The Kenneth Copeland Interview (EP 186)

It's hard for me to wrap my mind around this idea that God wants everyone to be wealthy, everyone to be healthy and things like that. No, I didn't say that. I said we want everybody to be able to prosper. Being rich is more than enough to take care of what you have and enough left over to help somebody take care of themselves. The thing that's more attractive to people about this prosperity, health and wealth message is those things rather than Jesus. Where do you find, hey, this is something I enjoy versus this is something that maybe sitting on the throne of my heart. Before we get into this interview, there's a couple things that I want to tell you guys about. Kenneth Copeland is a prosperity gospel preacher who teaches another gospel that says God wants every Christian to be healthy, wealthy and prosper. And if you aren't doing those things as a Christian, then it is your fault. I want to clarify, I do not agree with the prosperity gospel. That's the whole reason why we sat down. When we got the opportunity to do the first sit-down interview with Kenneth Copeland in over 15 years, I made it very clear to them. I was like, hey guys, I disagree. I'm going to be very respectful in the conversation, but I do not agree with the prosperity gospel. And so this interview is a little bit different where I sat back and asked a lot more questions from a journalistic perspective, whereas I wanted to understand where he gets this doctrine from. I really don't understand. I want to know how he finds it in scripture, what that looks like to the person and ask a lot of questions and do more digging to let the idea speak for itself so that we can understand why the true gospel is important. You know, I believe Paul makes a good case in Second Corinthians that sometimes God allows a thorn in our side to keep us humble and reliant on him. And so it was fun to hear his perspective and challenge him, even though I disagree. And I want to be very cautious by going into this, but also my heart was First Timothy 5. Kenneth Copeland is in the latter parts of his age. She's a little bit older. And I tried to do my best to hold to First Timothy 5, which says, do not rebuke an old man, but appeal to him as a father. And so I tried to come at him with challenges as if I was challenging my father and not a harsh rebuke, quote unquote. So I pray that as you watch this interview, you listen to it. He's going to tell a lot of his stories. And then when we get into the prosperity part, that the questions that I ask, I pray that they compel you in such a way to thank God for the true gospel and not that God just wants material things for our life, but that God wants us and that he is the prize, even if we lose everything, because that is the goal. I love you guys. Thank you again to the Copeland Network. You guys are extremely hospitable to us and welcoming us to have this sit down interview and enjoy this episode. 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If you're going to pay for phone service anyways, why wouldn't you support a company that actually has Christian values and morals and the heart behind the company is to see the gospel go for it? Switching is way easier than you think. Plus, I'll give you 15% off for life and give you the first month for free if you just use my promo code, Bryce. Let's live out what we believe. So go to www.patreonmobile.com or call 972-patriot today. What's going on guys? Welcome back to another Bryce Crawford podcast. I'm Bryce and today we have an incredible guest sitting down with us. I mean, from my knowledge, this man hasn't done a sit down interview in over a decade. And so we're excited to welcome Kenneth Copeland with us this morning. How are you? I'm doing good. Good. Well, thank you for being with us. All is well in the household of faith. So if you just stay with it, everything will work. Amen. Well, thank you for being with us. I'm grateful that you're here and letting us come and visit you and be with you. But for anyone that doesn't know anyone anything about you, next generation, who are you? Where are you from? What was that like? I was born in Lubbock, Texas, December 6, 1936. Of course, that was right at the tail end of the Great Depression. And then my dad moved us to Abilene, Texas. And we lived on 733 Sunset Drive. And my dad brought a brand new nice house for $1,750. And he worked for John's Business College. So since he was in education, then during World War II, his fuel wasn't rationed. And so he traveled a lot. And then there in Abilene, I grew up there. And then in 1952, we moved to Fort Worth. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to be an Abilene Eagle. Well, let me fast forward about this far. When I was in high school, probably high school had never, in baseball, track, everything else, but not in football. And so my class and my quarterback was Hunter Ennis, and he and I are still really close friends today. And so we did it. We went all the way up. Guess who we played in the final? The Abilene Eagles. And they beat us 46 to nothing. But so far, I believe, Goldpoly, they're going to get there one of these days. Well, and while I was in high school, they did a teen times, foremost dairy company, did a teen time talent scale. And I was 18. And of course, seeing I tried out for it. And there was a girl in high school, her name was Jimmy Faye Powell, and Jimmy Faye could just play. And so we went to the WBAP Fort Worth Studios here and found out what all to do. And the set was set up like, you know, like a drug store. And Pat Boone was the, but was the head of it. So I sang several things to audition. And of course, my big song was, Oh Man River. They said, that's probably not going to go on what we want to do. How about you wore a blue velvet. Well, that's more like it. But money, honey. Over there, it's more like what we want. I like that. That sounded great. So I won it three times and got a little radio. And I wanted three more times. And we went to the studio and counted it down to 10 and turned on the switch. And it was color. It was Friday evening, Buley Barn Dance. I had on a white hat and sang Ghost Riders in the Sky. And Pat and I and the family are still very, very, very close. Awesome. Anyway, in coming to Fort Worth, there were things that took place here, you know, in my life. And I had a hit record back in 1957 called Pledge of Love. I'd been in the Army. And then Terry, my first daughter was born while I was in the service there. And of course, you know, she's just precious. And of course, George Pearson says my son-in-law and he pastors EMI, the church. Anyway, I went out there trying to get in that entertainment business and it didn't work. But how did that did come that recording contract? How did that deal? So a lot of pressure. And I gave up on it. I just quit. I went to my dad. Now, my dad said, if I just didn't sip your head, it wouldn't be anything but motorcycles and airplanes come out. Well, right there at the end of World War II, they saw that the war was practically over anyway. So there was a man by the name of Wooten in Abilene. And the Wooten Hotel and a number of things there. And someone called my dad. I never did know who it was and said, we're going to fly Mr. Wooten's airplane. Would you and your son like to come? Well, anyone that's familiar with Amelia Earhart, it was that little lock-heat elector that she flew. That's what it was. I can see it in my mind right now. The guy got everything settled in the back seat. I was already in the front. He looked over there and he said, don't you touch anything. I sat there like this and I was off the ground. Well, now we talk about, now you have what you say, but I didn't know that then. And I was walking away and my dad had me by the hand of eight or nine years old. I said, daddy, I'm going to do that. He said, what? I'm going to fly airplanes. He said, boy, you can do it. Well, then came to Fort Worth. And I remember my dad saying to my mother, eight of him, Veneta Copeland. And my grandfather was Chum Owens. He's blood jerky. He went to sign in for the draft and they said, no, we can't use your nickname Chum. What's your name? W.E. What does that stand for? William Elmer. He named himself that day. They're jerky, Ven. Anyway, then he's my grandfather. And just, oh, what a guy. Anyway, we did go to the Anyway, we did go out there on that old farm and spend a lot of time there. So he went to work for a national line insurance company there in Little Rock. It now has merged with other people. There was a car lot in Fort Worth at 1010 Texas street. I understand it didn't fare anymore, but it was then. I worked there for a man by the name of Bill Golightly. And he also owned an aviation company. So I came home and told my dad, I said, you said, you see that I got an education. I said, I want to learn how to fly. So he shook my hand. He said, all right, I'll stay with you till he gets you commercial on your own. So I sold them August the 24th at four o'clock in the afternoon at Meacham Field, 12 years before DFW, Love, Vyland, Dallas. And most people won't understand this, but aviators will. The final approach fix on an instrument landing system is called the outer marker. Well, Jim Couch had been a military instructor. And I'd had a couple of other instructors that weren't all that good. So Bill brought him in. And he said, you want to learn how to fly or just water around in the sky? I said, I want to learn how can you take it? I said, I can't if you can dish it out. But needless to say, he did teach me how to fly. I got to fly. So I lined up out there in this little Susna 150. 5523 Echo is ready for take off. Roger that 23 Echo. You're number eight to follow with DC three just outside the outer marker. Do they have something painted on a barn out here? I said, sir, this is my first solo. All right, 23 Echo, can you hold your heading? Yes, sir. Can you hold your altitude? Yes, sir. You've turned base me. I'm leaving downwind turn basing in final. As soon as you see that DC three, go under your wing, you can turn base. So I did it. I did three touching goes by myself. I am a pilot. I don't know anything. And I'm going on to that and I got my private license. Now I'm working on them. And then I kept working at that. And now I need a multi-engine rating. And I'm just going up the ladder in the aviation world. And TCU was playing Arkansas in 1961 for the Southwest Conference Championship. And so I asked, I told Bill, what about my dad bought cars from him? How about my dad going? He said, there's no place to stay. I said, well, yeah, maybe I said, dad, call up there and see if you can get the penthouse. So we did. Well, I went to an after game party. Of course, my dad didn't care anything about going to that. And that penthouse anyway, a man came up to me and said, my daughter's the best looking girl in the state of Arkansas. And I was doing this, a comedian back there in those days called Brother Dave, Dave Gardner. Just funny, never off colored at all. And one of my favorite was, hey, James Lewis, put down that wheelbarrow. You know you don't know nothing about machinery. And the giant, he's a Philadelphia. Anyway, acting a fool at that party. And this man kept telling me that. He said, I'm going to prove it to you. So I told him, you know, how to get there around the party. I know where all that is. So I'm standing there. Sunday, August the eighth, 1961, October, beautiful blue cobalt sky. Looking at that elevator. Best looking girl in the state of Arkansas was going to get off this elevator. That elevator opened up and said, oh, man, he wasn't kidding. I said, Gloria, I'm thinking about it. It still brings tears to my eyes, I think. We walked out there. And we walked out there for some reason. She just reached over and patted me on the back and I fell in love with her. I never heard of the root of bitterness, but it just left me. Let me tell you something. So I said, if you ever been on an airplane ride, no, would you like to go? Even my mother can go. So we went down and I told Bill about it. He said, sure, just put them in the back seat. And I had to show both of them out of fashion, the seat belt. And we flew around. Her dad was there and they got back in the car. Bill said, Kenneth, you take the mother. I'll take the daughter, especially compared to women I ever saw in my. And he wasn't kidding. Maude, they're just beautiful. Anyway, my father-in-law was a war hero. And for those that know, of course, I was in the United States Army in 1957, but I have a picture of him on the back D-Day, 4th of June. D-Day, 4 June, 44. First and big red one over here. Where he was sitting, two hash marks for years of combat, the blue infantry, braid, which meant he's in the infantry. And three rockers up and three rockers down with the diamond in the middle, or he's top soldier, Sergeant Major. And his next rank would have been second lieutenant. All of that in combat. The North African campaign, first infantry division was under patent. The North African campaign, battle of the R.D. And that was the battle of the bulls. Here's just a Sunday school teacher from Arkansas. Came back home, PTSD, began to drink. And anyway, I said, Gloria, I need to ask your dad's hand in marriage. And he said, well, yeah, I introduced you to her. And this little girl's head bouncing back and forth. And it was Jan, and she's been in the ministry now over 50 years. So that's a little bit of background behind him. He had a massive heart attack. Now, he remarried. He was a young man. He was a young man. He had a massive heart attack. Now, he remarried. Monair never did. But his wife was a member of the First Baptist Church in Nashville, Arkansas. They rushed him to the hospital. And of course, Gloria and I flew over there since we could. Her pastor said, Copeland, I waited until there was absolutely nothing, no part of that operation left. And I took him down the Roman road. No more PTSD. He never took another drink. Glory to God forevermore. You went home at 77 years old. Isn't that magnificent? God doesn't fail. And it's a rich thing. Well, when you were growing up, when did you claim to have start following Jesus? Like how old were you? Well, I was raised right all my life. Your parents were believers? You kidding? My mother was a switcher. She'd get behind my little legs and... My daddy, he was a disciplinarian. But he was a military man? No. No, he wasn't? No, not a military man. He was in between the wars. And her appendix ruptured on the basketball court. And back in the day, that was a death sentence. And so they told her that she probably wouldn't live... Well, he'd just use cadaver clamps. Because he'd got in there ruptured. My grandfather went in there and said, she dies, you die. So he sold her up, but didn't do a good job of it. And she suffered from that all the life. But you grew up in a Christian household. Oh, I did. And my dad, he's just my hero, man. That's awesome. And he'd say to me, Kenneth, you did that again, I'm going to whip you. Twice I did it again. And he did it. He said, all right. And then what I told you, it may be two or three days later. I realized later, he wouldn't do it if he's hurt or mad. But he'd take his belt. And he'd tan my rear end. And I think about him today. I'm so glad that he did. Because I grew up with great respect for him. I mean, when he walked into the room, as a grown man, I stood up. And we went camping together one time on a ranch out that he had a friend out there that had some land in the soil bank. And so we went out there to go camping and talk about some things about ministry and so forth. And so I said, you want a cup of coffee before we get in the tent? Well, then their soil conservation, they had water that was coming down. And so I went down this little stream. And I had just no metal coffee pot. And I had already washed it out and everything was clean. And I just scooped up some water there and the ball didn't make coffee. And so the next morning we got up. And I said, dad, that coffee was good last night. Well, yeah, can't be good. I said, well, this morning I'm not going to get another frog like I did in this one. I scooped up a little frog. There's a frog in the coffee. And then that thing, it just cooked him. We both just lost it. He said, OK, no frogs. But that was my dad and I. If I got to travel with him in his traveling, it was just absolutely wonderful. Oh, I think that's amazing. I think Malachi 4.6 talks about the hearts of fathers turning their sons and their sons turning to fathers. And I think more than now than ever, especially my generation, I get so important for fathers and mothers to believe in my generation. And that really encourages them to. And we would talk together, visit about things together. And I remember one time, mother had all me she wanted. I mean, all she wanted. She grabbed a belt and took out after me and I said, mama, that's enough. And I jerked it away from her. Don't ever do that. It was when the Cherokee eyes started doing this. She jumped on me. I said, mama, I'm sorry. No, get off of me. And she started laughing. I started laughing. They wouldn't do anything. But anyway, so you had met Gloria after that after that after party, the Arkansas TCU game and you guys get get married. I remember you say. OK. We we went on to Arkansas and in Central Flying Service, I got the multi engine rating. And all was really going good. And so in a beach craft baron. And then. And so my boss was Claude Hovert. And he was my best man. And Joe Stewart, who was CEO was a Southern Baptist preacher. And we chose April the 13th. And so we got married in his living room. And you you had asked her to marry you on your first date, correct? Yes, we walked up on the poor. Well, I did my thing. Now, Mac, I told him all about him. He said, now you take her to the rocket room down at the hotel. They have one time jukebox. So Johnny Mathis came on singing Misty. So I sang Misty to her while we're dancing. She didn't act like it even happened. Walked up on the porch. I said, Gloria, will you marry me? OK. And went inside and said, what have I done? I don't even know this guy. Oh, well, I get out of it later. That's 64 years later. Wow. But you sang to her while y'all dance. Yes, what was that? That's real Riz. Do you know what Riz is? Have you ever heard that? That's like a Riz. You swooned her. I did everything I could think of. It sounds like you had a real Riz. Look at me. I like that. Wait, do I? Look at me. I'm as helpless as a kitten up a tree. Feel like I'm clinging to a cloud. I can't understand. I get nervous. I can't understand. I get misty just holding your hand. Walk my way and a thousand violins begin to play. Is it the sound of your hello? The music I hear. I get misty the moment you're near. Does that take you back to that moment? Oh, yeah. But the other one was a great price tune. You're the best thing that ever happened to me. Oh, wow. I've had my share of life's ups and downs. Life's so good that downs have been few. I know it's because he has blessed me. And I know it's because he gave me you. If anyone should ever write my life story. We just finished the edit on it about two days ago. That's so cool that you and Gloria met. We've never had an argument. There's been discussions and we've just sit and talk about it. I only raised my voice to her one time. And I don't remember living in a little rent house. I don't remember now what set it off. And I just stopped in the middle of it. I said, oh, glory. Oh, baby, you don't deserve this. And I just fell down over this couch and I said, I got a preach. She said, I know it. Let's go back to 1962. I flew a man from Little Rock to Shreveport. He went by the name of Weir. He was an executive with the Arkansas and Louisiana Natural Gas Company. I came back and got him off. I told her to be late. And I got back in. She was at Stowe. I can see it in my mind right now. I went in and took my suit off and came back in there. There was a kitchen there, a little dinette there and sat down. And I heard it in my spirit. Kenneth, you don't get right with me. You had to do a devil's hell. I said, I know it. Oh, what do I do now? I heard a woman by the name of Ms. Taggart, Sunday School Teacher in the University of Baptist Church, Nabilene, Texas. Boys, you have to ask Jesus to come into your heart. I thought, that's old lady Taggart. That's what we call her. She called herself that. She's a widow. I said, well, here goes Jesus. Now I never heard of any new creature. Jesus come into my heart. Profanity was gone from that day to this. So in 1962, you said this? Then I got to tell Gloria. She's really Church Christ, not in Baptist Church. I said, I was sitting like this in that little chair. I said, Gloria, she got him, came over there. I said, come here. What if I were to speak for God or give my testimony? She said, hallelujah. I said, what? She said, well, the Bible, your mother sent you that you never did read. Said, Ken Precious, Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and all these things will be added to you. She said, I just said, Lord, I need things, so take my life and do something with it. We jumped up and hugged one another. January 1963, a man by the name of William Standish Reed was having a Christian Medical Foundation meeting. They said, anybody who wants to come up, I turn around to my mother. I said, that's something we ought to have. Yeah, I just grabbed Gloria up. We went. All the men were praying for me, and all the women were praying for her. And hang on to let it go. I didn't know what they wanted me to do, but the men just gave up on me. So Gloria was standing right there, and they were still praying for her. So he said, come over here. Lay your hands on her. I said, no. Oh, why? Lay your hands on her. I did. I'm telling you, I'm paying the power of God, like knock me backwards. And I stumbled back up on this little makeshift platform. Oh, I did all the things I could do. I nearly did it again. I brought the delicacy of God. And then I got a little glow. I said, I got to go back to work. So Monday, so let me know what takes place. Well, the next day she received. First time in her life, she'd heard the term born again. And we met people that were lifelong friends that day, which she came back to Little Rock with, and they lived in Little Rock. But I knew so little about it. I'm flying a small airplane. I'm just sitting there thinking and talking to myself, just about as loud as I'm talking now, just the drone of the airplane. And I said, Lord, I don't know what all I know about this. I must have heard the word anointing there, because I never heard it in my life. I'm going to say some of those words again. And anything to this for me, I'm asking you to anoint them. Here it came again. Now I'm concerned. I got to talk to these people. Well, I said, get in to the city, Lord God. I'm going to have to talk to the ATC or what again, Little Rock, I thought, well, that worked. That's how little I knew. Landed, I'm telling you. I laid my hands on the airplane, the car, everything you could think of. And so that's where it began. And how long have you been in ministry for and had KCM? Now? Yeah, now to this day. Well, I was in the ministry before we started KCM in 24 January 1964. I'd already been preaching to the full gospel of innings, fellowships and things like that before that. And but that's when this ministry started. Wow. So this January is 59 years. And I've done a lot of traveling, traveled, been times that sitting in the makeup chair with Sherrod like we did today, I'd sit there so exhausted, I didn't know, I couldn't tell how I was going to do what I had to do. And with stress. And I was preaching for Mike Barber in a tent meeting, a prison tent meeting, and I got short of breath. And I had no idea why. Well, I went to the cardiologist and he checked me out. I had one blocked artery, but it had bypassed itself. But I had AFib because of all that stress. And so they installed a pacemaker. And the FAA has dealt with pacemakers a long time. There's what they call the Bruce protocol. And I'll get to that in a moment. Well, the apostle Paul said physical exercise is good. Prophet of the little it just means it doesn't last. Oh, you have to do it every day. But that doesn't mean don't do it. He didn't. He told him about it. He intended for him to do it. But spiritual exercise, of course, is greater than that. That's more prosperous. That's what he said. I had dealt with that already and got a lot of weight off. But then this thing happened and I had the Lord say, I created you to rest 52 days a year. You don't rest 52 days in five years and you're exhausted. So he was speaking to you about the Sabbath. Well, and when was that? Oh, back 2004. Wow. That was something that I had been getting convicted about recently. It was like, you know, there's a purpose that God designed the Sabbath and you can get a lot done in six days. But you need to rest and resting. I have a really good treadmill and you can rest on that treadmill. Just go in there and take a look at the treadmill. Rest on that treadmill. Just go in there and take a nice walk. I don't have to go outside to do it. It's right there in my home now. But the exercise part is to get it moving. Get the heart going. Get the heart going. Get it going. Work it. Work it. Work it. Work it. Work it. Gradually work right up to it. And so that's been a pretty consistent rhythm in your life since 2004. Well, now 2004, the Lord directed me to do a live big band album with a group called Joshua Experience. Rehearsal. Rehearsal. Rehearsal. Rehearsal with this big band. And there are spots and places. I mean, you know, I mean, anybody can Google it and listen. But and there were spots and places where, you know, it had to be correct. Normally I shower at night. And if you walk into my bathroom there, if I woke up to my shower stall, the shower stand is here. And there is a bench across here this way. And there were some other things that that had happened right before that convention. And I was just exhausted. So I waited until Sunday morning to take my shower. And I just let that hot water go across me and I pitched the shower to the bench and it didn't make it. It went in the corner. I twisted to pick it up and I ruptured a disc in my back. And I screamed. I crawled out of that shower. I couldn't walk. That's the worst. I crawled out of there. And the young man and his wife, there were chiropractors at that time, David Lynn Weeder, just screaming and screaming. I crawled out of there and Glory called in just immediately. But then that was corrected with stem cells. I disobeyed God. I didn't do what he said. Start walking. Don't quit. I paid the price right there in that shower. I had a bowl cut when I was younger and I don't want you to have the same bowl I had. And so that's why I love these products from Based Body Works. Based Body Works texture powder and their sea salt spray bring actual hair structure, natural matte finishing and no buildup in your hair. These products use silica and rice powder so that you don't have a bowl cut like I sometimes do when I wake up in the morning so that you can be confident with your hair. With Based Body Works, confidence is the actual outcome, not just knowing that you look good, but knowing that the products that you're using are actually good for you. If you've been using the same products forever without actually thinking twice about what's inside of them, it's worth it to take a look. Based Body Works is clean, plant-based, men's grooming that actually works. Use code BRICE for 20% off at BasedBodyWorks.com and you'll get a free toiletry bag when you purchase a set because confidence shouldn't come at the cost of your health. Go to BasedBodyWorks.com, use code BRICE for 20% off, get that free toiletry bag, get your set because confidence should not come at the cost of your health. All right guys, so I'm back with Brother Copeland here and we're getting ready to dive into the scriptures. I have a lot of questions about the prosperity, abundance, health and wealth. Growing up for me personally, if I'm being completely honest, it's really hard for me to wrap my mind around the prosperity message and things like that. I just wanted to have some dialogue here. Where do you get this from in scripture? Where do you see this? Kind of share my thoughts, but before we kind of dive into the scripture and where you get your perspective, from your perspective, according to scripture, how do you define abundance and prosperity? Well, Jesus came and said, the thief comes but for the steal, to kill and destroy. I've come that you might have life and have it more abundantly. Prosperity, when one mentions prosperity, most people think about money. Now, money is not the root of all evil. The Bible said the love of it is and there are people that commit that that don't have any money. True prosperity starts with John 3.16. That's where it starts. And then you go from there, you go to the second chapter of the book of Acts because being able to pray in the spirit is the gateway to the supernatural. And you're just not ready to prosper all that big financially yet. But I would say just from my experience over the last, well, 57, 58 years, that the biggest part of Christians do not know that they've been redeemed from the curse of the law. What does that look like? Well, let's just take a look and see. Let's read this. Deuteronomy 8.18. Thou shalt remember, okay, we got to remember this. The Lord thy God, for it is he that gives you the power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant, which he swore unto your fathers, as it is this day. This is covenant business. And this book is a book of blood covenants, the blood of animals, blood by circumcision, the sinless blood of Jesus. Let's go over here to Galatian chapter three. And then we'll go back and see what that curse looks like. 13th verse Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us for it is written. Now, let me just stop right here. The integrity of this written word is absolutely essential. Rightly dividing it is essential. Understands what it, understanding what it means when one receives communion. When I finally realized that I'm a blood brother, but Jesus Christ, I'd rather die than to do anything to shame him ever, ever, ever. I don't remember now why our airplane was in a shop or something. Anyway, I was reading EW Kenyon's book, The Blood Covenant. And this is back in the day when you could just take a shuttle, you know, this, listen to this, that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. I speak not after the manner of men, though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed no man disannuals are edged thereto. Now, verse 29, and if you be Christ, then you Abraham seed and heirs according to the promise. Now we got to go back over and see what that's all about. So we'll go back here to the book of Deuteronomy once again. They had just come out of Egypt. There's about two million of them. So if you can imagine two of them on Mount Evald and Mount Gerazine, there's a million of them over here on one side and they're shouting across that valley of Shechem. They're shouting across there and they have come in and it comes back and said, now this day, so chapter 27, Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people saying, keep all the commandments which I command you this day and it shall be on the day when you pass over Jordan. Now here's where we're going and we get over Jordan. We're going to run into trouble. It shall be on this day when you pass over Jordan under the land which the Lord thy God giveeth thee, that thou shalt set thee up great stones and plaster them with plaster and shall write upon the words of the law. Now let's stop right here. When Cain killed Abel, there was no law against it. So that began the law and the prophets and once a prophet of God spoke something into this earth, there's no way the devil could get it out. He had it to deal with and it started out. I'm going to paraphrase. There's coming one. He's coming. Well, he killed every prophet he could find thinking maybe this is the one. But there was a great announcement made one day in the Jordan River. Now John the Baptist said, I mean, you know, I can't do this. I don't want to. Jesus said this, you must do it, that all these things be fulfilled. Now when you go back to God in the beginning, the word is Elohim, the plural, that us make man in our image. So now we're headed in that direction and the word came, this is my beloved son, hear ye him and the devil says, I got him. So he was on every prophet. He was kill everybody he possibly could trying to get up to that point. But this is so important to you, to me and to all believers. Now the verse of the 11, Moses charged the people the same day saying, these shall sound stand on Mount Garazim to bless the people when you come over Jordan. Simeon, Levi, Judah. Okay, that's our side of the mountain. Ishakar, Joseph and Benjamin. That's the apostle Paul's side of the mountain. These shall stand on Mount Ebal. Now Ebal was alkaline and nothing. I mean, couldn't anything grow on it when you really see a picture of it to curse. Reuben Gad, Asher Zebulon, Dan and Neshtali. And the Levites shall speak and say unto all the men, cursed be the man that makes a graven image a molten image. Well, I have no other gods before me. I make no graven image. That's commandment number two. And all the people answered say, cursed is he that's light by the father of his mother. And all the people shall say, I mean, there's roar going back across there. You probably could have heard it from miles. Cursed is he that removes the neighbor's landmark. Now come on over here to the 18th verse, our 20th chapter. It shall come to pass if you will harken diligently to the voice of the Lord thy God to observe and do all of his commandments, which I command thee this day after the Lord thy God was set the hive of all nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come on you and overtake you if you'll harken or listen under the voice of Jehovah your God. Blessed shall you be in the city. Blessed shall you be in the field. Now I want to stop right here. It's become the blessing of Abraham. But if you go to book one, he created everything and blessed it and saw that it was good. And he created this whole garden and everything before he put the man in it. And if you take a good look at that, blessed is the first word the first man ever heard. So it was the blessing of Adam. But it came down to be the blessing of Abraham for this reason. Abraham, 17th chapter of Genesis. Well, let's go. That's good. One of my Bible teachers growing up said always be a good respectful skeptic. Like read the word. You notice, well, let me put it this way. You can't fight thoughts with thoughts. Jesus said, why take your thoughts saying you shall say under this mountain, you can't think and get anything done about it. You can't fight thoughts with the, you have to fight thoughts with words and faith filled words dominate the laws of sin and death. Now, Genesis 17, Abraham, you need to go back and study Abraham. This is some kind of guy. Now, I mean, all those kings came against him and, you know, old Chad said, you take, I'll take the people. You take, I'll take the money. Abram said, don't ever let it be said that any man made Abram rich, but almighty God, I don't want to, I don't, I don't even want the strings out of your shoes. Well, he just armed his household. So, you know, there was a lot of supernatural stuff in that because they owned the night. Well, when I was in the US army, we, we ruled the night. I mean, that's, but that's where it started. I am El Shaddai. El Shaddai is the God who's more than enough. It really refers to a man, a woman's breast that, that when a woman has children like Gloria, for instance, she's everything. She could understand them what they said and I didn't have a clue. But she spent all day and all night with them. Well, I am El Shaddai. Walk before me and be perfect, be blameless. I will make my covenant between me and thee and will multiply thee exceedingly. Abram fell on his face. And you might think like this, there's been a whole lot more times and months I fell on my face and God spoke with me. That was true when I went to oil you because I had 27, 24,000 dollars left. I'd had an open vision. I knew I was supposed to be there. And I just fell on my face and on this little, this little house that they had arranged for us. I just fell out of my face, man, just praying in the spirit as fast as I could. And I stopped and thought, I wonder if he'd say anything if I was to, well, it's about time I couldn't get anything in edge. Why get on your feet. Man, I hit a military brace. I was standing there shaking all night, not just shaking all over. He said, I sent you here. I'll take care of you here. Your ministry doesn't start. Well, after you get out of school, it starts now. They can't make a minister out of you. I've already made a minister out of you. All they can do is train you. I went out and Gloria said, what took, what happened to all night long? That's where there's my direction. So I had already been to orientation. Mrs. Campbell is printing the first quarter. I don't have any money. I said, Miss Campbell, may I make a click called Yaudaulant. I call my dad. He said, where are you? I said, I'm a registrar's office in Orle Roberts University. Why? He said, Eddie Matthews, now Eddie Matthews was in the construction business. He had no idea where I was. Eddie Matthews came by and brought a check and said it was for your ministry. I said, how much? $375.15. Wow. I had about the 15 cents later and I thought, well, Gloria and I'll get a candy bar and go broke. So now he said he'd take care of me, paid that bill, and the Lord absolutely arrested me out there in front of the LRC. Go up to the sixth floor. And this just came out of my mouth. I said, no, that's the Vatican. I'm not supposed to be up there. Right in here. Where are any, not out here. Where any believer has, they worked for me. First thing I had to do is find the elevator. I couldn't do it. I pushed the fifth floor. Just to open, well, it was the first year of ORU. I didn't know it. It was the library. Didn't have anything in it yet. He said, floor six. Okay. Remember now, I'll take care of you here. That elevator opened. I walked up to this woman. I said, my name is Kenneth Copeland. I just registered for school. I'm a commercially rated pilot and I need all the help I can get. She said, tell Dean I am a, I just registered today and I'm a commercially rated pilot. I understand this minister use aircraft. I need all the help I can get. He went, I turned around. My name's oral Roberts. I actually stuttered. Listen to this. I got my first faith. Listen, two weeks ago, I started to hire a new copilot. The spirit of the Lord said, that's the same spirit that said, I'll take care of you here. The spirit of the Lord said, I have a student coming and you're my man. Tell brother, we got our copilot. The spirit of God told him, no, don't hire that guy. I have a student coming that's supposed to have the job. He's not going to tell me that ahead of time. I'm going to have to walk by faith, which I did. Well, he became my father in the spirit. That kind of trust. I realized out there in front of that LRC, he arrested me. I actually had, where I just kind of stuck. I realized I could have turned and walked off and said, no, I don't, I don't have any money. I'd have been a world of hurt because I didn't need any more money. Then, later, this was so cool. A man by the name of Colin Steele was head of everything on the road. I was in two of the last tent meetings at that. And things, he said, I'll take care of you here. Things began to advance. Then, brother Steele came to me and he said, Kenneth, you're a grown man. I want you to drive the revs car. Well, all right. And brother Dewey said, now, then don't start a conversation with him. He let him go first. So we were in Oklahoma City. He wouldn't let anything disturb his thinking because of the gift he had in his right hand. And it was so powerful. He just stopped. He had his butt. He said, Kenneth, I jumped. People will always tell you, you can't do it. Find out the will of God. Now, that's when you search this book. And that's when you pray and talk and think things about it. Confer no longer with flesh and blood. Get your job done at all costs. One, two, three. You know, I think you said something interesting earlier about, about like abundance and prosper, when we were in your intro into that subject, you know, you mentioned something you said, you know, the love of money. There's people that don't have money that struggle with the love of money. I grew up, I worked on boats in Destin, Florida, and I had a coworker double my age who had no money, atheist wouldn't believe in Jesus. I would talk to him about him all the time. And I'm right there with you. I agree. I don't think there's a dollar amount on someone's bank account that makes it sinful, because obviously my coworker at the time, he really struggled with money. I think the hardest thing for me to wrap my mind around like the name it claim it, the prosperity for me, is when I when I look at in the second Corinthians passage of Paul, right? Paul is writing about that thorn in his side. And you know, there's theological debate on what that is. But, but you know, he says, I'm grateful for this thorn because it keeps me humble and relying on God. Oh, absolutely. And so it's hard for me to wrap my mind around this idea that God wants everyone to be wealthy, everyone to be healthy and things like that. When we didn't say that, say we want everybody to be to prosper. John said it. I pray that you prosper and be in health as yourself. Being rich is more than enough to take care of what you have and nothing left over to help somebody take care of themselves. So is it so is now let me let me back up. We were going on started out with nothing. And now we have offices and staff on five continents. We didn't try to do that. We started out on the radio. I was I was in North Texas there in a little town called Herbert, Texas. And I had my outlines laid out before the bed there. And the way I do my preaching outlines, the title is in blue and the scriptures in red. And I was praying about what I have to do tonight. And the Lord said, is there victory in the new birth? Absolutely. Is there victory in the feeling in filling of the spirit? Certainly. Is there victory in the healed body? Yes. Now that's part of your prosperity is to live well and not be sick, divine health. That is really prosperous. I didn't know you could do that until I've lived it. And say he said, every believer has a voice and it is the voice of victory. Now I was on the radio and I would start out that way. And then I had a I had a little FM thing in my own studio and I had a couple of records there. And so when I did the theme song and I was going along, I said, you're not sick and you're not going to die. And I thought, wow, that is strong. And then later on, we got a written testimony. This woman was in the hospital. They had just called them camp. They had the doctors had just left her room and said, there's nothing we can do. You are going to die. She said, my arm just went over to the radio and turned it on. I heard you now someone else had it tuned in with that, obviously. And she said, I said, I'm not. So she sent down to the, to the little deal downstairs and ordered a Bible up. So she looked up the scripture references. And then she said, I went home. I'm perfectly healed. We paid off my husband's truck. And now the three of us have started a church. That's prosperity. So let me ask you about that healing aspect too, because I believe in the supernatural. I believe God so heals today. I do also believe that there are instances though where, you know, we pray and ask God for healing. I'll give you a prime example. The whole reason I became a believer was because I was struggling with anxiety and depression. And Jesus supernaturally encountered me when I was 17. And I prayed and said, Jesus, if you're real, take away my anxiety and depression. He took it away. I haven't had it since that day. And I've prayed that same prayer for close family members, friends, loved ones who struggle with it just as bad, if not sometimes even worse. And God doesn't seem to take their anxiety and depression. Well, he didn't, he didn't say, he, you were talking to him about you. You're talking about family members. Now their will is involved. Now, if you're going to intercede for them, that's a different thing. But in your intercession and supplication, second chapter of the book of Timothy, first of all, prayers of intercession, so forth, which is goodness out of God, our Savior, who gave himself as a ransom for all, just praying for him and going to do it. Now in some cases it might, if you just intercede long enough, the witness is stronger than the intercession because they know your testimony. But they're going to have to receive it on their own. And you do it with the book. So what would you say then, like, for example, going back to that example of Paul, right? You know, he has that thorn in his side that's dealing with him, you know, persistently. It seems like you can see what that was, what the thorn exactly was. No, what, what, if you go, it was the care and worry about all the churches, that was the thorn in his side. Now there are those that said he had sick eyes and all that, but he said, I've been delivered from all of that. Where did he, where does he say that part? I'm just curious. I'd have to look it up. You just have to go and look it up in your concordance. But he said, I have been delivered of all of these things. Now here's what you have to understand about him. Like in the book of Philippians, he used the word joy in one form or another, 18 times. While he was in the worst prison, you could possibly, this man is a hero of heroes. But he said, he didn't say, I am, he said, I know how to be a based. I know how to be a hungry. I know how to have plenty. I know how. Didn't say I am. He said, I know how. So you study his life and read everything. He's the same one when he wrote to the church in Rome about Abraham. He's the same one. Well, let's turn over the Romans for what shall we say then? Abraham, Abraham, our father, as pertaining to the flesh have found for if Abraham were justified by works, he hath wear of to glory, but not before God. What says the scripture, Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness or just right standing with God. Now to him that works in the reward, not reckoned of the grace, but of debt, but to him that works not, but believes on him, justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also described the blessedness of the man who whom God imputed with righteousness without works, saying, blessed are they that inquires or forgive his inequities are forgiven, whose sins are covered, blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Now let's come over here to the, well, the 13th verse for the promise. Now remember, every time you see the word promise, there's blood involved somewhere another for the promise that he should be heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void. The promise made of none effect, because the law works where there is. Now look at this. Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace to the end that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not that that only which is of the law, but that that also which is the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations before him or like him, whom believe God who quick and hath a dead and calleth those things that be not as though they were. I call my body well. I don't watch television at night. I still listen to brother Hagan even though he's in heaven. I have a cell phone with no, with no SIM card in it. I just, I saw I have him right there. That's the way Gloria and I got it was listening to it on tape. So I have it now. First words and last words. Well, I just used today for instance, with Gloria, goodnight my love. I love the Lord, my God, with all of my heart, all of my soul, all of my mind and all of my strength. I love my neighbor as myself fulfilling all the law and the prophets and John 13, 34 and 35. The master said, I give you a new commandment that you love one another as I have loved you and tonight father, my neighbor and I'll tell you who my neighbor is right now, Joe Biden. They announced that he has prostate cancer. This is not politics. This is life brother. And if they held that back and he dies of prostate cancer, somebody is really guilty. Well, I'm not the judge. The book is. So I pray in the spirit for his whole family to be delivered. Jesus said, send labors across their past with the message. And I pray that as it is written as it is written, tithing is absolutely essential for the prosperous life. Let's go back over there. The blessing of Abraham in the 28th chapter of the Iran, just so you know the way I do my Bible. And that one that I just took back, David Barton was doing television, me Monday, he said, where do you get a white highlighter? We were on the book of Hebrews. And at one time or another, I had just highlighted everything in there. So that's my favorite book by five Hebrews is great. Oh, yeah, it's great. I'm telling you. Do you think Paul wrote it? Absolutely. Yeah. He mentions Timothy and it I mean, come on. Let me paraphrase it in the book of Galatians. Let's go over there. We got to go over there. I mean, we're here. We got to go over there. You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim and life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me in Antioch at Econium and at Lystra, which persecutions I endured yet from them all the Lord rescued me. I pray over my food every day, according to the letter that the apostle Paul wrote to his son, Timothy, I received my food blessed and sanctified according to the word of God and prayer. And I pray for my partners every meal. I pray for the midterms every day. I pray for the protection. Now I want you to notice this in chapter one of verse 14, profited in the Jews religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous. So he was a zealot of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me to ask grace to reveal, now to get it, to reveal his son in me that I might preach him among the heathen immediately. I conferred not with flesh and blood. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them, which are apostles before me, but I went into Arabia and returned again. Then three years Mary at the tomb thought it was the gardener and he said, don't touch me. Well, what happened then that don't touch me. And this happened. He's the only one that said 500. No one else said that. When this happened, another scripture in the body, out of the body, I cannot tell God knows. So in Arabia, he went where Moses went and he sat there. He didn't need a veil. He's a born again, holy ghost, baptized tongue, talking Christian. And when Jesus appeared to him, he said, I've already shown him what he must suffer from my namesake. Why? To prove that this new covenant works, to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. He's the only man qualified. None of the apostles were qualified because this man sat at the feet of Gamelio. Gamelio's word is accepted rabbi of rabbis. This man was a rabbi of rabbi, but they hated him because of what he wrote. They did. They tried to stone him. They tried to chase him out. And then he got up and stoning him wouldn't stop him. Shortest salvation prayer in history. Who are you, Lord? I'm Jesus that you persecute. What you want me to do. And in that, he was like Abraham. Whatever he told him, he did it. Now, when it comes to my understanding of this idea of prospering, right? Okay. Let's go back over to the book of Deuteronomy now. We're back to Deuteronomy 28. Yes. We need to go back over there because we need to find out where the financial part of it comes. In Deuteronomy 26 from 12 through 15, or all of the, all of the tithes, I have listened to the voice of the Lord, my God, and have done according to all you've commanded me. Look down from your holy habitation from heaven and bless your people, Israel and the land which you've given us, that you've sworn unto our fathers, a land that flows with milk and honey. In the book of Exodus, he said, I'll have no poor in the Jubilee, the 50 years. In case you have poor, you send back everything they have. I won't have any poor people in my nation. Chapter 28, it will come to pass, but you're going to have to believe it. It will come to pass if you will harken diligently. Now, that's different from just reading once in a while. This is spending time searching the Scriptures. This spend time. Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thou will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. I was praying that and the Lord said, and I'd been, I'd been praying for a good while, studying, listening, but I just started praying. He said, you look up, give us this day our daily bread. He said, what is your daily bread? He said, your daily bread is going to be to the nations. Oh, really? I didn't know we were going to come to a place where we are now. Let me give you my own personal situation. We have a board of directors. They set my salary. I don't. They do, according to the IRS guidelines, and they don't let me be in a room when they do. And since the ministry has an airplane, if for some reason or other that I use that airplane before God, but for vacation or something for my family, there is an internal revenue thing for that. And I pay taxes on it. The reason this ministry uses an airplane as life is saving is because we started out, and I was praying about this. We were just getting started and we were there in Tulsa and I came in from school and I said, Gloria, I have a disturbance in my spirit. Now, the man that owned that house we were renting, he was a lawyer. Well, I want to stay four more years and go to seminary. And I had him write the Kenneth Copeland Evangelistic Association. I'd already had him do the papers. So the Arkansas River, I had just one house and I was in the riverbed there. I went down in there and prayed in the spirit, it was just about dark. And all I heard again was nations, nations, nations. So I started up out of there and then the Lord said, your wife is precious to me. I have given her to you. She is to you what temper is to steal. Well, I was in metal shop in high school and you had to temper it or you break it. But this nation's thing came up. But I pretty well forgot about it. So schools out. I'm ready to go. I'm what I'm going to do here in this summer. I don't know. I'm just, and I sat down there. I had my suit on. I had my Bible and I had my legal pad. And I said, okay, Lord, and down in my spirit, he said, I want you to go back to Fort Worth. Lord, now he said, I'll take care. You know what happened to you in your hometown. I don't want to go back to Fort Worth. The greatest part of your destiny is there. Phone rang. Glory said, Brother Nichols wants to talk to you. Well, he was pastor of Grace Temple Church. And so, Glory and I and John and Kelly were rebaptized in water there in that church. So he's in my pastor. When can you come to me for a meeting? I said, well, Brother Nichols, I'd like to say I need to check my schedule, but I don't have one. Now we had had a devastating car wreck in the, at Marshall, Texas, and in Halloween night before. And the only car I had was an old worn out Osmobile that had about 90,000 miles on it when we got in. That's the only car I had. I'm nursing this thing down. So, but of course, when I got there, I had another car to drive at least. I brought my folks, I'd stayed there with our folks. We walked in there and mother came in there and said, Gloria, come on. I said, Gloria, I said, Mama, you got any tapes? Yeah, look in there. They had a thing there. The previous owner had a home screen. They just set this thing out and set this tape recorder on it. You know, and thinking about that big. There's a white box on the first side. You can write your own ticket with God and the flip side, Paul's revelation. Kenneth, he, hey, that's the first time I've ever heard anything like that in my life. I said, Gloria, we have to have everything his man had. And that started that and the teaching that came from both of these men. Now I want you to notice this. This is very important the way this is worded. It will. It said, what versus that that you're in. Chapter 28, verse one, it will come to pass if you shall listen diligently to the voice of the Lord your God to absurd and do all his commandments, which I commanded this day, that the Lord God will set you high above all nations on the earth in God's mind. That's everybody in the nation. You can't have a nation without people. All these blessings shall come on you and overtake you. If you harken under the voice, if you listen to, you listen to me, bless shall you be in the city. Bless shall you be in the field. Let's stop right there. Let's talk about Job. He's a very wealthy God. Oh yeah. The only person that did what the, the, there wasn't, there wasn't, but one sin. He will curse you to your face. And God said, but you can't touch his life. His wife did it. Not Job and brought the devil down on the family. He did throughout this whole thing. There was a blessing wall around him. The hedge of protection. Yeah. It's the same blessing. He said, you've blessed him. I can't get in there to him. Blessing is more than just what you do when you sneeze. It is a power from God. You can't break it. You can't get through it. It's an invisible force. In many cases it, it is translated very happy, but it takes diligence. It takes a concerted, diligent study of this book. Yeah. Would the like, okay, so this message of prosperity and abundance and things like that, you know, I know, I know you go to a lot of prisons and do a lot of prison ministry. I think that's another thing that's hard for me to like wrap my mind around for guys like who are in prison, you know, I've been to a state prison in Georgia where most of those men are in there with life without parole. You know, how, how could, let me ask you, what does he need to prosper? He just needs Jesus. There you are. That's his prosperity message. And to be strong enough to witness while he's in there. I've done a lot of prison ministry with Mark Barber. It started really before that. And I won't go into all the details, but I was teaching in a prison and one of these men said, Copeland, we like to play baseball in here. But yeah, I don't blame you. I like baseball. These little old short bats. Terrible. I said, what did you have in mind? He said a 36 inch Joe Jackson and he said, it has to be a Louis Bones slugger. I don't want anything else. And the other guy said, yeah, these crummy little bats we've been getting. There was a prison. I said, I think you have to do it in faith. I said, get your bibles. Let's go to the book of Matthews, see what the master said. And so we agreed. The prison truck came in there and had a big box that wasn't on the, wasn't on the list. He said, I don't, I don't, I don't, I supposed to bring this here, but there's nothing labeled on the box. I don't know what's in there. One of them was a Louisville slugger, 36 inch Joe Jackson. To him, that's prosperity. Because he prayed about this thing. He had learned half. Now, one of them had 700 years. In prison. Yeah. Wow. He walked me to the gate. Now Lawrence Harvey was warden in the husband's huntsville unit at that time. And, and too, by the way, I baptized a serial killer named Stephen Moran in the Barrie County Jail of San Antonio. And he kidnapped a woman. He had killed 24 women. He kidnapped a woman, Margie Colt. She kept telling him she's the only one that loved him. And he told her, if you don't shut up, I'm going to kill you. No, you don't kill the only person that would love you. Well, can I put my tape in? Yeah. Well, it was a tape of me preaching. And he slammed on the brakes and said, who said that? And looked in the back seat. The boys said, Stephen, this is your last chance. She led him to the Lord right there. Well, I was on there as his spiritual advisor. Well, they only had to convict him of one and they did. He said, I don't want any reprieve. He said, I only have one five year old boy. I don't want him to know I even existed. Terrible, terrible life. He let me know that he wanted me to meet him in Golden, Colorado. I'm on his book there. He said, I never heard of any of this they're going on with. But he said, they're just clearing their books. I said, now Stephen, you have time to become an expert on prayer. Well, yeah, he said, I'll have time enough to do that. So I said, I'm going to figure this out. Now, listen, you promise me you will pray about anything you do from now on. I give you my word. So he went upstairs. He got up there and his cell door was a jar. And he told me he said, I looked, I could take my sheets and drop that out over there. And I'm gone. But I promised Brother Copeland I'd pray. And he said, I said, I got on my knees and I said, Father, in the name of Jesus, I fell asleep. And I slept all night long. He said, I realized it was a trap. They were going to kill me on the other side of that wall. Because when they came in there and found me awake and my cell door not shut, he said, they look kind of stupid. Now, fast forward, we were we were caged like this. There was a thing right up here and I'm talking to him like this. And I asked him, I said, everything all right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He said, now everything's fine. He said, I'm picking to go home. He said, I'm hardly waiting. Stephen, I'm going to tell you, do me a favor. The scripture says that grace is enough. Yeah. I said, let me know, will you? So since I was his spiritual advisor, I was as close as that wall right there, just a few feet away, a little railing here. I could see him. He looked down there at me and the lights were bright. And when that lethal injection started, it makes a bang. So you know, you're going to be gone here in a few seconds. And he looked down there at me and two thumbs up, and he's gone. Grace was more than I know. Serial killer. But I had to go to the book. When I baptized him in that, in that, I mean, they had their pistols like this, you know, they have a tub there, you know. I told him, I said, gentlemen, everything will be all right. When he came up out of that water, I mean, to tell you, if there was, if any man's face I have ever seen was a glow, it was his. Something had to happen first. Number one, he gave me his word. I took it. Number two, he did what I asked him to do. He became an expert on prayer, and he's leading other people to the Lord and praying for their families and for their lives and for the, now they're prospering in the jail. So you can see where prosperity has a whole, look at it like this. It's a pie. And there's one slice in here that's money. And it's money enough to take care of everything you need. It's money enough to be out of debt. I taught that at the minister's conference one year, and the pastor came back the next year and told me what happened. He said, I went home and he said, my wife and I prayed and the congregation prayed, and we're going to build this new sanctuary where I'm debt free. So he said, I went to the bank, I went in, and he said, I asked him if I could see so and so, and they said, pastor, he's working on your loan now. And he said, I went in there and oh, he grabbed me by the hand. He said, pastor, it's looking good. He said, well, I just want to tell you we decided to do it debt free. He said, he changed and he looked at me and I will not repeat what he called me. You know, you can't do this without us. He would have had that spirit in his life. It's because their money that he borrowed. There's this word kind up here, K-I-N-E. Do you see it? In what verse? In the fourth verse, the increase of your kind. That is the increase that's not kind, it's kind. Now they're foreign people. All the oxen, everything you need, because this is hell, shut up. Everything you need, come to me. The increase of your kind. Our kind here was aircraft because the ministry started with a little single engine Cessna. But even with that, some man asked me, why do you want an airplane to go fast? Why not? And besides, that is safer than driving down the highway. And I go to places for a meeting. Airlines don't even go there. And even this small four-place airplane, and I was flying it and getting into places and getting into, but I needed a twin-engine airplane because this is not an all-weather airplane. You understand why? Anyway, I needed two engines for safety and well, it's speed and everything else. So I just traded it in on a Cessna 310 twin-engine airplane. But that's my kind. That's in the blessing. Now. So you're relating like the kind in Deuteronomy 28 to today, your kind is an actual flock. This room is my kind. I see what you're saying. I need this. These mics are our kind. This is our kind today. We need money enough to pay for this. And money enough for you to want to have a debt on any of it. You don't go down to Sears and Roebuck and buy something like this on debt. This is an expensive piece of equipment. But your ministry doesn't need to have to go borrow money at the bank to buy these things. That is to prosper in your ministry and to do it without debt. So you just take it a day at a time, whatever's necessary, and put back absolutely tithes, glory and not tithes personally, the church tithes, the ministry tithes, we sew into other ministries and then by doing so over the years, the money that this ministry has saved by not owing is over $53 million. Anything the ministry purges, that goes up. That's prosperous. Now, I want it. I want, there's something I want to get to here. He will establish you a holy people unto himself. That's verse nine. All the people of the earth shall see that your call by my name, said the Lord. That is huge. He said to Solomon, build a place, Bill told David, build a place for my name. You won't do it, but your son will. A place for his name. EMI C is a place for his name. There's no debt on it. It's just the opposite of this really. The Lord shall open unto you his good treasure, the heaven. Do you have rain upon your land in his season to bless the work of your hand that you may lend to many nations and not borrow? Wow. You'll make you the head and not the tail. That's prosperity. I don't want to be the tail. I want to be the head, but it was the head a little bit at a time. Didn't happen overnight, of course not. You should not be beneath. If you're harking to listen to the commandments of them, now just turn this page. Now here we go. Do it around between eight 14. And thou shall not go aside from the words which shall command thee this day to the right hand or the left. I know the gods to serve them, but it shall come to pass. If you will not listen to the voice of the Lord, that God to observe and do all of his commandments and statutes, which I command you this day. Now he get this all these curses will come on you and overtake you. Cursed shall you be in the city. Cursed shall he be in the field. The Lord shall sin. Well, no, he doesn't send it. They're here. It really should be, he'll have to allow because you're not harkening. You're not listening to another word. Listen to what he said. Cursing, vexation, rebuke, and all you set your hand to do until you perish quickly because of the wickedness of thy doings. Whereby thou shalt forsake me. Consumption, inflammation, extreme burning, no rain. Look at this one 46. They shall be on you for a sign and a wonder and upon your seed forever, because you serve me not the Lord thy God with joyfulness and with gladness of heart for the abundance of all things. Well, the 61st verse then just covers it. Also ever sickness and ever plague, which is not written in the book of this law, will the Lord bring upon you till you be destroyed. But we've been redeemed from it. That doesn't belong to us. Spiritual death, sickness and disease, spiritual life, born again filled with the Holy Spirit, living in divine health and prosperity. And the prosperous part as it grows is like this. Gloria and I went before the Lord. We had been on 700 radio stations, which was somewhat of a record. But then the Lord called us on television. We'd gone to our prayer cabin in Arkansas and we stopped at Denny's for breakfast. And I looked at her and she kind of looked at me and I said, are you thinking what I'm thinking? She said, you first. I said, television. She said, yeah, how are we going to do it? I don't know. I don't have any idea. Well, it's going to take more money. So we began to write out our agreement, covenant with one another. We have never in a partner letter ever put any kind of a price in there except one time when we went on that television. Our whole ministry budget the year before was a little over $375,000. And I put in there for the price of a pair of tennis shoes, $12.95. We see inflation is taking care of that. We can do this together. That's one and only time. Our radio bill was $400,000 a month the next year. Well, take it carefully. All of this has the bits from between the blessing and the cursing. That does good to read all of this. And then read it in the amplified. And I mean, the diseases themselves are actually listed there. So with this this prosper message that we're bouncing around through scripture and reading about, you know, you mentioned that like, oh, for the man in Paris, prosperity looks different than maybe the man that grows up in Georgia and then the man that's in Africa and the person in China. Now, like, I think you and I can agree like true prosperity is Jesus Christ. You gain that salvation. I mean, that I love that you said that my mind has such the hardest time wrapping around, you know, what if what if God doesn't always give people what they want? What if God doesn't always do that? He, when did he say he wouldn't do that? Well, when I'm reading the scriptures, for example, like when I look at the Gospels, right, when we look at Jesus sending out the 72, for example, now he's getting them to learn to trust him. He said, don't bring a knapsack. Don't bring a tunic. Don't bring an extra pair of shoes. Yeah, they're working for him. He's right. He wasn't a poor man. He wouldn't have had a treasure and he was stealing out of that bag and Jesus was the only one that knows it. If Peter had known it, I think he'd he's tried to kill it. He had a garment that had no seams in it, the madmanic Adara clothed and in his right mind. Where'd they get the clothes in the Book of Mark? Went across there. This man was in the tombs night and day. He was a cutter naked, but then he wanted to go with him. He was clothed and in his right mind. Where did he get those clothes? And it didn't, he's called a man to preach. You don't want him looking like this. Are you talking about, are you talking about the man in Mark five with the Legion? Yeah, yeah, he was naked, cutting himself naked. But then you may see he was clothed and in his right mind. Well, you don't, you don't put a man in his right mind and turn him loose naked to go preaching the Decapolis. He was clothed. Jesus clothed him. He prospered him. He's a preacher and he told him to tell them what great things and what compassion God had had upon him. So what he preached, same thing. So the basis then of prosperity, you go with the Book of James. What good is it to say, be warmed without corresponding action to faith? Here it is. Be blessed, believe him naked. In their archaic, like a medical doctor, Dr. Bill Reed, powerful. He was operating on a baby and it died. And he just held his hand over that little baby and said, and the little baby came to life. It changed his life absolutely forever. So for the person that, let's say someone hears this, this prosperity message, right? They're listening, they're trying to apply, they're trying to read the scriptures, they're doing the things. Nothing's changing. Maybe they have a sickness, sickness isn't going. Their finances aren't changing. Is that like a problem on the person or is that what? Don't quit. Absolute necessity to tithe. Oh, that's old covenant. Hebrews is in the new, right? Hebrews is in the new. Hebrews chapter seven. There's an interesting shrivel in 1 John. We have known and believed the love that God has for us. You believe God loves you? Oh yes, Brother Copeland. I don't know. What are we redeemed from? Sin, I guess. Stranger from the Covenants of Promise in the Book of Ephesians. An alien from the Commonwealth of Israel. Without hope and without God in the world. Are you going to get healed? Oh, Brother Copeland, I sure hope so. The right kind of hope is necessary because faith is the substance of things hoped for. So what's my hope? Brother Copeland, you're going to get healed? Absolutely. How do you know? My hope is strong. Therefore, I have faith. I fully expect it. What if it doesn't happen? I missed it. Not God. I missed it. Here, out here. Or there's some little something I've got something against somebody that forgive those that have any on against you. 11 chapter of Book of Mark. Anyway, I want you to see this in the book of Hebrews in the seventh chapter. Without all contradiction, the less is blessed of the better. That's chesed. When you see the word loving kindness, that's chesed is the way you pronounce it. Chesed. There was a British missionary and gave it to me like this. He said, I was headed back to London and he said, that's somebody wanted me to go see this, this native guy. And so he said, I went and I, I told on chesed, if you see the big elephant and the little elephant and the big elephant raises out of here, you get about to get a taste of chesed. But the little elephant gets exactly what his mama gets equal. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. We thought it not robbery to call equal with God. We're joined heirs with Christ. And he said, come, come, come everybody. God wants us to touch fingers. That's the way they made covenant. They would slit their fingers like this. And they became blood brothers. And you walk up to the bank. And that's the way they, there's no way that there's going to be anything wrong here. Of course, we're brothers. Here, men that die receive tithes. But there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he's alive. So we take our tithe. Let's go to Mark chapter 10. This is where people get all out of shape. Verse 17, when he was gone forth in the way, there came one running and kneeled to him. So now get this picture. This is the rich young ruler. Yeah. Oh, that I'm glad you turned to this. I was, I was had the one in Luke book mark because I think this this, I mean, this passage is, is the one. It's so precious. And he asked him, good master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? Jesus said unto him, why do you call me good? There's none good but one and it's God. You know the commandments. Do not commit adultery. Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't bear false witness to fraud not honor your father and mother. He left four of them out. There's a reason why he answered and said, all of these I have observed from my youth. Jesus, beholding him, loved him and said unto him, one thing you lack, go and sell whatever you have, give to the poor and you'll inherit heaven. Take up the cross and come. Follow me. He offered him a apostleship and he couldn't take it because he's going to take care of his needs from now on. I don't care how much money he had. And he was sad at the saying and went away, grieve. We had great processions. Now, after he's gone, he answered the question, looked around about his disciples and said, how hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God? Not that they have them, the riches have them. He turned away from him. He didn't have to leave. He could have just said, well, that makes me mad enough to spit, but I ask you and I'm going to stay with you till I find out. He just left. He loved his money more than he loved God. He did. He really did. That's the danger. That is the danger. Anyway, listen to the rest of this. His disciples were astonished at his words. Well, they sure weren't, they sure weren't poorer or that I mean, they'd have shouted at that. How hard it is for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God is here for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure saying among themselves, who then can be saved? Jesus looking away. Now the word saved, sozo includes healing. It means soundness. It includes healing, prosperity, saved, saved from what? Poverty, saved from what? Saved. Jesus look upon themselves with men is impossible not with God. For God, all things are possible. So my question is, who am I truly with with all of my heart, all of my soul, all of my mind, all of my strength, all of my wealth, everything I have. It's his. Look at this. There's no man that has left house, brethren, sisters, father, mother, wife, children, lands for my sake and the gospels, but shall receive a hundredfold now in this time. How's this brethren, sisters, mothers, children, lands with persecutions and in the world to come eternal life? Well, certainly it's going to be with persecution. The one thing that devil fights is his financial ability to do whatever God tells you to do. He fights it. He writes dirty books about you, which I have experienced. The Lord said, don't read about yourself in any publication anymore, including social media. And there are some that, you know, they put in there all of this property everything on it, you know, worth any work close to what it says. But anything the devil can do to stop the money. I had brother Roberts tell me, he said, if the money is choked, check your love law. I think, yeah, I think you mentioned earlier, and then we'll take a break. You mentioned something earlier. You were like, that was the danger. You know, this man loved his money more than he loved God. You know, that's why he walks away. And I think someone said that it was actually part of us. I don't really know where in history they said that. Anyway, go ahead. You mentioned that the dangers that he loved his money more than he loved God. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's hard for me personally to wrap my mind around that prosperity message is because it has a lot to do with the finances. And you know, we talked about it's not necessarily the dollar amount in someone's bank account that makes money sinful or not. It's the love of money. You know, there are people that don't have money that love their money more than they love anything else, you know, but I think that's why it's hard for me personally to really wrap my mind around these these things that we're talking about. Because I've personally seen and I bet you have to see money destroy people. Oh, and it rocks their world. And so like, how can how can we, you know, how can how can we as as believers show people who don't know Jesus at all that that he is the prize, you know, because that can be attractive, you know, having the benefits of blessing. I mean, the reality is blessing as a blanket statement. As believers, we get to be blessed in any form or fashion. I had a Gloria and I were at a Target store one day. And this this car this tires just squealed. Brother Copeland, brother Copeland, brother Copeland, the Lord told me he'd be here. She had two small children in the back. I walked over there to the car. I said, What is it? She said, I'm a school teacher. They my home has become more valuable. And the bank, she said, I'm only behind two payments. And the bank won't won't renew my loan. What do I do? I said, What's your name and phone number? So we checked out her story and paid off her house. That would have really hurt my heart if I'd have said, Sister, I wish I could help you. But I was so much money. I just can't do that. We have done that time and time and time and time and time again. And there's a particular restaurant that's it's a national chain. What is the Applebee's restaurant? And there's a particular one in this area. And we haven't been there in some time, but we had an Applebee's ministry. An Applebee's ministry. It got out, you know, that we would help people like that. And we did. And there were some cars involved in it that we that we help people. And this one man was a former Marine and Gloria wrote a book, God's will for you. And in that book is God's will is prosperity. So he read it. I mean, he read it over and over and over again. And he came in there to me one day. And he said, Brother Copeland, would you lay your hands on me? He said, I really don't feel very good. Now he had a little daughter that was very, very shy. And I would do this to her and she'd come over there. And finally she got to where she'd come sit by me. He said, her school teacher called me in and said, you want to have to do something this girl here? Why? She says Kenneth Copeland is her personal friend. He said, well, he is now what? Oh, so he just bought a new truck. He died of cancer, broke his wife. He had custody of the child. So we put it together. We paid off the truck. We prayed for his home going service and started having his mother. Well, praise God. That's what it's all about. Today's sponsor for our episode is my company, Praise Energy Energy with a Higher Purpose. We've been developing this company for over a year so that people know that the energy drinks and the hydration that are being put out are coming from a gospel centered faith driven business where you know the heart behind the company, the people behind the company love Jesus and want to see everyone know him as well. There's so many brands out there online that push different agendas and doctrines and why support those businesses when you can support people who actually want to see the gospel go forth. Our energy drink has a hundred milligrams of caffeine that comes from green tea extract. And we use monk fruit, organic cane sugar and stevia to sweeten the drink to offer the cleanest sweetener possible. Furthermore, every energy drink, electrolyte package and all of our products are prayed over before it hits our website or even offered in stores. We even have a QR code feature where you can scan our drink and put in a prayer request and within 24 hours a physical person from our team will have prayed for your prayer. If you want to know when we go live and offer our products for availability, go to drinkpraise.com. Sign up today so you can be the first to know when we launch. Go to drinkpraise.com. Sign up today so you know when we launch energy with a higher purpose. We talked a little bit earlier about that Mark chapter 11 passage. That changed everything. And I really appreciate you fixating on this passage because I think when it comes to like... This was working all the time. I turned exactly to that every time. So I think for me personally, one of the hardest things for me when it comes to this prosperity message, when I look, I mentioned to you earlier about my coworker Mitch who was had little to no money, but he was obsessed with money. And I believe that he would always say, Bryce, I pray to God and I ask God for money and if God gives me money, I'll believe in him. And that obviously never happened. And so he looks at me and he goes, well, God's not real. And I said, well, Mitch, maybe God can't trust you with money. And that's why he's not given you with money. And so that's why for me, it's a little, I come cautious to this prosperous message because I'm like, well, you know, when we're faithful with little God can trust us so much with everything. Right. And I don't want someone to perceive it as, oh, I believe in this Jesus just to get the benefits of the kingdom. Like we, I want Jesus. Jesus is the prize and whatever he has in store for me, that's what I want. Everything has to be based on this book. A diligent study of this book, like in the book of Hebrews. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The classic amplified says the title deed to things we hope for that you can't see that has not been revealed to the physical senses. Well, I'll believe it when I see it. That was Thomas's problem. Jesus said, Thomas quit being faithless. Some had great faith, the centurion. Some had a little faith. Some had no faith. But the Lord just dealt with it. And, and so we have to deal with it. I have control where my household is concerned. I don't have control where yours is concerned. All I can do is witness to you based here. Do you think that's a common misconception about the prosperous message as they, they see you preach it, they see you reaping the benefits of it. And so they think, well, if I go to Brother Copeland, then my life's going to change because I go to him. Do you think that's a common misconception? Like it seems to me what you're saying is, if you want, it appears like what you're talking about is you, if you want to experience this prosperous message, you have to take it for yourself. Well, if they come to me, I'm just going to show them what I know. Now there's been times that people have come to me. And the Lord say, you do this. There's been time people came to me and the Lord said, you let them alone. I'm dealing with them over this. You just go to the book and show them. And so if I have the opportunity, I'm going to take it to witness. And as we were talking earlier, I baptized in the well, or a serial killer. Could God save a man like that? Well, certainly. And I won't go into all of that. But here's the thing. I have authority over my household, but I don't have authority over yours. If you come to me for help, we're going to sit down and we're going to pray and we're going to get this book out. And we're going to go and discuss the problems and see what the situation is. Now in the Bible, when it talks about how the one area to test God in is with your finances, do you believe that that scripture saying, when I test God with my money, I get money back? Is that what you believe that is saying? What do you believe about that passage? Tell it to me again. The Bible says that the one area we test God in is with our money. Now, is that over there in the book of Mylokot? I believe so. Yes, sir. Turn over there to it. And so when we hear that in scripture, do you believe that that is saying, if I'm testing God with my money, does that mean that as a believer they get money back? Or does that mean that they... I don't ever test God with my money. I don't even know what that means. I believe that this is what I believe that means, right? I'll give you an example. God called us to Los Angeles, California in 2022 and I'd never even stepped foot in Los Angeles, California, much less I know that. I don't know. That's the most expensive place in the country. And so when God called me there, I'm like, well, we got him 18. I can't even afford to live there. Don't know what that looks like. So I said, I'm going to act out an obedience. God, I'm going to move there because you called me there. That's what Abraham did. Every time that's what Abraham did. I think one of the appeals and one of my cautions about that prosperous message too is I think there are a lot of people that could say, oh, well, I'm going to test God in that area, right? You know, it may not make sense in the car to make that decision. I'm going to do it. There's a place in the scripture where it says that. But in testing him, you do it by faith. Now, does that mean that someone gets money back? Like when they test him in that? Let's turn over here to Philippians chapter four. The answer is right there. Now you remember this church was a convict church. Now here we're back at that passage. 411. No, let's back up before that. This is so important. Number first four. Rejoice in the Lord always. And again, I say rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful or worry. Don't care. Be careful for nothing, but in everything, but prayer and supplication with Thanksgiving. With Thanksgiving, what you say long enough will finally get down in your heart and begin to control your life. I had said over and over, I don't like exercise. I just hate it. I don't want food with it. I'm all suited up. I'm going to obey God and I got in there and I grabbed that thing and I said, I just hate this. No, oh God, forgive me. I love it. I got on the treadmill. He said, Kenneth, I sacrificed my body for yours. Now you're sacrificing yours for mine. That's what he was after all the time. It didn't have to do with just my body. It's to keep me going. Keep me moving. Finally, grab brethren. Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, it can be true, but not lovely. Whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are good report. If there be any virtue and if there be any praise, think on these things, those things which you have both learned and received and heard and seen in me do it. And the God of Pete Shalom, nothing missing, nothing broken shall be with you. Now Shalom is Hebrew for prosperity. Think about this. The Lord says, Now I want you to sow so much into that ministry. He asked me to do it so something is missing in my life. I go to Mark 10. He's going to replace it 10-fold, 100-fold, some 10, some 30 is 100, depends on my faith and what my level is. Don't ever let it be said ever that God has ever put any kind of a sickness or a disease on somebody to teach them something. Book of James, don't you dare do that. Now if something happens and he teaches you from it, that's different. He didn't do it. God doesn't cause suffering. I think God can allow things. Well, there's some things he has to. He has to allow things. That's where the good character comes from. Yeah, where the good character comes from produces endurance. So you pray and you don't listen and you have a quickening in your spirit, all to wait 30 minutes and you don't, you have a car wreck. Why'd you let that happen to me? Did you ever have a hunch? That's your spirit trying to get ahold of you. Man, I probably ought not go right now. You better listen to that. Here's what the Lord said to me. Don't ever underestimate a delay. He's always on time. But if he says, hold up here for a few seconds, you better hold up and let whatever problem get by that he already knew about instead of pushing your wife to get ready and get we got to go down. The reason I'm saying that, because I know some of the things that would this actually happen. And man, but the name of Roy Hicks was the overseer of the four square church. He actually did. He started interviews. Every when he interviewed said, yeah, if I'd have waited a little bit, that wouldn't happen. Or if I hadn't turned in that direction, that wouldn't have happened. Now that doesn't mean you'd be late work to late to work every morning. My dad said, if you're on time, you're 15 minutes late. You get there before everybody. That's the reason he never had a, he always had a job during the Great Depression. Never was without a job during the Great Depression. So let's continue to read here. Finally, brethren, whatsoever think now, those things which you have seen both and learned and received and heard and seen in me do and the God of peace will be with you. Now I want to say this to young preachers. How many of them can say that the integrity of any person? I don't care whether they're in the ministry or not, the integrity of the written word and the absolute integrity and understanding what a quality decision is and then write it down based on his word. And if you'll write your word down based on his word, he'll honor your word as you honor his. A quality decision is one based on this book about which there is no more argument and from which there is no more to treat and retreat. And I step across that line of faith and this is where we're going. But anyway, I need to get over here and we'll answer the question that was brought up in the first place. While you're flipping, I'm thinking of Matthew 6 right now when Jesus talks about, hey, kind of hinting at what a little bit of Paul's writing. Don't be anxious about anything. Oh yeah, that's the same thing. God clothes the lilies of the field and their beauty and they don't try and he feeds the birds of the air with them out trying. How much more will he provide for you? And that gives me peace as a believer with stepping out and big decisions. And first Peter chapter five, it helps when making big decisions. Cash the holy you care over on him. Absolutely. And then pray a lot. Absolutely. A lot. I think my biggest, the thing that's hard for me to understand or the cautious thing again, like with that, that prosperous message is I think to people because we're human beings and we have that human nature, the thing that's more attractive to people about this prosperity, health and wealth message is those things rather than Jesus. And so, you know, when I when I think back at that time, I moved to LA, like I didn't step out because I wanted some benefits and blessings. I stepped out because I wanted Jesus himself. And that's what he told you. And I'm trusting him, right? Trusting that that his way is better. That's it. But then when would a farmer go out in the field and produce a crop and then not take any of it because you because he didn't want to go against God? Let me tell you, my spiritual father, old Robert, they were itinerant preachers. I mean, they didn't have any place to live. And he said they were in a he was pastor of the church in Enid, Oklahoma. This was before the really healing miracle ministry started. And he wrote a book called Seed, Time and Harvest. But anyway, they she said, Oral, you get a house for me. I'm taking these kids. He said, you wouldn't do that. She said, you just try me. Well, then a Wednesday night service, he had been paid his $50. And he said, I don't know what came over me. I just said, anybody got a hat? And he said, I started it. I put my $50 in that hat. He said, I got home and she said, Oral, you didn't do that. He says, you think it is cold in January? He said, but he said, I got a knock on the on the deacons door at three o'clock in the morning. And I got up and answered it. He said, it was the wealthiest farmer in the county. He said, Oral, I'm ashamed of myself that I didn't put anything in that that offering. He said, I've been playing the stock market. I'm about to lose my farm. But I know I'm a farmer. And to get a crop, I'm going to have to sow a seed. He said, I had this in a can and I went home and I dug it up. And there's $400 bills. Brother Robert said, we had never seen a $100 bill. He said, I just went in there and I just fanned that out. This is our harvest on that 50. Well, that's the fourth chapter of the Book of Mark. The sower sows the seed. And it never did talk anything about the sower. It always talked about the soil upon which it fell. So right here, right here is where it is. In that chapter of Mark and Mark chapter four, those seeds that that he, because Jesus explains that parable, he wasn't necessarily talking about money. He was talking about like the gospel going forward. Sure. But how does it go for it? Goes by people delivering the good news. That's right. But they don't have, they can't do it for nothing. That's the reason he said some 30, some 16, some 100 fold. But he shows why some had entered into their heart. They let it fail. The thorns choked them out. That persecution arises for the words sake. But here it is. Verse 15, you Philippians know also that in the beginning of the gospel, I departed from Macedonia. No church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but you only for even in Thessalonica, you sent once again to my necessity, not because I desire a gift, but our desire fruit that may abound to your account. I have all and abound. I am full having received of Epaphroditus, the things which were sent from you, an odor of sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God. My God shall supply all your need according to his riches and glory by Christ Jesus. Now, let's go back over here. God provides for our needs. And that's what you, and that's what you read here at the, at that end of that, that Philippians for God, God providing for our needs. And I think even the, for me, when I hear that prosperous message, and I think a lot of people that, that, that are, are listening to it, the attraction is they think, Oh, I'm going to get the things that I want. You know, what about the 23rd John? For the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. We shouldn't want. We lack nothing with Jesus. That's right. My wants, it depends on what I want and why. The apostle said, he gives us richly all things to enjoy. Well, I enjoy motorcycles, but I don't spend all my time messing with those things. I spend thousands of hours doing this, other than messing around with an airplane, although, although motorcycles. But I enjoy them. That's a genuine question I had. You know, that's something I, like I struggle with is understanding, like, I'm pretty, I'm an extreme person, me personally, like I'm all in on something when I love it. And so welcome to the club. What is the, what is the fine balance? You know what I mean? What's the balance of, of not being excessive? Like where do you draw the line personally? Where do you find, Hey, this is something I enjoy versus this is something that may be sitting on the throne of my heart. Let's take a pastor, for instance, the whole thing you, you keep, we, you keep humble, we'll keep him broke. I'd like to know where that is in the gospel. It isn't in there. You don't muzzle the oxen that treads out the corn and you, and you, you study these covenants and why they're there and what they say. I've seen this happen. I'm sad to say, you don't pay the pastor so much money. It hurts the church and you don't keep him down enough that it hurts him and his family. So you set guidelines from this and you don't have a deacon possessed church. You have a God ordained church and you have a board of directors, not a board of trustees. Well, you could call them that. I get what you mean when you say that. Yeah, board of directors. And on our compensation, they are men that have no way of receiving anything from us financially. Now everyone else in there, they have something to say about it, but these men that are on that compensation committee, then they will meet. They take all of the finances of the ministry. They take everything in account, all of it and have since day one. They take everything that has to do with anything in the account of the ministry. That's first what I call the rolling stock. We didn't build the out here, but the Roberts built a prayer tower. We built a chapel first building on the proper 1500 acres land on an old abandoned airport. We didn't put this airport back into operation for years and years before we ever touched it. That's not what the money went. We were keeping our airplanes somewhere else. That's fine. We get in the car and drive, but you have these men where you sit down and you discuss it. You take the finances of the ministry. You take all of this put together. What is this part doing? What is this department doing? We had a worldwide communion service one time. A man by the name Thomas Clyde McGee. And every time you use your satellite in your car, you say, thank God for Tommy Boy. Born again, Holy Ghost baptized believer with a slide rule. Put that first satellite out there 24,000 miles and made it in orbit to this year. Did you ever hear of the Blackwood Brothers Quartet? If they were doing a concert, I mean Christians would come from all of them to see them. His wife was a Blackwood. And they called him Birds. And the man by the name of Halberson would get down in front of Clyde and he'd say, Birds, birds, come out birds. Clyde, you haven't get, yeah, I know what I mean, birds. And he said, Kenneth, I'd get hung up and I'd go home and I'd say, baby, let's pray. And the Lord would give him the answer. He put the first satellite out there. So I called him. I said, Clyde, the Lord has directed us to have a worldwide communion service. And can you do that? Yeah. I said, how? He said, I don't know, but you know Philippians 4. You know the little plastic cups we do communion with today? Yeah. Whenever time you think you see, thank you, Brother Clyde. Wrigley did that for us in the Fort Worth Convention Center. We had 15,000 people in there. And they did that so that we didn't have to use glass ones. It resulted in a six million dollar deficit. I waited till the middle of the night. I got a board meeting the next day. Best meeting we've ever had. Best year we've ever had. TV, 24,000 or 6 million in debt. And I said, he said, the TV department is the one you carried. You didn't roll the carol out over on me. Glory, you get down here now. Well, you could think, I mean, you got to have what you got the bill and then that's six million. It was in record time. And for the first time in history, we paid our TV bill with one check. And we've never been behind anymore. I'm not carrying that anymore. But we had worldwide communion. It was just a magnificent thing. So, but all of it is based right here. I appreciate you opening it up with me and going through and listen to this. Now, here it all is. Let me ask you something. The fruit in the garden. Correct. What do you think it was? Well, they say it was the knowledge of good and evil. I mean, what was the fruit? Like what actual fruit do I think it was? Why people always describe it as an apple. That's the basic. What did they dress with? Leaves. It was the fig tree. And oh, I'm telling you, he upset. I mean, he upset everybody. They're on that coat. They went their way, found the coat tied. And certain of them stood there. What are you going to do with it? Like you said. And with many garments in the way and others cut off brows and they went crying, Hosanna, blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord. Blessed is the kingdom of our Father David. Come within the name of the Lord, Hosanna. Oh, you tell me, listen, he really caused a lot of trouble for himself up there then. And I like to think that like this too. They weren't worshiping the, the coat. He was the carrier. I'm the cold. And he's riding my back. Seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came if happily he might find anything there on the fig tree and the leaves are supposed to be there at the same time. Now, nothing but leaves for the time of figs was not yet. Well, the leaves were there in too early. And he answered and said to it, no man eat fruit of you hereafter forever. And his disciples heard it. Now he had gone into the temple the night before and came out and waited until the day to do anything. He went back to Bethany and he did all the, is it not written, my house should be called a nation of house of prayer. You've made it a den of thieves. So now when he cursed that fig tree, he didn't look back. He just headed Jerusalem. He didn't pay attention to Peter calling. Remember said master or Rabbi, behold the fig tree. This fig tree paid the price for that one in the garden. Praise God. Whether he did or not, I like it. It looks good to me. Which you cursed as withered away. I mean, this thing just was nothing, but the fig tree provided the opportunity. Have faith in God. The references have the faith of God. For barely I say unto you, this is a whosoever shall say unto this mountain, be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he says shall come to pass. He shall have whatsoever he says. And he did it. Therefore I say unto you, what things so ever you desire, when you pray, believe that you receive them. And when you stand praying, forgive if you have ought against any, that your father also in heaven forgive you, your trespasses. If you don't forgive, neither will your father forgive in heaven forgive you. And that's it. We stop, pray and listen. And that's what built this ministry. This and the other verses around it. Glowy and I, our family, John, Terry, George, Kelly, both sides of our family honored our fathers and mothers all the days of our lives. And Jeremy is pastoring a church up in Green River Falls, Colorado. When he was three years old, he, I wore a vest and pocket wise. He gave me a vest, patchy white, I peached. He's been preaching all his life. This then is the bottom line. A book of covenants. It's the Holy Bible. And this is just as much God as God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Ghost. Do you care if I pray for us really quick as we close? Please do. Jesus, thank you so much for today, God. Thank you for allowing Brother Kenneth to spend time with me and us have a conversation about his upbringing, his life, Jesus, and this prosperity message, what it looks like navigating it, the hard conversations. God, thank you for this day. Thank you for breath and sour lungs. Lord, would your face continue to shine upon us? We love you, Jesus. It's in your name. We pray. Amen.