Untying Ourselves w/ Gerontologist & Domme Dr. Nicole Marcione | Szn. 4 Ep. 2

Hi, it's Dr. Jen Kennedy. I'm a sexologist and couples therapist. The Pleasure Project podcast is about sex and relationships. So this includes discussions on desire, dysfunction, dissatisfaction, exploration of all things sex related. So sometimes I'll do toy reviews and we'll look at trends. And sometimes I'll also enlist other experts. We'll increase your insight and enhance your pleasure. So tune in. This episode is about dismantling myths around aging and sex and exploring new pathways to power and confidence. I speak with Dr. Nicole Marschione about her work as both a gerontologist and a dominatrix. She tells us about a field trip to a dungeon and how a session as a dom parallels how many people unconsciously live every single day. So tune in. Okay, so welcome back. My guest today is Dr. Nicole Marschione. She is an expert in longevity, sensuality, sex and aging. She is a PhD in gerontology. She works with clients all over the globe supporting them to feel engaged, powerful and sexually confident. Her sexy, smart, aging philosophy combines the science of longevity with the art of sensual living, shifting the current paradigm around aging. So thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. We recently met, we were at a speaker training and I loved you immediately. And I, yeah, I just, I was so, I was, I loved your energy and also your focus. I just appreciated sort of your embracing both the aging piece and the sexuality piece. And I said, ooh, I need to have her on the podcast. So I'm excited for this conversation. I am excited too. And the same thing when I met you, I think the first thing you said is, you know, I'm a sex therapist and work with people, you know, 40 and up or something like that mostly. And I was like, we're going to have a lot in common. And so I think so many, so many people kind of forget about sex and aging, or maybe they don't forget, but feel like it's just something that's never going to come to fruition, or maybe it just kind of goes away. And yet you and I, and I hoping more voices can shift that thinking into making this the best time of our lives to tap into our sensuality and sexuality, wherever that may be on the continuum. Yeah, it's like, we've lived all this life, we've got all this wisdom, and now's the golden time, right? Let's do it. Exactly, exactly. Being more accepting, I think that's one of the biggest things is like aging is inevitable. So we need to accept that. And we can accept also that things are going to change, but we don't have to accept that things are going to necessarily be worse or decline or, you know, it's just different and really being comfortable or I'm sure you're working with your patients, like comfortable with that transition process, because it can be scary, or maybe people think it might be a little too much work, or or something like that. And that's where we come in to be guides, or, you know, hold people's hands, or just give new ideas, or, you know, just to sprinkle in a little bit more magic into our everyday life that people, I think, especially women tend to forget about, because they've been serving others for so much, you know, for so long, their families, their career, their whatever, spouse, you know, helpers, and we've been supportive, role, and it's like, yeah, when's our turn? Or maybe not even when's our turn, like maybe people don't, women don't even think they have like a right to the turn or deserve a turn, especially in the world we live in, you know, women stepping into their sexual power, people kind of give you the side eye, like what's that all about? Yeah. So, okay, first of all, what is sexy smart aging? So, when I first got out of my PhD program, which was all about the aging over lifespan, gerontology, and I was focusing on longevity in general, kind of, you know, the usual movement, nutrition, sleep, stress, nauseam, like we've all been told we need to move more and eat better. But what I was finding is like, no matter how much yoga you do, or how much meditation and you say, or how many green juices you drink, like if you're not happy or feel good in your body, like physically, literally yourself, and if you've been ignoring your truest desires for probably most of your life, again, it doesn't matter all these other health things that you're doing, you're still going to feel a void or an emptiness or resentfulness or some sort of nagging. And usually that comes out in, you know, being upset with your kids or your partner or your job or your boss or your team. And actually, it's us turning inward and asking like, what brings me pleasure? What are my desires? What is the magic I have to offer to myself? Like I've been offering it to everyone else, what can I offer to myself? So that kind of made me shift in my coaching from the usual exercise, nutrition type stuff to looking more into how do we tap into our sensuality? How do we learn to listen to our intuition? And then how do we start seeing ourselves as really sexual beings even in midlife? And that doesn't mean, you know, you have to be out or like have orgasms every night or day or morning or, you know, if you do, that's fantastic. But just stepping into that energy, because when a woman can harness that, then all of a sudden we become our energy just shifts when we know what that euros or sexual energy is. And so that's where I was explaining this to a friend once and she goes, Oh, it sounds like it's like sexy smart. Like, and then that was the other thing, because a lot of doctors will kind of who go into sex work, sex work, sex therapy, whatever, kind of leave behind the science part of it and just kind of get into the sexiness of it. And I didn't want to do that either. Like I've worked really hard to get my PhD. And so when she said, you know, sexy smart, those two together, I was like, Oh my gosh, yes, sexy, aging, no one's talking about all of that together. Or maybe not no one, but very few people. And so that's when I thought I want to blend the science of longevity, which is like the hot topic on trend. But we have been in the field for a very long time. But with our essential living, because if it's just all the science, it's really boring. But if it's all just the sexy stuff, it's not boring, but maybe it's not as useful or we want. Yeah, we're not just trying to not age, right? Everybody's got to be in this place of like, we're aging, but how do we do this well? And how do we do it in a way that feels good? Right? I've got all these, I've got all these vibrant people who are in their 50s and 60s coming to see me, and they're trying to live their best life. They're not just trying to get through. No, exactly. It's a lot of high quality and wanting to have good sex lives, good quality lives in general. Yeah, I think well, two things that come to mind is one, I hate the phrase aging gracefully, like ballerinas are graceful, like I want us to age optimally, boldly, like full of like just audacity, you know, forget the gracefulness. And then I just think like anti-aging, when you're saying people don't want to, you know, try to resist aging, like there is no resisting it, anti-aging is bullshit. Like there's only one alternative to aging and that's death. So like probably most of us rather live than die, but if that's the case, then we need to figure out, okay, how do I do this in a way that feels delicious and isn't just like, oh, the best is behind me, or I'm never going to be able to enjoy myself again, or others. That's just not the case. But we're fed that, especially as older women. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about your professional journey. Like why did you go into this particular, why did you get this PhD and what led you to your current place? Okay, so I'll give you the brief. I was raised in a cult and I didn't get out till I was 30. And so I had a lot of sexual repression and I also didn't go to college when normal, like the normal timing of it all because I wasn't allowed. So when I was 36, I took my first community college class and I just had this real intrigue in aging because I had been teaching Pilates. I still do a little bit and I saw that how people moved affected how they age and vice versa. And so I decided to continue on. I transferred to USC, University of Southern California, and I studied gerontology and then I just kept going, going, going. And then I ended up with a PhD about a decade later. And so I started this coaching business. I did not want to go into academia. Wait, hold on. Wait, first of all, raised in a cult. Like what? Hold on. Like that's, well, of course that's not normal. So any of your listeners, if you have that, please. Yeah, that creates a whole like, huh, okay. So you had this whole delayed, yeah, this delayed adulthood kind of, right? I mean, and kind of sheltering. It created a lot of like, you didn't experience things. And then your sexuality was one of those that didn't really get to bloom. And so you had this sort of awakening becoming. And it sounds like you wanted to go get some education as well as just experiencing and that that bloom happened. Wow. Okay, mid 30s. Yeah. Well, and even then, like the awakening was more in my head than in my body. Like even through, I would say, even though I left the cult, I still hadn't tapped into my sexuality or my sexual energy. A little bit maybe, but it was, it was a piece of me that just seemed unimportant, if you will. And so when I went into my academic journey, as you know, like you are, well, maybe not as, maybe not in a program around human sexuality, but in the program I was in, like it was very, you were in your head, you know, there was no feeling about anything, you were getting your PhD and you were studying evidence and science. And so it was almost a continuation of sexual suppression, but in a different way. And yeah. And so it wasn't until I got out of that and realized a few years, it was pretty recent a few years ago, I decided to take a sexual wellness certification course, six months long. And it was mostly for me to help my clients, but you know how it always is, it like helps ourselves. And so it was always about self too. Yeah, exactly. And so I realized wow, I had a lot of work to do around my own embodiment and sensuality. And I had realized, like I had a lot of, well, and I'll just say this because who knows, it might help your listeners. Like I was in a, I was in a relationship for 15 years, it was emotionally abusive, and I had a lot of pain with sex. So I didn't like sex, but I was doing it. But like I went to doctors, PTs, like all the professionals and everyone was like, nothing's wrong with you. I mean, obviously you're feeling pain, but there's no like structural things. There's no tumors. There's no, we don't know. And I was just like, okay, well maybe I'm just not a sexual being. Like I seriously thought maybe I'm just asexual. I'm not diagnosed with that or whatever. But yeah, that there's, there's something you're having genital pelvic pain penetration disorders, what we're likely, but it's psychological because there's likely something else happening in your body, in your mind, in your relationship. Yeah. And once I realized that and I ended up leaving the relationship, my body was trying to protect me from it. Your body's saying no, your body's saying no. I thought you was like, get the fuck out of here. You know what I mean? And so, making the certification course really helped me learn about not only my own sexuality, but it introduced me to something very important in my journey. And that was a month long module on trauma informed kink. And I didn't even know what that meant. I had no idea. And then we dove into kink and BDSM and how it could help different things. And I dove in and I realized, oh my gosh, this is something amazing because throughout my growing up, not just religiously, especially religiously, but also culturally, because I'm half Italian and half Mexican. So women in those roles, it's just a submissive role, like your duty is to serve everyone except yourself in that culture and then especially in that religion. So here I learn about BDSM and kink and in particular femdom, which is female domination, like a dominatrix, where other people, especially men, are submissive and the women are in power and control and it's through their sexuality. Wait, hold on, hold on. This is possible? And this is allowed and encouraged and even and even paid for. Yeah. So I ended up taking two dominatrix courses. And now I use a lot of that in my coaching of women. And I'm not saying it's the only way, but it is one way that I feel like is not being talked about. And so now I really, if you look at my social media, like I want this to demarginalize, I don't want it to be taboo. I want us to talk about how being tied up or blindfolded or spanked can actually be a lot of fun and not just fun, but healing because I had a lot of physical abuse when I was young. I was beaten by a belt and I was always afraid of getting spanked and now I love it. Yeah, right? It's like because the frame is different and because there's consent and there's pain can actually be pleasurable when there's buy-in and when there's sometimes a positive association with it. Yeah, and when there's control over it. And so what I found out, you asked me about my journey and we started way back, but professionally that's where I am now with coaching mostly women by work with men too around how to not just tap into their own bodies, but also be playful and have fun and redefine what sex means as we age and that it doesn't have to focus on the genitals, it doesn't have to focus on orgasm and like it can end up there, but those aren't the only things and the different ways to bring in that novelty. And to let everyone know, don't worry, I'm not asexual, like I have great sex now. And I was just like, what is this body? Like I didn't even realize this body could be, you know, so capable of so many things. And it's just been a really fun, exciting journey. And I just want this for everybody, you know. Yeah. It's so interesting too. It's like, I mean, this isn't like a job job, right? Like let me apply for coaching you as an older person, you know, in your journey of figuring this out. And I'm a, you know, gerontologist who also sometimes functions as a dominatrix, you know, it's like, wait, what? Talk about like write your own job description. Exactly. Well, I only had one, so I'm 50, I just turned 50 in June. And I've only had one corporate job and I lasted 10 months. So that probably tells you something about. Yeah. Yeah. This is not, not where you belong. It's incredible though, like this, and I remember you saying that you were doing a dungeon field trip and I was like, wait, what? What? Can I go on that? What does that mean? What does that involve? Tell me, tell me more about that. Okay. So I call them, I have something in my eye, I call them kinky field trips. And like two years ago, someone told me I should be doing this. And I was just like, nah, no one's interested. Okay. When I went to the dungeon for my first time, I, well, first couple of times, I went by myself because I was just super interested. I live in LA, so there's a few of them. And there's events. And, and I just wanted to go by myself. I didn't want to have the weight or judgment of anyone else with me, whether that was like, a partner or friend or whatever. So I just go. And that, what I realized is that it's kind of my personality. And I just thought everyone, if they were interested in going to a dungeon, would just pop into the nearest dungeon. And so I had friends they like, there's no way I would go by myself. And these were friends that were very open and adventurous. And, you know, I would never expect them to feel intimidated or shy to step into a dungeon. So finally, I feel some trepidation going to a dungeon. I will admit that I'm intrigued, but I would like for you to take me there. Okay. And that is, and Dr. Jen, that is normal. I'll just let you know I'm like the outline here. And so I ended up putting it out there to some people. And there's a dungeon in LA that offers events that are basically for new people called a taster event. There's like over here, there's a flogging station over here, there's spanking station over there, there's a rope for tying station where you learn how to either tie someone up or be tied up. And, and it's a really easy entry point. It's not scary. There's people in regular clothes. No one's like doing insane things in the dark corner. Like it's a very tame, if you will, dungeon event. And so, yeah, I've brought six people. And it was so much fun. And the ages were from 35 to 78. And the woman who's 78 had an amazing time. And she also had some really big revelations around herself, which I'm not going to go into the details, but to be 78 and learn something new about yourself, because of being put in a certain situation in a dungeon, like, it's so powerful. This work is really powerful. And it is fun too. Because you're also kind of like, it's playful, but you're also getting into some of those fantasy situations, you're getting to watch certain things, right? You're, you're maybe testing some of your own limits. Like all of that is arousing and interesting. And I don't know, like it's, it's a power exchange. It's, it's playful. I feel like, yeah, it's bringing the shadowy parts of us. And not just because I think a lot of shadow work is just kind of like shining a light on the shadow and the shadows like, you know, but instead it's, it's bringing the shadow in and being like, Hey, you want to go play in a consensual way. And the shadows like finally, I've been waiting, you know, and so I look at it in that way too. And very few, and I'm sure you can speak to this much more deeply as a trained therapist than, than I could ever. But I feel like when we do self development work or when we're in therapy or these places, they can go really deep, but it gets kind of dark and heavy. And there's that in the dungeon, but there's this lightness around it too. Like when you are in a scene with someone, you call it play, you're like, do you want to play? And so I wish more people could combine this depth of work, of this shadow work of the pieces of us we don't want to be seen, and actually bring it in playfully and having fun as opposed to being like, and I speak from experience because I had a lot of shame and a lot of heaviness around how I grew up. And, and it was always this thing like I was looking at and working with, and I was like, when's this going to go away? And then finally, when I found the work world, I was like, no, this doesn't have to be my like ball and chain. This can be my vlogger instead. And like, let's have fun with it. And so I think that really helped me and why, and I still have a therapist, I go to therapy, but it just elevated my experience, my healing journey more, if you will, and didn't make it seem like this would never, I don't know, feel good, because now it feels good. Well, and I love that piece about play, right? It's just the, I mean, that's where the erotic exists is in that zone of play and curiosity and exploration. So, okay, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back with more from Nicole. A quick pause here to share something that I've been working on that I think you will really appreciate, especially if you've ever felt confused or disconnected from your sexual desire. It's a self-paced course that I created for women who want a better understanding of their sexual desire, especially if it's felt confusing, inconsistent or hard to access. A lot of us are taught that desires should just be there, effortless, spontaneous, always on, but that is not the reality for most people. And when it's not, it can leave you feeling frustrated or like something is wrong with you. If you've ever felt turned on one day and completely disconnected the next, or if you've struggled to say what you really want sexually, if you're both excited by the idea of vibrant sex and hesitant about what that even looks like, this course is for you. Desire is complex. It lives in your brain just as much as your body. And in this course, I guide you through the understanding of your unique relationship to it without pressure, shame or performance. You'll get short videos and guided worksheets to help you map out your personal erotic template, identify what turns you on and off and what shuts you down, understand the blocks might be getting in your way, reconnect with your body, and you'll explore your sexual self with more confidence and curiosity. You can go at your own pace. You don't need to want more sex. You just need to want to know yourself better. So if this resonates, then head on over to pleasureproject.us and learn more and enroll in the course. Now back to the episode. So let's jump back into your work as a dominatrix because I think that's intriguing. And I've been searching for the right dominatrix because I've met several over the years, but you navigate professional and you're beautiful and you're articulate and you very much embody and own this identity as well. And I love that. And I want to hear from you in that piece and sort of that dynamic of like, what shows up when people want a dominatrix? Kind of what shows up in that dynamic? I'm so intrigued. Well, thank you for saying that. I've had people say, you're not a dominatrix because you smile too much or you're too nice. And so when you think of a dominatrix, a lot of times you do think of the very like strict and, you know, I don't know, mean and sadist, but I want to be the approachable Dom and kind of the gateway drug, if you will, to BDSM. And so I, a lot of it has been working with play and fun. And so I love, like, I can step into the role of traditional dominatrix, if you will, you know, thinking like dark dungeon and in my thigh high black boots and the outfit and, you know, putting someone in restraints. But also there's a whole attitude, personality, charisma, characteristics that a dominatrix takes on. And what I love about that is we can use it in our everyday lives, not just in the dungeon or in the bedroom. And for women in particular, I say we all have our inner Dom and I call her, you know, our inner wisdom. And it's really about how do we let that come out into the world around us? Because a lot of times, like for example, in the dungeon, we might put a gag on someone or you can't speak. But in the in the world, like, what is gagging you? Where are you not speaking your truth? Where do you need to just say your safe word and the gag will come? Well, you can't say a safe word with the gag in, but you can do your safe gesture to take the gag off and speak your truth, right. And so or like what's been choking you? So interesting, right? It's like that happens metaphorically all the time. All the time. Where have you been? Rescuing yourself, found yourself or someone else? Or like masochism, right, is being and having pain inflicted on you or sadism is inflicting pain. And so what painful do this all the time to each other to ourselves? Yeah. And on the other side of it is something magical, actually. So like people might think, oh, I don't, I would never want to go through that pain or inflict pain. But think about in the dungeon, but think about all the painful experiences you've had in life, the painful conversations, the decisions you've had to make. And yet once you make them and you step into whatever that truth was, because you had to go through the pain, like, that's where your magic is. And that's where your strength comes from. And that's where we're able to pull our courage out from. And so a lot of people when just from the surface, if they're not really digging in, they look at a dungeon, they look at a dominatrix, they look at a submissive kneeling before her and think, what the fuck? Like, why would anyone go through this? And yet we're doing it to ourselves every day with our boss, with our kids, with our spouse, with ourselves. Yes. And so I love to bring this to the forefront to have people ask themselves, what beliefs are keeping me in bondage? What desires do I want to dominate me? How do I submit to my sensuality and how masochism can bring about our magic? And I call that my BDSM, beliefs, desires, sensuality, and magic. And we do it through the metaphors, if you will, of the dungeon. So it's literal, like, I can take you and tie you up, and I would love to. And we will find out your desires and we will get into your sensuality. Find that magic in the dungeon. But we can do that right here in your living room, on your walk, as you parent, as you. I mean, if you think about it too, kids play, right? They do fantasy play. They say, you be the dad, I'll be the mom, or you be the firefighter, and I'll be the, you know, you be the doctor, right? You be the doctor, I'll be the patient, whatever. They play like this. They do power exchange. They, you know, they do all kinds of things. And then as we grow up, we don't do it anymore. But we do it in our lives, where these power struggles are like, you gave all those examples of withholding or power over or and, but it's not explicit. It's not, it's all this internal sort of holding and negotiations that don't get made known, or we don't, we don't feel like we have agency. Yeah, in our relationships. And so in this sanctioned dynamic that you're describing, you're actually making it so explicit. And I think that's really cool. I think that's, that's so liberating. I think that's, yeah, that I think is the beauty and why King and BDSM can be so powerful, because you do put it all out there. Like it's talked about, it's negotiated, it's know the boundaries, you know your hard limits, and you know where to push up against if you want to, and there's trust built up and all of these things in the literal way. But also, when you do this work as self development, you can also see like, what are my hard limits? What are my standards? Like, what is the base? What are the bases that I, you know, are my minimums? And then what are my maximums? And how do I do I want to go to that maximum place and push against those edges? Are my kind of comfortable or do I want to push my comfort level? So yeah, there's just so many ways to take it. And I think I don't work with cup couples or in relationships. I think it's really with my work, it's important that someone does this individual like it's an individualized work. And then later, if they want to bring someone into that, then that's fine. But I would imagine with your work and seeing couples as a therapist, like this could be a really powerful tool like role play and what if and and you know, because I'm sure I don't know to even articulate their fantasies. I mean, they come in, well, the people come in at all different places, but getting them to actually articulate like they're really like their true inner kink, right? Their inner meanderings, their fantasies, their hand to even like I try to get them to break down sort of their cycle that they go through their dynamic between the two. And when they can kind of unpack that, then we can disrupt it and do something different. But what you're describing, right? What what they do in the world with their bound or their, you know, how they're gagged or how they're whatever. And if we can get them to see that between them, it's so interesting. Because oftentimes, they are participating in their own pain. They are perpetuating their own holding and their own, you know, suffering. Yeah, we're our own latest animus. Like we've both parts simultaneously. Yeah. And there's such a vulnerability, I think, in admitting or acknowledging what those fantasies or desires may be. And so to be able to do that on an individual basis, and then once you're a person is more comfortable with even just being accepting like, Oh, I own this, then perhaps bring, you know, then maybe it's a little bit easier to bring it to a partner, because it's not just the fantasy or the desire, like someone's been sitting with it and thinking, Okay, well, what what, what does this mean? And when did this start? And maybe what were the circumstances around it? And that's why a lot of people will go to a professional dominatrix for a session. It's not just about the sexuality of it. It is about having someone who's not going to judge you, who's going to bring about this fantasy so that you can bring it into the light and dissipate the shame, right? Brunet Brown says shame can't exist in the light or something like that. And so I highly encourage people to definitely get a therapist and stick with your therapist. And if you can have a session, it doesn't have to be extremely torturous. It might just be this Dom asking like, What do you want? Tell me your desires like demanding it of this person kneeling before them blindfolded, gag, whatever it is, you discuss, you negotiate your, your boundaries and limits ahead of time. So it's very safe. But just being able to be in that position and diverge, divulge everything that you've been holding and feeling bad about maybe or embarrassed about and you're able to get this out in the open. Yep. It's just being able to lay it all out. It's like there's something really worrying about that. Yeah. And this person, I'm not going to judge you about it, right? They've seen everything. What does the gerontology weave into this? So I just think, well, I'm sure if I went back to my alma mater, they'd be like, What the fuck are you doing? Because it has to, I mean, that's a lot of study to not factor it. I'm sure it does. I think a lot of it had to do with just, you know, we see so much anti-aging rhetoric and women being put out to pasture or not feeling seen or not feeling appreciated or just because now we can't reproduce, you know, we don't have any use. And that's just, it's not true. And I think a lot of women, when they finally hit a certain age, the kids are gone, maybe they're almost in retirement or at least they've like hit a place in their career where they're in a steady spot. And they're like, What is my life about? And there's so much energy and wisdom and experience to like dive into, but we're taught that it's not important. And I feel like this is the ripe time for women to really step into their erotic. And yet we're not given permission to, for the most part, and so people like me, like you, like bringing this into the public sphere, we're giving people permission, women specifically permission to find out what they desire and like step into that sexuality. And probably we've been suppressing some stuff for a long time and like to stop it, to stop it. So the aging part in that way. And I really believe too that the more we tap in from a physiological point of view, a scientific point of view, the more we're able, like sexual wellness is the forgotten part of longevity. You know, we have mental wellness, we have fitness and creatine and weight nutrition and sleep and all of these things. And no one's talking about like pleasure and tapping into that. But I think the more we keep that part of us alive, like evolutionarily, like our DNA, our cells are like, Hey, we're ready to go. Let's make babies, even though we're not going to make any. But like that science part, keeping us alive, because that is just as important. Like the drive to have sex is in the part of our brain where the drive to eat and to have thirst is that's how important it is, right? That's why when people get into accidents, like they're quadriplegic, a lot of times they can still, like men can still have an erection, women can still orgasm, because that part of our body is so protected in the brain, you know, and because it's a very important part of our human being. And yet, because of shame, because of the patriarchy, because of religion, because of culture, whatever it is, we just put that aside. And I think from a longevity standpoint, from a gerontology standpoint, it actually, the more feeling good in your body, the more sex, you don't need a partner for this stuff, like on your own, the more alive we feel in our body, I think the longer we're going to live, or at least we're going to live a long, happier, feel better, good lives. Yeah. Yeah, I'm right there with you, sister. It's good, right? It's just, it is, there's something really, and you don't need to be partnered to feel this, but the sense of agency and embodiment and pleasure and delight in yeah, being able to express and own your sexuality. And it goes back to the, yeah, thank you. Sorry to interrupt, it goes back to what you mentioned, of being curious. I think we shoved down our curiosity, or someone shut it down in us. And so for women, like, touch yourself, massage some lotion on you, you know what I mean? It doesn't even have to be like a sex toy, but hopefully, it will at some point, learn how to enjoy your body and what makes your body feel good. Like, so many of us are masochists or martyrs, you know, think of all the women in your life that have just suffered and a lot of them wear it as a badge. And it's like, stop, like, let's enjoy our bodies, like, let's feel good. When's the last time you felt good? When's the last time you laughed really hard? When's the last time you did have an orgasm? When's the last time? Unless suffering is your kink. Also, but then let's bring that into life, you know, and own it. Exactly. Exactly. Like, I'm all about, like, that's your kink. Okay, let's make you suffer. But no, but no, that's what you want. And that's what brings you pleasure, as opposed to not owning that. Because a woman in her sexual power, a woman in her pleasure, a woman in her agency is a very magnetic, dangerous, revolutionary, radical thing. And I think we both want to see more of that in the world. Yes, please. Well, this has been wonderful. Thank you so, so much. Thank you for having me. Let's see. Okay, so what do you have coming up? Anything that we need to know about listeners? Yeah, so twice a year, I run a course called Inner Wisdom, where we go deeper into BDSM, beliefs, desires, sensuality, and magic. And that will be in the fall, so towards the end of October. I almost loved, I don't know if you're familiar with Persephone, the Greek goddess, but you know, she was taken into the underworld in the fall to become the queen of the underworld. And then in the spring, she reemerges as the maiden of spring. And so tapping into those two energies of Persephone, so in the fall, we'll be going down into the underworld and like really stepping into that queendom of the shadows of the dark in Inner Wisdom. So I would say that's probably the next thing. And then I have to check, but if anyone's in the LA area and wants to do a kinky field trip, those are typically once every other month or so. So yeah, those are going to be offered more often since I just had the first time. But yeah, those are things. And then I just work, I do work with people anytime, one-on-one stuff. And I just love this work so much that even if anyone just wants to message me for a question, please please do. And that would be through your Instagram. Yes, at Dr. Nicole Marceoni. Great. And we will put all of that in the show notes. Thank you. So thank you so much. Hey, it's Dr. Jen. Thanks so much for tuning in. Please leave us a review and leave a comment if something struck you. We'd love to get the feedback. It really helps the podcast. And if you want to reach me, go ahead and direct message me on Instagram or you can reach me at Jen at revieratherapy.com. Thanks.