern standards it's easier to like kind of pick apart but it's also now been so long that it's almost lubed back and like you know what I'm glad they tried like I'm just like I'm glad there was like an effort at all yeah even though they kind of shoot themselves in the foot because I think like as much as I think Atlas has gotten better and how it treats its characters it's telling that like in metaphor there is almost no talk of sex or sexuality right like it just like doesn't exist in that world in a way that makes me feel like are they just scared to even try you know to have these conversations but I think with Kanji I think you're right I think that his excellent especially is less about his sexuality and more about how he's perceived as masculine right and actually think his S-link is awesome I think it's easily the best a best of the of the playable cast he's just so fucking cool and ironically it is like extremely punk of him to be into like making stuff and like sewing and like repairing his jacket like a totally very like you know it fits into his aesthetic perfectly and I love like I mean it's great like there's a moment in his S-link where he basically this kid loses his doll and he makes a doll for him and it's like as the game says it's very elaborate he has like accessories and like a top hat and like a soccer ball and the kid loves it and then Nanako your cousin I love Nanako just walks around town like she's in charge I just love like it's such like a little kid thing like and she just speaks her mind in a way little kids do but Kanji is like terrified of telling Nanako that he made these because he doesn't want her to think he's like creepy or weird or effeminate and she's just like that's so cool teach me how to make them like I think you're cool for making this like almost everyone tells him that and it's something he's kind of like he's had some experience where people judged him for pursuing these things that he has to get over and it's just like a very sweet and simple story I think where the game is like explicitly about his sexuality is in the main story and his dungeon yeah where like when you first see Kanji he's he clearly has a crush on Naoto who at this time of the game everyone believes to be male to be a boy they're at least like passing as masculine and Kanji is like talking to them and wondering how he feels about Naoto and then his dungeon is a bath house full of like half naked muscular men and his shadow self is like a very stereotypically like a feminine seemingly gay character yeah and so I think I'll paraphrase Matt a little bit where like I talked to Matt a lot about this game and I was curious like what he felt about this section and Matt was like and I agree with this and that was just like I don't like need Kanji to be gay I just need the game to like make up its mind like what the story is about and I think like playing it again I think there's plenty to critique in terms of like the stereotypical elements but I think the biggest misstep with Kanji's story is just like them not saying what it's about you know like I think it's fine like I don't think the world is yearning for a story about like a bi-curious person who realizes they're straight but like that would be a better story than what we get because like it just ends with like oh I'm actually just nervous around girls and that's it right rather than like because again it's like I think you know even though like I joke about that like that is something people go through people like think oh am I attracted to this kind of person or this kind of person then they realize maybe they're not or maybe they realize like oh it's a spectrum and I don't need to be boxed into one thing yeah I think you know it would be great representation to have like an openly canonically gay persona character but I think the issue is not whether or not Kanji's gay I think the issue is like the script of the game feeling like it gets halfway there and then cutting it off right in some cases literally where I think it's worth bringing up now like there is literally cut content in this game of a romance with Yosuke there's recorded lines of dialogue where Yosuke tells the main character that he likes him yeah and you know it's it's still like relatively ambiguous but it's very clearly romantic or at least like alluding to like a more intimate connection um and it's telling that that scene was cut and replaced with a scene where they fight instead yes it's like you can feel the seams of the minute he's like don't make me say it let's fight and then you fight instead of having a romance yeah when I when I say this game is messy like this is the exact kind of stuff that I'm talking about because again you know if you want to give like an inch of the benefit of the doubt to the writing team behind it like again they were under a time crunch to make this game um so there's a lot of stuff that like doesn't come together but it really does come at the expense of both like actually committing to what they're trying to comment on societally and also doing these characters justice and I think Yosuke in my opinion is is I think probably gets hit the hardest by this like sure I think I think what they did with Yosuke in particular is like one of the only things about this game that like made me like legitimately upset yeah I was really like bummed out by the experience of like even finishing his s-link and getting to like the let's fight scene but just kind of like realizing I think what they were all like leading towards because there are like eight different strands of interesting ideas in his s-link and none of them are explored fully it all ends with him being like it turns out I was just jealous of you so we should fight which is really a bummer and in Kanji's case I feel similarly where it's like they don't commit to really anything and in fact they use the s-link in some ways as a way of like even diffusing further what they started exploring in the main story right like I like his s-link I think his s-link is great I think it's really well written I think it's I think it's exploring an interesting idea I think it's done well but it is like taken as a whole a way of walking back even further away from the idea of him having any potential like spectrum of queerness within him and I find that to be like even more damning in some ways than what they did in that dungeon you know what I mean yeah exactly and I think there's also a case we made that he doesn't like need to say to the camera I'm gay for us to get it like I do think there's a way to maybe subtly do that and like you know not everyone has that kind of like clear cut coming out moment in real life so like I think there's a way to have it be subtle but still like clear to the player it makes me think like the cut yosuke romance the walking back of kanji's story and elements of nato's story as well I can't help but then this is just a guess I don't know what happened here and we probably never will I don't think anyone's gonna be like here's the real story behind the script yeah we're working at a company the size of atlas under a company the size of sega right in 2008 and hearing you know stories from artists and writers at places like Pixar under Disney where like you often hear these artists and writers saying like we wanted to include a more explicitly queer story in this movie but disney said no in fear of box office performance right that happens all the time and I can't help but imagine a version of that happened here where it feels like there was a genuine interest in telling these stories and either like you said maybe they didn't have the time or like the the energy to like see it through or maybe there was external pressure to remove it or to make it more ambiguous I mean I think the fact that that was cut kind of feels more like evidence of this than anything else but I also don't know yeah this is just a guess based on what we got and regardless of the truth behind you know the that element of it there is a thing that's always like niggling in the back of my head about this what this franchise is supposed to represent right like we talk about this franchise and you even use the word like this is supposed to be like almost revolutionary in some ways like this franchise is supposed to be you know a rebuttal against societal norms uh especially like Japanese societal norms like we talked in previous episodes about like how explicitly Japanese these games are in terms of the ways they're talking about and handling society and yes many of the themes do have broad appeal globally but so much like literally the mythology of this game being about the mythology of the creation of Japan and like how Japan has existed for the entire time and maybe what it can be in the future like that's kind of the core of what a lot of this game is exploring there should have been or maybe there's a better way of putting this but the actual way to commit to that idea if that's what the franchise is supposed to be about is to look this stuff head on and take a clear stance on it and it never does and in fact when it when it tries to introduce characters who are openly queer they're explicitly played for laughs like every single time across the board I think the most egregious thing with Kanji is also just how he's treated after this yes and I think we're all tired of the trope of like oh the homophobe is secretly gay and that's damaging in its own way but I think it does make more sense the way yosuke acts towards kanji if his story ends with him realizing he's attracted to the protagonist yeah like it doesn't make it good but it makes it better yeah in some ways be like once kanji like there's this you know moment where he's okay like I'm gonna accept who I really am and then there are so many group scenes where like he'll get a nosebleed when the protagonist is topless and the group will make fun of him or like fear him when they're alone together and it just sucks and that's I think that's why I like his S-length so much is because it feels like it respects him as a character way more yeah and like is in spite of how that happens and and look it's like if we want to be abundantly generous we can be like what an authentic view of teenagers in 2008 like that's actually that's the kindest you can be to this that's really is the kindest and that's kind of what I was leading at in the beginning is like there is there is a very generous read of this that is like in 2008 this is I mean I was what uh 16 at the time like this is what it was like to be 16 in 2008 definitely to a certain degree yeah for better and for worse yeah um and I think like overall I think the game's theme of acceptance and love rings louder than this stuff but it stands out all the more for it and is the obvious question on everyone's mind with this upcoming remake of like what are they doing with this yeah you know right like if I had to guess now I would say based on how they've handled similar misguided scenes of in three and in five like they've changed or removed those elements for a rerelease and I imagine the same will be true of here I think there's the potential that they will like look I'm not I don't want to uh even if I don't like something I rarely say like rewrite this thing that exists I think part of like analysis and critical thought is like responding to what it is for better and for worse and not demanding it be changed but if you're remaking something I think there's an opportunity to do right by these characters in what was clearly at least mostly intended by the original work yeah you know right like so I think you know I don't expect I don't expect them to do a lot but I think there's like even a slight rewording of like Matt brought up like you can change one line in Kanji's dungeon to kind of fix most of the issues you know yeah because I think there there's another version of this conversation where people are like you should change Kanji's dungeon entirely yeah and I feel like once you do that you do remove a huge a huge piece of who he is as a character yeah and I don't think you need to I the dungeon certainly has its own issues but I don't think that's the egregious part of it really like I think when we're talking about like the 10 years of discourse that have happened around this game like that that was the discourse for a long time like it really did start and end with like his dungeon shouldn't be that if they're if they're not gonna if they're not gonna you know end it with him being queer in any way shape or form right but we're at woke to now folks that really reset my brain I'm fully rewired but yeah Kanji despite all of that I think he remains a really great character he's so lovable and like you know I also think and this something we talked a lot about in our Yakuza Zero bonus with our friend Eric Morrison about the power of headcanon as well and like yeah how sort of so much of the Yakuza fandom is queer and does you know think of these characters like in relationships despite what the game says and there's power to that too I just wish we lived in a world where it wasn't like on reliant on headcanon to have any kind of representation right you know yes exactly all the representation shouldn't exist in tags on a03 it should be in the text yes right exactly but yeah I think Kanji joined the team like he rounds out the ensemble really well like you said like he's got great comedic timing and like he's just a good dude and like my party the first time I played was largely you could go Teddy and Kanji and he he remained like a me I love the sort of like he plays like Ryuji does where it's like massive damage to a single target and electric elements yeah he's great I think one thing that's worth mentioning also from a plot perspective when I talk about how the the cast is like basically stuck on one idea until now it shows up up until Kanji's dungeon the going theory is that there is a murderer killing women in Inaba and then and then Kanji shows up and they're like oh it's people who have appeared on television and that's the thing and at no point which I find interesting at no point is anyone in the party like we just have to be watching TV at all times and write down the names of every single person because like as soon as you come up with the idea that it's whoever has been on television then you are entering this situation where you need to like see who's on TV at all times which is a little rough but Kanji is kind of the turning point for them and this unfortunately is the sticking point that they have until now it shows up and is like I have other ideas about how we can explore this beyond just assuming who was on TV at one point or another which is very funny this is also when the family unit starts to form at home yeah we have not really talked about Dojima or Nanako at all yet but we definitely should yeah so Dojima is sort of connected because he's a he's a detective so he's literally like trying to figure out this case and he's the lead detective on the on the case yeah initially you're basically keeping a secret like how would you explain to him like we can go into TVs and you know fight our repressed cells like he wouldn't understand so you're largely keeping him in the dark it is kind of up to the player how much you trust him though which I think is pretty cool like yeah that does like affect certain things but he's almost never home so Nanako is I think the way they write Nanako is really smart because I think there's a weaker script where she's just like sad all the time at home and I love how just like resilient she is like I feel like that's actually more accurate to how kids sometimes behave or like they just sort of like she's at an age where she realizes like she has to kind of be like the caretaker of the house right she shouldn't have to but she does step up right exactly exactly right and so he's always working and she's like kind of like she's very confident but she's kind of like aloof and around this point in the game your friend group start inviting her out more like you start hanging out together it's the most heartwarming stuff in a video game like truly it's so good like that sounds hyperbolic but I really mean it it's like at any time they're like Nanako do you want to come with us and they all like go sit at Junes which is Nanako's favorite place the entire world or you know invite her to the park or the beach or whatever it's like tears in the eyes you're being so nice to this little girl who really needs it kind of stuff every single time it's also great like I don't know like how old the voice actor is but like it's a really like real performance like it feels like a real kid because sometimes I've noticed in games sometimes kids are voiced like clearly by the same voice actor who plays an older version it's going like oh hi it's like oh yeah I love that happens a lot in games and I should mention I played this game mostly with the Japanese voice cast I did switch actually for Kanji's dungeon specifically to the English voice cast just because I wanted to experience the English voice cast for like one bit but then I switched back to Japanese for the rest and Nanako's voice acting in the Japanese is also fantastic especially when she's singing the Junes song it's so nice Persona overall has had really good voice acting in a time where that wasn't a guarantee especially for the English cast like you know the first uh I mean at least in Persona 3 which is 2006 like we're not like it's starting to become more of an expectation but not a guarantee at that point anyway I think yeah Nanako is like starting to warm up to you and she thinks of you as her big brother and she also kind of rely like everyone in your friend group and that's kind of where I think I mentioned before how like the message of like love and acceptance rings louder like this crew will like there's an S-link later on that I'm sure we'll talk about where it's a kid's a kid that they don't know it's his birthday yeah and at the drop of a hat they all show up like to celebrate his birthday to cheer him up I got absolutely bodied by that scene yeah it's so nice it just shows you like this this this crew like really really deeply loves each other and like also just inherently like thinks the best of other people until they're proven otherwise like by default you are welcome and accepted outside of the scenes we mentioned with Kanji but like that again it's why they stand out so much yeah but anyway there is one scene where everyone tries to decide if they're gonna kill a guy or not but besides that for the most part everyone's like no there's gotta be another path here well that's that's someone they all believe to be the culprit at the time which no I know but that's what I'm saying it's like the one moment where they do not assume the best in somebody at all they're like he's definitely a murderer and we should kill him in response yeah like their faces all change at the drop of the hat if you're either doubting yourself or a murderer those are the only two ways to piss off this crew yeah but Nanako is is warming up to the protagonist and Dojima is also like very grateful that because I think he recognizes that he's not there for Nanako yeah and part of that is not his fault and part of it is because I think honestly one of the best S-Links is Dojima's because he's sort of confides like he's your uncle but he kind of talks to you as if you're like a younger brother more so yeah yeah and he's just like I think I'm actually because you know they he lost his wife Nanako's mother and like is intimidated at the idea of raising her by himself so his answer that is kind of just like not raising her like he's sort of knowingly or not just like not being home and he realizes that he's like running from his problems and also like Nanako reminds him of his wife and he's like not over her death yet so yeah he's like constantly investigating the circumstances of her death she got hit by a car it was like a hit and run at the flood plain yeah it's like also a place that he doesn't go very often if at all yeah there's there's a lot going on with him that's that's interesting but yeah this idea that like he's both intimidated by the idea of being her father but also feels like he's not good enough to do it alone and then as you're saying that manifests as him just like choosing to not do it is happening on one hand on the other hand like he is actually an extremely busy person which is right right he has excuses yeah excuse and I think that's what makes it such a well-rounded characterization of this guy because like right there is an aspect of it where he definitely knows that he's not doing enough but he is not putting in the effort to like have anybody cover for him or like come home early or like even do his work at home which he starts doing later in the s-link which is like I think that almost goes unsaid but like there are parts later in the s-link and later in the story where he starts bringing case files home and will like look through them while on the couch with Nanako which is like that's that's where kind of you have these like beautiful persona moments of like very subtle character work that's happening that like is kind of going unsaid even that was a moment where I was like okay he's learning something here and that's that's a positive yeah I I love Dojima and I love how whenever you you like start his s-link he's like are you that bored? I love that he's like such a dad move. Also we haven't mentioned how funny the fridge is like you can eventually like make lunch also the game totally roasts you if you make a bad lunch I remember I made lunch for me in Yosuke and it was like you know mystery food X core and he was like what is this like like no no levels gained at all but there's just like stuff in the fridge like leftover food and like weird items that it can raise your bravery but make you sick if you eat it yeah it's the last thing you do that day is you eat food from the fridge because it's so disgusting you just pass out immediately that it is my favorite bit of slapstick humor in this game that whenever anyone eats bad food they just pass out and wake up hours later it's like the mystery food X bit like the whole running gag Atlas has where it's like you know like oh all these pretty girls are so bad at cooking isn't that funny like it feels a little sexist totally but the animation of eating mystery food X and seeing the protagonist go and just pass out genuinely really funny really funny and you know it is it is funny like I feel like I always think of the Seinfeld episode where like in the last season they reveal Elaine is terrible at dancing and like oh yeah so bad it's like ruined parts of her life yeah I love the like third act reveal that like this character who is like otherwise very capable is extremely bad at one thing anyway um I think what's interesting is like the family unit is starting to form here they're no longer like just distant relatives you happen to be living with they're becoming because especially like we don't really know as the player we know nothing about the protagonist's core immediate family yeah so for us this is our immediate family while we're playing the game you know they are they are a family in this moment um it's also when Dojima starts to be like oh one two okay why are all your friends victims in this case like the minute Kanji starting out he's like can I talk to you for a second like why is everyone you're hanging out with like the person who was almost killed uh and I think he starts to there's this tension of like he's getting a little bit too close to your other life which is really fun it's very similar to how it works with Sojero in five or like you're also kind of keeping it a secret from him the whole time and it's a similar I feel like with Sojero I read him more as like this is adult Joker in some ways like it's sort of like if adult Joker if Joker gave up now and grew up he'd be like a cool charming guy with a coffee store largely by himself right and I feel like it's sort of like Sojero is inspired to go back to his sort of like youthful rebellious self through Joker's efforts um but yeah I like I like this sort of tension of like oh I'm getting to really like know and love Nanako and Dojima but they're starting to like get too close to the truth yeah there's like an L and light Yagami thing going on here yes it's like the platonic familial version of that yeah yeah yeah it's it's very interesting um I also just should mention like in the background of all of this is Adachi who is Dojima's partner on the on the case yes who is this like almost I don't know how would you even describe Adachi I'm trying to come over the words for it like this part of the game version of Adachi at least yeah at this part of the game Adachi is like the bumbling sidekick of Dojima he's he's in his late 20s yeah he's like a young guy but like is starting to become sort of disillusioned by life he's also a guy who moved from the big city yeah and Persona for Golden adds a S-link for him so like you get a stronger sense of his dissatisfaction with Inaba through the S-link right and yeah he's he's kind of comic relief but he's just sort of like there like you probably wouldn't think twice about him for most of the game right at this point which is the point which is the point never trust a man under 40 in Persona oh that's all I'll say for now above 18 yeah that's right that's right never trust a adult man younger than 40 yeah anyway shall I move on to the next it's Risae Risae Risae's here I love Risae I think it's the biggest surprise of the game given Atlas's history that like the idol is one of the better written characters you know like I feel like there's certainly like gazey elements of Risae's character in her story but it does feel like it's being interrogated in a way that is like interesting and part of her journey totally yeah yeah there's a version of this as way worse you know especially like the opening scene of the video game is like Risae in a bikini showing you a soda that she's like in an ad for right and like her whole storyline could just be like aren't I hot and cute and cool and like that's the whole thing and like yeah boys love me and I want to be with every every single one of them like that could have been the whole video game but instead the story is like she moves to Inaba or back to Inaba because she doesn't want to be an idol anymore and she doesn't feel comfortable in that space I okay we're giving Matt a lot of props I'm going to keep giving Matt props when when Matt's video came out I couldn't watch it because I was almost done with the video game but I wasn't done yet so I watched it probably like a week ago at this point and I messaged him immediately because the the core thesis of his video the video is called Persona 4 is conservative and I agree so completely and and the three examples he uses for why that is are exactly the three examples I was going to bring up on this episode as well about the S-Links that I think are done the dirtiest and this is one of the ones that I actually really feel very strongly about because I love Risae I love her character I love her story I love almost everything about her I think the way it ends is rough and only made better by seeing like literally only made better by seeing a poster of her in the subway station in Tokyo in Persona 5 it's the only moment where I was like I'm happy this is how it ended but I find that her story of like I'm uncomfortable by the idol economy I don't I don't like being sexualized constantly there are like creepy men in my orbit all the time yeah I want to go live a more simple life I you know I'm reset as this idol but I'm like Risae as a person and I and I want to figure out who Risae is as a person first before I move on with my life is such an interesting idea because like specifically in Japanese culture the idea of like becoming an idol is one where you are basically like plucked out from obscurity and turned into a national superstar like that's how yeah like in in the same way like American Idol produced all of these people who became extremely famous or like you know Simon Cowell with one direction or something like that like that is a that is a longstanding from like the 60s 70s ish history in Japan of like people will just kind of get plucked out of you know no-name towns and turned into huge superstars and that obviously comes with a bunch of like fucked up caveats like if you know anything about like the modeling industry anywhere in the world you know what that can be like and of course for a girl who I think she's 15 right she's she's a year younger than everybody she's very young yeah so she's she's a year younger than everybody like she's 15 or 14 years old and is already having experiences where she's like I'm maturing much faster than I really should be and and should need to at this point in my life I want to like go fucking be a kid is such an interesting and like well thought out and well explored idea in this video game like it that is the kind of thing where when I point a persona and talk about what it is as like a rebellious franchise questioning long-standing cultural norms in society like going after the the idea of the idol is really strong which is what makes her s-link so disappointing to me but we'll talk about that later yeah I think um I'm a little bit less harsh I get why you you were disappointed by the s-link I think we'll talk more about it later like you said but I agree in terms of just like using her literal like theatrical like pop culture persona as like the ego she's like trying to navigate is really fascinating yeah it's interesting because when you meet her she's very quiet but it's because she's like depressed and not she doesn't really have any friends yet and she's like afraid of people recognizing her yeah there's like paparazzi all over the place so there's like people outside of her her grandmother's tofu shop constantly like yeah heckling her essentially and I love after you do her dungeon she's like oh by the way I love you guys like she's like it like takes her a second she's like oh wait you're all actually great and I feel like uh her she just reminds me of like every theater person I was close friends with like my whole life like she just has that like she can turn it on and off and she's like very genuine but also like she has a personality that feels real despite her larger than life persona uh literally yes I also love her actual persona I love the design of it this like 1920s dress with the satellite head it's so weird but it's so striking to that's I think one of the things that's most interesting about Risa and I think again like really goes to show how considered her character was the fact that she becomes the character that is like um like your navigator and you know you're kind of like background like random healer you know the futaba or um yeah who is it Fuca Fuca yeah from three like the idea of Risa having that role in this game says so much about her as a person that she's not going to be on the front lines with everybody but she is going to support you know the way that she knows how is like really really really interesting and really really well done she's also so good like I love so Laura Bailey plays her in the English cast and like yeah the way she talks like it's as if she's like a tv show host while you're fighting she'll be like great job you're so cool you skye like she just has this like uh it's and uh it's great like I love how like Fuca's a good navigator in three but she's largely just kind of saying like what she's seeing which is the role yeah but I like how four and five it's like we're gonna filter this through like a tv show host and then in five it's like this is the hacker in a heist like you know talking through the headset yeah I that's so much more fun when they get to that it's really cool but Risa's entire dungeon is basically this idea that like she doesn't want to be an idol anymore and she she is having a hard time separating who she is as an idol from who she is as a person because she's never lived that life right like you have to imagine that when she got picked up as an idol she was probably she was even younger than she is now like she's been doing it clearly for a couple years at this point so she was probably like 12 or 13 when she was picked up as an idol which is crazy yeah which is wild um so her her experience is basically like I I haven't been like a person with my own thoughts and feelings like I've had managers and agents and you know directors and etc etc and like and designers basically organizing my entire life up until now uh so I need to figure out who I am and you know her her stuff is like I think the fact that she shows up on the midnight channel like in a bikini doing a strip tease is like absolutely fucking mortifying to her also when she finds out yeah like how the tv world works after the fact um but at this point in the game the the rumor of the midnight channel has kind of faded into obscurity which is interesting like people people aren't talking about it at large in society which I find very interesting because this is a side note one thing I think about in terms of the way they decide to explain why everybody can go into the tv including you about like you are actually the nexus point for this and everybody you become close to is also able to do it over time that does mean that at any point dojima could have been curious enough after hearing all of these people being like yeah and there's this tv world where you can go in where he could have put his hand into the television and found out that he could go in same thing with onico who is constantly watching tv every single time you're with her that's true I I really want to see I'm sure someone has like head canon like what is dojima's persona I feel like he would be so cool as a persona user like there's this shot of him like in promo material where it's like him with the loose dress shirt holding his jacket looking sideways and doing a finger gun and I'm like this is cooler than anything he does there should be a persona over his shoulder yeah he's mostly just reading the news and like having back pain one of the outfits you get as the protagonist is dojima's outfit also which is like you could just recreate that entirely like they even give him a cigarette which is funny but yeah I really like risaise dungeon it's it's a strip club which again like I think it's presented as like a horrifying thing versus like this fantasy of some kind it's her dungeon the one where you need to maybe this is um maybe this is not her maybe this is now into this dungeon but it I think this is one of the first ones that has like a gimmick to it um maybe there's some like some of them start being like you need to find a weird item to get further in this is the one where teddy also has to bring this up also yeah yeah so like the party is actually unable to be shadow risaise which is kind of cool that she's just like canonically the strongest persona because she can see all their weaknesses because that's like her personas power she can like scan the whole area so like she they just don't stand a chance and then teddy is confronted with his shadow self which is honestly really scary and also this is one of the harder fights too because you have to do them back to back yeah which is pretty tough but shadow teddy is like you're empty you're nothing you're meaningless and uh this is where teddy also becomes a persona user which honestly kind of rocks I was proud of him for getting this yeah well it's interesting because he's also canonically a shadow right like he because he's in the tv world that means that he is one of the shadows even fighting the whole time um but this is a moment where he like realizes he has a a subconsciousness to him yeah he's connected to the collective unconscious and becomes becomes basically human in some ways and then we're like yeah yes which we'll get to I can't remember like if they fully explain teddy's deal but I think it's kind of implied that like his friendship with all of you kind of makes him real yes basically yeah they never really talk about where he came from yeah explicitly but they they do talk about uh like why he becomes who he becomes I guess now that I think about it I think it might be implied that he's a remnant of the shadow world before it got overtaken with fog because like it is I guess going to the very end but like once you get this sort of true ending the fog clears and it's this like beautiful natural landscape right and I feel like he maybe was like part of that world before it got overtaken and then sort of like lost sight and memory of it yeah he has a line towards the end of the game when I think when they're looking at at the like verdant whatever in the tv world where he's like I haven't seen it like this in a long time yeah so I think it implies that he's like when shadows were non-violent and this world was peaceful that was like where he came from yeah um and he's just sort of been like a husk since I don't know how into it we need to get if you if you want to get so into it folks one of my one of my favorite things I did recently actually was uh there there is a section on the main menu of this game that's called tv listings and you can go into the tv listings and there's a bunch of different stuff in the game first of all there's a game show that teddy hosts that you can go just like go do quizzes uh I didn't do that because I didn't really feel the need to um but there's like a bunch of stuff with like music you can listen to and one of the things in there is uh our our guy from persona three mr edegawa um my hero has a whole lecture series it's I think a 10-part series where he explains youngy in psychology uh and you can just sit there and watch all or I guess read all of his lectures and he gives you little quizzes at the end of some of them also and they talk about the kind of origin point of a lot of the ideas that are present in the persona franchise I actually have a lot of thoughts about the way they explain it um and kind of the literalization of it in some ways um but one of the things they talk about is the idea of like you know the ego the consciousness right and then the unconscious self and then the collective unconsciousness those three tiers of like thought are kind of or or non-thought are kind of the like core of where persona comes from right the shadow self is the idea of like the person who you are afraid to be right if like your persona is who you truly are like in your heart of hearts the shadow is kind of the flip of that it's this like version of yourself that like you're afraid to show other people um and so much of this game is about obviously confronting that shadow self and the idea I think that teddy represents if I were to like really intellectualized teddy for a minute is maybe the idea that the shadow self isn't necessarily a negative at all in the first place right which I think is what's happening with each individual character when they confront that shadow self in the first place and kind of accept them you know you brought up the the connections between this game and celeste a lot like how yeah it is like literally the story of celeste is like confront like not only confronting but accepting this kind of darker part of yourself and saying like actually the two of us together is what makes me me um I think teddy being this like this shadow that existed in a verdant you know kind of utopic version of society is in some ways a representation of the idea that like a shadow can just exist solely by itself and be good like it doesn't need to be a negative in the first place it's just that the ways in which society's societal norms have kind of built up around us that has kind of warped us into being ashamed of pieces of ourselves yeah I think that's a great read and I think uh the shadow self is also like the person you chose not to be in a way right which again doesn't necessarily inherently mean negative him being a literal empty costume kind of drives that point home too where it's like this is an abandoned persona in many ways I love how much we love and give credit to teddy we're definitely like the most teddy centric thing about persona four right now like any other conversation teddy is like thrown right into the trash and people like avoid talking about him we're like he's kind of humanities will yeah I did yeah I watched one youtube video that was like all social links ranked and it was then the first one was like all right all the way at the bottom is teddy I'm not even gonna like do him justice by talking about him let's move on to the next one like that was literally how the video opened I was like damn damn but yeah I think I think riz say uh joining the team and then teddy also this is shortly before he becomes human yes which we talked about on the main show but like basically there's a scene where like I love the scene so much yeah I why don't you do you you really loved this I'm gonna let you I love it so much it's so funny because I I'll say that I didn't see it coming I I managed to not have this game spoiled for me almost at all which I think is pretty remarkable um that's awesome because like I knew so much of what had happened at the end of three and five most of this game in all of these years had not been spoiled for me so I didn't even know that teddy became human in the first place that was not that was not a thing that was on my radar but there's a point where teddy starts leaving the tv world and starts hanging out in in junez as I mentioned and he starts hanging out with yosuke and uh you know so much of his time is just spent like being a bear costume jumping around junez you know and like literally being a mascot for junez um but this is I think the point where you're like in the summer right and it's hot yeah and you're all sitting around the table uh in the food court in junez and teddy just starts complaining about how hot he is and he's like I just I gotta get the fuck out of here like I gotta get I gotta I gotta like climb out of my costume and everyone's like you can't do that teddy first of all you are just the costume like if you can't climb out of anything because that is your body uh second of all there are kids around and if the mascot takes off its head and there's nothing inside and there's nothing yeah kids are gonna freak out and honestly like we're already freaked out enough by your corporeal form and he's like no I just I can't I can't I gotta do it and he unzips himself and it's like one of the only animated cut scenes in the game there's like a couple yeah one of the handful that they have he unzips his head and takes his head off and reveals that he is like this like beautiful cherub of a boy you described him as like he molts yeah you described him as like one of the oron host club high school kids which I I he's got like swooping blonde hair there's like kind of you know like glitter glitter around him when he reveals himself and uh full camp he then wears like like an a starry and frilled shirt with the big rose on it whenever he's like in an outfit and he now has like a human form he assumes when he's in the human world it doesn't stop him from wearing the bear costume sometimes which I do love yes like even when they go skiing later in the game he is skiing in his bear costume and not as his human self which I think is very funny it's like loosely implied it like take some energy to to maintain the form but like it also just kind of deeply unexplained as well which is definitely the move and I I love human teddy I think it just it like it's so funny I think it represents an arc of some kind um and he starts to become like more present and slightly more reliable like I think the thing about teddy is he's always the butt of the joke many cases like he deserves to be yeah but whenever he's missing or whenever he's in trouble the whole group is like god damn it where's teddy like yeah like when they when they go back to um to the the town from persona three and he goes missing for a while like it's a it's a big moment um yeah it's a big deal uh I think in particular it's his relationship with Nanako that is like really one of the reasons that I think I would imagine teddy is so endearing to you and I like I yeah he really cares about her in a genuine way and she loves him she loves him yeah which is understandable because he's like you know weird fun uncle right like he's like that just always going around like losing his mind that's the point Alana made in our episode I remember where we were talking about teddy and we were all like I kind of like teddy and Alana was like the fact that Nanako like sees through people and like lands on teddy being a good person like gives him major points like like Nanako approving of teddy kind of proves he's like a decent guy yeah there's there's so much as you were saying like there's so much about the like horny mascot stuff that's like so gross and stupid and productive and like there's so much other stuff about teddy that in my eyes like just not makes up for it but like adds more to his character that makes me want some root for him um I think even particularly like it's so repetitive and I don't even care but like so many scenes in this video game are everyone's hanging out teddy's not there they're having a normal conversation one person asks where's teddy and then he shows up and does the dumbest thing imaginable and it's so funny every time like that exact format of a scene happens like 50 times throughout this video game as soon as he becomes human it's just like where's teddy oh he showed up and he's been shaking every can of Coca-Cola he can find in in this feed lodge like whatever man and that's like why him and yosuke are so good together because yosuke is kind of like the the like he's trying to maintain order in a world with none because teddy is near him you know so it's teddy and nanako and they're hanging out at junis and yosuke is there and and um teddy is trying to cheer up nanako it's after some stuff happens with her that we'll get to um but uh he's like trying to cheer her up and he's like oh we should go visit um we should go visit the the grocery aisle because the ladies who work there will make us anything you want and and yosuke is like no they won't they have things that they need to make because it's their job to make it and you just bother them all the time and ask them to make you like steaks and shit like they get they're not your like personal chefs dude there's a point where teddy stays with you and yosuke is like the minute he gets annoying you can send him back he's like if you call me tonight and want to send him back by all means it's so funny and he actually does a great job like he actually like maintains a house for you and is like genuinely helpful especially because i think that's when you get really sick yeah that's in the february like golden park because you're supposed you're going on a ski trip and then you get sick and they delay it yeah and i think you get sick because of something happening with marie which we'll get to eventually but anyway so yeah this is like this is where like the summer is really where the game kind of confidently enters the second act like you've got the family unit you've got like most of the party teddies are human and like this is when you just get like like you mentioned this before but like there are so many scenes where it's just like them hanging out doing a big group activity yeah that isn't leading into another big plot beat it's just like a fun time shared with friends like it's not it doesn't have anything to do with the main story yeah when you get to like the golden week festival and stuff and you're like you know like everyone's like dressing up and going out and watching the fireworks on the hill and stuff yeah that's that's also that one of my favorite moments in the game is when dojima is like you really like assembled a great group of friends here yeah and they all eat watermelon together like all that stuff is so nice it's like it's just like that's what i play this game for and when i when i'm talking about like you need to play this game to get why people like it so much like that's the kind of stuff that i'm talking about is like those those kinds of scenes which is not again not the kind of thing that would like show up in like a general plot summary of this video game no and even if you were just to watch like the cutscene on youtube like it would wouldn't really have like there's something about seeing the characters as like 3d models this whole time and then seeing an animated cutscene where they like come to life more we're like those are my friends i know him yeah and and just the loop you've experienced together like this amount of time spent like grinding and doing all the stuff and like you know investigating murders having this downtime is like a huge reward you know it's like i feel like other games reward you like there are plenty like rare personas and weapons to find but in a way i feel like the ultimate reward of persona is like here's a month to do whatever you want yeah you know yes that's what you're playing it for no totally i think i think this um this that bit that i was talking about too with dojima is also like doubly interesting or like it hits doubly hard because it's specifically like him turning around on kanji as well because like kanji is like known in the town as a troublemaker like dojima already knows who kanji is and when you start hanging out with him he's like you shouldn't be hanging out with this guy he's a bad influence so him saying like you you've really assembled a great group of friends including kanji almost means twice as much because like he's really he's come around on kanji but also is like in some ways indirectly telling you that he's really happy that you're around and that like you've done a good life for yourself here in this place where like i think he just assumed he was like doing a favor for his sister and you know like this kid's life was going to be kind of miserable for a year and then he'll go back home it's just it's really it's really heartwarming it's really really heartwarming it's great i think this is kind of like my favorite part of the game honestly me too like when i think about persona for golden i do think about this part of the game in particular like everybody sharing watermelon in the yeah in the living room with the sliding doors open yeah it's so good i also it's worth noting i i would recommend playing the game this way so like i mentioned how when i first played persona for i beat it in like a few weeks just in like a feverish state and then uh this playthrough of golden i actually like gradually revisited over the course of years like i started it when we first got our steam decks but well before we had plans of doing this episode and then just sort of once we realized we were doing the vita episodes like well i feel as like it feels like now is the time because we were talking about this game like every episode let's just do a bonus yeah but i ended up playing it in like it would be the same time of the year when i would go back to it which is like so fun i would recommend like starting this game in march or april so now basically yeah and then just playing it when it's the season it is in real life like playing the like ski trip in new york stuff like during the holidays was so much fun it was great yeah but anyway yeah so what follows this is um one of the first big twists of the game everyone's least favorite teacher nicknamed king moron is killed yeah and the basically you find out that the main suspect is this kid mitzvah who you briefly briefly meet at the very beginning of the game there's like an especially creepy looking kid who says hi to yukiko yeah he's like at the gate he asked her out right he asked her out and she's like what i don't know who you are and you move on and like to the characters they don't mention him ever again but to the player you're like who is that yeah that kid's super weird looking yeah you're gonna make a mental note like it looks like he's wearing a human mask you know which i hate to be mean but it's like he's drawn to be creepy and and look you know weird yeah so he uh suddenly it becomes clear that maybe he's the murderer and the latest victim is king moron so you go after him and his dungeon is like a very twisted version of a dragon quest game where everything is like you know sort of retro like nes style uh the music is very like eight bit and um the boss is like this really disturbing like baby creature surrounded by blocks that resemble like a warrior in a video game yeah it's like it's a it's a real literalization of like who he is on the inside and who he thinks he is because of this act of killing moroka right like he sees himself as a hero for doing this he's like everybody hates this guy you know he's a mean teacher like he moroka is the first and maybe only person who is directly mean to you in this video game like when you move from the big city to inaba he's like yeah i know you think you're a fucking hot shot kid but like sit down and learn what real life is about and uh it's kind of a dick to you for a while yeah and i think kubo probably feels like this is the experience that everybody is having all the time so he's like yeah by killing this guy i'm going to become the hero like everyone's going to think that i'm great but in reality he's like a weird freaky baby inside inside the hero shell yeah and even like as you go through the dungeon it's like it represents the murder as like a turn-based combat thing and when he kills and it's like emptiness plus two or something and it's like oh it's really it's one of the more disturbing dungeons it's really sad yeah and uh you know you catch mitzuo and uh he's gets taken to the police station and for a moment there it feels like the mystery is solved so like basically after you catch mitzuo the whole team is like cool we did it like we don't have to worry about the murders anymore and then this is like when now like natto is sort of introduced through kanji initially but natto like starts to come back into the spotlight again and and the mystery is not closed it's it's basically confirmed that like yes mitzuo killed king moron but it was a copycat killing this was not the work of the main culprit right because i natto being an actual detective is like basically prying for information about the previous sus or the previous victims yeah and it's it's clear that mitzuo only knows about the ones that were televised and natto literally kind of like offers herself up to be the next like potential victim to see if she can catch also i i mean i love this whole cast but i feel like kanji natto and risae are like easily my favorites i love natto so much she is the like l counterpart obviously like the master detective i love natto yeah i'm excited to hear more about her in prisona five even if it's just little bits and pieces because i want to make sure that she's okay too yeah she also would have been helpful in prisona five honestly in a weird way i thought she's more suited for like definitely more helpful than a catchy yeah we'll get to that that's true but uh anyway um yeah so natto um and you learned that natto is at this point everyone thinks she's a boy but you learned that she's actually a girl who is passing as a more masculine person because she fears how she will be like taken like she's already kind of not taken seriously at the police station because she's so young yeah doubly so if it's revealed that she's a woman right so this is also i think like natto's character similar to kanji is like um there's a lot of discourse about her character i have a lot of thoughts about natto and and i i think i just want to say i don't want my perception of her character to debase any read of her as a trans character because there are people that read natto as a trans masculine character as a non-binary character and i think there's power to that read and there's literally evidence in the tax that that's like a way you can interpret the character um i think for me natto's story felt less frustrating than kanji's because with kanji as we talked about before it does feel like they're setting up his story being about one thing and then it's not and then with natto it's like i don't get the sense from the script or the performance that she identified as a different more that she was like worried how she is seen and that she won't be taken seriously as a woman right yeah there there are the there are the lines that are like i wish i was born a man yes and it's mainly in the face of like how society would treat a young woman in her field and that that's what i mean by like i don't want to discredit that read because like that line has a lot to it right there's a lot of weight there yeah powerful line um and again i think a lot of people felt seen by this character and continued to be seen um but yeah i think it felt less like a a sudden edit or like a sudden like betrayal of what they were setting up like again it would have been great to have a trans or non-binary character in the cast but i think natto landing in a place of like fuck it i don't care how people see me i'm a woman this is who i am i don't care if you respect me less i'm gonna do twice the work of anyone else like that that's a meaningful story too i think it doesn't feel quite as like like they're bailing on something in my opinion yeah the thing that really gets me is just like the the dungeon itself like this is actually yes yes as opposed to conchies like this is the one where it's like yeah you're you have like a gender reassignment mad scientist like saw adjacent like elie roth directed lab is so fucking brutal and so gross and like it's very disrespectful i feel like this is the dungeon i would say if they change any dungeon it's this one yeah i think it like it feels like it's gonna lead up to a worse reveal than it does yeah but conceptually it's very off-putting and it does sort of like demonize anyone who has had that kind of physical transition yeah but i think the thing about natto is like my main issue other than the dungeon with the betrayal of natto is that the minute everyone realizes she's a woman she's treated worse so like right like the minute that's revealed there's this like running bit about her being stacked secretly and like suddenly you know characters treat her worse and like there's also this thing if you romance her where you can like tell her how to act which i think that is like the worst part of her story is like i don't like that that doesn't that doesn't sound good that they put like her decision in the players control feels very weird yeah that's messed up and it it paints her like it takes the choice away from her because i think like i'm i'm fine with her landing where she did because it's her choice but then letting the players say like no you should actually act more feminine feels very disrespectful yeah on the on the other side of things there is the like budding romance between her and kanji which i do actually really like a lot which we were robbed of that that was kali's big point when we recorded together was like there is that there that would have been such a fun queer romance and i think in games like this i always love when characters end up together outside of the players involvement like i love how a mess effect for example if you don't date garris or tolly they end up together oh that's fun i didn't know that most people won't see that because most people are dating garris or tolly but it's like if you give up on the two best options they're like i guess we can date yeah but uh yeah so it would have been it would have been cool i think um again i don't want to dwell on this for too long so i think it's like i don't know what new observations we can offer here but i think it's worth sharing our perspective at least and we'll share more writing in the episode notes as well about about these two characters i remember this dungeon in particular being the one where you have to go to floor six and then go back to floor three to get a key and then go back to floor six to like keep going up to floor ten where you go fight the boss i find in general like the the like quote-unquote gimmicks in i would say the earlier dungeons in this game tend to not work for me really at all like i just i find them to be like more kind of annoying than anything like they don't really add to the experience it just kind of like make it harder to get through a dungeon which is like already pretty difficult in this game in a lot of cases especially if you know you're doing what you and i and most people try to do which is like do the whole dungeon in one go yeah it's pretty hardcore and and being like okay i made it to the sixth floor but you're not gonna let me pass until i go refight floor like essentially turning it from a 10 floor dungeon to a 13 floor dungeon not very fun which is why the next dungeon that has absolutely no gimmicks to it whatsoever and it's just a straight 10 floor dungeon is like that's actually very nice like it's kind of like a nice breath of fresh air it is also thematically appropriate for that dungeon which we'll talk about yes it's like from i would say now to backwards the dungeons are like kind of brutal in ways that i don't think they need to be but is very clear that like this is a team that is trying to expand on what they did in persona three and they want to be experimenting more because like tartarous as an idea is like especially in the initial release of three right we're not talking about reload but like in the initial release of three and eventually portable like tartarous is a slog and it's supposed to be a slog and i think the idea here was like let's take these dungeons match them more thematically to what's going on in these character stories and they will have like little tweaks about them that will make them each individually more interesting than just you know climbing 100 whatever floor 300 floors of tartarous like last time i totally get the instinct to change it up i just think you having to like backtrack was not the enjoyable way of changing it up and the funny thing is when you get towards the back half of the game all of the like quote-unquote gimmicks that they add to those dungeons actually really work for me and i find very interesting yeah like i think marie's dungeon is really fascinating and like so good works well with the theme of that dungeon too but yeah despite the missteps here now toes edition is awesome she's so cool you need someone with this level of intellect and confidence in this scooby-doo like group yeah like we need someone with the brain in this squad and um yeah she's just badass like i just think she's a really cool character and also has a pretty good s-link despite that like you know um that that strange moment i mentioned in the romance and i actually do want to like i just saw that when i was watching the s-links that i didn't see like i maxed out her s-link but i went down the platonic path i do kind of want to romance nato next time i play just to kind of see i might i might pursue her in the remake and see how they handle that if yosuke is added back against all odds i will pursue yosuke but yeah same i think i'll i'll go for an ato next time yeah but yeah um so now we've got the full party and i think that's like the biggest one of the most frustrating pieces of persona and also metaphor is that like you don't really get the full party until the very end of the game and you're like oh i wish i had more time with these characters because like you get like the best character last even nato getting her towards the end of i think it's the end of september is when you get nato and like you know at that point you have what october november december january february and like a lot of that is timeskips also so like you really actually don't have that much time with nato but you still have like many months and it still feels like not enough with now not to mention like you have to max out your confidence to even talk to her after school so like oh is that true you can't even you can't even begin her s-link until you've like maxed out a certain stat oh i didn't know that i think i think by the time i unlocked her i'd already maxed out all the stats yeah it's either like it's something with like confidence or break i forgot there's so many stats i mean they do that a lot in three so i guess it would make sense that they were also doing in four but i i was really prioritizing those stats in this game in a way that i wasn't in three initially i love the one in five everyone gets it eventually we're like i think it's like level three or four of makoto's s-link or confidant is like you need to pretend to be her boyfriend and you need the maximum level of charm for people to believe the lie if that's possible yeah that's really funny she's like you need to pretend to be my boyfriend but like you look kind of like a slaw maybe like take a few baths and we'll try again that's awesome that's so funny it's like my first playthrough of percent of five it was like i would grind him a mentos and then just like go to the bath house every day to continue that s-link that's so funny or eat a big cheeseburger so i could pass as my friend's fake boyfriend that's that's a good to know as i continue my percent of five playthrough yeah you want to keep it keep an eye on on the confidence or on the charm rather i think um because from basically from here on is like the plot happens yeah the plot comes into full focus so i think i think maybe now would be a good time to take a break and then when we come back we could talk about what happens in the last part of the video game sounds good to me all right bye bye everyone welcome back we're uh we're we're careening towards the the big reveal of our villain here yes we have uh so technically this next dungeon could be the last one if you get the bad ending this is where the game ends um i don't know if you've seen the other endings or not but i actually haven't watched them i feel like i probably should have watched them but i didn't the bad endings are brutal they're like really really rough you probably won't get them like i think most people playing without a guy you'll probably get like one of the normal endings yeah but basically like so after now toes dungeon the protagonist gets a threatening letter that says like if you don't stop investigating someone you really care about is next basically yeah and something in those words i forgot the exact wording but basically it's a threat that like someone they really care about someone very close to you will be the next target and it's not a co which is really really brutal i mean it's never it's never like a relief who's kidnapped but like i didn't even expect nannako would be like a target for this plot of the game like for the murder yeah i was freaking out when this happened i couldn't believe the game knows that you're gonna be like extremely upset about this yeah and to add to the horror of it her dungeon is so sad because it's essentially it's just heaven it's called heaven and it's like yeah her soul is so innocent that even her like shadow she has no shadow self yet and it's just sort of like a paradise of some kind but also like a paradise as filtered through a tv set so it's sort of like a construct of a paradise yeah yeah there's that and then also like the the element of like that's where she thinks her mom is so she like where she wants to be internally is with her mother yeah which is which is extremely sad it's crushing yeah i will say though i love the song for this dungeon it's one of my favorite songs in the game it's a really upbeat number which kind of helps add some levity to this to help fucked it is yeah the whole plot that gets us here though is there's a guy named namatame who like is kind of revealed as uh the kidnapper maybe again the second mastermind behind the entire thing um he's a guy who has been driving a van around with a tv in the back like a big flat screen tv in the back so he can like kidnap people and throw them into the televisions he's also the politician that was involved in that scandal at the start of the game yeah exactly um so he is like deeply connected to the entire thing and again there is a world in which like this is where the plot wraps up and you're like yep this guy is obviously it yeah so basically like as you you basically get to the end of nanako's dungeon and rather than like usually the dungeons will end with like a confrontation of the shadow self like even with uh mitzuo he has like a shadow self he has to deal with um he doesn't become a persona user worth noting but he still has a shadow self here it's just namatame with nanako um and so basically the group like rescues uh nanako from him he like turns into a shadow basically yeah i also love the look of this boss it's like a weird mechanical angel with like a piece of love t-shirt it's deeply bizarre also one of the harder fights in the game and uh yeah basically once you wrap up this dungeon uh this is when i think i i tried to give you a spoiler free list of like here's all the stuff you need to do to get the golden ending and i said something like when there's a tense scene in a hospital keep asking questions because that's like the way to avoid the bad ending but essentially like you the player and the group are all like enraged like you're so mad at this guy he almost killed nanako even in like once you rescue nanako from the shadow world she's like deeply ill from her time being in this realm yeah she has like a mysterious illness she's in a coma in the hospital um dojima also gets like really fucked up in the interim like in the chase uh because there's a car chase that happens as well and he's like extremely fucked up his like it's kind of implied that something on his torso has like a huge gash in it and you know they've been like trying to stitch his wounds up but because he keeps getting up out of bed uh against his doctor's wishes and like walking over to nanako's room to stay with her like his his stitches keep opening up over and over again basically every day they have to close him up because he's spending so much time with nanako which again if you've like done both of their social links at this point which you have to have done um then you'll be uh you'll you'll like really feel that you know believe it or not they're actually not a requirement but you should do them no i don't mean the requirement but i mean like if you if uh if you want to see all of them i think you need to have done up through like rank six for both of them by this oh i see you mean yeah like right you can't you can't increase them after this yeah the only one that's required for the golden stuff is marie i believe but like i do think like it's marie and adachi i think at a certain point as well you have to get him to rank six before this happens no you don't need to do him at all i actually didn't even talk to him and i got the golden ending oh really it's it's just that if you don't there's a cutoff if you want to do it okay i see yeah it's only marie is required but uh yeah i kind of just ignored adachi completely because i had no interest then i just i watched it after the fash and i was like i'm glad i ignored him more on adachi in a bit but uh yeah yeah so um after this dungeon the whole crew like locates namitame and is debating whether or not to throw him into the tv like you said earlier in the episode yeah and yosuke especially is like because i mean yosuke you know is like they've all been impacted by this but yosuke is the only one who has lost someone directly like uh one of the people murdered was his friend sake um so he's a little bit more got like blood in his eyes and is like ready to throw him in the tv and if you do if you just say and on top of this not only is he like the leading the prime suspect but on the tv on the midnight channel is like a shadow version of namitame being like ha ha yes i did it basically yes um exactly and i was like what no like i really really didn't and if you say like yeah throw him in you get the bad ending where nanoco dies which is extremely brutal yeah uh teddy goes missing and the mystery is unresolved and the killer is still out there so just like basically a game over like to call that an ending like no no one is going to get that be like wow what a good what a great game four to five yeah um wow golden indeed yeah um there is believe it or not a worse ending that you can seek out which does require you max out adachi social link but uh that's the bad ending um and there are sort of variations of a bad ending but essentially the game ends if you don't uh if you if you throw namitame into the tv but if you keep asking questions you quickly realize like wait a minute there's enough evidence to prove he can't be the killer and it also was very clear that like he believes like it's revealed that he thought he was saving all these people like yeah it's revealed that like he got the power to go into the tv's and basically like after the whole scandal and you know his sort of fall from you know fall from grace like he saw this power as like kind of a mission from god to save people so he was kind of doing a version of what you've been doing throughout the whole game where essentially i don't even think we said this but like when someone is thrown into a tv if they're there when the fog rises in our reality that's when the shadows become very violent in in the shadow world and they will kill whoever's there yeah so that's like basically your time limit and so namitame thought that he was basically like being alerted who the next victim would be from the midnight channel and then would kidnap them and throw them in the tv to keep them safe from the killer so that's so he was like oh i'll put them in this other world because the real world is so fucked up and has a serial killer on the loose like he puts together that people who show up on tv are the people who are gonna die next but then he thinks he's the hero in this story and because you've been saving them he thinks he's been saving them too because all he's been doing is just throwing them in the tv and then they're fine so it is like a very clever twist like he is guilty but only of kidnapping he's just been the one throwing them into the tv and they would have died if you did nothing but the larger killer is still at large and the characters kind of come to that conclusion if you keep asking questions and then after you kind of keep asking questions and that scene resolves itself or like namitame is taken into custody but he's not thrown into the tv the group kind of settles down and is like okay well if it's not him who is it and then actually they give control to you the player to guess who is the killer did you get it they give you a big list of everybody you've ever met in the video game yeah this is another version of the bad endings i think you have like three guesses they do like limit you in some way and if you if you don't kill namitame but you do guess the wrong person you get like a slightly less bad bad ending um i i so it's a dachi if it had if you haven't already been able to put that together if you didn't know that yeah um the real culprit is a dachi basically he killed the uh the first victim of the case and then sake sort of indirectly by pushing them into the tv but he is directly responsible for their deaths and then as like a sick game he basically encouraged namitame to do what he was doing because namitame called the police right to try to help and he got a dachi who was like that is i don't know keep doing what you're doing i guess or he says something that leads him to just continuously doing this because a dachi is kind of getting off on the like game of cat and mouse he's created right because again he hates inaba so much and he he's so quote unquote bored living there that he's like i'm going to create some excitement for myself and for everybody else in this town yeah so i'm curious like we've talked a little bit about a dachi off the show i'm curious like how did this first of all did you get it did you like know it was him and second how did this reveal work for you there's a lot of prop comedy in this episode brennan just held up a piece of cloth that said yes on it yeah i just have a piece of cloth that says whenever i uh hold this or look at this i do think of captain falcon saying yes anyway yeah i have actually have a little you remember the like old obama poster that said hope and it was sort of like a red white and blue filter oh yeah i have a little plastic card from like a 2008 comic con of captain falcon with that same filter and it just says yes underneath oh that's great that's perfect yeah yeah so i knew it was him basically from the beginning uh and it's basically just because they added him as a social link in this game yeah which is like the biggest bummer i think of golden in general for me was like it really i was actually more surprised when you know mitzuo and amatame showed up and i was like oh maybe it's not a dachi and then you know as as we continued like as the inconsistency started piling up i was like oh i guess it definitely is a dachi huh so yeah i knew it was him the second question was did it work for me yeah just like how because basically like if you choose a dachi everyone is like wait a minute like that's wild but also that kind of adds up like he's always around the scene of the crime he has access to all this information and like you know all this stuff and like uh even though it i don't know what his motive would be like he does kind of fit like it would make sense like he's one of the few people who'd be capable of doing all these things um and when it works for me in that sense like it works for me in like the narrative like the literal narrative plausibility sense that it's him and it almost doesn't work for me at all in terms of like the actual characterization of him after the reveal of him as a killer right the coin flip from like heads kind of bumbling sidekick a dachi to tails like i'm i'm the villain now like that version of a dachi like really feels so abrupt and i the thing that really i think gets me about it is this is another instance where i think his s-link and it like that storyline in my eyes like even looking back and i i rewatched it just to be like am i like missing something like i just didn't feel like it really primed me for that reveal either like i i can tell that he's bored i can tell that he's like annoyed by the people in enabob right there's a whole like little mini arc where he's like annoyed by this one old lady who's always at junez and like i understand that he has like a distaste for the people in enaba but i think the thing that's more interesting about him that is like not even alluded to like it's pretty much stated directly that he's like kind of the the inverse of you as a character right like he is also showing up from here from tokyo is like basically not finding anything about enaba to connect to he's not finding friends he is not like finding anything anything even like remotely welcoming or warm about the place he just has disdain for it and like that's an interesting idea that i don't think is explored well enough to turn him into a murderer in the way that he is yeah i feel like um the game seems to simultaneously want to paint him as like a look at this like tortured you know nihilistic like evil mastermind but they also kind of want to redeem him in a way that like doesn't work at all for me like like his s-link so the s-link the addition of his s-link seems to be done with with the understanding that most people will go into this having played the original game at least like when golden was in development i imagine adding him was like this is kind of a treat for people that already know he's the murderer and so you kind of get a deeper look into his psyche and i think what's interesting about his s-link for one it's the jester arcana which is a literal flip on the fool which is essentially the main character um and if you progress it to a certain point like he is like bored and restless and he says a lot of like uh you know when the one of his first lines is like i'm just killing time you know there's a lot of like foreshadowing like that but um there are moments like when you're together with with nanoco where like you get a glimpse of like a potential good version of the character where like yes he could have been a more positive person and he could have connected to this family he could have connected to other people i i think that that the opportunities are there for yeah yeah which i think makes his turn even more potentially tragic in some ways but it is also like such like i you and i were talking how like it would have been more disturbing if his personality didn't change like if he just had the same demeanor and was like i just thought it'd be kind of funny like like you know just have that and that's actually the thing is like all these true crime things they interview these murderers like they do act that way like they just act as if it's like i mean not everybody but it's like you know i remember seeing like interviews like jeffrey dommer just like kind of matter of fact talking about it and it's like that to me is scarier than him getting like creepy eyes and like a wicked grin you know yeah right or the like later reveal that he is also being manipulated right which is like also undercuts everything here that kind of muddies his motivations a bit because i i do like him as like a twist on the protagonist like here's a person who is like you know entered the adult workforce and is like disillusioned with life and has no respect for other people or life itself that all works his persona is dark in izanagi you know yeah like um and i like his dungeon a lot the look of like this sort of twisted inaba with the caution tape everywhere it's great but yeah his s-link like gets to a point where like you eventually learn he is this you know evil murderer but there's another version of it where you actually team up with him it's uh it's the imply or the one other ending that i said is like worse than the bad ending you the game lets you if you like commit to his s-link you can destroy the incriminating criminating evidence so the one piece of evidence that links him to this is the note that he left you the threatening note yeah and you can burn that and basically become like his associate which like i don't on one hand it's like interesting that it's in the game but it's like so outside of what the player or the character would ever do that i'm not sure why it's there even like the ending is cool like it is like very scary like there's a version of the ending where like the protagonist says goodbye to all his friends and then the train goes by and you see like a dachi in the window for a second and the character like jumps in his seat and it's just like that's like a fun little extra but it's like who's gonna do this especially after like 80 hours of gameplay like who's gonna be like time to destroy the evidence for a dachi like i just don't get it specifically when you're like in his dungeon and he's just like kind of pontificating about how fun it is to be evil was also like almost kind of like salt in the wound for me about how how unbelievable this turn became i i'm so with you that i really wish he would just kind of like kept the same kind of like bumbly demeanor i wish that that was kind of the the more driving force here like literally just him given all this opportunity but his dispassion and disconnect from you know but and its people like really just drove him to be like the most evil motherfucker i think a much and this is a spoiler for persona five so skip ahead if you don't want that game spoiled but like a much better version of this character for me is a catchy like i think a catchy basically has the same twist and is a similar like twist on the protagonist like what if the protagonist had no friends and hated the world and was like born into this like horrible family but a catchy is like so much more interesting and tragic as a character to me because like essentially he and joker were like a bet of the gods like what if we gave this one guy this and this other guy this and like yeah i think the feeling of a catchy that's interesting because that's not not what's happening here right that's what i mean of a catchy being a better version of this because it is like yeah is an army basically gave this power to the protagonist adachi and namatame and was like let's see what happens right and so like i but i think the script needed to lean further in the direction of is he being used or is this fully his actions because leaving that ambiguous and then sort of asking us to feel slightly bad for him after he like assaults and murders people is just like it's just confusing you know i think um it like you know i think in the moment i didn't really have like i don't know who else it could have been you know um like i don't know who else right the like my only other guess was teddy just because like i'm like well there's there's like it's not going to be any of the other characters and like teddy is the only one that we don't really fully know but if it was teddy i feel like it would be not his like he wouldn't be doing it intentionally but maybe just like his existence is causing some weird trouble or something um but like it kind of has to be adachi because like who else would it be right yeah so yeah i think you know it's not like it wasn't like i was like huh during this whole time i just think like i think it would have been more satisfying if it felt like holy shit of course it's him totally um but yeah in the adachi situation like it's just um i i can't imagine what it must have been like and and i'd be interested to hear your take on this but like what it was like to play the ps2 version of this without his s-link also because i imagine it probably felt even more abrupt i was really surprised i did not expected to be him and i only found out because i i just sort of guessed like okay well like it's chiye it's not dojima it's not nanoco so it's like who does that leave it's okay i guess like was it adachi and like it but it wasn't like a oh my god like for example totally different game but a game like ghost trick uh the the other great game by shu chikumi of ace attorney fame um that game uh has a reveal about the main character's identity that is so fucking good and like slap your slap yourself in the forehead of course moment i wish i had that feeling of like that you rika moment with adachi instead it's like oh yeah i guess like he kind of just has to be it because like yeah again it's not like rese or kanji yeah so i wonder if that's an opportunity for the remake to like i mean that would require some serious rewriting but i'm like is there a way to like gamify the detectiveness of this at all like you know i think at this point most people know it's him but like yeah i don't know i did that be interesting though i mean they did do a lot of rewriting and added a lot of new stuff to reload yeah that's true and if they're and if they're going in that direction again with revival like i think they'd be very interesting for them to really either like bread crumb it a little more to make it more interesting when the reveal happens or as you're saying add a little bit more work literally to the detective work yeah but um it is like i think it's it's a fun boss fight it's fun to fight like another persona user yeah and the way it plays out is basically like you know they take him into custody there is a little bit of like a the characters pity him they don't they don't try to make it like aw poor adachi but there is a little bit of like oh how much of this was his control and his faults but regardless like the characters are are sober enough to be like we're not gonna kill him but he has to answer for his crimes yeah well this is also the bit where you fight the giant eyeball right like that's also yeah you fight you fight adachi and then you fight the giant eyeball um that is like which is which is the thing that illuminates the idea that it might not have been adachi the entire time but like that there's some kind of larger force at work here and the eyeball is like as you're fighting the eyeball the eyeball is saying things like you know my my whole role here is to watch humanity and give them what they wish and what they wish for is fog and that's like first of all deeply silly when they first say it like when I was when those lines of dialogue were being read out loud I was like this is really going it's like really dangerously close to jumping the shark in some ways but also I mean I think I think they make good on that idea later on they do I think when we get into Marie's dungeon and the final dungeon like that idea of like the fog that kind of envelops humanity like that there is some interesting stuff there but it's so funny that we go from like what is the mystery here the mystery is solved it turns out it's adachi just kidding adachi has been manipulated by a giant eyeball that wants to create a fog throughout the entire world and now we're like fighting gods you know yeah we've just like ramped up very quickly into this I feel like this is also like with knowledge of the rest of the game in retrospect this becomes clearer that like it's a fake out final boss fight because the boss is named Amino Segeery and it is like a mechanical eyeball that yeah it says like I am the will of humanity I will give them what they want they want to basically like live in their own delusions yeah and be obscured from the truth just to be like kind of comfortable and complacent right which is I think another like flip again on the apathy syndrome from persona three yeah right there there is it's where I started to like both lock in and also kind of dissociate from the game simultaneously where like some of it was working for me and some of it wasn't but those parts of it that were working for me were like oh yeah there there is an element of what they explored persona three which I won't get too into you should play persona three it's really good maybe we'll do bonus about it at some point but um you know apathy syndrome is an idea is like people get so locked into their routines that they kind of start to ignore everything in the world they they don't really see any positives or negatives in anything that they do in day to day life they're just like so stuck in the norms of the world and what they do on a daily basis they don't really think or act outside of those regimented ideas and structures and this game being like not like in the last game we painted that as like a purely negative thing and in this game we're actually painting that as like the the true like will of the collective unconscious like this is what society at large wants is to ignore everything except for the way things the way things have always been um is an interesting idea at least yeah I think I think it's better explained and explored in the next few bosses than here yeah but I agree I think it's um and some of the s-links even touch on this like basically uh it's not one of my favorites honestly it's kind of one of the bad ones but the uh soccer s-link the whole the whole point of of that story is like it's better to do your best and fail than to just sort of like half-asset and not put yourself at risk like it's better to like live life and feel pain but have like you know know that like that was fully me out there playing soccer than just like I'm gonna half-asset so no one can actually know how good or bad I am at this yeah I think that that's kind of what they're getting at here where it's like people would rather not be you know vulnerable or seen I mean again like going back to Risse like wanting to you know moving back home and wanting to leave the spotlight and kind of you know there's a comfort and obscurity for someone like her so there's a lot you can pull from this be I think in the moment it's like I am the eyeball of fog and people love it so I can't I get where you're coming from yeah yeah I just think I just think the uh execution of this moment coming hot off the heels of like I beat evil adachi who is the anti me and now I'm fighting a big eyeball who's talking about fog and won't shut the fuck up about fog uh was like all right man whatever I'm just I'm on the roller coaster it's honestly a similar issue with the original ending of five is that like you fight the big bed of the game and then it's actually like the will of the people that you have to defeat and like it's so much less cathartic to fight a goblet that's like a concept than the dude who's made your life hell from day one you know yes exactly exactly which yeah you're you're so right but I also think like that's very final fantasy 10 of them where I feel like you kind of have two versions of a final boss and final spoilers for final fantasy 10 whoops the the real final boss in many ways is a character that you're like very very personally connected to and have had like a lot of issues with for the whole game and then the actual final boss which is like a fight you can't lose because like auto life is cast on you or something is like very conceptual and it's like you're actually fighting an idea more than a person yeah so that's why final fantasy 10 is the most persona of all the final fantasies right yeah we can cross that question out of the google doc it's been it's been bolded and underlined for months which is the most persona how do you feel about this as a trope I'm curious I mean you've played a lot at this point we've both played a lot of jrpg's but I would say that this is definitely like fighting god a trope of yes many of them is like fighting a god at the end or fighting a representation of an idea or like here's the the the evil theme of the video here's the theme of a game with a sword yeah right I think it really works sometimes and it works so well sometimes that everyone wants it to work all of the time it is the will of the people to put god at the end of the game I think you cannot put it better I think that's exactly how I feel about it sephroth works very well in fantasy seven one-wing danger is like such a fucking good boss theme that it is basically the like jaws theme of video games it is it is just so synonymous with like we want an epic final boss fight and I don't say epic lightly I try not to say epic but like if you're gonna say epic it is for that fight yeah I can't imagine what that is gonna look like in the part three of the remake because like just fighting like a random enemy that was like a robot in the beginning of the game was like a five phase 30 minute fight now it's gonna be like a whole disc is just the sephroth fight well think about how intense the sephroth fight was at the end of remake right but I mean like the actual literal final fight I'm just saying like they've already they've already lifted the floor of what my expectations were so I can't even imagine where they're gonna take it shows up in your house yeah um I also think in terms of persona I think it works really well in three and I said that before I think yes fighting death at the end of three is great because you you actually can't win either like it's a doomed venture and they personify death in a really interesting way through that character ryoji and so it works there and I think it works less in four and it works even less in five and I actually think one of the reasons why royals finale is so much better is it like makes the final boss of the game someone who is actually relevant to the story yeah like a tangible thing yeah so yeah I think I think overall like I can see why there's there's an I can see why they want a final boss to feel like unknowable in an interesting way or like and persona since like you know I think persona wants to root for all its characters it would rather blame concepts and beliefs than individuals um which is maybe I think it's it's like I think that fits what the games are exploring with like the young game psychology of it all and sort of like trying to fight systems over individuals but it can sometimes take away the blame from people who are worthy of blame you know like yeah there's an interesting thing about the the young in psychology stuff especially if you watch the mr. edegawe lectures yeah in in this game where I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this in a way that I think isn't too harsh or too damning but the sense that I got watching these and to be clear this is like a fictional character in these video games explaining to you how young in psychology relates to the things you're doing in the video game right but by and large these lectures are a way for the development team and the creators of the persona franchise to tell you the player like these are our inspirations this is what we're pulling from these are kinds of ideas we're exploring we're talking about this the sense that I get from those lectures and also from having played these games and having seen you know having played now three and four and having seen the endings of five and five royal the sense that I get is that when we talk about and I brought this up before but when we talk about the consciousness and the unconsciousness and the collective unconsciousness the creators of this game are writing under the assumption that the collective unconsciousness is a like 100 true verified proven out idea that is like real and not something a little bit less tangible and I think in a world where you take everything that you everything that young wrote at face value and you don't really question it which is interesting because like there are bits of that lecture series that are like a lot of the idea of the collective unconscious and the way that they say in in these in these lectures that he proved the idea of a collective unconscious is that he went around the world and asked other like asked a bunch of people who had no idea who didn't know anything about other cultures like what do you dream about what what do you see at night like they he hypnotized a bunch of people and like was quote unquote like diving as deep as possible into their unconscious selves and like pulling out the truths that they believed within them and everybody had like similar ideas about you know like fears and hopes and desires and things like that like there were there classic ideas that showed up in everybody that he was studying which he then defined as archetypes which then became you know in this case like personas or the tarot or whatever like that's that's where some of that stuff comes from and he was like this is how we explain religion because so many aspects of religion are you know similar across all of these different religions like they're very similar ideas showing up all over the place like there's idea of like the old wise man and like the you know the the earth mother who like gives life to all of creation like all of that kind of stuff and there's usually some kind of Satan figure someone who like tempts you with something that's more kind of related to vice in some capacity whether that's like earthly pleasures or sin or or something like that exactly there are all of these different archetypes that he writes down based on you know all of the things that people are telling him while they're hypnotized and the way the creators of persona four at least relate this information to you is like this proves without a shadow of a doubt that the collective unconscious is a real thing instead of being like there are learned experiences societally and culturally that bury themselves deep into our unconscious selves that allow us like basically as like evolved animals to pick out things that are helpful or harmful to us you know kind of without needing to think they're like unconscious ideas and that I think is where we find a lot of the disconnect in what they do with persona five in particular but also a little bit here like I think I think the idea of you fighting the collective unconscious in five stems from like a critical misreading or hyper literalization of what young studied without like any real asking questions about it and I'm not saying that the developers like believe this 100% of the way like I just mean that like these games are a very literal adaptation of his ideas and I think that that can lead you down the path where you create a game where you fight like an intangible idea instead of like a person yeah I think I think that makes sense I mean I think you kind of have to literalize it to gamify it and I actually think that like I like how unsubtle persona is at its best moments but I agree that I think they accidentally become randy in philosophy when you take this approach of like it is the masses that are thoughtless and at fault and it's like only me and my five friends who are right only through rugged individualism can we find true happiness yes which like works in the reality of a video game but less as a key takeaway from like a like I think persona does want the player to like take this lesson to their own life and to be clear I don't think that like the game is saying like people inherently suck in only it shows and few are good I don't think that's at all the intention the intended message in fact I think it's quite the opposite I think the the thesis of almost all these games three four five and metaphor is that we need each other and that we find our identity and our truth through our relationships and through love and connection that's the message it's the power of friendship quite literally it's the power of friendship yes but I also I think you're right that when you fight an idea it becomes like that awful murderer is actually not the big bad the big bad is like all your relatives thoughts at thanksgiving which is also maybe like right this is what I'm getting at because it really reads to me like and and this is maybe digging a little bit too deep in but like it really reads to me like you know the writers behind this game and these games in general are like walking around being like man society's changed so much and not for the better and I'm going to fix it by making a video game where like you rebel against you know societal norms and like wake people up because they're turning into sheep and like I can totally understand that that's like a pretty harsh read of these games and to be clear I'm closer with your read than I am with the one that I'm talking about right now but I do I do think like playing devil's advocate a little bit there there is a version of the story that is more cynical across the board like all three of these games like can come from a very cynical place where it's like are these people walking around judging society and being like only through the storytelling of my video game will I be able to wake people up like there's a non-zero chance that that's kind of the like almost shadow self interpretation of young in psychology that they've landed on here but I think the reason that the series resonates so much and the reason why you know you can go through fighting a giant eyeball being like fog fog is like because it feels hopeful in the end you know and like you you created all of these incredible bonds and friendships with people and you created a family where there was none and you feel close to them as if they're real people when the credits roll yeah and I think there's also like there's there's also an implication that like when the god says I am humanity's will this is what most people want that the god itself is also a construct and is is literally assuming based on a construct so like yeah I think it's yosuke who has a lion in that sequence where he's like yeah well there's seven people standing in front of you who do not want this yeah right and we are human we are humanity also and we don't want the fog I do think though there's a there's a point near the end of Persona 5 that really hit me hard especially at that time because I think you know I think that game came out in 2017 which is you know the beginning of the trump presidency the first time and like is also the beginning of the me too movement and I think was sort of a year of many revelations like I think at least for myself up until that year I kind of was naive to how kind of far gone a lot of elements of our society were and like just the deep corruption that was at play that we lived in a country where someone that and unambiguously awful could easily win you know like right um and the fact that we you know lived in a culture that like covered all this heinous shit up um and it took this long for people to start speaking up I there's a point near the end of Persona 5 where the realities have merged and like people are just walking around Tokyo while there's like demons in the sky and like bones everywhere and so doro and a few other characters are like look up like how are you just walking around at like this is a normal day and I think that really hit me because I do think that while I don't agree with the with the potential randy and lens you can apply to that I do agree that like I think the best and worst thing about us you know humans is that we are extremely adaptable we can very quickly get used to things and I think what the game is saying is like don't let this be the reality you get used to like right look around you and say no this is not the reality I want to live in um that really worked for me but I think like the I think like seeing all the villains you fought like in a prison cell go like it was the goblet that made me bad I'm like what is this right yeah so I I'm reminded of a tweet that was like Persona's so fucking good except when it sucks ass but it's also so fucking good but it sometimes sucks so bad and this is why I say that even the worst Persona game is better than most games yeah because how many games are saying any of this you know like like sonic sonic what are you saying sonic I gotta go fast how randy in the view chasing technology for the individual's sake yeah only by going fast can I prove hedgehog's ability to usurp humanity anyway that's how the game can end when I played Persona for the first time pretty golden uh Amino Segeery was my final boss because after this basically the game you know adachi's in jail everything's wrapping up everyone's like wow like we finally did it like there's almost like a loss of purpose a little bit everyone's like oh damn like we don't have a murder mystery to solve anymore but I guess we can still hang it out and then there's also there's the bit there's a bittersweet quality to these final months where like everyone's relieved that the case was solved and that like the murders have stopped and that Nanako is safe and alive and dojima's recovering but that you're moving away soon that like come march you'll be going back to the big city and what that really means is that you've beaten Persona for golden and you're turning it off and you won't be in this virtual world anymore that's the truth that's the truth can I put a pin in in this moment and go backwards real quick yeah please I just need to highlight the moment where uh Nanako is still in a coma and teddy puts his hand on her head and then disappears and uh it's it's heavily heavily implied that he sacrifices his own life to save Nanako because she she dies briefly uh which is a moment where I literally was yelling out loud by the way where I thought I thought for real that they were killing her off absolutely crushing yeah and uh teddy sacrifices himself to save her life and there's a there's like a bit where he is wandering through the void that you start this game in and is just like I guess this is just my life now just like wandering through this thick fog forever and uh everybody starts looking around for him you know like Nanako's back everyone's happy but everyone's like where's teddy and everyone is like running around the entirety of Inaba trying to find him and they can't and you find him in the limo that is the velvet room for this game and uh you have this like very heartfelt conversation where he's like yeah I guess I'll come back and then he shows up again that's another Persona sin while we're counting them off is killing a character and then not it's like they do that all the time and I think you get two back to back here you get right although I do think there is a uh one of the bad endings is Nanako lives but teddy doesn't come back so I think he he comes back in the good endings but there's a version of this where like Nanako is okay but teddy is gone um and it's implied that he's gone for good so going back to the ps2 version of this game real quick yeah so you fight the big eyeball who's like humanity wants fog I will give them fog and then there's no more fog and the game ends and everything is like good that's like kind of the idea so the thing the only new dungeon in golden is marie's in the original Persona 4 oh isanami is in yes but you will miss it if you don't know to not go home because the way the game wraps up in both okay in both that makes a lot more sense to me yeah that's why I was like screaming at you like when it feels like it's ending it's not say no when they say go home because what I did was like if you fight uh um you know adachi and you do that whole thing the game wraps up and it's okay like say goodbye to all your friends and everyone you've maxed out your s-link with is like around town and you get to say goodbye and they give you a gift that you can carry into new game plus I believe yeah that might be in five something like that be basically talk to everybody who you've gone to know over the course of the game it's one of the best things persona does it's so yeah it's awesome it's so cathartic just to go around and and and they'll kind of tell you like what they're up to and it's not just the main characters obviously it's like everyone in the s-links although if you're playing Persona 5 like I was the first time it's just Ryuji just like it's like sigh sojiro and Ryuji everyone else is at home boys night boys night yeah exactly yeah so then once you've talked everyone the game like as you're talking to people the game will be like you still have a few people to talk to and then once you've talked to everybody it says like okay time to go home and you can say yes or like give me a little bit longer and if you say yes you go home the game ends and that's it and you get like a you get what's called like the sort of neutral good ending where like you get a cut scene where your friend's like we'll miss you so much thanks for everything and then you get the end credits and it's like for most people if you didn't know about this other dungeon you would probably be fooled into thinking that was the end of the game yeah which I think is cool this goes back to way 10 days ago at the start of this episode where like we were talking about like do we like these satiric stuff I think this is one of the ones I really like because it's a final test of the game to see like are you happy with this resolution is there any other lingering mystery here I think they could have made it a little more obvious because like it really really does feel like the game is ending but you're supposed to say no and then you're supposed to go to junez and that's when suddenly everyone comes back and they're like wait a minute like what caused the midnight channel like who started that and you go through this whole thing and you're reminded by talking to a few different characters that when you first arrived and like you were in the car with dojima and nanoco at the gas station the attendant was like oh you're new in town like you you might you know you'll probably be hanging out with your friends you might even have some part-time jobs like you could work here if you want. He's like I have a job for you yeah if you're interested yeah and you shake hands and like you suddenly like feel ill and that's essentially when you were given the power it is pretty cool if you start the game over that scene does stand out like it does really like you shake hands oh there's a sound and then you're like I don't feel so well and then that night you have a dream about like a mysterious figure in the fog but I feel like it happens so early on in like an 80 plus hour game that like I don't know if anyone's going to be like what about that one moment you know when the game ends I know it's stuck with you though you you were dwelling on that right it did stick with me and you know what's funny Stephen when I was going back and listening to our previous conversations about this like one of the earlier episodes where I talk about Persona 4 I talk about this guy at the gas station also I'm like yeah this gas station attendant really is like a weird vibe going on and I was like uh-huh I think I think it's lit yeah yeah thank you for not giving away anything I may not have known at that point even honestly oh that's possible but yeah um the the the thing about it is like I have played through the beginning of this game so many times over the years that I feel like that interaction is so seared into my head that like it was it's like oh yeah the beginning of the game when you show up at the train station and then you go shake hands with the gas station attendant like that's how the game begins and I never really thought about it from the perspective of like and then the protagonist gets like sick in the car on the way home and like feels weird and then wakes up in the velvet room or whatever like that's that wasn't what I was thinking about but I was thinking like yeah there is something weird about that gas station attendant specifically because they offer you a job and then never show up again well they're like on the street and you can talk to them throughout the game but they don't have like a portrait they don't really play a significant role in any way after that right and when you when you get to the job board and there's like a big list of jobs the one that they told you about at the beginning of the game is not an option which is like very suspicious and that's really why it's stuck in my head but like I'm not gonna sit here and be like I knew from the start that it was the call they were giving me a nami vibes from the beginning I kept thinking there's definitely he's a not one of the two creator deities that the shook my hand it is ezenami like so basically if you stay behind you talk to everybody you then go and like interview a few suspects and you talk to the gas station attendant if you keep talking to them they eventually reveal they are ezenami and if you max out adachi social link he sends you a letter that's like you should go talk to the gas station attendant yeah that's basically like that he gives you a hint yeah but you only get that if you've chosen to not go home he should have sent you a letter that said don't go home when the game tells you to go home right say no it was just so funny that like a letter letter for you and it's from adachi in jail and he's like hello please feel bad for me a little bit I'm trying to be better also remember that weird gas station person you should go talk to them again yeah so I do love the ezenami reveal I think it is fun this is the better version of what we were saying before of like fighting a god at the end because the myth and this is some of the mystery to go out goes into is like the main myth they're kind of riffing on between ezenagi and ezenami is that like those were the two creator gods that were in love and then a like demon killed ezenami and then ezenagi slayed that demon with the sword and then created other gods from like the parts of that demon if I'm remembering correctly but the main myth is basically ezenami goes to the underworld and ezenagi pursues her and ezenami is like don't like uh don't like look at me like she basically is like trying to disguise how she currently looks in the underworld but ezenagi lights his comb on fire and and it reveals like her decomposing body right and she's so a little orpheus in uridice yeah right which is not a coincidence given orpheus is the main the protagonist person and person of three and considering the collective unconscious is absolutely 100 verifiably true you're really stuck up that yeah sorry I can't stop thinking about it anyway um it's also telling that when you meet marie it should gives you a comb coincidence anyway ezenami is so ashamed to be seen in that literal light that she says like as it's very angry god like I will now kill a thousand people like every year or something and that ezenagi counters like if that's true I will make sure that like 1500 people live to ensure you know humanity continues humanity survives which is a kind of a fun spin to on the murder mystery where it's like we are literally saving every potential victim to prevent murders from happening yeah so I like that I think it's fun I think it's simple and I think ezenami being the final big bad goddess you fight is cool and if this is my favorite reveal in terms of explaining things is that it's revealed that the midnight channel is actually just a window into your favorite thing the collective unconscious and that is it is how people like want to see the other character um and so and that's revealed partially when you're debating throwing namatame into the tv because everyone there is convinced he's the murderer and when they look at the tv it's basically confirming what they want to believe and I think right now you know at the time of this recording we're in an era where like ai is being shoved in every trying to be shoved in every part of our lives and I feel like uh the people that fall prey to it are largely you know victims of like the ai chatbots like reaffirming what they want to believe and gassing them up and even outside of ai just like the way algorithms work like we're in a world where the algorithms essentially decide what funnel you best fit and throw you down it and so you're only going to see and on some level only want to engage with things you either already agree with or things that they think you'll get mad at to stay on the platform and to be clear this is not to conflate like actual critical discussion or debate with like getting mad at like there's a clear difference but like I think you know you see if you're like on tiktok or any like short form platform where it's like you're just scrolling through and they're just giving you things that are either like already what you want to see or something that will enrage you yeah and I do think that is like having the game even in 2008 kind of make that comment because I mean you know even before the technology there's always a version of this right there's always a fox news type organization yes there there are realities that exist or there are constructs of realities that exist to reinforce you to say oh you're so smart you're right everyone else is wrong I mean that was a classic thing and like a lot of Ray Bradbury stories of just like like in Fahrenheit 451 it's not just that they're burning books it's like the only form of entertainment are these like panels of people telling you how great you are and how hard you worked and so yeah I think the game saying like that's what the midnight channel is is like a confirmation of your you know you've already made up your mind and that's all you want to see I think that that has bite to it I think it's better explored in five in some ways but ending the game with that one little twist really worked for me personally yeah I think it works for me too it does it reframes the experience of some of the other dungeons as well or specifically some of the other midnight channel encounters you know because like take like Risae for example right like the version of Risae that shows up on the midnight channel is the version of Risae that everybody wants actually right and it's simultaneously and this is why I think it's interesting it's simultaneously the thing that Risae is actually the most afraid of like it's the thing that she doesn't want to be the most and I think the the conflation of those two is actually where like the the new wants interesting take on this is yeah and you know thing by the same thing for kanji right like you know feel how we feel about kanji's dungeon and the way he's presented and stuff but there is this version of like this is how everyone wishes they could see him and this is also what he's most afraid of does change the calculus a little bit in terms of how we think about all these characters who have shown up on the midnight channel at some point so I think I think there's I think you're right I think there's some bite to it like I think there's some interesting stuff going on with that idea and I agree with you that it's like the least bad version of we need to explain every single mechanism that allowed this this is a high plot to happen you know yeah and you know the whole the whole point of the myth with is an army is an agi is like is an army wanted is an agi to believe a comforting lie that she wasn't actually in this like hideous yeah dead form or to really like believe that she had actually died and is an agi is like I'd rather see the truth even if it hurts yeah and that's kind of I think another sort of point of the game is like it's about the truth but it's also about life and like how life often sucks but it's better to live life and like experience the ups and downs of it than to sort of mute yourself and to like be numbed everything right I think that's I think it's it's simple but it's powerful especially when the game is like your day to day life yeah and this is the thing where like and I can't wait when we get into questions we start talking about social links like there are some social links that are very very good at highlighting that exact yes concept I think and and they're they're you know it not so much with the party members I think because of that disparity between like what's going on in their social links versus what's going on in the plot but a lot of the like non-party member s-links I think are very very good at wrapping up that theme in a very nice bow and exploring it through like very high school lenses which I think also really aids the entire experience yeah but I really like the is an army dungeon it's like beautiful aesthetically like you're in like the heavens and there's like these sort of like very uh it's like ribbon or something the material of the floor and the walls is really cool and then is an army as a boss is like first she's like all bandaged up and then she's this like grotesque rotting creature and uh I do love it's so classic jrpg but I love towards the end of the fight she keeps casting thousand curses which which your party members keep diving in the way to to take the hit for you and they basically get dragged to hell and you get dragged to hell too but then like all the friends you've made along the way like gas you up and like tell you to not give up it really works like it sounds so horny and it is but it's so fucking good right you have access to one spell that you can use to fight back and he throws his glasses off it's so good I love it's like he throws his glass off he doesn't need them to see the truth Brendan uh and then you cast the final spell that that does it and uh is an army reliance and is like kind of like hell yeah you did it like she's like sort of proud of you just like good luck kids right I will say is that that's that's largely how it ends and you have a very heartfelt finale with the cast before we get to like the ending ending like the sort of summer epilogue I wanted to touch on Marie's dungeon too because we do we should double back but yeah so one of the one of the new things for golden is like there's this whole February ski trip thing I love the ski trip it's so fun I love the cutscene the animation I love like just all the little events that happen a great yukiko scene at the ski lodge I feel like she's like one of her best moments in that little scene which which bit are you talking about I think when it's like what everyone's telling ghost stories oh yes it's really into it yeah yeah she's always like super into what everyone else is afraid of like it's like that scene and then when they're all like drinking at the club oh yeah yeah she's great this is also a great teddy moment where they're all telling the teddy is again conspicuous I told you it's the same format every time teddy is conspicuously absent from this scene as everyone is telling ghost stories and then suddenly the lights turn off and everyone starts freaking out and when the lights turn back on teddy is just eating all of the food that's on the table as quickly as he possibly can it's amazing it's so fucking stupid but yeah up up to this so Marie is the new character you meet her very early on and she is one of the people in the velvet room it's Igor Margaret I believe is the new like velvety room attendant and then Marie and Marie has her own s-link and a lot of it's similar to Elizabeth who is the very similar yeah attendant in three whereas Elizabeth Elizabeth was more kind of upbeat and peppy but was also very curious about the human world Marie is like a stranger to the human world but like kind of wants to know and a lot of her s-links are like you and her hanging out with the rest of the cast too which I think is actually a great way to have her addition not feel so out of nowhere because she's not present in the main story otherwise she's only her only connection to the other characters is through these s-links right but I think she like fits in pretty well like she's a divisive character I've seen and I can't say I feel like I got to know her that well but I overall liked her I think she's like she's an interesting character and I think her voice actor is really good too I feel like it was a really good performance which helped sell it I just it was just fun seeing how open this group was to a new person like it was cool to see them all be like oh like Marie who's Marie let's talk to her and get to know her you know I think she plays off the cast really well because I think that you don't really have that kind of like more like despondent vibe in the cast like it actually is helpful to have somebody who's like a little less upbeat and a little more uh a little edgier you know especially like when Kanji joins the crew and kind of becomes a little bit of part of the comic relief like he feels like he probably could have taken the role that Marie ends up taking sure yeah but her kind of standing in the background like rolling her eyes at everything that's happening in the game I think really works and I think the thing about Marie I was iffy about her really until the end and I think it's a case where like following through on her s-link and going through her dungeon really does I think make up for the kind of disconnect I felt from her earlier because the idea is less that she is like exploring humanity and humankind through the same lens that like Elizabeth was as you were saying in the last one she's also like a stranger to the velvet room she's kind of like a stranger to everything and the reveal that she is also one of the goddesses whose job is also to like keep an eye on the will of the people and see what they want like she has this godly remove from everybody and everything and the way she interacts with the world even while she's looking for answers about who she is and where this comb came from and all this stuff like it really does come from a place at least I feel that my reading of it at least is like it's coming from a place of almost like indifference not even yeah a little bit indifference but also just like there's she almost can't get over the idea that there is a possibility that humankind is even like worth examining like there's a piece of her that really like hates the role that she's been given as she kind of grows into it and and it becomes very literal like when all of her poetry is read aloud in her dungeon later it's very clear that this is where she's coming from but like there's there's a version of her that's like I hate this role because I've already decided which is again on brand with the rest of the game I've already decided the humankind isn't worth it so why would I be doing this in the first place and then of course as she gets closer to the cast and to you and to Inaba even and like Inaba as her first and only touchstone with what the human world is like which I think is a very interesting flip again on like Adachi and the protagonist and also Yosuke but also like the people who grew up and live in Inaba there is this sense that she's like really really really grown and dear to humankind and like now deeply regrets having felt that at all in the first place and hates her role even more because now she cares yeah I like that I liked her dungeon a lot basically she ends up like disappearing and if you like ask Margaret like where is Marie you end up unlocking this extra dungeon yeah the holo forest I got the sense that she's sort of like Rioji to death in three like there's sort of like a human avatar of the of the god at play I gathered that Marie was sort of like the good side or like sort of more conscious side of Izanami yeah she goes to the holo forest specifically because I mean as I was just saying like because she has now grown to love humanity she's like my job is actually to return the fog to the world like when you killed the big fucking eyeball all the fog went into me and my job now is to release the fog back onto the humanity now that the big eyeball is gone because she also has a big glowing eyeball now it's cool it's a cool look honestly it is and she's like I'm I'm here in the holo forest because I'm basically planning to like off myself to make sure that that doesn't happen in favor of humanity and then you and the crew show up and you're like don't sacrifice yourself for that we'll find another way through this which is nice but I will say mechanically this is my favorite dungeon by far like maybe in a persona game wow I loved this dungeon it is so hardcore you show up and you don't have any weapons all of your weapons are just called like strange sword and like whatever and you don't have any equipment all of your items are gone and every single time you get into a battle your sp is halved so like whatever whatever amount of sp you have you have half of it when the battle is over and the only way to like regain that stuff is to go and open every single chest and like fight every enemy you can but also like you need to pick and choose which enemies you're fighting because again your sp goes down by half every time so you really need to have first of all built a party that you are very confident in for me the party that I was running most of the time was um yuki ko naoto and kanji oh cool and and naoto had innervate three which is like she's just regaining sp all the time which was so helpful but also you start to pick up items that regain sp as well like accessories and then you also start to pick up armor that loses all of its defense stat but does blanket complete coverage for certain elemental attacks which is like so helpful as well it's really tough it was a really tough dungeon and I think like mechanically very interesting and it felt like the most successful version of what they tried to do with almost all the other dungeons in this game yeah I agree I really really really loved it yeah I'm curious how much this will be like a point of reference for the remake if they want to change up the dungeon design at all because it is it is so considered and like tied to the themes of the dungeon yeah my party for most of the game was um the first time I played I used kanji, teddy and yuki ko and this time I used chiye yuki ko and yosuke um the only person I can't see ever playing without is yuki ko uh she is so good she's too good by the end yeah we have burning petals burning petals is great and also if you have her and chiye and like there are three pairs where if you have two characters of a certain pair they will just occasionally do a special attack freely of their own choice do x slash so yeah so if you have a chiye yuki ko they do like a twin dragon attack where these like two dragons go around yeah there's another one with yosuke and teddy I forgot what it's called um and then there's one with nato and kanji I think it's called beauty in the beast and it's like a big skeleton yeah it's beauty in the beast it's awesome I got it all the time which was great chiye made this dungeon much easier than it would have been because a lot of her attacks use hp instead of sp and she has like a deal almighty damage to everyone attack basically more like deal like a severe physical damage to everybody I would say in terms of party members like yuki ko has the best magic kanji has the highest attack chiye is a little bit more balanced than kanji but it's still like kanji is like endurance and attack and chiye is like agility and attack and like slightly better magic and then yosuke teddy and nato are kind of jacks of all trade characters like teddy is a little bit more focused on healing and buffs yosuke is kind of moral over the place and nato is a little bit more about like exploiting weaknesses and buffs yeah but I feel like the the only character that like you shouldn't go without is yuki ko basically because you want to have that magic damage and those heals as well let me ask you who who did you romance in this run again resey resey did you did your scene when you found the tv to get to this dungeon was it you and resey stuck in a blizzard it was interesting yeah okay so that that's just whoever yeah it's whoever you're with um and then everyone all shows up everyone else shows up and they're like we've been following you the whole time yeah actually I was I'm curious in the animated cutscene when everyone is skiing in pairs was it you and yuki ko in the animated cutscene or was it you and no it was you and resey right yeah yeah yuki ko and teddy are racing yeah okay so in the animated cutscene I was like I was like did they make a unique animation for every that would be a lot of work uh for what is not like a romantic scene but I was curious so that was different yeah um be the the log cabin scene when you find like the entrance to Marie's dungeon is is whoever you're dating I wonder who it is if you have maybe just show up with everybody if you're if you're single because you don't have to romance anyone yeah anyway yeah that's Marie's dungeon you basically you know you you fight like a sort of shadow version of herself it's a pretty interesting fight too because like she initially like deflects everything there's like another kind of puzzle element to it and uh eventually you convince her to live and I I I found it very touching because I think in a weird way the rest of the party not knowing Marie very well but going this far to help her kind of is a testament to everyone's character that like they will go out of their way to help someone who they don't know very well um yeah which is cool uh I think Marie is actually like I like Kasumi better as a character in Five Royal who's like the definitive version girl that shows up there's always one and uh but her addition feels almost more awkward because she's like so present throughout the whole game and like is with the other characters that her not joining until the end actually makes no sense like there are even multiple points where they're like do you want to join the fan of these and she's like no and then doesn't until the very very end yeah that's funny but uh anyway I actually really hope I I could I imagine a no brainer addition to the remake will be take these like Beauty and the Beast twin dragon attacks and make them the showtime attacks from Five Royal that feels like an obvious addition they could do as well as adding Baton Pass which I I did miss that feature in this game pretty heavily yeah yeah Baton Pass uh it's too it's just too good it's just really good yeah it's just too good that's yeah yeah and um I think they should do another version of Persona 5 um that has I'm worried that they actually will it's like been long enough that they're like you know what let's take another crack at it but it only has the Persona 5 content none of the Royal stuff only the Persona 5 content but it also has shuffle time and I think that that would be the definitive addition to me that's Persona 5 Ruby Ruby or Persona 5 Revolution Revolution is perfect actually okay one last thing I wanted to cover before we do questions so happy ending the case of salt Marie lives everyone's happy everyone's gonna miss you everyone loves you um you get the uh summer epilogue where where the protagonist has come back everyone's got new looks um really I just we just need to mourn Kanji's new look basically or we need to mourn Kanji's old look it's horrible like everyone else looks great it's like so fun to see like after seeing them in the same like roughly the same it's it's very much like the Three Houses timescape where it's like oh my god everyone looks different like everyone's got new haircuts new outfits it's so funny because it's only like six months later but everyone looks so different yeah right and then Kanji's like yeah I unbleached my hair I'm wearing glasses and I've gotten really into e-commerce just sort of like yeah he's taken all of his piercings out also yeah and he is wearing it like he's like literally buttoned up like he's literally wearing a button-up shirt he does have a voice line I think it's in his s-link if I'm remembering correctly where he talks about like maybe wanting to no longer dye his hair he's like I was doing it for you know reasons that maybe don't make sense for me anymore there are parts of it that work for me yeah I think like from a literal idea perspective and the executions of fucking nightmare yeah it's like I what they're trying to say is like he was maybe trying too hard to come off cool and rebellious when he doesn't need to but they like uh my friend Sadie got me saying de-assified I was like they really de-assified him I mean there's a version of Kanji that maybe like drops some of the more extreme elements of his aesthetic but still looks like Kanji it really feels like they just made him into an NPC yeah that said despite Kanji's new look and he can grow out of it it's still just summer it's still trying things out yeah it's just so fun to see everyone again and uh it's just so it kind of adds to this feeling that like you will come back to this and like yes Dojima kind of has a line that's sort of like he's he says something short of like I guess we had a golden year didn't we like the game ends but like I just found it really touching to see like oh yeah like life continued and they're all like in a pretty okay place and they're all kind of continuously discovering new things about themselves yeah Marie becomes a meteorologist yeah what and she becomes like too famous also yeah I reset jealous uh it's very silly so funny but um it's a nice I think that is exclusive to golden like like four had the isanami stuff but I think this epilogue is golden specific because this is the golden I love this little epilogue yeah me too I think it's really sweet it's kind of you know it it knows you want to see everyone again and it's just like a really fun little extra moment yeah I feel like I love this epilogue because I feel like as we've already said many times this game is at its best when it's sort of stakes free when it is just like a moment in time with these characters hanging out and like this is sort of the ultimate version of that where it's like yeah the game is over but they know you still want to hang out with everybody yeah yeah I think in particular like the that feeling that we talk about when you finish a persona game and you're like dying to experience more of it like this actually does kind of satiate that feeling a little bit a little bit yeah yeah it does you're right it's like it just gives you like okay you can kind of imagine the rest now it's like we are just gonna be a little taste they just they just kept doing this every six months for the rest of their lives and that's persona for golden wow yeah wow I don't even know how long this has been but it's it's basically been all day for us then we're gonna break here and then do the listener questions so we'll see you all in a bit but thank you for getting this far if you're still listening yes we will talk to you soon dear listener see you then bye bye I think all right we're back all right for one last one last segment believe it or not the sun is still out where we are it's a golden day yeah and we have a bunch of listener questions these are all great thank you to everyone who submitted a question here excited to begin let's get started let's do it I want to start with Jared from discord in honor of rese and the inibah tofu shop what do you think of tofu and what's your favorite way to prepare I love this question let me put a pin in it real quick I'm gonna bring a guest on the show I'm gonna take off my headphones I have no idea what's happening but I'm gonna put Percy on the mic Stephen can you ask this question again yes I will what's happening hey Percy hi how are you thanks for joining us for this persona for golden episode my pleasure I've got a question for you okay uh in honor uh have you played persona for golden uh I played maybe the first dungeon and that's it okay it doesn't affect this question and all it's just curious but here's the question in honor of rese and the inibah tofu shop what do you think of tofu and what's your favorite way to prepare or eat it oh I love tofu I can see why Brandon brought you here you're always going on rants about this I'm going on rants if I don't know if that's true um rants or speeches what they think about Japan is that you'll have places that specialize in tofu and you can go and they'll do like tofu five ways and I'm like every way is my favorite way I like it soft I like it fried um Brendan's favorite way is probably mapo tofu which I don't know what is that one knows mapo tofu is well there's a Japanese version and a Chinese version traditionally it's a Chinese dish where they do soft like silken tofu with a mixture of ground beef and pork and like a really spicy sauce and then you eat it over rice um it's like classically addicted like spicy addictive like a little mouth numbing it's really good and people make a whole bunch of different ways so it's very much like a signature dish you can put a spin on my favorite tofu this is hard I do I did really get into just doing like literally a block of silken tofu with like soy sauce sesame oil sesame seeds scallion and what am I missing here I don't know you can just kind of like put toppings on it and then eat it with rice I really like plain food more than Brenda does yeah I do feel like in the US I feel like tofu is sort of misunderstood isn't in great ingredients I feel like it's usually I go on you're right yeah you feel this way too oh you feel this you feel the same way as me yeah because I feel like it's usually thought of as either just like a substitute yes as a meat like tofu or something which doesn't make that's like not how the ingredient is supposed to be used I also think it's a bad way to use tofu like I think tofu is much more delicious if you just use it as an ingredient that stands on its own two legs yeah I also feel like I was vegetarian for a few years and I feel like there are other like seitan is much better at like replicating meat because of the consistency yeah like one of my favorite vegetarian dishes there was like a barbecue place in Chicago that made a pulled pork dish but it was actually jackfruit oh yeah in the same way it was really good so there's like yeah I agree it's not really like it's good at replicating meat for having protein yeah that's like about it right which is not yeah the other thing I used to do actually when I was more in my like tofu as meat substitute is three cup tofu have you ever had that I think it's taiwanese no what is this okay cool you freeze it and when you freeze tofu and this is like a firmer tofu so you freeze firm tofu and then because it freezes essentially the water in the tofu expands and it creates all these air pockets yeah and then you can toss it in I don't remember cornstarch and bake it and it becomes more like a fried chicken almost texture and then you toss it in the three cup sauce which I'm forgetting off the top of my head but it's like three three ingredients of the same size and could you give us an example of like because I know there's like sweet and like dessert variants like what do those tend to look like yeah I don't know I mean I know people make pudding sometimes out of tofu yeah okay so you're not as well versed in this in this part of it no what do you know about it I just know that that's why I ask like I know that it exists but I'm not sure of like concrete examples at the top of my head but I feel like overall it's usually the more savory thing yeah I actually don't know that much do you know anything about sweet dessert tofu asking Brendan there's silken tofu pudding it looks like just from a quick google search but is that like in a like a western way to use like to make healthy pudding I have no idea it seems we're both outside of our tofu domain with this one but I appreciate all your knowledge with this and uh actually I'll give you a reveal of my upcoming prop I want to show Brendan oh cute but I maybe have some more stuff about tofu in a second did you write it is this yours I am so flattered you think that I wrote this but I also I'm I if anyone was to write it it would be me so thank you yeah you can start your like anime cooking youtube channel 15 years after that trend yeah there's a there's a show on babish binge with babish that's anime with alvin and he does like a lot of anime dishes on that show which is fun but yeah okay okay nice talking with you this is the question segment yeah it is so wait what is your we'll be we'll be done relatively soon what what is your favorite tofu dish um I don't really know I don't have tofu quite as often there's a really good Vietnamese place near me that's like a banh mi place that has a really good like uh vegan chicken noodle soup that isn't replicating chicken but it's just like tofu in the broth yeah I feel like tofu like when it's like absorbing like a flavorful broth or some kind of sauce is usually when I like it the most yeah I like tofu and curry like Thai curry yeah definitely as well a little fried tofu and Thai curry okay thank you thank you thank you per se tofu I love mapo tofu now that's tofu when we were in Japan I ate mapo tofu like at least once a week the whole time we were there for two months I I love it I think it's time for I told per se this and kind of the listener by extension depending on what makes it into the episode but here's my prop oh yeah dun dun dun dun it's the persona cookbook oh my god yes this was a gift from Matt Horton who we talked about many times because I think I just posted like in our group chat like I'm tempted to buy this and then Matt was like I bought it for you that's so nice oh my god thank you so much Matt we love you and yeah it's a it's a the persona excuse me persona the official cookbook yeah basically what it is is it's like food from the game so you can see on the cover there's like the ramen from three the beefball from four and then there are there are dishes assigned to each character like each character has like a dish that's sort of like based on their personality and it's awesome since I I would go ahead and say I know you probably wouldn't say this about yourself because you're very humble I would say you are an incredible chef and I feel like you would do a good job if you're if you'll indulge me I think it might be fun for us to go through the party yeah and for you to assign each party member a dish and then I can tell you what the cookbook has for them we can see like how close it is so let's start with yosuke yosuke yosuke yosuke oh man yosuke is all over ramen I think I think he's I think he's a big like noodle dish guy I think ramen in particular I think he loves the noodles and broth and toppings are secondary do what kind like what do you think like the key ingredient in his ramen is just to give it a little bit more personality oh interesting I was gonna I was just gonna say like a classic tonkatsu ramen like a pork ramen okay yeah that's all I need so the dish the book gives him is the junez steak which is I'll show it to you here okay yes a whole sliced steak and a side of broccoli what's funny is like I was think that was my first thing for him was just a steak but I remember that chi a loves the steak so I was like oh I'm gonna I'm gonna save the junez steak for chi a that was the right instinct I think this is a fun pick for him I agree I think he would like to eat ramen but the dish based on him is the junez steak yes it has some sesame oil on it um it looks good and it's funny this book gives them like video game stats so it says uh yields four servings the cook time is 10 minutes cooking 15 minutes resting and the difficulty is easy this is an easy meal oh according to the book I love that okay chi a yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna go with the steak skewers I guess then from the place next to the Chinese food restaurant yeah this is all so this is kind of a flip this looks like it's niku jaga I'm hoping not miss oh yeah um but it looks like it's like she were talking noodles um potatoes and carrots it's a kind of like a oh it is a noodle thing somewhere between like ramen and a stew yeah it's like noodles meat and and big like root vegetables and potatoes it looks really good yeah it is good I've had it before it's um that's an interesting one for her I guess I can understand her from the perspective of like her wanting to like take care of her body and be in fighting shape all the time like that's like a very like hearty dish that is also going to like heal you literally after a tough workout yeah and I think I think she's a very warm presence I think like uh I think this is a fitting dish for her also easy and yields four servings that's an interesting one to label as easy I I would love I'm curious about that recipe now this seems like intermediate at best for intermediate it should be yeah oh because oh so a lot of these meals have dashi in them which is like the secret ingredient to a lot of Japanese cooking yeah based on what little I know like and very easy to make for yourself also at home would recommend um it's a great book and it's also a great show salt fat acid heat yeah and in this salt episode samine goes to Japan and they talk a lot about dashi in that episode it's really good yeah moving on to yukiko yukiko yeah yukiko is interesting um oh man I feel like she would want to eat a lot of little things is the you're on the right track is the vibe I'm getting um let me let me look this up real quick uh there's there's the thing that um there's the thing that you get if you say to traditional ryokan which is like like an in I guess in Japan at a traditional ryokan they have a thing that's like a ryokan breakfast and the idea of the ryokan breakfast is like it's a very traditional Japanese breakfast and it's this like big you've definitely like seen this in media before but it's like a big square that's divided into tiny squares and each of them has like a tiny plate or like a small bowl that's filled with like one or two bites of a different kind of dish and it's usually like the whole gamut of things it's like is it kind of like dim sum in that way like sort of like a sampler's of stuff kind of but it's it's like very very very intentional and all of the it'll be like two carrots that have been pickled for like a week it'll be like one little piece of uni it'll be you know one little tiny piece of fish like a small portion of rice like it's really like little tiny stuff and and that's that's the direction that I would take yuki goes ideal dish in I like it this is definitely more basic than what you described I don't know how they would put that in the cookbook her dish is it's called tempura dinner and it's basically oh nice veggie and shrimp tempura perfect yeah so it's the photo is great yeah that also feels like something that she would be into because it's like yeah her her whole vibe is like you know she she's gonna run in in one day she has kind of like a more adult vibe like she would be like I'm gonna eat vegetables tonight but also once she starts laughing she can't start laughing and that to me feels like that I'm gonna deep fry all of it yeah it's like she's gonna deep fry all the veggies like we're technically eating vegetables exactly yeah uh she's great okay teddy congy congy is next uh his his dish made me laugh because I'm like this fits but I feel like you you did him a little dirty with this one so I'll give you that hint like it's a little bit basic um and a little bit off the beaten path which is maybe kind of how congy is but anyway what do you think his is or what would you give him and then I'll tell you what they gave him yeah I I think I might get a hole in one here but I you know we'll see I have a hunch that if you're congy you are going to the place that has the best American cheeseburger you can find that would be great uh his dish is animal crackers um it's just like literally like silhouettes of like koalas and dogs and what is the difficulty on hand crafting your own animal crackers easy okay they're out of whack here they've lost the plot of how difficult the dinner was hard which I'm like it's hard in the sense of maybe having a fryer but I feel like it's probably not that hard to actually make tempura yeah maybe it is creating a koala out of a cracker yeah that's difficult crackers okay now we're on rese this one is much better and and you could probably you might be able to get close to this one I have to assume this is a dessert am I wrong already think a recent conversation we had moments ago okay well it's gotta be tofu related then right because I mean she yes it is is in a tofu establishment what kind of tofu would she have I wonder when you can have all of the best tofu in the world what is the dish you make for yourself for me you know I'm just gonna say it's mapo tofu because I consider her to be like a you know she likes she likes tofu she works at a tofu place but also she does have like a spicy side to her you know she is the kind of person who would want a spice to it so I would say mapo tofu ding ding ding ding ding it's mapo tofu yeah it's it says mapo tofu but yeah it's uh easy as well for servings mapo tofu is pretty easy yeah dear listener go make mapo tofu at home find a recipe yeah this is actually the one where I'm like I'm absolutely making this yeah like it's gonna change your life yeah oh do you have an hmart in Chicago yeah I think we do downtown somewhere I believe they have pre this is see I'm gonna change your life right now they have pre-packaged mapo tofu packages at hmart oh god it's a it's a brand called nature's soy and it costs five dollars and it's yeah we have one looks like straight up like we got it the other day and made it lost my mind I'm like next time I go to hmart I'm buying 10 of them I'm obsessed okay teddy is next and my god is a dessert his is a dessert okay oh man fry uh no I was gonna say fried Oreos that I feel like he kind of has like a donut or fried Oreo yeah energy I'm gonna stick with fry I'm gonna stick with fried Oreos actually that's that's the vibe I get from teddy teddy parfait teddy parfait it's like granola yeah it's a cornflakes berries chocolate berries and two wafer cookies sticking out like antennas sorry I'll do it one more time berries oh my god oh they got us with that I brought you a parfait it's berry good pretty good teddy now tow now a tow oh hell yeah one hard boiled egg she would have like the the English soft boiled egg that you like dip toast him yeah yeah hers is a letter crepe it's like the challenge letter she gets oh yeah it's funny but it's like a crepe full of like cream and berries that's interesting intermediate difficulty for that one yeah well because you have to fold the crepe into literally an envelope that's all the that's all the playable characters we could do a few more if you want the like do they have like dojima and nanoco and stuff in there um here let me see they have the next ones are catchy and Marie okay and then there's like beef bowl there's actually mystery food x oh really which is very funny yeah mystery food x it looks like kind of like a borscht like beet stew yeah it's like it looks bad but it actually looks pretty good too I might have to get this cookbook also yeah I think you should there's the oh yeah there's there's a nanoco oh there's also okay so there's okay why don't we why don't we do we can do adachi Marie nanoco and dojima if you have it any so what would you give a touch what I give a dachi um all right well okay he misses the city what's the kind of thing that's easier to get in a city that's harder to get out in Inaba um I'm gonna say udon no that's not true no no because there's there's the udon shop in oh pizza cabbage roll it's like stuff that's perfect yeah apparently he has a lot there's like a line of dialogue from them in each one and it's like about how he cooked cabbage it also kind of looks like bloody in a way I think that's kind of why they went with it yeah um all right uh Marie Marie oh my god well Marie what did Marie like there was that whole oh she liked the steak skewers also right she ate them with chiay ding ding ding that's her thing really it's a daigaku steak skewers yeah look at that easy 20 minutes the beef bowl I might have to make one day yeah we got nanoco yeah nanoco nanoco would be a sushi definitely hers is a flan dish that's like a flan dessert what do you think that fits for her that's nice I just feel like every time there's like a celebratory scene nanoco's always eating sushi like it's always a big yeah she does love sushi and that's also very social I feel like she would want to have like a big social dish yeah okay dojima's is so good oh my god I need to show you the picture of this guess his first though yeah all right I know I technically guessed this for kanji but I'm actually I'm gonna go a slightly different direction for dojima I'm gonna do hamburger steak for dojima which is if you haven't had one it's literally just like a hamburger with like a demi glaze over it mystery banana and barley tea okay oh my god it's okay I need to describe what we're looking at it's three frozen bananas dipped in chocolate with icing on them with the words dad written on all three of them and a glass of ice tea that looks like a mug of beer yeah it's like the ultimate dad dish it's okay I will say barley tea oh my god I love barley tea I have some brewing in the fridge right now barley tea non-caffeinated tea they serve it with like everything you get at every restaurant in Japan hot or cold great for digestion and it tastes and is gonna sound gross but I promise you is great it tastes like if you poured water into a vessel that had recently had coffee in it no that sounds I know exactly what you're describing that sounds I actually of all the dishes I want dad bananas in that tea honestly dad bananas and barley next time you Steven I have the biggest bag of barley tea in the pantry next time you're here I'll give you barley tea we'll drink a bunch of it but yeah this cookbook is fun there's some good stuff in here and like there's obviously for three and four there's dishes for them as well we could do a whole episode on just this cookbook I think so but I just wanted to go through the four characters together love it there's obviously like the curry from Leblanc cafe yeah that uh I need to make one day too I do want to make that that was my prop comedy in case you were wondering it was perfect I loved it that was what a great segment that was okay this is a almost everyone asked a version of this question so I kind of just combined them yeah favorite and least favorite social link so we kind of we focused I think rightfully so on the main plot and the main characters so all the party members obviously have s-links but there are also s-links for a lot of non-plastic playable characters some of which are like completely disconnected from the main game yeah I don't feel the need to go through all of them because this episode is already long enough but I think we can just do like favorite and least favorite I'll say quickly for me I think my favorites I also think we could maybe talk I know we'd want to talk a little bit more about like resays and a few of them so we could have that discussion here if you like but just answer the question my favorites for the party I think are probably I think conju's is my favorite for the party members I would say though overall like despite my issues with some of them I think the party members have relatively solid social links I find that persona 3 4 and 5 broadly speaking most social links are fine to good a handful are great and then a handful you want to avoid at all costs like it's always kind of that ratio yeah so I'd say my my the ones that I found to be like that was a little beautiful like I think the appeal of the social links for me is largely for like mechanical reasons we're like watching them in isolation versus getting them as a treat for your efforts as a player is very different like if you're just to watch conju's on youtube versus like getting fed throughout the game like you you deciding to use your precious time to check in with someone and getting a little bit more of a window into their personal life it's a very different feeling which goes back to like playing this game versus watching it or hearing about it yeah which maybe defeats the purpose of this episode but I digress you're in too deep folks you can't get out you already press play the two I hadn't seen before that I really loved were I actually was very surprised by the basketball s-link with co because with the strength social link you you do soccer or basketball I had done soccer the first time I played and that one is just like whatever like it's I mentioned that I get the theme of it but like the whole thing is like he's nervous around girls because like he had a bad breakup it's like whatever it's fine wow I I hard disagree with that but I keep going you like that one I really like that one yeah okay I mean I don't hate it it's definitely not like one of the ones I avoid you don't have to walk it back just because I like it but I will say I don't I don't I agree with the like he's nervous around girls bit like that's whatever the thing that really does work for me specifically is uh his his and I think I think the basketball player which you're about to talk about and also the the band the girl in band they have the most like high schooler feeling about their vibe like the the things that they're exploring their social links is like taking the theme of the game and applying it like point blank to what it's like to be a high schooler the idea that the soccer players whole thing is like I can't give it my all like I I feel like I'm out of remove despite being like I could be the best soccer player on the team and everybody's looking up to me but by giving myself completely over to the experience of playing soccer I'm like putting myself in emotional danger is an experience that like everyone has in high school about something yeah and I mentioned that one earlier in the episode because I love that idea of like it's better to give it your all and fall on your face than to not try yes and I think applying that to to romance as well was makes sense where that lands I really like and I also really like the friendship between the three of them like I like how even the other one you don't choose shows up to like hang out with you too and co like really is like hey he's not in a good way like we got to do something about him the thing where it doesn't work and I think this is probably what you clocked into and maybe honed in on is specifically the fact that like the the bad breakup he had that caused this for him happened like in middle school where I'm like yeah that's where I was I can't nothing's real in middle school yeah like even in high school I don't think I was like man in seventh grade that's where it all went downhill for me but otherwise I agree and I like I like them as characters yeah me too co though like the basketball story is is really intense because it's about how he's from this like very powerful very wealthy family who adopted him and they kind of look down on his interests and they thought basketball was like a waste of time and so he's at this weird place where like he feels pressure to do what they expected of him but he loves basketball and then there's this twist where like he finds out they're actually okay with him doing basketball because the pressure of being the heir of this family is now on his sister who is like you know biologically related to them so he starts to feel like nothing I do matters because they don't give a shit about me because I was adopted yes and um it ends with him seeking out his adoptive family and getting a letter that like tells him like who his family like it doesn't say who they were but it like is sort of this letter that was like we loved you and wanted you to live a healthy life but then he sees that it was like written by someone who worked at the orphanage that because like there was actually no record of them but they didn't want him to know that so they like and he basically takes that as like I don't need to know who they are because the people actually in my life matter more yes and I was like that's a really interesting place to land for this story you know like and to realize that like his adoptive family also loves him regardless of what like that's the more obvious ending but him not finding any closure and being like that is actually the closure I needed to just like be comfortable not knowing and just focus on who is actually with me I thought that was a really nice story um I also really liked the kid you tutor um you like yes uh most of the s things where you get a job are truly a nightmare like the two of the worst in the game or one of the worst of the game is working at the hospital yeah that one I oh my god I I did max that one out and I I don't want to say I regret it but like it just it felt aimless like it's it starts in one place spends this is actually my issue with like social links in general as a like a form of storytelling um is that so frequently they kind of devolve actually the tutoring one does do this but it's so good that doesn't matter but you spend like five ranks focused on one thing three ranks focus on another thing and then we get closure on a third unrelated thing and that's just kind of how the hospital one goes and sometimes you get closure at like rank eight and then the next two ranks are like I'm still thinking about the rest of my life but um the kid you tutor he's like his mom is like he's the best boy he's the best smartest and he's the cutest and he's the best child the mother could ask for but she's also like but if he gets into a good college like he's set right that's all he needs to worry about and like um he is obviously like there's a lot of pressure put on him to like get perfect grades and he's like the top of his class but he's clearly deeply insecure and he's also a lot younger than you like he's in middle school and it leads to a place where he like starts to really confide in you but also starts to doubt like is this actually a path I want to be on I'm not really passionate about anything I don't really have that many friends in school and then there's a new kid in class who like is actually better at him in school and like basically you as like a middle schooler this this kid who shows up this like you know kind of his enemy who shows up yes right and uh there's even dialogue where you could be like that's kind of like me but he ends up getting suspended for cheating just because of the pressure on him and like he's in a really bad place and that's that's the birthday party I mentioned earlier where like his mom is like you're not my son anymore and then leaves yeah while it's his birthday yeah it's brutal um but then you can throw a party for him like you call yo skate and like immediately everyone shows up to throw him a party yeah and like it kind of feels like when we were younger like there would always be like one or two like young adults that were there to like hype up the party like hey like who's having fun like it feels like like re say this showed up to like throw a birthday party for you like but uh what I loved is like you know he's clearly like a little nervous but they're all like yeah happy birthday and like let's have fun and then he says like I shouldn't have been born just like out of nowhere and then it's so brutal yeah they all just call him stupid like one after another everyone's like shut the fuck up yeah and like they're like of course you should have been born like you you matter your life matters it's really sweet and it's really um you know I think it's it's relatable too because I mean especially where we grew up like we grew up in a pretty wealthy area and like intelligence was synonymous with good test scores for a lot of people right and where you went to school was like our class like on average like a graduating class from our school like a few like a dozen or so people would go to Ivy League schools and like it wasn't a big deal whereas like that was a big eye-opener for me like when I went to college at Rutgers which was a great school but like is way more economically diverse where like there were people who were like valid Victorians whose first choice was Rutgers because it was like the best school that they could also afford and like for people from towns who like if a kid got into an Ivy League the whole town would like throw a parade you know and like yes for our town it was like yeah whatever good job we get a cool sweatshirt out of it right I feel like I went through my own version of what this kid did we're like I was I was an okay student like I was kind of like a B student like I was really good at the classes I cared about and I didn't really try in the other classes and so I was with in class with people who like really really really cared about their grades and I felt kind of like I didn't feel like I was intelligent until I went to college and I realized oh that's all kind of bullshit you know like test scores mean you're good at taking the SATs and not much else yeah so no this this whole little vignette I think was really sweet and kind of spoke to the more successful themes of the game where it's like just focusing on being the best at one thing and disconnecting yourself from the rest of life is not how to live yeah even when you're you know at this point in your life yeah I I mean I'm usually very open on this podcast I'm I'm gonna play some I'm gonna play this a little bit closer to the vest that I then I usually wear so I don't feel the need to divulge everything into podcast form but I will say that the experience of dropping out of college specifically and moving back home for a little bit was very very dark for the reasons that basically shoe is like going through it in this S-link yeah so going through that bit in particular was like dagger to the heart like just threw me back however long it's been 10 15 years to that bit of like dropping out of college and like I specifically remember going to a Christmas party that somebody in town through it was like like an adults Christmas party and it was like me at this party with the parents of everyone I knew and like went to high school with and they were all telling me about like you know their kids like out at whatever schools they were at and just being like hit over the head over and over and over again with like so what are you up to like why are you here like what's what's going on what are you doing you know obviously people were home for the holidays and stuff but they're you know the the look on everybody's face when I told them I dropped out and joined a band was like like getting like punched in the face like over and over and over again at this Christmas party and I think I think about that night all the time well not as much anymore but I used to think about that night all the time so this social link in particular was really like that's when I say like you know for the most part it's basically him just being like I'm better than everyone else in my school and there's this one kid who I find really annoying I was like all right I don't everyone tells me this social link is good and I don't believe it and then and then you get to like rank eight when this happens and I was like yeah fuck I get it I understand this is like this is one of the ones that I would recommend people do if they haven't played brazona and I feel like this is a good example when we talk about cozy games and how we kind of bristle at that word and we talk about examples of games that are trying to provide a sense of place and a sense of comfort if they're too saccharine and artificial our mind kind of rejects it even as comfort food because it feels so fake and I feel like this game is comforting because it has stuff like this in it yes you know like I think about a show maybe a weird comparison but a show like Gilmore Girls is a show that a lot of people rewatch and kind of is weirdly similar where it's like life in a small town where like things go wrong never quite to the murder mystery degree but it's like that's a show that does tackle like real things and the characters have real conflicts and like there's a deep there's a lot of deeply flawed characters in that show who are like unable to show affection properly but it's comforting to rewatch because like it does provide you with a place that feels it's at the perfect balance of fantasy and reality where it's like the fantasy of like having this place that is comforting familiar that has relatable problems that you can overcome together you know like in some ways that is kind of the fantasy as well of like these are all things that I can relate to and that like maybe remind me of past pain and trauma but like there's comfort in being able to resolve it with this cast that I've grown to love totally yeah so yeah I really liked the tutor s-link I would say in terms of his best writing I think the two that stand out and I'm probably not alone in thinking this are Naoki, Sokki's brother who is mourning his sister who was murdered that one's really good and it kind of like helps paint a wider picture of like what life in this town is like because his family owns the liquor store that is kind of competitors with Junaise because it is this like mom and pop business and so like he is sort of going through the same thing Yosuke is we're like he has to just like carry on and work at the family business even though he's like deeply mourning the loss of his sister and he also kind of resents everyone in town because they're always like looking at him and judging him this is really sad moment where like he finally opens up to you and is laughing and two people walk by and they're like how could this guy laugh his sister's dead like what a cold hearted jerk and he's like people aren't happy unless I'm constantly miserable right yeah the bit where he talks about how there's like significantly increased foot traffic at the liquor store for the first time since Junaise opened just because Saki passed away he's like the business can't thrive on people pitying us it's kind of the core of that he's like it's just it's like performative like what everybody's doing here is performative and you know anyone who has ever felt grief in any way shape or form like you you see straight through that kind of performative grief in some ways you know what I mean like when you're in the thick of it it's hard to see that kind of stuff as like helpful or nice or people being thoughtful at all because you're just like I'm fucking miserable how on earth am I supposed to believe that like you have my best intentions at heart you know like you're just doing this to show other people that you're doing this when in reality I think a lot of those people were really trying to help right but like when you're sitting next to him at the the Chinese food restaurant eating noodles like of course that's how he's going to think about it at that moment yeah and I just think it's one of the few S-links other than Yosuke's that actually grapples with murders happening like you can kind of almost forget that that's like what the plot is about with a lot of these S-links I thought his was excellent and it's one of the harder ones to unlock unfortunately but like it's worth seeing through I also really really liked um Hisano the the grieving widow yeah who you can only meet at the riverbank on holidays yes it's weird that they lock the two best S-links behind like weird stuff but she basically is like oh you remind me of my husband and like she the early S-links are just her like telling you about her life as a younger woman and falling in love and then it's revealed that like at a certain point her husband got sick and it's implied that he had some kind of dementia because he forgot who she was and it's really heavy it's basically about how like she took care of him uh after he was ill and he forgot who she was every day and she began to resent him and and literally almost tried killing him yeah and is so guilty about that that she now just calls herself death and like assumes that she's gonna go to hell and that her you know that she will forever be separated from her husband I would imagine this is also based on a myth of some kind like it just feels like you know handing out by a river and like this particular tale feels very like mythological to me but like basically you help her get over her loss and she decides to move in with her kids and like similar to nowky kind of just like focuses on on the present and and you know doesn't forget those who she's lost but like focuses on what she still has yeah it's it's really touching and it's like one of the heavier S-links in persona honestly like I was not expecting it to go that far even though she you know dresses like a widow the whole time yeah but I thought I think that like nowky and Hisano are probably the two like best like you can actually watch these on youtube and like get the same catharsis from right yeah whereas I think some of the other ones kind of depend on like you do kind of need to have the context of the rest of the game yeah I would say that those two are most similar to the dying man from persona three yeah absolutely the band one I'll also shout out not because I think it's great but because I think it's like a great encapsulation of teenage life the whole idea behind this one is really just like you join the band this girl plays trombone and she sits next to you in the horn section the guy who is like the trombone lead in the band breaks his arm right before like the big the big show that everybody's supposed to play and she now has to fill in as the trombone lead and like has all of this stuff where like she doubts herself she doubts her ability to do it and then you convince her to like push through and practice and try hard and like get there and you can you can do it you can be the lead drum bonus for this big show and uh the day of the big show comes and the guy who broke his arm shows up he's like it turns out it wasn't a break it was just a sprain and I'm healed and I'm back and I'm here and everyone in the band is like well why don't you just take your spot back then like have you been practicing he's like yep I could do it perfectly and then he takes over and she's like all that work for nothing what was me what do I do and like that bit in particular I was just like this is so fucking high school dude this is like exactly this is like such a high school thing it's like I worked my ass off for this trombone solo and now I can't even do it I was like hell yeah man um I don't I don't love that s-link but I do love that bit the the drama story is a bit darker it's like largely about like her mom being sick if I remember correctly but uh you're like in the hospital a lot for for uh I think it's yuki who does the drama but regardless when you're just about like you know high school stress high school problems I remember like doing theater and being like I've successfully gaslit myself into like placing my validation on getting like ice cream barbershop member number three yeah I was like right I don't get that and it's the end of the world's like did I really want to go ice cream on stage like not really um what were your least favorite now we've done favorite what were uh I would say probably the nurse I think the nurse is just like uncomfortable to watch yeah the nurse is pretty rough for most of it you do you do start to sympathize with her towards the end yeah that's true you know I mean like her whole thing is about overwork essentially like she's given herself completely over to her job to the point where she's like passing out at work and then you know she's a nurse at a hospital and then becomes a patient at the hospital because she's overworked herself so much like there's some interesting stuff there definitely but they spend the first like no joke like five or six ranks of that s-link being like are you a sweet little high school boy it's like oh fuck get away from me what are you talking about that's what I mean yeah it's like I don't know why that is the beginning of this s-link um but it sure is this honestly and and I think this is probably where you and I differ and this is where Matt Horton and I align in the stars is you should go watch that video we've shouted out a million times you should definitely watch it yeah it'll be in the show notes I actually think I think most of the party members don't really work for me s-link wise with a few except like I think I think now it does is great I think kanji's is great I think the way risae's ends I think the way yosuke's ends and I think honestly most of chi-e's uh and honestly kind of yukiko to a certain degree like I I feel like they're they they feel like they run counter to what the game is trying to tell you like that's the thing that really gets me about them is there is this feeling like yukiko for example the whole thing is about how she feels this pressure that she has to take over the amagi in she's like I am I have other interests I have other things I want to do I don't want to stay in this town forever I want to go explore I want to move to a big city I want to like get into cooking you know the the chefs that in are teaching me how to cook I want to like go to a big city I want to cook and simultaneously she's also being like hounded by the press because there are murders that happen at the amagi in and there's like people making like a shitty documentary about her and and the and the end and about how she's gonna like take over this like bloody in and stuff and there are so many great reasons for her to not be here anymore like it is actually in her best interest I think to not take over the in and to like break from the family and be like I I need to find my own identity I need to be myself and instead she decides that the herself that she needs to be is the one that is running the amagi in specifically because of the late game reveal that her family wasn't putting this pressure on her at all she was putting all this pressure on herself which I think that is interesting don't get me wrong but I don't think it excuses the idea that like the thing I've spent the past six months of the video game telling you I don't want to do I actually want to do now I feel similarly about Risse where like she's escaping what is like a pretty hostile and probably like dangerous not in like a literal like death way but dangerous and like probably a mental health and an image way job and is like I need to figure out who I am and then ends it basically succumbing to the pressure of being jealous of somebody else and then rejoins that industry did not feel good like that I love her character so much and that ending for her in particular I was like not thrilled by yeah I don't want to just keep railing on them but like I just I felt I felt let down pretty significantly by the ways the party members are treated in their S-links I get it Yozef's in particular I think really suffers from the cut content because his feels like it's about eight different things and then ends up being about nothing at the end of the day like there's interesting stuff about how people hate him because he is the son of the person who opened the Junis there are interesting things about how he's depressed and grieving because of sake because he had feelings for her and she was his co-worker and he like really thought that like she was like the anchor to Inaba for him like she was the reason he was enjoying living in this place that he didn't want to be in the first place there's all this interesting stuff going on and then it all culminates in like you and I should fight because I'm jealous of you which is like what are we fucking doing here yeah I agree I agree that Yosuke is definitely the one that suffers from like I don't know if it was like a bunch of read writes or I mean there's the cut content of course his is messy for sure um she is just kind of I think overtly overly simple you know like she kind of starts and ends in the same spot and then where she ends is like I'm gonna be a cop which is like all right yeah that that's the jump scare the epilogue I I think her actual s-link is like fine it just I think for a lot of the party members I enjoy the like random hangout sessions more than the s-link exactly this is my point yes yeah um I think I'm a little bit kinder and this is not to debase your read I think I have a slightly different read on Yukiko and Rise in particular um I agree that like I think Naoto and Kanji it's ironic that like the two characters that the main game mishandles the most have the best s-links which to me speaks to a confused script um but I actually liked Rise's s-link a lot because at least for me I didn't read her decision to re-enter show business purely out of jealousy that is a piece of it like they mentioned like yeah I definitely I definitely put a little bit too much weight on that because there is the bit where she's like Rise and reset are the same you know we're like fusing back into one person yeah I mean I've like um I guess I've been in it like I'm not an idol but I've I've like as someone who has like done a lot of theater and done a lot of different projects I have placed my sense of identity on two projects and I've had to make decisions to stop do like you know I don't perform nearly as much as I I don't really go on stage at all anymore my sort of main performance outlet is largely this show which I love doing and kind of is me in a lot of ways like you know we're aware that we're being recorded and we wanted to be enjoyable to listen to but we're not putting on a persona we're literally just being ourselves but I I often even you know right now where I feel like I have kind of three main projects going on I often think like should I be doing this should I be doing more of this should I stop doing this in efforts of only doing this one pursuit and like sometimes my decision to stop doing something is more rooted in I try to gauge like if I have a desire to stop doing something I care about that I identify with is that decision coming from a place of I actually no longer have the interest in this or is it a temptation of wouldn't it be easier to not worry about this anymore you know right yeah and I think with with Risae I think that's how I read it is I read it as like I love doing this and having lived a certain amount of time not doing it I realized that like I both things can be true I can be this persona and I can also be the real me and they don't invalidate each other and perhaps my decision to leave was more rooted in like getting away from it all versus actually not wanting to do the thing anymore yeah I do think there is that beat they did choose to add the like there's a new idol on the way so like you can read it the way you did but I think her decision to go back I found to be really inspiring honestly and with Yukiko I think it's a little bit more gray for me I think they needed to give her like if she has other interests outside of running the inn I would have loved to see them yes like if she does want to cook like I would love to see like Gordon Ramsay Yukiko like we were robbed of kitchen nightmares of the Yukiko that would be so fun yeah so I feel like I like the fact that it's like oh me thinking my family assumed a certain way was actually a voice in my head because we've all had that we've all like assumed that someone in our life is actually thinking something and acted on that assumption rather than actually having a conversation about it so like her landing in a place where it's like I have the option now is cool but I think we needed to know like well who who is Yukiko outside of the inn because like we only really know her as the inn girl yes most of the game right so that's I think the the bigger issue for me is like I want to know more about her and less about the the inn itself yeah yeah I feel I I definitely see coming from on on both of those I think for me it really is like a a case of I think these characters get handled better in the main plot than they do in their own S-links which is just like a strange a strange kind of juxtaposition I think especially as you're saying when you when you compare Kanji Nautou in particular but yeah those those ones in particular I think uh Risae and Yukiko and and Yosuke like really stuck out to me as actually just my least favorite ones throughout the course of it like I kind of trusted that the game was taking me into a better place with them and then it kind of didn't she and just not to dunk on Gae too much Gae's really does feel like very kind of bland because she's like I want to protect everyone in town and then there's like a kid that she you know needs to protect from some bullies and then like doesn't at first and then does later and then ends up being like I want to protect everyone in town uh and not just Yukiko which and I'm like I want so much more from this character like I think I think there's so much rich stuff we could have explored with her we know nothing about her home life for example like we don't yeah you know like there's so much that we could be learning about Gae that we don't yeah it does feel very surface level um I think the best S-links in Persona either give you like additional context or another side of the character like for I mean compared to like I think one of my favorites in three is Yukaris and it's like you get so much more about her home life and her relationship with her mom and like it's so good it's Yukaris one of the best okay let's move on because we've got a lot of questions here if you're ready uh this is a fun compliment to the section we just did this is from Neo Geo Pocket and Discord dream and or nightmare blunt rotation of party members and S-links they put nightmare in here because they want us to put Teddy in nightmare but I will I will resist that temptation I will resist you're leading the witness Teddy joins the dream blunt rotation absolutely yeah I think my my first thought is Risae Nato Kanji for dream rotation I don't see Kanji handling weed well though no I think you're probably right right I actually think Teddy might be the better pick I also think Yosuke would get very paranoid as well I think that's you I think Nato would be an extremely fucking good hang though yeah she would open up about like a secret passion like it would be revealed she's like really into model trains or something and I feel like you would hear all about it yeah and Risae is like already a pro at this um so I feel like the three of them would be a lot of Teddy now tell me say would be such a fun rotation nightmare is definitely King Moron Adachi King Moron Adachi and Dojima in the distance like about to bust you all yeah I think nightmare is just me in the big eyeball do this fog is really hitting the humans demand fog the humans demand big clouds oh my god well we nailed it the official aether dream rotation is Teddy would you also say Risae Nato for the other two yeah I agree with you I love it yeah that's perfect Lex and discord are there any social things you think would fit better into a different arcana if the game didn't have to avoid duplicates and make sure all major arcana were accounted for so in in addition to some of the personas like reflecting like mythology and folklore and religious stories all the S-lings are tied to a major arcana card of tarot so like Kanji is the emperor Risae is lovers that kind of thing and for the most part I've actually like I was gonna write a piece for my newsletter about like how persona interprets tarot and kind of see like how much thought was given to like each character and each card for the most part like they match pretty well yeah like actually one of my favorites is like um Shoe is the kid's name right the tutor um his is the tower and the tower is like all about like sort of reality like the floor kind of falling apart beneath you and it's it's the one card that is sort of unambiguously bad but there's also a degree to the tower that's like whatever was destroyed had to be in some way like what was destroyed was a construct of your own making I mean in in tarot it's quite literally like the tower of babble so like I think for Shoe's story it's like yes getting suspended was awful but he needed to learn that like the way he was living life was not the right path and if he didn't get off that path it would have led to worse things down the road yeah in terms of if I think any of them I actually have a I didn't think this initially but this question made me think I actually without even thinking about duplicates and stuff I think I would switch three of them so I think the three that are a little bit odd to me are the music and theater characters are the sun uh Nanako is justice yes and Naoto is wheel of fortune I actually think it would make more sense for Nanako to be the sun for Naoto to be justice and for the music and drama duo to be wheel of fortune in terms of like what those cards represent I don't okay I don't know what wheel of fortune represents but I think for the listener maybe explain what all three of those represent yeah so justice is what it sounds like yeah that one's what it says on the team wheel of fortune is kind of similar to death and that they're both about cycles so like the tower is like the destruction of a conch a construct um but death is usually more about rebirth and that's why I think you know death is central to the identity of persona three and if you interpret death the way tarot does or the way you can interpret in tarot most commonly is like every character kind of lets go of how they used to see themselves and embraces a new way of seeing themselves um the wheel of fortune is more about like the highs and lows of life like it's sort of like sort of this idea that like similar to death there are cycles that must begin and end but whereas I think death is largely seen as like a necessary and positive transition the wheel of fortune is sort of like the chaos of the universe okay and I think with sometimes you get the trombone solo sometimes you don't get the trombone solo sometimes you get the lead sometimes you don't and uh with it also I think I think the wheel of fortune also deals with like transformations and like evolution so it does kind of fit but I think now to having justice just fits way more cleanly to me than wheel of fortune you know and I think the sun is if the tower is like the unambiguous bad card in terms of like oof look out the sun is like it all worked out man like the sun is just a very positive card and I feel like Nanako is like a constant ray of light in the game yeah so I feel like uh you know I think just that would work more cleanly in my opinion it works the way it is um but I think uh I feel like that would make more sense in my opinion yeah nice that was just your say I have no I have no way of answering that because I don't know that was just for me that was just let's even be a beautiful mind for a second that was from Lex from the Trails with Trails podcast and if you ever wondered how she and I talked to each other it's basically that question okay this is uh also from Neo Geo Pocket as someone who has only played the vanilla versions of the Persona games but has always been interested in checking out golden or royal what is the experience of replaying a Persona game like I feel like such a big part of the calendar system is that you have to live one day at a time and accept that your plans won't necessarily work out the way you expect alternatively how much did you feel you need how much did you feel the need to optimize your run versus just following your heart yeah I feel like you've answered a pretty good degree of that first bit about like the replaying of golden and royal but do you have anything else you want to add to what you've already said about that I think they're surprisingly fun to replay given how long they are like I feel like there are some games like Trails in the Sky is a game that I love but I probably won't replay outside of playing the remake yeah um because I just feel like it took me so long to get through and I was just like grateful to have the experience behind me um and there's so many other games I have to play in that series whereas Persona is like a pretty breezy time despite how long it is I think that's partially due to how just addicting the gameplay loop is like it does have that civilization you know one more turn one more day kind of feel to it yeah um and I think the way that three four and five are designed is that like you will probably pick up on some new things each time you play it and focus on different things have different characters in your party maybe even see a different ending depending on what you did last time um in terms of optimization I'm I'm pretty for myself I'm pretty adamant that like the game is the most fun when you make the choice yourself I feel like uh min maxing Persona kind of defeats the point of it for me I do know people who do that and they enjoy doing it so I feel like it's a subjective thing where like if you really want to make sure you don't miss anything on your first run there are guides that will help you but I think for the most part I just like seeing where I end up kind of gravitating towards yeah I mentioned this um in an earlier episode talking about Persona 4 um in the lead up to this one but I started this game following a very intense guide for the first like maybe three or four weeks of the in-game calendar um which I found to be really really helpful and I would actually recommend to other people to maybe do as a way of kind of onboarding yourself into what's possible in this game like it'll just introduce you to systems you didn't know where at play it'll give you some like helpful stuff like pick up this book on day three maybe start with this as link as soon as possible and like just do it as much as you possibly can um but then after that I just stopped following those kinds of guides until I got more towards the end specifically um you know I think it's worth mentioning like the experience of playing a game for this show isn't always the experience that you will have playing a game for yourself and uh for this episode in particular I really wanted to see the golden root like I wanted to get I wanted to see the final true ending I wanted to be able to speak to it and I wanted that to be my experience which meant that I needed to look some stuff up along the way um just to make sure I was like following you know or I guess like I was doing the right things by the right time um and that meant that there were some things that I probably wouldn't have prioritized that I ended up prioritizing uh but honestly and maybe this feeds back into the first question it gets me excited about replaying the game again knowing like I've already done the true ending now I can replay it again and do literally whatever I want and see the other social links and get that fucking bug net before January and just like have have a really true experience honestly that's kind of what I'm doing with Persona 5 right now like the first two times I tried playing Persona 5 I like really was kind of min-maxing it because I really didn't know what I was doing so I was like reliant on other people's experience to get me through it and this time around I feel like I have such a good foundational understanding of how Persona works that I'm like I know which social links I need to max out to get into the royal stuff everything else is kind of gravy like I I feel like I'm pretty good at this at this point the nice thing also about golden royal and also reload specifically is like the ability to see what other people have done like you can connect to the internet and it gives you like you know a screen that shows you what the most common things everybody else is picking are so it does help you out in the sense that like sometimes you'll press that button and uh you'll see a bunch of stuff that's like you know eight at the chinese food place hung out with yosuke but then you'll see like hung out with hisano and you'll be like who the fuck is hisano I've never met anybody named hisano and that will just lead you down a path of being like all right well I'm gonna walk around the entire town I'm gonna talk to all these NPCs I'm gonna see if there's anything new or weird around town and find out who this person is and maybe that will lead me down a new path and I think that's the most interesting way to play Persona is like there is the following a guide version but there is also the version where you just rely on the thing they literally put in the game to point you in the right direction and allow your curiosity to take you there yeah I like making an informed decision be like okay like what yeah I think that that system is so brilliant to add that to golden and that's also kind of present in the other modern persona games as well um to see like what everyone did that day I hope that sticks around in Persona 6 or the remake I'm sure it will yeah um okay this from Ashley in discord favorite vocal performance um they're all really good as we've talked about already I was gonna count down we were both going to say the same name at the same time okay you want to try that ready three two one kanji yo-suke oh oh you had the japanese voice cast and I listened to primarily the english one I know we're like mixed you're low and fall right was was yosuke in the english voice cast yeah he he's so good as yosuke and he makes me like that performance makes me like yosuke more than I think I would have otherwise that's why I would give it to him because I'm like he's really good as that character I think he he he has sort of a goofy demeanor but he really sells the moments where he has to be like full of rage or like full of sadness like he's got a great range I also really really like Laura Bailey as we say she does such a good job as her yeah um I mean there's a lot of big names in this cast so like they're all very good at what they do like Troy Baker obviously is like a very established voice actor I think it's worth noting that almost none of them are coming back for the remake also like none of them have been asked they're they're they're they're probably a little bit too old to do these voices still probably too big at this point also that's right yeah I mean same deal with um three reload as well like they didn't bring the original voice cast back for that either although it was kind of fun they did a little like I imagine they'll do something similar where like the original voice of akihiko played the cop who sells you weapons yes I wonder if they'll do like I don't know something like that where like one of the original cast does like one of the s-links or something yeah um that could be fun but uh Troy Baker is not old by any stretch I just mean like they probably can't sell the teenage voice quite as well as like almost 20 years ago right um but yeah really good performances across the board secondary awards tied for teddy and nonico in my eyes yeah nonico is also a great one I will say I um I understand to a certain degree why so many people dislike teddy based on the way the english voice acting is performed I do like that as well I think it works it's very funny to me his japanese voice actor though is fucking killer like so good he's doing something really bold with that I remember I I heard him at the game show clip and I was like this this feels like the real teddy to me yeah I've been seeing shadow teddy this whole time yeah this is from Matt Horan another Matt reference in this episode thank you Matt for all your for all you do persona Matt golden Matt it is almost eight o'clock uh Matt asks for eight hours Stephen Matt asks and we did take a long break for lunch we took a 45 minute break so sorry it's been seven hours and 15 minutes how long is this episode I have no idea not that long probably probably like five hours yeah all right Matt Horan asks and discord which boss there's always a point in long episode like this where I'm just like oh this is just like my life now like this is just like every day is like talking about this game um which boss has the best visual design mechanical design has a follow-up question and then also what is the best track on the soundtrack and why is it snowflakes oh man so best visual design for a boss best mechanical design for a boss and then best track on the soundtrack I gotta I this is gonna be a surprise to people I gotta go with the big eyeball for best boss design for visual design it's stuck with you I can't stop thinking about the big eyeball like I I remember even when it was at Perseus was playing Slade the Spire on the couch and I just kept being like I can't believe I'm fighting a big fucking eyeball and she was like that's nice honey that's nice honey I really like um I really like the weird Namatama angel with the peace and love t-shirt that's probably my favorite huge bobblehead visual yeah yeah I think my favorite mechanical boss is probably Mitsuo's the like dragon quest one where you have to like yeah wait until you've like erased the hero form and then attack the like weird baby yeah and then soundtrack actually do you have a mechanical boss before I do soundtrack not off the top of my head honestly I can't yeah nothing really comes to mind where I'm like that was a cool fight they don't really change it up that much like the only ones that I think are dramatically different are like Mitsuo, Marie's and Izanami yeah yeah what is the best track on the soundtrack I think the one I've listened to like I will put on a four-hour extended version on YouTube and not think twice about it being on is signs of love so I think that's my pick yeah as one of the best is like after school songs if you're asking me to pick between heartbreak heartbreak or heartbeat heartbreak specialists sky full of stars signs of love and snowflakes like gun to my head I'll take the bullet that's why you love persona three so much yeah I'm not this I can't you can't make me choose between those five songs wow yeah they're all I mean it's a great would you say this is your can you choose between game soundtracks like would you say three four or five has the best soundtrack overall I gotta give it to five I think it's five too I think I mean I never got sick of hearing last surprise yeah I did kind of get sick of hearing time to make history real I will admit I do like Rita to the truth better as a battle theme yeah um yeah I'm the same way beneath the mask specifically like I could listen beneath the mask from now until the day I die and be fine I'm obsessed with it and honestly like replaying persona five right now I can't stop thinking about what the soundtrack for persona six is going to sound like I'm like I'm so excited just to get a new soundtrack from this team you have nothing else that it's worth it just for that I mean obviously there'll be other reasons but like even if the game is bad for some reason a new soundtrack is still worth it and also I'll be real like the one of my favorite elements of persona three reload in comparison to the originals is the fact that they've reinterpreted some songs for the soundtrack and now you just have all of these great different versions of the soundtrack like it does yeah regardless of how you feel about like each specific reinterpretation and how it works in that game in particular the fact that like we now just have this tapestry of different versions of these songs is really great I really like um color your night from reload that's like my favorite love it's so good love that version of it yeah it's really good yeah it's great cool thank you Matt for those questions um oh speaking of music brittle moon and discord oh you'll love this one can you guys assign an era appropriate album to each of the p4g party members bonus points for all confidence but that would probably be too much yeah that will that that will take us way too late into the day so let's stick to party members so if we're doing era appropriate this is what late 2000s early 2010s yeah okay I do have a playlist literally called 2007 which is great which is gonna be great for referencing um all right let's just go down the fucking crew let's start let's start with yosuke what's yosuke listening yosuke is listening I think correct me if i'm wrong I think yosuke is listening to block party I yeah I think so I think he's I think yosuke's got a good ear for like what's gonna be good to listen to like while I'm working or to put on at junez that is like interesting but it's not gonna like distract anybody and block party is like a really like good like it's a there I don't want to say it's like a crowd pleaser but it's like they're very easy to listen to but they're like just interesting enough to kind of catch your attention I think I think silent alarm by block party one of the old timers uh it's great yeah I love I love is that with banquet and helicopter yeah yeah it's a great album so good okay so yosuke's block party what's chi a listening to chi a I mean the question for me is which one of them is the ska choice and I feel like chi is real big fish I think chi a might I think this is maybe not error appropriate but I think she's a wu tang clan fan I love that I feel like she loves kung fu and I feel like she would really like I think she'd be really into 36 chambers wu tang clan just in general but especially that album I love that yeah yuki ko yuki ko what is yuki ko listening to I think oh you know who was big at the time perfect uh she is on repeat on her new iPod listening to one two three four by feist that works for me love that love an immediate choice so we got yosuke chi and you could go now it's time for teddy of course it's a teddy might have to be the ska choice he's a good ska choice if he's not listening to animal collective or grizzly bear he's listening to ska I feel like yeah I feel like uh keys be knights by catch 22 is a good teddy album that's really good it's a little bit loud and it's a little bit annoying but it's very sincere and that's kind of teddy's whole thing I love that I don't know I also maybe uh no I like I like this too much let's move on all right who's next kanji kanji yeah okay so definitely I feel like there's I feel like at the drive-in or mars valta would be a decent pick for him I think so too I was going to say white stripes I actually think that's a little bit too mainstream for him yeah maybe D lau's in the combatorium uh or yeah I think that's I think that's got to be it I love that that's really good yeah who's next now to no uh be rese I'll have resees next oh my god uh definitely something really poppy and upbeat yeah I mean this is the beginning of the era but but not too obvious is okay I was gonna say this is the beginning of the era of rihanna like this is like umber oh okay like umbrella and stuff like I feel like that's really good I think I think she would like rihanna for sure I think so too I think she would get really into rihanna like she would be early to rihanna you know what I mean yes exactly right also that's the year that uh the sweet escape by Gwen Stefani came out oh yeah also or and furgalicious as well but I think she'd be early to rihanna I think she'd be the only person singing umbrella I think when rese has too much a drink she does an awful furgalicious karaoke I could see like her PR team like no don't do it like get her off stage immediately yeah and I think now to now to I feel like might be the white stripes pick actually she can be I think that's right yeah um that or maybe postal service oh actually that works for like her outfit like she kind of has like a mail carrier and also the fact that she keeps receiving strange letters yeah I think postal service for now to is good I can see her loving such great heights that's a very yeah of the era song too is that all of them yeah I'm Marie I guess we could we could do Marie oh my god I've been waiting the whole time to figure out who's listening to the black parade by my chemical romance it's Marie nailed it nailed it that was fun thank you for that for that prompts Brady on blue sky what arcana do you guys resonate with could be in general or in relationship to the archetypes uh comparative foils of the characters that represent them in the series so you can answer this without really knowing like much about tarot because I feel like like the chariot for example is always a character like chiye like Ryuji is the chariot even the chariot in persona three is like kind of a head there it's always the jocks like the head first jocks who are into like track and field yeah is there an archetype that kind of resonates with you I usually like I really like the chariot characters honestly I feel like I usually end up really liking what is onato's wheel of fortune yeah I don't know there's a stand at one I but I would say if there is it's probably the chariot him has the best track record across all three games for me yeah I think I was I was gonna lean into what you were saying about yosuke earlier and say the magician but unfortunately oh you got a rough lot there that's kenji and persona three and morgana and persona five the lovers is also pretty strong that's yukari rise and on I like on I definitely like deeply empathize with on I like yukari and rise a lot more but those those are good it's a good trio there yeah and the emperor is also pretty good although it's like yusuke kanji and then the weird republican student council guy yeah so it's also kind of strange three is always where they throw you a curveball because like not everyone had s-links yet so like that's where you get like oh no it's kenji wait I need to find his last name I need to shout out forevergo uh gj and discord posted uh this like it's the meme of of uh australisic saying like somehow palpatine return but it just said somehow kenji tomachika that's right that's really good that's like the pieces of this episode yeah I love it I'm gonna say willow fortune for myself that's gonna be my answer I love that that's that's that is that what you would assign yourself yes or who you like the most that's who I'm assigning myself if I were to assign myself one I think it might be I'm but I my first thought was the emperor but that's so presumptuous but I feel like that kind of fits for me it's very aries coded I feel yeah but I also like the chariot I just don't think I'm enough of a jock to pull it off but I'll find the truth one day if I keep looking king blackjack on discord how do you feel adachi compares other antagonists in the persona series I've always found persona 4 story interesting given that its primary conflict is lower stakes relative to other games if we cover this a bit already I think he's functional I mean despite how much we critiqued the reveal and his character I think it works but I think this series kind of struck now that I think about I feel like the series kind of struggles with antagonists overall I was gonna say the same thing I think I think the closest they get to really succeeding is three yeah and I think maraki is an interesting villain but even then I feel like it's it's kind of more last minute than anything yeah three does feel at least like a subtle ramp up over the course of many many hours into making something like climactic and feels personal which is what you want out of a villain in a video game that's 80 hours long I also think the secondary villains are fun like the weird team rocket trio of like the guy looks like Jesus and that's kind of what I'm talking about is like they them being kind of the in your face villains for most of the video game I think really works and then by the time you take them out and you're like oh the actual villain is literally death like yeah I think that's I think that's really strong because the entire game has led up to that thematically verse adachi which is like there's a murder mystery and that's the central thing that's propelling you through the video game and then they wrap that up very quickly and they're like here's a big eyeball yeah and I mean it's a visual design of all the bosses I I'm excited for you to get back to percent of five royal though because like a catchy well antagonistic he joins the team in like yeah well he joins the team as Robin Hood in original five and then it's revealed he's the traitor he becomes a bad guy but in royal he joins the team again after he was revealed to be a traitor but he's like no whole no holding back unhinged a catchy yes I love him yeah I like the talk about a good vocal performance his voice actor is so good and like it's so funny because like I think I mentioned this before but like when it's anyone's turn a persona they're like I'm next like they're excited to fight and he's just like I will break them like he's so scared when it's his turn it's great yeah he's time skipped a meet treat yeah I yeah big big shout out to our friend Callie biggest a catchy fan loves a catchy on the planet yes exactly oh this is this is one that I think we almost got to and then moved on this is from biscuit and discord more of a general persona question persona three soundtrack pulls from hip hop persona four pulls from jpop and persona five pulls from asajaz what music genres would you like to see future persona games explore this is awesome I feel like it would be fun I love the guilty gear series and I feel like an 80s metal persona would be very interesting oh yeah like go full like kind of dragon force with it or like like like motorhead or something it might be exhausting but I feel like that would be an interesting spin I think metal persona that would be very interesting I would love that I think that yeah although I do feel like that's kind of what SMT is going for that's you're so right that's exactly like especially like five yeah the soundtrack of that is like kind of psychedelic metal like dungeon synth almost I wonder if because of how long this game has taken to make so far like just because the development cycle has been so long like I'm curious if we have already moved past the city pop revival that has happened recently I feel like there are so many great city pop artists who have kind of like popped up again in in recent years and I could see that being a big thing like even when I was in Japan the very first time there was a tatsurya maschita like reissue of all of his vinyl for the first time in like 30 years or something that would be really fun but I kind of want them to go back to persona 3's hip hop influence and like do it again but now with like just the way hip hop has changed even since the early 2000s when I made that game oh yeah you could probably do that like because I feel like the the hip hop in 3 is very like sort of like a fusion of like techno and like yeah almost kind of like adult swim in some ways um I think you could have like more of a yeah there's a lot of variety you could explore with that my concern truly is that they persona 6 abides too much by what made persona 5 successful and they just do like jazz again not that's bad like I'd be happy to have more persona style jazz like totally fine but I would like to see them pull from another genre I think I think they'll pull I mean I think this game has been in development for long enough that I'm expecting some big swings honestly like I think it's going to have a lot more active combat in it like if we looked at the trend of like yeah you go from sort of like dungeon crawling to persona 5's like stealth mechanics to metaphor allowing you to like do quick combos before combat yeah I just sense that that will happen in some capacity yeah I think what the trails remake is doing is probably is what I'm anticipating that's kind of what I'm anticipating as well I think the music kind of has to be upbeat given like the vibe of persona yeah I mean the elephant in the room is like what if this is the ska persona really is okay that said though like a fusion of like ska and reggae I think could be cool dude that would be awesome yeah I feel like uh like uh yeah I think that I think it depends on where it's set I think that's going to inform the whole thing because like all we know is that it's probably green and it's about monopoly what was that rumor was like it's like sort of a monopoly structure or am I making that up oh I don't know what that is that's that's interesting I thought like years ago you shared a rumor that it was like it's probably like the green color scheme and there was something about like monopoly gameplay maybe I'm totally making this up there was a there was a rumor that persona 6 uh is actually taking inspiration from a monopoly board that they made specifically for the city of Yokohama that's what I was thinking of okay I was like I know this isn't from nowhere yes so the the rumors are that uh that the Yokohama monopoly board is in some way gonna come into play which maybe implies that it's gonna take place in Yokohama which I guess would make sense and the color is green and that the theme is hypothetically yin yang like a yin and yang thing um which could also imply dual protagonists but it's been in development since uh early 2019 damn okay so I I think yeah I can't wait I mean that's gonna be so exciting that's one of the few games that like I will just stop everything for when it comes out yeah um very exciting okay emergency podcast moment when that happens yes uh and this is the last question uh from snooze button UK on blue sky what would you like to see changed or improved upon in the upcoming remake do you think you'll both be playing at day one um I'll answer the latter question first unless there's some weird controversy I will probably be getting at day one yeah I this is the answer to every single question about do you think we'll be playing a video game I think is always like in lieu in lieu of some horrible controversy which is more common than it should be uh yeah like if you asked me like you know a month before kawami 3 came out you know like if I was to get that you know my answer would have changed dramatically based on what happened there you know right this this would be the yakuza kawami bonus instead yeah right um so yeah I I think in terms of what I'd like to see improved upon I think the obvious answers based on our discussion here would be like you can totally revamp the side quests like the side quests can be fully removed and fully reimagined and I don't think anyone would care I don't see like any nostalgia for like I love the quiz master or like I love getting like a piece of rock for the nameless person in the hallway like yeah that stuff just feels like busy work and I feel like if you were to give us the fishing and the bug catching earlier on and just have quests involved with that or like sort of um build upon like the the fox functionality like maybe yes I think the fox is like doing quests for people like just sort of have that be like more seamless I think would be my vote and um I think the dungeon design is probably where I expect the biggest changes to be made I think I think there's a pretty high chance that the dungeons will be kind of turned into Persona 5 palaces of some kind maybe like halfway between the fully authored environments of Persona 5 and the generative dungeons of Persona 4 yeah I feel like um given the changes they made to Tartarus and Reload I feel like it's probably a safe bet that they will try to make the dungeons have more going on than what is in 4 and 4 Golden yeah I think that's probably right I as far as the side quests go there are a couple that are like decent to good you know like they're I think the ones there's one where like there's this kid in your class who has like an unrequited love for a girl who's always on the roof that you need to like oh that is a good one you're right that stuff that stuff is decent um but I think you're right that like the fox stuff is actually the best version of a quote unquote side quest that exists in the game and I think there's maybe a version of progression through the fox that incorporates the best of what were the better side quests and the fox is not like an s-link but is instead like a thing that just kind of continues to give you different stuff you know there's like a job board and like every time you do like five quests you go up a rank with the fox so that feels like maybe better yeah I just so much of the fox stuff is also like really really really ambiguous in a way it doesn't need to be where like I think I talked in a previous episode about the cat one where it's like the guy who's afraid of cats and you need to like figure out how to how to get him to not be afraid of cats anymore and requires doing like three other side quests that involve cats before you can do that one like there's so much weird stuff there um yeah I think uh I just I'm just generally interested in having a conversation about the remake because you and I have said on the show more often than odd that we are like more pro remake than most people who do what we do for a living seem to be um I'm you know as you and I say every single time there are million caveats that I don't think we need to go over all of again but like you know if it comes at the expense of the original if you're saying like we're replacing the original never play the original again obviously that's bullshit but uh I do think there are certain games that benefit from having remakes in terms of introducing stories or ideas to new players who maybe you know are not as uh willing as people like you and I are to go back and play through old libraries of older video games um and yeah in the case of like Persona 3 reload for example I think they made some great changes to that game that made that uh significantly more approachable to a whole new suite of people who probably didn't know which version of Persona 3 to pick up and were stuck in decision paralysis um but also were like coming hot off the heels of Persona 5 and wanted to experience Persona 3 but didn't know how like there there are there are pros and cons there and you have said and this is I want to hand it off to you you have said more than once over the course of prepping for this episode that as you played this game you felt more in favor of a remake of it than you were when we uh when it was first announced and I'm curious I'm curious why that is yeah I was pretty I was pretty like unambiguously against the remake initially because I'm like the only reason to remake this if you're not revisiting the story which I'm just assuming they really won't meaningfully yeah maybe that's wrong but like assuming that that's not why they're remaking it I'm like the reason to remake this is because it doesn't look like reload and royal I'm like yeah that kind of still feels like the primary reason if I'm being honest which is why I'm like probably the primary reason yeah uh I'm not like as pumped for it as like I was for reload which I think like as much as I love Fez and like and portable and in some ways think like all three versions of three have something going for them that's unique to that version um reload is so overwhelmingly more fun to play than either of those other versions that I can see that like yeah this is probably the version that's going to work for most people and that's also such a good story and such a great game that like I'm glad more people get to experience it in a way that doesn't really really test their patience and their limit for like older design um four though I think the reason I warmer to the idea of remaking four is just like I mean I'm not immune to surface level reasons I'm like it would be kind of fun to see these characters again in a new way and I think it's maybe as simple as like because as I played this I got a stronger sense of how more than five and more than three four is the most replayable one and I'm just excited at the prospect of getting to replay it with the promise of like new additions and and new ideas and potentially you know I mean I will be over the moon if they do anything meaningful with kanji and now to and yosuke like dream scenario like they add the yosuke romance back kanji's canonically by now to is treated better when she reveals she's a woman like those are kind of low bars to clear like that is possible do I expect all that to happen not really just because I feel like what what I would guess will happen is they will cut the more egregious scenes where it feels like they are mocking the character or they will rewrite those scenes to be more inclusive and less homophobic and transphobic like the drag number I think will probably be rewritten or even disremove entirely I think the camp scene will probably be rewritten or just have that one bit with kanji removed but I mean it's I just know so many people who would be so happy to be represented in a persona game like this and I think the the reason why I would be in favor of rewrites is just like it was there you know it would you got halfway there why not use this opportunity to do right by these characters I mean you know I think they would only you know they would make the worst people on the internet angry but like they're gonna be angry no matter what they're gonna call it woke if you can save like it doesn't matter what they think like I feel like so many more people would be so fucking thrilled yeah um if that happened and I would I would be like I would be over the moon too but you know as it stands I also think it is going to be really nice to see these characters again and to see them with like new designs and new voices and I'm sure they're going to add like some new stuff to do in town to like you know reload added a bunch of like new activities to do together so yeah I'm just like excited to revisit it you know I think uh I want to replay it and why not replay it and like a new flash if it has to come out why not experience it that way yeah um I still think it's like an ambiguous reason to need to remake it but if they're if they're going to there are reasons to look forward to it yeah yeah I'm with you basically like in lockstep I'm with you uh on that I think like the prospect of replaying this game is already exciting to me to see some of the stuff that I haven't seen before and the idea of being able to play that with the same quality of life stuff that I've grown to love from reload is like just icing on the cake for me and I think specifically the thing that you just mentioned uh it was something I wanted to shout out to you like they did add new stuff to do in town in Persona 3 reload and I'm excited about the prospect of Inaba in particular first of all being more seamless like I think again it's notable that the thing that they showed in the eight second reveal trailer or reveal teaser was like the protagonist leaving the shrine running down the shopping street north into shopping street south with no load screen like that to me implies that they want that to be like one more cohesive area and it wouldn't surprise me if we saw more of those closed down shops in that area open or at least have like more stuff going on I do think there is a certain element of having that stuff be closed that is important to you know the the junece of it all um but I do think we'll see more stuff to do there and I think that'll be really cool um and yeah I just I think it's gonna be good I don't know I'm just like I'm excited about it I hope they don't fuck up like that's kind of it I just saw a vision of actually being able to ride your scooter around like directly like actually ride your scooter yeah how yeah because that's something and I loved a metaphor you can like use your sword as a little surfboard to get around town faster and I'm like how fun would it be to be able to like actually just drive around in a but I I'm not gonna be bummed if that's not there because I'm sure that's like kind of a yeah distant dream but I feel there's stuff like that where I'm like oh the opportunities are the remake are actually maybe beyond just a polished look yeah like okina city you know like that feels like the kind of place that could really use a level of like just additional thought because it's like there's some interesting stuff to do there but it's like largely a place you could ignore the entire playthrough and really I kind of did I feel like I almost never went there I just like anytime I checked the thing that shows you what everybody else did and people were like I went to the movies it's like all right I'll I'll go the movies with somebody and that was kind of it and then uh towards the end of the game I bought every single costume in the shop oh yeah you got it because you gotta yeah and then uh I put everybody in secret agent outfits for the final boss that's sick that rocks um but yeah I like I feel like okina city could really use like a level of honest maybe they just take it out I don't even know like I I'm waiting for the thing that they remove you know like what do they get rid of in the same way they cut an entire character yeah I wonder if like Marie is just not in it's like oh it's a persona for remake and not a golden remake yeah not a golden remake that's there's a non-zero chance they do that persona for it's not called persona for golden revival it's it's persona for yeah now but I feel like if no what did what did we just summon into the world humanity will zip they didn't want Marie the big eyeballs like get rid of golden I feel like uh in some ways if they include the golden stuff it makes it even worse that Katonai isn't in reload because like then they're just picking and choosing what they want to include yeah um but also like that would be so funny if they don't do that I mean because the the the thing about golden is like yeah there's that extra dungeon but it's also like the golden stuff is more kind of spread throughout so I don't know what you have to gain from not having that yeah but right we'll see um I'm not to miss it though because I mean reload despite the weird decision to not have Katonai was fantastic and like Alice's track record these days is like pretty remarkable I don't really think they messed this up so yeah and like at the end of the day I think the the beautiful thing well not the beautiful thing it's not a good way of framing it at all but the the one silver lining upside to them cutting Katonai is that atlas has as you were I think alluding to is like they released for some of the reportable on all platforms like you could you can go play for some of the reportable and play through that route and it'll be a markedly different experience than the one you had in reload and you're missing some of those quality of life improvements but like if you finished reload you are well equipped to do that and have that experience and enjoy it yeah absolutely so that there's at least golden is will be available regardless so yeah I feel like that was cool but where's Marie uh boy have we got the game for you in several hours of conversation about it and that my friend is a wrap we have reached max rank in our social link today and uh our first official golden persona bonus yeah oh my god I can't believe I can't believe it happened we did talk for so long I mean it was it was always going to be this way yeah I think uh you can't do a persona bonus and have it be less than eight hours long yeah I look I love you to death but if there's one thing about you that I know is that if I bring a persona on the show ever the next 30 minutes of the episode will be about persona whether or not that was intentional like if I just like mention it in passing we're talking about it so the idea of doing a persona bonus of course means we're spending the entire day from morning to night it is currently we started recording the morning it's currently nighttime and uh it was great it was really fun I hope I hope you enjoyed it to your listener yeah thank you so much for listening especially if you got through all the way um a special thanks to our patrons for making big episodes like this possible yeah thank you AJ in advance for your wonderful edit on this gigantic episode I'm so sorry thank you I guess for your fruit and vegetable smoothie I just wanted to see what her meal was that's interesting yeah and thank you Brendan for uh sharing your experience with this game with me it's always so fun talking with you thanks for pushing me to finally finish persona for golden after literally 14 years um I'll I'll say I'll say at the end here it's been a long episode you can go to patreon.com slash into the cast if you want to back the show you can go to into the cast online if you want all of our links everywhere Steven and I are on the internet you can find us just by searching for our names on the internet and the last thing that I want to say is that every day is great at your Junes and every night at midnight if it's raining and you're watching the tv you will see the love of your life on the screen bye everyone goodbye that's how Percy and I met you pwg the worst garbage you