666: Angie Hicks (Founder of Angie's List) - The Power of Selling Door-to-Door, Executive Presence, Being Told She Was 'Too Nice,' and Her 2-Question Career Filter That Kept Her at One Company for 30 Years

Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes. Go to learningleader.com. Now on to tonight's featured leader, the great Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie's List, now called Angie. She started the company at just 23 years old, going door to door as a self-described introvert and non-salesperson. And she turned it into a national platform trusted by millions. During our conversation, we discuss what it takes to lead with authenticity and build lasting impact. Angie shares stories from her early days selling memberships one conversation at a time. What she learned about confidence, partnership, and hiring the right people, and why staying very close to the front lines, especially as a senior leader, is so important. We also talk about how to know when to keep going, the questions she asks herself about the people she works with, and why taking your work very seriously but not yourself is the key to thriving in any role. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Angie Hicks. This episode is brought to you by my friends at Insight Global. Insight Global is a staffing and professional services company dedicated to being the light to the world around them. If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through talent or technical services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to deliver. Hiring can be tough, but hiring the right person can be magic. Visit insightglobal.com slash learningleader today to learn more. That's insightglobal.com slash learning leader. All right, Angie, to start, I loved reading about your grandfather's influence. I read that he was actually quite conservative, but he was actually the one that pushed you to start a business. Was this at 22 or age 23? Can you tell me more about your grandfather and his influence on you to start a business? Yeah, so I had the opportunity. My co-founder came to me when I was a senior in college and said, hey, I've got a crazy idea. Your parents are going to hate it, but why don't we start a business? And I was like, that is a crazy idea. I think I might hate it. So I spent a lot of time kind of thinking about it and kind of him hauling around, talked to my parents, talked to my friends. And then I ended up talking to my grandfather, who was incredibly conservative. He was someone that grew up in the Depression. and he was just very fiscally responsible and kind of looked at me and was like, what do you have to lose? Like, why are you just not taking this leap? And, you know, he's like, you're 22. Your parents aren't going to let you starve. And, you know, you're not trying to support a family. So why don't you try it? And, you know, I was so taken aback by his response that that comment was probably what pushed me over the edge, because it was one of those things that I think, and I think young people can do this a lot, is we tend to overthink decisions because we're just like, I don't know, I don't know. And sometimes people see things in you that you don't see in yourself, and you've got to have a little faith. And what better time to have a little faith than when you're young and carefree? What do you think your co-founders saw in you? Well, it was kind of funny. So I actually interned for him when I was in college, and I remember going to the interview. He worked at a venture capital firm in Indianapolis, and his first question out of the gate was, are you as smart at math as the guy I just interviewed? And I went to a small school, so I knew the guy he had just interviewed, and I was like, okay, what do I do? Do I say? Do you think you were smarter than him or what? I was not smarter at math than Murray. No, I was not. And so I was like, do I sell here or do I just be honest? And I was like, well, if that's what you're looking for, then Murray's your guy. And then he went on to ask me what venture capital was, And, you know, my very astute answer was you invest in small companies. That was the extent of my explanation. While factually correct, probably didn't didn't wow him. After we interviewed, he later told me he was like, you know what? I figured you could use a break. You were smart and you were a hard worker. And I wanted to give this to you to give you a break. So, you know, it's like, hey, that was true. And he later said, it was like, I'd give her any project at the internship and she'd just barrel through it and get through it. So work hard and things will come your way is what I learned there. So what was the original business idea? You wanted to start a business. What was that idea? Yeah. So, well, at first it was literally he wanted to start a business and he wasn't quite sure what the business would be. And so we kind of played around with a bunch of ideas. But in the meantime, he had moved from Indianapolis to Columbus. And when he lived in Indianapolis, he lived in an old house and had rehabbed it using a little service called Unified Neighbors that one of his co-workers had turned him on to. And it was basically a little directory that kept track of good plumbers, electricians, contractors, etc. So he moved to Ohio and he loves old houses. So he bought yet another diamond in the rough and realized pretty quickly there was nothing like Unified Neighbors in Columbus and got taken by a contractor and started looking around the country and realized that that little business that started in the 70s in Indianapolis was actually one of a kind. And so that became the business we wanted to start. This was a time, you know, if we roll back the clock, it was 1995. It was an offline world. I mean, email was barely a thing. And so we started as a call-in service and a monthly newsletter. How did you and him decide? By the way, what's his name? Bill. Bill Osterly. Bill Osterly. Okay. How did you and Bill decide on what the name of the company would be? Well, the first name of the company was actually Columbus Neighbors. It was totally just a knockoff of Unified Neighbors. And so we were in Columbus, so we shall be Columbus Neighbors. We left it like that for a year. And what we realized is people just didn't get it. They screwed up the name. They called us the good neighbors. And they also thought that the newsletter was the list. They thought that it was like, oh, I opened the newsletter. If there weren't plumbers this month, then, you know, maybe it'll be helpful to me next month, which was exactly what we didn't want them to think. We wanted it to be dynamic. We decided to do a rebranding, you know, nine months in, I guess it was. We had two options. One was going to be the list, kind of this militant, like, I've got your back. And then the other one was going to be Jackie's list. Jackie was the mother of one of our investors who lived in Columbus, and she knew everybody. If you needed to know something, you'd call Jackie, you know, which made sense, right? And then at the last minute, Bill said, maybe it should be Angie's list. She does answer the phone. And I consider this one of my inconsequential decisions at the time, right? Like we had like, well, I don't know, thousand members, 500 members. I don't know what we had. And Bill was like, you know, the story works even if she leaves. Right. Because, you know, the story is just like Angie was the one that first answered the phones. And so Angie's list, it became. But it was, you know, we were in Columbus. It was small. Let it be named that. It's fine. Wow. That's wild to see. 30 years later was Craigslist around Craigslist. So it's interesting. Craigslist started right about the same time Angie's listed. but you know, he was on the coast and we were, we were in the Midwest. You guys were aware or no, I was totally not aware of it until he copy off of you. Then I think we actually started about the same time. Wow. That's totally coincidental. Totally, totally coincidental the whole part. And it was a while later until I'd even heard of it. Cause like for a while, it was just kind of a West coast thing. Gotcha. Okay. So you at least then were a self-identified, maybe currently still introvert. And one of the things, though, that you started doing in Columbus, Ohio, which I love this part of the story, is that you start just knocking on doors, going door to door, trying to sell these memberships. I mean, tell me about these experiences, maybe a high, a low, everything in between. What did you learn as a self-identified introvert, as someone who then just pounded the pavement, knocked on doors, got rejected, had to be resilient, had to keep going? What was that like? It was hard. There was a lot of crying. I will be honest. When we took the concept from Unified Neighbors, I mean, they'd built their entire business on door-to-doors and they had no other marketing kind of concept. So we were like, well, I guess we'll try door-to-door. But it was 20 years later. I think everybody listening is probably laughing. I'm like, I can't remember the last time I answered my door to anyone now. I mean, it wasn't much better in 1995. And I was selling something that wasn't concrete. Like I was selling a like, hey, so when you need a plumber, you're going to call me and I'm going to help you find a plumber. And then when you hire someone, you're going to tell me about there was just nothing that I could kind of pull from that made it work. So I did. I went door to door. While I wasn't as smart at math as Murray was, I was a numbers person. So I viewed it as a numbers game. Right. I'm like, I need to knock on so many doors every day. And that's just what I'm going to do. And hopefully if I stay on my pitch and I knock on enough doors, I will sell the right number of memberships. But at that time, gosh, I mean, if I was selling one or two memberships a day, I mean, I was like, that's great. No business was going to be built on me selling one or two memberships a day, but that's kind of where we were. How many doors a day would you need to knock on to get one or two closes? I'd probably do it a couple of hours. I mean, I was probably doing 10 or 20 kind of houses, depending on whether I was reaching people or not. And then every once in a while, I'd find someone that just, I don't know, maybe they thought I needed a break like Bill did, and they'd give me their friend list. One woman, Patty, she gave me her church directory and said, you call everybody in this directory and you tell them that Patty said to call. Oh, nice. But for people like that, gosh, I don't know. I probably would have been long gone. Do you remember the exact pitch? How did you open? What were some of your discovery questions? What did it sound like? I would love to go into that moment. Yeah, I mean, you know, so not a salesperson and not a great pitch. So, you know, I would basically be like, hey, you know, I'd introduce myself. I would explain like, you know, I'm starting a new business, you know, when it's to help you find good contractors. You know, we were selling against basically the yellow pages at that time, right? You want to get the real scoop on the service providers that you're hiring to work around your home and you're not sure who to use. We can tell you that because we're collecting reviews from actual customers who have used them. And we can tell you which ones you want to hire and which ones you might want to avoid. So you can call me anytime. I will give you the names. And then we also have a newsletter. And quite honestly, I think probably the newsletter and the fact that we priced it similar to a magazine subscription at $19 a year at the time was probably what sold it. And they were like, fine, I'll take a magazine subscription for $19 a year. Sometimes out of pity, just like, all right, just got on my house. Yeah. Really. But what do you draw from that experience, though? Both the willingness to knock on doors, to get doors slammed in your face, to get rejected, as well as to get a deal every once in a while. What do you draw from those experiences? I mean, one, I think it's like it teaches you that sometimes you have to do the hard stuff. Sometimes you have to do the stuff you're not good at and you have to figure out ways to work around it, because no matter what you do in your career, there's going to be stuff you don't love. Me, I broke it down by like, I'm going to do it for these two hours. I guess I'm a believer in the you can do anything for a year philosophy. You can you can do that kind of like I could do anything for an hour a day I could do. and so you have to kind of disconnect and treat it that way as kind of like, this is like taking my medicine, right? But you do win every once in a while, and it is fun when you win. It is fun when you sell something. The days you sold three, the day Patty gave me her church directory, was like, this is the best day ever. And it taught me that you got to celebrate the little wins as well in life. Starting a business is a long journey. It's more of a marathon than a sprint. There's usually not this burst of moment where kind of everything rolls your way. It's like it's building blocks along the way. So if you don't celebrate those little wins and you only focus on, oh, I'm not going to be happy until we're at 10,000 members, that could be years. You need things to kind of keep you going every day. Why do you think Patty gave you her church list? She lived near Bill, so I think she liked him too. But I think it was like she just liked us. And I think there was a little bit of entrepreneur in Patty because Patty needed nothing from us. Like Patty had lived in Columbus her entire life. She had renovated a 1920s house. She needed nothing. All she was able to do was give. Like, let's be honest. Like she knew everybody. But I think she just loved the spirit The reason I bring that up and I think this could be useful for a lot of people is there something to be said for being likable for being authentic and genuine and being willing to do the hard thing I think people respect that. I think the patties of the world, it's like funny, all great entrepreneurs, all great business leaders, they have the patties in their life. And it's usually because the Angie Hicks of the world shows up, worked her butt off, was resilient, was likable, knew her stuff, right? I bet you knew your stuff. And then you find people like Patty and they want to propel you. They want to help. I think there's a lot of learning there that if you show up and keep getting after it and keep having a positive attitude and be resilient and fight through the tough times, the door slamming in your face, you'll eventually knock on Patty's door. And so I'm using this story as a metaphor, but that feels to me a very relatable story if you're willing to keep going. Right, right. Because I think there is. And you don't know whether that's door seven, door one, door 57. You don't know. But there is typically a breakthrough. And I think staying true and persistent and, you know, it's like, yeah, I mean, there probably weren't a lot of women starting businesses going door to door in 1995, you know, and Patty was like, look, she's got some gumption, right? Right. She's tackling a business that many ways is a man's world. Right. Construction is a man's world. So I think you're right. And whether that's starting a business or whether that's finding the right boss or finding the right position, that's the right spot for you. I think that same lesson is the same. You know, I talked to young people. I was like, hey, you can do marketing anywhere. Any company, you can do marketing. Like when it comes to me, it's like, go where you're going to be with somebody who believes in you. that's going to invest in you because that's actually what's going to change your trajectory. It's not the name on the company that's going to change your trajectory. It's actually who's got your back, who's coaching you is what's going to make the biggest difference. So let's progress a little bit further. You're knocking on doors. You're making a sale or two or they sometimes more. And so it's growing steadily. What's the next inflection point? What was the next moment that you vividly remember to say, oh, do we have something here? We got something like the arrows really starting to point up. What happened? What was that moment? Yeah, I mean, I think for me was we got Columbus going, got probably, what, a thousand members in the first year. We ended up acquiring that business, Unified Neighbors. But for me was when we opened in Cleveland the year after that. It was the first market we had opened from scratch. And I remember we were a local offline advertiser. advertiser. So I went one morning and that morning and picked up the newspaper, picked up the plane dealer at the bagel shop across the street from my office. And I was like, and there it was, our little two by three ad that said, tired of lousy service with some clip art. Did you write this and make it yourself? For sure. 100%. Okay. 100%. Great copy. Sounds like great copy. The same ad ran in the New York Times, by the way, years later. Are you serious? Yeah. That's awesome. That's all. Okay. Sorry. Maybe we didn't invest in creative early on. That wasn't our strong suit. Being authentic and real and speaking from the owner's mouth. I like that. I like the authenticity of that. I mean, eventually you probably hire out help for people that are good at that stuff. But there's something to be said for your company having an authentic voice. I think that's important. I like that. And in many ways, it just kind of stuck out, right? Yeah. So I opened up the Plain Dealer and there's the ad. And I was like, gosh, I sure hope the phones ring. You know, it's like, what are we doing? This is real now. It's not just this little thing we opened in Columbus. And the phones did ring, but that was probably the moment when it was like, we're going, we're doing this. And what happened next? So then Cleveland started to take off. Then we opened in Charlotte. So we kind of got on a path of opening markets, you know, once a year. Charlotte was probably our market that was the hardest, hardest, hardest one to open to this day. It was funny. I was like, it was a city that I thought lots of people like to move to Charlotte, but it was an amazingly insider city. It was interesting. It was so interesting to watch. We, in fact, contemplated closing Charlotte because it was just not, you know, it just wasn't kind of taking off like the other cities had. And then we just decided like, hey, we'll just pull back the marketing. We'll just see what happens if it goes organically. And finally, just took it a couple of years longer. What about the change or the transition from this kind of magazine subscription-like newsletter business to the online world? What was that like? Yeah. So for us, so we made that transition in like 99, I think it was. For us, we were really kind of worried about it changing who we were. Up until that point, we had offices in every city. We thought understanding local service was being local. So we had people staffed answering the calls for Charlotte, separate from people that were answering the calls for Cleveland, et cetera, because you kind of needed to know everything about the city. But in order to put a website up and to make it interactive, all of those things that we were doing were going to have to potentially change. But we didn't want to change kind of who we are. We viewed online as an additional channel, not a complete replacement. First, we put up a little website that was, you know, I think we spent a thousand dollars on it, hired some kids fresh out of college to create it. It was email based. It was just a marketing kind of website. And so we asked our chief operating officer a few months in, like, hey, how's that going? And he goes and he looks like, yeah, like half of our new members are coming in via this email. And we're like, oh, my gosh, OK, now we need to figure out what to do. So but then we kind of like we're worried again because we're like, oh, we should make an interactive website. Well, you know, do we want to put the entire list up, you know, kind of on the web? Like all of a sudden it kind of created all these kind of questions. So we we were slow to kind of open things up. But we put up an interactive website as every story like this goes. You know, it's like all of a sudden, like 90 percent of our activity was happening on the web. But we always kept a call in service. You know, you could still stop by our office if you wanted to. For us, it was about creating connections and meeting our customers where they were. And so clearly, the website was paramount to driving the growth and meeting many of the customers where they were. There were still folks that wanted to call and chat with someone, and they needed someone to counsel them. Home improvements are kind of stressful, scary sometimes, and maybe they just needed a friend. Did you start to become famous at that point? Not then. You know, it was really, quite honestly, not until the marketing team came to me in like 2004 or five. And we're like, hey, Angie, the most common question we get is whether there is an Angie. So would you consider being in some marketing? Could we test that? And, you know, and again, another inconsequential decision at the time, because we weren't spending very much money. We were spending maybe a million dollars in marketing. And I was like, fine, let's try it. whatever. And it worked. And then the next thing you know, we couldn't find something to beat it. And so... What do you mean it worked? How do you define that? It was successful. We got the best response rates off of those ads. What were you guys doing? I'm trying to remember that time, but what were you doing? We had some magazine ads, but then we were also doing television. So kind of our second television campaign was actually had me starring me, told him, I was like, you get what you get. You know, one of the rules for me is that however we present has to be who I am. As I became more public, it was really important for me to think about how to be incredibly authentic because I have to live this life. The person they see on TV needs to be the person they see in the grocery store. And that's limiting. That's hard for creative people, right? It's like they're like, I'd like to do all of these kind of crazy, fun things. I'm like, I'm not there. That's not where I am. But yeah, and then and then it kind of took off. How did that impact not only your life, but all of your loved ones, the people around you's lives? In many ways, I had young kids at the time. I wouldn't let us advertise on kids' shows. You'd never find us on Disney Channel or Nickelodeon because I didn't want that. But the kids would see me on TV. They would see me doing interviews and things like that. And it happened for them at such a young age that they just kind of thought that's what parents did, but didn't really sink in. And I remember one of my kids coming home in middle school and being like, I can't believe you didn't tell me you were famous because it was finally, you know, the friends had grown up enough that they were like, you know who her mom is. Right. Yeah. And I was like, it is. But I think probably in many ways I kind of became, you know, a little more closed off in my personal life as, you know, as I became more public. But that was just kids deserve to grow up in a world that they get to kind of be kids and not have to deal with that stuff. So in many ways, people around us kind of in our little town were like, oh, yeah, she just lives here. And it became not a thing. It became more relevant to me when I was traveling. And we were kind of like you see people that are like because they don't they didn't expect it. And that was certainly adjustment. So you progress in the business from being this semi-individual contributor where you're knocking on doors yourself, selling deals yourself, to then leading a company, becoming more famous and well-known wherever you go. I'm curious about that jump from that individual contributor to leading others. And this is something that kind of naturally happened as your business has grown. What's the biggest difference for you or what were some of your biggest key moments or key learnings going from individual contributor to somebody who's going to lead others? Yeah, it's a horrible transition. It's actually really hard. And I tell people that all the time because it's like if you think about like who do we promote in companies? We promote really strong individual performers. Correct. And the skills that make us really good individual performers do not necessarily make us good leaders, managers, etc. Because it's actually a whole different skill set. And I was I was like I was like that overachiever kind of controller, like, let me just do it type person. And so you have to actually train yourself to not do those things. Right. Because no one's ever going to kind of be successful and learn if you're just over there kind of stepping in. And so, yeah, so I'm like, yeah, the early days when I was young and trying to manage people, not good, not good at all. In fact, I ended up leaving for a year and a half to go to business school. And I think that was a great step for me for many reasons. One, I was pretty burnt out on the business and I probably would have left the business had I not gone. And two, it gave me a chance to kind of reflect on kind of where I've been and step back and be like, oh, now I understand. I'm not in the pressure cooker. I can kind of see where I've kind of misstepped and things like that. You went to Harvard, correct, to get your MBA? I did. So you left your home and did you move to live on campus? Well, I mean, I was still young at the time. I kind of left my apartment, sold my car, packed up my worldly possessions. How old were you at the time? So I was three years in. So I was 25. So the business is just starting to take off. And you're like, hey, you know what? I'm going to peace out. I'm going to go learn with all the smart kids. Maybe people will say, what was that crazy idea? Nobody would ever do that now. Nobody. Like the third year of a startup, they would never do that. It was at the time where the business had gotten big enough and we decided to bring in a CEO because the 22, 23-year-old was kind of like, maybe we need some leadership here. And so my co-founder joined full-time at that point and he came in as CEO. So there was a kind of, it made sense at the time, but it was like, I think it was the right thing for me for the long haul. But you're right. I mean, it was, it was whatever. It was three years in and I'm like, I'm going to take a break. I mean, but I, you know, I joke around. I'm like, take a break. I was still keeping the books. Like, don't be fooled. You were still doing. Now getting into Harvard business school is really, really hard. Was it because of the success of the business? Do you think that helped you get admitted? Yeah, I think it was that I was unique. Like I was this Midwest gal applying to Harvard. I mean, I was probably late in the game and kind of deciding to go to business school. It wasn't necessarily ever on my roadmap, but it's kind of like, maybe this is what I need. Bill gave me a little push. He'd gone to HBS. So, you know, that certainly helped. I applied there. I applied to Northwestern. Then I ran out of time because my person that was running our Cleveland office quit on me and I was having to drive from Indy to Cleveland every week to work. So I was like, I can't apply anymore. So I think I have a half, I probably still somewhere have a half written application to Michigan. I got into Harvard. I did not get into Kellogg. Wow. Okay. So what are some of the most useful things you learned, or maybe it was the people you met? I don't know. That's usually what I hear from HBS alums, but what was it from that experience that helped you be a better leader moving forward? You know in a lot of ways it was a time for kind of reflection and kind of understanding what I been through Because if you actually rolled back and kind of thought about it I like started a business opened a bunch of markets I made an acquisition I was leading people There were just like so many things that I was just like I don't know what this is. Like, you know, I didn't I didn't grow up with a family with a business background. My dad was a UPS driver. My mom was a bank teller. So like all of this stuff was just like, OK, I don't know what this is. It's interesting. Fine. So it was a chance to kind of step back. I think it was also a time for me. I was like humbled that I got to go to HBS. Like, I'll just straight up be honest. And, you know, I was kind of that overachieving student as a young person. And I was like, you know what? Maybe this is a time I need to practice not taking life so seriously. Maybe I should just enjoy the fact that I got in. And if I don't make it out, that's OK, too. Was it really hard? you know it's just like it was one of those where i was just like i'm gonna enjoy the learning for the learning and not like turn this into kind of a thing yeah i mean it was hard i mean like i was an introvert i was probably the only one in my class i don't know don't you think that we're better suited to go i should speak myself but i feel like a lot of people were better suited to go back to school to learn after we've lived a bit yeah like when i was in college and undergrad I went back to my MBA too. And I think I learned, but I was working full time. It was really tough. But in undergrad, I was a college athlete, played football. And so I didn't really care that much about school. I know it sounds bad. When I was in undergrad, I cared about playing my sport. I was on scholarship to do it. And so I'm like, this is why I'm here. Yeah, I got to go to those classes and stuff and stay eligible and try to get a three point whatever so that my parents are happy. But for the most part, I didn't really even care that much about learning in college. but you've got a little bit more age on you and more maturity and you've seen some of the world. That's like the right time to go back and learn some more, I feel like. Yeah, it absolutely is. I think, you know, a lot of people think it's like I just need to push through and go and kind of get all of my education. I'm like, no. I'm like, there are times I'm like, maybe I should go get some more education now. I'm like, you know, it's like you kind of have to have a life of learning, I think. And there are different points that kind of that education and kind of what you can do with the information. Having kind of practical experiences that you can kind of relate to can make it stick and be more meaningful to you. So that kind of chance to reflect, maybe take life a little less seriously were kind of important. But it also made me kind of like I had to go battle with people that were much more outgoing and super smart. And it was based on class participation. I used to have to keep track in my head. I was like, okay, I have to go to class today. I have to speak today. Wow. You know, whereas other people are just like, I couldn't possibly not speak. I'm just so compelled. Is it? I was like, I have to speak today. Otherwise I'm, my grades could be lousy. Like I do need to speak today. So I think of Susan Cain, who's been on the show a few times. And I feel like you could be helpful here too. There are lots of introverts out there in leadership roles that, that probably have to battle this. And it's an uphill climb sometimes. What are some pieces of advice you'd give to others who are also introverted, but they live in an extroverted world around a bunch of other extroverted people? And if they're not intentional, they could just kind of fade into the background. Yeah, you're exactly right. You're exactly right. Yeah. What advice would you share for them as somebody who still, it sounds like, deals with this every day? Yeah. So one, I think you have to find a way for you to be your authentic self because you can't fake it all the time. Like, yeah, there are things that I have to do. I still do things like going door to door. I'm not saying I go door to door, but like sometimes I have to give a speech and maybe that's, I don't love that. And I'm exhausted after I do something like that, but I know I, I have to do that. So making sure that I balance kind of my schedule when I do things like that to kind of be cognizant of what it does, but then also find ways to kind of be yourself. I mean, I remember one of the hardest things for me was when our company got big enough that I didn't know everyone by name. Because when you're kind of know everybody by name, you're kind of hanging out, it's really comfortable. And as introvert, it's like, this is good, right? Like, I'm like, I walked down the hall or I walked across our campus and I was like, hey, you know, so and so it's good to see you. And it was like, it was low pressure. It was like hanging out with friends. It was like being in a class that was small enough that you knew everybody that I had to figure out a new way. I had to figure out a new way because I was like, I didn't like the fact that I was disconnected. So I started doing office hours for the team and was great about that. It was it kind of met me where I was. Right. It was like they were one on one. Absolutely anyone in the company could sign up. I dedicated an hour a week to it, get a 15 minute slot. And it was a chance for me to have a good conversation about absolutely anything. It could be career advice. It could be what they loved or didn't like about the business. It could be you name it. And those were very valuable to me. the offer was a big cultural impact in the organization it's just like kind of you know we talk about accessibility we talk about having an open door but there is something more about the fact we send out an email and you can sign up it's not just like stop by and see her anytime were those slots though become like ultra valuable and people would sign up immediately or like what was that like well it was interesting it was kind of like one of those where it was like yes, there were people that were like on it. I want to go. I got to go. But then I think there was also just the fact that the offer was out, I think was also just as valuable. It's like, I could go talk to her if I wanted to. I can do it. I don't have anything I need to talk to her about today, but I know I always can. And that kind of builds the culture. So anybody in the whole, how big was the company at the time when you're doing these office hours? A couple thousand people. Jeez. So where did you come up with this idea? Did a mentor help? Actually, it was actually out of, I read it in one of Adam Bryant's books. Oh, yeah. He's been on the show. Corner office columns. Corner office columns. He had interviewed a leader who had been a professor at one point, and that's what they had done. And I was like, this is genius. I have to do this. I mean, it makes complete sense. How could you argue against doing this? I mean, I know CEOs are super busy and you're like a lot of times back to back to back to back. But who could be more important than the people who work at your company? It seems pretty obvious. Yeah. And I think it's like one of those where it's like you have to kind of think about this in kind of what time you're willing to invest. I think sometimes people think of like, is it an entire program? Is it something that's going to take X hours a week or whatever? I'm like, I gave it an hour. I gave I did it an hour on Fridays leading in the lunchtime, which, let's be honest, was probably one of the squishiest times of kind of productive work. Yeah. Yeah. That's smart. So, you know, it's like I was actually, you know, with a group of CEOs the other day and I actually suggest this. It's like, it's just, just try a little, just a little. It doesn't have to be a big thing. Just try a little and see where it takes you. Do those meetings, would they ever turn into people kind of trying to promote themselves so they could get promoted or were they asking questions or like, what were the meetings like? Oh, it was, it was anything. It was anything. It was, it was literally like it was career advice. What should I do? I'd love to do this thing. They might have ideas for the business. Like, Hey, we should go into this line or we thought about this idea. I remember talking one day to our head of legal and I was like, you know, I don't get open door kind of meeting requests anymore. And she kind of chuckled and just like, that's because you have them all the time. You allow problems to come to you before they're big problems. So they become less of a thing. Oh, all right. Well, that makes sense. But it's like, you know, it's just like, you know, cause things I'd rather people, I say this, I'm like, I'd rather people bring their concerns internally first and listen to them and address them when you can, because they always come internally first, whether it's from an employee, whether it's from a customer, whether it's from anything. And it's just how we kind of handle those things as to whether they blow up into something bigger. And you name it. They just talked about whatever. And I always tried to give them something in return. What do you mean? So they come to talk to me and I'm like, I'd introduce them to someone that would help. I'd open a door for them. Wow. Wow. Okay. That seems to be like an implementable idea for all leaders, whether you're the CEO or not, is have office hours, have those meetings with anybody who wants to talk to you that works at your company. I'm curious, Angie, if you were, you probably get these requests all the time, but let's say you're going to go back to HBS and you're going to teach a class. and they say, Angie, the only umbrella, the only high-level thing that the class has to be around is leadership. Anything under that word, you can make up whatever you want. I'm curious, what would be your class? What would you want to teach? What would be a part of the syllabus if you were hired at HBS to teach something about leadership? Yeah. I mean, to this day, I still love talking to customers. I think we live in a very digital age And I feel like we don't talk to one another very much. People like people. They need to feel kind of heard and kind of things resolved. I mean, so I took that office hours idea. Now I do it with customers. So any pro can sign up and talk to me. Same deal. You know, like talk about whatever you want. Gives me a chance to kind of understand, get a pulse on what's going on. Dedicate about the same amount of time to it right now. But it would probably be about how you can get closer to the people that are your customers and the people that impact your customers the most. I do think that understanding that customer care rep or the people kind of on the front line, you know, they're the ones that are making your brand. I mean, the marketing team might make some great social posts and some great TV ads and things like that. But many times kind of the people that are manning the phones or your chats or things like that are the ones that are leaving more lasting impression on your brand than anything else. And how do you bring kind of the voice of the customer into the organization? That's important. I mean, like in our particular business, I mean, we are. Home improvement, not everybody in our company is a homeowner. How do you make sure they can kind of understand the customer and kind of what life is like as a small business owner, as a pro? What's it like for a homeowner when something goes awry on their worst day? And kind of how do they kind of think through that problem set? And so how do I kind of bring those stories to life? I love that. It reminds me of Kat Cole, another amazing leader. She's the CEO of Athletic Greens, and she's had various roles. And she said, you got to speak with the people constantly who don't necessarily have the power to make the change, but they have the knowledge because they're on the front lines. You have to have open lines of communication with them at all times when you're the CEO. I'm like, that is so good. It's also like General Stanley McChrystal, who's a four-star general, who said, you still got to go out on the front lines. It's dangerous. Do what you got to do. But if you're just sitting in the meeting room or in the corner office and do the occasional Zoom meeting, that doesn't work. You've got to go out and talk to them and get the feedback and listen to them and understand what's actually happening as opposed to trying to make decisions by committees in a corner office. Yeah. And it's like it was something that I was early on. I was like, I had to convince myself that it was a good use of time. And I think that is something that kind of busy people that have lots of responsibility and are kind of active doers, overachievers to kind of sit back and talk and listen feels like, OK, am I moving the needle? It feels a bit too squishy. So that's why, you know, I would treat it just like some of the other things. I'm like, I will give it an hour a week. Let's do an hour. Let's see what happens there. And I could see kind of the payoff. You know, it's not that I went and said, I'm going to go spend 30% of my time doing this now. I can't do that. But there is an element. There is a portion of time that I do dedicate. Okay. Feedback, both from customers, employees. Sometimes people don't actually know what they want, whether I think of Henry Ford or Steve Jobs or others. They would have never built a car. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So how do you know how to manage the feedback? How do you know what to take and what to implement? And they're like, you know what? I don't know if they actually know what they want. They think they do, but they might not. And I feel like you'd be an expert at this because you've regularly gotten feedback for 30 years or so. How do you manage through what they say versus what you actually should be doing and what you have to kind of translate to what they would want? Yeah. And that was the point I was going to bring up because I think sometimes you can kind of take this to the extreme of like, this is just going to develop my product roadmap. It's not, but it is going to help to inform. It's interesting. It's like when I rolled out chatting with pros, for example, you know, I would hear things and I was like, okay, I hear you. Let me kind of take that back. And as I, as we, we kind of took the concern and didn't let them prescribe the product, right. And you kind of take that and you're like, Hey, here is a friction point How do we improve a friction point And over time it was interesting because we got really good at taking this feedback and not rewriting the product roadmap but kind of like making sure that as we improved our experience, we were thinking about those issues. And you could feel it. I could feel it come back in the conversations. I was like, I used to have conversations when they would have, you know, they'd bring this up 75% of the time. And I was like, I didn't necessarily have a clear roadmap of what I was saying, like, here's what's coming that's going to help alleviate that to now I have a roadmap. So I can kind of like, yep, I hear you. Here's where we're headed on this topic to like, then things just stop coming up, right? Because, you know, they addressed it. So I think it's a way to stay informed. But yeah, you can't realign the team every time you hear a new piece of feedback. You've got to work it into kind of your longer term plan. Yeah, it's hard. I know this is growing up with somebody who was beaten into me to be a coachable player as an athlete, be coachable, be coachable, listen to your coaches, listen to your teachers. So sometimes you can actually become a little bit too coachable or listen to too much feedback and it can steer you like, dude, you got to have an identity and you got to go as opposed to just changing every day based upon random feedback. That can be tough though, right? That's a tough balance. Right. And I think part of it is also just being honest and listening to a conversation, but also being like, I can do something with that. I can't do something with that. Having an honest conversation where it doesn't feel like there's spin in it and that authenticity kind of helps to play that and it can be reasonable, right? And the person you're talking to, like, okay, I understand why this is not on the short-term map, but this one over here is. I think there is that part of it too. I'm also really curious about partnerships in general and founders or co-founders. And you mentioned Bill a little bit, but sometimes you read about stories where these things just go really bad. They fight, somebody has to quit or buy them out, or they fade away or whatever. I'm curious from your story, what's the key to a good partnership? I mean, I think this could apply beyond just starting a business, but I am curious, what have you learned over the years that has been the key to a good partnership? it. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, part of it is finding someone that you have confidence in and you believe in. And I think that's one thing that we kind of found in each other, right? Because I think you have to be able to be able to share and have contentment in kind of like, I've got this, you've got this. I think if you're kind of constantly having the rub where you're like, I should be in charge of that, I should be in charge of that, then I think you kind of, you struggle in that. I mean, that was one thing that we did a nice job on. I mean, you know, and part of it, I mean, I was a good amount younger than Bill when we started. So he was a bit of a mentor to me, right, in this whole process. So there was kind of like, hey, let me guide you up here and then let's carve out this area. So there was an element of him being a fan as well, right, of like, hey, you can do this, you've got this in the process. And as the company grew, always being able to kind of talk frankly with one another and leave emotion at the door, right? It's kind of like, hey, this is working or this isn't working is an important element. You eventually merged with HomeAdvisor, correct? Yep. What was that like for you? Was there an identity shift or what was that like for you? Yeah. So that happened, what, eight years ago, nine years ago. When we first brought the business together, they kind of operated pretty independently. But HomeAdvisor was the brand that was being invested behind at the time. So that was kind of a bit of a shift in exposure. But then as we came along, I mean, one of the main thesis of kind of bringing those two businesses together was like the Angie's List brand. You combine that with the HomeAdvisor matching engine and how they were, from a technological standpoint, advancing beyond where Angie's List was, was interesting. And so in 2021, we actually brought the businesses closer together, flipped the name to Angie from Angie's List and ran everything, kind of built that up as the main brand. And today, we've also been working together to bring even our products, our pro products together and things like that. We're kind of coming to the point where the business is much simpler as far as from a kind of customer offering, which I think is great, and driving behind one brand, which simplifies, makes it easier, makes it relatable, and I think is an easier story to tell. So I think it's a good spot. So Angie, but take out the E. Like what happened with this name change? Yeah, take out the E. So if we roll back to 2011, when we were getting ready to go public, you have to have either a three or four letter ticker. Oh. Right? Right, right, right. So I was sitting around one day. I was like, well, we could call it list. I'm like, yeah, it's kind of generic. We could call it Angie. But then I got to re-spell it, which, you know, I don't like that. Then it was like I could make the ticker Bill in honor of Bill. But then that's just kind of odd. and people would maybe not enjoy it. We would find it very funny. People might not enjoy that from a branding perspective. So ended up going with Angie with an I. And so that kind of got a bit of a life of its own. And then fast forward a few years, even before the merger, and I was contemplating dropping the list at one point because I was like, I think we're bigger. Maybe we're Angie's, right? We could be Angie's list. We've got a big deal. It was Angie's big deal. It could be Angie's whatever. And then in 2021, it was like, hey, let's just make it Angie. And an Angie with an I is an easier and more identifiable, unique thing than Angie with an E. So we poke a little fun at it now. So it's like, I'm Angie with an E, the company's Angie with an I. I get notes from people that I've known my entire life that now just spell my name with an I. Yeah, got you. So I am curious about actually hiring leaders. I think this could be very useful. When you are in a position and when you have been in positions to hire someone, whether it's a promotion or hiring from outside for a leadership role, I mean, being able to do whatever the specific task is, those are table stakes, but I'm talking about attributes of a person. What are some of those must-have attributes for Angie to say, yep, I want you to be a part of my leadership team? Yeah, I think it's got to be someone. Subject matter expertise is always important. So I always, you know, I'm like, you got to know what you're talking about, because, you know, I'm I think about it as like, hey, if you have to be that general that needs to go out on the front line, I want to know that you can go out on the front line. You know, because I think that speaks volumes for your team. So kind of knowing your stuff is super important, but also kind of understanding that your team is going to make you smarter. You know, so you don't want this person that is like, I know I'm the one that always knows the answer. You know, having someone that can kind of learn from their team and understand, you know, like I spent most of my career running marketing and marketing moves fast. Some of the youngest members of the team are kind of teaching me more things over the years than some of the more seasoned marketing people. So kind of how are you constantly having kind of a view about learning and staying kind of smart in the trade? And then ability to just be a good partner, work with people. That is important. Your job is not to come in and knock down walls. It's actually to build relationships because you can't do everything yourself. So how are you at building cross-department relationships? Yeah, I think that's super helpful. Let's say you went back again to be a guest lecturer and you're meeting with people who are recent grads and they want to leave a positive dent in the world like you're doing. What are some general pieces of life slash career advice you'd give to them? I would suggest that they one of my favorites, take your work very seriously. Be good at what you do. Don't always be looking for kind of that next thing that you got to go tackle. Do what's in front of you first. Don't take yourself too seriously. I think especially, you know, you kind of come out, you're like, oh, I have all of these credentials. I should therefore be able to do these things. It's like sometimes sometimes the envelopes need stuffed. And we might all do that together. So don't take yourself too seriously. We're going to do this together. And then be open to feedback and to helping others. And don't be afraid when people suggest things that seem totally counter. I think sometimes we get too rigid in our plans. I use the Angie's list as an example, right? I was supposed to be a consultant. I was supposed to go be a business consultant, but then Bill comes in and says, hey, what about this? I could have easily been a business consultant and had a nice life, but I chose that door. I think a lot of times people get a little too narrow in their focus and miss opportunities. So, you know, stay open to that. And then for me, it's all about the people you work with. So if you are working with people that you're learning from that believe in you, that's all that matters. I over index there. So if you find that you're not because people ask me this question, it's like, how are you still doing this after 30 years? I'm like, I ask myself two questions and if I can answer yes to those two questions, I'm in. If I answer no, I'm out. And the two things are, do I like the people I'm working with? and am I learning new things? And when you're as long in your career as I am, you have to dedicate time and effort to learning new things so that you don't become that person that is like, we do this because we've always done it this way, which I think is just like the worst line ever. I love those questions. What's next for you? For me, I love home improvement. I'm like, I told my husband the other day. Can you go out and like fix stuff yourself or no? You hire somebody for managing? I'm like, I did do some painting the other day myself, but no, I don't often fix things up myself. But I'm like, we were like, we're not going to do any like fancy new projects this year. We're just going to do what needs to be done. And, you know, I couldn't help myself. I redid the floor in my basement because. You did it? Or you hired somebody from. I like hired someone, but I was like, I needed a space that when my kids came home from college with their dogs, that it was just like a free zone for everybody in the family. And like best investment ever, but totally I was like, I've become that person. I'm doing things for the dogs. And somebody clarified, you're doing things for the grand dogs, actually. Amazing. I love it. I love it. I just got to say, I think you've come across as so genuine and competent and likable from before we even started recording. Like it's really, really cool. Like it's so easy to root for someone like you to keep crushing it. So thank you so much for doing this. where would you send my viewers listeners to learn more about you online um you can go to angie.com angi.com man that is how much did it cost to get that well that's why you dropped the e but still it's four letters a four letter url man uh you guys have done well enough to invest in that that's really good angie no i i love this i really really appreciate it and i would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress that's great i would love it It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Angie Hicks. A few takeaways from my notes. Lead by listening and showing up, whether it's knocking on doors as a 23-year-old or meeting employees during office hours as CEO. Angie is a great reminder for all of us that being present, paying attention, and seeking feedback is one of the most critical aspects of being an effective leader. And then focus on people and learning. Angie's career filter. Very simple. Do I like the people I'm working with? Am I learning new things? If yes, keep going. If not, it's time to reconsider excellence. It's not just about the results. It's about the environment and the growth all around you. And then I love this. Take your work seriously, but not yourself. Confidence, humility, and authenticity go hand in hand. Angie shows us that you can be very ambitious and really driven without losing sight of the human side of leadership. I found her to be so likable and competent and kind and curious, both on air and off. She was really, really great, and I hope you enjoyed this one. I want to say thank you once again for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Angie Hicks. I think she'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that. And you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts and you subscribe to the show and rate it hopefully five stars and write a thoughtful review. Doing all of that helps me continue to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait. Thank you.