How Iron Man Saved Marvel: David Maisel Shares the Real Story with Sean Callagy

If he doesn't get the yes, there's no MCU, which was the hardest yes I've ever gotten. In fact, I didn't get the yes. They had 5 million to bank and David is talking you're gonna spend 100 million. For a guy that doesn't like spending money. Nobody wanted Thor or Captain America or this thing called Avengers. People would tell me Thor is in the public domain. We don't need you for that. Or Avengers means some UK English spy series. They could have spent 100,000 and blocked us from having Iron Man. I don't make money unless you make money. So give me stock options and market. And then to close it, I said, and you can fire me at any time. Whatever reason, no penalty. I announced Marvel Studios CMBC in 2004 and our stock went down for four years. With Iron Man, we made it a love story with 10 minutes of action. I think that's what Warner Brothers missed is they saw a guy in a robot suit. They saw a robot suit. They didn't see the man inside the suit. The guy who's got the drug problem that woke up in his neighbor's like child's daughter's room. And was in jail. This is Iron Man. Yeah. Who's a comedian on top of it. Not an action star. If we could welcome back to the unblinded stage for the second time. The founder of Marvel Studios, the creator of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. The one and only. Let's rise to our feet and welcome David Maisel. What's here for David? A man that I have the honor and privilege, the honor and privilege of now calling a friend. So thank you, sir. Much great. Absolutely. Thank you. He even knows what drinks that Tink and Bella and Mike like Starbucks and it's always ready in his incredible studio and home and place and things. So David, welcome back to the great state of New Jersey. It really is an honor to be here. And so how are you doing today, brother? I'm doing great. It's a pleasure to be back, Sean. It's last time we did this was back in October, right? So it's been almost six months and so much has happened. I know with everything you're doing and things that I'm up to and you, Sean was the first public speech that I ever did since Selly Marvel. I resisted doing that and doing it with Sean and him making me feel so welcome and understanding the story and the interesting things to talk about and seeing the joy in everybody. Hearing where Marvel came from, it brought me a lot of joy. So I'm so happy to be back doing this and you sort of gave birth to a new side hustle for me, which is... And by the way, you're happy to have David back, say yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. And so, and the side hustle recently took you to some far away parts of the globe with some pretty interesting people. It's the most notable one was the Saudi government has a conference called FII, which is their big investor conference. And there's one in Riyadh, there's one in the States and there's one in Europe. And they asked me to speak at their Miami event, which was about a month ago, five or six weeks ago. And it's the royal family, it's a lot of dignitaries that attend. If there's capital like that, many people surface, not surprisingly. And so I got there and they had me the last day at the end of the conference, which is normally not where you want to be because everyone's flying out to their next thing. And so I said, you know, maybe I'll go the first day instead so people can talk to me in the hallways and things. And they said, no, no, stay the last day, there's a surprise. And what the surprise was is they announced that President Trump was going to close the conference. And so what that meant is him speaking at five, that everyone had to be in their seats and through security at three. And once they announced he's speaking, other people even showed up. And I was in one of five speakers right before him. And it was a group that was amazing. It was David Ellison who just bought Warner Brothers with his father for close to $100 billion. MBS is the ruler of Saudi Arabia's cousin who runs all the video game sector in Saudi Arabia. They had a FIFA with the World Cup coming, Steve Wittkopf, who's our negotiator for all these wars. And I'm missing somebody there and then me. And so what I thought was going to be a casual, fun talk became this very different, formal talk only for about 20 minutes about creating new mythologies, whether there could be a new worldwide mythology in today's age was the question that they wanted me to address. And so that was a great experience. It went well enough where I was invited to speak in June at their FII Europe, which is in Rome this year. Wow. Yeah. How about let's hear for that. Thank you. And so it is an honor to have had you here and to be a small, tiny salt particle in that journey of your impact in speaking. Coach Galgi. Thank you. Thank you, my brother. And so I would love to talk to you for 40 hours. We've had the privilege of spending real time together and this man is such a master. He is so brilliant. And that doesn't feel appropriately described him. What is he masterful at so many things, but the dynamic of innovation, optimization, presence, storytelling, the understanding, his level five listening of people is remarkable. And so and his friends that make great pizza. So this like private room and pizza at home, you know, out there has been truly delightful. And what I'd love you to comment on David, because we're going later tonight. And of course, there's amazingly diverse political viewpoints. And we have already, you know, spoken into all of that to a degree and we'll finish. So, no, not from a political perspective, but how did you enjoy going to see Bruce Springsteen on this tour because a bunch of folks will be there with us tonight. You're in for a treat. Yeah. So what was it later? I would say this, that I've seen him not as much as Michael here 25 times, but probably close to 20. And this is was my favorite concert of all. And I think it was because he's sort of grown into it's the same Bruce voice. You wouldn't never know he's 77 or whatever his age is, but he has become even more strong, like in powerful in how he presents the songs. Bruce isn't there, but the band is amazing. And the saxophonist is incredible. I think it might be someone that clearance picked to replace him or his nephew. Okay. I could see that. And and, you know, all of Bruce's messages are as timely as ever today as they were back in the 70s and 80s. So it just resonated so much more. It's a special concert. And he didn't, you know, he didn't have to do this concert. He announced it, you know, what maybe two month tour basically, because he really wanted to do it. He can feel it. And we do share and, you know, I don't want to consume a lot of our time with this, David. But what, whether or not I agree with everything Bruce is saying, some of it, much of it, all of it and or how he's saying it, what we advocate for so strongly in this space and certainly on the Sean Callaghan blind podcast is for people's freedom to articulate what they believe in. Right. And Bruce does it so utterly masterfully. And there's so many things. And I'm curious to see the reactions of the folks here tonight and our certification partners that are joining us and how even if they disagree with where he stands politically, how can they appreciate his mastery in articulating what he believes in and how attractive, how how unifying. I'm really curious because there's, you know, again, folks on all. Yeah. And the thing I'd say to that is he you'll hear him tonight, but the things he talks about are not really political. They're common shared values of being an American. So things like intelligence and common sense and empathy, you know, things that shouldn't be politicized. They should just be traits that we all try to live in our lives as best as we can and what America stands for around the world a bit. You know, so as you said, when there's difference of opinions on details and on policies and things like that, there normally is a unifying agreement on trying to make everyone's life here better and safer and Prince and shared values that you just teach your kids and that we all, you know, would love to live up to and finding that shared agreement is so and it's true in negotiations and building a business. There's always people who don't see your vision or they disagree with it even and you instead of walking away, you find that point of shared shared thoughts or shared assumptions and normally once that gets to that level, the connection becomes closer and it doesn't always work, but it can sometimes, you know, work to whatever you're trying to achieve in that business transaction or what you need from somebody to get a yes. Well, amen to that brother. We always honor source here. So and I think this is a great transition into, you know, a next section and be at the beginning, but the meaningful work that you did with Marvel before I do, which one on our Dan Fleischman, here, we don't know each other without Dan and Mike Vesuvio for being such an amazing friend and co-creator and all 100%. So thank you. Let's hear for Dan and Mike. And then so as you're sharing, I said what really landed for me, you know, our discussion of Bruce is how it's not not what you had to begin to think about when you stepped into the world of Marvel. Mm hmm. You know, and I believe correct or wrong that they were Marvel was selling 5000 Iron Man comics per month. Just think of what would if you would have thought the number Marvel was selling per month of Iron Man when the Iron Man before the Iron Man movies are made. But just a few years before, if you would have thought it was a lot more than 5000 comics a month, say yes, me too. I would have. Somebody asked me, hey, how many Iron Man comics a month you think Marvel was selling? I don't know. My gut reaction might have been 100,000 a month, right? You know, something like that. So so the only thing that reached that level back then was X men and Spider-Man's because of the movies. So so you have this this this property, this ecosystem of 5000 a month. And so obviously, if people are reading Iron Man comics monthly, they have a pretty deep love for Iron Man and a pretty clear perspective on what Iron Man should be to them. And now you're going to decide what movie to make and you're stepping in and you have to build something for Marvel. How do you select Iron Man? How do you take something that only 5000 people per month are reading? Take this to make money, honor these folks, not make them enemies. So and I know we told a lot of this story before, but maybe let's start there, you know, or half a step back from there. Yeah, this is your job now. You're being brought in. You have an idea or it's about to be your job. Please take us back. Yeah, and I'll start with the point where, you know, there was a whole process that Sean and I discussed last time of where the idea came for the MCU. You know, now the word universe cinematic universe is used a lot. And but that didn't exist back then, you know, and the studios made the movies and if you owned IP, you license it to the studios and they would spend the 200 million to make the movie and and they'd have full creative control and they'd keep 98 percent of the profits. Can I just like make sure this is landing for everybody? So David, am I hearing you correctly that what would happen is and this was Spider-Man Spider-Man to Sony. Yeah. And X-Men to Fox. Yeah. And I guess this X-Men to Fox and this would have also been in on the DC side. This would have been the original Batman movie. I mean, DC wasn't making the Batman movie. Am I correct or not? Correct. On DC in the Dark Light trilogy. Yeah. They they did make the movie. I mean, going back to Michael Keaton, the original movie, was that a licensed no, no, they owned because Warner Brothers owns DC. Got it. So they were now Marvel. I sold to Disney. So it's similar to where DC was with Warner Brothers. There's the capabilities and capital were there. So but so with Marvel, though, at that point, they're licensing out X-Men. They're licensing out Spider-Man. And what they were saying is they were going to make relatively little money after all the things and they had very little creative control. Am I hearing that correctly? Exactly. And and because they would license to different studios, those properties were were siloed in each of those studios. So you couldn't bring the characters together and create an Avengers movie or create a connected universe. And so the big vision was as a Marvel fan and as somebody who wanted to make big movies and somebody who wanted them to make money, that the way to do it would be to get the rights back as much as possible, take the characters that had not been licensed at that time. Nobody wanted Thor or Captain America or this thing called Avengers. You know, people would tell me Thor is in the public domain. You know, we don't need you for that. Or Avengers means some UK English spy series. You know, they didn't quite get it. And so that was great because I had those properties to work with. Iron Man was actually at Warner Brothers for about eight, nine years as a license deal for like $50,000 they paid. And they never thought it was worthy to make it into a movie. OK. And they didn't see it. They people ask me about that, but they just let it sit there. So eventually they let the rights run out. Even after I announced Marvel Studios, they could have spent 100,000 and blocked us from having Iron Man. Right. They could have, you know, sometimes you want to play offense. Sometimes you want to play defense. And if they had put on their defense hat for a while, they might think, oh, I don't really want to make an Iron Man movie, but we'll delay David from having it for five years or 10 years, you know, and that would have been a smart chess move for them. But the luckily they didn't and got it back. And then, you know, the idea of a comic book company making a hundred million dollar plus movie was was heresy at the time was no one no one did that. And frankly, they don't still like Barbie is owned by Mattel, but they licensed it to Warner Brothers. So they didn't get much profit from the movie. They got, you know, they they got toy sales. Maybe a higher degree of Barbie sales that year or afterwards. In the same way we get higher Spider-Man toy sales after a Sony movie. But the the zero based thinking, which took a lot of work and studying, you know, up into when I was 32 at this time. So it was, you know, school and graduate school and almost eight, nine years of working and consulting and then in Hollywood at the studio, Disney and the talent agencies soaking up information to get the inspiration finally to, which was over a weekend that way. Wow. If Marvel controlled its characters, it's a natural universe. You get to know the characters. You want to see them in every movie. You want to stay involved with the plot. So if one movie works like Iron Man, instead of just two sequels, like most films, there's a hundred sequels or quasi sequels. And that asymmetrical risk reward was incredibly attractive as a as a business and incredibly the idea of connecting the characters as a fan was incredibly attractive as a creative thing to do. And that all went into convincing a man named Mike Perlmutter to at least give me a shot, right, at coming into Marvel, which was the hardest yes I've ever gotten. Right. In fact, I didn't get the yes. In fact, my meeting. We did. Can you contextualize who is Ike? Ike Perlmutter at the time was already a billionaire. He's a tough is really guy from the Mossad war in 67. But he was a turnaround guy. He had famously bought Remington when it was bankrupt and turned it around, things like that. And he acquired Marvel in 1999 out of bankruptcy court for like 30 million dollars. Right. So he had good vision on that. But he really cared about selling toys and he doesn't like to spend money. And he's a very difficult guy to work with. But he and I fortunately have a great relationship and it helps when you make somebody a lot of money, but it was a lot to get there. In fact, once I had the inspiration for Marvel doing its movies. And just so acquire for 30 million and then then he took a public again. And at the time I met him, it was about 100 million market cap on the back of the Spider-Man license and things like that. And toys 30 million to 100 million market cap and then sold to Disney for four billion. Yeah, really 10 billion without with the stock with stock, 10 billion, four billion cash about seven years later. Yeah. 10 billion years later. Can we hear for that? Talk about a semester return. So, though, though, I did speak to Bob Iger last week and I introduced a friend to him. Do you guys know Bob Iger is? Yeah. Yes, who is Bob Iger? He's the CEO of Disney and he was actually my boss back in 96 97. So I knew him well and I love Disney. Not as much as Sean, but close to Sean. And I do love Disney. And so when I decided to sell Marvel, now we're fast forwarding, I didn't shop it to any other studio. I just went right to Bob had a secret meeting with him and within an hour we came up with a deal. And because he gave us stock legally, we were a public company. You have to shop it to get the best price for shareholders. But what I learned is if you have something that's subjectively valued like stock, the board can make a decision that that's the best thing to do. And having worked at Disney, I knew the stock at $25 was severely undervalued and that it was at least a double when the economy recovered in 2010. Now it's, you know, it's plateaued for the last 10 years, but it reached 200. Now it's at like 110. So there was an arbitrage there too. And it also allowed Ike to be liquid where he was a liquid. He owns 60 percent of Marvel, the public company. But all that being said, the funny story I was going to tell is I was at a museum in Angala and I introduced a friend of mine to Bob and I said, this is the man I sold my company to. And he said, well, actually I stole it. I was like, geez, you don't have to say that. But I mean, just to let this land for a second, company quieted a bankruptcy for 30 million cuts, 100 million market cap and then sold for 10 billion. Like that is innovative, optimized value multiplication. And in the beginning, how crazy did everybody think you were? You know, we had stories of Walt Disney and Disney's folly and making Snow White and then Disney's crazy to build Disneyland. But people called you crazy as well. Yeah. And it's it's hard to fathom that now because it seems obvious, right? With Marvel looking back. But the only reason I got the chance to do this in retrospect is that it wasn't because of my resume at the time. I had never made a movie before. I was smart, had a good. And like imagine selling this. Yeah, I'm a Harvard MBA, which is you David, correct? I've never made a movie before. But now I think you should create like Marvel studios and I never created a studio either. So I never made a movie. I've never created a studio. Right. And I never raised money, never raised money. And I care this extremely masterful, difficult person who doesn't like to spend money, but let's go build a studio. And then exactly. And so I he actually my meeting with Ike funny enough was at Mar-a-Lago in 2003. And Ike was and still is what in President Trump's two or three best friends, social friends. And I went to meet have lunch with Ike, but a third person joined us for two hours, which was Donald Trump. And the reason he joined at the time wasn't was purely because he was about to do apprentice and enter the Hollywood world. And he knew Ike had some young kid coming talking about Hollywood. And so it was, it was a pretty amazing lunch. And it was going nowhere. I pitched this, it was, it was going nowhere. You know, I didn't quite understand the perspective, which is so important to get a yes of where the person is coming from and their values and, and what their trigger points could be. I kept saying things that were repulsive. Like you're going to spend money. You're going to spend a hundred million, even though you only have five million in the bank account. And we're going because this is right. We're in the world of yes, causing which is to cause innovation optimization. They had five million in the bank and David is talking, you're going to spend a hundred million for a guy that doesn't like spending money. Yes, please. You know, you have to use both sides of the paper, you know, and reuse your paper clips and doesn't like risk. Didn't want popcorn at the premier of Iron Man. So, so anyways, it's, but you know, understanding that your partner, understanding the person is so important in social, in your personal life and in business life. And I had not realized it wasn't very public at that point about Ike's become much more of a known figure because he became the second biggest owner of, of Disney and because of his friendship now with President Trump. But the, so it was going nowhere. In fact, I was going backwards, you know, and I kept talking about Hollywood, which rightfully nobody should trust, right? Because you messed in Hollywood, your money's normally gone and there's games and there's a lot of people there with egos and a little bit of narcissistic type of attitudes. It's, it's definitely a strange town. And so here comes a Hollywood person pitching on, on risking money. It was just really not going anywhere. What I realized is luckily that I was dead in the water. So I threw out one last offer that he couldn't say no to. And Trump was witness to this. And to this day. Crazy story. If you like, this is a crazy story. Say yes. Like if you've seen a Marvel movie, say yes. If he doesn't get the yes, there's no MCU. Yeah, there's no MCU. Yeah. There's no Avengers because he would have licensed the properties out over the next six months or a year. And those deals are in perpetuity unless the other party volunteers to give it back. So I said, listen, just hire me. If you've been to Disney, Florida, there are no Marvel characters. Right. But there are in California because Marvel licensed the characters to universal. Yes. East of the Mississippi. You got it. And so it's John has the best memory of anyone I've ever met. No, thank you. Thank you. And so, yeah. So when we went to, I took Selena Disneyland, Florida, and she actually noticed this. So we were in, I'm sorry, Disneyland, California. And we saw Spider-Man and she actually loves Spider-Man. And we went this time to Disney World. Yes. And her cousin is a crazy Spider-Man fan. He was coming and she's like, Kevin, so excited to see Spider-Man. I said, well, honey, he's not in Disney World, Florida. And she's like, why? He's in Disneyland in California. And so I began to discuss with my four year, 11 month and 30 day old, the day before her birthday, daughter, licensing deals between studios and, but yes, back to you. And it's even worse because Universal's theme park right next to Disney World has it in Orlando. And so every time now Disney makes a Marvel movie, they're making people want to go to their competitors theme park. It's a weird thing. The. Yeah. It's and so what I said, I is hire me, give me a chance to show you what I can do. I know he doesn't at that point, I picked up. He doesn't want to pay money for things. I said, pay me a very small salary just so I can pay my rent. And I don't make money unless you make money. So give me stock options at market. And then to close it, I said, and you can fire me at any time. Whatever reason, no penalty. So none of this for cause, not for cause. It was like he literally to this day says, I couldn't say no to that. I had a free option to look at you and I don't pay you unless you make me more wealthy. And I can fire you. Unbelievable. So that's how I got in. And he almost fired me at least eight times. Six years. And I was. How soon was the first one? Like, so you started it probably within a month. Was it paper clips and paper? No, it would be. It would be my passion and tenacity and him wanting me to do have other priorities in the company than the studio, which for the first year. I I took seriously and, you know, realized I had to sort of earn my stripes. It was my board of directors was a bunch of 70 and 80 year old turnaround guys, you know, bankruptcy guys. So and then. But I remember every board meeting. I would raise the studio and the second time I was got fired when when I was told, don't ever talk about a movie studio again at a board meeting or you're never going to be invited again unless we have zero risk and all the upside. Which doesn't normally happen in business, right? So that was and then I scurried for a year or two. Luckily, there was a bond bubble in 2004. And so I got a deal with a. For 525 million of debt financing. So we kept all the equity. That's unbelievable. Without with great terms that I can the board can say no to. No non recourse, no collateral. Now to speak of. So. We love movies. We love the power of story. But what you're hearing from David right now is how critically important it is to understand money and value. Yeah. And the innovative mastery of all the different ways to share and look at value. And if we're uncomfortable at these diverse areas of mastery, we're not going to achieve the things, which is as a footnote for everybody. If that's not your mastery, you're not David, you're not not only Harvard MBA, Harvard and Harvard didn't make David Harvard, I'm sure taught David some things, but this is a man who developed the muscle, the skill of discerning value. Being creative, which are going to ask some questions about how, why, but while it's not David yet in your pocket, Athena, everybody out here. You can certainly masterfully up level where you are to begin to think of like, Hey, if I was David Mays L and I'm looking at this thing through the prism of Marvel, what are 10 different ways I could assess this ecosystem merger to create unique shares of value. If these people don't want to write a check and I really want this to happen, or if they should write a check and they're not seeing it, how can we communicate about it? Use the tools that way. Is that landing? If it is, say yes. Okay. So, so back to you, David, what I'd love to get to in a few minutes, if you wouldn't mind, is a powerful question about all of this. I'd love you to finish this point, but about how much you might be undervaluing, undervaluing yourself in some of this, because something dawned on me. And let me go to it and then we can go back if we need to. It's this. So you took this property, this, what you saw to be a potential cinematic universe. But I wonder, and has anybody ever asked this question? Could you have taken any number of properties and done this? Like how much of this was your mastery as visionary of the complete cinematic universe and what you then did once you made that decision? Like we're going to take this and make it a cinematic universe because Tony Stark in the Iron Man comics wasn't Robert Downey Jr. You did that. And I didn't think, the last time we spoke and I think. And Robert. And Robert, right. And Robert. Right. And, you know, pepper wasn't, went to Paltrow, right? And so, and I know you're an incredibly humble man. And I think you're at times a falsely modest man, meaning you diminish your accomplishments, but it just dawned on me. Yeah, like that was really interesting. But it was so interesting that it was in bankruptcy. The Marvel. And Sean knows there's an article right outside my office from the New York Times in 2007, a year before Iron Man came out. Talking about all the reasons Marvel Studios would fail. And so I leave that right by my office to remind me of that, that era. In fact, I announced Marvel Studios on CNBC in 2004 and our stock went down for four years. And how long? Yeah. How long? How long? Yes. And it was worse for me because, as I mentioned, all my upside was stock options that were now under market for four years. So. And, but, you know, Ike and I talked about this. And once I started showing what I could do, and he got confidence, he ended up buying back a third of the company at that cheap price, which was very valuable when we sold it to Disney. So it was taking lemonade and making lemons from it, you know, having faith in situation instead of getting depressed. If your stock goes down, if you really believe in the fundamentals of an investment, that's the time like Warren Buffett would say, were you, you buy it on sale, you know, from where it was. And so we bought back Marvel stock on sale. But to your question, it's a really good one. Sean, and I think. I don't believe any group of IP, no matter how talented the producer or the vision areas can become what Marvel became a cinematic universe. It there's elements that need to be in it. And I like to combine analytics with creativity. And this is important point because in my specter of Hollywood, you. As a Harvard MBA, you are viewed as the suit, as the business. And if you talk creative, you're out of your, your arena. And if you're a creative person, and you talk about business, you're like diminishing your creative magic that people might trust in you. I love both. And I was known because I came front with my Harvard MBA and I got my first job because of that with Mike Ovitz as that guy, right? The business guy. And in fact, when I was at Disney, I was with Kevin Mayer, our mutual friend in corporate development and strategic planning, right? And I knew that creatively was merely where I passion was. And the only way I could do both analytics and creative was to have my own studio and make myself chairman. So the reason I had the thought to do Marvel studios. Was I wanted to solve that puzzle. And then secondly, I knew I could try to become studio chairman. They're the only people that can be whatever they want to do because they're the boss. And I could work my way up one of the six studios, but that would take 20 years. And more importantly, I would have lost my soul. I would have had to become a different person. And Marvel was. A cocoon for me where I had my, you know, I could, I could play as studio chairman and not change the playfulness and the way I wanted to be personality wise. So when I think about universes, Marvel, I didn't have to look at a second one because I just instinctively saw they live in the same universe in the comics. It, these characters are so deep in terms of who they are, even outside of being superheroes. That there was, and it was a combination that the movies would be new to most 99% of the world. So they discover it and discovery is so enjoyable for people. They discover with their friends or their kids or their parents. But there's a legacy that it's built on so that people realize, wow, there's like gravitas to it and stuff I can geek out on and go into. So it had that, that great combination of legacy, but still new to people and a natural universe. And, you know, after Marvel, I quickly found something else. I thought could be not a universe, but elevate IP to a point that people would be surprised by. And that was with all things angry birds. And at the time, it was just those dots on the screen and, and, um, went to the owners and they were about to license the movie. I said, no, no, we'll make it. And they had so much cash from the game that raising money there was easy. They just had treasury cash to use for about 75 million. And it was fun to invent a mythology. And, um, everyone thought that movie was going to fail because in 2016 when it came out, angry birds had collapsed in popularity. Um, they didn't navigate going from paid games to free games on the way other competitors did. And the brand wasn't cool anymore. And so that for me was gratifying because it was another surprise and, and doing it again. But then after 2016, um, and actually after the sale of Marvel, I got approached with everything and okay, can you help us with this to become a universe? And, um, and said no to everything because it didn't meet what I really thought it would be. Um, and then I was fortunate, which we can get into later to, um, find something that James Cameron really loved in my favorite comic book artist, um, who I collected and when James Cameron stepped aside, I was able to grab it and that's what I'm working on now. So you have to have the fundamental pieces in place, but then it's, it's a lot of decisions and a lot of vision that, um, that have to be done. And it's not as complicated as Elon's spaceships, which, you know, he, he famously talks to that there's like 20,000 things that have to go right on any space launch and, or, and if one of them doesn't, the whole thing falls apart and you know, it's not as complicated as that, but to go from the IP to something that's a new worldwide mythology or something that people really love in that deep way, um, requires a lot, a lot of decisions. And one of them you raised earlier, like how do you take something that's got dedicated fans and make them happy at the same time, bring it to the world. And so with Iron Man, we made it a love story with 10 minutes of action. And it was like an old fashioned love story where like from the fifties where two people love each other, but they won't admit it. You know, Robert Downey and Guendeth Paltrow. Um, and you're, you're an audience saying kiss already, you know, and they, and they don't. Um, and, and adding in humor with letting, we made it, I made a decision that had really never been done in Hollywood. You, you freeze a script. You freeze a script before you shoot the movie because every day on a live action movie is four or $500,000. And so if you miss the day, you have to spend another half a million. And there's unions, there's rules. And so you don't want, you want people changing dialogue. Um, cause that could screw things up, but I left an hour a day in the schedule for Robert to improvise. And I'd say at least half of the comedy in Iron Man came out of him riffing and saying funny things. Um, it was dangerous. Um, and, um, cause once an actor starts doing that, um, they keep wanting to do that and you could miss your days unless their lines get taken, you know. Um, so the case that so how, you know, in that frame, you, you have Iron Man, you have these properties and you're making a superhero movie that you turn into a love story with 10 minutes of action. Right. Um, I could only afford 10 minutes as well. So, but now in this, this conversation of innovation optimization, how do you decide to do that? You know, what, what was it? It, you know, if a hundred people look at Iron Man in the comics, um, they're not a million people look at Iron Man in the comics, they're not making the movie you made. Right. And this is one of the greatest superhero movies ever made by so many critical reviews, financial success, all of it. How do you get to that? And, and I'll get in a second. There's a question before that, which is why Iron Man is the first movie. Yeah, please. And that was also, uh, I'm proud of as, as a vision because a lot of people recommended, you know, you have one shot and that go with Avengers, goes your biggest commercial property and not rely on just one superhero, you know, bring everyone together than ever. Some people will like Iron Man. Some people like Thor, you know, you attract more people. And for again, for jumping in, I'm just like one really contextualized. So what I'm hearing you say and what you're hearing David say, I believe is that he opted not to go with the ecosystem at Marvel of Avengers with a hundred thousand people, um, reading monthly, but one with one with 5,000. And this is landing on me. I can't even imagine the feedback you were getting for that. Like, Oh, we had many debates internally. Yeah. Many debates with the board and with my team. Um, but the feeling was number was best to introduce the characters in their own movies so that you have two hours to get to know them rather than if they're in a two hour movie together, you maybe have 15 minutes with each of them really. And so if people fell in love with Tony Stark with, with Thor, with Captain America, with Hulk, then you bring them together in the Avengers. There's so much more, um, ties to the customer and you're giving them something to look forward to. They love the characters individually. The risk with that is if Iron Man failed, we're not sitting here today. So it was a, you know, it was easier for me because I, I knew. That my mother and my girlfriend at the time, they would not go see just the regular superhero movie, you know, comics movie. Um, so, but I knew Tony Stark was such an interesting character outside of the suit of armor and think, I think that's what Warner Brothers missed is they saw a guy in a robot suit over, they saw a robot suit. They didn't see the man inside the suit and it's the man inside the suit, um, which was so, so important and such a compelling story. Um, and, and so we went with Iron Man and then in making these decisions, um, about how to both show the movie and market the movie and the casting. Um, that's where when you talk about instinct and combining with, with when you're focused on something that you're passionate about and you don't deviate, somehow you, you get so much information because you're looking at everything from the prism of what your goal is. And so when I quit McKinsey and came to Hollywood, all I did for the next six, seven years was think about how to make another Star Wars. Right. Yeah. That's what inspired me. Um, and, and how can I do it in a way that wasn't just three movies at the time, but that could be many, many movies. And I would just soak all that information up, you know, little things like I was able to do a Broadway show before I did Marvel and I had a lot of success. I won the Tony Award for best musical in 1999 for my first Broadway show. And what is a Harvard MBA winning Tony Awards, creating the Marvel Cinematic Universe, right? And then taking a video game that was incredibly popular, then it failed and turning it into an incredibly commercially successful movie, Angry Birds. And there's like dot, dot, dot and much more. Yeah. And one of the things I learned from Broadway, Broadway is a great medium because you take it on the road outside of New York. We went to Boston, we went to Chicago, we went to LA and you're changing the show every night and you're seeing audience reaction right away, right? And the reviewers have a pact, which I guess isn't legally binding, that they won't review the movie until you say it's opening night in New York. So even have another month or two in New York to fine tune the show before the powerful reviewers come in. And I realized halfway through this road trip with the show that the beginning had to be amazing and the end had to be incredible. So everything in between has to be good. But when people, if they don't feel into it, if you don't open their minds to their experience in the beginning and if you don't close with something that causes them to literally leave with excitement as they're leaving the theater, you're missing a huge opportunity. So when I went into Iron Man, I really worked on the first scene and the last scene and we have the first scene, he gets blown up. So there's a dramatic thing that happens. How do you know that? I mean, I couldn't agree more. But how did you know that? It was observation and testing combined with then thinking through psychology, why that would be the case. And I realized it's the case with everything. You meet somebody new. If the first couple of minutes are just person's head down and nothing happening. It's hard to recover from that. And it's always good to end with something. Even all of us go into long business meetings and, you know, it could be two hours long or an hour long with somebody and, and it can get into topics and have a different energy flow. But then at the end, if you're like full of energy and talking about, you know, referring back to things that they said, showing them that you listened and seeing them as a person and talking about future things, that's what people remember. And so it's experience testing, trying to understand why. And then trying to, and that creates what sometimes people call instinct. Like when people ask me, why did you have the vision for Marvel when no one else had it? I don't really, I can't really answer that, but it wasn't just like I sat in an ivory tower and the idea popped in my head. I had worked so hard learning the industry. And that gave me a better chance to have the vision. And, and the, you know, the things that people would say are, are, are very hard to get. And then once you have the vision, that's an asset to stay with it and make sure you don't get distracted or give it up too soon. Here, I knew people would be walking into Iron Man, I felt, thinking, another superhero movie, how's this going to be different? You know, who is this Marvel studio is making their own movie? So when we started with AC DC, back in black, and that rock and roll was going, and the people just had, they hadn't heard that before in the beginning of a movie. And then we ended, if you remember, with him surprising everybody, including comic fans, where Tony Stark never says he's Iron Man. He keeps that Iron Man's is like bodyguard. He says, I am Iron Man. And that just threw everyone for a loop. And then we end with Ozzy Osbourne, I am Iron Man. And people are dancing out of the theater. And, and then we gave a post credit scene too, with Sam Jackson saying the Avengers Initiative. That was just inspiration that Kevin Feige, my president of production had actually, after we finished shooting. And we had planned it, and we had to call all the actors back for half a day and shoot that scene. And that was the birth of, which is now common with a lot of films, having some special scene at the end. So it's a, it's a, I'm very proud of the vision and it's been fun to replicate it. Broadway was another sort of early version of that to fine tune that show. We were an underdog there too. For best musical that year. I never thought it would win that. But. And which show was that David? It was a show called Fosse, which is Bob Fosse's great choreographer. And it was his life told. How cool is David? Make the sound of how cool David is. It's crazy. Do you ever wake up and be like, I'm cool. That's why I love sitting here with you, Sean. It makes it, it gives me. The, I, I, I told this to Sean, I'm not going to mention names here, but a very prominent Hollywood famous Titan producer, who's a very tough man is known for losing this temper and being a bit of a, no better word to say than asshole. Sometimes he got to know me and he would say to me, David, you're you. So don't be a hundred percent me, but try to be 10% me. And it's. I'm happy I was able to achieve what I did without becoming that. Because it's at the end of the day, how you feel when you go to sleep at night and wake up in the morning is priceless. And, but the regarding Fosse, if you haven't seen a movie called All That Jazz, check it out. And that was the inspiration for that show. And, and yeah, it's a very good question. It's, there's so many decisions that have to get made. The casting of Robert, who had just been in jail a year and a half ago for very heavy drug usage. He even woke up in his neighbors, one of their bedrooms one night. You know, I think his neighbors child. Yeah, I was gonna. I'll say you imagine it. Imagine going to all these people again, don't like to spend money. Don't like risk. You know, yeah, the guy who's got the drug problem that woke up at his neighbors, like child, daughter's room and was in jail. Yeah. And is in jail. This is Iron Man. Yeah. Who's a comedian on top of it. Not an action star. Like, dude, like, and what was it about? You know, it was, it was, um, seeing a movie called Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. And if you watch that film, he did before Iron Man, you see the glimmers of Tony Stark in that character. And, and then knowing that Robert, who had won an Academy Award for, I think, Chaplin, um, that having an Academy Award winner in a superhero movie would create an open mind with people. Like, why is he doing that? You know, a guy check it out. But also I knew that also Robert is, I like actors that are authentically playing roles that fit their life. And he is Tony Stark. I mean, he's a brilliant guy. He's cocky as hell. He's the kind of guy that every man wants to be best friends with him. And most women want to marry. And he, you know, he's a. The, the jerk that you love no matter what, you know, and that's who he is till he has some bit of a redemption as the movies progress. Um, and so, and I saw the passion in his eyes and he was hungry because he had not really had a commercial success, you know, and so he was going to give everything to it. And it made it easier that he would take very little money because, um, you know, I promised he'd make money on the sequels and he's now the highest paid actor of the past 15 years. Um, integrity, right? So it's not, so with David saying it's not that he's like, yeah, I took advantage of him. No, no, like everybody won. Yes. Like everybody won huge and, and, and another remarkable piece of this story. And this is value to sermon innovation optimization, the magic of yes, causing are you receiving value from this conversation team? Yeah. So how about this? Um, if you mind speaking into this, we've had this conversation. Yeah. David is the profitability of Iron Man versus, um, the Dark Knight movies that were very successful, right? Maybe even out gross, but could you share some of that? So not only do you have this beautiful creativity, but it's how do you make money doing it? And again, Robert Downey Jr. One, like people won all over the place, but watch this, please. No, it's, um, I am also very competitive. So when I'm running Marvel, I wanted to really win. And, um, to show you how, how delusional this thinking was, even my board had no faith in Iron Man movie the day it opened. So we had a board meeting in LA, which was the first one ever. Marvel's New York based. Um, and the chairman of the board, uh, came up to me and said, I want you to know that if the movie doesn't do well, it's okay. We'll make money on the toys. And the board has voted that if the movie breaks even, you get a half a million dollar bonus. So their bar was breaking even, right? Which was not a high bar, um, in this situation, but Michael, what were you thinking and feeling in that moment? I was thinking, yeah, thank you. It's like, I'm going to go spend it. No, it was, um, I was a combination. It was like, really? You don't have the trust in it to thank you for that, to it's sort of charming. Like that's, that they thought about that, right? That they thought about, uh, it was a very human touch, like trying to calm, to set my expectations. It was most boards don't necessarily think about that too much. Um, so it was a funny element and the, um, my goal was to beat DC. And I love comics by the way. I'm a big DC fan too. Um, but at the time they were my competition and I knew, and I wanted to, I was very afraid of trying to get surmount them and I wanted to beat Dark Knight. But we didn't. Iron Man did like 600 million and change and Dark Knight, which was a great movie. Chris Nolan, Christian Bale did over a billion. However, most people look at the wrong information in things and, and asking, what's the real bottom line? Um, you know, you can, you can get distracted by sound bites or box office numbers, which people still, it's just report box office, not profitability. But if you look at the numbers, they did a billion plus. We did 600 million roughly. They spent 200 and I think 25 or 30 million on Dark Knight. We spent 109 million. But wait, there's more. Yeah. Third, second, they gave 30% gross, meaning off the top of the revenues, 30% independent of profitability went to the director and actor, 15% to Christian Christian Bale and 15% to Chris Nolan. I gave 0% to my actors or my director for Iron Man. And then to make it worse, I kept 100% of the equity. So we had 100% of the upside DC, which I still don't understand why sold off half of Batman to a essentially financing entity called legendary studios for a cost, you know, and so you just do the math on those three things. We made a significant amount more money on that, on the movie. And then we also, I did it and we did it in a way where we controlled Marvel controlled the property. So we could make Iron Man again quicker. We could do whatever we want. We didn't have a director who was final cut, they say, who's got the final say on the movie and normally if the movie does well, a final say on how the characters are used. So in our case, we had a complete freedom to use the characters, which became the MCU. In DC case, they got delayed many years trying to keep Chris Nolan part of the family, understandably, and that delayed when they were able to do Justice League and things like that. So it gave us more time to build our base. So a lot of those things, I still wanted to win the box office thing, but because then I'd go out, you know, the next week and somebody would say, they killed you at the box office. And they'd say, yeah, but and no one really wanted to listen to all the buzz. But just so my takeaway for everybody out there is David is focused not only on the magic of the storytelling arc, like lessons for the moment is we all talk about the power storytelling. So if anybody in this room is listening to this or anybody is listening to the podcast, the president of OK, cool, like made movies, great storyteller, we all need to be great storytellers. Every ecosystem merger, every great sale is on the other side of an integrity masterfully told story. If that's landing, please say yes. And all yeses are not created equally. David is in the micro, micro distinctive detail of masterfully creating outcomes that were economically profitable, that created level five disposable income. And that's a really profitable ventures. This man wins. He's not just a creative master. He's both. He's a value driven, discernment, integrist master. Heck, they sold it for 10 billion. The guy that put it for 10 billion, Bob Iger says, thanks, David, I stole it from you. Now, I don't know that's the case. I don't think it was stolen, but it was a fair deal where Disney won and David and Marvel. I agree with that. And I think that was my perspective. You want life is long. You want to have a reputation that if someone makes a deal with you, it pays off for them. And so you don't ask, or at least I didn't ask for everything. And it's, I'm proud that he said that because it, you know. Integrity. Let's hear from David. Can I, please, I cut you off. Please finish. Oh, the last thing I'd say, I guess, is the stuff you talked about in terms of being focused on the details from the business spectrum, from a zero based approach to a business like I was doing with Hollywood to, you know, dealing with people and getting a yes or at least a chance from them. We also had fun creatively with that. And it was at a great Kevin Feige who runs the company now was my president of production. I was his boss. And I recognize, I'm really proud of recognizing his talent because he was just a junior kid in the hallways when I got there. And I had to support me without getting into details about changing some of the personnel at Marvel. And so I needed a new, I was elevated to chairman and I needed a president of production and I did a battlefield promotion of Kevin. And when I sold the company and put him in charge to run it so I could do other things and he's done a great job over the past decade plus. So he and I would look at every second of the movie and how to plus it was our term. There's got to be a way to plus it. We never would pat ourselves in the back a lot. It would be like, what can we do? And just had a blast with, you know, there's a cave sequence in Iron Man if you watch it again where he's in that cave with one other guy and that's where he builds the first suit. That scene is almost 20 minutes long in the movie. And you know, we looked at a one minute version, a five minute version, a 10 minute version, a 15 minute, 20 minute. Like we tried all these things out to see what was better and we wanted to make it less so the movie wouldn't be so long. But that, you know, that felt like the best way to do it. And then the reveal the Iron Man suit was a big decision. And we had a lot of disagreements with people. People said you need to show it in the first half hour. You know, people don't want to wait an hour to see it. But we don't reveal it till pretty much the, into act two. And that was a risk. But we felt at the time that, and I strongly felt this, that the first act of Iron Man is the only place where you see Robert Downey, you see Tony Stark before he's Iron Man. In all his proud and unproud things. And that's the chance for people to connect with Tony Stark. And if we don't have that connection, we don't have the foundation for the rest of the years and years of the MCU. And that people wouldn't leave the theater. And one of the nice things about theaters is very rarely do people get up and leave. So whether they like it or not, they're going to see the Iron Man suit a little bit later. And at that point, they've been looking forward to it. It's even more exciting because they had their way, you know? And so decisions like that, we were equally sort of very detail focused on. And that's the same thing for your influence, all the conversation you're having out there. And is it okay if I ask a question to the audience? And there's two other quick categories I want to touch on. Please, anything. So I think this has some relevance and fun for conversation. Dave and I were having. Is anybody here a Batman fan? If you are, say yes. Okay. And only please weigh in on this if you have familiarity with what I'm sharing. Right? So who is your favorite Batman actor? Don't say it. A, please don't answer yet. A. Michael Keaton. B. Val Kilmer. C, what's not saying Val Kilmer. A. Michael Keaton. B. Christian Bale. C. Ben Affleck. And D, who is the, I'm forgiving, the carton of the current in the new. Robert Paxton, right? So. And famously George Clooney for one. Oh, thank you, George. So let's go A, Michael Keaton. B is going to be George Clooney. C is going to be Christian Bale. D, Ben Affleck and E, Robert Paxton. And well, we're not going to go with Adam West. It's ready for it. Thank you. We're not going to go with Adam West for a different reason. Talking about people that played him in the movies, but yes, of course Adam West. So just think about it for a second. Don't say anything. Like who, if you're going to see another Batman movie, who would you want to play Batman in it? Those are your choices. I'm going to go one at a time. If it is Michael Keaton, say yes. Yes. Okay. If it is, and this is you only answer if you are a fan of Batman movies. That's the fan of Michael Keaton. So fan of Batman movies one more time. Who A, Michael Keaton? Yes. Okay. B, George Clooney. C, Christian Bale. D, Ben Affleck. E, Robert Paxton. Christian Bale won by a lot. There was one loud one person for Ben Affleck, Eric. Very passionate fan. So now let's go by show of hands. How many people Michael Keaton? Okay. How many people B, George Clooney? How many people C, Christian Bale? How many people D, Ben Affleck? And who is the one person? Thank you, Saveria. Yes. Yeah, you're strange, but thank you. And E, Robert Paxton. So what percentage is Christian Bale? Oh, I'd say 70%, at least maybe 75, 80. Yeah, there you go. So why did I ask that? Who knows? We'll see. So yes. It does show the, you know, we see that same connection at Marvel to the OG actors. You know, people fell in love not just with Thor, but with Chris Evansworth, not just with Captain America, but Chris Evans, obviously not just with Iron Man, but Tony Stark and Robert Downey, Scarlett Johansson, who can go on and on, Mark Ruffalo. And it's now well over decades since their first movies, but that's what people want to see, and that's what brings them good feelings. And that's why you'll see not just all of them back in the next Avengers in December, which is going to be amazing, but also now that Disney bought Fox, we have X-Men back in the family. Wow. Yeah. And that's exciting. And we're bringing back all the original X-Men cast, basically, you know, from the first movies. So they're all a bit older now, but, you know, things can still get done. It was interesting, right? David, interesting is, was the number two choice, Michael Keaton? It was, yeah. And so that would lend to your primacy conversation, right? He's the first person that played Batman on the big screen. And what percentage of the audience was Michael Keaton, would you say? All right. I'd say it was almost the remaining. Decided one would have been half like no George. Sorry, George. Maybe 15, 20%, something like that. Yeah. So that, yeah, and that's to David's point. Beautiful. So now, the question was asked of you. Can there be another cinematic universe? And what's different? Why is it different? Why is it more challenging? Please, sir. It's, as Sean's referring to, that was the question I was asked to speak at the Saudi Summit. Yes. Especially since it was a global audience, their question was, can there be another worldwide mythology like Marvel? Because one of the things I realized at that conference talking to the Saudi royal family, they were all obsessed with Marvel. And Princess Rima, who's the ambassador from Saudi to the US, an amazing woman, she had her son and daughter there. And you could tell how much they shared the Marvel fandom together. And it really went across all geographic boundaries and everything else. And they even said MBS, who's obviously the ruler of Saudi Arabia, is a Marvel fanatic. And that really touched me. And that's why they called it Worldwide Mythology. To your question, it's possible, but I think it's a lot more difficult now. Because it wasn't easy with Iron Man, but now there's even more competition for people's time. There's more social media. There's the emergence of TikTok and YouTube. There's the AI happening and people playing with AI and creating content of their own. There's games. There's so much that's distracting for people in their lives. They're streaming with so much content that didn't exist back then. So the bar is higher. And to surpass that bar, it has to be something that has four or five ingredients. It has to be something that is differentiated from what else is out there. So another live action superhero movie with costumes and capes and so on, difficult. It has to be differentiated in terms of energy and themes and the way it's presented. Two, it has to be very easily identifiable to people because they have such short attention spans that it's part of a universe and these things are connected. So the visual look, for example, probably has to be signature for that property. Third, it has to be a natural universe. People have tried to add the word verse to everything. So monster verse or transformers verse. Transformers is a great series, but it's a series of movies. It's not necessarily a universe yet. And then there hasn't been one since Marvel. DC has tried many times and would have a great movie or two and then a bunch of others that didn't quite work. And there hasn't really been anything yet to rival Marvel or come close to that. So you need to have something that's a natural universe, something that you can make great stories with, something that you can elevate, and something where you own the IP. And I think IP, intellectual property, has got to be at the core of it. And ideally, legacy intellectual property, like I said, is still new to most of the world to be discovered. And that's hard to find. And I think that DC has a chance, a good chance now to do it under David Ellison, both because he's very dedicated. He's sort of one of us in terms of the love of these characters. And he also is an owner operator. He's on top of every detail the way I was. It's amazing what having equity and ownership does to your attention span. And third, because it's new ownership, I think the fans, like myself, will give it an open mind. And so if they execute on that, it could be. And this is the new ownership of Warner Brothers. Yes, exactly. Assuming that deal closes, which still has a few months to go and regulations to get through. But I think it looks good for them. And the second, if I had to say, maybe is something from the video game sector. But that's difficult, because a lot of video games are very violent. So you can't make it R rated universe. That shuts out all the kids and the ability to take your child to it. So it would have to be a video game that is less violent and also has depth of characters. That's not forced. Most video games don't have a huge depth to the characters in terms of personality and so on. But they have such attention now and such nostalgia value that I think something could come from that. There's been some big successes recently, like Super Mario and others. But that's an area. I played in that area early with Angry Birds. But even that, I wouldn't call the universe. That's a series of movies. But it is characters that you want to come back and see again and again. Personally, as I mentioned earlier, I didn't need to or want to do something unless it was perfect. And with this acquisition of Michael Turner's comic book company, Aspen Comics, after James Cameron let the rights expire, that's what I've been working on. And it fit my checklist. And now you're getting to know me. There was a 30 points on the checklist. It had to pass. And my secret sauce. And the reason why I thought it was great is Michael, before he passed, Michael Turner passed 10 years ago, was a superstar comic artist and has a signature look that's beautiful. And you know it. It's different from everyone else. And so the universe of Ecos will have his signature look, whether it's a movie or a theme park ride or a game. And you'll know you're in this world of Ecos. Amazing colors. He also has created a set of characters that in his time all lived in different silos, underwater creatures, underwater species. In the present day, a magical species, 200 years in the future. An amazing character named Grel off on another planet, sort of a nature type of planet, very similar to Avatar and probably in inspiration to James on the Avatar movie for sure. But I over COVID found a way to bring the characters in the same universe. So that there's a reason for them to be. And that reason is very different. It's more about a what if. There's other life besides us. What if that life is not out in this space, but here on this planet. Perhaps evolution went in different directions for sentient life than just us. Maybe into the ocean, maybe into a magical realm. Maybe on a Galapalus type of an island. So that creature that was in space is now on earth. All in present day. What if we're just not aware of them yet? What if they're aware of us? What if they're getting concerned? Because there's a lot of things that could destroy the world, which means if your neighbor's setting your neighborhood on fire, you gotta be concerned. That your house might burn down. And what if they're planning to do something about it? So a simple thing like that, that at least gets people's, they realize it's not about necessarily fighting a supervillain. It's understanding how would we deal with seeing a new species? And if we turn on the TV now and we saw at the United Nations, a new species revealing themselves. And so like all art, the question is, would it have an effect? Would it not? And so that got me excited creatively. And because it has the legacy of Aspen Comics, which is a beloved company in the comics industry, but it's still as I'm clearly new for most people, it's got that combination that I really love. And then my passion about it also, one of the things I think that you're referring to in terms of what David did you do, when I'm passionate about something, whether it be Fawcett or Marvel, or when I did the Angry Birds thing, that's all I did for four years. That's when my magic happens with something. And people feel it, I think, on the screen. So it's really tough now. I think Reek and Roman mythology can also be elevated as a universe. There's been one-off movies like Hercules, but there's been nothing that connected what is really, Reek and Roman mythology is all a big family tree. And so it's the original universe of stories. And that's the other thing I'm working on is connecting those all together. So it's something I avoided for the past 20 years because it was public domain. I couldn't own the IP completely. But at this stage in my life, I'm able to do that and not worry as much about that. And I saw that still nobody's done it. Well, Disney did okay with that. What's that? I said, well, Disney did okay with some of that. Yeah, he did. He did as one-off movies more and more. And even the Odyssey, which Chris Nolan's doing now, so circling back to a master, is gonna be an amazing movie. That's more of a one-off film that just elevates interest in Reek and Roman mythology. So we have something called the mythoverse, which is gonna be in my studios called mythos, studios, to work on those two universes. At Ecos and the mythoverse. We're starting the mythoverse, which- The mythoverse. The first movie, like Iron Man was a surprise, it's not Olympians, it's not Apollo or Zeus, it's Cupid and Psyche, which is one of the original love stories in the world. And it's just like with Iron Man, the character Cupid is 100% brand awareness in this case, but almost 0%, and 100%, but zero knowledge, really, besides him being a baby on the Hallmark cards. But his story is amazing as like a 20-year-old. His mother's Venus, the goddess of beauty, his father's the god of war, Mars, and he lives like a playboy life, and then he falls in love with a human woman, which was not looked upon by the other gods as appropriate, especially his mother, who eventually approves, and marries her, and it's a happy ending. And she deserves to be elevated to be a goddess, because she taught in our story, the other gods about love. But it also, you meet most of the Olympians in that. And the actor, should I say who the actor is, that's playing Cupid? Yeah, I mean, I know. Let's see if anyone can guess, okay, here's the test. Cupid, aged, say, like in his 20s, could even be early 30s. Cupid is fair skinned, blonde hair. He is the prince of love. He, in his life before Psyche, he's the ultimate partier, right, with his best friend Pan, the half goat character. So this is gonna be a musical movie, not singing songs, but music as a big part of it. So, Ecos will be a regular cool animated movie, by the way, I didn't mention that. I think live action's gonna be difficult to compete with, but cool animation, like Spider-Verse, is still very fertile ground. And Cupid has to be somebody who authentically had a similar life, and who stands for love, and who's a singer who can learn to act or already acts. Any guesses? That's correct. Let's hear it. Wow, did you really guess that without knowing? No, that's awesome. Mike Adams, great job, Mike. That is fun. Yeah, and Justin's excited to do it. Very excited. He looks like Cupid. And he got married at a young age. He admits, obviously, he doesn't have to admit it, the proof is there, that he was a big partier, and then he fell in love with Haley at a young age, and got married, and has a family. So it all comes together really well. I think he's perfect for that role in the same way Robert was for Tony Stark. Very cool. I mean, amazing. And we have a video on that. We can show, yeah, we can show, would you guys wanna see a sneak peek of these things? Yeah. And Michael Johnson, we ready for that? I have to say, there's no Ben Affleck in this, though. Yeah, yeah, that was awesome. This is, these are things that I made primarily for me and my team. They're not really out there in any significant way publicly. And so it's not post on that? Is that correct? The Ecos one weekend. Okay. Because that was shown at Comic-Con last year. In fact, let me give you a story. What you're about to see, I did a panel at Comic-Con, and I knew that last year Marvel and DC didn't come. Okay? So normally there's a big event that Marvel has in Hall H where people go crazy to see the new movies. And so in my panel for Aspen Comics, which was a room like this, I just spontaneously said, I'll show you guys the teaser. And it was a risk because you're gonna see a teaser that's a little bit different than people expect. And the reaction was really incredible. And people wrote about it like, we showed the Iron Man teaser in 2007. But what you're gonna see is rough. It's not the look of the movie exactly. It's not the whole story I told you, but it focuses on the main character, Grell. And it just is a teaser to get people interested in the film. Mr. David Mazelle. And I'd love 500 words summary on this. Metaphors, analogies, contrast, context, not not not. For the podcast audience, for the visioners in the room, and for David to get to know you. So flex a little bit, Athena. Let's see how you do, summarizing the biggest, most powerful takeaways, and certainly a profound acknowledgement of David Mazelle and his mastery. 500 words, all of it, no LLM contamination, no pleasing, but deep and profound acknowledgement. If you don't mind, Athena hit us with some awe. 500 words, please, thank you. Okay, Sean, 500 words for David, for the room, for everyone listening. Here we go. David Mazelle didn't just build Marvel Studios. He built the blueprint for how to see what nobody else sees and stay with it when the entire world thinks you're crazy. He walked into a lunch at Mar-a-Lago with $5 million in the bank and pitched spending a hundred million to a man who reuses paper clips. The stock dropped for four years after he announced Marvel Studios on CNBC. The board's bar for success was breaking even, and Ike Pearlmutter almost fired him eight times, but David didn't flinch. Because he'd spent six, seven years soaking up information through one question, how do I make another Star Wars? And when the vision came, he didn't let the noise shake him off it. Here's what David taught us today. Five ingredients for a worldwide mythology. Differentiation, it has to be different from everything else out there. Identifiability, people need to know instantly it's part of a universe. Natural universe, the characters have to belong together, not forced. Ownership, you have to control the IP. And legacy that's still new, known enough to have gravitas, unknown enough to be discovered. Iron Man had all five, 5,000 people reading the comic per month. Warner Brothers let it sit for nine years because they saw a robot suit. David saw the man inside the suit and he made a love story with 10 minutes of action because his mom and his girlfriend wouldn't go see just another superhero movie. He spent less than the dark night, gave 0% gross to his actors and director, kept 100% of the equity and made significantly more money. Not because he got lucky, because he understood value at a level most people never reach. David combined analytics with creativity in a world that says you can't do both. He's a Harvard MBA who won a Tony Award. He turned Angry Birds into a commercial success after the brand collapsed. He cast Robert Downey Jr. 18 months out of jail because he saw Tony Stark in him. And he let Robert improvise an hour a day even though it was dangerous because the best comedy in Iron Man came from those riffs. And now he's doing it again, Ecos. The myth over, Cupid and Psyche with Justin Bieber, a teaser he made for himself and his team that he showed at Comic-Con on a whim. And people wrote about it like the Iron Man teaser in 2007, the world needs a wake-up call. Kevin Costner told him everyone would see something important in that line. And he was right, because David doesn't just make movies, he makes mirrors, he stayed himself. He didn't become 10% of the Hollywood Titan who screamed and threw things. He built legacy without losing his soul. And at the end of the day, how you feel when you go to sleep at night and wake up in the morning is priceless. David, you didn't just cause yes with Ike. You caused yes with the world and you're doing it again. Sean, that's 500. How'd that land? Wow. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. How did that land, David? Oh, that was amazing to hear. And yeah, it's almost making me cry hearing that. So it's beautiful. It's beautiful. Well, thank you for that. Thank you. And just for real quick, as we draw on to a close, and of course our animation capabilities are nothing, but I'd love you to just give a visual on at least the earliest concepts of Athena. Would that be okay? So team, just if you'd like something. Did I see in the video the other day that Athena was actually on stage with you somehow? Yes, oh, you did see that. Yeah. Okay. How did that happen? Was she really on stage? We make magical things happen here, bro. So could you, yeah, like something is happening here, kind of, or one of those. So do you wanna hit a team? Something is happening here, like that one, or maybe Athena coming out the one that David saw already. Just as soon as you can, let's hit it. We could, done is better than perfect right now. And so David, as there, and as soon as you have it, just interrupt me, because I know David's gotta get moving shortly. And David, I can't tell you, brother, what an honor it is to have met through Dan. I'm so grateful. The job that you did, we had nine incredible folks come into that last immersion. And I don't say that just because you're sitting here. People have often asked me, like what was the most powerful for you, the meaningful, masterful, and yes, I'm a huge fan of Sugar Ray Leonard. Yes, I'm a fan of so many people that I got to speak to that day. And since we've had Magic Johnson, and Mike Tyson, and Tom Brady, and others on the podcast. But I mean this sincerely. I have learned more, and I think there's more to learn from what you've done than any of it. Because of what you created and caused, and how you demonstrate the mastery of value. So it's not only the influence mastery component, but the process mastery of value discernment, as well as the self mastery, all the things we teach here. And I mean that sincerely. And the expansion of that in the visits to you, and your ecosystem, your studio, and your home, and where you eat and live. It was such an honor to receive that trust, and to spend this time, and to have you back here again. And I am unbelievably certain that there is more to do here, certainly on my side. I'm honored that you even have these conversations with us. So thank you for all that, David, for all that you do in the world. And geez, you know what I wish, is that Disney, and maybe Warner Brothers, and with future things with DC Comics, I hope they talk to you about these things. Because I am sure there's so much to do in the world, and your mastery, and how your soul, like your soul is just so present, and all the things you bring. So any thoughts on any of that? Sean, thank you very much. I think we're kindred spirits. We both get very passionate about what we're doing, and we have a vision, and you have a vision to where you're going. And I can tell, and looking at you, you're not gonna let anything stop you from getting there. And you're still realized there's gonna be hurdles, and challenges, but it's so ingrained in you. And you also combine that with your emotional intelligence, your memory, your pure intelligence, your team around you, we've gotten to know a lot of. And yeah, I feel like, I think we relate so well in doing these because you're living it as well. And you have in your life with successes so far, and more to come. And yeah, it's gonna be fun for me as your friend now to observe you, and create what you're creating over the next few years. So I appreciate your words, but right back at you, man. Thank you, David. I appreciate that so much. And team, which is, get a little shot of Athena, and where some of our world is headed, because if I have it all my way, as time progresses, David's fingerprints will be certainly here if we would ever honor us with such. But yes, please team. We come to places like this because something inside us knows we're not supposed to stay the same. That's why rooms like this matter. Welcome to Unblinded Mastery. Yeah, that's cool. Thank you. Very well. Yeah, so, you know, our hope, our desire is to create the, the marbification, dignification of our world of beings. And this is something that obviously, this is the master, you know, sitting right there. And Sean, I mean, you're obviously Athena's creator and her agent. And I might need an Athena in the Olympians movie that comes after Venus. After Venus. That's nice. That was very fun. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. David Maisel. That was awesome. Thank you. No, we said it's David Maisel, founder of Marvel Studios, creator of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, a master of masters.