Wagner Moura

Have you ever experienced some divine power? There's some moments on the stage that there is a connection. Something happens. It's like there's something going on that's not from these. Between you, the audience, the third thing that becomes your connection. And the third thing. Yes, the third thing. Exactly. That it's divine. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and flip one back on me. My guest this week is Wagner Moura. There were moments where I was like, oh, I really need that money. Right. You know, but I'm like, I can't do this. I can't do that because otherwise I'll be miserable. After watching the Brazilian film The Secret Agent, I came away with a deeper appreciation for how much fear, resolve, and longing can be communicated through a person's eyes. Wagner Mora subtly conveys all those emotions as a man on the run in a military dictatorship. Yes, there are powerful moments of dialogue, but so much of Wagner's talent as a storyteller and an actor comes in what is left unsaid. How he uses the negative space to make us feel and to make us think. I am so very happy to welcome Wagner Mora to Wildcard. Hi. That was a thoughtful introduction. Thank you. Well, I'm very pleased to have you here, and many congratulations are in order because the film itself has been nominated for several Academy Awards, and you yourself have been nominated, the first Brazilian male actor to be nominated in the Best Acting category for this film. Congrats! Thank you. Thank you so much. We're very happy. Well, we'll talk more about the movie in a few minutes, but we're just going to go. You ready to play this game? Yes, I am. I'm excited about it. Let's do it. Let's try it out. First three cards, Wagner, you pick one, two, or three. Three. Three. That's this one. What did your parents teach you to love? Elderly people. Elderly people. Yeah. He was, my parents were very serious in like that we should always respect people that were older than we were, you know. And that ended up translating to me, like, for what I do, like, the admiration and respect that I have for actors, especially in Brazil, that opened space for younger actors, you know, like, in terms of, like, work opportunities. And it was hard to be an actor back in the beginning of the 20th century. Right. So every time I meet up an actor that's like in their 85, 90s right now, I know there is a reverence that I have towards these people. That it's, yeah, that's very important to me. Who was the elder person who they made sure you had connection with? Like, can you think of a person who? Oh, yeah. There was this director that I worked with who was such an important person, theater director. such an important person in my life as an artist. Unfortunately, he passed two, three years ago. His name is Aderbal Freire Filho. Theater directors, it's interesting because they have these amazing careers, but their work as it's theater, it disappears. If you go to the theater and you see a play, it's going to be in your memory and in your heart, and it's going to be there forever. But it's not recorded. It's not like movies that you can, oh, let's go and see the work of that director. Theater directors, like their art just burns. Ephemeral. It's ephemeral. He directed when I played Hamlet in Brazil. He was the director. And that was such a pivotal moment of my life. We've worked together many other times. But this one is very special. Like he gave me so many. And I was hanging out with him. Exactly, like to hang out with someone. We would go out, like just the two of us. He was like I was in my 30s back then, and he was, I guess, 79, 80. And we would go to bars and talk and spend the night together drinking and talking live. And I really, really miss him. I love that. Okay, three new cards. Three different cards. You pick again, one, two, or three. Two. Two. Hmm. Similar but different. What's something someone told you that changed your trajectory? I don't think it's something that someone told me, But I think that in the last three or four years, the universe was sort of telling me to just to relax, you know, because we are all ambitious and we all have plans and we all have goals and we all have. But at some point, I think I wish I had more time to have joy. And did you feel that you were— To feel joy in my daily life. And I think that at some point—and to have joy, especially in this thing that I do, it's so important. because sometimes we forget about the joy of it all, you know, the joy of doing what we do, and it became like a pragmatic thing. You know, I was watching a couple of years ago the documentary about the Beatles, you know, the one that Peter Jackson directed, and they were like, oh, they were fighting, and it was like horrible. Everything was not going well, and one of them was about to leave the band, I think it was George. But when they played together, they had so much fun and joy. And they were messing around with the music, and they were playing, and they were looking at each other, and they were laughing, and they were having fun. I've been telling myself, like, just, yeah, have fun. Enjoy. You know, enjoy each moment of your life. Like, it's here. I'm here with you. and let's enjoy this moment. It's hard, though. I imagine in your creative work, too, you get momentum, right? Like, and people are like, oh, you've caught fire now. And so now more projects are going to come and more directors come to you and the scripts get better and better and your choices get better. And if you don't keep moving, right, like a shark in the water, like you've got to keep moving and taking the opportunities. Or else, oh, no, Wagner, they're going to go away. You've got to act now. Do you feel those kinds of pressures? Is it hard to say no? I felt that before. It's interesting because I have felt that before with other things because I've been doing this since I was 15. For example, when I did Narcos, it was a thing and everybody was like, you should do it. But I always, I have to say, always rejected that kind of thought. I always kind of did the opposite of what was expected. Like now, for example, I'm going to go to Brazil. I'm going to do a very independent film there. After that, I'm going to tour with my play in Europe. I'm going to be doing theater. And then in the end of the year, I'm going to direct my film, also a very small independent film. That doesn't mean that I'm not aware of the new possibilities are coming because of the moment. But they're not going to go away. And you're going to center joy in all these projects, right? And you're not going to work too hard. And I'm going to privilege joy. Yeah. And to do what I want to do, what I feel, not what I expected for one to do, but what you want to do. Last one in this memories round. One, two, or three. One. One. What's an early experience of appreciating beauty? I remember when I was coming back. I lived in this very small town in Brazil. And I think I was already like 15. And I woke up at night. And I don't know why. It was like 3 in the morning. I skipped through the window of my bedroom. And I don't know exactly why. I started to walk around the city by myself. I was walking, walking, until the day started to, the sun started to shine. And I was by myself. I was alone. And I could see the sun. I could see the light changing over me. And I could see to look at the sky. There were some stars of red still there. But I could see, like, the curve somehow, the curve of the earth. I don't know how. I could see, like, the curve of the atmosphere. I don't know what it was. You know, it was a— It sounds like a vaguely mystical experience. Mystical experience. And I was by myself. Yeah. I felt a very strong feeling of happiness and connection to the universe. Which is a beautiful thing to happen, especially at a young age. And I was a kid, exactly. And I also felt that, oh, there was so much ahead of me. Yeah. You know, like I'm going to, you know, I'm still, I don't know, I think I was, I don't know, 13, 14. I don't remember, but there's so much ahead of me. Yeah. You know, I'm going to live for so long. You know, and... Ah, huge. It's also true that it passes real fast. It passes so fast. That feels like not as long time ago Yeah Sometimes I still feel that I still have 13 years old Hey, everybody. Ever since we launched Wildcard, there is one thing that you have asked about more than anything else. Where can I get the Wildcard deck? We hear it constantly. You've been very patient, and I'm so excited to finally announce that it is here. The Wildcard Deck, it's available at the NPR shop. You can find it at shopnpr.org. And we've selected some of our very favorite questions from the show and we made this custom deck for you, our audience. It is just a phenomenal way to think about your own memories, insights and beliefs over dinner with the family, maybe on a road trip with friends. It's a way to connect and learn new things about people you were just meeting or people you have known all of your life. Check it out. At shopnpr.org, we are so excited for you to try it out. Again, shopnpr.org. Let's talk more about the movie. Yeah. The Secret Agent, I understand this was a project that actually was a long time coming, right? A collaboration with the director. The two of you have been working on this script for a while. Can you tell me kind of the genesis of it? Yeah, the genesis. I met him a long time ago. I met him in Cannes. He used to be a critic back then. But we hit it off in a festival because we are also from the same region. Receive him from Salvador, both cities from the northeast of Brazil. I'm going to misstate his name, so I was hoping you would just do it, but I'll try. Kleber Mendoza Filho? Mendoza. Mendoza. Can you just say it for me? Yeah. Kleber Mendoza Filho. Yeah. Yeah. But you did a pretty good job. And I met him, and I was like, dude, I want to work with you. And then he invited me to be in his film, Bacurau, that he directed in 2018. But I couldn't be in it because I was directing my own film. And so we created this. And we were both always very—so we—Claver and I, we are very different people. But we see Brazil and we see the role of an artist in a very similar way. We think that art and politics, they are not separated. But this film is openly a political film because it comes from our shared perplexity over what was going on in Brazil from 2018 to 2022 when Brazil elected democratically a fascist president. And we were both very vocal against him, and we both suffered the consequences of that. So I think that the secret agent came from that, from like, how can we, we wanted to work together, we wanted to do something together. And so it's like the film about this man that is sticking with the values that he has when everything around him is saying the opposite. It felt something that related a lot, resonated a lot with Clubber and I. Right. Your main character is living and running from this military dictatorship that has, you know, as military dictatorships do. They've got a war on truth. They're issuing propaganda left and right. There's corruption rampant. And your character is just trying to live a life and survive, really. But it's interesting. You mentioned the 2019 movie that you did and that was very critical of the Brazilian government at the time. That could have cowed you. You could have absorbed all that criticism coming from pretty high up in Brazil and separated yourself and said, I've learned my lesson. I'm not going to touch that third rail anymore. And instead you decided to lean in. Was it an easy decision for you or was there a moment of pause like maybe this isn't how I'm going to make the most impact? No, it was a very organic decision for me because I was making a film about – the film is called Marighella and it's about the leader of the armed resistance in Brazil against the dictatorship. And that film that I directed and was censored by Bolsonaro and all that. And I couldn't, I mean, how could I be doing a film about a freedom fighter, you know, and not to fight for that film to be released and to, you know, to have a proper release in the country? So I engaged in that fight with lots of energy. It was hard, you know, because, you know, it's this polarization is just really hard. It's really hard. It's really difficult because people are living in different mental states. That's what's separating us. It's like we are not living in the same world. We are not seeing reality in the same way. Right. The hardest thing for me when I engaged in that fight against the government in Brazil to have my film released and against the government itself and against everything that that government represented, it was hard. But the hardest thing was because I felt that we were not talking the same language, that we are not talking about the same reality. Which is, it comes through in the way that you play this character, Armando, because you see him struggling to make sense of something that's not sensible. The facts on the ground don't matter anymore. As a viewer, you sort of see for him how words fail ultimately. Like it's not going to make a difference. And then he's just trying to survive. Yeah. I think this is also a film about infamy, you know, because it's how he was treated and how, and we shouldn't give any spoilers here, but the way he's treated in the end of the film and the way it's displayed who he was, you know, in the newspaper, it's so unfair. unfair and so, and that happens so often, you know, like right now when the government and people are trying to discredit the man, I forgot his name, that got killed, the nurse. Alex Petty. Yeah, so they start all this campaign against him, like saying people are inventing lies about his life and it's so cruel because you kill him twice. You killed him, and then you try to kill his reputation. You try to kill his memory. That is a grim parallel that I hadn't thought of with your film. Yeah, but that's how fascism works, unfortunately. And sometimes I get scared because as a Brazilian, I can see those signals very clearly because I've been, I come from a country that we had, unfortunately, not only one, but some dictatorships, you know, a history of coup d'etats and authoritarian regimes. So it's crazy how the signals are the same throughout history, you know. I want to just acknowledge you mentioned your role as Pablo Escobar in Narcos earlier. And, I mean, this was a huge show. This was a huge role for you. And I read several times in preparing for this conversation that you came out of that experience and you were very grateful for it. But you were not going to take roles that reinforced Latin stereotypes. Yeah. And I imagine you had a lot of other similar offers because people are constrained by their imagination. People are not imaginative. And they were like, oh, this is what Wagner does. He does this so well. That works. Let's just keep casting him there. Let's keep casting him there. That's how it works everywhere, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so it must feel all the sweeter to have achieved this Oscar nomination not having done that. Yeah, exactly. I think that's the main thing for me is like I really – I like to think that I was always very coherent with what I thought it was artistically. That was all that always mattered to me. Even when I – there were moments that were like, oh, I really need that money, man. Right. You know, but I'm like, I can't do this. Yeah. I can't do that because otherwise I'll be miserable. You know, I'll feel – So it feels good to look back and go like, I thank God you didn't bend. Yeah, it feels coherent. It feels good. Good. Well, congratulations again. Let's play more game. Round two. Insights. Three new cards. One, two, or three. And they're blue now too. They're blue. Okay. Yeah. What's a sound that instantly puts you at ease? Yesterday, I'm not very used to cats, right? Like I'm a dog guy and I love, we have a cat and a dog. And the dog is like already eight and I love him. It's like a most beautiful little thing. And the cat showed up like a year ago because of my kid. And I'm not getting, cats don't care about, you know, the whole thing about cats. I got it, yeah, yeah. They don't really care about you. I'm not a cat person. And they stay, you know, you call them, they don't come. But yesterday, I was upset about something. I was sad about something that had happened. And I laid on my sofa in my living room And the cat came and he literally like lay down all over my chest like that, and started to do that purring thing. Yeah, yeah. And that was so therapeutic. I felt like a connection between us. Yeah. And I was so grateful for him. I think he was really like, hey, let me share some energy with you. I don't know what he was. And I was looking at him. And in my mind, I closed my eyes and was like, thank you, man. Thanks for doing this. And he was purring. And that little noise is so nice to hear. Yeah. And he stayed there for a moment, like for a good like 20 minutes. And then he stood up and went away. And I was like, that's, it created a connection to that cat that I didn't have before. But every time I see him now, I was like, hey, man, thanks for that. We had that. Also, as you were describing it, I was feeling not just the sound and how comforting that is, but the weight and the reverberation of the sound through the cat's body on you. What a... Yeah. He was just... He was giving you... Our bodies together. And it was warm. Yeah. You know? And it was a cold day and it was very warm. Yeah. My chest was warm. And he sensed it. And we were exchanging energy. I thought, you know. For sure. Because I realized that there was something happening. I was like, I'm going to send him good energy, too. So it was like a very interesting and cool moment. So now you're cool with him, the cat. Oh, we're great. We're great now. I see him now and go like, hey, what's up, man? You're cool. Go just do your thing. What's his name, by the way? Evie, because we thought he was a girl when we got him. So he has this girl's name. Yeah. Gender's a construct. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. Well, I'm really glad to give Evie his moment. Okay, three more cards. One, two, or three. Three. What's a disappointing experience that now feels like a blessing? You know, I like to write scripts, right? Like I work on the scripts that I direct. And always, always when I'm working on a character, a character really wants something. Like a character always have a drive and wants something. And always, like always, what he wants, it's not what he needs. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Usually a character wants something, but he needs something else. And the beautiful part of any character as a curve is when the character realizes that. Like, oh, that's not what I need. That's what I wanted. And I don't know. I think I've been around this thing for so many years, too, to understand that, like, sometimes when you relax, that's when things happen to you. Because you go through so many. As an actor, it's like so, so full of ups and downs, your career. I don't even like to say career because it's my life. Can you give me an example of a moment in your life when you felt that more acutely? During the pandemic, because I just moved to the West for many reasons. But one of them was like to, because my agent was like, you should be here. You should be more in Los Angeles. In Los Angeles, I just moved to LA and then the pandemic hit. And then I was not really doing what I was supposed to be doing here, which is like to be, you know, connecting, working. But then the pandemic gave me a relationship with my family that I had never had before. You know, I spent time with them in a way that I had never done it before. I could look at each one of them separately and spend time with them separately and really listen to them because we had all the time in the world. Yeah. And that was very special for me. Yeah. How old were your kids at the time? At the time, I don't know. Like, were you trying to do virtual school at the same time? Yeah, which was, oh, my God. Do you have kids? Good for you for finding moments of joy through that. Oh, my God. That was hard. That was so hard. Poor kids. One of my kids were doing the things in his pajamas and his, you know, in the blankets like this. And I was like, what are you doing, man? This is school. Oh, I know. And I was like, no, it's not. And we would try to teach. Like, my kids don't want to hear anything from me. They don't want to take any instruction from me. It became painfully clear. That was not, like, a good dynamic during COVID. But if we could separate school and, like, really lean into what makes our family beautiful, then it was a lovely experience. But I wouldn't go back to COVID learning at all. How many kids do you have? I have two boys. They are 11 and 13. Oh, it's about the age of my mind. I have three boys. They are 19, 15, and 13. Ah, yeah. We're in it. That's a lot of dude energy in your house. I mean, I, yeah. That's a whole other conversation. It's a beautiful thing. Boys are a beautiful thing. Okay. One, two, or three. One. What have you found surprising about getting older? That my body is not the same. You know, that I do jujitsu, for example. Ah, do you? Yeah, Brazilian jujitsu is my sport and the thing that I love. and I've been doing this since I was in my 20s. And it kind of sucks when I go and I have to train with a 20-year-old kid and I see that that kid has more strength, is faster, is, you know, is more full of energy than I am. And then I have to come up with, okay, I have to come up with a plan to roll with that kid as a 50-year-old man. How can I make him tired? How can I do some Jedi mind tricks? How can I wait for him to make a mistake? Because I can't really match the energy that a kid like that has. And that is a little like, oh, that sucks. But also, I feel that I'm a better person now, a better human being now than I was. Not that I was a bad kid, but when I was 20, I don't know how I was all over the place. But I think it's good to... Say more about that. I like myself. Say more about that. I like myself a lot. Yeah. And I'm not ashamed of saying that. I like who I am. I'm happy with the kind of person that I am and the things that I have to work on. I'm aware of it and I'm working on it. But I feel more secure and calm and aware of what are the things that really matter in life, I guess. Yeah. Approaching 50 will do that to you. I guess so, right? Like, yeah, it's like what's important, what's not that important. What's important, but it's okay if it doesn't happen, you know? Beliefs. First question. One, two, or three? One. Have you ever experienced some divine power? yeah i think so i just i you know i'm not i listen i i don't believe in god i'm not like but i grew up like in many my grandmother was very catholic and brazil is a very catholic country my parents were spiritualists you know that they had like relationship that they did You know, they were, like, having these experiences with, you know, with deceased people through, like, mediums and all that. So I grew up seeing this thing. And in Brazil, from where I come from, there was this Afro-Brazilian religion that's really powerful, beautiful, culturally extraordinary, called Candomblé, which I love. And I see it as a cultural beauty. And also I can see the energies going on. And Hamlet has this phrase that he says, like, there are more things beyond heaven and earth than we could, you know, that our brains can't, something like that cannot, that our philosophy can't even dream, something like that. And I truly believe in these things. And, yes, I've experienced things, you know, like the things that I— Can you tell me something that felt close? I was just doing theater in my hometown, Salvador, three, four months ago. And it's not all the time, but there is one moment, there's some moments on the stage that there is a connection. Something happens. You know something happens there and many artists will say like this and it not always but there is a moment that like oh it like there something going on that not from these Between you, the audience, the third thing that becomes your connection. And the third thing. Yes, the third thing. Exactly. It's me, it's an actor, the audience, and this third thing, whatever that is, that it's divine. Yeah. There are things going on for sure. There are things going on. There are things going on. Everywhere. All the dimensions, I don't know what it is. Three more. One, two, or three. Yeah. Is there anything in your life that feels like praying? Well, I think theater is a, you know, I think I see many similarities between the liturgy of theater and of some religions, especially Catholic religion, I think that when a play starts, you're commanding some sort of ritual there because you're saying those same words every day but differently. You know, like as a priest would go up there and say parts of the Bible or there is a liturgy where he, you know, I don't know, Like he holds the cross and he takes the wine and he gives the – I think that this – The sacrament. Yeah, the sacrament. The sacrament. When you repeat a gesture and you repeat an action for many, many, many, many, many times, those actions, they gain meaning and they gain like – The ritual of it creates things. The ritual. The ritual. It can change. It can change throughout time, and your perception of the ritual can change, but it's meaningful. And you find different meanings of it, but it's... When you're practicing that, when you were doing theater, and you were repeating lines night after night in this way that becomes like a meditation, like a prayer, does it help or hinder your effort at acting? Like, does it get harder because the words take on this different meaning or does it get easier? It gets amazing. It gets like, it's like, because it's interesting because you feel like, oh, it's the same word. So it's going to be the same thing. No, every day is different because every day you discover something different to those things. every day you're like, and your colleague is going to throw something different to you. That's the beauty of acting. For me, that's the most valuable thing about acting. You know, if acting was something that was stiff and you were supposed to be there and say these things and go back home, I wouldn't like to be doing that. That's why it's hard for me when I work with directors or actors that stick with, they think that a scene should be, this is how the scene should be. And they want the scene to be exactly how they thought. And they lose the opportunity of going to so many different directions. Each single take can be different. It's depending on how the other actor looked at you or said something. Or you yourself discovered something else when you're saying those words. And it's the most beautiful and exciting thing about acting, I think. It's like how, yeah, how electric it can be when you're like, it's not the same. It's the same words, but it's different. And if you're not opening yourself up to that possibility, then the spiritual component of it is lost on you and the audience. And then that gift is never given. That gift is never delivered. That's exactly right. So that, that exactly, that spiritual component goes away because then it's just like, you know, yeah. Last one, Wagner. One, two, or three? Three. Three. How often do you think about death? Not often. I feel that I'm going to die really, really old. I think I'm going to get, I want to be at least 100. Yeah. So I think it's a nice number. Yes. Round. Yeah. Round. Three digits. I'm into it. Yeah. And I don't want to romanticize that moment. But therefore, I don't think about that often. But I want to, of course, I want to die, you know, feeling good about the life that I lived. And we have to understand, like, this is the only certainty that we all have. Right. Is that we all are going to die. It's going to happen. And somehow we should be grateful for that, you know, because that's what gives meaning to our lives. Exactly. You know, if we lived forever, that would kind of suck, you know, because you wouldn't like you wouldn't. How are you going to live your life in full if you knew that there were. We need these limitations. We need these limitations. We do for all kinds of reasons. Much has been written on this. Yeah. You have to have some kind of finite nature to the thing to create meaning. But I don't know if I want to go to 100. It's interesting. I don't know. It depends on what that 100 looks like. It depends. It looks like, for sure. I don't want to be like, listen, I don't want to get sick. I was just talking to some friends yesterday. I have a friend that he discovered early symptoms of Alzheimer. Yeah. And he went to the Netherlands and he did the assistant death thing. You know what I'm talking about? Physician-assisted death. The physician-assisted death. Yeah, he ended his life. And I respected that so much. And his husband was totally on board with that. And he went there and he did it. He was like, I don't want to live my life not remembering anything, not knowing who my people are. I mean, of course, it's like, of course, I want to know how that. But when I mentalize and when I foresee that 100-year-old, I see myself in good shape for a 100-year-old guy. I mean, you got the jujitsu, but you got to keep working. I want to keep working. I want to keep, I can't, I don't want to stop working. I want to work till the last, the last, my last days. Yeah. We end our show the same way every time. With a trip in our memory time machine. In the time machine, you go back and revisit one moment from your past. It's not a moment you would change anything about. It's just a moment that you'd like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose? That's when my first kid was born. My first son, Bam. Because that was another mystical experience. That was a moment. That was a divine. That was one of the things that I liked. And it was difficult because it was difficult. I was traveling. I had to, I took an airplane, and my wife was in, you know, she was like, you have to come. And it was very stressful, and I got there, and, you know, and she was in, it was very, and when he finally, when I finally was able to grab him and to see him and to see that he was okay, and to heaven like in my chest like that, it was, I don't know. I don't know. That was, how can you describe that feeling? I don't know. You know, it's like it was very, I would linger. I would do everything to do just to feel that again. I don't think I'll ever have other kids. and you see your kids growing up and it's beautiful because they're like, you see each moment of their life, but sometimes they're like, oh, I miss those little things. And also, if you give me another one, I would go back to the last conversation I had with my dad, you know, before he passed. It's interesting, right? Like death and birth, you know, the birth of a son. and the deaths of a parent, those were the moments that I would be going back to. Wagner Moura, you can see him in the Oscar-nominated film The Secret Agent. it was such a pleasure thank you it was such a pleasure thank you very much if you liked this episode check out my conversation with Padma Lakshmi like Wagner Padma talked about the joy that can come with aging and how she feels more confident in middle age than she has at any other point in her life you can watch that conversation with Padma Lakshmi along with this one with Wagner Mura or any of our recent conversations on our YouTube channel. Just search for at NPR Wildcard. Today's episode was produced by Annabelle Edwards and Summer Tamad. It was edited by Dave Blanchard, mastered by Becky Brown. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangueni, and our theme music is by Ramteen Arablewe. Reach out to us, why don't you? At wildcard at npr.org. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then. Bye.