Little One Book Club

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Bad on Paper podcast. I'm Olivia Mentor. And I'm Becca Freeman. And today is our February book club episode, and we are going to be discussing little one by yours truly. Olivia, I can't tell you how excited I've been for this episode to be able to talk about spoilers because there were so many things I wanted to ask you when we did our event together at The Strand, but I obviously couldn't because it was, you know, an inclusive event for people who had not read the book yet. But now this is book club. We can talk about everything. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. I hope I give everyone the answers that they're looking for, or at least answers. Well, before we get into that, tell me what your high is. My high is that I am so deeply happy to be home. I'm so happy to be back in the routine, back in my own bed, back in my office, back listening to my music, just back to my writing, back to silence. It feels so nice to just be back. And yeah, as great as Tora is, I love this just as much. And so I'm really glad for the balance. And it's just been great to just sleep a lot and relax. Oh, I'm so happy for you. Have you taken that day we discussed on last week's three things, your solo restorative day? No, I kind of have plans to do it today, but I have some work to do. I've basically just been working normal days, but they've felt so leisurely compared to the month leading up to pub. It's like, oh, I have a to-do list and I will get everything done and be cooking dinner by 530. That is great. But I will at some point. I've been getting in bed really early and sleeping in a bit. So it has felt restorative, even if it hasn't been like time off. Oh, good. You do deserve that day. I think you deserve a couple of them. Thank you. Thank you. I'll get there. Tell me about your high. I went to the coolest book event this week. A few weeks ago, I got an email from somebody and it said, invitation from Jenna Bush Hager. And my immediate instinct was that this was one of those phishing scams that they always warn authors about. I was like, what do you mean? I did get an email from Sally Rooney this morning telling me how much she loved little one. Not real. Anyway, go on. And the only reason I knew this was real is because it was somebody on her team who I'd emailed with before. I RSVP'd to the dinner. And then a few weeks later, Grace texted me and asked if I'd gotten invited. And so double exciting because not only am I going to this cool, mysterious dinner, but Grace is coming too. And so it was a party to celebrate the launch of the second book from Jenna's imprint, which is The Laws of Love and Logic by Deborah Curtis. And first of all, it was a really well done event. Like the dinner was delicious. There were all these interesting stations. One was to do an aura reading. One was to make a calligraphy bookmark. And what was so mind blowing about this dinner was I wasn't sure what to expect about who would be there if it was an influencer type event or a media event or what capacity I was being invited in. And so it's probably like 30 people. and we sit down at dinner and Jenna stands up to give remarks. First of all, Jenna is so nice and warm and bubbly and lovely. She's the type of person that you meet and you instantly think, oh yes, this is why you're good at your job. You're in the correct job. So she gets up to make remarks and she's saying how excited she is about the collection of book people that this dinner has brought together. And she says there's so many of her favorite authors here. And she's like, is it dorky if I name the authors who are here? And the table's like, no, do it. And so she starts naming people. And I was on the opposite side of the table from a lot of these people. It was kind of dark in the room. I hadn't really seen who was there. So she starts naming them. And it's like Coco Mellors, who wrote Blue Sisters, Cynthia Dupree Sweeney, Katie Kitamura was there. Patrick Ryan, who wrote Buckeye. And then she said, Maria Semple, who wrote Where'd You Go, Bernadette, which is one of my all-time favorite books. I was losing my mind. And I looked over to Grace, who was sitting next to me. And I was like, I don't think I'm here as an author. I don't think she's going to say me. You know, I was just like, I'm here as a podcaster or for my newsletter or whatever. And she said me last and I almost cried. It was such a pinch me moment just to be at this table with so many authors who I love and respect their work so much. It was such a pinch me event. And the book that it was celebrating sounds really great too. The author spoke up. She gave very brief remarks. But first of all, she's publishing her debut at 62, which is so cool. And then apparently she was working on this book for 10 years. And I don't know if it was specifically on this book or just on work she'd written. She'd gotten 180 rejections. This book was already on my TBR, but I'm even more excited to read it. It kind of sounds like a more contemporary version of Broken Country. It's about a love triangle between a woman, her husband, and her first love. So I'm very curious. Well, that sounds amazing. What an honor to be listed amongst so many amazing authors and to hear Jenna say your name in that context. Like, how special. I'm really happy for you. It sounds like such a lovely night. Truly, I'm still not convinced that I didn't just have a very elaborate dream. Sounds like a good dream, too. Great dream. Even if I just had that dream, I'd be like, I'm good. I'm great. But it was real. So congratulations. Oh, my gosh. It was such a cool night. And then I got to have a sleepover at Grace's hotel room and we got to catch up, which was also just the best. Sounds like a perfect bookish night. Truly. Did she come to the city just for this? Yeah, she came for 24 hours. Very cool. Very cool. What about on the low side? What's on our low list this week? I don't have many lows, but I would say my low is that I have taken two weeks off of my little weightlifting routine. and that's the most time I've taken off since September. And the mental hurdle of lifting those weights again has been significant. Every day this week. I finally did it yesterday, but it was as if I was bringing myself to the dentist or something. It was not pleasant, but I eased back into it. But once you're out of it, it is just mentally so hard to get back. But I pushed myself. I did it. I feel good. Good for you. I am such an all or nothing person with working out. I'm either in the routine or I'm nine miles away down the street. Yeah, it's hard. I tried to remind myself like there was a time where I hadn't done this in years and I got back into it. So I can do this now. I know I can do this now. That's a great mental frame of reference. I tried. We're also this week, why we chose this week. I don't know. Trying to teach Winnie not to sleep in our bed at night. No, Winnie. She loves that. I know, but she wakes up Jake like five times a night because she kind of moves around and she pushes him aside. And like she's just she kind of has the run of things. So Jake crafted literally like woodworked this platform bed for her. We put her bed in it. We like painted it. So she has her own space. But it's been a process. But we finally or somewhere else. It's in the room. But we finally last night, it was only night four of doing this. And she did not jump in the bed. Oh, so. So she's a smart girl. She's been consuming more treats than I think she's ever known in her life. Like just to reinforce that is her bed, that is her space. But yeah, we're getting there. But yeah, eight years in, we were like, let's switch things up on her. But she's doing great. Interestingly, I also have a dog-related low. So I think that I have discovered the first negative about my apartment, which I overall am just in love with. But next door to me, there's a family. I waved to them and said hi when I was moving in. I haven't met them yet. A couple, two kids, and they have a dog. And the dog is very reactive whenever somebody comes to the door. He sounds like a little guy. And whenever anyone is in the hallway, he loses his mind. And usually it's fine. It's one or two minutes. It's, you know, however long it takes for the UPS guy to do his thing or for whoever got off the elevator to go into their apartment. But there was one day this week on Wednesday where he got going and he went for like three hours. Oh, no. And I felt so bad for him. But at the same time, I had on the noise canceling headphones and he was so shrill. It was, you know, it blocked out some of it, but I could still hear him. And I was trying to write a newsletter and I was like, oh, I hope this doesn't happen often. Like if this happened while we were recording the podcast or, you know, while I was sitting down to write my book, I, oh, I was like, oh, buddy. Is it a puppy or it's just a small dog? It doesn't sound like a puppy. It sounds to me as a non-expert on dog barks, like a small, grumpy old man. OK, yeah. Well, he has a lot of energy then to be barking for three hours. No, I was like, you're going to... Or a lot of anxiety, maybe. You're going to strain your vocal cords. Yeah. Well, it seems like it's not a normal thing. This is the first time. I mean, I've only been here... This is my two-week anniversary in my apartment. But this is the first time that it's been more than two or three minutes. Okay. Well, hopefully it was just a one-off thing. Maybe he's going through something. Maybe his parents are forcing him to sleep in the bed that they painstakingly crafted for him and not the bed with them that he's known for many years of his life. You don't know the full story. I don't know. I don't know his trauma. But fingers crossed it's not a regular thing. Did you ever read that series of articles? I can't remember what outlet, but it was about the woman who moved in next to an apartment with birds? No, but I read one recently about a woman who moved in above a dog kennel where they boarded dogs. Oh, I read that too on Substack. And she talked about nearly losing her mind. Yeah. As someone who really doesn't like repetitive sounds, it would be really tough for me. But it sounds like you're not in either of those situations. There are no parrots, no dog kennels. So fingers crossed it doesn't come up again for you. Fingers crossed. Well, let's take an ad break and then I want to get to your book. This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. The other day we were standing in the kitchen and Jake just looked at me and he said something like, when I see the first crocus pop up at the end of winter, I think I'm going to cry. And I have never related to anything more. It has been a long, brutal, cold winter. As I stare out the window right now, it has just started heavily snowing once again. So it is also far from over. And this is why I have just been fully leaning into comfort and burrowing inside my home with books and blankets and pajamas as much as possible. And if you are hoping to do the same, Cozy Earth's bamboo pajama set or their classic cuddle blanket can make your winter even better. I'm also thinking about how to make my new home feel as comfortable and cozy as possible. And one thing that's definitely not going anywhere is my cuddle blanket. We're recording first thing today. I was a little salty that I had to get off the couch where I was so nice and cozy under this blanket. I think what makes it really special is the weight. I weighed it once last year and it's 13 pounds. So I think a traditional weighted blanket is supposed to be 15% of your body weight. So it's not quite as heavy as my weighted blanket, but it is really substantial. And there's something, it's so soft too, but putting it over myself, I just instantly relax. Cozy Earth brings a little indulgence to everyday life so you can slow down and savor the season. Share a little extra love this February and wrap yourself or someone you care about in comfort that feels truly special. Head to CozyEarth.com and use our code BOP for up to 20% off. And if you get a post-purchase survey, be sure to mention that Bat on Paper sent you there. Okay, before we get into it, a very hefty spoiler warning. Olivia, you were telling me that we recently got a review, that somebody was mad, that we talked about the ending of Best Offer Wins in Book Club. Yes. So maybe we should just do this. We should have like air horns. We should have like turn back now signs. Like this will spoil the book for you. If you have not read it, come back to this after you read. We'll be here. We're talking about everything. thing. So if you shouldn't be here, now's your time to turn it off. Yes, go listen to another episode. We have a lot of them. But come back after you read Olivia's book because you're going to want to hear us talk about all of these spoilers. Yes, please do. I wrote this plot summary, but I feel weird summarizing your book to you. You can read my words. You can tell us in your own words. I'll read it because I feel like it's a nice departure from me having to sort of pitch it from memory and it just feels so repetitive. And I always feel like I can be doing a better job. So I will read it. And thank you for writing it. So Little One follows Catherine, who grew up in a wellness-centric cult. And as an adult, she has done everything she can to distance herself from the past. But when a journalist comes sniffing around with questions, her carefully crafted life is threatened. But she might be willing to risk it to find a sister she loved, then lost. That was great. see much better than what I've been doing. So thank you for honestly giving me a break from my own pitch. You're so welcome. So I need some context before we dive into the book. For you, what is your personal Mount Rushmore of cult novels? Or what are the other books that you see this novel being in conversation with either directly or indirectly? You know what? I didn't read a lot of cult novels before starting this book at all. As a researcher in your life? In my life. There wasn't a series of cult books that I read that then inspired me writing this book. After I started writing it, I noticed them a lot more and I sought some out. I read the book Seductive Poison, which came out in 1998, which is about Jonestown. I remember that being my initial research. But that was really it. And then I started to notice books that had more in common with it. I always say that Chelsea Beaker's books, Godshot and Madwoman, if you were to combine them, and I read both of these long after Little One was done, but if you were to combine them, they really have a lot of shared DNA with Little One. But I didn't consume a lot of them. Surprisingly, and everyone is always really shocked about this, I've never read The Girls by Emma Klein ever. That's not what's shocking to me. What's shocking is that I feel like if there's a new cult documentary, I know that you're going to watch it the first weekend it comes out. So it's surprising to me that you hadn't found yourself drawn to fictionalized cult stories before this. You know, what's kind of funny is that when I started writing this book, I was not as big of a reader as I am now. It was before I started doing the podcast. I was still a reader, but I was really kind of coming back to it after being a more casual reader for most of my early 20s. And so I think I just didn't read the same way. Yeah. I mean, I still read, but it wasn't like I read now. It was like I'm reading one or two books a month, not five or six. Yeah. And that's a big difference when it comes to like choosing the content and the themes and stuff. And I just thought about books a lot differently. But I think that if there was any inspiration for this novel in terms of cult-specific content, it was the docuseries. It was the NXIVM series and all of the spinoffs and just all of that came out over the years. Well, what was the seed kernel of the idea for Little One? Because listeners might remember that even though this is your second book to publish, it was the first book you started. So what about this idea made you say, it is time to sit down and write a novel, something I have never done before, in which a sane person would not expect to be easy? Yes, I very much did not put a lot of thought into it, which it's kind of embarrassing to say. But my sort of most concrete memory of this is that I read The Push by Ashley Audrain, and it just hit me in this way where I thought, oh, I want to write something that has this effect on someone just like this book had this effect on me. And I have been writing all my life. I have been writing essays for so long. And I think I was just in this phase of my career where I was kind of just trying everything. I was doing a lot of different jobs. I was doing influencing. I was doing freelance writing. I was writing essays for free on my newsletter. And I just felt very free, I guess, to experiment, to try things. And so, yeah, I just woke up one morning and I just opened a Google Doc. I can't say that I went to bed thinking like, I'm going to start this tomorrow even. But I think the kernel was really this idea of a person growing up in a very specific, controlled, tight knit community. That's what I kept thinking of. Less than I was thinking about cults, I was thinking about that and what that experience would do to a person and specifically to a woman. And that was really it. I had truly nothing else. I live near Catherine Street. I named the character Catherine. And so it began. That's so interesting that it wasn't a cult to begin with, because I think I've seen you kind of, or maybe it's your publisher, kind of waffle on calling it a cult, which is interesting because it does start as something very different than what it evolves into, both in the past timeline and then also in the present timeline where Catherine gets more context and is thinking about it with her adult brain. So it's really interesting that you didn't even start it as a cult novel. No, I mean, I think that definitely came into it pretty early, especially when I started thinking about how much I like these sort of cult docuseries. But there was definitely a lot of discussion about if we should use the word cult, should we use community? Should we have that be a sort of reveal or should it be very obvious from how you pitch it? And I think the thing is that different versions of that will work for different readers. But I'm kind of fine with just calling it a cult now because, you know, that's what it is. But I didn't want it to feel like that in a lot of the past chapters, even though it's obvious. But I wanted it to be really clear as you're within Catherine's perspective that it doesn't feel like that to her, even though that's very clearly what it is. Yep. Well, I also remember you talking about you were sitting on a first line for a book for years. And the line was, when the plane went down, I was thinking about donuts. And I asked you about that at our strand event. It was originally in this book, but you couldn't really tell me more because spoilers are in play. But now that we're talking spoilers, I need to know how that originally fit in. And more broadly, I'm curious if you can kind of talk to us about how the book changed throughout various drafts. Yes. So I talked about this line a bit, but I will get more into the meat of it here. I've been thinking about how it used to factor in. There's no doughnuts. There's no doughnuts. But there was the plane. I think I was less sure how it was going to come into play towards the end of the book. But the donuts originally in the first draft of this book, I think I was kind of inspired by the sort of sexy thriller that was Verity. Like I liked there being some sort of relationship within the body of a thriller. And when I started writing this, I was like, it was literally called Olivia Writes a Thriller. That was the title of the Google Doc. And so I wanted there to be some sort of relationship. So in the early drafts, Reese was actually her husband. And in the past chapters you learn how they meet And so the donuts became this thing where Catherine goes to a kind of county fair and the purpose of being there is to recruit other people into you know their community and while she's there she meets this guy named Reese who eventually introduces her to all the things that she is not allowed to have in her community which includes sugar and donuts so that was the first original version of it. And in a lot of ways, I think that line sort of brought me to the cult's hyper fixation on food and ingredients and controlling what people eat. But it was through this very weird other path. So it was always alternating past and present chapters. And in the present, you see Catherine and Reese and their relationship. And in the past, you realize that they came to be together in this very non-traditional way. Was he always a journalist or he was just her husband. No, he was just her husband. So for a long time, gosh, this is very weird because talking about like past versions of the book, because the fear is like, someone will be like, that will be better. No, this is fascinating. I want every author to have to disclose kind of the major changes and what it went through. I think I may be more obsessed with this because with the Christmas Orphans Club, I underwrote the first draft and it got fleshed out as the drafts went. But the meat of it really stayed the same. And with this second book, I think I realized how much can change in editing and kind of almost the ghost ships of other books. It almost was. Tell me everything. I'm fascinated. Yeah, I hope it's inspiring to someone out there who feels like they have to get it right or know what they're doing in the first draft, because truly you can discover things through plots that you never even use. But my vague idea for this version of it was that you have in the past Catherine and Reese meeting, you have in the present them as a couple. And Catherine is sort of beginning to become suspicious that Reese is doing something nefarious, like maybe cheating on her. And essentially, the big reveal was going to be that her father controlled every single point of her life, that he controlled their meeting, that he had Reese under his thumb the whole time. and that Reese was really this person he had chosen to carry on the community in the next iterations of it. So that was kind of my vague idea. If you had to ballpark it, how much of that original draft survived to the finish? I would say 40 to 60 percent. Okay. There was still a lot that stayed, especially around like Catherine's personality, the scenes where it's just her, which in the present timeline, there are quite a few. But yeah, a lot, a lot changed, obviously, because I couldn't figure out how to put the pieces together in a way that felt right. And so I kind of just started from scratch. And yeah, Ghost Ship for sure. There's another version of it that was that, but I think it ended up how it was supposed to be. Yeah. But yes, that is the donuts. That's the donuts. Oh my God, I'm fascinated. Okay. So going to the past timeline in the actual book, we see Catherine, it sounds like much younger than we saw her maybe in the first draft. Did it start in the same place? I think we played with the ages quite a bit. One of the most difficult things about this book is that in the present timeline, it's very chronological. So it's like you're following Catherine of the course of a few weeks or maybe a month. In the past timeline, you're spanning years. And so balancing that out was really tricky. And I was so tempted to just start at 14 and go to 18. But I think it was really necessary to show her very young and to show what it was like before. And something that kept coming up in edits with my agent and my editor was like, you really want this sense of like careening down a hill of it's getting worse and worse and worse. And so fine tuning that was difficult and definitely played into how we, you know, aged her in certain chapters and where we placed her in time. Well, it's both that she gets older and can understand things differently. But it does also seem to me that the group got more extreme as it went along. And so it starts as maybe not a cult. Maybe it's just kind of a crunchy commune, but it becomes much more nefarious. Were there real groups that you were researching to inform this cult or was this fully from your brain? Obviously, it's fully from your brain. But, you know, were you thinking about real cults? I was, but more in the like, it was like a cult soup, you know, it was a little of this, a little of that. Terrible soup. It was much more like flavors of things than an actual one-to-one comparison, because I think I was really hesitant to have it be inspired so much by one thing. And because of that, it just sort of took pieces. Like, for example, you know, Sister Wives, it's not about a cult. It's a family, a marriage. There are arguments there that there are similar elements in terms of control and patriarchal systems. But there's a specific plot point that's inspired by something that happens in Sister Wives. And, you know, there are references to NXIVM. There are things pulled from like the general vibe of cults that all of them share rather than one that gets worse and worse. But, you know, and I've talked about this at events, but to be honest, like all of these groups, all these communities, what they have in common is that they cannot sustain, you know, they cannot sustain the thing like the stakes have to get higher. The rules have to get more intense and it spins out and it becomes dangerous almost every time or it fails because it's just not sustainable. So, yeah, I don't know if that answers your question at all, but that's some answers. No, it does. And I was also really struck when I was rereading it this week, the overlap between some of the group's earlier ideology and the Maha Make America Healthy Again movement, which you finished this book over a year ago. I don't know that that was as prevalent as it is now. Was the online conversations that were a precursor to that movement something you were paying attention to as you were actually writing this book? Or is it just happenstance that it kind of intersects with this piece of reality? It's kind of both. I think something that really heavily influenced the book is the podcast maintenance phase, which does deep dives into health trends, diet trends. There's a whole episode on raw milk, for example, which is a very sort of Maha coded thing. And the way they would tell these stories of these health trends and rules and groups and fads, it just all had, much like cults, it all had a very similar trajectory of events. It all had similar language and similar messaging. So I really pulled from listening to those episodes and learning about all of these things that have been in our culture when it comes to health. And yeah, so much of it, like I said, has to do with Maha, like, you know, beef tallow and raw milk. And, you know, I think sourdough even to a certain extent, like has some sort of weird cult-like following behind it if you really get into it. Not to say that sourdough is inherently evil or anything. I love sourdough bread. But in terms of like, this is the pinnacle of how you should be eating bread. It's like, this will save you. And if you eat this type of bread, then you're good. And same with raw milk and all of that. So I think it was just kind of a coincidence that the timing overlapped. I do remember I got my edit letter, my first note from my editor right after the election. And I think we talked about how there are a lot of themes in this book of like, perpetuating things that harm women as a woman. And I think that is so vibrantly present in the Maha movement as well. So yeah, there was some talk of it afterwards, but it definitely wasn't something that I thought about through every edit or anything. Well, I heard that what you were thinking about, I feel like I'm just stalking you on the internet. I don't know why I know this, But I heard that at one of your book events, you were asking the audience what little sea cults they'd been a part of. And I'd love to hear you talk more about that and how it informed the group here and the thematic content of the book overall. Oh, gosh. Did I ask people what little sea cults they've been part of? I guess I probably did. Maybe you said you were thinking about what little sea cults you'd been part of. the phrasing really struck me. And so I just I filed it away that I wanted to talk about it. Yeah, I thought about this with myself a lot. Like I thought about how many trends or fads or, you know, groups I've been a part of that really gave me the same feeling that Catherine has, which is like, one, you just don't want to be alone in whatever you're doing. You want someone next to you who's like, I believe the same thing. I'm striving for the same things. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to do it. And if it feels shitty along the way, well, we're going to be in that together. I've been in that situation so many times, specifically with diets, a million times. I can't tell you the amount of times I tried to get a friend in high school or college to do a diet with me because it just felt so much easier to know we were both struggling through the same struggle. And so maybe that's not inherently harmful. Becoming someone who's obsessed with Peloton or obsessed with SoulCycle is inherently cult-like, of course. But there are similar things in terms of the language and the need to be part of something and the rules and the, if I do this, I feel good about myself. And not because I feel healthier or I feel more energized, but because I am fitting into a certain box of a person who does this. And so that's what I was thinking of. Even beauty standards to some extent. Yes, for sure. And in past versions of the book, I had a lot more about like fashion trends and stuff like that. Like just, and I think we all do this. Definitely I do this. Like blindly sort of opting into something or paying for something just for the feeling of like being in a group of people who are safer or better or cooler. Oh my God, just look at hair parts. It's true. It's true. Is the middle part a cult? Today we will investigate. I mean, it's not a big C cult, but that we believe that it is superior and I'll change our hair has some lowercase C cult-like qualities. Yeah, I think the thing is the thing that like the big sea cults and the little sea cults share is this idea that like if I adhere to this set of rules, this one rule, middle part, then I will be saved in some way for myself. Like before I felt less than and with this, I'm going to feel good. Yeah. And that's what I need to get there. And I have to check this box to do it. And like, it's such a common narrative, but it's inherently false because once you do that, there's going to be another thing. And that's how cults operate, too. Well, not a cult specifically, but another group dynamic in specifically the past section of this book is the pull that Catherine's family has on her. Her father is the leader of this group. Her best friend and sister is there. Her mom is there, who later becomes sick, which makes it untenable that Catherine would even consider leaving. It cultivates a much deeper sense of loyalty. This is not just a cult for Catherine. It's her family. She's not some crunchy 20-something looking to find herself. In order to cut ties with this, she is also cutting ties with her family. Can you talk more about how you played with the family dynamics in the book? Yeah, I think I always knew that I wanted this community to be something that's like woven into the DNA of Catherine. And to me, what better way to do that than to have like it literally woven into the DNA of Catherine by it being run by her father and populated by the only people she has really ever known. And specifically with her mother and with Linna, who's her sister, essentially, I wanted them both to represent like this push and pull that I think is sometimes present for all of us when it comes to these highly controlled, you know, systems or rules or groups. And it's like, there is this part of you who feels like when someone says, oh, this is ridiculous. I'm not doing this. As Linna says, you know, there's part of you that's like, oh, I feel something inside and I think I agree with them. But there's also part of you that says like, oh, well, I'm stronger than them. I can see more clearly than them. And with her mother, it was almost like the opposite in some ways. And at times it was the same as Lena. Just this idea of like, you want so badly to be part of something. You think that your gut instinct that you shouldn't be in it for whatever reason is just weakness, you know, is just like laziness. Well, it felt like To me, her mom much more wanted to leave and was being coerced both by her father holding her relationship with Catherine and then later her health. But it did seem like under other circumstances, her mom maybe had more understanding of what was happening. Yes. And I think Catherine's awareness of her mom's feelings about the place really sort of evolved over time. But I think, yeah, eventually it gets to a place where Catherine sees her mother as weak as well for a lot of different reasons. And I think also there was something really interesting that I wanted to play with about like, you know, her mother brings her into this world, you know, and serves it to her and then says like, oh, but, you know, eventually, you know, wants to leave. And the confusion that happens in that, I think, is something that would be really disorienting. And I wanted Catherine to have to deal with that. Absolutely. I want to loop back to that when we talk about adult Catherine, but I fully agree with you. And one more thing I want to talk about in the past is that I noticed a common thread with such a bad influence is that the book centers around a sister relationship, but you only have a brother. Is this purposeful that this is something that you're drawn to exploring time and time again? Or is it just a coincidence that this made sense for the plot? But funnily enough, in both books, the sisters were originally cousins. So yes. And then with time, we realized that they should be closer. But I think that in a way, it's just like I'm interested in female relationships. And I've always been so interested in comparison and like the women around us and like how we lift each other up and tear each other down, sometimes all in the same day. And so it really is just coincidence. But next book, there are no sisters. So I'm moving on. But I think it is just coincidence. Yes. I keep writing sisters into my books, too. And also sisters with semi-distant relationships, maybe because I don't know how to write a close sister relationship because I don't have sisters. But I think I am obsessed with, to be clear, I was not an unhappy child being an only child. I don't want any parents of only children to be like, oh, my God, what am I doing? And there were a ton of pros to it. But I do kind of idealize, especially as an adult, having that sister who was raised the same way you were, who you can reflect back on that with. Like, I do really romanticize that as an adult. Yes. Even as someone with sibling, I too sort of romanticized, also feared what a sister relationship would be like. And I think also because it is so far from my realm of my reality, it was a way to distance myself from the story a bit because so much of it is very close to me. It's first person. It's really hard to go from writing an essay the next day writing first person fiction and not have a lot of you slip into it. So I think it was an easy way for me to be like, well, I don't have a sister. So it created some distance. Let's look to the present now. So we meet Catherine as an adult who has constructed this extremely rigid life for herself, both in terms of her day to day routine, but then also in terms of how she interacts with others, what she shares of herself with others. She almost has this shadow life where nobody actually knows the real her. And I know you identify as a pantser, as a writer, meaning that you don't go in with an outline. So I'm curious if you were writing both versions of Catherine in parallel, or did getting to the end of that first timeline impact how present-day Catherine evolved in later drafts? I was writing them in parallel the whole time. So of all the things that stayed the same, present day Catherine is very similar to the first draft, if not identical. Well, I'm asking because it feels so masterful that I can completely see how what she experienced as a child and especially things that happened much later would have impacted how she operated as an adult. She does hold everyone in arm's length, but there's something about specifically her feeling naive that both Linna and her mom had planned to leave the cult and she didn't know she didn't want to leave. And as an adult, her seemingly being terrified of being caught on the back foot again, she needed to know everything. She needed to control everything so that she didn't get surprised. She didn't feel like an idiot. And then also like how that came up for her. I mean, we already gave a spoiler warning, but like even more intense spoiler warning, but discovering how naive she was as an adult, not realizing that her father had killed her mother and Ben and Bertie. yeah like being confronted with her worst fear like it all felt so interwoven to me that it's so masterful that you were writing this in parallel and it did feel like the later parts of the past timeline so clearly informed Catherine from chapter one oh well thank you in a lot of ways this book was always just me and Catherine so I feel like I just understood I understood her completely, even if I didn't understand the exact circumstances that would get her to this person. I understood the feelings very clearly, I think. And so I won't say it made it easy, but it made it easier, I guess, to weave them together, even as I changed the plot 900 times. Do you feel closer to Catherine or Hazel? I've just spent so much more time with Catherine, you know. And in a lot of ways, I think of Catherine and I think of me, you know, in 2021, just sitting at my computer and not having any clue whatsoever what I was doing and still like being brave enough to try. try. And so I feel deep affection for her and for how much she completely changed my life because were it not for her in that book, in that first draft, I would not have gotten the deal for Sabi and so on and so forth. So I feel a lot of things for her. So I think I feel closer to her in that way. I'm also kind of sick of her sometimes. But yeah. Both things can be true. Well, continuing Going on with me stalking you on the internet, I saw that you did a great interview with the author Tao Tai, who has been a past guest here for her newsletter about unlikable female characters. And I'm curious how you think about Catherine's likability. Weirdly, I don't think that much about her likability, which probably sounds ridiculous because I really like the idea of unlikable female characters just as like a cultural phenomenon. I'll always remember, this is kind of going on a tangent, I will always remember how often people in my life, when Hillary was running against Donald Trump, how often people would just be like, she's just not very likable. Or the Anne Hathaway, I don't like her, but I can't put my finger on it. Right. And the fact that would be relevant, particularly when she is running against perhaps the most unlikable human being I can imagine on Earth, and that has proven to be true in so many ways. It's just always struck me as so ridiculous. And so like the game is rigged against us. It's like if you have any bit of strength or whatever, if you show any part of yourself, any softer part of yourself, or even like more bitter parts of yourself, like you're just labeled as unlikable just for being a human being in a way that is never the case for men. And so that's why I love celebrating the idea of unlikable female characters, because I think women who are honest and who are real are so much more interesting than women who are polite and women who are understandable and easily definable. So yeah, I really never thought like, people like her I just always thought like I thought about me as a reader And I thought if I read this character would I see part of myself and what I feel understood in some way that I never had before And the answer was yes And that was really all I had And my hope is that there are other women who read who feel like oh I felt this way in some way in my life, even though I'm not in a cult, even though I didn't grow up this way. And that was all that was important to me, whether she was likable or not. That's really interesting to me because in the genre that I write in, my next book is more firmly contemporary romance. I don't really know what we want to classify the Christmas Orphans Club is. It's romance adjacent, but it's not truly romance. But there is such a strong mandate for characters to be likable. and we had so many conversations about Hannah, who's the protagonist of the Christmas Orphan Slubber, one of the POV characters, and her likability in the edits for that book and concern over whether she would be likable enough. I always had so much empathy for her and it's really hard to think about. And also that was my first book and I think we share some DNA similar to you and Catherine And it's like, oh, is this almost being told I'm unlikable in ways? But there is an expectation of likability in romance because I think so much of the genre demands readers be able to self-insert and to be able to experience the character's journey or their emotional journey. Even if I'm not falling in love with a billionaire, but I need to go on the emotional journey of this hypothetical character. And, you know, I think it's really rare for romance protagonists to be straight up unlikable. Like I think about Kate Goldbeck has written two books. And in both cases, her main characters are very spiky. And I feel comfortable saying this because I think she would say the same. I don't know her. I don't know how much she had to fight for that or what the conversations were. But it's really it's really a rarity. Like in a lot of cases, when romance protagonists are unlikable, it's by accident. It's not by design. Do you have like strategies or how do you think about, because obviously you have to think about like ability, like when you're thinking about that, how do you insert it? Like, do you go from relatability? Do you go on charm, dialogue? Or is it just something that's on your mind constantly? It's something that's on my mind constantly. I do think that there's a specific scene in a romance novel that I don't think I necessarily understood until writing this book of seeing the character's wound. And I'm trying to think of what, because I don't want to spoil another book that isn't our book club pick and tell you what this is. I'm trying to think if there's something that's popular enough or, oh gosh, I don't know how to explain this without spoiling something. But basically, seeing a scene that explains any personality defects or flawed thinking that character has so you understand the why. You know, it's like in the movie Never Been Kissed. I think this is a fair one. It's, you know, it's that moment where what did they do to her in high school? Did they was it the dog food or the carry blood or something? You know, like there was that moment where you see and you're like, oh, yes, I understand why you are the way that you are. Yeah. Josie Grossie. Yeah. I don't even know if that... I might be describing the present timeline. I might have really screwed this up here. I think you got it. I think you got it. That's a good example. I think spoilers are okay when the piece of media is 30 years old. Yeah, but I'm not even sure I nailed the plot point, but whatever. So I think that if you can nail that, that really helps with likability or at least being able to empathize with the character. But yeah, I think it's everything. I think it's dialogue. I think it's how this person interacts with their friends, with the world. You know, there's the whole thing of Save the Cat and the whole analogy of Save the Cat is a series of popular screenwriting, novel writing books. And the analogy is that if your character is unlikable, they should save a cat in the first. I guess this is an old piece of screenwriting advice. They should save a cat in the first act so that you like them more. Yeah, I actually kept thinking about that with this book because I was like, oh, do I have anything that makes her? and I was like maybe I don't but yeah I don't know if you necessarily need it every time though that's the thing well in this genre I don't and I as I was saying before I did feel like going through the past timeline as we got deeper and deeper into what I understood why she was the way she was more and like on an extreme level I do think that there's something very relatable to present-day Catherine's interiority and like how she constructs other people's perceptions of her via either changing herself or leveraging information strategically. I don't know if you were thinking of this, but it seems like there's maybe a metaphor for our social media personas in there. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if I was thinking about that directly while writing, but yeah, I really wanted her to illustrate this idea and this experience that I think so many of us have on social media and in real life where you present something, but behind the scenes is a whole world of shit going on. And that's all of us. But in terms of like presenting a person who is more evolved than the wounds of their childhood, you know, but behind the scenes, it's like, it's all still right there. And this constant push and pull battle of like, well, am I beyond all of that? Or am I in the exact same place I was when I was eight? Or is it constantly a cycle where it's both and you're just trying to outrun one and be in the other. And I wanted people to feel that when they were inside her head. Yeah. Changing topics. I was really surprised by the romantic undercurrent between Catherine and Reese, although it sounds like in this ghost version. But are you surprised now? Less surprised now. But I very specifically remember there was one chapter where he comes over to her apartment. He's a little drunk and she's in her pajamas. And I really wondered if we were headed for a sex scene. And was there ever a draft of this that did veer into erotic thriller territory? Because you were saying Verity before, which I think of as an erotic thriller. Was that more the tone of the first draft? I wouldn't say the first draft was ever like an erotic thriller, but there was definitely more of an undercurrent that is present in that specific scene with Reese and Catherine in the book as it exists now. And I think it was just the more I understood Catherine and the more I understood what she would be drawn to and who she was, it kind of made sense to me that she would see sexuality and flirtation as a form of power in the same way that her father did. Like you kind of get the sense that her father brought women in romantically in some way exactly and so yeah that's kind of it felt right to me that one Reese would deduce her to like this sort of caricature of womanhood and also that she would try to use it against him yeah yeah and I just used the word thriller and I know the original document name was Olivia Wright's a thriller but you wouldn't necessarily classify this as a thriller, would you? What would you call it? I don't know. I've seen so many. It's so interesting to see what people call it when they tag me in reviews and stuff. I have no problem with the word thriller. I just worry that it is not the textbook definition of a thriller. I think it's technically shelved as general fiction. I call it suspense. I feel like that covers a lot of things. And I've come to realize the thriller is more of like a there's a body there's a you know which I think this book does have a lot of that and so I'm never like offended or anything when anyone calls it a thriller I'm like glad it's more about expectation setting I've seen some people calling it like a genre mashup which I don't really know if I thought about it that way ever but I think suspense is sort of all-encompassing and when I think about the books I love and the books I like try to see is inspiration, there are almost always some version of suspense, whether it's emotional suspense or more straightforward thriller-like suspense. So that's what I go with. Well, regardless of what we're calling it, I think the twists in this book are a key ingredient to it. The first thing that shocked me was the realization that Reese's source was not Linna, along with Catherine. I was very shocked. And then Catherine killing her father. And then, of course, we have the ending. As you've written two books in this suspense, maybe one foot in thriller territory, have you kind of developed any theory on leveraging twists and how many there need to be and like where they need to go? Is that something you're thinking about almost mathematically? Or does this all just happen kind of organically? Or does it get reverse engineered where you're like, we need another twist? I wish I was thinking about it mathematically. No, I find twists really hard. But yeah, it's more of like there needs to be something here. There needs to be something there. This needs to be dialed up. This needs to be dialed down. This happens too late. That kind of thing. Yeah. So it's a bit of reverse engineering. I think the twist about killing her father was always, it was probably always there. But to me, it felt very obvious, like always that was going to happen. So I didn't want that to be the twist. Oh, I didn't think so. I could have seen a world in which he was still out there. oh well that's good i did try to pepper that in i'm truly well i'm i'm the easiest to surprise in a thriller whenever when grace was my co-host whenever grace and i talk about thrillers she can predict any twist and i anything surprises me so i guess i'm a well i appreciate that i guess i'm not the right barometer to go on but i was surprised by that i definitely thought there there could have been that he could have gone and started another cult that he could still be out there. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I guess I thought of it like this is what makes the most sense, but I want people, even if people are like, okay, I think this is what happened. I want there to be some things along the way that make people question that. So I'm glad that worked for you. Well, we need to go deeper on, to my mind, the biggest twist on the ending. So like with Sabi, you have this shocking twist that's kind of left open to interpretation. Like I've gotten texts from friends about this. My friend Lydia texted me and she's like, what happened at the end? Am I reading this right? So do you intend for it to be open-ended? Like, are you willing to tell us how you perceive the ending? Like, I want to know, is Mary and Earl Linna, like, is the epilogue the first steps of Catherine starting her own cult? Like, how does it exist in your mind? Yes. So, okay, how do I want to approach this? I will tell you my vision for it. I didn't know if this is an offensive question to ask a certain type of writer, because I feel like when we interviewed Katie Kitamura, she was very much like, it's up to you to decide. Yes, I think there is something about this ending that is up to the reader to decide, but maybe it's not whether or not she's starting her own community, which in my vision she was. but rather does she know that she is? Or does she think that she is starting her own version of how she grew up? Or does she not? And if she doesn't, does that make it okay? Or does it not? Oh, I very much read it as this was deeply intentional. But I thought the murkier part was, is this a cult or not? Oh, interesting. And I think it ties into what you were saying about the Little Sea cults of, is this a wellness retreat? Is this Canyon Ranchi or something that exists that is perfectly palatable by societal standards? Or is this more nefarious? Yeah. And I think that part is also open to interpretation based on your experiences with these things. And I think the thing is that someone might attend that group that Catherine is starting and have one experience and someone might have a complete other, you know. And I think that's part of it as well. But I think when you think about all of the similarities with her father, you think about how she's raised, you think about how calculating she is. I think there is a version where she knows exactly what she's doing when she starts this community. But I think there's another version where she thinks that it's something different. You know, she thinks that it's something better, something safer, something completely unlike the way that she grew up and just doesn't realize yet that it's the same. Yeah. What about my other question? You skirted that. Is Linna Mary and Earl? Yes. And there are little Easter eggs about that throughout. So the biggest one, I guess, is that in the past chapters, they're listening to a song in the car, which is Goodbye Earl by the Chicks. And the song begins, Marianne and Wanda. So Marianne, Marianne, Earl, Earl. But that's really just one for me. There's also things like the cold weather. Linna likes being cold. She wants to go somewhere cold so much. Then Marion lives in the mountains. Linna is obsessed with the library and their community. And then she only gives interviews to this one library-focused outlet. And so the idea is... Oh, this is fascinating to hear you explain... I missed all of these. I read it twice and missed all of these. But to hear the footprints, the kitten prints maybe, that you left from Kittenbrick Cottage? Yeah. The fake epigraph that's at the beginning of the book, which is a part of a book from Mary and Earl, aka Linna, is meant to represent the more hopeful side of the scenario, which is that sometimes you have to just step back from it all and you have to be alone in something, but know yourself better because of it. And so in my mind, And Linna did get away from all of this. And from afar, she saw Catherine becoming a lot like their father. And she knew that, you know, as much love as she might have for her, she can't engage in it again. So that is that, I guess. That is less open to interpretation. But yeah. Well, wait, this goes beyond text of the book. But in the book, Catherine finds out that Mary and Earl is writing a memoir. Is it an honest memoir? Is it about the cult? I can't remember. This is to show you. It never actually comes out in the book. It doesn't come out in the book. No, no, no. But it's announced that she's she says in an interview that she's working on a memoir. Yes, that's a great question. I don't know. I never thought about that. Because that would be interesting where it's like, does she become a competitor to Catherine in this way? Because Catherine's making the documentary. And then, you know, theoretically, if Mary and Earl was telling the truth and not focusing on her later years. maybe in an imaginary sequel. Yeah. We find out dueling cult survivors. Totally, totally. Okay, so do you feel like this type of ending, this type of like very shocking epilogue, open to interpretation ending is an Olivia Mentor hallmark after two books? Like I know I've heard authors like Ellen Hildebrand have talked about pressure from their publisher to do the same thing but differently. Was there any case of that here? Or is this just how you, I don't know, you tell me. I'm not sure. I have something in mind for the third book that isn't exactly like this sort of feeling that I think both the epilogues leave you with, or at least I hope they do. But it's something in that realm. And my agent and I have sort of talked about like, this is the thing that will be the sort of hallmark that's through all of my books. But I also really have fantasies of just ending a book and everyone having the same emotional experience. As much as I love people in my DMs being like, oh, am I right in thinking this? And the thing about this book so far, which is a little better, is I don't get people being like, presenting a completely alternate theory that I hadn't even considered what happened with such a bad influence. Mostly it's people getting it or just wanting to be sure that they get it, which is 100% the point of that ending. So it feels successful. But I think that I would love the experience also of it just being more black and white in a way. But I don't even know if I can write that. I'm not sure. So maybe not. Okay. Maybe not. And we'll see if the book three, that's sort of a twist, I guess. We'll see if I can pull it off because right now it is unclear. To be discussed in the book club for that book. Yes. Okay. So switching gears, I would love to talk more about the publication process for this book. So this was the first book that you started. And then you paused in the middle of drafting it to write Sabi, such a bad influence. And then you came back to little one. So in a way, it's both your first effort and your sophomore novel rolled into one. And I've heard you talk so much about growing as a writer and especially going into book three, feeling like you could have done it better. But I'm curious if there are ways that you feel like your growth as a writer or your learnings are on display here from Sabi, writing Sabi, and then going back to this. And I would like to invite you to be as braggadocious and unmodest as possible. Okay, I'll try. I very strongly do think I'm a better writer, and I think you can see it in the book. And this might be just ego, but the few times people have described it as literary in some way means so much to me because prose is so important to me. And it's hard to know when you're writing, like, is this a good sentence that, you know, is beautiful to someone or is it just beautiful to me? And I do think that like, I have just improved language wise a lot because I have worked for so many more years. I also think I have just become a little bit better at following gut instincts on things and not just deferring to what's easiest or what everyone says. Give me an example. There was always an aspect of the book in later drafts where I felt like it didn't have a bow on it. You know, I really wanted it to feel like you get to the last page and you're compelled to go back in some way. Or I wanted the first page to speak to the last in a better way. And I also never liked the fact that it started with dialogue. Frankly, I still kind of don't like that. The first sentence is dialogue. What's the first sentence? I don't have my book in front of me. It's just push, which fun fact is slightly inspired by the push because I had my agent said, I think it should start in action, which of course didn't actually have to mean literally running. But I was sitting at my desk and I had the push in front of me, the book, and it inspired me so much. And so I left it. And in the acknowledgements, I thanked Ashley Aldrin because it's like my little nod to her that this is the book that made me start writing in a lot of ways. So anyway, I am glad that it starts with that word for that reason. But I like a novel that starts with prose, not dialogue. And so I kept thinking about all of these things. And then I had added in the Marian Earl plotline. And then I thought of the idea of the epigraph. So wait, are you implying the Marian Earl plotline got added towards the last draft? Yes. Wow. I added, yeah, the whole thing. Oh my God. Yeah. That's fascinating to me. This is like, oh God, I just want to spoil other books for you. Nevermind. I went to a talk with Lily King and she was talking about Heart the Lover. And we talked about this in the book club for that. So go listen to that episode and I'll tell you what the thing is that she added at the 11th hour. But I was fascinated to hear that. I'm equally fascinated to hear this. It was really the result of getting my first edit letter and just thinking, okay, here are 10 things I need to fix. What is one thing that could maybe achieve all of it? And I sent the draft to my editor. It was like three months almost that I had to wait. And you probably remember I was freaking out because I was like, this is an entire plot line that she could hate. But I think it worked really well. And anyway, so when I thought about the idea of making sort of a fake epigraph, which is sort of a, I don't know, it's kind of a silly thing in a lot of ways. Have you ever had a real epigraph? I've heard real epigraphs are a nightmare to clear. That's why I haven't. Yeah. It would be something like in the last minute I think of it and they'd be like, oh, you have to get this approved by the writer's estate or you have to pay for it. And so I never have. So I just have this fake one. Someone did share a photo of it, though, and I think thinking it was real. And they were like, wow, I love this. And I was like, well, I love this. Can't we agree to go look up and try to read this book? but you know I so I thought of this idea I sat down I wrote the epigraph what I wrote like meant so much to me about the hopeful side of the book and like it hit me so intensely that like this is actually what the book is about which is that sometimes you have to give up the safety of what everyone else is doing to find who you actually are and what you actually want and you know so But then Marian Earl is speaking in the very first page of the book and Mary and Earl is speaking in the very last pages of the book And I thought that was such a nice little bow to put on everything while also achieving, technically the first word is still push, it's still dialogue, but it was a little bit different. And so I pitched it to my editor and I was like, very clear. I really feel strongly about this. I really like this idea. It feels so playful and interesting and circular and satisfying to me. And I was really nervous, but I just was like, I feel strongly about this. And she agreed. I don't know how much she agreed, but she liked it too, at least enough to let me do it. So I guess that's one example where I could have just left it and it would have been fine. But to me, it felt better to push that little extra bit and to take a chance on it. You are absolutely blowing my mind right now. I'm obsessed with this conversation. Oh, thanks for the great questions. Honestly, I've talked about so much that I haven't talked about on tour, so it feels really nice. Well, that's the exciting thing about a spoiler conversation that you don't often get to have in any type of author event. It's true. Yeah, it's tough. There are sometimes questions I want to answer, but you really want to be careful about respecting everyone's where they are in the reading process. So also with the publishing process, I want to talk about the title because I know retitling the book is something you were in absolute knots over. I remember being in Portland with you on this press trip that we went on and you had lists upon lists of potential alternate titles. Can you tell us a little bit about that process and then also how you feel about the original title and the final title with more hindsight. Because spoiler, I feel like the final title is so perfect that I cannot imagine that it was almost called anything else. Yes. And it was almost called so many other things. Yeah, it was almost called 8 million different things. Yeah, we'll get into them. But I definitely think it landed on the perfect title and I love it. So as I said, originally, this was called for years. This was just titled Olivia Writes a Thriller. Terrible title. Not a good one. Not good. At one point, I think I had it named as like the House of Catherine West. At one point, the cult was called The House. The community was called The House. This was also around the time where titles with full names were really trendy. So I think that was part of it. Then we submitted it to publishers as the most monstrous thing, which is a part of dialogue that's in the book. And I actually do really like the dialogue, but I never loved it as the title. No, I don't think it's it's not descriptive at all. And that doesn't give me anything after I finish the book versus little one. I feel like I now know an inside joke. Right. And little one has like layers of meaning. Yeah. But my agent and I were both like, well, we can't really think of anything better right now. Titles usually change. So like, let's just put it as a placeholder and whatever. So after the book was acquired, my editor was like, we don't really like the title. And I was like, great. We went through a long, long brainstorm and we came up with Everybody Wants This, which was slightly inspired by that Devil Wears Prada meme where Meryl Streep is like, don't be ridiculous. Everybody wants this. And it's also very similar, if not identical, to a line of dialogue in the first chapter of the book or one of the first chapters. And I really loved it. But then the higher ups didn't like it. It feels like a very different book. Like it feels like a society thriller, like a socialite thriller or something or a con woman thing where somebody has presented themselves as a really rich person. Yes. At the time, I was really frustrated because we had been through absolutely the most painful brainstorms you can ever imagine. It's so hard. And then we finally got to it and then it was like, we're back to square one. And I was like, I don't have any more words in my brain. And I also really liked the title idea, Nothing Tastes as Good, but no one liked that. I do like that one. Which is really funny because now, I don't know if you know this, there is a book coming out, I think next month that is called Nothing Tastes as Good. No, I didn't see that. Yeah, it's also having to do with diet culture and weight loss and all of that stuff. But anyway, good thing we didn't choose that because that was already a thing, apparently. And no one seemed to get on board with it, but I thought it was amazing. But anyway, so then we had this huge brainstorm again, couldn't come up with anything. We had this Google Doc of words and words and words. And I was laying in bed one morning and throughout the book, at this point, Catherine's father would call her darling occasionally. occasionally, and I never liked it. I just always kind of liked the first line. I just had this feeling it's off. Something about it doesn't feel totally right to me. So then I was laying there, and I was just like, well, what if he called her little one instead? And then I suggested it, and everyone liked it. And then my editor was like, oh, and that's kind of funny because she is sort of, in each to the end, she is sort of the little one. She's sort of like the next version. And I was like, oh, didn't even think of that. But that is the story of the title. It was quite the journey. I know it caused you a lot of stress, but it does feel like it ended up in the right place. It was also right before the holidays. So I was like, please, can we get this figured out? Because we weren't going to be able to announce it until we finished the title. And so it was like, I really just want to talk about this. It's been months since we've accepted this. But the whole process was worth it in the end. Okay, I have two more questions. I don't care how long this runs because I'm loving talking to you about this. Okay. So also with this book, you've released a companion podcast called Little Pod that asks questions about yourself as a writer and why you write fiction. And so first of all, I just want to give you a chance to pitch it, but I'm curious if that has changed or been clarified for you from when you started this book to now as you work on your third book, like why you write fiction? I think so. Well, I'll talk about Little Pot in a second. But I think that something it's taught me, I guess, and something the process of writing and publishing two books has taught me is, and you can probably speak to this too, I think there is this thing in the back of my mind with every book where it's like, this is going to be the one that changes everything. This is going to be the one where I become this famous author that everyone knows. That probably sounds ridiculous because I'm just as insecure about everything all the time. But there is this tiny seed of hope that this is going to be it. And when it's not, and I've had successful launches with both my books, but I'm not a nationally known name or anything. It's kind of freeing. It's like, am I willing to do this without that? Am I willing to write the next thing, knowing that too, as much as I believe truly like this is it, this is going to be it. This is going to be the thing that secures this career for me for decades and not just one book at a time. Like, am I willing to go into this process and to give it everything I have and to believe in my books and myself and the stories without that? And the answer is a resounding yes. And I think there's kind of like a relief in that and a comfort in that. And the conversations that I've had on LittlePod have sort of helped me reframe my deep hunger for success, which I still have. I feel so motivated to get to the level I want to get to. But you're also comparing yourself in many cases. And of course, there are people who come right out of the gate. Like an Ashley Audrain came out, her debut book was The Push. But I also know, I hope this isn't too vulnerable for me to say, but I also know that you compare yourself to somebody like a Liz Moore or let's a Barbara Kings lover, people who've been doing this for like eight, nine, like many, many books versus, you know, you're comparing your first book, which is, I do it too. It's such like an easy temptation to compare yourself to somebody who's so much further down the line. Oh, yeah. And I have to remind myself all the time that like, you know, it sometimes takes five, six, seven, eight books and, or it sometimes doesn't happen at all. That's maybe the more likely thing, you know? I think what is scary is that it does feel like potentially publishing as an industry is less willing to take chances. So you don't want to run out of chances before you find the one. Yes, that is true. Yeah. Not you, anyone. That's very scary. Yeah, yeah. I'm speaking for myself. I said you, but I'm not trying to project this onto you. No, no, I agree. And I think that's the aspect of being like now on my third book, like that is scary because it feels like at what point are you out of chances? But I have realized that like, I think no matter what level of success I obtain, I'm going to have self-doubt. I'm going to have imposter syndrome. I've learned that from talking to so many people. And the important thing is always going to be just writing. The important thing is going to be to keep going. And I'm just so much more aware of that, that I have it in me to keep doing that than I was five years ago. So that's what little plot has taught me. That's what all the books have taught me. Okay. To end, what question do you wish someone asked you about this book? Or what is something that you were itching to talk about it, but it was too spoilery for book tour? Gosh, you asked me so many of them. I do like talking about the little Easter eggs with Linna and Mary and Earl and that whole plot line. So you already asked me that. I don't know. I think you covered all of them. I went so deep on so many things I haven't talked about here, especially like the former versions of the book. I just wanted to make sure to leave no stone unturned here. There were secrets that I hadn't unearthed. I think you hit the ball. So thank you for so many amazing questions. Thank you for writing this book. This is so fun to talk to you specifically because I've been on not the full journey of this, but since you became a co-host of the podcast, we're working on this. And so I've seen so much about it happening in real time. And so it's really fascinating to be able to discuss it publicly. Thank you. I'm very excited to pivot and to talk about your book more in the coming weeks and months and years. I think we're getting ready to announce it soon. So we'll see. Very exciting. I can't wait. Shall we get into some end matter? Yes. What is your obsession? My obsession is exploring my new neighborhood. When I moved, it was in that Arctic blast where every day feels like negative eight. And so I feel like I moved and I was kind of just stuck inside. But the past week, it's been in the 40s most days, which after such a cold snap feels luxurious. So over the weekend, I actually ended up having friends in town. My friend Molly was here shopping for a wedding dress and her and her mom stayed in a hotel nearby. And so we got to go to some restaurants and bars in my neighborhood. And then this week, I've just been trying to take walks around. Like yesterday, I took like 45 minutes in the middle of the day. And I kind of just went up one street five blocks and then kind of like went down the next street five blocks and kind of just made a big snake of, you know, the five block radius just to like, I'm like, I want to see, I'm going to map this for myself. But I'm really enjoying having a new neighborhood to explore. What did you listen to on this stroll? Because I feel like this is a very romantic journey, you know? Oh, I was actually catching up on, I really like this podcast I've listened to for years called Happier in Hollywood. And it's two women who are screenwriting partners. And I listened to the most recent two episodes of that. Very fun. Well, it seems like a great place. So fun to like have new things. Happy for you. Thank you. What is your obsession? Much to my surprise, I am very into the new Game of Thrones spinoff. Oh, I haven't heard much about this. Oh my gosh. It's A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. It's based on a George R.R. Martin novella. My friend described it as like Game of Thrones had a baby with Shrek. That's kind of how it feels because the main character is this guy called Duncan the Tall. And he's just this very like lumbering Scottish man who like does kind of look like Shrek. And now was he in Game of Thrones or it's just in the Game of Thrones universe? It's just in the Game of Thrones universe, but it's much more like pastoral. There's like rolling hills. It's really beautiful. There's like very kind of soothing folk music playing throughout, but it is still very graphic. Like there's a lot of gross stuff, which is not my jam. Like it reminded me of that feeling of watching the first season of Game of Thrones where you get to the end of an episode. And you're like, oh, my God, like it's the best at cliffhangers. And so it's just really a nice escape. The most recent episode I literally couldn't watch because it was so gory. And so I just had Jake describe what was happening. But it's been a nice like change of pace from everything else I've been watching. So and there's also a really adorable character named Egg. Oh, so yeah. So I suggest checking it out if you're looking for something new. OK. What have you read? Okay, I read this book called Family Drama by Rebecca Fallon. And this book actually shared a pub date with you. And I haven't seen much about it, but I really, really enjoyed it. So it's set in the late 80s and early 90s. It starts with a funeral. The mother of this family dies and her children are young, like six or seven. And then from there, it kind of goes in two timelines. It goes backwards to when she met her husband and goes through their whole courtship and falling in love and getting married and having kids. And then it goes forward as her kids grow up without their mother. And the conceit of it is, is that they live in this small New England town, but she was a soap opera actress, like a moderately famous or a niche famous soap opera actress. And so she was commuting back and forth to L.A. and then home on the weekends to her family. And so it's very much about having it all. And as her kids grow up, her husband suppresses the information that she was famous. And so her kids grow up not knowing that their mom was an actress. And when they discover it, they react to it in very different ways. That's a very interesting premise. It was a really good premise. It obviously takes place in the late 80s and early 90s, but it felt like the topics felt just as timely today about, you know, being a mother and balancing a family and chasing whatever your career dream is. Sounds interesting. I have seen this around. The cover is... It has a really stunning cover. It's like a woman in an evening gown holding two kids. But I really enjoyed it. Well, good. And that's out now. Yeah, it came out on February 3rd. So it's out. No, there you go. What about you? What did you read this week? I read The Death of Us by Abigail Dean, which is a book that I had seen. You know, it might have actually been Ashley Audrain that I saw a post about this. I was craving sort of like a thriller set in London, which is and isn't what this is. But this is about a couple who, when they're in their early 30s, are victims of a home invasion where many trigger warnings abound, where the woman is raped and they're both deeply traumatized by it. And this is like a serial, it's kind of like a Golden State Killer, serial rapist, serial killer situation. and basically the story is about how the incident impacts this couple's marriage and their relationship spanning decades, not just then, but how it kind of brings them apart, them back together. I think I was expecting a more traditional structure or plot. It's multi-POV. It really jumps around in time. It's not your typical twists and turns, like three-act structure. It's just very different. So if you're looking for a very, very, very well-written, totally different kind of London-set thriller that deals with some very heavy, dark themes, I would very much suggest this. The writing is very, very good. Okay. I also read Helpless by Jessica Knoll, which is out in July. I got an advanced copy of this. I'm excited for this one too. Tell me if you feel this way. I had to read the pitch for this like four times to understand what it was about. I don't even know if I can accurately sum it up. To be honest, I don't even know if I read the pitch for it. I just heard that it's an erotic thriller that's comp to Verity by Jessica Nol and I said, I'm in. Yes. Honestly, that's probably the best description because there's a lot of other things going on. But essentially, it centers around this very toxic, abusive, confusing relationship between this man and this woman that they have in college. And when they come back together after the death of a mentor of this woman, lots of crazy things ensue. This is wild. This is a wild ride. I hope you are ready. It definitely has shades of verity. it had me blushing in certain spots. It goes there. It goes there. It could not be more different than Bright Young Women, which was Jessica Knowles' last book, which I loved. But it's a wild ride. I think that it could really, really, really resonate with people. There was so much I loved about it. I love Jessica Knowles' writing. It's wild though. Buckle up. I'm excited. I feel like you saying it's hard to encapsulate and wild just makes me more excited. Yeah, it really I can't wait to talk to someone else that's read it because it is really hard to talk about without spoiling it or without giving a lot of it away. But yeah. Wow. Well, you might be wondering, what is our March book club pick? And the answer is that we're going I don't know why I said that so strangely. You might. You might. The answer is that we're going to be reading So Old, So Young by Grant Ginder for our March Book Club. And this is a friendship fiction novel. So no surprise that it was my month to pick. The pitch for it is six friends, five parties, 20 years. So you may have heard me talk about this before. We also had Grant on our reading preview episode back in January. But it's told over the course of five parties from when the characters are just out of college. So, you know, there's like a shitty New Year's Eve party when they're in their early 20s. It goes through a destination wedding, and then it goes all the way until they're in their 40s. 40s. And some of them still live in the city and they go to a Halloween party in the suburbs in New Jersey that one of their friends hosts. So it's very much about this group of friends traversing different life phases and friendship statuses. And I've seen some good things in the Facebook group about it too. It's definitely a chocolate pretzel book, a little salty sweet. So I'm excited. I'm excited to I'm certainly excited to discuss it, but I'm also excited to hear what you, Olivia, and then all of our listeners think about it. I'm excited, too. I've heard nothing but amazing things, and I think it'll be great. So we will be discussing that on March 25th, Early Book Club this month. The first is a Wednesday in April. I can't wait. Take us out, Olivia. Where can people find us? Well, if you'd like to discuss anything, my book, other books, you can join us in the Facebook group under Bat on Paper Podcast. We are also in our BFF app under Bat on Paper Podcast. We're on Instagram under Bat on Paper Podcast. I am on Instagram and sub stack at Olivia Mentor. I will hope if you've gotten to this point, you've already purchased, read, checked out my book from the library. But if not, you can do that now. And a general thank you so much to everyone for just supporting me as I have promoted this book over the past year and years and just really always being the best. And that includes you, Becca. So thank you. Thank you, everyone. And good night. I'm on Instagram at Becca M. Freeman. And my newsletter is at Becca Freeman dot Substack dot com. And if you're not already subscribed, maybe do that because I think there's some book news coming soon. and we will see you next week for I don't remember what, but it's going to be great. We'll be there. Bye. Bye.