He's 14. I've always said 14 is when I'm doing it. Years ago, Abby made a promise to herself. When her son Jay hit 14, she'd ask his parents if she and Nathan could talk to him alone. Abby thinks he deserves a chance to finally ask them any questions he's ever had about the adoption. They don't get many chances to talk. By 2022, they're down to just a few FaceTime calls a year. And Jay's parents are always hovering nearby. The tension is always so intense. He looks curious and nervous and unsure, like he doesn't know what he's allowed to do. but he knows he's not allowed to ask questions. Today's call, though, is just between the parents. It's been scheduled for weeks. Abby's been planning what she wants to say for years. Of course, it started all Southern and warm and hi, how are you's. And then they asked what we were wanting to talk about. Abby gets right to it. We want the ability to have one-on-one conversation with our son. And we think that it's unhealthy that he's never been able to ask the question why was I adopted to us? After that, it's a pretty short call. They just started telling us that we have no place. He's not our son. They are his parents and we don't understand what is best for him. And then the phone call was over. So when we got off the phone, I told Nate I'm writing a letter and I wrote out my whole story in detail. So I'm at least going to be able to look at him one day and tell him that I did everything I could to make sure you had this information. Not long after that, they get a response from Jay's father. He tells them that there won't be any more visits to see Jay or phone calls or FaceTimes. The open adoption is over. It's now been over three years since Abby and Nathan have seen Jay. They don't know if or when they'll ever get to talk to him again. That's been really, really painful for me. I'll just think about him during the day and just be like, I don't know what he's doing. I don't know what he loves. I don't know what type of music he likes. It's the little day-to-day things, little glimpses into his life that brought me so much joy. And losing that has been brutal. Jay's parents didn't respond to my request to be interviewed. For the most part, I only know Abby and Nathan's side of the story. But Abby still has the response from Jay's dad. And it gave me a new window into what Jay's parents must have been feeling. What I see in the exchange is two very different realities. Abby and Nathan feel like their son was stolen from them through pressure, coercion, and religious manipulation and they feel like it's their responsibility to let him know that he was loved, that he was wanted Jay's parents feel like their son was given to them by God and it's their responsibility as his parents to decide what conversations Jay's ready for. And in their opinion, he's not ready for all the details about his adoption. His father says he sympathizes with Abby and Nathan's pain, but that their resentments should be directed towards Abby's parents, not toward the couple who adopted Jay. And all of that's true. Jay's parents didn't create the system that allowed the adoption to happen, but it is how Jay became their son. There's very few people that look into, like, where's this child coming from? The narrative to support the industry is that you're saving someone, and no one asks from what. After the adoption closes, something shifts in Abby. The last thread keeping her quiet, agreeable, and complacent has been cut. And I was just like, I have a lot to say. I know how very deeply wrong the assumptions people make about a story like mine. How many things they don't know that I saw firsthand behind closed doors that I know is a part of a bigger system. I'm going to have to speak up. Honestly, there was nothing to lose. This episode is brought to you by Audible. Sometimes the right story comes along exactly when you need it, opening your eyes to new perspectives or simply helping you make sense of things. That's what makes Audible special. There's always another story waiting to move you. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash liberty lost. That's audible.com slash liberty lost. From Wondery, I'm TJ Raphael, and this is Liberty Lost. I have to go. This is the sixth and final episode, How I Wonder What You Are. We begin this morning with the decision that sent shockwaves across America. This is the biggest blow to women's reproductive rights in about 50 years. The Supreme Court has overturned Roe v. Wade. Jerry Falwell started the Godparent Home as part of a mission to end abortion access nationwide. He said they were saving unborn lives. But the past residents we spoke to had already decided they didn't want abortions. To me, it seems that the real work of the home was to create a new story about why America didn't need abortion if it had adoption. He wanted that story to change the country. We shall continue to pray that some president someday will be able to appoint a Supreme Court that believes in the dignity of unborn life. He never lived to see his dream become a reality. But in 2022, the Supreme Court overturned Roe. And in the decision, you can hear echoes of Falwell. The conservative justices seem to suggest that Americans don't need abortion because women can always choose adoption. Falwell's story won out at the high court. Even though he wasn't around to see it happen, his son, Jonathan Falwell, the chancellor of Liberty University, was there to seize the moment. So obviously we celebrate what the Supreme Court decision came out on Friday to allow Roe v. Wade to no longer be the law of the land, but still there's a lot of work to be done. That work to be done? He's talking about expanding the godparent home. In June 2023, the home would get a bunch of new beds and furniture donated. And this year, on stage at the church his father founded, Jonathan Falwell announced a slew of new fundraising. And so we've got checks here for about $20,000 each. Liberty Godparent Foundation and Federation have been working for decades, providing for young ladies and to provide housing for them, to provide education for them. if they choose to go the route of adoption to provide resources to help them do that as well. The home has been ramping up its community outreach. Their Instagram is updated with posts about free childbirth classes and financial workshops. They have a couple donation boxes around town, stocked with free baby supplies like diapers and formula. But one of the boxes is right outside the godparent home, which means it's also right outside Family Life Services. So as low-income women pull up to get free supplies, they have to pass an adoption agency. And Abby's caseworker, Deanne Hamlet, she's still working at Family Life Services. Actually, she's running the whole operation. as director. Abby watches all this unfold from her new home in Seattle. She and Nathan have tried to get as far away from the Bible Belt as possible. But the end of Roe hits hard for her, especially because it comes right as Jay's adoption closes. I was both overwhelmed and deeply upset and cried when I found out about Roe being overturned. because of what I know, all the many things that women will face, but one of them being how many more women I know will find themselves being coerced into relinquishment. A lot of times, we only see the happy side of adoption. In the movies and on TV, we see brief portraits of birth mothers giving up their babies to smiling couples. And then, they're just guided off screen, never to be heard from again. But Abby decides to write a different ending. It's a rare, sunny afternoon in Seattle. She's been waiting for a day with this kind of light. She looks straight into the camera on her iPhone. From the screen, an anxious face looks back at her. But she knows exactly what she wants to say. When anxiety takes over, she stops and tries again. Finally, she gets it all. She uploads her video to TikTok and hits publish. As a birth mother, let me tell you, there is nothing beautiful or healthy about living permanently separated from your living child. Later that day, Abby gets a notification on her phone. I got a DM from a friend of a friend, like someone I don't know very well. And she messaged me and said, have you seen that you're going viral on TikTok? And I was just like, what? Abby pulls over and opens up TikTok. And I see that I've got over 100,000 views already. And I scroll to like refresh and it just stacking up by the thousands In the comments section on Abby video birth mothers are stepping off the sidelines writing in with their own experiences of adoption and maternity homes I was 15 when I was sent to one in Idaho. I was forced to give away my baby and a piece of me died. We were reunited 14 years ago. I've been a birth mother for 47 years. The trauma becomes bearable, but never ends. It was just really intense. Like that I had affected people that were sitting in their homes, feeling the pain that I feel every day. And right now in this moment, they're not feeling all alone. Some of the women have never talked about their experiences before. Sometimes people would say, no one knows this about me. There was always this family secret. That's the way Zoe Shaw operated for 21 years. After she left the godparent home, the only people in Zoe's life who knew the truth about her pregnancy and the adoption were her ex-boyfriend Vinny and her parents. Eventually, she had to share it with one more person, her college sweetheart. After he proposed to me, I definitely felt like it was something he needed to know about my past. Zoe and her husband-to-be came to an agreement. When they had kids of their own, Zoe would never tell them about their half-sister. Feeling shamed was such a natural experience to me. It felt normal that my own husband shamed me for my experience. Zoe tried to put the past behind her. She earned a doctorate degree and became an accomplished psychotherapist with her own practice. and she's able to keep her secret going until a quiet afternoon in 2009. Zoe's at home in California. On the line is her ex-boyfriend, Vinny. And he rarely ever called me and so that was kind of a surprise. They chat for a minute. How are you? What's new? But Vinny isn't calling to catch up. He has some big news to share. He tells Zoe that the baby girl that they placed for adoption so long ago has found him. She's 18 now. And she's on the phone right now. And then I heard her voice and she said hi. And I literally dropped to the floor. When Zoe last saw her daughter, she was saying goodbye to baby Kaya. But that's not her name anymore. Her adoptive parents named her Sarah. I remember going into my closet and closing the door and sitting on the floor and talking to her. All these years I dreamed of this and here I am. She ranges to meet Sarah out of state. She'll tell her kids she's going on a work trip and they won't suspect anything. A few weeks later, she boards a plane for Vegas. I remember just the emotions and the butterflies in my stomach and all of the thoughts and feelings and fears. and I got to the airport before she did. I was standing at the bottom in the baggage claim and I was waiting for her to get off her plane and I was looking at the escalators and I just immediately saw her at the top of the escalator. It was packed airport, tons of people on there, but I saw her, my eyes connected with her and I immediately knew it was her. I can see myself in her and I watched her descend almost like an angel just down from the sky. Zoe gives her daughter a big hug and they go to lunch. Sarah tells Zoe about her mom and dad and her childhood. It turns out Sarah grew up just 45 minutes away from Zoe's family. There were plenty of times that I drove through Germantown not knowing that that's where my daughter was the whole time. There was a sense of comfort and family and familiarity with her from the very, very beginning. And I remember I did cry and I told her about some of my regrets and she was just so gracious. And I think it was healing for both of us. When she heads back home to California, Zoe continues to keep everything quiet. But across the country, her daughter connects with Zoe's parents. I reached out to Zoe's mom to talk to her, but I never heard back. Every time Zoe goes home to visit her folks, she slinks away to see her daughter. She's able to keep her two worlds separate for about three years until her father passes away. So I knew that Sarah was going to be invited to the funeral, and I was kind of playing this chess game with myself in my head. Zoe's kids, her siblings, her aunts, uncles, cousins None of them know about Sarah And now, they're all going to be in the same room I feel like my kind of mama bear instincts came out And I wanted to protect her You know, I had been keeping the secret I had been holding all of this But the last thing I was going to do is to make her do that Zoe decides it's time to tell her family the truth so the next day at my father's funeral when we came back and all of my family an extended family was there I said I have something to tell you guys I had a daughter when I was 16 and I placed her for adoption and this is this is Sarah she's your cousin you know niece all the things and my family was wonderful. They welcomed Sarah. After that moment was over, there were so many feelings because when you hold something that tightly, when you hold a secret, what you do tell yourself is that if you were to say this thing, that you almost have this sense of the world will fall apart. Everything will be destroyed. Like all of these catastrophic things will happen if you speak your truth. And the reality is I said those words, you know, I had a child and nothing happened. And so in that moment, I was struck with a sense of freedom, definitely kind of a sense of rising from my grave. And it was also the beginning, I think, of an anger phase for me because that was my first rebellion. In the years that follow, Zoe divorces her husband. She celebrates her 50th birthday in Greece with Sarah. And she begins to unpack everything that she's gone through. The entire experience at the godparent home was a shaming experience, but I didn't understand it at that time. Zoe can now look back and see how shame has shaped her life. All her years as a therapist didn't get her there. But saying the truth out loud did. Zoe's roommate at the godparent home, Tony Popham, took a different path to sharing her story. In many ways, Tony was one of the lucky ones. She got to keep her daughter. Her mom and grandma were there to help raise her. But after being pressured, manipulated, and shamed for months as a 13-year-old kid, she felt like the home broke something in her. I mean, it makes you feel like I'm not worthy for anyone else to treat me right. I can't even be loved by God, so who else is going to love me? The year after she left the home, Tony married her daughter's father. She was only 15 years old. It was, well, if I don't marry him, no one else is going to want me. The marriage didn't last. And after that, she bounced from one bad relationship to the next. Until she met the man she's married to today. They're coming up on 20 years now, and their family keeps growing. We have six kids and four grandkids. My son lives just right down the road. My daughter lives a little ways up the road. And all together, all the time. But despite that, she's never told them any of the details about what happened to her in the godparent home. I really have not talked to anyone about it until I start talking to you. There's so much nobody even knows. She kept the worst memories to herself. But two years ago, Toni came across my post on a message board looking for women who'd been through the godparent home. Until then, she'd taken comfort in the thought that it probably wasn't around anymore. My post made her Google the home, and that's how she learned it was still open. It's what made her finally decide to talk about it. And I was just shocked by the fact that that could still be going on, and no one has done anything. There's no control over it. There's no stopping it. It's completely a place of manipulation and torture and 34 years. And I still can't talk about it to anyone. And I sought you out because I don't want this to happen to someone else. But vulnerable young women are still finding themselves trapped in a system that shames them, manipulates them, and preys on their worst fears. Right now, there are hundreds of maternity homes across the country. Many of them are faith-based, like the godparent home. And with the end of Roe, activists are warning people that more are on the way. Millions of taxpayer dollars are going to go to maternity homes. Your money is going to go to maternity homes. countless storytellers right in your pocket. The best part? These stories fit right into your life. Whether you're stuck in traffic, going for a walk, or just taking some time for yourself, Audible turns everyday moments into opportunities for discovery. Take Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus, a witty, moving story about a brilliant woman fighting for her place in a world that's not ready for her. It's the kind of story that'll make you laugh out loud one minute and feel all the feelings the next. Ready to find your next great listen? New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash liberty lost. That's audible.com slash liberty lost. Abby's sneakers hit the pavement. on her morning jog through her Seattle neighborhood. As she works up a sweat her mind clears That actually when a lot of stuff comes to me and I just be preaching in my head and I just like who are you preaching at Who do you think you are And so I like okay well actually I think that thing that I just said was like pretty well worded She pause her run, take out her phone and record the thought while it's still fresh in her head. Those thoughts eventually find their way into her videos. What I want to talk with you all about today is the baby scoop era. It's an authoritative system. Whether you see the religious influence that designed this system or whether you choose not to see it. I just want to keep it short and to the point today. Thank you so much for being here. Abby knows the stakes have never been higher. Since the end of Roe, new maternity homes have been popping up across the country. More than a third have ties to one of the world's largest anti-abortion groups, Heartbeat International. Here's a clip of Beth Diemer, the group's director of affiliate services, on Heartbeat's Pregnancy Help podcast. You have the option to make a redemptive choice. And adoption, to me, is the greatest redemptive choice ever. It's not this emotional hardship. If Heartbeat's language sounds familiar, it's not a coincidence. Sarah P.'s old boss at the godparent home, Janelle Basham, was a founding member of Heartbeat's National Maternity Housing Coalition and sat on their leadership council for years. The group works to support and grow maternity homes across the country. And maternity homes are growing. There are now nearly 500 in the U.S. across 48 states. Government funding helped fuel the expansion. In recent years, $250 million have been funneled into anti-abortion centers, also known as crisis pregnancy centers, as well as adoption agencies and maternity homes. On her socials, Abby tries to connect the dots. Adoption agencies openly market adoption as a redemption plan for unmarried, financially unsupported pregnant people. It's the baby scoop era, 2.0. But while birth mothers of the past rarely had a chance to share their stories, a new generation is taking to social media. If I knew that I wasn't a sinner, but rather I was in a crisis, my daughter would not be an adoptee. I placed her because I felt like I had no other option. Most of these birth moms didn't go through maternity homes. But the coercive tactics Abby, Tony, and Zoe experienced are rampant at crisis pregnancy centers and throughout the adoption industry. The godparent home is just the symptom of a much larger problem. Online, one of the birth moms Abby comes to connect with is Katie Burns. People intentionally withheld resources from me. Some parts of Katie's story will sound familiar. She was 19 when she got pregnant. She was raised in a conservative Christian household. I was sent to a crisis pregnancy center by my parents. And the lady would only talk to me about adoption. And I was just like, I want to parent. Katie wasn't shown parenting resources. And she wasn't told that birth moms usually experience intense and ongoing grief. Instead, the woman at the center tells her she needs to be selfless. Your baby deserves a two-parent home. Your baby deserves a better life than anything that you can provide. Katie felt pressured and manipulated into choosing adoption, and she wound up placing her daughter in 1999. In the years since, Katie has become the resource director for a grassroots organization called Saving Our Sisters, or SOS for short. It was co-founded by another birth mom, Renee Gellin. Our literal villages are gone, and that's what SOS is. We're a village. Their typical client is in her mid-20s, pregnant, single, and already has a kid or two. She's struggling to make ends meet and isn't sure how she'll be able to make it all work with a new baby. SOS tries to step in at this critical moment. We see and hear these same stories over and over again. The money is the problem. So on average, SOS spends anywhere from $3,000 to $5,000 to help a mom get through her temporary crisis. So whether that is paying a couple of months rent while she's on maternity leave, making sure she has a car seat when she leaves the hospital, making sure she has her baby supplies, things like that. That's really what we do. Research shows that 9 out of 10 times, mothers who choose to place their babies for adoption do so because of money. One expert found that some birth mothers wouldn't have gone that route if they had even $1,000 or $2,000 more in the bank. That financial pressure can also lead someone to consider a maternity home. And then once they're there, they can feel stuck and feel obligated to surrender their baby. And they're looking for a way to get out. How do I get out of this? We call out what coercion and or duress is and everything that's done with an adoption entity and an expectant mother. And I really get them to see that this industry is built this way for a reason. Meanwhile, SOS sees prospective adoptive parents paying up to $100,000 for a baby. The United States is the only country that has really turned adoption into a business that is extremely profitable. It is a multi-billion dollar industry. We're literally commodifying children. Since the original Baby Scoop era ended, the supply has continued to shrink. There are up to 45 families looking to adopt for every one available infant. And that makes people do really unethical, crazy, corrupt, deceitful things. You see that most clearly when moms sign adoption papers and immediately realize they've made a terrible mistake. I don't want to place my baby for adoption. What do I do? They reach out to SOS for help. But when Katie gets a call from a woman in this situation, it's almost always a fight to get their baby back, even if the revocation window is still open. That's the period of time each state gives birth moms to change their minds about the adoption. When they do change their minds, they can face pressure and lies. You think that this agency represents you. You think this attorney represents you. They don't. They're going to do everything they can to try to get this adoption to go through. Katie had this case in Georgia where the adoption attorney gave a mom paperwork that said she had 10 days to revoke her consent. She contacts him like on day five and says, I can't do this. I'm going crazy. I need my baby back. And he's like, it's too late. And she's like, but the paperwork you gave me says I have 10 days. And he's like, no, you have four days. Like he knowingly, they're still telling how many moms he's done this to. Ultimately, SOS helped the mom get her child back. The custody exchange was done at a police station. and I think it was probably best that it was because it was emotional. There are a lot of emotions on all sides. Back when Abby gave birth, she had 10 days to change her mind. That was just long enough for her to meet with her caseworker at Starbucks and ask about reversing the paperwork. But it wasn't long enough for her to really get help understanding her rights and options. And in general, the shorter a revocation window is, the harder it is for a birth mom to reverse course, which is one of the reasons why the adoption industry has been lobbying hard to keep those windows short. And they've been succeeding. The parent has nine and a half months at minimum to determine whether or not they want to put the child up for adoption. I do not understand why we would want to wait an additional three days. We want people to be adoptive parents in this state. They've put their soul into this. That's from the statehouse floor in Tennessee. Lawmakers there voted in 2015 to shorten the revocation period to just three days. Once in a while, in state legislatures across the country, you'll hear someone pushing back. We have no one here coming to the table to speak in defense of these women that may want to change their mind. But the laws to shorten windows keep passing. I'm going to vote aye, but I do have a tiny bit of concern about that time frame for the mom. But I'm a yes. Even when there is a revocation window, it doesn't always help. In most states, a birth mother would have to prove fraud or duress to change anything. You're going to have to hire an attorney, and you don't have that kind of money, or else you wouldn't be placing your baby for adoption. In Utah, consent to adoption is irreversible, even in cases of fraud or duress. In Utah, as soon as your pen leaves the paper, you've lost all rights to your baby. With every passing year, the work that SOS does keeps getting harder. And it's not just because of revocation windows. The Trump administration has announced a host of new policies that could push women towards adoption. A more than 40 percent budget cut for the Department of Housing and Urban Development, which provides funding for affordable housing projects and rental assistance. The administration says about three million people will be booted out of the food stamp program. Republicans are considering slashing hundreds of billions of dollars from the largest single insurer in the country. Medicaid also pays for 40% of births in the U.S. These are the social services that can make the difference between a mom being able to keep her child or placing them for adoption. But change doesn't just need to happen at the government level. It also needs to happen in the stories we tell each other about adoption. Everyone thinks that if a mom is in this situation and is considering relinquishing her rights, there a good reason for it and she shouldn even have her kids because she even considering this Before I started working on this story I never thought deeply about what really drives a woman to permanently separate from the child she gave birth to. I'd been reporting on abortion for years and the fight for women to choose what happens to their bodies. I didn't realize how much adoption was also about choice or the lack of it. we really need to put on that critical lens. Let's talk about why is she considering this? What is going on? Now I understand that adoption is often the result of a lack of power. Many women who go down this route do so because of desperation, hardship, and a lack of support. But adoption isn't a singular event. It's ongoing, and it never ends. Society has this wonderful saving a baby narrative, right? And that it's a happy ever after. Really the reality of it is every single adoption, no matter what the scenario is, necessary or unnecessary, begins with loss. It changes you to your core. The lifelong grief never goes away. We won't be able to change the system Until we look at that loss and that grief straight on It's not comfortable It's not easy There's a lot of people who don't want to go there But sometimes people can surprise you All these years I've desperately desired for my parents to tell them What we did to our daughter was abusive Please, please, please let her have more contact I've always hoped in my heart somewhere that if my parents really were sorry for what they did, that they would do that. For a long time after the godparent home, Abby cut contact with her parents. But in recent years, she and her mom have been finding a way forward. After the adoption closed, Abby went to her mom and asked her for help in hopefully regaining contact. She thought Jay's parents might listen to Debbie. And Debbie decided to act. She wrote a letter to Jay's parents. In it, Debbie expressed a lot of pain and regret. And she told Jay's parents how she and her husband had been the ones to push Abby toward adoption. She encouraged them to honor the promise they made in their scrapbook so long ago. We view the baby that the Lord brings into our family as ours, the birth parents and the adoptive parents. We are open to whatever level of communication the birth mother desires. Abby's mom used to believe that adoption was a really good solution to unplanned pregnancy. For years, she volunteered for anti-abortion hotlines and encouraged pregnant single moms to place their children. But since she's witnessed her daughter's pain, her views have changed. Her mom told me this in a statement she sent me. I asked an actor to read some of her words. If only I could go back and do things differently. I wish I would have kept our daughter at home with me where I could have taken care of her and assisted her in becoming a mother instead of taking her to a maternity home. I have had to face the reality that I failed to support my daughter during her deepest need for my help as her mother. I can say that my daughter has not suffered alone. Not a day has gone by that I have not suffered with her and for her. My mom and I have made slow progress in a lot of regards over the years. I am grateful that I have someone that wants to be there for me no matter what. And as Abby's been finding her voice, she started to take some inspiration from her mother. My mom, in my experience being raised by her, has always been outspoken, an advocate, a leader. Now I have a voice and I'm passionate about what I'm saying. I think she doesn't quite recognize I got that from her. A year and a half ago, Abby began trying to repair her relationship with her father. I just woke up one morning and I was like, I'm going to write my dad a letter. He's still alive, and I deserve to speak my mind to him, and he can choose to read it or not, but I think there's something that could be therapeutic for me about saying everything to him I've never said. So I actually started the letter with, this is everything I've never said to you. She waited a long time with no response. And then, a few months ago, she got a letter back. Basically, my dad, for the first time in my life, affirmed every single thing I said. that it was him and my mother that made this decision and that it was never me that wanted this. You know, you can't change the disconnect and all the pain and the trauma, but I can look him in the eyes and tell him I'm hurting and I miss my son all day, every day, and he won't look away and he will just give me a hug and tell me he loves me and that he's so sorry. And that is a million miles away from what was available to me up until recently. But while some relationships are being rebuilt, others have buckled under the pressure of the adoption. When I first started reporting this series, I thought of it as kind of a love story. Abby and Nathan were ripped apart and found their way back to each other. But the grief that comes with adoption is complicated. It's messy. And Abby and Nathan didn't always process it in the same way. When we got back together, there was so much trauma for me. And long term, there's just been a profound struggle with connecting and understanding one another. And I had to numb out to survive and didn't know any better. Like, I wasn't a full person. And my not understanding what had happened to me and how to heal and how to move past a lot of that pain and a lot of that hurt. Because the only way I knew how to do that was just to shut down. And it impacts everything, you know. Me and Abby are no longer together. Even though they separated last year, this is still a love story. It's a story about Abby and Nathan's love for their son. They're counting down the days until the final sand timer runs out. In a little over a year, Jay will turn 18. No more guardrails. And maybe, one day, they'll be able to have a real relationship. I asked Nathan what he imagines that day might look like. I mean, to be honest with you, I don't care what it looks like. I dream of having connection with him, you know, in a real authentic way. I want to know everything. What makes him feel? What makes him hurt? What he's scared of? What he loves? What he's passionate about? Who he wants to be? The way he thinks? The way he processes? I mean, all of it. And I asked him what he'd want to say to Jay. I love you. I've always loved you from the moment that I found out about you the love was stronger than the fear loved you from the moment that I got to hold you for the first time to the last time that I got to give you a hug even though I didn't know it was the last time I was going to get to you you're a part of me You have my heart. It doesn't matter what it looks like. It doesn't change that. You are loved. I asked Abby the same questions. My love for him is eternal, and my desire to know him is on his timeline, and I'm always here. I have this fantasy all the time, of course, of answering the phone and hearing his voice, and I can't imagine his voice in my head, really, because I imagine it's a lot deeper now than it was the last time I got to hear it. I don't know what he'll call me. You know, I don't know if he'll call me Abby. I don't know what he'll say. I think my heart and my chest just tightens up and I just imagine falling into the rest of my life and feeling alive for the first time. And I really don't know what that's going to feel like. I don't think I ever asked you directly, like, what term do you prefer for yourself? I know some people use birth mother, some use natural mother. Do you have a preferred term? It makes me emotional to talk about because I've been going through a journey since I met you of trying to embrace how strongly I feel that I want to be called my son's natural mother. Why is that something that makes me feel people will villainize me when I say something so simple? I'm afraid to say it. Even to people who say they love me, I'm afraid they'll say that's harsh. That's aggressive. That's not putting other people above yourself. But that's the name I want because that's exactly who I am and nothing different. From Wondery, this is episode six of six of Liberty Lost. Liberty Lost is hosted, reported, and written by me, TJ Raphael. Our senior producer is Natalie Shisha. Senior story editor is Phyllis Fletcher. Producer is Rachel Young. Associate producer is Mariah Dennis. Additional production support from Emily Locke and Malachi Wade. Fact-checking by Jacqueline Colletti. Voice acting by Karen Arouge, Jeanette Johnston, and Debra Zawal-Smith. Original score by William Ryan Fritsch. Sound design and Dolby Atmos mixing by Jamie Cooper. Audio assistance by Daniel William Gonzalez. Sound supervisor is Marcelina Villalpando. Music supervisor is Scott Valesquez for Freeze on Sync. Managing producer is Heather Baloga. Senior managing producer is Lata Pandia. Development producer is Olivia Weber. Supervising Development Editor is Rachel B. Doyle. Special thanks to Christopher Brown. Executive Producers are Nigeri Eaton, George Lavender, Marshall Louis, and Jen Sargent for Wondery.
