The Private Equity Veterinary Scam Making You Poorer and Killing Your Pets

Joe, thank you for doing this. I don't think I've ever, probably have, I don't remember. I don't think I've ever interviewed an advertiser. And so I just want to be clear about why I'm doing this interview. So I called you several months ago to ask you if you want an advertiser on our show, because you have a pet related company. I love dogs. I've got a dog right there. And we had this conversation that was like so unbelievably interesting. So interesting that I haven't stopped thinking about it. So that's, I just want to be fully transparent about why I asked you to come. Thank you for doing it. So here's, here's my real question. Veterinary care. Anyone who owns a dog or cat knows a lot about it. There's no backstop. There's no health insurance, whatever. And you'll pay anything because it's a member of your family. And it's getting really, really expensive. So can you just give us the overview? Why is it so expensive to say bring your dog in for his shots? Like how does this system work? Yep. Just to put a pin in that veterinary care has grown to x the rate of inflation. So we talk about inflation. The cost of yeah. So the inflation is already high. Oh yeah. Veterinary inflation is double. It's like two x. That's how crazy it is. So something that was $50 is literally $100 a year later. Why? There's a number of factors. One, there's been a lot of private equity consolidation in this space. I could have guessed that. Follow the money. So that just means less supply and the demand's only growing. That's one big factor. The other factor is because it's a cash pay industry, there's really no insurance. Veterinarians and you'll read this in trade magazines, they build their business on production, which is basically selling you more stuff. So a third of their revenue is dependent on you getting a blood exam, getting x-ray, et cetera. And I think to be clear, the rank and file veterinarians are doing this only because they love pets. I think what's happening is it's the few business owners and ultimately, like I said, private equity that are simply raising prices for something that you're going to pay for no matter what. Yes. And it's scaring people. So at Dutch, my company, 50% of our customers say they haven't been to a vet in three years or more. Oh, I bet that's right. People are scared that the moment they enter a vet's office, they have a $500 bill or more. Literally. So let's just back up and go through these one by one. So the first is private equity. What? So private equity buys the model in general, buys small businesses, independent businesses, links them together for efficiencies, for cost savings. This is the idea. This is what So how many, do you have any sense of how many vets are owned by private equity now? I think it's like almost, it's like a third to a half probably. Wow. Okay. So they've been scooping them up. Oh, massively. In fact, there's like two major companies that are doing it that there was a lawsuit that they're creating monopoly that was going around. So they'll go to owners of... Of Brook and Moore, Mom and Pops. Yeah, Mom and Pops and they're doing this with Dentist as well and HVAC and basically every small business in America and they'll buy it, just a whole bunch of them. Exactly. And then become like regional. Yep. And then they'll just raise the prices. Does the care get better? No, the care gets worse because you're no longer bringing the... They're doing nothing. I don't want to say nothing, but there's really no modernization of equipment or faster care. It's the same thing. They just literally raise the price. It sucks. It's like super unfair. No, well, I mean, I'm willing to believe there are examples of private equity doing what it says it does, which is to come in and make the business better, better for its customers, better for its owners, better for its employees. I've never seen that ever in any sector, but I believe there must be some time where that happened. My old veterinarian, I switched to... And I asked for my... Which is owned by private equity and I asked for my medical records. It was 50 pages of PDF with scribble notes. I mean, there's no way that there's anything you could ever find what's there. So I don't believe... I've not seen any sort of better care for pets as a result at all. But greater returns for the investors and private... Yep, totally. Okay. So can you be specific about how they raise the prices? You suggested there's an incentive for veterinary offices to hike the price of annual exams and shots? Annual exams, but they'll sell you more stuff too. So they'll say, you know what? Your dog needs teeth cleaning and so we need to put him under anesthesia and that's going to be like a $5,000 bill for teeth cleaning, which... $5,000? Yes. I've had a lot of dogs, dozens and dozens of dogs. I've got five at my house right now and I don't think I've ever had a dog's teeth cleaned. Yeah, exactly. And my dogs live a long time. I'm like 14. Exactly. And the thing is you're there and you feel horrible because you only want to do what's best for your pet, but what happens is they have a list of all the services they want to sell to you and that's going to be one of them. And you feel horrible that you even have to think about the decision. Of course. But it's like that's a lot of money. I mean, most people don't have $5,000 lying around the house. Putting your dog under anesthesia is not a small thing. I mean, dogs die. People die under anesthesia. You're suspending life in a living thing. Totally. Yeah. So I think what happens is it's the list of services that they'll try to sell you and make you feel horrible that you don't care about your dog if you don't buy from this menu. There's so much emotional leverage. People are so intense about their animals. Yes. Not in my house. We have a critical distance. No, you do anything. You sell your car. I mean, I would. And so they have a lot of power when they're upselling. Yes, totally. It seems like the incentives would produce like actually bad outcomes where your dog or cat is getting treatments they don't need and that might be counterproductive. Well, I think what happens is people just stop going out of that at all. I mean, that's what we've seen is that there's just a whole, there's tens of millions of dogs that never go to the veterinarian. At Dutch, 50% don't go to the vet, haven't been to the vet in years. And it's because they don't want to feel bad for not buying extra services for their dog. That's amazing. What about all the shot? There are a lot of shots and they're very expensive. Definitely. There's vaccines, but even vaccines like you should, I mean, as we have at Dutch, try to kind of, so telemedicine can do vaccines, but there's definitely lower cost clinics that will do vaccines for $50, whereas in person it'll cost you $150 to $200 for the same thing. For a shot? Yes. Why would it cost $200 for a shot? Well, they'll say, well, I have to pay for rent and I have to pay for stat. I mean, they'll say there's like all this upkeep that the shot includes, but it's baloney. That goes back to private equity raising prices and knowing that there's some people who will still pay for it. So the profile of the vets that I've dealt with in the past 20 years, it really, really changed. It's a female industry now, which I think is good, just to be honest. I feel like there are really a lot of dog lovers. Not all you get hard cases among vets, but most vets I know just really love animals. Yes. Christmas is here. That means you're eating a lot. We are. 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And actually to this point that it's female, telemedicine allows them to have a work from home flexible schedule, which they love. Yeah. The main industry association, the AVMA, has basically made these vets feel that if they do telemedicine, the FBI will show up at their house. What? It has scared them to death from doing telemedicine. What? To death. And it's because it's, again, it's comprised of these self-serving financially interested individuals who run the organization, but they have completely scared veterinarians from doing telemedicine whatsoever. Why would the FBI show up at a vet's house? What they'll say, and again, I think this is why I want your listeners to know this, it's just so insane. They will say that the federal law requires you to have a physical exam no matter what. Like no matter if it's an opinion, it's a rash, it's a quick question, they'll say that the FDA website requires a physical exam, which it doesn't. But in every conference, in every newsletter, they'll say, oh, well, we asked the FDA and they said that you need a physical exam. So if you violate this, you might go to jail. That's what they'll say at every conference for years now. And they'll vilify me and Dutch and they'll say this guy is gonna hurt your dog. If there's telemedicine, millions of dogs will die is the headline. I'm starting to laugh. I mean, that's like obviously not true. Speaking of emotional blackmail. Yeah. So one of the main so by this book or we'll shoot this dog. I mean, it really yeah, millions of dogs will die. Did we really say that? Yeah, well, again, so this is what they'll say at a conference. What I've been doing now is I've been working with the ASPCA and a huge coalition of shelter organizations because they're the ones get the brunt of it. Because now millions of dogs actually also get surrendered because their owners can't care for them. Because they can't afford them because they can't afford it. They care. Yes. Come on. I'm telling you, people abandon their dog. Yes. Oh, man. I know it gives me chills. Yeah. Fucking sucks. Yeah. So the only way this can change is at the state level. And we've been working so in Florida, it took us four legislative sessions to allow telemedicine. And all it does is all the law will say is that the veterinarian can use their judgment to make a decision. But may I just ask you a foundational question? Why is the state involved in what kind of medical care you give your dog? Just because healthcare is regulated at the state level. And this is veterinary care. And that, I mean, and then. But you have dominion over your dog. I mean, right? It's so weird that they feel like some state legislator feels like he has more power over your dog who sleeps in your base, your dog than you do. Like, what is that? That's the system we live in. But actually, I will tell you this. Most legislators, once we tell them that this is a law that you need to help us with, there, most of them are completely on board. They don't, they're like, we have human healthcare. And this is, like a lot of them will say, I didn't even know this was an issue. Like you said, I didn't even know this was an issue. This is dumb. So where it doesn't work is when the AVMA or a lot of these state lobby groups who have hundreds of millions of dollars in annual budgets, if they've lined a politician's pocket, then that's where we will have trouble in those states. Taking money from the veterinary lobby. Yeah. There are a lot of dark lobbies. We only pay attention to a couple of them, but there are so many. Yeah. So can you just quickly tell me how that works? So the AVMA is the American Veterinary Medicine Association. Yeah, Medical Association. Medical Association. And why do they have an interest in preventing telehealth for animals? There's one reason that they'll say, and then there's one reason that they'll say behind closed doors. So what they'll say in public is that they'll say telemedicine is going to harm dogs, lead to millions of dogs dying. But what they'll say at the hearing behind closed doors, it's purely financial. They think that it's an either or choice that if you have telemedicine, people will no longer go to the vet and brick and mortar business is going to die. That's not true. So they're just preserving the monopoly. Yeah, they're preserving the monopoly. It's just like always. Most regulation exists to preserve existing monopolies. Yes, exactly. That's true in tech. It's true in manufacturing. It's true in the nicotine business. It's true in veterinary care. Wow. I should have known that. Oh, millions of dogs will die. Like who has died? No one. Also, if people aren't even bringing their dogs to the vet because it's too expensive, how is that good? Exactly. Exactly. Dogs are getting zero care. And you will have these people say that they will prefer that. Then they'll prefer the status quo. The Industry Association will say they'll prefer the status quo than allow telemedicine. And by the way, it's not an either or choice. It's not like, oh, I have a video call and now I no longer get vaccines at the vet. Of course. Again, human healthcare, we still go to our brick and mortar annual checkup, whatever. And then if we have an issue at night, we don't have to go to emergency. If you've got porcupine quills in your dog's throat or cuts his leg on barbed wire, you have to go to a surgeon. That's right. But if he has a rash and you just want to know, what is this? Why do you have to go to urgent care when you can just show, again, the dogs in the comfort of their home and you use your phone and show a video of their paw? Right. Like, why do you have to drag that animal? Well, and that's right. And for example, we get porcupine quills on our dogs all the time a lot. And I wish I could say my dogs are smart enough not to try and eat porcupines, but they're not. And every year I have to take the quills out, which is, it takes like four hours. But I do it myself because, well, because I know how, but also because my dogs don't like to go to the vet at all. And it smells like death and they can smell it. Yeah, mind you too. Dogs are euthanized there. They know that. And so we do everything we can to prevent physical visits because the dogs are panicked. And I think most people with dogs know this. Yes. And I think cats feel the same way. Cats are even worse. Yes. Because the corolla cat. Difficult. Difficult. So anything as someone, if you love animals, you want to, you want care for them, of course, but you want to keep them out of the physical space if you can. Yep. They're in the comfort of their home. Exactly. One of the things we see a lot is behavior and anxiety cases. And that's even more so why they should be treated from home because the dog is in their natural environment. Exactly. You're only making their situation worse by forcing them to this place they don't like. And then a lot of the behavior modification that happens, telemedicine is perfect for that because you can have these regular conversations and for a fraction of the price. Just to give you context, by the way, so Dutch, it's less than $100 for a year of care. If you went every month, you'd pay like over $1,000 to treat your dog. And oftentimes when you have anxiety, you kind of need to have those regular check-ins. And we had a story recently of this guy who had an aggressive dog. He's been on Dutch for two years and the dog went from crazy aggressive to now he has two buddies. Like his life has changed. Yes. And there's no way in the world this owner could have had the money or the time if Dutch wasn't around to change this dog's life. Amazing. Yeah. 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Spreaker, because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it. So how does it work exactly? I don't understand the terms. So it's $100. Tell me how it works with the alternative. So with Dutch, you go to Dutch.com, you sign up, it's a membership service. It's $100 for a year of care. So for a year, you can call a vet for up to five pets. And we have vets available same day. So most of the appointments, by the way, are happening at night. Even if you have a vet, the vet's closed. And so you have a video call. Most calls happen on people's phones. You talk to a local vet in your state, and they'll, you're talking to a professional, and so they'll die. You're talking to a veterinarian. Yeah, you'll always talk to a veterinarian, a human being. And 90% of the time, and we've been doing this now for five years, 90% of the time they're able to address the issue over video. Amazing. And so does that include vaccines or what does that include? It includes the cost. So vaccines you have to do in person and we'll recommend a local clinic if that's what you need. But if you need medication, we have pharmacy partners who can ship that to you. You can also go to a pharmacy of your choice. You don't care. But it includes kind of any of the follow-up messages, chats with the vet. So you don't feel like you're nickel and dimed if I have another question or if I have to follow up a week later. The other thing that's cool about digital first is that everything is documented. So we know automatically when we should follow up for each condition. Or we know that a veterinarian needs to respond. Like we have goals, a veterinarian needs to respond within a matter of hours back to the patient if there's a message during the business day. So we can also like really monitor our quality metrics to make sure that customers are having a good experience. Is this nationwide? It's nationwide, but there are about 20 states that don't allow telemedicine. For animals? For animals, yeah. Really? Yep. Because of lobbying by brick and mortar. Exactly. So that's why I- Any big states? Any of the big states. Some of the biggest ones like Texas, which is crazy because California allows it, but Texas does not. And we actually had a huge bill this year that literally got killed by the AVMA. And it's all because of money. That's wild. Yep. So you are not allowed to do- So is there like an underground telehealth? Like why don't you just ignore the law and do it anyway? Sorry, I should say that. Kind of. Well, so there's actually in Texas, there's a court case that is now at the Supreme Court where the veterinarian said, well, it's freedom of speech. Yeah. I'm just like telling people like how their pets, you know, this is my freedom of speech. So the Fifth Circuit, which is Texas, Louisiana, Missouri, has ruled in his favor, but the attorney general has filed this as an appeal at the Supreme Court currently. Seriously? Yep. What's his name? Greg. Forget his name. That's so interesting. He's running for Senate. So right now, it is illegal for anyone in Texas to call a vet on the phone and just get healthcare on the phone. Yep. According to them, now there's always, so there's two paths in Texas. There's any state allows, has an emergency provision if it's a life or death situation. And then in Texas, again, there's this Fifth Circuit decision that's currently, so there's like, there's sort of this competing situation in Texas where on the one hand, the Fifth Circuit says telemedicine is allowed, but the state regulations still say that it's not allowed. I'm pretty sure I could just call up and get like very serious drugs prescribed through telehealth as an adult. Like very, very fully addictive benzodiazepines, for example, you can die from going off them. I mean, this is like way more, way more addictive than heroin. You can't die going off heroin. You can die going off Xanax. So it's all about the money. But that's totally fine to get that from telehealth. Or amphetamines, no problem. It's like Tijuana, you know, you get whatever you want now, but your dog can't get treatment. Yeah. That's not, it's, it's definitely unfair. Well, it's deranged. Is that changing? Are you making progress? We're making good progress. So we've changed the laws in Florida, Arizona, Ohio, in a number of states. And this upcoming legislative session, we're lobbying in 12 different states. But definitely there's a lot of states, I'm sure your listeners live in a lot of those states. And one of the things we did as we launched this website called savepuppies.com. And if you go to savepuppies.com. Well, I love your marketing. I mean, if they're saying millions of dogs will die, you should, you know, you're fighting back with savepuppies.com. That wasn't taken. I know, right? Yeah, it wasn't taken. And so, you know, you can go there and send a letter to your local legislator. That's the only way that things will change is at the grassroots level, because we don't have the crazy budget that these trade groups have. Can I ask you, what is the AVMA think of private equity scooping up all the independent businesses? They're associated, I think they're associated with it. They've got no problem with that. I don't think so. Price is going up, care declining. They're totally fine with that. But they're against options. So, I think, again, there's two things, what they'll say publicly versus what happens behind closed doors. And I've read, I mean, it's like we live in two different worlds, because what they'll say is, like for example, one reason prices are going up is there's also massive vet shortages, because the veterinary profession has one of the biggest dropout rates of anyone. And they'll say, and this is just, this is just factually true if you follow BLS, about real labor statistics, but they'll say there's no shortage. Or you'll say, you know, prices are going up and there's like data that shows that they'll say, no, prices are not going up. So, a lot of times when you talk to them, the surveys they put out make are completely nonsensical. Right. And there's this bottleneck in veterinary school. Totally. So, that's another thing. The AVMA, it's really weird in this industry. And I think I just, again, I'm here because like you shine a light on things. And I think a lot of people... Well, I care about this topic because I think the relationship between people and animals is just so essential. I know. It sucks what they're doing. So, the AVMA controls accreditation for veterinary colleges. Okay. Like this happens in no other, like law schools don't have a trade association. Yeah. Decide like who gets to have a law school. Yeah. In this industry, the AVMA controls what is deemed a vet school and they have choke hold that completely. So, private equity decides whether you get to be a veteran. I mean, in effect, if private equity is the single biggest player in this industry, that's bonkers. Why? I mean, it goes back to money. It goes back to when you have less supply, you can charge more and because people are willing to pay more for it. So, they have an incentive to reduce the number of new veterinarians coming out of school every year. It's like I hate to draw that line, but I think that's what's happened. Well, if it's about money, then it's supply and demand because that's what the market is. Yeah. And so, the fewer vets you have, the higher the prices. Yeah. It like makes... I've, you know, and again, I think I'm a curious person and I try to understand like, could it be something else? Is there another reason? Like, why would this... If you have high attrition, you have prices going up, you would think that the way to solve that is to have more veterinarians. Yes, of course. And that's just not what they're doing. They've like literally, at this point, no several vet schools that have just stopped developments, you know, gave up because the AVMA basically told them that they're not going to get a license. That's crazy. I'm not sure. Because there are very, relatively few colleges that turn out veterinarians. Oh, there's totally few. Like, just think, I can tell you the statistic. There's about one veterinarian for every 3,000 pets in America. For context, the ratio in human healthcare is 1 to 20. No way. The disparity is so huge. And the amount of vet schools is so little. Like, we can have dozens of vet schools pop up, and it would still maybe not be enough in the next decade. And like I said, this trade organization is refusing to launch any new schools. Well, I mean, that's a cartel. That's cartel behavior. It's very much cartel behavior. And what's crazy is I feel like then this gas lighting happens where I'm painted as the bad guy. And they'll say this guy, Joe or Dutch, you know, he's just self-interested. He just wants, you know, he's the one that wants your money. And I'm like, how is that possible when I'm like reducing the cost? It doesn't make sense. Well, wasn't it long ago that many Americans thought they were inherently safe from the kinds of disasters you hear about all the time in third world countries? A total power loss, for example, people freezing to death in their own homes. That could never happen here. Obviously, it's America. People are recalculating, unfortunately, because they have no choice. The last few years have taught us that. Remember when the power grid in Texas failed in the dead of winter? Yeah, it happened. And it could happen again. So the government is not actually as reliable as you hoped they would be. And the truth is, the future is unforeseeable and things do seem to be getting a little squirrely. So if the grid does go down, you need power you can trust. Last country supplies newest product is designed for exactly that. The grid doctor is a 3,300 watt battery backup system that will power full size appliances, medical devices and tools with clean, reliable power. It's even EMP protected. That means it's shielded from lightning, solar flares, or an actual electromagnetic pulse event. There's no gasoline, no noise, no emissions. You just plug it in, charge it from the wall from your vehicle or from the included 200 watt solar panel and keep going day after day, taking care of yourself and the people you love is solely up to you. And the amazing thing is, with these new batteries, we use one at home, by the way, is they're super easy to use. There's no inverter you need to figure out on the front of it or anything like that. There's like three buttons. It's very easy and totally reliable. Highly recommended. We literally use one, as I said. Visit lastcountrysupply.com to shop the grid doctor for power you can trust this winter. Lastcountrysupply.com. How did you get into this? Couple reasons. So prior to Dutch, I was one of the co-founders of HIMS and HERS. And so I helped start that telemedicine journey. And I would say if we back it up even more, we'd have to go back to my experience coming to America and just always as an immigrant and having to figure things out. My family, I immigrated from the Soviet Union to the Bay Area. No, but where in the Soviet Union? From Uzbekistan. From Uzbekistan. Former separate country at this point. Yeah, but then a Soviet republic. What was Uzbekistan like? It's Muslim majority, but I would say secular. And everyone got along, I thought, quite well and were Jewish. And I actually didn't even know Jews and Muslims are supposed to not get along when we went to each other's weddings. There's lots of shared history and similarity. That's been true, by the way. I just say factually, that has been true in various parts of the world over time. Not always, of course, are huge problems, but then other places are no problems. And that was one of them. Yeah, so it was, you know, we, you know, I mean, I had a good childhood. We left everything behind because my dad was almost thrown into a labor camp for having an illegal book, which is just like a regular, I'm sure it's probably maybe a book on your shelf. What book was it? It's called Exodus by Leon Euras. No way. Yeah. And it's just a book about fighting for freedom. Exactly. I think it's a concept they didn't want you to know about. Yeah. And we fled. We fled with, I had a hundred bucks and a red suitcase. And we left, lived in Italy in a refugee camp for several months. I eventually got political asylum to come to the United States and then, you know, lived in low income housing for a long time. In the Bay Area. In the Bay Area. What was that like? A couple of things. First, my dad definitely told us that we have to assimilate, that we have to learn the language. He himself, he was a civil engineer. And I saw him at first working flea markets, just doing manual labor. And I think it showed me that he would do anything for his family to have a meal on the table. And I think later in life, it showed me, you know, no one's too good to take out the garbage. That's right. That is exactly right. And in just the value of a dollar, I still, I think, you know, I want to make sure my kids have that, but I still think, and I think back to this business, I think that's why when I see things that are so expensive for people, I feel it in my bones because I still know what it's like to not have any money to make difficult decisions when you only have so many dollars every month. What did your dad wind up doing? He ended up going back to being an engineer. He got trained, education, and he found a mentor to come under his wing, and he became an engineer again. Amazing. Yeah. They really, yeah, so in so many ways, they inspired me. And with that said, there's not much that they knew about America. And so I knew that they would love me, but a lot of times I had to figure everything out for myself. I went to college, I paid for college myself, and I think all of these things taught me to be a survivor, taught me to make something out of nothing, and kind of that's led me to hymns, and ultimately that led me to Dutch. Were you an animal person? We had animals, so in the Soviet Union, tons of animals. So I always definitely grew up with animals. German Shepherd had a black cat. So we had animals up until I was 10, and then we lived in a part in tiny apartments. And so then we got finally when I had a family and we had a house, we got, so that's when we got my corgi. And that's kind of how it all happened, because I was coming off hymns, it was starting to be a big company. I always like smaller companies, and when I can actually still create something. Yes. And then we got a corgi, and started to see the vet bills. And then the kicker was he got into a trail mix, and then we had a $2,000 vet bill. Trail mix? Yeah, trail mix had a couple M&Ms in it, and that's supposed to be chocolate. Not supposed to eat M&Ms, yeah. They like them though. I like them. Who does? Yeah. Did he get sick? No, but the thing is, and that's the thing, is then I was talking to a veterinarian friend, and he said, you really didn't have to do, you didn't have to pump his stomach for the three M&Ms that he ate. So then that's kind of how I started to look around, are there any, like could I have done something else? Did you pump his stomach? Yes. So can I just pause and say, I love how, even if they're misguided, I love how devoted dog owners are to their dogs and cats. I mean, they just like, they'll do anything. Yeah, I'll do anything. Yeah. Yeah, I'll do anything. And so I think that's when I realized there's really no other option when it comes to, there's no telemedicine options that I saw. And it goes back to a lot of times that has to do with the laws. But look, I'm the guy who, I figured when him started, it was actually a similar situation. Back five years ago, telemedicine wasn't legal on the human side either. Like we forget that because it's now so commonplace, but it was also the same thing. And I, and I helped change those laws back then. I think that's kind of why some of these groups are scared of me is because this guy comes from a place where like, he has nothing to lose. He's only doing, I mean, also, I think it's because I'm doing the right thing. I think they don't like that. And I've done it before. So I think that kind of gives me more confidence that I can do it again. And I don't think that's, because before this, so before Dutch came on the scene, what the shelter groups, for example, that wanted telemedicine, what they were doing is talking to the state veterinary boards. Because that's how the, that's a, that's a simpler way that this could all change. If the veterinary board at the state, they could just say, if you want to do telemedicine, do telemedicine, if it's medically appropriate, it could be as simple as that. And so for over 10 years, they were having these conversations. And so that's when I got here. And I'm like, this is doing nothing. So we got to go the legislative route. It's so revealing. However, I mean, again, I think they're probably good people with good motives up and down the line. There always are in these systems, but the system itself is so distorted that they don't put the welfare of animals as the top goal. Like that always has to be the point, right? What's good. If, if you're a veterinary board, the health of animals, that's why you exist. Totally. Right. Totally. But it doesn't seem like they're thinking that way. Well, again, what they'll say is we are thinking of the pets, we think millions of dollars will die with telemedicine. How will that happen? Well, let me tell you, if some of these examples I've seen, they'll say, like I'll say the example I used anxiety, like I'll say, isn't that great for telemedicine? The dog is in the comfort of their home and you can shoot, they'll say, well, what if the dog ate a nail? You know, if the dog ate a nail, I've been in hearings where this example has happened. Yeah. Well, if the dog ate a nail, look, maybe that he's barking because he ate a nail and he's in pain because he ate a nail. And so that's why we shouldn't have to, it's like, are there nails around your house? Like why, why are we going to use this crazy made up example to deny millions of dogs from having this opportunity to use telemedicine? Sure. And if you're dog ate a nail, there's still no good reason why you shouldn't start with telemedicine. Exactly. Yeah. Have that initial call. Yeah. The vet will walk you through it and then you'll know, do I go to ER or not? Exactly. It's not, it doesn't have to be in either or situation. Right. We had a family dog who ate a pin recently, a needle, you know, a sewing needle. And, you know, obviously that's a brick and mortar situation. Yes. The dog passed it without any problems, which is kind of the the canine digestive tract is a wonder. Wow. All kinds of things, mops, pine cones, sewing needles emerge from it. But that it still would have been worth calling initially, like why not? Totally, why not? It takes, before Dutch, there's a poison hotline that's like $75 just for that first call. And you don't even know who you're going to get. And that's what people do because, again, if that's what you need to do, that's what you'll do. But there's definitely ways to talk to a human being veterinarian very quickly, even that for much less and definitely much less than having to spend $1,000 in ER. I had a case where my dog, I thought he was having a seizure and I really, I mean, I really freaked out and I got on Dutch and the vet says he's doing reverse sneezing. Reverse sneezing? Reverse sneezing. I never heard of that in my life. And she showed me videos of reverse sneezing and it looked exactly like what he was going through. And like I said, I was literally about to grab him, drive to ER and she totally calmed me down and made me realize it was completely like that. Totally right. That's, oh, what a great example. We just had a dog, we've had a dog eat marijuana in the park. We had a dog eat hallucinogenic mushrooms in the woods. Totally. The dog has been tripping ever since. Those four years ago, the dog is still seeing trails. Wonderful dog. Woke up with a dog this morning. But in both cases, there really was no treatment at all. And in both cases, those dogs were bundled up and taken to the vet, which did not, not again, I love the vet. I'm not against the vet to be clear, but it didn't help at all because it's just, there's no remedy. Right. There's a time and a place for everything. Right. And I think telemedicine is just a part of the overall experience. I don't think anyone's gonna say it needs to replace the, and it won't happen because it hasn't happened in human care. But I think it's another option for people to get a peace of mind and to have an option that's way more affordable. And we are seeing so many dogs, like I said, being given up or people who are saying, I don't think I can have a dog in my life. Yes. That sucks. Well, that's a tragedy, especially people with children need to have dogs, I think. Totally. It's been, yeah, for us, my kids are little Eddie, the corgi, they love him so much. And it's, it's the best. Can I also say it's really good for your immune system to be around dogs? Yeah, I think I've seen studies that. Really? Yeah. When our first child who's 31 came home from the hospital after being born, both of our dogs, our spaniel jumped up and licked the dog, licked the child's in the mouth. Child's never been sick. It's just a fact. Yeah. I think it definitely, I feel like I've seen stuff that shows. Really? Yeah, that you get that immunity. I'm pretty sure. We've always, since I was born, we've always, my family's always been committed to that. Like you've got to have a lot of dogs around and you stay healthy and everyone's been really healthy. I think that matters. So again, I feel a little weird interviewing you because you've advertised on our show and all that, but I just, I just felt it so strongly. I feel like this is such a good thing. And I think there are a lot of viewers of this who would agree. And so I just, it was sincere. I'm really thinking. Well, I think when you first called me, it was, hey, I like dogs. This makes sense. Yeah. And I think I already, I was like, Tucker's got to know this conspiracy that's happening because it's such baloney and it's so unfair. And so few people kind of, like I said, know how monopolistic it is. And I thought that your listeners and you could help us because I think we're the Goliath in this fight over the, right, with a David. Yes. In this fight. And it needs people to understand how crazy the situation is for both for veterinarians who, like I said, feel scared to do telemedicine as well as for pet owners who can't afford it. And it all has to do with these trade associations who are keeping and using their monopoly power to change, to keep the laws from changing. So I think that whole part you had no idea what's going on. I had literally no idea. And again, for us at this age, you know, it, I don't, it's the cost is not the main barrier for us. The barrier is the dog. It's just so much suffering for the dogs to go to the vet. And sometimes there's no choice. And I get it. But if we can avoid that, we would just be so thankful to avoid it. In your dogs. So it's Dutch.com. Yep. DUTCH. Well, I'm sure I'll be attacked for insider dealing, but it's not. I think you'd advertise with us no matter what, but I just wanted you to be able to say all of that at length. So I'm grateful that you did. Thank you. Yes. Joe Spector. Thank you. Thank you.