Bull Shark Attack - Triathlon Chuck and the Big Bull Shark

A lot of you already know this, but the girls at National Park After Dark are kind of our best friends in the podcast world. We've just been collaborating with them since almost the beginning. We really like them personally. We love their show. And so we're so excited to announce that we're finally doing a trip with Danielle and Cassie from National Park After Dark. And it's going to be a really amazing trip. We wanted to go big if we were going to do a trip together, and we're really going big. We are going to go to the Svalbard Archipelago. archipelago, I should have had Jeff say it, but I'm saying it, next June, 2027, on an amazing cruise where we hope to see polar bears, walrus, Arctic fox, tons of cool birds, and just have an incredible time with some incredible people. Anyone can sign up for this trip, but we are going to offer the link to our Patreon subscribers first. The link will be posted to Patreon sometime this week, and they're going to have 48 hours to sign up before we then send the link to the rest of our audience. So if this is a trip that you think you'd be really interested in going on, sign up for our Patreon, check it out. You can always cancel it if you don't like it, but if you've been kind of putting that off and you want to go on a trip, this is the week to sign up. Again, it'll be offered to Patreon for 48 hours, and then if there's still spots available, we're going to offer it to the rest of the audience. We're so excited. We're so stoked. I'm really hoping that we have some incredible polar bear action. I've never seen polar bears in Svalbard. I've never been to Svalbard. Neither of the boys. This is our first time in Norway. Just can't really overemphasize how excited we are for this trip. And to finally do a trip with Danielle and Cassie is such a dream. So we can't wait. Check it out. Get on Patreon if you want it. And we'll see you soon. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Tooth and Claw Podcast. We're back to just scrapping by this one. I'm recording in a bathroom. I stole Wes's cord, so he had to go back to our old school setup. And Mike, I don't even know what room you're in, but it's a good room. So we're great. He's in a closet. Looks like you're in a closet at least. It's in one of those beaver rooms where they have like a mud room. They knock all the mud off their tails or whatever before they go into the main house. Japanese people have those too. Japanese people and beavers. Yeah. Mike, I think humans call those mud rooms. Yeah, I don't think you have to call it a beaver room. I think we have that as well. The term slipped my brain. Forgive me. I've been sick for about a week because of the hot dog incident. We won't expound. listen to our subscriber we need to expound what do you mean uh i'm gonna expound we we for a while now have been talking about how fast mike thinks he can eat a hot dog and he's said anything from like 15 seconds to 30 seconds so at disneyland tokyo i was shamed for saying 45 seconds for my i was with you though jeff i i didn't think mike could do it that fast and then at disneyland tokyo I bought a hot dog and it seemed like it met the criteria of just like a small hot dog. I would say there's a lot of bread on that dog. There was maybe a slightly, yeah, more bread than normal, but it seemed close enough to give it a shot. And Mike did it in 41 seconds, but it completely wrecked his entire body somehow. So he hasn't been hungry in like a week now. And he's probably really grumpy too, I'm guessing. Because I, no. Well, yes, always. I'm like the Hulk in that way I'm always grumpy but the thing about the hot dog contest and I'm still I consider this bet kind of annulled for the moment because I didn't have water to dunk the bun in that's so essential I think I could really get under 30 seconds pretty easy with the water dunk I feel like I recall a time though where you said that you could do it in like 20 seconds without water no problem like there was a high level of confidence that's going to be really really hard to ever prove anybody said anything, but I know how we argue, and this is never going to end. I know Gerbs on our trip said that he could do it in like 10 seconds, and I do not believe that anymore. Not even a little bit. Yeah, it's way too quick. He said he was the throat goat, though. Self-proclaimed, so. We should just quickly say, we're back from a trip. We had an amazing time. Quickly just wanted to mention... We're back? Well, you guys aren't back, Sorry, but we're back from a toothy trip. And I just wanted to mention everyone that went. We had Ben, Cassie, Shawnee, Emily, Ian, the three of us, obviously. Gerbs, Alex, Allison, Antoine, Christian, Danielle, Eric, and Lucinda. Truly just an amazing group. It was one of my favorite trips we've done, though. It was super fun. We had an amazing time. Got to be on a dive boat for half of it, in the jungle for the other half. Just a really great group. And some cool animals. so i loved it it's fun handling venomous snakes yeah that one secret the secret i was like i don't know if i should be holding this thing but i'm going to and it's like jumping up it was like as tom cruise jumping off that motorcycle jump just doing it i felt the exact same it was funny because we had like swirling sharks all around the boat at night and ian just jumps into the middle of the sharks, grabs a top 10 most venomous snake, swims over, hands it to me, and I'm just totally trusting that it's not going to bite me. And then we all of us just kind of took turns, you know, seeing it and holding it on the deck, which was pretty cool. Mike, I do understand now your kind of depression when you got home from Japan last year. It just, it feels like you're living in a strip mall when you get back to the US after being in Japan. It's kind of rough. So I miss playing pachinko. Pachinko. I miss all the good food mostly. A warm toilet seat every time you sit down. Oh, boy. One of my favorite little touches here is they always put their toilets in like a little closet room. Oh, that's true. But then like the bathroom, you don't have toilet stuff going on. Yeah. You don't know poop particles. Yeah. It doesn't make sense to keep your toothbrush and the toilet in the same room, personally. I think it's smart to get those two separate. Maybe I don't like poop. We got to relive that argument on this trip too, which we'll bring up some other time. Let's get into this episode. Let's do it. It's one that I'm actually, I'm pretty excited for, even though it's a re-peat animal. It's one that we've done a few times, this animal, but they're in a group of animals. You know, I'm being coy again, but people have read the title of the episode by now. it's a shark and we just got done diving every time I go diving I just gain more and more appreciation for how beautiful sharks are how wonderful they are to see underwater how important they are to their ecosystems and how maligned they are in the public perception and you know that whole shark infested water thing still pops up sometimes and it just makes me think that's their home that's the ocean it's just waters you know it's human infested waters is what it is. And this story for me just kind of is a classic shark attack. And it's one that I think illustrates some really interesting things about their behavior. So I'm excited to do it. I'm excited for you to do it. So Chuck Anderson was born to a father that was a school principal and a high school football coach. And then his mom was also a school teacher. So it really wasn't much of a surprise when he also decided to become a teacher and a coach in 1975. He moved to robertsdale alabama in 1975 and quickly started making it roll tide and quickly started making a difference in young people's lives both on the football field and in the classroom i can't really overemphasize how just like kind of good of a dude chuck seemed to be in his interviews he just seems like the kind of guy every young kid needs as like a mentor during this time of their lives probably not a good coach though i think he was a good coach but i'm not sure everyone called him i think in alabama if you're putting any importance into the school work you're not the best you can't be a good coach too he did talk a lot more about coaching than he did school so i do think that was his main focus yeah would you rather have this guy or mr miyagi as your childhood mentor definitely this guy miyagi just seemed like he was having daniel son do chores for him or coach boone who's coach boone friday night lights remember the titans oh coach boone yeah miyagi is a little too chaotic i don't think me and me gave him a car long he did and it's a sick car that's true he's generous yeah maybe it's miyagi i don't know so chuck has a wife betsy and two kids they really love the small town community of robertsdale and everyone not only knew chuck they called him coach they knew where he lived and that he kept his keys in his truck and that they could use it if they ever needed it they just needed to leave a note he's like so i mean this is like a real kind of norman rockwell kind of town yeah i'm just gonna start calling him miyagi for the rest of the story in the year 2000 chuck's kids were starting to grow up. His son Sam was 13. His daughter Laura was 15. But while his kids were growing up, Chuck was growing out. I thought you were going to say growing down. He was a Benjamin Button. You see, in Robertsdale, just about everywhere he would go, people were in love with the high school coaches, especially the football coach. So he would get free food everywhere, especially the local buffets. Do you guys know much about Southern food? Oh, I know quite a bit. Enlighten us. How, what's the calorie kind of count in most Southern food? In a word, dense. It's very dense. It's very homey and comforting. I'd say calories don't exist down south. No, no one's counting calories down in Alabama. Yeah, I remember I spent a little bit of time in Mobile, which isn't far from here. And I just remember thinking like everything I've eaten in the last 24 hours is possibly like the most calorie dense food I've ever had in my life, like the homeiest, most comfort food ever. And it was delicious, but it was crazy heavy food. I remember going to a Waffle House. Where did we go to Waffle House? That was in West Virginia. Yeah. West Virginia. And it's like, if you didn't just get the normal waffles, it was a lot of sugar and butter on there. Yeah. Yeah. Like every other option was just like cinnamon roll on your waffle. Yeah. And that's diet food for Robertsdale, Alabama. Chuck's getting kind of beefy is what I'm trying to say here. He'd gone with his daughter and she was getting a physical. And after she stepped off the scale to record her body weight, he stepped on just to see what he was weighing. And the scale tipped to 279 and his daughter told him that he was getting a little fat. So one thing you have to know about Chuck, and this is important to the story, is that he is very competitive. The kind of person where competition just really fuels him. So when his daughter told him he was fat, he immediately told her that he could still outrun her and they drove to the high school track. um he said he hit the half mile mark and he was on all fours vomiting because he was so out of shape and she beat him oh they ran a mile yeah he hit the half mile and started throwing up so they were just like going for it yeah and that you know i i want to like take a step back and say i don't think that that necessarily means he was fat that he weighed that much but for him it did this was like outside of his typical weight range so he needed to make some changes and for nine straight months he ran every single day in an effort to get in shape and he actually got into competitive running because this guy loves competition and he started running 5ks and 10ks half marathons but what really energized him were triathlons do you guys know what a triathlon is yeah what is it jeff it's water land and land yes what are the two lands uh swimming cycling and running it's a combo of swimming cycling and running and usually swim like a couple miles and then bike dozens of miles and then run a few you know i don't know how many miles but you do bring up an interesting point inadvertently there jeff it the third should be air right like a squirrel suit just like like the last leg is just bombing down a mountain in a flight suit thing or a hang glider segue if we're going fifth if we're going fifth element rules there would also be fire and love in there too so you have to do both of those as well is there a way to like work out in the air that's a good point lots of somersaults maybe just like bicycle kicks well you said this is about a shark right yeah we're getting there so do you know which person you got that joke lined up what joke i think if i competed against a shark in a triathlon i could win running and it would win swimming so it all comes down to cycling you didn't have that joke locked and loaded i didn't oh shoot i did that really screws up I spoiled it. Yeah. Well, the thing that Chuck liked so much about triathlons was that they pushed him really physically and forced him to get in better shape. But they also had this competitive aspect to him. Plus, he had found and made friends within the triathlon community, and they helped him train and reach his goals. And for someone who really only gets into working out if I have someone else there with me that's pushing me, I totally understand that. I need that kind of buddy or motivation from someone else to really keep to my goals. So I get how this really fueled Chuck and it's the thing that he really grasped onto. Yeah, it's impressive. That's like, I mean, if people are comfortable with where they're at physically, then like, by all means, I guess, just do whatever makes you feel best. But like, I really respect people that see a change that needs to be made and go whole hog. Yeah. Yeah. You love going whole hog. The whole hog. You ate that whole hot dog. Takes him like 40 seconds. Yeah. 41. With water, 20. My timer said 45. All right. So this is exactly what Chuck was doing on the morning of June 9th, 2000. He had scheduled triathlon training with two friends. and when his alarm went off that morning at 5 15 a.m he immediately regretted making those plans it was friday morning school had just let out for the summer he hit the snooze button and just thought you know i might just sleep in this morning but when the alarm went off 10 minutes later the thoughts of disappointing his friends crept into his mind he got up and started getting ready should hit that snooze button again chuck you should have trusted that instinct on this one the plan was for them to meet at gulf shores which is a short drive from robertsdale it's kind of the premier beach in alabama if you look at coastal alabama it kind of alabama just gets cut out by a lot of the florida panhandle and there's just a little tiny square that has coast and gulf shores and dauphin island where christian who's on our trip is from or is living oh yeah are kind of like the only beachfront in alabama there's really not much so that's where they're He's been there a lot. He does. Yeah, and I've been to Gulf Shores, and it was really nice. It was a nice beach. So they're going to do a one-and-a-half-mile swim in the Gulf of Mexico and a 35-mile bike ride. One of these friends was Karen Forfer, who was a four-time Hawaiian Ironman champion and a five-time world champion. She's 64. She's a really good swimmer, obviously, and she was a perfect training partner for Chuck because he was really competitive, and that competitive nature didn't want him to let himself lose to a 64 year old woman you know i think he's a bit of a good old boy too so like the thought of losing to a woman was down in this male ego of his but she's a better swimmer than him so spoiler alert she beats in like a fun way though right yeah they were training oh he totally respects her and like knows that she's a better swimmer than him but it still makes him like want to try and beat her it's like just the extra motivation maybe she leads into it too like you just lost to a girl she's she might but i don't yeah i don't feel i need to do this yeah maybe she's a good old girl you ever think of that no i'm not doing devil's advocate i'm just saying it i'm just making it sound like friendly competition it was yep all right their other friend richard whatley that day decided that he would swim out a little deeper. He wanted to be in calmer water, but Karen and Chuck just swam past the breakers to start their swim. So they're about a hundred yards from the beach. The plan was to swim a mile and a half from east to west, and it's still early morning, so they had the water pretty much all to themselves. Or so they thought. They were actually sharing the water that morning with a species of shark that many shark experts around the world consider to be the most dangerous shark species, and that shark is the bull shark. I bring packets of Element on every tooth and claw trip. We were just in Komodo, and while I was scuba diving, when I scuba dive, I like to drink in a lot of ocean water just so I can try to eventually become more like a fish. So you'd think with all that salt water I'd be good, but no way. Element's my go-to for hydration, And jokes aside, after scuba diving even, I'd feel dehydrated, I'd drink an Element, and it's just insane the difference that I felt afterwards. I need this stuff everywhere I go. So glad that they're our sponsor. Element's a zero-sugar electrolyte drink mix and sparkling electrolyte drink born from the growing body of research, revealing the optimal health outcomes at sodium levels two to three times government recommendations. Get a free eight-count sample pack of Element's most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinkelement.com slash tooth. Find your favorite Element flavor or share with a friend. Try Element totally risk-free. If you don't like it, give it away to a salty friend and we'll give you your money back, no questions asked. They have a very low return rate and high reorder rate. All right. We've talked a lot about sharks on the podcast and the species that represent the greatest threats to humans. And we've gone over the big three a lot. Do either of you remember the species that make up the big three when it comes to bites on humans? Great white tiger shark. Number two. Bull shark. Number three Good job And in order You get bonus points for that Jeff Big time it different than my all right the big three make up about 85 percent of all known shark bites on humans and there's some reasons for that first of all I think this is probably the number one reason they are big enough macro predatory sharks so again there's bigger sharks than them but they're mostly eating little things like plankton and krill and small fish. These are macro predators, so they're eating fish and mammals and bigger stuff. They're big enough that we don't automatically size out of the prey that they're typically looking for. So like when we're diving and we see a white-tip reef shark or something, we just know that it's probably not going to come up and try and decide if we're food because we're just too big for it to really bring down anyway. So we're not really in their category. But these three sharks... Especially this guy. Right? What's his name again? Chuck. Chuck. He's a big boy. Yeah, Chuck's sizing out of a lot of sharks. So that's number one. Second, they have teeth that are designed to cut and shear rather than hold. So if you look at, for example, like a sand tiger shark, you see those really thin conical teeth. They're more for grabbing a fish and just kind of holding it and then swallowing it in one bite. Tiger sharks, bull sharks, great whites have serrated triangular teeth that are used for shearing. So when they bite, they shake their head back and forth. It shears off big chunks of flesh. And that's why they're more dangerous to humans than these sharks that just kind of bite and hold. Third, and this is probably the other one that's most important, is they are found in shallow coastal waters. And people also like to recreate in shallow coastal waters. So these are the sharks we tend to just run into the most too. So even though both sharks are third on the list, there's a decent chance they're responsible for a lot of bites that are just assigned to uncategorized Requiem shark. And that is because the person was bit by a large gray shark that they were not able to adequately identify the species. Whereas white sharks and tiger sharks have features that often make them more identifiable. so usually when someone's bit by a white shark they're also in waters where you don't really have tiger sharks or bull sharks and they just kind of know it was a white shark the same often goes for tiger sharks because of the banding patterns and their square face they're just more identifiable than bull sharks that kind of just look like a classic shark yeah that makes sense all right we've talked about them a fair amount on the podcast but we're going to do some quick refresher facts and then we're going to spend a few minutes on something that i think is very interesting that we've kind of just glazed over in the past. They're large Requiem sharks, meaning they're in the same group of sharks like gray reef sharks, black tip reef sharks, white tip reef sharks, and oceanic white tips. Requiem sharks are almost always gray on top, white on the bottom. They're just like, again, your classic looking sharks. They're quite large and stocky with females being a bit larger than males, getting to sizes over 10 feet or three meters long. They have triangular serrated teeth that kind of just look like smaller great white teeth and they're extremely sharp and effective at cutting through flesh. They often bump before biting. It's a classic bull shark thing where the person will get a big bump by the shark before it then comes in and bites. They're found throughout the world in tropical and subtropical waters and they get their name from their stocky build and their aggressive nature. But one of the things that bull sharks are most well known for is they're able to live in both saltwater and freshwater environments. We've talked about bull sharks in freshwater and how they've been found hundreds or even thousands of miles upriver, but we haven't gone into a lot of detail on how that's possible. So I want to cover it a bit today. So when we think about skin as humans, our skin is kind of more of like a barrier, like nothing really gets through it unless we really rub it in and kind of led it through. But fish and amphibians have a much more permeable skin. Their skin allows a lot more stuff in and out. And so with fish, osmosis is constantly kind of happening with them. And marine biologists out there are going to get kind of mad at me that I'm going to be oversimplifying a lot of this stuff, but I'm going to dumb it down a little bit because I need it. And I think our audience needs it because this is complicated physiological stuff. in osmosis water is always trying to move from less salty fluids to more salty fluids so if you were to put like two things of water next to each other one of them's really salty one of them's less salty and then you put a permeable membrane in between those two things the water would move from the less salty into the more salty until it's all the same and that's osmosis the water just kind of moving to create a balanced saltiness between those two bits of water. So all osmosis is determined by the salinity. Like that's always the rule for osmosis. The definition of osmosis is like the movement of water across a permeable or semi-permeable membrane to create like a balanced solute concentration, something like that. I'm kind of paraphrasing a little. But basically you are going from less salty water to more salty water to try and create a balance. That's good to know. I never watched the movie about that. About Osmosis Jones? Chris Rock's finest. You would understand. His vanity project. So I want you guys to focus on that fact, though, that water wants to move from a less salty environment to a more salty environment. That's the direction water is trying to move in osmosis. So in saltwater, the water is often saltier than the body fluids of the fish. So therefore, water is prone to move out of the fish because it's trying to get to the saltier area and into the surrounding water. So this means that saltwater fish have organs and processes that are focused on retaining water and removing salt because their water is trying to move out of them into the surrounding atmosphere, into the water. So their bodies are really focused on retaining water and removing the extra salt. Now, the opposite is true with freshwater fish. Because body fluids are saltier than freshwater, water is constantly trying to move into freshwater fish. So they are focused on removing water and retaining salt. so freshwater fish are constantly peeing because they're trying to get rid of water and they have organs that are trying to keep as much salt as possible in their bodies this all making sense so far yeah lots of yeah pee something so when you put a saltwater fish into a freshwater environment water is going to be flowing into that fish due to osmosis and its body, but its body is used to conserving water. So because of that, all this water is flowing into them because of osmosis, but then their organs are also keeping water. And so basically they're all of their cells and their organs and everything are overloaded with water and they essentially drown to death and they have no salt content in their bodies and they die. So that's what happens when you put a freshwater fish, or sorry, a saltwater fish into a freshwater environment. If you put a freshwater fish into a saltwater environment, its body is built to expel water and its water is also trying to escape into the saltier water around it. So it essentially dehydrates while it's still living while it's suspended in water, which is kind of crazy. So that's what happens to fish when you put them in the opposite environment. So basically the danger for a bull shark entering freshwater would be that its body, which is used to getting rid of salts and retaining that water would get would continue doing that and it would become flooded with too much water. But bull sharks are one of the only types of fish in the world that are able to simply reverse what their body is doing as they switch water types. And they have four organs that help them with that process. The first is their rectal gland. Their rectal gland is responsible for excreting salt. So when they go into fresh water, it simply stops excreting very much salt at all. Their kidneys. When they're in fresh water, their kidneys produce large amounts of highly diluted urine, which allows them to constantly urinate and remove excess water and retain salt. So their kidneys essentially start functioning like a freshwater fish's kidneys would function. Their liver. Their liver produces high amounts of urea that lead to a higher concentration of salt in their blood. And then their gills. And it's thought that they can use their gills to uptake sodium and chloride from the water. So basically the thing that sets bull sharks apart from pretty much every other fish on the planet is that their bodies can actively change the way that they remove and uptake salt. And fish like salmon can change from freshwater to saltwater, actually undergo these really big physiological changes that pretty much kill them. So like when a salmon changes and goes from the saltwater to the freshwater to run upstream to lay its eggs they're slowly being killed by the fresh water and they have these physiological changes that allow them to survive for a bit but it's not like a bull shark where they can like thrive in the fresh water yeah i think so if i ever have kids it'll be like how a salmon does it you're just gonna have them and die yeah just like sure you know what it's up to you it's up to you to make it in this world yeah i'm out of here they don't even and male salmon don't even know they're having kids they're just jizzing on a bunch of rocks so you can just do that and die if you want uh yeah don't let your do that you don't have to let your dreams stay dreams you can go do that right now i it's really crazy with like large organs in the body i just never really think of being like plastic or flexible enough to change really in any discernible manner. But the fact that they can just adapt so drastically is crazy to me. That's so interesting. And part of it too with bull sharks is they have really salty blood to begin with. Like they have a really high concentration of urea in their blood to begin with, but that's kind of a hindrance when they're in salt water. So it's kind of, it's pretty amazing. I agree that they have that kind of plasticity because you don't really see that much in the natural world. Animals are usually just built for one kind of environment. And these are very hostile environments to each other. Like if you put a freshwater fish in saltwater, it dies and vice versa. So it's pretty crazy that they can do it. It kind of sounds like Chuck could use this for a halftime speed. He could. He could, yeah. Like, you know what's really built different? A bull shark. Yeah, he probably could. He maybe has since his bite. But we're going to get into that. Truly the most built different animal. Arousing speech. I think it's great. Clear eyes kind of thing. I didn't do the whole speech. I'm worth shopping. He's spitballing here. Well, none of this really applies to our story because it does just happen in saltwater. But I think it's really cool and it's something we hadn't really gone into about bull sharks yet. Tooth and Claw is brought to you by Hollow Socks. For me, I really care about my socks because especially when I travel, you only have so many pairs of socks you can take with you. And you need to have ones that are prepared for any kind of conditions you might get into. So I like socks that are comfortable when it's cold, when it's hot, that feel good on my feet, that are nice for planes. And that's why I'm so thrilled to tell you guys about hollow socks. 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Head to hollowsocks.com today to check it out. That's hollowsocks.com for up to 50% off your order. Hollow like something is hollow when it has nothing inside of it. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them, and you can support our show by telling them that we sent you. So Chuck and Karen are out swimming about 100 yards from the shore. Chuck is swimming hard to keep up with Karen, and they're swimming past an area that included an old pier and some large wood supports in the water. and Jeff when we were in Maui we dove or we snorkeled a bit around an old pier with big wooden supports and what would you say about like the marine life around these kind of structures yeah that was one of my favorite just like let's go dive at this random spot gooba dives ever is really good a lot of animals liked the old piers a lot of sea turtles didn't you see a shark i did or they told us that there'd be sharks in there i saw a white tip there i think but yeah basically these piers these big pillars in the water act as essentially artificial reefs so they you know smaller fish and algae and whatnot grow on them which attracts small fish which attracts slightly larger fish which attracts larger fish and then brings in sharks and other predators so it can attract a lot of life so as they're swimming by this old pier there's a very good chance that the shark had been hanging out nearby and as they're going by chuck takes a look at his iron man watch it says 6 38 in the morning he puts his head back in the water he takes a few more strokes when suddenly something slams him at full force and spins him through the water he said it felt like he had been pillars it could have been one of the pillars yeah we don't know exactly what it was but i'm pretty sure it was a bull shark he said though it felt like he had been hit by a bulldozer so it could have been a bulldozer too um he had half of it right yeah awesome job thank you i don't even know why am i even on this i should just leave jeff has got us covered don't joke mike he's so much faster on the draw he was faster on that one you gotta be quicker Those are my lines. Those are my lines. Fastest jokes. If you want the lines, you've got to say I'm faster. Fine. Multiple times during the interviews, he gave really good descriptive analogies for the feeling of the shark slamming into him. So I'm actually going to have Bill cut them together because I think it'll be a good little segment. It was just stunning, like a bulldozer running into you. It was like just being hit by a baseball bat. It felt like a linebacker getting run over by a fullback. He just freight trained me. It was a shark, a bull shark. He immediately knew it was a shark, and before he could really comprehend what was happening, the shark was rolling him over on his back and almost up and out of the water. Then the shark disappeared. Chuck started screaming and treading water. He yelled at Karen to get out of the water and swim for the beach, and when she heard him she did exactly that and just a quick reminder here people if you are with someone in the water and they do get bit by a shark the best thing you can do is try and help them there's a good chance that your presence will be enough to scare off that shark a very good chance there is a chance you'll get bit too so you do need to accept that it requires a lot of bravery to swim at someone that's being bitten by a shark sure but it most likely will stop that attack. You've said that a few times, but this is the first time I've ever wondered this. So like, what about if a shark attacked like a sea lion? Would it be smart for other sea lions to swim up? It is, yeah. And they can often stop the attack from happening. Like a group of sea lions or seals is often enough to discourage even white sharks from keeping your hair. What if I saw a sea lion getting attacked and swam up? Probably. Honestly, it would probably stop it. But again, I wouldn't do that because there is a chance the shark will bite you. And I don't blame Karen for swimming away because she probably didn't know that. But you would do it for a person. I would, I think. Show us where your priorities are. I view animals the same. Yeah, I don't, but we've talked about this before on the podcast. I love animals more than anything, but I think people's lives are generally more important. All right. So Chuck was panicked. He's looking over the surface of the water with his goggles still on, and then he plunges his head underwater to see if he could see anything. And he did see something. What he saw was the shark racing up from the bottom toward him and just a few feet away. Damn. The shark slammed into him again so hard that he could barely think or even breathe, and he instinctively threw his hands out in front of him to try and push the shark away. He felt a strong tug on his right hand, and then when he started trying to swim backward away from the shark, he noticed red spreading out from his body in a pool. He raised his right hand and stared at it in shock. The shark had completely severed all of his fingers in a single bite, and he could see the milky gray of his knuckles sticking out of the flesh. Only his thumb remained on his mangled hand, just his thumb, and he continued to stare in shock at it as he wiggled his thumb to make sure it was still there. He felt no pain whatsoever, so the whole thing felt very dreamlike to him, and that's why he was wiggling his thumb. With all the blood in the water, he started worrying that he might be attracting more sharks, so he held his mangled hand out of the water and did his best to backpedal toward the beach. He's making slow progress with only one hand, and it felt as though he had struggled forever when he stuck his head under the water one more time at the exact moment that the shark made another charge and rammed into his thighs. Now, one thing I just want to talk about really quick here. Hearing his story this shark keeps just slamming into him and not necessarily biting and I do think there a fairly good chance that we dealing with a territorial attack here that this bull shark was just pissed at him that he was upset with the intrusion and that it's just ramming him and trying to get him out of there i don't think this is an inquisitive shark that's biting to figure out what he is i think this is either a shark that's just pissed off or one that is in full predator mode it's one of the two But the fact that it's not biting him and it's continually ramming him without biting, I do think really when he gets bit, it's always because he's pushing it. I think it's a good chance this is just a shark that's being territorial. And that does happen with bull sharks. Maybe it just doesn't want to leave the job undone. Get that thumb, you know? Yeah. Just trying to get him in the perfect. Five for five. We talk about how opposable thumbs are like something that sets us apart from a lot of animals. What good is an opposable thumb without your other fingers? That's pretty deep. Think about that. You can give someone a big old thumb. Or how dangerous is a shark with five fingers? Yeah, that's a good point. That's true. One opposable thumb. What if it's doing like a Frankenstein thing or Buffalo Bill? Maybe it's like a whole human jacket down there. I will say too to – Tucking its penis. I hope paint the picture a little. Yeah. I'm glad you snuck in that last detail. Talking to Christian about the ocean out there, it isn't like the best clarity either. So it'd be kind of scary just to like not be able to see it that well. I took some time to look at a bunch of satellite images because I thought of that too, Jeff. And I think where he was 100 yards out past the breakers, he probably had a bit of visibility. And I've been to Gulf Shores, and I do remember that if you swam out a bit, it started to get a little bit clearer. But it's not by any means clear, good visibility water. It still is murky. Yeah. Yeah, and that's part of probably what led to this encounter, almost certainly. And we're going to talk again briefly at the end of this about the factors surrounding bull shark bites specifically, but that's a really good observation. So after the shark slammed into him again, you're welcome. The shark again swam off and left Chuck screaming for help and ducking his head underwater to check for the shark. The shark, meanwhile, had mounted another charge and this time slammed into Chuck's stomach, knocking the air out of him. He pushed the shark away with his hands. Yeah, cheap shot. I hate that. Pushed the shark away with his hands. It swam off, but when Chuck turned around to look for it, he saw the dorsal fin of the shark slicing through the water and heading straight toward him. he tried to push off the shark but in one quick movement it bit into his right forearm and dragged him down below the surface of the water for some reason the shark pulled him all the way down to the seafloor and his shoulder slammed into the sand he was already short on breath just from fighting the shark so like you know if you've ever been like roughhousing in a pool and then someone holds your head underwater in like three seconds you feel like you're about to drown because you just don't have any air in your lungs. And that's kind of how Chuck was like immediately. He felt like he was drowning. He couldn't see much because his goggles had gotten pulled off. And as the shark held him on the seafloor, he's surrounded by just eerie silence and he feels death coming. And he starts seeing images of his family and his kids flashing through his mind. He makes a promise to God that if he gets one more breath, he'll like praise God every single day and as he thinks about that he actually feels himself being lifted up toward the surface once again the shark drags him upward and he breaks the surface of the water and takes a huge gasp of air so he owes him he owes god every day yeah yeah chuck felt like he had been saved but then he realized his right arm was still in the shark's mouth he started fighting the shark and just focusing on staying on the surface because he wasn't sure he would survive another trip to the bottom but as he fought the shark started swimming with him in tow once again this time it stayed on the surface and it seemed to be dragging him out into deeper water and further from the beach oh he might be able to set like a personal record with the shark's help he's like swim faster than karen shark assisted record it's like you know when like long jumps have like the wind assisted little asterisk next to it. It's like Mike eating a hot dog. It's like Mike eating a hot dog but he uses a shark to help him eat it. So he gets it in like two seconds. Oh my god. He probably can't eat a hot dog hella fast and it won't make them sick for a freaking week afterward. That bread is going to get stuck in their little throats. A crazy thing about this beach though is there are big sandbars way out in the water. So Chuck is feeling just intense pain and pressure in his right arm as the shark continues to drag him about 75 yards, but then miraculously, his feet hit sand, and he realized that the shark had dragged him up onto his sandbar and had effectively beached itself on top of him. So he's kind of pinned now between the sand and the body of the shark. And he could feel the entire weight of this probably 300-pound shark pushing down onto him. He does his best to squirm out from under the shark, and he's punching at it in the gills with his left arm and doing whatever he could to get away. He also finally gets his best look at the shark and he looks into his eyes and in interviews he said the eyes were emotionless and blank like there was nothing looking back at him and I know that what he meant by this was like this was a thoughtless murderous kind of killer but I actually love it when people say this about animals because what it actually means is that there isn't any emotion in this. This is an animal that is just eating or you know trying to get rid of a threat you know there's no hate in it there's no murderous intent it's either just trying to feed itself or get rid of you and that to me is a beautiful thing it's not a bad thing what do you expect its eyes to like show that it's feel sorry for you right you know that it's like super pissed at you yeah like that's almost worse if it's mad at you. I think the Quint thing, you know, where he says like a doll's eyes, a dark black doll's eyes, it's kind of like, yeah, this is an animal. It's its natural history. It's doing animal stuff. You're in its environment and it's reacting. And I think that's, that's great. You know, it's unique about this story. It might be like the best example I've ever heard of, like a fair fight of a human versus shark. Yeah. He's doing a good job. Like half on the water and then half on land so it's like you get a chance to beat me on your territory but then like let's go to my turf and see what happens yeah maybe when the shark was drowning him it was like you know what this isn't fair this isn't fair to the service chuck loves competition yeah respect so chuck actually gets to his knees in the sand he continues to hit the shark with his left arm because it still has his right arm in its mouth. He pulls back with his right arm to try and free it. And as he does this, the shark actually like thrashes and pulls to the left and the teeth strip down his right arm. Blood fills the water. Once again, Chuck feels a slight tug and then he falls backwards and he's free. He immediately gets up and he starts running down the sandbar toward the beach screaming, you're not taking me away from my kids, you damn shark. You're not taking me away from my kids. See, that's a big mistake. That's where he finally has the advantage to beat the shark in the fight. Like elbow drop right there. Yeah. The shark's vulnerable. Yeah. Gut punch the shark. Knock the wind out of that thing. See how it likes. Well, the shark got away. So this is a draw, I think. No, actually, I give this one to the shark and you're about to see why. As he runs down the sandbar and toward the beach, he purposely isn't looking at his right arm, but he could feel the blood running down his arm and onto his chest. He then sees Karen come running toward him crying with a shocked look on her face. And as she approaches Chuck, she says, oh, my gosh, you don't have an arm. The shark had completely removed Chuck's arm from the elbow down. Wow. they walked up the beach they could already hear the sirens of the approaching ambulance and chuck could hear and see people vomiting as they saw the remains of his tattered arm which guys you gotta hold it in he can't vomit in front of the sky as he gets loaded into the ambulance chuck was told they couldn't scramble a helicopter in time they would take him to the nearest hospital which was in a town called foley and he immediately thought about how this town was like full of his rivals because they had beaten Foley in football and how people were not going to be happy to see him there. So he's joking with the paramedics saying like, not Foley, don't take me to Foley. What a coach. Yeah. I take him back all the way. He's a great football coach. He is. On the ambulance ride, they also discovered that he had been bitten in the stomach. He was losing a lot of blood, but he refuses any medicine that would make him unconscious because he really wanted to see his kids in case he did die. And he had not said I love you to them that morning and he usually did. And so he really just wanted to see them and tell them I love you one last time. He does see his family at the hospital. He tells them he loves them and then he immediately asks the nurse for morphine and then he doesn't really remember the next five or six days. But the doctors did do multiple surgeries. They managed to save his elbow which apparently makes a huge difference if you lose your arm to have your elbow because it's really good for like propping and pushing yourself up and whatnot it's important if you can keep your elbow so that was a big win for chuck and pretty much his whole town came to see him at some point a couple people joked that they would probably be able to beat him in a triathlon now because he wouldn't be able to swim very well and you know that lit a bit of a fire under old chuck made him feel really competitive and he made up his mind that he was going to keep training. So the following year, he competed in a triathlon, and when all the contestants lined up in the water, Chuck got pretty scared. He considered getting out of the water because it was really his first time in salt water. But then those competitive juices kicked in, and when the countdown got down to two, he yelled shark, and everyone got really scared, and when it hit one, he had a bit of a head start on everyone because they were all looking around for a shark and he actually ended up winning first in his division for that race what no way just a great dude one of the things i liked most about chuck though was the attitude he took toward sharks and shark attacks following his encounter he actually went to washington dc to lobby for increased protections for sharks when he learned they're being killed at a massive scale for finning and as bycatch. He's also reached out to a lot of other shark bite victims as, as like recently as this last year to provide support and compassion to them as they go through the most traumatic experience of their lives. Basically just a really good person that made the most out of a really terrible day that changed his life forever. That's amazing. So was the hand that got, or the arm that got bit off the same one as the fingers. So his other hand is still intact. Totally normal from what I know. Oh, nice. That's good. Yeah. Yep. So really quickly, I learned a bit about bull sharks on this episode, and I just wanted to remind our listeners conditions to kind of avoid if you are in a place where there are bull sharks. First of all, time of day is really important. Sharks like to be out hunting early morning or in the late evening. A big part of that is because your water visibility gets a lot less and it's easier for them to sneak up on things, including fish. So they really like to be hunting in decreased water visibility. So another thing to really look out for is like high turbidity or murkiness in water. So if you have like a big storm and a ton of water has pushed out through rivers and sewers and whatnot, what that water does is wash out tons of little scraps for fish to feed on. So big schools of little fish will kind of move in closer to shore when that happens, and the sharks will follow them in too. And it also makes it harder for them to identify what they're about to bite. So really, that's the perfect storm for shark bites. So if you ever have really murky conditions in a place that might have bull sharks, you should be extra cautious and really consider whether or not it's worth getting in the water. One other thing I learned is that increases in temperature in water can also lead to a lot of attacks. So Australia has had a big spate of recent bull shark attacks, and they think it's because there was actually a lot of water, like a lot of rain that pushed out a lot of this kind of murky water. And then also the water's been like two degrees Celsius warmer than average. And what that does is increases the metabolism of these sharks, and they have to hunt and look for food a little bit more aggressively. So they think that might be part of what's led to this little spate of attacks in Australia. All right. Any questions about the story or about Bull Sharks? It'd be like a – you know how coaches, when they're, like, in hot water, always do, like, make big changes to try to keep their job? Like, they'll fire their offensive coordinator or they'll get a new quarterback or they'll just, like, change it up so they can keep their job a couple more years? Yeah. This is kind of a good, like, hack. Yeah. Who's a coach? Brian Dayball got fired from the New York Giants this year. But imagine he gets his arm bit off by a shark, and then they fire him right after. People would be pissed. Yeah. That's a good point. Kind of a good... I'm worried about losing job. I actually don't go get mauled by an animal. I think the people of New York would be like, he's even more unfit for the job now. They're merciless up there. That's true. Or at least the New York media. Yeah. Life hack from Jeff, though. Everyone write that down. Maybe like. I think it buys you a year or two. If your partner's mad at you, like just go get mauled by a bear and then they kind of have to feel bad for you. You know, that sort of thing. Can't break up with you right after that. Nope. You know what? The other day, Jeff was wearing some corduroy pants that I really liked. And I asked him where he got them. And he said, Quince. And then just literally a few minutes later, he asked me where I got my sunglasses and I said Quince. And I really like that. That we're finding really cool stuff that we really like at Quince. And the thing I like so much about Quince is that getting a good wardrobe that will stand the test of time doesn't have to break the bank. They have premium materials, thoughtful design, and everyday staples. They're easy to wear, easy to rely on, and much cheaper than buying from luxury brands. They really have everything that I would want on my wardrobe. 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You'll save over 40%, and when you use promo code tooth, you'll get an extra 20% off plus a free three-piece towel set. They make an amazing gift, and with a 30-day money-back guarantee, there's no risk. That's TryMiracle.com slash Tooth. Code Tooth at checkout. Thanks to Miracle Made for sponsoring this episode. All right, we're going to go to categories. First category is your favorite pop culture involving Alabama. Roll Tide. I'm going to go with a classic. I'm going Forrest Gump. Oh, that's a good pick. It's a good pick, Jeff. Yeah, and he covers the things you would want from Alabama. It's honestly probably my first real like I'm in Alabama experience in my life. Like the big old trees. What are those type of trees? Cypress trees. Yeah. Cypress trees. And like it's like, oh, Alabama has some cool stuff actually. And then watching him run the football was funny. When he's shrimping. Is he shrimping in Alabama? Shrimp? I think so. Yeah. Tramp. I'm going to go with a movie too I always feel compelled I'm not going to say anything about Forrest Gump Like it, you can like it if you want It's great, good for all you guys I'm going to go with another movie A double feature actually A couple of real classic courtroom dramas First is To Kill a Mockingbird I don't think we really need to say a whole lot About why that's a pretty nifty little story Thanks Harper Lee And then My Cousin Vinny also happens in Alabama And, you know, I think I might like that movie even more. So sue me. Joe Pesci, Gregory Peck, take your pick, which is the sexier of the two. I kind of thought one of you would pick True Romance because Patricia Arquette's characters named Alabama in that one. That's a good pick. Shoot. I picked Con Air because he's trying to get home to Alabama in Con Air. That's where it's going. I thought it was Georgia for some reason, but that's even better somehow. I somehow remembered that because I was like, was his name Alabama? And then I looked it up and I was like, no, he's just trying to get home to Alabama. So Con Air, perfect movie, you know? You know what? Probably my favorite Nick Cage movie besides Raising Arizona. I just should never give anyone any guff for liking Forrest Gump when I ride as hard as I do for Con Air and The Rock I think Forrest Gump a great movie I just kind of don like it anymore but i do think i don think it a bad movie personally sure i just kind of got tired of it where it's like people's favorite movie it won the oscar stuff like that it's like that's a little much maybe yeah but it's i don't know it's fun yeah it's like a good if i was a history teacher i would show my kids that and be like this is what happened if you like are a little hungover or something you don't want to teach that day just put on forrest gump for the 10th time that semester uh all right next category something you do that is needlessly competitive we're all three competitive boys here on tooth and claw but i'm kind of i'm reaching for something that you do that's kind of like why am i being competitive about this i get really competitive when we're out eating and ordering food i always try to find what looks like the best thing and i get that and if anybody else orders that same item i have to change my order it really bothers me to like not be alone at the top of the mountain that's a good one and it really is stupid like it's really dumb that i do that because i want it so bad but i will change my order i actually think you're kind of good at it too you're the number one person who if i'm out to eat with them it's like oh man, I'd love to try a bite of what Mike just ordered. Because you always find something that's not front and center on the menu. Yeah. So yeah, I think you're excelling at that. Just yesterday, me and Cousin Brent were fighting quite a bit about Apple Maps versus the car navigation he put in his car. Yeah. And I was just saying Apple Maps routes are better. and he was like he was being kind of dumb because he kept asking me to navigate and then not following my map and then getting mad at me for the road we were on it's just like i don't know and like every there's like 10 feet of snow out here and he was saying i led him on a road with snow and there's literally every road had snow on i was like i i don't know what to tell you but I did take them on one road that was like impossible to get up. We had to turn around on that one. So it was a, it was like a, I've been saying Apple maps is the best type of thing though. And it's like, I don't care about that at all. Right. You just can't back down at this point. Yeah. Yeah. Mine is one that I do pretty much every road trip I take, but I'll kind of like decide on a time that I think I can make it to my destination. and then even if I have no time crunch if there's nothing like pushing me to be there at that time I'll push myself and I'll really like take quick stops and I'll like get super drowsy and just keep driving because I'm like I gotta be there by five and sometimes I catch myself and I'm like wait I don't have to be there by five I can take a little nap I can do whatever but I get this like competitive spirit with this weird benchmark that I just set for myself. And I do that a lot on road trips. And I'm trying to actually work on that because it's stupid. You know, it's kind of like that, that you did the first time I ever went to San Diego with you. It was like the first time we had ever used the city scooters and is really fun. But then mine didn't have much battery left. And we had to like make it up this super big hill to go back to the house we were staying at. and you were like no don't stop like it'll be fun to see if you can make it or not i was like i don't want to do that that doesn't sound fun to me i just want to find a new scooter with battery and then you ended up taking mine because you wanted to see if it would make it so bad i do that with running out of gas in my car too like if i'm on empty i'll just be like i gotta see if I can make it. And Jesse Ops gets so mad at me. When you didn't have much money at all, you would be on empty 90% of the time. Yeah, I lived on empty. It stresses me out. Yeah, it stressed me out too. And we'd go by gas stations with you on empty and you'd be like, I think I can make it. I think I got it. All right. Quick category here. Your favorite thing that we saw in Indonesia. Go ahead and do favorite three, actually. That's what I told you guys earlier, I think. My top three were the blue Insularis Viper. Just a beautiful blue snake that I had always wanted to see since I learned they existed. Maybe my top reptile target ever. So it's really exciting to see that. Komodo dragons, because as a kid, they were my favorite animal for a while. Just think they're amazing, cool lizards, even though they mostly just lay around. They're so cool. and we got one that like perfectly looked over the water that was just really neat same with the blue viper actually and then the manta rays we we had just an amazing manta ray experience because because of some bad weather we had the park mostly to ourselves and the mantas just were swimming around us and it was so beautiful and peaceful so those are my top three those are my three as well so it's a good category to go first yeah yeah it's like the big three well i thought Maybe the crate would make yours. I would say sea crate over the blue insularis for me, especially just because, like, I got a real rush out of, like, handling it. I thought it looked cooler. I thought the paddle tail was, like, really interesting. Yeah. So I'd take – and I kind of – Allison spotted it, but I was, like, right there with her. So I felt like we kind of spotted it and it was cool. You know what was close to overtaking dragons for me was the cuttlefish that we saw at night that just had this crazy, vibrant electric pattern rippling through it. I just could have stared at it. That whole dive was so cool. I think the Komodo dragon is sweet just because it's one of those things where you're just not going to see a bigger lizard than that. And once you get to the very top of a category, like seeing a cheetah run, it's like, well, that's the fastest land mammal. Yeah. I don't know. There's just something in my primitive monkey brain that gets really excited about those kinds of things. So the dragons were awesome. Charismatic. I'm going to take out Komodo dragons off mine, too, and put in rhinoceros beetles. Oh, yeah. You were stoked about that. Beetles were cool. They were cool. You finally got to live out that fantasy. All right. But really, it's not cooler. This is kind of a new category. I don't know if we've used it before, but I saw it in our category list. what do you think this animal's favorite band would be a bull shark i'm so curious i have my answer jeff's answer is gonna be that's like the one i'm most curious i so i think all sharks are inherently like beautiful animals and they have a certain grace to them so immediately because it's like a stocky aggressive shark thought of like metal or you know something a little harder and more aggressive. But because of the grace element and the beauty element, I went with Turnstile, which I know they're like a very popular heavy metal band right now. I do really like Turnstile. So for me, it made a lot of sense. They combine a lot of kind of melodic stuff with really heavy riffs. So I thought it was a perfect band for a bull shark to be into. I had that exact same line of thinking, but I ended up in a little different spot. so i kind of hear more post rock when i see them move through the water like godspeed or explosions in the sky or something like that so yeah any of those big post rock outfits or what i'm my brain's telling sigiros something like that yeah calmer i like it i'm because they're kind of just like you're not to all these people bull sharks are their favorite sharks are going to be in my comments but yeah they're kind of your average shark you know they're they're a little meat and potatoes so i'm gonna go with gasolina just because that song gets played everywhere i yeah daddy yankee i think of mexico when i think of bull sharks because okay i think they're there and just latin america in general i think they're in lake nicaragua but i'm not even sure about that They are, yeah. Okay. Yeah, and they, in Guatemala, they play Gasolina every single day. So I'm going Gasolina. I think it's like an up-tempo, like I could see biting people with that song playing, you know? Yeah, sure. Yeah. I like it. Yeah, definitely out of the blue. Okay, let's do a couple quick listener questions. this one's from Alaskan Crow who says can Wes explain Barbary lions to me I saw a sad and very likely AI video and now they're all I can think about so Barbary lions were a type of lion a subspecies of lion that existed in like North Africa and maybe Southern Europe for a while they've long been extirpated but I do like if that made you sad I do just want to remind you they were just they're lions they're a subspecies of lion but they're lions so like when people got really upset 10 years ago when there was news that the eastern cougar was extinct it just kind of meant like cougars aren't in the east of the u.s anymore but there's still plenty of cougars out there um it'll be sad when we lose if we lose florida panthers but they're still cougars and that's kind of what happened with barbary lions they're extinct from part of their range but lions are doing okay throughout the rest of their range they're not doing great i do think okay i think i saw the video they're talking about and it does make it seem like barbary lions were like maybe a little bit more or just like a little different than your average life that's not true no it is like when you have an animal that lives in the desert that's a subspecies they often look really different like um gobi brown bears that live in the gobi desert of china and mongolia look very different from brown bears but they're still a brown bear it's still the same species just a subspecies so it's sad don't get me wrong it's sad but it's not like we lost a whole species we lost like in a million years that could have turned into a new species sure yeah it probably would have that's true that's sad that is sad thanks for keeping it sad uh this one's from Dylan. Dylan says, if you could see one animal from L-O-T-R, Lord of the Rings, in real life, what would it be? And then some options. Oliphant, Shelob, Warg, the Eagles, the Felbeast, Bill, the Pony, Jeff, those big-ass rhinos that pulled Grand to the gates of Minas Tirith. Jeff. They said Jeff twice. Nice. What do you guys think? Any beast from Lord of the Rings? the grand pullers are interesting because that was total artistic expression in the movies Tolkien never really explained or described those at all so maybe that is the right choice just to see what those actually looked like you know if we're counting the hobbit I'm taking smog yeah a dragon beat you yeah um if we can't count the hobbit movies then I'll pick a felbeast because it's kind of just like a small dragon. The Felbeasts are what? The Nazgul ride. Balrog I would count as a beast. A beast of fire and flame. I want to see Rosie. Rosie? Sure. She's a beast. More than Gjadriel. Gjadriel. Galadriel? Galadriel? Galadriel? What just happened? Galadriel. She should be Gjadriel. Gjat? Because she's got a... Alright. But let's see. Do we have any thoughts on toe shoes or toe socks? I laughed for this is from Nathan. I laughed for ages, but got a pair of toe socks and they're amazing. I might slowly transition to full time toe shoes. Ooh, toe shoes. Even I don't really like them. I've worn toe socks and they made my toes feel like trapped and weird and too separated. And I feel like shoes would be even worse for me. So I'm not a fan. I think they look weird too. Just going to say it, Nathan. I'm sorry. You guys got any strong feelings? Yeah, we just wore socks with just the big toe slit the other day, and I hated it. But I got to go full foot. I'll try it out. I don't know. I don't have a... I do think they look kind of dumb, but it's like... I think once you can get over that carrying what your shoes look like, it's also kind of cool. So, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's probably something I could get used to. I just haven't, so I'm never comfortable in them. The toe shoes, I'm going to have to really sit down and ponder because I'm thinking very negatively towards them right now. But maybe I shouldn't. I kind of feel like I wouldn't be shocked to see you just show up in toe shoes one day, Mike. It's going to happen. You like fashion risks, you know? I do. This one's from David. It's a great question. If one person had to drive you safely from Montana to Mexico, would you pick Jason Statham or Vin Diesel? Those are your two options. Like, they're both terrible options. Statham, he's the transporter. I'd pick Statham, yeah. I feel like I'd run out of stuff to talk about with Vin Diesel after, like, 15 minutes. But Statham, I feel like I could go for a while. I'd have a hard time not bringing up Paul Walker and saying something bad, too. So, yeah. That'd be tough. It's Vin Diesel or Jason Statham. Yeah. It's not, like, Dominic Toretto or the transporter. it's Vin Diesel or Jason Statham. I think I'll go Vin then. I think Vin actually drives a car. I don't think Jason Statham does. Maybe you're right. Yeah. All right. Let's just close it with that. We're going to do one last category, which is where do bull sharks rank? We're not doing claws because we've already done claws for them, but where do they rank in your shark list? Are they in your top 10? I think they would be from – Jeff had an interesting line of thinking where you said they're a little bit meat and potatoes, but that's like sharks are sweet. And it's the shark that I think of in my brain when I think of sharks. It's not going to be my absolute favorite, of course, but it'd probably be in like the six or seven range. I think they're really, really cool. Whoa, that category, Wes. Six, seven. Do the six, seven category. Are they six, seven, though, is the real question. That should have been the category. Yeah. Are they six, seven? What do you guys think? Let's talk about it. are you kidding me yes according to mike yes they're in that range for me too i'm just gonna piggyback on yours since you just went i think what hasn't beat is um whale sharks great whites thresher sharks oceanic white tips probably caribbean reef sharks maybe but then then we're maybe getting in a bull shark range because they were the first sharks i ever free dove with and it was magical like just having a bunch of bull sharks swimming around me out in the open ocean uh was really cool and in really clear water they're not generally aggressive at all so it was really just a cool experience for me and i thought they were beautiful so yeah they're in my top 10 sharks oh great hammerheads i think i'm gonna put them at like 12 just outside i like the ones with like the saw nose more cool yeah uh threshers goblin i had threshers above them yeah mako i make it was a lot mako and blue sharks too are really pretty this is hard oceanic white this i had them in front of them too what's hard for me is picking between tiger sharks and bull sharks actually i think they're very close for me yeah all right well i think we probably are going to put something at the front of the episode about this but we are about to do a really exciting trip jeff do you want to talk about it for just a quick second yeah we're going to go to spalbard close spalbard yeah what did i say spalbard it's spal with a v fall okay yeah spalbard there you go with national park after dark so yeah we're really excited we've been trying to plan something joint for a while now and this was just a place we all really wanted to go and we all just love being on a boat unfortunately living on a boat does cost a little bit more so it might not be in everyone's range especially in svalbard hopefully we can do some more joint stuff that's more affordable but this is how we're going to kick it off and we're so excited about it yeah really good chance for polar bears walrus some really cool animals up there possible to see northern lights or northern lights woo it's an amazing place everyone that goes there loves it and yeah like jeff said it's an expensive trip because they are like it's an expensive place to go no matter what but um we always offer these like the first spots to our people on patreon so if you are really interested in this trip you can sign up and then cancel later if you want but that's where we'll first be announcing the time to sign up but it's coming up quick after this episode comes out it'll be a matter of days so check it out check out our patreon and get ready because it's going to be really and i i want to say too i think for like where we're going what we're seeing the joint trip aspect it's actually going to be like a really good price for people so for as cheap as we can do it yeah so i i can't I think it'll be amazing I'm excited You're going to have to Jeff You can't just go tomorrow You have to wait a little bit You could take a bunch of drugs And go into a coma I bet you there's There's somewhere that will put me into a coma I could do it I've been wanting to put you in a coma For a while actually How would you do it? Just bark you on the head with a lunch pail Or one of those big like clubs from the cave menus yesterday we went and got like ramen at this like super famous ramen spot the girl walking out of the place she like opened the door too hard and she made such a funny little donk in like a japanese noise though like dong is really cute i love when like noises are like you know what they're doing but it's like different than how we do it That is really funny. That's great. All right. Well, thank you, guys. Thank you, everyone, for listening. We're all going to be back stateside next time we record. So we'll be back in our typical recording environments. All right. Love you. See you. Love you. you