The Life and Death of River Phoenix (with Last Podcast on the Left)

Feeling more confident in yourself can start with understanding the support available, and MedExpress helps you explore weight management options from home. Begin with our short online consultation, reviewed by UK registered clinicians. There are no appointments or waiting rooms, everything is handled online. If eligible, treatment arrives discretely at your door, with professional support from clinicians throughout your journey. Discover a more confident you at medexpress.co.uk slash podcast. Okay. Heathcliff. Audible presents Heathcliff, a new original drama inspired by Emily Brontzies, Wolverine Heights. I do not know what life is without Kathy. Before his descent into monstrous revenge, there were three missing years, a time of possibility, freedom and a different kind of love. Escape this story. She has trapped you in. Starring Darryl McCormack as Heathcliff. Listen now, only unaudible. Say audible.co.uk for terms. Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to What Went Wrong, your favorite podcast full stop that just so happens to be about movies and how it's nearly impossible to make them. Let alone a good one. Let alone an unfinished film released almost 20 years after the untimely death of its star. This is another episode in our out of frame bonus series, where we explore the darker, more obscure corners of Hollywood. And today we're talking about the life, death, and final film of River Phoenix. Now, I do want to give a content warning right up top. This episode will discuss child sexual abuse, sexual assault, and heavy drug use. It's also going to feature more colorful language than you may be used to. And that's because I'm not just here with my usual co-host, Chris Winterbauer. But we are also joined by experts on some subject matter that's going to be very relevant in today's episode. I am so excited. We've got Henry Zabowski and Ed Larson from the last podcast on the left. Welcome, guys. Hello. I wanted to stress to everyone how much not an expert I am. I just want to say I'm not an expert. I'm just a fan. I think that is a sexy guy. It's just nice to have some time to really ruminate on him. I can see the regret, Mariah. I was just so happy last night. Get back big tall, frothy glass of milk, reading the story of Davidito, allowed to my wife. And one of my favorite times. Just in case anybody is wondering what we were talking about. A decent part of this episode is going to be spent discussing the children of God called because yes, River Phoenix and all of his siblings did grow up for a few years in the children of God called. So we are going to talk about it. It's so much weirder than you could possibly imagine. So we will get there. But before we do, very quickly, Henry, Ed and Chris, what's your sort of experience of River Phoenix coming into this episode? I mean, I'm a big Indiana Jones in the last crusade fan. He's my man. He's young indies. He's the real young indies, far as I concerned. And I love them for that. And then there's of course my private Idaho. And that was about all I really knew. I never really let's watch too much other than that. Big fan of his brother. Huge fan of his brother. Like his work, I do find that every five years, what Hollywood does is choose the skinniest boys they can find and give them good scripts. So what they do is they take He was dominated for an Oscar. That's what I do. They take through for the rest of us that are used to be actors. We get nothing but hot garbage. And then they choose three skinny men to give all the greatest material of the year to each year. I don't know why they decide who skinny's get it. And he was one of them. Because if you look at River Phoenix, the material he got to work with from the get with some of the best stuff in Hollywood history. They gave him Indiana Jones. Dude, and he. Well, who do you know guys? He had to work for it. You're going to find out how hard. Oh, I know. I know he had a good. His siblings were all named weird things. Obviously, Joaquin, but there was like leaf and lake and all that stuff, right? Liberty and summer. Was it was Lake one of them? Yeah, there were a lot of them. Yes, I thought leaf was. I didn't really. Leaf is watching Phoenix. They all change their hands all the time. Yeah, we'll get into it. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Well, aside from how skinny he was, I was, I've always liked River Phoenix. There is something I mean, it's true. Austin Butler, Tymotha, how a Shalame come to mind as the new skin. They just get the best stuff. And the rest of us have to fight over garbage like a bunch of diseased rats. Well, they're very, Tymotha Shalame is very talented. We're skinny. I don't like him at all, but he's very talented. He's very skinny. Did you see the movie? No, I see Marty's. We're bogging him down. I love playing pong. The thing I find most interesting with River Phoenix, and I like the same movies, the big hits, right? Stand by me. Indiana Jones and Cratt Lasker say not young Indiana Jones is mentioned. And then my private Idaho. It's my own private Idaho. Just my own private Idaho. I'm getting angry at the others. But I don't know. I don't know if you guys feel this way, but I feel like, I mean, he was obviously very talented. I've liked him and a lot of stuff. But I, because he died so early, we've like extrapolated this amazing, the amazing career he would have had if he had not died. So he can see his man humankind. And he's gonna, hey, romcom run. Yes. Right. We he kind of he was like in the sweet spot for a long time. And even something like sneakers, like an ensemble cast, he's really good in that. What is sneakers? Forget about them. Yeah, he's really good in sneakers. I guess I'm just I think we should always leave it open that like the career may have gone very differently. That like a Christian Slater result was just as likely as a Brad Pitt result, you know, it was just as likely as a different one. And I actually think we'll talk about it at the end, but I think dark blood, and I understand there are some very specific circumstances around that movie. I do think it actually maybe reveals a slightly more limited range that he had as an actor than he'd stuck to a specific type of role, I think, for a while. And he was trying to break out with dark blood. Listen, it's an incomplete film. It's unfair to judge it on those terms. But I'm just I'm a little skeptical that it was going to be the home run that everybody assumes. No. It was going to be. Yeah. And I don't, but I think we do this with so many actions. Look at Orson Wilson. Or just I think of Orson Wilson musicians. Right. All the time about how he peaked like they joke about it, but it's true. He peaked to 23. What are you talking about? Touchy Evil is his best movie. Don't do it. He was like 30 when he made that movie. No, touchy Evil is fat as hell. He was like, make this up. He was fat. He was fat. It's true. I we're going to get into this. I do want to start diving in because, you know, I think I think the truth is River Phoenix's heart really was not in it by the time that he unfortunately passed away. And I do think that that's evident in the work. And you know what? We're going to find out why because he had quite a life. All right. So when you've got a name like River Phoenix, pretty safe to assume that your parents are classic hippies, which was true. His parents were Arlen and John, but they hadn't always been your standard 60s hippies. Just a few years before River was born, his mother was actually a 23 year old Jewish secretary working in Manhattan. She was living with her husband who was not River Phoenix's father. And she just decided, you know what? None of this feels right. And so as many people did, she bailed on her entire life, hitchhiked her way out of New York, got all the way to California. She's standing on Santa Monica Boulevard, sticking her thumb out to hitch a ride. And a 21 year old man drives up in a Volkswagen minibus. And his name is John Lee, not Phoenix, but bottom. Now he got a pretty rough upbringing. Several years spent at an orphanage. She named her. He ran away, tried to become a songwriter. None of it worked. Now he's living as a gardener and refinishing furniture. But these two hit it off right away. They are both very into the anti-war movement. They're both nomadic. They are anti materialist. And they just really seemed to love each other very much. So they travel around the West Coast for a couple years. In 1970, they settle on a peppermint farm in Oregon, mostly because Arlen was wicked pregnant. She kept working on the peppermint farm right up until she gave birth, refused to go to a hospital or have a doctor. That is a theme that will continue. And then on August 23, in 1970, her first child was born. And his name was River Jude Bottom. River Bottom, guys. Wow. Really cool. And a good name, now Nixon. There we go. Yeah. A second kid should have been called Catfish. It's hard, buddy. It's hard. Who know? It should have been an apple. Yes. Yeah. Apple bottom. And then Boots with the fur for the rest of the children. And then fear. How the scuffle would that be? Have after like spanking the baby on its alive and that's the first thing the doctor says, like, nice little bottom you got there. It was a nice little bottom. We thought nothing very cute. So they named him River because their commune had been reading a book called Cidarta. Yes, they're in a commune. They're always in a commune. And the river is a central theme in this book representing enlightenment answers to life's questions, time, unity, and much, much more. Any guesses why they named his middle name Jude? Oh, they saw the Beatles. They go, yeah, they really liked the song Hey Jude. Oh, yeah. They're keeping it. It's a pretty simple. So this stint on the peppermint farm, though, is pretty brief. And after Little River Bottom was born, they again go out. And they're driving around the US as part of now a mobile commune. And naturally, they're still doing a whole bunch of LSD. Arlen later said, quote, we'd heard that acid was the truth serum. It was the thing that was going to get you above the world to a level consciousness where you could feel the power of God. That was the only reason we took it. I mean, it does. But it doesn't mean you're going to be like cool to go for the rest of your life. You know what I mean? But it does do that. I did a lot in high school. I train I permanent trails. It's the worst. Yeah, I always did. They're not going anywhere. Yeah, they're they don't they haven't left me. I'm so mad about. Yeah, actually, it's kind of cool. Like everything has traces in your life. Sorry. That's good. You used to it. Yeah. All right. Well, his parents had an awakening of sorts where they realized that, okay, maybe drugs are not the right path forward. And I want to read a much later exchange between River and his father from Premier magazine. His father said, I just instantly saw that I was living in a pit. There were a lot of lost people. And the president wasn't necessarily the nicest guy in the world. To which river said, maybe you didn't need drugs to know that. So sometime in 1972, the family wound up in Texas. And this is where their aforementioned awakening made them the perfect target for a cult leader named David Brandt Berg. All right. We're here. So you guys have extensively covered the children of God and David Berg on the last podcast on the left. Henry, can you give me the briefest rundown you can of who early David Berg was? What was his target? The days it was an early, he was started CBGB's with the talking heads. No, you fucking asshole. You don't know anything about. No, this isn't the old scene. This isn't the history of punk. It's a no-dogs. David Berg came from a family of fringe Christian beliefs and a family of other people, like other cult leaders. And when he was born, he was a very sexually active little boy. He was, you don't almost call him sexually maniacal. As little boy, a compulsive masterbiter. It made his mom to the point where she thought a suitable punishment would be to that if you caught him masturbating, which we should do, is place him in front of his father. And then he would have to masturbate to completion as punishment. And eventually, he was in front of his dad. Yeah. And then David Berg began to take that on as a challenge. And he was just like, I'm the best that's ever done it. Because David Berg, weirdly enough, is one of the most positive men you've ever met in the face of the most positive, just real groovy, right? And so David Berg, he started a, he was a traditional preacher. He was like in these sort of like various fringe, the bubble, and then something broke inside of him. He started to realize the scene's changing. I'm going to position myself in a world of hippies as the anti-hippy hippie, which means your parents, like he started to go straight to the disaffected youth that are starting to be getting over the hippie movement, where they're like, oh, I'm sick of doing all of these drugs. I'm sick of rock and roll. But David, but they're still in the lifestyle. David Berg understood that in order to get to that group, he started to change the way he dressed. He started dressing all funky, wearing like Afghans and like he changed up all the stuff. Guru's hair real long. He started understanding, oh, you talked to the youth first ever like, probably prototype of the cool pastor, right? Like everybody, this is a cool place. We're doing this rock and roll music. We're doing this in a bus and it's really just about getting back to Christ and getting rid of all of the noise. Like we're getting rid of all of the structure of religion. We're getting rid of all the nonsense and the wildness of the 60s. We're getting rid of that and we're coming down to a simple back to Jesus movement. Because that's the other than the 70s and all this, there was all of these like Jesus movements which were entirely stripped down, walking around religions. Okay. And so that's like David Berg, that's where the structure, then he turned that's kind of... Then it went from there. Okay. Yes. Also, I want to point out, if anyone listening is like, why is he talking about this man's child sexual abuse, it will come back, unfortunately. It's the only way I brought it up because it becomes his entire life. What's the basis for the entire church that he forms effectively? So that's exactly right. Thank you, Henry. That was perfect. It's almost like a marketing thing where he realizes that like the hippies, these are the people that I can get. And so that's why he and his family start really targeting them. And John and Arlen are exactly the type of people that the birds were trying to reel in. And they got them good. So by 1972, they'd been really looking for their tribe and they find it in Crockett, Texas with the Children of God. They gave up all their possessions, which is what everyone was asked to do. They packed their whole family into a school bus, along with some other randos. They go to Colorado Springs. They set up a new commune. And they go back to Texas. And River Phoenix's parents rose through the ranks of the Children of God quite fast. 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Before his descent into monstrous revenge, there were three missing years, a time of possibility, freedom and a different kind of love. Escape this story. She's trapped you in. Starring Darryl McCormack as Heathcliff. Listen now, only on Audible. Say audible.co.uk for terms. In 1972, they changed their names to Amram and Yohebed, the parents of Moses. Interesting, because they're already framing River as sort of like a prophet. Like a chosen one. Exactly. So the second child they had was Rain, Joan of Arc. And then they moved around to Ton, first to Mexico, then to Puerto Rico, where Joaquin was born. And then John, aka Amram, was named the Archbishop of Venezuela and the Caribbean. And in 1975, the family moved to Caracas, Venezuela. Huge. Topical. Topical. Topical. Topical. It's huge. Children of God. Got huge. Yes. Also, I had to say, Joan of Arc really could have used some rain there at the end. Rimshots. That's the Aramans. Prodigoint. Wow. Oh, they brought the show to a screaming halt. God. Great. Wow. I just can't top it. All right. So five-year-old River became fluent in Spanish. But because, you know, as Henry pointed out, children of God was huge at this point, but they also didn't provide their missionaries with really any financial support. So how were the bottoms paying for everything? Why their children, of course. They would send river and rain out into the streets of Venezuela to sing hand out pamphlets and make some cash. A former member of the cult said that people were actually encouraged to use their kids to make ends meet, which kind of brings us to the only source of guidance that these basically colonial missionaries were receiving from David Berg. And that was the mo letters. Henry, could you briefly explain what the mo letters were? Mo letters are kind of, I view them as an early version of what the internet would do with cult like processes. Like, the idea of like, it can get you from afar. David Berg began to isolate himself. It's like, early Q. Yes, early Q. Well, he, he isolated himself. Eventually, he put himself into his own little world because he didn't want to be totally available to the whole, to the entire religion. So he created these long drunk recording slash letters that he would distribute amongst everybody. And they would be manuals for life. And eventually they went all the way from big overarching things to very nitpicky things about how you like run your car, like literally like how to maintain your car, how to do blah, blah, blah. But then it would turn into this, he would experiment on things in his inner circle, right about it in the mo letter and send it out. And then let it kind of permeate through the rest of the cult. This is where the first like child rearing stuff comes out. This is where the first sexuality, this is when people start seeing these his real thoughts. Exactly. And as you pointed out, there were some child rearing things. In these, it does seem like an awful lot of pressure and stress was placed on children in the children of God. We're going to get to more of that in a moment. But even just by telling these kids that their purpose was to save the world, that that's your job. That's what you are going to be doing. That's a very stressful place for a kid to be. And of course, unfortunately, there were other things that made this a very stressful place for children. So while John did hold a leadership position, archbishop, it's unclear exactly what that meant or how aware he was of David Berg's, let's say, darker tendencies. But here's what we do know. By 1972, children of God was extremely controversial. It was an openly fundamentalist sect. As Henry pointed out, they required their recruits to drop whatever they were doing, hand over all their possessions, generally not a good sign. Relatives of the members were concerned enough to organize. They had formed the parents committee to free our children from the children of God, free cog, catchy. And then the children of God fought back. They said, no, this is all happening pretty publicly. There was another group that formed the thankful parents and friends of the children of God. Think cog, who said, no, no, they've saved our kids. Our kids are doing great. And to be fair, there were a lot of people that I think joined this cult as a way to get off of drugs. And to stay off of drugs. That's what Scientology was like one of these things. Every cult, I mean, not every cult, I'd say an 85% start with an innocent idea. They start with something that is extremely helpful. There are helpful things in it. The idea of getting back to the Earth, a simpler version of life, communal living, to be honest, it sounds really nice. That's how we used to live. We always talk about buying a bunch of land and starting a commune. But why they should always turn in and fucking and suck in every single person that's in the fucking come? Why is it always the commune? Always means everybody's getting fucked and sucked. That's why any more, that's the cities are great. Because there's more people, you know, it's... By 1974, the same year that John and his family left the US, the New York Attorney General's office had officially described the group as a cult. And they released a report citing two cases involving teenage girls. One was a 14-year-old girl who said that she was raped when she, quote, refused to cooperate with the elders. Another was a 15-year-old girl who said she was forced to marry Berg's son, repeatedly raped, separated from one of her children and then held against her will until she escaped. So about as bad as you can get. Yes. At this point, he was communicating with his followers by mailing out these mo letters. Now, on the one hand, the bottoms, they were on the road, quite a lot. They're in foreign countries. You know, the cult itself is not a singular entity. It's spread out. It could be easy to argue that like, by, he may not have been reading all of this. On the other hand, he was in a leadership position. The letter that is the sort of like nail in the coffin for their relationship with the children of God cult is the mo letter advocating for flirty fishing. And to be very clear, what flirty fishing is, is literally telling the women to go out and have sex with men in order to get the men to join the cult. Do I have that right? Oh, it's the ex they were turned off by that. They were. Yes, they were. Fascinating. Which that was pretty, that was decently early. I believe that was around 1976. Yes. And the flirty fishing, to be honest, it was really when that starts is when the very, very, very bad stuff starts to go like, yes, bad stuff was happening. Okay. So then he really may not have been explicitly aware of what was going on. Yeah, because all the story of Davidito stuff, all that's like after that. The flirty fishing is when it really becomes sex forward that the whole religion sex forward. Okay. So Henry, is there anything else that you can add about the flirty fishing strategy that they were employing here? So I was in Tallahassee, Florida. We went to college, Florida state. This happened. And I was at a party. And I was at the time, let's just say I wasn't super great with the ladies. 330 pounds. Not like I am now. Not like I am now. And I, you know, got that learned a lot. I took Mr. Rees class. You still had Rees? Yep. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And Guz and Snutch. I went and I was at a party in this very attractive woman started talking at me, right? And she was all over me and she was like, I did not know. And she did the thing where she said, I would love, we got into a serious conversation afterwards. And she's like, I would love for you to come check out my church. And I, at the time, was like, I can fucking do this. Yeah. Like I can make this all happen. I remember being pretty excited for you. Yeah, I was gonna make this all happen. I'm not gonna join her church. I'm gonna get this go. I'm gonna get all. And then when I arrived there, everybody knew my name. They knew where it came from. They were already talking to me as if they had known me. They had me wanting me to fill out all this paperwork. It's describing my life, describing the things that I do every day, the things that I eat, the things that the classes I go to. And then I was like, oh no. And then I'm like, very attractive woman again. I'm like, very attractive woman. And my brain is doing all this math. There's me in like, can you do this? Yeah. And then it's just like, no. No, I remember, I remember. It's not close. I remember showing up and you being like, is it cool? We gotta get out of here. Just a minute. Yeah. Good for you. That was not a case for a lot of other people who, for deficient, very much worked on. I understood that there was other options. There are, yes, there are always other options. Like pyramid schemes, like multi-level marketing schemes. They all, and it happens to an LA to a lot of people like you mentioned with Scientology. You arrive and it's really hard to find a community. You're trying to break into Hollywood. Somebody says like, hey, you know, you just come meet some people. A lot of us work in Hollywood, et cetera. You can understand why it might be like tempting to someone who feels a little lost, especially in a new location. 100%. And another deal breaker was apparently a photo in a magazine that showed Bergs surrounded by young women. This was too much for the bottoms and they decided to leave. However, later John bottom would say of David Bergs, quote, he may have been a sexual pervert, but he's still a better man than a lot of people. Unbelievable. Elron Hubberg, obviously, I'm bringing it back to Scientology, is the perfect example of there are people still within the religion that believe that L.R.H. It's like David Miscavich fucked it all up. L.R.H. was pure. Right? It's this idea that there's this thing where they try to put it because again, sunken cost fallacy. You get imagine because you were part of it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So in terms of what River Phoenix experienced while he was in the cult, because again, like, he's six years old. He is a conscious creature when he's in this cult. It is hard to know for sure. In a 1991 interview with Details Magazine, a reporter asked River, is there anything you did at an early age that you wish you had waited for? And he said, yes, make love. The reporter asked how old he was. He said four. Oh, yeah. The reporter asked with whom another four-year-old, he said kids, but I've blocked it out. I was completely celibate from 10 to 14. I haven't really had sex with many people. Five or six, I've just fallen into relationships that were fulfilling and easily monogamous. But when the interview closes, River stated that his answer's quote could all be different tomorrow. This is where it gets hard to know what was really going on. In another interview, he said, I tried to lie as much as I can when being interviewed. It's reverse psychology. I figure if you lie, they'll print the truth. And when I tell the truth, they'll lie. Years later, Joaquin Phoenix was asked about his comments on his early sexual experience. And he said, quote, you really believe that? It was a complete and total joke. It was just fucking with the press. It was literally a joke because he was so tired of being asked ridiculous questions by the press. Now, again, I do want to call out. River was four years older than Joaquin Phoenix. Joaquin Phoenix would have been less than two when they were in the cult. And River was six. That is a big difference in consciousness. Yes. But all the other kids have basically the same story, which is that as soon as their parents started finding out that there was anything sexual being advocated by the cult, they bailed. So God, I hope that's true, but it's very... My view is, honestly, he knew that that was a story after the fact and he did lie. I do think that he was, if you were looking at the time period, it was right at the point. He did say multiple times, David Berg, that children should sexually explore each other. Right, that was like a thing that he would talk about about how children naturally want to explore each other. And so I could maybe see, that was early, so I could see maybe there's some of that shit. But I could see finding a way to ignore that if you're, I mean, I'm not saying you should, but like... No, that's what they did. They ignored it. They were like, that's Dave. Dave's crazy. He's like, he's saying these things that were like, we don't always, like they, I was reading other member testimonies and they said that. They're like, we were sort of picking and choosing what we would sort of adhere to at that point, you know, besides the most basic stuff. And then I think it became a man to us. Well, of course, I have no idea, man. I don't sound good. No, it doesn't. But that's something that Joaquin Phoenix has said too, is like, when people have talked about the fact that they grew up in the cult, it seems to come with an element of blame on them. And I think that's true, but like they're kids. So I do understand if River Phoenix was just fucking with journalists. That's very possible, but we're not going to know. So they left Venezuela. They returned to Florida where Arlen's parents lived. Joaquin Phoenix celebrated his third birthday at sea. But one thing that they all remembered from this trip across the ocean was watching a group of fishermen reel in their catches and throw them against the ship. And it really upset all of them to the point where River Phoenix was like, we got to be vegans and their parents were like, sure, why not? And this was a bold choice for a family that was already in for a major, major culture shock. So the kids, they had not watched much or any TV or movies. They had never been to school. River even said, quote, before I came back to America, I thought features were Kellogg's commercials and cartoons. Then I saw a Western and I thought that companies paid people's families to kill them. I just believed it. So on top of having unusual names and being vegan, they also had none of the same cultural references as the other kids. They were very easy targets for bullies at school. And at home, they were treated as equals. Arlen said that she treated the children more like friends than children and quote, it was never like we know better because we're the parents. It was more like, this is the first time we've ever done this too. What do you think? And the children were so wise. If we made a mistake, we made it together. Hey, I just don't, hey, just this idea of all of this. You have to be in control. Yeah, kids are wrong. They don't know stuff. Honestly, I don't think River Phoenix was ever old enough to be right. Yeah, you never got to like, I think like 26 is like when you could start actually talking to someone I respect. I don't think you're ever correct until you're 30. Yeah. I think that's probably true. Well, and let's get into this because, you know, the children of God's stuff, it's fascinating. It's very salacious. But I think where we actually get into the truly sad stuff about River Phoenix is here and it is singular to his family. So they left the call. They changed their name to Phoenix to signify a rebirth for the whole family, but they still had very strong unifying beliefs. Arlen, no vaccines, no medication. I'll just leave that there. But she had a vision that her kids would quote, captivate the world. These parents are from day one, banking on the kids, making it big. They kept performing at talent shows and county fairs. And in 1979, they did start to get noticed. Eight-year-old River and six-year-old rain's rendition of, yeah, gotta be a baby, a children of God's song. The one first place at the Hernando Fiesta Cultural Event in Spring Hill, Florida, and Arlen mailed the article out to family and friends, which included actress and future director Penny Marshall, who happened to be an old classmate of Arlen's. Weird. Penny Marshall passed it along to the casting department at Paramount and they sent a letter back to Arlen. Now, according to River, the letter basically said, quote, yeah, we'd be happy to see your children. If you're ever in California, by all means, look us up. But don't make a special trip. And so, of course, we just threw everything into the old station wagon and drove out to Burbank. It's so interesting, too, because obviously from day one, it seems like what they were looking for a purpose, right, Arlen and John. But they know that whatever it is, they don't have it. But maybe their kids will have it. And so children of God gave them that purpose to their children at first. And so it feels like such a natural segue to move into the classic Hollywood parent sort of role, where my child will become the vehicle through which all of my dreams are realized. She was called a Moses by time it was born. Exactly. And which David Berg had also called himself Moses before that. That's why they call them the Mo letters. Yeah. And so it's just, it's so Hollywood is, it's a cult, too. And so, and especially around child actors. And this is that siren song. And I know they're saying, like, if it's ever convenient, blah, blah, blah. But they do these giant nationwide casting calls. Exactly. And, you know, much to the bottoms of now Phoenix's surprise when they got there, Paramount had no interest in actually meeting with them. But they just stayed. And the kids started busking again. The family was moving around a lot, sometimes staying with John's aunt in LA. But everything changed when they met talent agent Iris Burkin. She said, quote, they came to me when they were little children, the whole family. I've had them since River was like nine. He was the most beautiful child you've ever seen. I like a little Elvis. They all got different names. Who the hell knows? Heart, Liberty, Summer. Every week they're changing. Earth, wind and fire. Wow. I love this lady. These people don't give a, I can't. Agents are just, just a wonderful people. I remember as a child, like reading, like, not highlights, but a different, like, kids magazine. And there was like a, there was a whole thing about the Phoenix family. Playboy Jr. Yes. Yeah. But the whole thing about the, and everyone loved that there was so many of them. They loved that they had weird names. And they actually kind of fucking helped them. No, it was a whole marketing thing that they flipped into. And it's also, that's true. So many institutions, you think about colleges and stuff. Like everybody loves the idea of the, oh, there's more of you. Great. There's more that we can take advantage of. Like, oh, it's more likely you're going to donate to us. Oh, if this one burns out, we'll replace the ball with the mirror, for example, exactly. Exactly. It's so cynical. It is. And she signed River on the spot. He started booking commercials like Ocean Spare, Cranberry Juice, Mitsubishi. But after one year, he said, no more commercials. I'm done. He explained that they felt too phony. He said, quote, who owns the product? I mean, are they supporting apartheid? I just didn't like the whole thing. Even though it was helping us pay the rent, how could I tell anybody to drink canned cranberry juice? I didn't drink it. I didn't believe in what I was saying. And he's basically saying like he's starting to actually appreciate the craft of acting. Again, he is a child at this point. So, you know, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool to hear that. Yeah. It's a lot. It's like it's more just been like, well, you know, you reckon, pick out their kid. Yeah. I mean, that's basically what the talent agent is saying. He's like, I really even know what a vegan is. Can you please do this ad for McDonald's? And he said, no, you're in. Wow. Well, in his dad's moral awakening extended to like, maybe the president's not a bad guy, but it stops well before telling people to drink grape juice son. You need to get out there and you're stuck that grape juice. Well, I think we're going to learn. It is less his father that's pushing him into all of this than his mother. So roughly a year past, he kept auditioning. All five of the kids kept up with their music, busking on the streets. Now his first on-screen role was a TV show called Fantasy, but his first big acting role was as Guthrie McFadden on a CBS series called Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. The audience loved River. Yeah. Showrunners end up expanding his role. It did get canceled after one season, but it marks the beginning of his career in Hollywood and also all the problems that would come with it because his parents were his managers. Yeah! Dad always works. Imagine becoming one of our 13 guaranteed UK millionaires on Friday the 13th. You'd laugh in the face of luck. Friday the 13th will be lucky for some. You're a millions from the National Lottery play on it. I count terms, rules and procedures about a blaze must be 18 or over. Fred, I'm pretty sure this isn't how you make M&M's cookie dough. Trust me, yellow. Just one spoonful of mixture. Mmm. And it's into the oven you go. The oven. Fred, baking your friends isn't the best recipe. Oh. Try these new M&M's cookie dough instead. Mmm. New M&M's cookie dough flavor. No baking needed. M&M's. It's more fun together. Now, John was often the one on set and according to some sources he did struggle with alcohol. As for Arlen, people described her as a typical stage mother, very pushy. But River insisted that he was doing exactly what he wanted to do. However, the woman who owned the property where Seven Brides was filmed later said that River seemed quote, as if he had the weight of providing for his family on his little shoulders. And as we will learn, he absolutely did. Mmm. So his first theatrally released movie was explorers co-starring a young Ethan Hawk. And Ethan Hawk also says that River once told him he was going to become rich and famous and that he was doing it for his family. It's a great movie too. Yeah. Really fun. Yeah. I think that's why he works so well and stand by me is like that. Yeah. His character and stand by me feels as close to his real personages. He's playing behind across his filmography. And just that's why that's my remains my favourite film of his. I think it's such it suits him so well. 100%. He's wonderful in it. But he really struggled interacting with any kids that weren't in his immediate family, which I think is the case for all of these kids in the Phoenix family because they didn't have any of the same references. Like they had no idea. But that's the same thing with all these kids that grew up on TV shows. You know, Milly Bobby Brown recently was explaining, you know, you know, I grew up inside the bubble of stranger things. And so I have no points of reference with anyone my age. All of my contacts have been with people older than me. And now that I've grown up, people won't allow me to grow up. They simply want me to continue doing, you know, roles that are too young for me, et cetera, which I know River Phoenix, I think that's why River Phoenix turned down young Indiana Jones, the series. After he had done last crusade was he said, you look, I'm done with TV, I'm done with young roles. I wanna grow up. I wanna grow up and then you get things like dark blood, et cetera, for better or worse. Right. So his next big role after explorers was, of course, stand by me, third movie Rob Reiner directed, Rest in Peace, we love Rob Reiner. It made $52 million against an $8 million budget. Huge. Wow. Yes. I wonder if Penny Marshall helped get him the part. I don't know, because there is a lot of I was wondering that too. Yeah. Yeah. But he turned 15 while making this movie. And it is unfortunately when he started dabbling in weed and alcohol with his co-star, Corey Feldman. He's got no problems. I just feeling that Corey Feldman, you figured that somebody holds something like that would have really helped him out. Corey Feldman is so cute though. Like do you remember how cute he was as a child actor? Amazing. He was an incredible child. I actually think that Corey Feldman of all of them, oddly enough, was the best child actor. I agree with you. Yeah, he was, he stole that movie, I think. I think he's fantastic. He's an amazing. Oh, Remlin's the birds. Yes. Yeah. You know, the front of the 13th, he's amazing. And he's great. And maybe he'd be a little more normal if all of his friends didn't die when he was a child. But also, there's a lot of stories about whether or not he did weird stuff too. Oh, no. He heard people heard people. Great kid actor. Great kid actor. All right. OK, so Arlen, his mother, at some point when he was still pretty young, hired a 20-something nanny, which affectionately stood for New Age non-nuclear use, just so you know, named Larry McHale, who was basically a glorified housekeeper, supposed to look after him, befriended River. And Larry did his job. But he did also take River to hang out with as much older friends. And it was during one of these hangouts that River allegedly first saw one of Larry's friends using cocaine. By the way, Larry does appear in that walking Phoenix mockumentary I'm still here. So he appears to still be a part of the Phoenix family. Now, she also hired a tutor named Ed Squires, who quickly determined River almost certainly had dyslexia, which it's pretty much for sure he did. But Arlen didn't want to hear about it and refused to seek any additional help for River because he was booked and busy. From 1986 to 1990, he had major roles in six more movies, three of which were filmed back to back in 1986. Now, they did not perform super well at the box office, but every single time his acting was praised and he was being hailed as the next up-and-coming actor. And as you pointed out, Ed, he did get an Oscar nomination for Sydney Lumet's Running on Empty. Got great reviews for it. And of course, people can't stop talking about the fact that he's a vegan. He's talking about his activism all the time. He's really becoming a poster boy for this pure, perfect child at this point. And he's also kind of like an early, he's kind of an indie film star, like Darling, too. You know what I mean? Through this thing, he's had studio success, but he's also doing all these indie roles. He's, I mean, later with my own private Idaho. He's just an interesting thing. Yeah, he's trying to be like an actor's actor. Like you can tell. Yes, he's making interesting choices. He's doing interesting things. I just, again, I think that what you said is correct is that we just didn't get to see him grow to the age where he really sold out and sucked for a little while because everybody does. Everybody's got to sell out and suck for a while. It's called life. And when I happen to Otis Redding and Jimmy Hendrix, I'm sure. Oh, yeah. Jimmy Hendrix was going to put out a very bad rap album. Yeah. That was so bad. Like there was going to happen. You think about someone like Robert Downey Jr., right? In a weird way, he avoided that because of like the drug induced, like sabbatical to his career, right? That happened. And so he then just gets the comeback story with Iron Man after that, which that's like an interesting counter example. Yes, that is interesting. How careers, I do think work like that. We're like, it's all about timing, what you do. Zach Alfinakis was everywhere and then everybody got sick of him. And he even he knew it's like, I'm walking away. And then he can now he does it whatever he wants. Yeah. Well, so in terms of River publicly, he was having this pretty meteoric rise. Privately, he was struggling with it quite a lot. He didn't really know how to handle the attention that was on him. And he also confessed that he had been exposed privately to a lot more than his parents knew. By this point though, he was no longer living in LA. He and his family had moved to Gainesville, Florida in 1987. And this seems to be at his father's urging. I think his dad was beginning to get concerned about the biz as it were in Hollywood. And he wanted to remove the kids as much as he could. And his father seemed to have been on to something because it was revealed there had been cocaine on the set of the mosquito coast. But River insisted he didn't know anything about it, didn't know who had brought it. And he was really promoting a very squeaky, clean image to the press. He was literally saying to journalists, like, I have no interest in drugs. You know, I'm not attracted to it. It's not something I could do. But privately, his then girlfriend Martha Plimpton told a very different story. According to her, he was drinking and smoking regularly as well as dabbling in cocaine and mushrooms. I mean, what the hell is this fucking agency now? I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. Look at that. That's not crazy. I'm just looking back that he died. That everyone's, it all seems so much more ominous. It's just actually an extremely normal behavior for somebody that also was a part of a giant child fucking cult that just so happened to somehow survive. And then he got thrown in the next child fucking cult called Hollywood. Right. So just before he turned 19 to your point, Ed, yeah, he's 18 years old. His highest grossing film, Indiana Jones and the last crusade was released. At this point, he bought land in Costa Rica, which is where his father was now spending most of his time because, again, his father had just completely fucked off out of there. He was like, I don't want anything to do with Hollywood. I don't love that my kids are involved in this. Meanwhile, River Phoenix is not only financially supporting his family, but also a group of family friends and relatives at the house in Gamesville, Florida. And River's friends apparently referred to them as Klingons. So these are like, that's Hollywood. That's Hollywood. That's Hollywood. It's for it. It's for it. I know. It's not going to happen. It's weird, but it's normal in a weird way. It's like, this is what every athlete that makes it out of their town. It's this, this is why we're all the millions go. They're supporting so many people. Yes, but they're not his friends. It's like his mom's friends. Of course, it should happen. It should happen. It should happen to them. No, I agree that it should happen, but it happens all the time. And it's also because these guys get guilted. They guys have make it big, especially when they first go. We sacrificed so you could make it. You know, your big, oh, so your Hollywood now, and you can't help us. We're your, we may not be family, but we could be considered family. And oh, your Mr. Big Time Hollywood, when I was in heroes reborn, when I was the people that hit me up for money, when I got that job was so funny. It was so funny to think I had money like that at that time. And the people that came out of the woodwork when I got that job. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, it's very, oh, no, they come for you. Wow. I think the thing to me here that is like a next level on top of this though is that I don't even know that they're coming for him so much as they are his mother. And I think she like she is the main source of pressure on him at this point to continue. Well, she probably cashed a lot of checks that she couldn't actually clear early on. She did. And also to her credit, she hustled like she, she was working a bunch of jobs. And yeah, no, I'm sure she did, but I'm just saying she probably, she probably traded a lot of favors that then a lot of people came back and said, okay, now it's time for you to pay us back. Also, I got to say it's not like there's less cocaine and Florida and Costa Rica. Yeah, you're just going to go into the cocaine. That's where the cocaine lives. It's getting better. Yeah. His dad literally pulls a mosquito coast. Yeah, River had done mosquito coast and then his dad's like, I think what Harrison Ford's character did in this movie is spot on. I'm just going to do that. And then he just leaves for Costa Rica. Yes, he just, he just bailed. So from 1991 to 93, Phoenix had major roles in six more movies, though only five would be released during that period. But one in particular seems to have made a real impression on him, which was my own private Idaho. It is a loose retelling as I remember of Shakespeare. I think it's Henry the fourth and Henry the fifth. Okay. Very loose. It stars River Phoenix and Keanu Reeves. Those are the two most recognizable people in it. They do play male sex workers. You know, it's interesting. I don't know that River Phoenix's performance in this is as remarkable as it's maybe remembered. I actually think Keanu Reeves is and stands out to me a bit more. I always thought that Keanu was a better actor. I honestly, he kind of shows me more even after watching what I watched a dark blood. I was like, Keanu actually just as good as separate Dracula. I love Dracula. I know it. He's better than Dracula. He's better than Dracula. He's better than Dracula. He's better than Dracula. He's better than Dracula. He's better than Dracula. He's better than Dracula. What was that? He's got any point break. Point break. No. He's got any point break. What are we talking about? He's awful. No. Yeah. You are wrong. Anyone. There's like a whole successful show out here in Hollywood. Tell the boys where they like get down to Blakey on his part against like a whole cast of Apple. I think the boys run. It's alright. James Cameron secretly directed it then. I don't know. I just think I think this movie is more notable because it was Gus fansant and like it's like a beautiful like kind of road trip vibe. But if you compare it to something like like I don't know I think of like John Voight and Dustin Hoffman and midnight cowboy or something like that. I don't think the performance has come anywhere near you know some of the other landmarks. No. Well midnight cowboy is a it's just a better. It's a special film. Yeah. Yeah. It's a vibe to Ho it was shocking and in I think surprising ways it's not even that it's like particularly grituidist or anything it is it's a weird vibe. It's an interesting vibe. I liked it. Um, but you know it's it's a bold choice for River Phoenix to be making at this point and it does make splash splash for him. And again, he played a male sex worker opposite Keanu Reeves and in preparation for the role he hung out with real sex workers and he did start experimenting at this point with harrowing. He was reportedly caught drunk driving, but the production may have helped keep it under wraps. And in between projects, he was touring with his band and also going through periods of binging, mostly cocaine weed and alcohol and then like, you know, cold hard quitting. And then he would go back to it again. The rumor around town was that he was earning close to a million dollars per movie at this point, but that money was not going back into his pocket. He told Rolling Stone about the arrangement at home, quote, we just share its complete equality. It's a complete sharing thing. All the kids play a huge part in the democracy we have. There's nothing dictated. There's nothing set up. It's free. Also agent manager, lawyer, 25% plus taxes, like, I don't think River Phoenix himself has very much money at all. Yeah, he's also River Phoenix and he ain't paying for shit when he goes out either, especially back then. And he's like, he's hanging out with the chili peppers. He's like, you know, it's very, it's hard, but it's easy, you know, in a way. Yes, but I think as we're going to learn because of the financial situation that was set up with his dependencies, he does not have a lot of financial independence or agency of his own. So as we pointed out, everybody's he and also because he doesn't have that day to day transactional experience with money, he's just been distanced from his own money repeatedly, right? Or he's paying for something. He is not the actual one controlling the transactions that are happening in any instance. And so therefore he has no control over anything financial in his own life. Agreed. So in 1992, Phoenix starred in sneakers opposite Robert Redford, Dan Acroid, Sydney Poitier, and many, many more. It was one of his most commercially successful films. He is at the top of his game. That same year, a journalist saw River in a handful of other young actors shooting up in the bathroom of the Roxy. And this guy called up Paul Peterson, who was a former child star. He'd started a support group called a minor concern. And like at this point, many of River's friends had before Paul Peterson tried to intervene. He showed up at River Phoenix's hotel room, knocked on the door, Phoenix opened the door just enough to see who was there and then said, I don't even eat meat. I don't need your help. But by the time he was shooting the thing called love in 1993, nobody was willing to intervene, not even his mother. Iris Burton's assistant Chris Snyder says he met River in his hotel room to discuss future projects and River Phoenix yelled, I don't want to work anymore. You can tell Iris and my mother, my passion is my music. And then just moments later, quote, I have to work. After all these years, I still don't have enough money to just say fuck you to this town. The band is expensive. So is Costa Rica. Snyder also claims that River then asked how he could get a bank account that was only under his name. He talked about disappearing for a while, going to college and picking movies that his grandkids would be proud of. Finally, according to Snyder, River said, quote, I don't even like this business anymore. I don't know if I ever liked it. I wasn't exactly given a choice. I feel like he would have ended up being a great guy if he lived. I think so too. Yeah. I think he already was. Yeah. The whole point is he somehow, he had a very grounded head on his shoulders, despite being surrounded by the most outlandish ideas from birth, which most people you would just be indoctrinated into these things. Like I think if I had been born as River Phoenix, I would be trying to flirty fish Lizzy into the children of God right now because I don't have his fortitude, but clearly he could see this is right, this is wrong. I think Phoenix proved to have his priorities in the right place, like from a very young age. Yeah. But then unfortunately, there are all of these vices that come with the business and he's under this immense pressure. And so the way that you decompress, you know, becomes drugs. That's the thing. It's just the stress. Like, this is not a normal amount of stress for a child to have ever been under and he has been under it since he was like four years old. Yes. Yeah. So shortly after his birthday, River and his siblings visited his dad in Costa Rica and his father urged River to stay. He was like, please don't go back to Hollywood. Just stay with me here. We don't need more money. We're we're done. But River had signed on to make dark blood and he had committed to interview with the vampire. Oh, yeah. Because he was supposed to be Christian Slater's part. Oh, Christian Slater. No, it would have been him and Keanu again. Yeah. I know Keanu was Dracula. Yeah. Yeah. But Brad Pitt had Brad and Brad Pitt was starting to beat him out for roles. Brad Pitt had beat him out for a river runs through it. I think that Brad Pitt's a better actor. Of course he is. But we don't know what it would have ended up being. No, I know. Lizzie will do an hour with you separately. I'll fight with him about how bad I think Brad Pitt is an interview with the vampire. I think he's dead. Oh, he's dead. Oh, no. Oh, damn it. Interview, I think, is his one of his weakest movies. But he'd go on to be a pretty boy that does amazing character work. I agree with you. Lizzie, it is not. I don't know if I agree. I'm on the fence about it. Money ball. I rest my case. Money ball. Money ball. I think he's amazing in Burnham for years. He's so funny. Oh, I love him. And once upon a time in Hollywood, I unebash him. That's true. That's true. He is great in that. I don't know. He makes me mad. Well, we'll actually get back on track. I get it though. He's a nice guy. He's a nice guy. He's a good human. Yeah, exactly. I thought Sean Penn gave the best performance of the entire year. Is he a piece of shit? Yes. I'm glad you said it. Not me. Man, we're losing potential guests left and right. I'm not booking Sean Penn or Brad. He's great in it. He's obviously great in the movies. He's not a good guy. Yes. We lost Mel Gibson a few months ago. You know, we just got all the side. What movies we like? There's plenty of bad men who are extremely talented. You know, both things can be true. Yeah, oh, yeah. Look at us. Hey, Heathcliff. Heathcliff. Heathcliff. Heathcliff. A new original drama inspired by Emily Brontzies, Woodering Heights. I do not know what life is without Kathy. Before his descent into Monsters Revenge, there were three missing years, a time of possibility, freedom and a different kind of love. Escape this story. She's trapped you in. Daring Darryl McCormack as Heathcliff. Listen now, only unordable. Say audible.co.uk for terms. Because you like spotting yellow cars before your kids do. Because you like to read the score on the screen, especially when you're winning. Because there's a boot stop titions about two minutes from work. Because we have clinical experts and all the latest tech. Because your eyes deserve our ultimate eye test. Because we'll help you find your perfect style. Because of all these things, there's only one choice. Boot stop titions. See what's possible. So he had signed on, as we said, to do Dark Blood, which was directed by George Sliser. Let's talk a little bit about this production because it was a disaster. Judy Davis, who stars alongside Jonathan Price and River Phoenix, did not get along with Sliser at all. And when River Phoenix, who again, like he's very used to being a peacemaker in his family and in his career, he tried to intervene and work things out between them. And she basically turns all of her vitriol on him. She would refer to him exclusively as a frat boy and publicly said that she believed he was using drugs at the time. Sliser, however, swears without a doubt that Phoenix was completely clean during the shoot. Bobby, you look at him. He's amaciated. He looks horrible. And he's not doing a good job either. No, he's not. But so you talk about how he looks unhealthy. He was going super method with his diet. He was eating like artichokes and cactus because he's like, this is all I'd be eating in the desert. So he looks like a mess. I don't think we can say for sure either way, whether he was using something during this and the timeline system of his friends and family have backed up. He may not have been because he was like getting clean for long periods, falling back into something, getting clean again. And my understanding it was like his second girlfriend said that he was just like, he was boozing like crazy and not doing that many drugs back then. And that might be what led to him dying. Having the overdose because he had lowered his tolerance and then he went back. That's what they always say. That seems more consistent, right? With the typical overdose progression is like, it's the relapse. Right. That can be really harmful. That's what kills you because you go clean and then you go back to the old amount that you were using before. And then it's too much for your body to take. Right. And we also mentioned like, look, this is not a great performance. It's not a good movie. I don't believe it ever would have been a good movie. He was having a horrible time on this. I don't think that we can necessarily hold this performance against him or his talent. He had all of these massively long monologues and he was struggling with them hugely because again, he's dyslexic. And has never received any kind of treatment for it because his mom was like, ah, you're fine. And Slizer by his own admission was basically like, I don't care that you have a learning disability. You got to say the lines. So he's having a lot of dyslexic actors, you know, with the gobergs dyslexic, Tom cruises dyslexic. Certainly. But you know, Lizzie, the thing about dark blood that I think is so I do think it's, I think it's River Phoenix trying to find a different type of character. For himself, right? Totally. It's not working. I just try. No, and he did a similar thing in the same shepherd movie around the same time. He plays like the same type of character like pseudonate of American, you know, like dead wife. This movie, it seems so obvious to me that this role was written for a native actor. And, and it, if you put Eric's vogue, right? Yeah. He's talked about him put him in this role where Eric's vogue is so wonderfully inscrutable, right? That like his face can go from menace to charm in a moment. And it's sometimes you can't tell because it's hiding in between. That's what this character needs. River Phoenix has many talents. That is not one of them. No. And so the movie's a mess. I don't think it ever would have worked. I think the script is a mess. I think it's clearly being directed by someone who is not from the United States. And George Slizer has an amazing movie called The Vanishing from 1988, which is like one of the best, the Nality of Evil movies of all time. And it's very similar to this in like a, you know, couple on a road trip. Like we're third party intervening. So I just think so much of this is not coming together. Yeah. I agree. I was just thinking about like, because we said how like aggravating Judy Davis was on set. And I just recently watched the ref. And he said that's her Kevin Spacey and Dennis Leary. Imagine how annoying that's it. I mentioned. Oh, such a bitch of thorns. Happened. That's that. Oh my God. To be a fly on the wall. Well, this set was a mess, not just because of her. Jonathan Price said every day there was some kind of difficulty, including things like Slizer's director's chair just falling off a cliff after he got out of it. Judy Davis would do things like she would purposely distract River Phoenix during the long monologues that he was already struggling with. It's just it's bizarre. He apparently said to Jonathan Price, somebody's going to die on this film. And when he found out he was going to be working with a dead snake, he absolutely freaked out. He locked himself in a trailer and asked for a death certificate proving they hadn't murdered the snake, which they were not able to provide. I mean, good on him. Hi. Yeah. Oh, it's just one of those words just like it. You had to. Yeah, I know. You can't kill a bug on camera. No, it's how it is. They did it away. Killed you. Surely remember cannibal Holocaust. Yes. Because that was such a respectable production. It was a big deal. That's a big movie. A big movie. So he did admit to a friend on the shoot that he was quote, having a hard time keeping his head above water in this crazy business. And finally, when they wrapped in New Mexico and everyone was headed back to LA. And remember, they still have to shoot all of the interiors. Phoenix said to slice their quote, I'm going back to the bad, bad town. There were still three weeks of production left on dark blood when River went out the night before Halloween to the Viper Room. Devils died. That's right. That's night. Have you been to the Viper Room? No. Yeah. Awesome. It's surprisingly small. Yeah. Well, so was the Roxy and the Whiskey. They're all right next to each other. That makes sense because the Viper Room was not, I mean, it is kind of known because of this. It was not like an enormous venue at this point at all. No, it's extremely small. And it was just because it was owned by Johnny Depp. Right. And I remember that being a whole thing and he sold the steak. I love this. I love the sunset strip, though. Johnny Depp don't own it no more. And then he used to keep it closed every October 30th. Yeah. For an honor of River. Yep. In 1993 on October 30th, River walking rain and rivers then girlfriends Samantha Mathis walked into the Viper Room. They planned to watch River's friends, the Red Hot Chili Peppers perform. Now many sources claim that he was originally just going to drop off his siblings and leave, but he changed his mind when he heard that the chili peppers would be performing and wanted him to come join them. Oh, yeah. I mean, think about how cool fucking venue that is, too. It's a great place to see them. And there he's like very close friends with them. Oh, yeah. It's the best. And Johnny Depp sat there. Yeah. According to Mathis, she said, I didn't see anyone doing drugs, but he was high in a way that made me feel uncomfortable. I was in way over my head. Now some sources claim that he went to the bathroom, started heroin that one of his friends had offered him. But others say it was a cup of dissolved speedball and he drank it in one gulp in his table at the club. Regardless in every account, the friend who offers him either the drink or the drugs said, try this. It'll make you feel fabulous. River pretty much immediately threw up, asked what his friend had given him and then took a volume to try and call them self down. He moved outside and very quickly wound up laying on the sidewalk having a seizure. Walking Phoenix called 911. There's a very upsetting 911 call. I'm not going to play. But by the time the paramedics arrived, River Phoenix was dead. Flea was there and Flea went and he flea got into the ambulance with him and rode it to the hospital. Right. The story was all over the news, including unfortunately, the recording of walking Phoenix's 911 call. That was basically walking Phoenix's introduction to the world. Was the 911 call that he made when his brother was dying in front of him. Some person snuck into the funeral home, took a photo of the body, sold it to the national inquirer. That shit used to happen all the time back then. It's so crazy. Tupac, Chris Farley, we had to see all those bodies is horrible. This made such an impression on people because he had made it so much his image that he didn't do drugs or drink or anything. He was this, you know, poster boy for health and wellness. And here he was having overdosed on the sidewalk outside the viper room at one of his memorials. The klingons spoke about him in a way that deeply offended his ex-girlfriends, including Martha Plypton. Plypton said the people who were saying this felt tremendous guilt that they had contributed to his death. Actor Bradley Greg, who played his older brother in stand by me, apparently jumped up and yelled, River didn't have to die to be free at the funeral. His father was devastated, said that if he had only been in Hollywood, he could have saved him. Well, sir, that was a choice you made. And John, his father told the interviewer who he believed was responsible for River's death. He opted not to print the name, but here's what he said. A well-known former rock star, he's only 23, the same age as River was when he died, but he has a lot on his shoulders. I want him to know I think he's scum. You can do that for me. Print it and let him see it. He insinuated himself into my son's life and River was too sweet to eject him. River was moving away from drugs and was actually trying to get this guy off of heroin himself. Now we will never know for sure. There is a theory as to who this was that provided the drugs. I'm sure you guys can guess. Yeah, John for Shanta, you got kicked out of the chili peppers for an album too. Yeah. At the same exact time. Yes. Bingo. Yeah. And then they had to go get Navarro for an album. Right. And then like, wow, that wasn't a great album. So I don't want to get it back. Get the junkie back. The day after River passed away, the producers and director of Dark Blood reportedly told everyone on set they were being let go. And then three weeks later, they officially let go of the project entirely. Now, it's worth noting this was the same year as Brandon Lee's death on the Crow, which of course they did finish that. But what was missing from the Crow was much, much easier to replace than what was missing from Dark Blood. Because of stunt shots since like he had done all the scenes already. Yes. They were replacing stunt shots. They were replacing, you know, like a shot of him standing in a window. They weren't replacing major character scenes. Unfortunately, because of how miserable Judy Davis had been to River Phoenix, he had asked to postpone all of the love scenes because he was like, I don't even want to touch her. I need time to calm down. So Dark Blood was missing massive chunks that fully required River Phoenix's face, acting lines, everything. They did not have the technology to do this at this point. So Dark Blood belonged to the insurance company. And they reportedly paid out $5.7 million and then put the film in storage. They also sued his estate for breach of contract, which is just like, okay. River Phoenix is a state? Yes. Because he died. Yeah. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. I guess so. That sucks. But yeah. The does suck. There was a second suit for interview with the vampire also. That one was dismissed, I think, because they were able to replace him. But a couple of years later, Slizer learned that the film was going to be completely destroyed. So he arranged to have it taken out of storage. And he said that he had the full cooperation of the claims adjuster. But when that guy couldn't locate the key, Slizer just broke the lock. And he basically stole back his own film. He's such a pain in the ass. Where did this? It's just like this guy. It's like, for this movie, I know. That's a bee, anything. Well, he watched chunks of it. I watched the first 20 minutes of it. You watched it. It's a bad movie. But I will say it's River Phoenix's last project and your career isn't doing well. I could see it. Go get the movie that might get you back on the map. I see his motivation. But it wasn't a good idea because that's a really weird way to do it. I know. And he also, he had suffered an aneurysm sometime around 2008. And that's when he really decided to finish the movie. In October 2011, the Hollywood Reporter announced that River Phoenix's final film was going to be released. And it claimed that George Slizer, who at this point was 79, had edited the footage and had plans to ask Joaquin to do voice over work. That apparently did not actually ever happen. Joaquin Phoenix was like, I had no knowledge of this. We have no involvement in it. And of course, Slizer does the voice over himself. Yeah, it's sick. And he would definitely say no also. He's so emotional. Yeah, yeah. There's no magic, honestly, honestly. Someone says to you, hey, help me out. ADR your dead brother so that I can pull my ass out of Hawk. Yeah. Right. Well, it was considered for Shrek. They were considering having Chris Farley's brother. 80 to finish the film after Chris Farley died of a drug overdose. Wait, they did do this with someone. Who did they do this with where they actually had a brother come in and finish certain scenes? Paul, what's his name for Bass and Furious? Yes, Paul Locker. They used his brother to do the motion capture. Yeah. And I think it's reprehensible. I think it's ridiculous. Well, obviously, Joaquin did not provide the voice over. Slizer did it himself, added stills from the production. In 2012, Dark Blood was screened at the Netherlands Film Festival. A few more festivals in the US and abroad, but it didn't have a wide theatrical release. And I think we can all agree. It's not great. The Guardian wrote Phoenix's performance as a fragmentary and uneven as the film itself, but it has an energy about it that reminds us of why he seemed such a distinctive screen presence before his untimely death. And I want to end with a quote from Martha Plimpton, who appeared on Jesse Tyler Ferguson's podcast. She said, he was not as equipped, I think, as maybe some other people might be to handle that stuff. He was a very at heart, very innocent and a very driven by love human being. So the contradictions of Hollywood and show business were much more difficult for him. I think he would have been an incredible advocate for sobriety and for people struggling with addiction. Unfortunately, it just got him before he had a chance to do that. But yes, I miss him every single day. Oh, yeah, I think he would have been a very, very cool man. I mean, look at Joaquin and who he turned out to be. He's a fucking great man. We had weird, he'd had a weird dip. I mean, he's crazy. He's very, but he's a good man. You know, it's, you know, you could be two things. Honestly, this story, obviously, like it was interesting learning about River Phoenix, but it cast such a light on Joaquin Phoenix as well. Because, you know, and he's even said this and he was just on the Ovan's podcast and he was like, you know, I was the second son. Like River Phoenix was the guiding light for the whole family. He was the Moses. He's the prophet. He's the chosen son. So for Joaquin, he was like, pressure was off me. You know, I was just following my brother. I was like hanging out. I was, you know, my life revolved around him and then you watch him die on the sidewalk in front of you. And then what happens next? Well, it's interesting. He kind of breaks out in these pseudo little brother roles too. Like if you think about even something like Gladiator, he has that energy or you think about signs, for example, younger, you know, and I think that I look, you would never know, my guess would be that regardless of the circumstance, Joaquin actually had the greater talent of the two. I think Joaquin is an amazing actor. He's an amazing actor. Interestingly, River Phoenix actually pointed out shortly before he died, he was like, Hey, you're going to be a bigger star than I am and you need to focus on this. There's a movie that Joaquin Phoenix was in when he was young. And I can't remember the name, but he's having a phone call where he's speaking to his dad who he wants to go live with and his mom is listening and he's trying to get his dad to take him to come live with him. His dad basically says, no, it's parent, that's what it is, right? And he turns to his mom and he has to like play it off like he didn't. And he's on a ribs. That's right. And he's so good in that scene and he's so young. And you can just tell this guy, whatever it is, he has it. But anyway, back to, I will just briefly defend George Sliser's decision to release this movie, which I think it happens. He was done with his career when this happened. He was dying, right? He died in 2014, I think. And at least when I watched it the way that he set it up felt respectful where he basically said, this is an incomplete film. I've done my best to add voice over to the parts that are missing. I hope you enjoy it. Yeah, that was interesting. And that's it. And it doesn't, and it doesn't seem like they did it to try to make money. It does seem, and I'm glad that they didn't ultimately ask Joaquin, hopefully, because I agree that it would be inappropriate. But I am glad that the movie's out there. I'm sure it was the biggest disappointment of that guy's life, the director. You know, was that the fact that this movie couldn't come out? And like, I will say, like, it's not the best movie, but back then movies like this, like, oddly did well. I could see it like getting like some like, gnomes just because maybe, you know, some attention. I mean, like, it's weird enough, you know, and River Phoenix was a big enough star. But it does, I guess what you just said, Eddie, I didn't even think about it. It really does kind of make my heart hurt for the days when they used to just make movies, mid-sized movies that were just art pieces. They weren't necessarily, they were just made to be films. There was so many. It didn't have to have IP. It didn't have to have all these ridiculous shit attached to it. It's just like a normal run of the mill, $10 to $20, $50 million movie. Well, also back then, there were all these movies like that. You would go out into the desert with your wife and then someone steals her or like, something like that. There was you turn and break down. There's all those movies. You turned was great. Yeah. Well, that brings us to the end of our coverage of River Phoenix's life and death and his final film. Thank you, Henry and Ed so much for being here. This has been an absolute pleasure. Really appreciate it. And if you all haven't listened to the last podcast on the left, you absolutely have to. Is there anything else you guys would like to plug? The brighter side, my other podcast that I do with my great comedian, Amber Nelson. It's basically, it's a positivity podcast and it's a cynics look at optimism. So please come and check us out. We try to take all the shitty things in the world and find the good in them. And check out on our YouTube channel, LPN TV. We have a vampire, the masquerade role playing game play along that we have been working on that has been one of the fun or things that we I've ever been a part of. So that's all there. Go check that out on our YouTube. Yeah. And more stuff coming out on LPN TV. Yeah. Thank you both so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure. Listeners, we sure hope you're enjoying these out of frame episodes where we step a little outside our regularly scheduled programming. Next month, we're going to be covering the cotton club and because there is so much to unpack with that film, you're going to get a main episode and an out of frame that will dive into the murder of Roy Raiden and how it all ties together. If there's an obscure dark Hollywood story, you'd like us to cover on a future episode of Out of Frame. Please let us know and we'll see you back on Monday for the pilot of Game of Thrones. Go to patreon.com slash what went wrong podcast to support what went wrong and check out our website at what went wrong pod dot com. What went wrong is a sad boom podcast presented by Lizzie Bassett and Chris Winterbauer. This episode was researched and written by Jessie Winterbauer.