Okay, so what is this episode that has just popped into our feed? That was a good question, beloved member of our audience. This is an episode that I taped with a podcast called Reveal. And I want you to know about Reveal because Reveal is one of these institutions in the world of investigative journalism, one of these entities that I think people should consume even more than they do already. And I appeared on an episode of their weekly franchise called More to the Story where they had questions about how we do our jobs here, as well as what I thought about Bad Bunny and the Super Bowl and capitalism. And also the story we reported with Mother Jones and Madison Pauley about Riley Gaines, which should also check out if you have not already. Anyway, this is me talking to Reveal. I hope you enjoy. The reason to have Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl is not anything, I think, resembling a cultural, enlightened progressivism. It's merely you want an audience that can become customers. But because Bad Bunny speaks Spanish, this is now wokeism. And I'm just like, this is, it's capitalism. On this week's More to the Story, veteran sports journalist Pablo Torre. As the Super Bowl approaches, we talk about the NFL's recurring problems surrounding race and how a flood of money is transforming sports in America. Stay with us. Here's the new Citroen C3 Aircross, the perfect SUV for bears and lovers of the great outdoors. Sure, and comfort too. Inside it easily goes from five to seven seats and for you Cubs, look, it's got Apple Car Play and your favourite apps. Yes, Mr Grizzly, available in petrol, full electric or hybrid. So ready for a family adventure? The new Citroen C3 Aircross for lovers of the wilderness and everyday comfort. Now with a £1,500 electric car grant. Idol money lies in your current account, picking crumbs out of its belly button, wondering, should I eat them? But when you start investing with Monzo, your money's always busy. It turns on regular investments, invests your spare change and tops up your stocks and shares isa. It even helps you make sense of risk and return. Monzo, the bank that gets your money moving. You could get back less than you invest. Monzo current account required UK residents 18 plus T's and C's apply. Grab the Maltesers, because that's the ping-pong-pong of Priya being added to yet another group chat. This time it's Bristol High Reunion Hall. Wine emoji, dance emoji, poke-tongue emoji. Apparently to arrange a holiday with 15 women who haven't hung out since jeggings. Shove some more Maltesers in because we're still debating the chat name. And frankly, have more chance of shaving a unicorn in a phone booth than the plans making it out of this group chat. Maltesers, look on the light side. We're on June 20, 2009. This is more to the story. I'm Al Letzin. Just a few decades ago, investigative sports journalism was thriving. There were high profile TV shows, national magazines, and intrepid reporters around the country who went deep and connected the dots on some of the most important issues in sports. But today, many of those outlets are gone or shells of what they once were. And that's meant that sports in the US, one of the most dominant elements of American culture, has often been left without probing journalism that shines a light on athletes, owners, leagues, and the tens of billions of dollars they generate every year. One of the reporters who stepped into that void is Pablo Torre. Previously a writer at Sports Illustrated and an ESPN contributor, Pablo is now the host of the podcast Pablo Torre Finds Out. It's an investigative show that has broken big stories in sports that had gone unnoticed or under-reported. And Pablo says understanding sports in America, especially today, is easy. You just got to follow the money. Pablo, welcome to the show. Al, thanks for having me. A very kind introduction. I'm curious if you can just rewind the clock a little bit and tell me your superhero origin story. Like, how did Pablo Torre get sucked into the world of sports? Very suggesting that my rippling athletic physique is not self-evidently my origin story Al. You know, like, we're podcasts and they can't see you, so I just wanted you to kind of lay it out for people so that they understood. It's a 14 pack. That's what it's obvious through my sweater. I grew up loving sports because I am the first person in my family to have been born in America. And so for me, I have an articulated sort of idea of this. It wasn't apparent back then, but if you ask me the question in those terms, I answer in the sense of sports was my passport to knowing what this country is like and could still be like, which is to say I got to talk to people who had nothing in common with me and sort of like microwave friendships and social intimacy. And I loved, you know, I grew up watching the 92 Dream Team and Michael Jordan. They were superheroes to me. And so in that way, I got to realizing, oh, wait a minute, yeah, I love playing like pick up basketball and stuff, but developing a sense of the lore of sports was this social connectivity that nothing else provided. And then when you combine that with a general desire to figure out, okay, how do I express myself and that's going to be through writing and how do I want to spend my time? It turns out it involves like writing down statistics, pathetically in a notebook for myself as if those numbers need to be preserved like Talmudically by me for the benefit of like posterity. It radicalized me into being someone who just like loved sports a lot. Yeah. I remember when I was much younger. One of my first major jobs was I was salesman slash service provider for a knife sharpening business at random as hell. But we used to sharpen carbide saw blades and in Northeast Florida, I would go out there and meet these guys and they didn't really like me because I'm a young black kid from, you know, the big city coming to their place. And I found that the only way that I could communicate with them was getting to know sports. And I wasn't really that into sports at that point in my life, like in my early twenties, but I began to like study sports. So when I go there, I could have something to talk about with them and ultimately like service their blades, sell them new blades and all of that stuff. And it worked like I got really good at sports because I needed to make a paycheck. And I think what you just said like it triggered that memory to me is that the bridge to talking to somebody who was so different than I was with sports. Well, they're heirlooms. They're like family heirlooms. And so if you can speak that language and immediately skip several steps and start complaining about the same things, you know, you can immediately just start like making fun of the kicker who missed that field goal or the quarterback who chokes. I mean, I mean, I find myself, you know, at wedding receptions in Fayetteville, Arkansas or out West at Berkeley, talking to people, right? You're sort of like going through the matrix politically and sociologically through our country to the extreme ends. And for better and for worse, one of the things that remains even vaguely monocultural is sports is football, especially lately. And so I just find that I'm doing the same things I did when I was a kid showing up, trying to figure out, can I really relate to or become friends with these kids who don't look like me at all? And I'm doing it still. Except now I have on account of again, the very self-evident musculature. I have the authority of someone who like comes from the world of sports, which is a real trip for me, man. Yeah. I wish our viewers could see you because you're just a straffling specimen. I mean, I guess it's... I'm going to keep it nice because I just don't know what I'm going to do. The interesting thing about sports is that it definitely is a bridge to other people, but also sports are inherently political. And it feels today where we are, is it's even more political or at least the magnifying glasses on it in a way that like... I mean, everything in America now has been politicized. So it feels like there's a magnifying glass on it in a way that I'm sure before me it was political as well. I mean, I've seen the pictures of, I think it was the 68 Olympics. Mexico City. Yeah, Mexico City. John Carlos. Right, exactly. So obviously it was political then, but also in this modern era, when I think about politics, it feels like Colin Kaepernick is definitely a bookmark, a place where you can see the specific polarization of America around sports issue. It's a reference point for so many people which makes it politically useful. So there's a reason why Donald Trump, for instance, despite... And this is my scouting report on him. Dude doesn't really know sports, but he knows enough to hang. And so what does that mean? It means that he can show up at a place and do a little bit of small talk in a way that, by the way, JD Vance cannot. He's got a donut counter like, dude, that's when you talk about the Jets right now. That's when you talk about like the Alabama football team. That's where you do that stuff and you really can't do it. Donald Trump can get away with pretending like he is of sports because he can wear the costume well enough. And the reason I say and go to that point specifically is because sports are being used politically all of the time. And the fact, and I think about this with the 68 Olympics, actually, the power of them is that people don't watch sports for politics. And therefore, when politics comes up organically or otherwise, they're forced to confront politics. And so the sort of like reaction to Colin Kaepernick, to two Olympians from America, to black men raising their fists in the air for seven seconds, such that we're still talking about it decades and decades and decades later, it's specifically because they provoked an audience that wasn't asking to see this stuff, to have to think about it. And that's the power of sports being the big tent we're all climbing inside of for other reasons is that the politics are going to be there because the people there end up expressing themselves authentically or simply because they can't take it anymore. And that's an incredible platform that isn't granted to them, but sports allows them to have it until of course, the president says, get these sons of bitches out of the stadium. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the thinking of sports and politics feels like it's a nice bridge to walk across to talk about your reporting on Riley Gaines. So Riley Gaines has become a force on the side of the right and when it comes to trans issues, but she didn't always start there and you're reporting along with Mother Jones like kind of revealed that. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, so the reporting that we did with Madison Pauley, who's the excellent reporter, Mother Jones, it was a story not even about the issue, which is should there be trans athletes included in women's sports, which is a topic I've exhaustively or the very least I've done a lot of work to discuss on my show, Publatory Fines Out. This one is about the cottage industry of why sports are politically useful, as we were just saying. So it turns out, and the elections we have experienced have proven this, that the trans female athlete is what's called an 80-20 issue for a lot of Republicans. They seem to win 80% of the time by fear mongering. And Riley Gaines, who very famously now tied for fifth place with Leah Thomas at NCAA swimming championship, and objected to the fact that she, Riley Gaines, got the smaller of the fifth and sixth place trophies because it was a tie, and so they didn't really know which one to give to which athlete. And so she got the smaller one and turned that into not just a revenge, but a career and a political platform such that she is in real intimate connection with not just the White House, but the superstructure of political organizations that crop up to turn her cause as this opposed victim into a way to truly victimize trans people in America. And what do I mean by that? You follow the rhetoric, Al. And the rhetoric starts, and this is what we reported in the episode, the rhetoric starts with her being even understanding of how Leah Thomas herself, the trans athlete, is merely existing in a structure that she Riley Gaines objects to, which is the NCAA and how they deal with trans athletes and their inclusion. But over time, as she is goaded in interviews, which we play on tape for the listener, you see that whether it's the Daily Wire or Clay Travis at Outkick or Fox News and Tucker Carlson and all of again, the Mortal Kombat sort of ladder towards the heights of conservatism in the modern era, she's goaded in and incentivized to increase the temperature of the rhetoric such that Leah Thomas is allegedly an abuser. Leah Thomas is forcing the innocent girls in these locker rooms like Riley Gaines to basically view male genitalia as if they, the female athletes like Riley Gaines are being sexually abused against their will. And the rhetoric is as insane as that sounds. It's all on tape. There are comparisons to Larry Nasser, who is the Michigan State Doctor, who is responsible for the largest sexual abuse scandal in American sports history. Those are the equivalences that are being made online. And parallel to that, money is flowing in. Riley Gaines gets paid and we go through the charity and the nonprofit in the nine nineties, those forms that sort of show how she's getting paid more and more every year to do the work of a political party that is using trans people as stepping stones to win elections. And it's horrific. Not long after your episode about Riley Gaines, she responded to you. She made a whole podcast that basically like tore into your reporting. You know, she pointed fingers at you. What's your response after listening to that? Or did you listen to it? I listened to a good amount of it. I won't say that I'm a subscriber to Riley Gaines's show. Although apparently she's very successful at media in general. What I would point out is that the story, the real teeth of the story, which I haven't mentioned yet is that as Riley Gaines was talking about how sexual abuse was being visited upon these, quote unquote, biological females by trans athletes. There was in fact an actual sexual abuse scandal happening on her own college swimming team at the University of Kentucky. And the person perpetrating that allegedly was her head coach and quote unquote, best friend, Lars Jorgensen, whom she has said one tweet about in the entirety of her rise to power in American politics. And so I'm not saying that I have a guide or mandatory instruction manual for how you should deal with a story like that. If one of your closest friends, I'm going to write about in your book and you praise have praise frequently ends up being someone who is that horrific allegedly. But the story we reported was fundamentally told through the perspective of Riley Gaines's own teammates on her college swimming team, who fundamentally couldn't take her rhetoric anymore, given her silence about an actual story of sexual victimization that she didn't address. When we come back, Pablo examines how the rise of sports betting is threatening the integrity of sports itself. You can now bet on obscure athletes to underperform in any given game. And what that has done is created incentives for those obscure athletes to do the easiest thing, which is to not be good at sports. Before we continue our conversation with Pablo, I want to remind you that there is a really easy way that you can keep up with all the important work we're doing here. Reveal. You can sign up for a free newsletter. Just go to reveal news.org slash newsletter to receive your weekly email reminding you about all of our good reporting. We have to stay connected now more than ever. All right, thank you. And we'll be back in a minute with more from Pablo Torre. Here's the new Citroen C3 Aircross, the perfect SUV for bears and lovers of the great outdoors. Sure, and comfort too. Inside, it easily goes from five to seven seats and for you Cubs, look, it's got Apple CarPlay and your favorite apps. Yes, Mr. Grizzly available in petrol, full electric or hybrid. So ready for a family adventure? The new Citroen C3 Aircross for lovers of the wilderness and everyday comfort. Now with a £1,500 electric car grant. Maltesers bunnies, they're back. But like a hot person on an escalator going the other way, they're not here for long. They're a temporary thrill, like those two days you were a morning person or a bank holiday or that TV show that criminally only got one season or even that 24 hour post where your bum looked outrageously good. Some treats you just have to enjoy while they last. Maltesers bunnies, here but only for Easter. Maltesers, look on the light side. Get three months half price when you switch to an unlimited sim with three. That means quick streaming, faster downloads and more money to spend on the things you love. Join the UK's fastest 5G network and get your unlimited sim today. Buy now in store or see 3.co.uk. Unlimited 24 month light plan. Proof of switching required based on Ucla's BTest Intelligence data to age 2025. All rights reserved. Subjected credit checks and terms. This is more to the story. I'm Al Letson and we're back with investigative sports journalist Pablo Torre. From my viewpoint from 20,000 feet away, it seems to me that at least at one time that the NBA seem to be way more progressive than the NFL. I'm specifically thinking about like during the time of Black Lives Matter, I think that the NBA reflects kind of like what's going on in the country more than the NFL does. During Black Lives Matter, NBA kind of like really embraced it. You don't see that stuff anymore because you really don't see Black Lives Matter anywhere anymore. But it seems like the NFL had a really hard time wrapping their heads around it and really pushing against it. Is that the way I'm looking at it? Does that feel accurate to you? That's how it felt. You know, there was a time like 10, 15 years ago, even proceeding like the summer of 2020 when the NFL was seen because of concussions, because of its own slate of scandals, domestic violence and otherwise. The ways in which Roger Godel, the commissioner, seemed like a top-down relative autocrat compared to Adam Silver, who was very, again, on a relative basis, pro-labor, pro-player empowerment. It seemed like the NBA and the NFL, the graphs were going to switch over and the NBA would be the stock you'd want to own. And what's happened since then, I think, is that the NBA has truly followed the money. In a way that abdicated anything resembling like a relative progressive platform. And it's not to say that the NFL now is itself like leaning left. It's merely to say that I think both sports decided that there is so much money available to us that if we cater to the mainstream or our understanding of it and we don't alienate the people who don't want this stuff, these politics in our sports, will we better off for it? And so I think the mirror that you're seeing in terms of like, why isn't anything? It's kind of stunning, honestly. So to go from the summer of 2020 in which like protest is the default assumption of what is an appropriate response to the administration of Donald Trump, now going, now going to general silence as the administration that we're watching in the news do things that are so even further beyond the pale. It's a reflection of, I think, capital winning. Yeah. Of, by the way, labor realizing that if, unfortunately, if there's this much money available for them on the table, why are we going to risk shaking the table? It's complete capitulation with the idea that if you don't make noise and you just go along to get along, A, you'll keep being able to get along, but B, you'll be rewarded by that financially. Yes. Look, in sports right now, I think there is this dynamic with politics where if you follow the money, you realize everyone's going to the same places. And so we're living in this time, you know, you referenced my career at ESPN. I got to see from the inside what the cable television economy, the meteorite steals billions upon billions of dollars sort of gave rise to, which was the large jazza professional sports. And now because that same economy has been disrupted by the internet, they're looking, sports broadly is looking to the same places that this administration is looking for money. They're looking to the Middle East. They're looking at crypto. They're looking at private equity. They're looking at Silicon Valley. And the through line through those entities that I just mentioned is not, wow, we really love free speech. Now they will claim it. Yeah. They will pretend we're the costume of we are free thinkers, but the proof is in how everyone is just chasing where capital is now available. And that's been an incredibly, I would say, jarring and sobering reminder of what happens when the goal is to preserve being, yeah, a cash machine for lots of very famous public people. There is a whole uproar over Bad Bunny being named the halftime performer at the Super Bowl. Why does the NFL seem to have these recurring problems surrounding race? So that story is very funny to me because I think the NFL's prime director in this case was outreach, right? And it's money, right? So like outreach meaning more money. So and I think it reflects your question earlier of like, who gets to be the outsider because Bad Bunny for those not familiar is like the biggest international recording artist on the planet. And so the reason to have Bad Bunny at the Super Bowl is not anything, I think, resembling a cultural enlightened progressivism or anything resembling that. It's merely you want an audience, you want to reach out to an audience that can become customers, but because Bad Bunny speaks Spanish, this is now woke ism. And I'm like, this is it's capitalism. That's what it is. And people are grafting culture war onto a financial story to me. And right now it's very convenient to accuse again, even the NFL of not sticking to sports because they got a Puerto Rican dude performing at the Super Bowl. Yeah. Question for you. Yeah. Question for you. I don't follow college sports much at all. But what I do know is that like money has now come into the picture in a way that it had never been in the past. I mean, it feels like, you know, in the past, players were being exploited and now players are actually getting paid. So so I mean, I think that that fixed one part of it. Do you think that that money is ruining college sports? Yeah, it's a really good question. And there's no simple answer to me. It's important to know that college football is in fact the second most popular sport in America. It's that popular. And the reason it's popular is because a people love football. Period. People would watch a football sitting on a table. But the second thing about football in the college context is that in college football, there's this presumption that we're watching students and the lie has always been that these are not employees simultaneously. And so you got to lead with the fact that college football is a multi-billion dollar industry that only recently started permitting payments to the labor that are responsible for the billions of dollars that all of these conferences and these executives and these coaches are making. And so first reaction is I'm glad that money is finally entering college football, such that it could go to the labor. But at the same time, it's happening in such a half measure, unregulated way without contracts, still wearing the costume of these are marketing payments as opposed to employment deals that it is welcoming a level of chaos and just disorder, which is threatening, I think, the long term viability of a product because the institution of college football wants to remain college, but it doesn't know how to reconcile that with paying athletes. Yeah. So my father is from Pleasantville, New Jersey, which is right outside of Atlantic City. And when I was a young man, I would come down and visit. And it was right around the time when Atlantic City went from like, at least from my point of view, went from like little small casinos into like Trump coming down there, making all these big casinos. And I watched how gambling affected a lot of people, both in my family and around my family. And so for me, gambling has always been something that I stay far away from. But I've noticed recently that whenever I am on TikTok, Instagram or whatever, I am constantly seeing gambling ads for sports betting, which I never saw before because it seems to me that it came out of the shadows. How did it come out of the shadows? And are we seeing that affecting the actual play of the sports? Yeah, I mean, there's so much here. This is the story of legalized gambling occurring on a state by state basis. So it's not federally legal. It's not for the entire country, but state by state, you've seen the opening of the market. And the legal gambling, sports gambling operators have innovated something that the bookie around the corner didn't used to, or even Atlantic City sports books or Vegas sports books didn't used to, which is they now have, and I call it, you know, basically a cheesecake factory, long menu of bets you can make on any given game. And they include micro bets, what are called prop bets, which is to say hyper specific things that you can now bet on basically financial instruments that are so obscure and complicated that they have in totality created one of the largest revenue drivers for legal sports books, because these are things that are deeply tempting and deeply addicting along the lines of people trying to play the lottery, because if you hit one and then another, and then you put them together in a what are called parlays like multi step bets that have these multiplier effects, you have, yes, possible windfalls that are happening, I would say, at a time in which our literacy around probability is not better than it used to be. And so people have really fooled themselves into thinking that this is, and it's again, a lot like some of this happening in the country, that this is their ticket to the economic windfall that our actual society is not otherwise apparently giving to them. This is the path to get rich quick. And what has it done to sports itself? It's absolutely mutated incentives. So briefly, like these prop bets are things that are so small, but so universal that you can now bet on obscure athletes to underperform in any given game. And what that has done is created incentives for those obscure athletes to do the easiest thing, which is to not be good at sports. So I could do it. Even I, even I, the greatest athlete you've ever met. I know, I know. I was about to say Pablo, come on. Even I could run an inside information betting scheme in which I underperform and let people who bet on my underperform its profit. And so the level of scandal that is now emerging from the shadows. And there have been FBI investigation that we've covered on our show and lots of problems for the leagues in terms of like, OK, we're again, drinking from that fountain of legalized gambling money while also watching our products have a giant conflict of interest that we don't know how to solve. Yeah, it's leading to a really dangerous direction, absent regulation. And that's not even getting to the medical concerns, which I think are worth considering, even as I am not someone who thinks it should be outlawed, but I am someone who thinks that we need to disclose as accurately and as transparently as we can. Like, what are the actual harms here as the experiments being conducted on Americans as we speak? On a personal note, as somebody who is deep in this stuff and, you know, I mean, you kind of know where all the bodies are buried. How does that affect you as a fan of sports? Like, do you still tune in just as a fan or is it all work now? So personally, I tend to put on sports and almost like absorb it through osmosis as background noise a lot while I'm investigating someone in sports. So it's funny, like I used to be engaged with games because I was just there to be present watching the game. And now, because I think the lane I'm in is so large and otherwise unoccupied, there is an unlimited number of subjects that I'm curious about that require me to do research and to make calls and to think about the bigger stories that connect to larger issues. And so I don't watch sports in the same way. I will say that I love going to live events because there is nothing replacing that feeling to me of being present alongside, by the way, people who politically disagree with me, but we're all there under a common cause to enjoy this experience. I think that is so rare on all of the levels that we've already referred to that I try to be off my phone, obviously, if I'm going to actually go to a sporting event and be there as a fan. But even there, I mean, my answer, now that I'm real, I'm on my own therapy couch now, Al. My own answer could not help but be sort of like sociologically bigger picture. And so my curse and I think the blessing of what I do now professionally is that I still get to love sports and I've never engaged with sports more, but it's just not in the way that I grew up learning to love sports as a kid. I'm like, I find myself thinking like, what does it mean to be a serious person? What does it mean to be an adult in the room who's like, is anyone else going to point this shit out? And it turns out that like the gift and the curse is that I think it's my job to at this point. Yeah, you're doing hard hitting investigative journalism. But some critics say that sometimes you're pushing stories too far, like you're inserting yourself as a character and sensationalizing the stories. How do you respond to that criticism? Yeah, I mean, I exist on the internet and I exist in a desert of sports journalism and I grew up reading and then working at places like Sports Illustrated and ESPN Magazine and I watched a program like Real Sports, the foremost investigative news magazine on television at HBO. And those places don't exist through our zombie versions of themselves now. Sports reporting, especially investigative sports reporting, under the previous way of doing it, couldn't support itself. And so the question I face every day is, how do I make the reporting I'm doing, some of which you've kindly referred to already in our conversation, how do I make sure that that doesn't get dismissed? How can I puncture an echo chamber? How can I make sure that the media person, me, the host of a show also does the job that's required of us, which is also being a billboard for the work we do. And anybody who runs a Twitter account against their will knows this feeling. I think for me, what that has extended into logically is, yes, leaning into the idea that if I'm going to investigate a story, it's also on me to be the defender of my reporting. And also at times, an adversarial character in trying to hold the subject of my reporting to account, because often I'm not just talking about Riley Gaines. I'm talking about some of the richest people on earth who come to sports for all of the reasons we've said, including, by the way, to launder their own images and to hide things from a public in ways that I think are more flagrant and indefensible than they've ever been before, given the levels of inequality in our country. And so for me, if I can do that, it also means that I need to be the one like tooting my own horn. And it also means that I need to convince young people who are on the internet that the sports reporting I like to do isn't just vegetables, right? Like I'm also melting some cheese on it for them, which means that I'm here to like laugh and make jokes and exist on the internet. And yes, be a character. And that is not the way that this craft, this job was taught, but I think it's an evolution that's been an adaptation. Yeah, I think we need new definitions. I think that the world has changed. And the way that you and I do our jobs has to change in order to grab ears and to grab people's minds and hearts and all of that stuff. Like it can't be the same way it was done 20 years ago, because the world is vastly different. Yeah, I mean, look, there's a world in which I would be a lot happier and a lot less stressed and my family would be less worried about me psychologically and otherwise. If I was just able to put something out of the world under a byline, and it would sort of make its way down the river of discourse, and I didn't have to be the guy flashing a neon sign on this weird like kind of torturing various metaphors on this weird like motorboat, I'm loudly revving up to make sure that you know I'm coming. But that's what it's like to compete in a media ecosystem that's attention driven. Yeah, yeah. Pablo, before I let you go, are there any stories in sports that we should be keeping our eye on? Man, I've realized as I've tried to answer your questions that I think we need to see sports as the story of money. And so in my reporting on my show, Pablo Torre finds out I've been doing this investigation to the Los Angeles Clippers and Steve Ballmer, one of the 11 now richest people in the world in the ways in which he's been circumventing the rules around fair play in his sport by hiding secret payments that we've reported in these alleged schemes that have been basically ways to break rules to spend money that allow him to get the thing that he can't just buy, which is a championship. So the story of money, what do I mean? I simply mean that the people who own sports have never been richer, and they're coming from Silicon Valley, especially lately. And what these people want is again, if I may be simplistic for a second, is the ability to finally be the jock, the cool kid at school, the famous person sitting courtside who gets to be praised because they're owning the coolest thing in the most exclusive club that they can join. But what they're realizing is that they can't just buy the championship, the trophy. In sports, unlike in business, you can even argue, there is something resembling a meritocracy that is enforced and cared about by fans, let alone the officials that are meant to tend the store of what it is to have integrity in professional sports. And so we're watching this conflict between lots and lots and lots of money and what they're using that money to do, which is get the stuff that they can't buy. And so how do they do it? They break more rules. So I just think we should follow the money. Pablo Torre, thank you so much for coming on. Al, thank you for not being intimidated by, of course, my physical problems. I was intimidated the whole time. What are you talking about? That was Investigative Sports Journalist and host of Pablo Torre Finds Out, Pablo Torre. You can subscribe to his show and listen to hundreds of Pablo's interviews, investigations, and intriguing sports stories on your favorite podcast app. You got to do what I'm telling you. The podcast is excellent. Plus, if you like this show, then be sure to check out our January 24th episode of Reveal. It's all about the debate over transgender athletes, which includes a story reported in partnership with Pablo Torre Finds Out. You can find it in the reveal feed. Lastly, a reminder, we are listener supported. That means listeners like you. You can help us thrive by making a gift today. Just go to revealnews.org slash gift. Again, that's revealnews.org slash gift. And thank you. Today's show was produced by Josh Sanburn and Karma Kirk Allison. Brett Myers edited the show, The Music and Engineering Help by Fernando Ma'manio Arruda and Jay Breezy. Mr. Jim Briggs. I'm Al Lettzeny. You know, let's do this again next week. This is more to the story. 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